WEBVTT - All About Psychics 0:00:15.422 --> 0:00:15.942 Pushkin. 0:00:20.342 --> 0:00:25.022 Hi, it's Lucy. This is a bonus episode of Where's Dea, 0:00:25.622 --> 0:00:28.022 So if you haven't listened to the series yet, please 0:00:28.142 --> 0:00:32.262 listen to that first, because our episode today is diving 0:00:32.302 --> 0:00:35.182 into one of the more polarizing elements of the story, 0:00:36.262 --> 0:00:43.222 the use of psychics in criminal investigations. While I reported 0:00:43.222 --> 0:00:46.862 on the case of Dea Abrams, I found myself trying 0:00:46.902 --> 0:00:51.302 to make sense of whether psychics are actually utilized in investigations, 0:00:51.942 --> 0:00:56.142 and if so, whether they are actually helpful. I know 0:00:56.262 --> 0:00:58.622 this part of the story was a sticking point for 0:00:58.662 --> 0:01:00.622 a lot of you, and it's something I've been doing 0:01:00.662 --> 0:01:05.782 more digging on since we released our last episode. You 0:01:05.862 --> 0:01:10.582 might remember that Keith Harper, DEA's boyfriend, enlisted the help 0:01:10.622 --> 0:01:14.822 of an organization called find Me to help him locate Dea. 0:01:15.782 --> 0:01:20.702 Find Me was founded by ex DEA agent Kelly Snyder, 0:01:21.342 --> 0:01:25.582 and relies on information from psychics to find missing people. 0:01:26.702 --> 0:01:29.662 Harper first learned about find Me and Kelly Snyder because 0:01:29.662 --> 0:01:34.662 of another missing person's case back in twenty twelve. A 0:01:34.702 --> 0:01:38.542 thirteen year old named Dylan red Wine disappeared while he 0:01:38.622 --> 0:01:43.102 was visiting his dad, who lived in Colorado. My producer 0:01:43.222 --> 0:01:46.462 Jacob spoke with Kelly and Harper about the Dylan red 0:01:46.502 --> 0:01:49.902 Wine case while they searched for Dea at Lake Hennett. 0:01:50.062 --> 0:01:52.102 He saw the case that we worked and we found 0:01:52.142 --> 0:01:55.902 the guy, or found the kid, and the psychics actually 0:01:55.982 --> 0:01:57.782 told us who killed him? 0:01:58.062 --> 0:02:02.462 What was the outcome there was there arrestmaker. 0:02:02.582 --> 0:02:05.862 Oh yeah, it was the father killed him. It was 0:02:05.902 --> 0:02:08.862 a big divorce and the kid hated the father and 0:02:08.902 --> 0:02:11.702 the court forced him to go there on a visitation 0:02:13.302 --> 0:02:16.862 and end result was he killed him. How did you 0:02:16.902 --> 0:02:20.822 find the general area? A psychice told us where to go? 0:02:21.862 --> 0:02:26.942 We went there and literally the guy who was in 0:02:27.062 --> 0:02:29.622 charge of the investigation wanted us to go to the 0:02:29.662 --> 0:02:34.022 twelve thousand foot level and work our way down, which 0:02:34.062 --> 0:02:37.622 we did, but no one indicated that the kid was 0:02:37.702 --> 0:02:41.742 up that high, and then went down to where our 0:02:41.782 --> 0:02:45.782 psychic said that we may find him. And then the 0:02:45.822 --> 0:02:48.662 team went in and Kiki was the name of the 0:02:48.702 --> 0:02:52.382 dog that found him, found him within about twenty minutes 0:02:52.422 --> 0:03:01.582 after going into the woods. And twenty minutes yeah, so yes. 0:03:02.222 --> 0:03:04.902 According to Kelly, the psychic was the one to point 0:03:04.902 --> 0:03:07.662 them in the right direction, and then the search dog 0:03:07.862 --> 0:03:11.062 did the rest of the work. The whole thing turned 0:03:11.102 --> 0:03:13.662 into a bit of a circus, with a ton of 0:03:13.702 --> 0:03:17.542 press coverage and at least a few articles which did 0:03:17.622 --> 0:03:22.742 mention that investigators followed tips from psychics and mediums. Mark 0:03:22.982 --> 0:03:26.942 Dylan's father was eventually arrested, and in twenty twenty one, 0:03:27.342 --> 0:03:30.942 he was found guilty of murdering Dylan and sentenced to 0:03:31.062 --> 0:03:35.582 forty eight years in prison. Reading about the case made 0:03:35.582 --> 0:03:39.022 me understand the appeal of how Kelly works, and Harper 0:03:39.102 --> 0:03:40.342 clearly felt the same way. 0:03:40.822 --> 0:03:42.862 Nobody had a clue where he was. 0:03:42.942 --> 0:03:44.062 Searches were done. 0:03:46.862 --> 0:03:50.062 He just like he disappeared into thin air, and then 0:03:50.422 --> 0:03:54.622 Kelly comes in and within days solves the damn case. 0:03:55.342 --> 0:03:55.542 Yeah. 0:03:57.422 --> 0:03:59.742 Well, I'll take credit for it, but it's actually the 0:03:59.782 --> 0:04:04.822 dogs and the psychics. The forty five million dollar reward 0:04:04.982 --> 0:04:06.222 was worth it. 0:04:07.822 --> 0:04:13.822 Yeah, I got forty five dollars. Solve it today. 0:04:15.062 --> 0:04:19.822 Quick disclaimer here, we couldn't corroborate if Kelly's psychics actually 0:04:19.862 --> 0:04:24.302 contributed to Dylan's case. One news article did mention cops 0:04:24.382 --> 0:04:28.382 received tips from psychics, but only said that quote as 0:04:28.422 --> 0:04:31.702 a matter of due diligence, law enforcement had to follow 0:04:31.782 --> 0:04:34.622 up on many of them, and then another local news 0:04:34.702 --> 0:04:37.182 story said that Dylan was found thanks to hours of 0:04:37.222 --> 0:04:41.662 police manpower, not some psychic tip off. But there is 0:04:41.822 --> 0:04:45.342 a testimonial on the find me website from a sergeant 0:04:45.382 --> 0:04:48.582 investigator on the case. He thanked find me for their 0:04:48.622 --> 0:04:52.902 help with searchers and wrote we are forever in their debt. 0:04:57.142 --> 0:05:00.022 All of this made me more curious about how psychics 0:05:00.062 --> 0:05:03.382 work with law enforcement and whether their work has any merit. 0:05:04.142 --> 0:05:07.262 So in this episode, I'm asking a psychic and a 0:05:07.302 --> 0:05:15.022 police psychologist about that. I'm Lucy Sheriff, and this is 0:05:15.062 --> 0:05:37.822 Where's Deer. Today's episode all about psychics. We're going to 0:05:37.902 --> 0:05:41.182 hear from a police psychologist in a bit, but let's 0:05:41.222 --> 0:05:45.182 start with the psychic he actually worked on DEA's case. 0:05:45.702 --> 0:05:49.302 Psychics look like everyday people. I mean people are usually 0:05:49.342 --> 0:05:50.302 shocked when they find. 0:05:50.102 --> 0:05:50.702 Out what I do. 0:05:51.462 --> 0:05:55.662 This is Dave Campbell. He's based in Arizona, and the 0:05:55.742 --> 0:05:58.102 first thing I learned while talking with him is that 0:05:58.142 --> 0:06:00.982 in addition to being a psychic, he has a few 0:06:00.982 --> 0:06:02.182 other skills too. 0:06:02.782 --> 0:06:05.542 Well, so a hypnotherapist. They talk to people when they sleep. 0:06:05.582 --> 0:06:10.302 I talk to dead people. Wow, all kinds of fun stuff. 0:06:11.422 --> 0:06:15.182 And then I'm also as an astrologer and I also 0:06:15.182 --> 0:06:18.782 wrote the book called Forensic Astrology, which is solving crimes 0:06:18.902 --> 0:06:25.902 using astrology, which works amazingly and synchronistically. If people have 0:06:26.062 --> 0:06:28.022 no clue what that is either they think it's just 0:06:28.142 --> 0:06:30.862 sunfighting astrology, and I'm saying, oh, the pastis did it? 0:06:31.022 --> 0:06:35.222 No, No, that's not it. We like to blame pass 0:06:35.382 --> 0:06:36.502 for everything anything, So. 0:06:36.742 --> 0:06:39.302 I'm of Icy's moon, so I can half take offense 0:06:39.342 --> 0:06:39.582 to that. 0:06:42.542 --> 0:06:45.022 Dave has been working with fire Me for years and, 0:06:45.182 --> 0:06:48.822 like I said before, contributed to DIA's case, so I 0:06:48.902 --> 0:06:54.462 wanted to hear about his experience and process. I would 0:06:54.502 --> 0:06:57.302 love to hear how you got involved with Kelly Snyder, 0:06:57.342 --> 0:07:01.782 like how you met him, because the funny thing about him, 0:07:01.782 --> 0:07:05.862 it's like he is like the most unlikely person that 0:07:06.022 --> 0:07:10.302 would be working with psychics, Like he's grasp She's like 0:07:10.302 --> 0:07:12.742 like just me and potatoes. 0:07:12.782 --> 0:07:12.982 Guy. 0:07:13.942 --> 0:07:15.902 I was like, well, who are you yourself? 0:07:16.142 --> 0:07:16.502 Yes? 0:07:16.902 --> 0:07:22.382 And a retired DEA agent. Yeah yeah, not You're typical. 0:07:22.542 --> 0:07:28.102 So it's really synchronistic too, because during my schooling with 0:07:28.142 --> 0:07:31.902 the astrology, my teacher really always liked to do mystery charts, 0:07:31.982 --> 0:07:35.542 and I was solve crimes or figure out who murdered 0:07:35.542 --> 0:07:38.502 who or where's this personnet? Are they alive or dead? 0:07:38.542 --> 0:07:41.662 And so to bring in district attorneys that were working 0:07:41.702 --> 0:07:45.022 on case and give us a bunch of cases just 0:07:45.062 --> 0:07:47.622 with their charts, and we would amaze them with what 0:07:47.662 --> 0:07:50.102 we could come up with. And so I started thinking, 0:07:50.142 --> 0:07:53.582 you know, this really works, and so I just went 0:07:53.662 --> 0:07:55.422 further and further and then did it on my own. 0:07:55.462 --> 0:07:57.302 And I thought, how can I get in touch with 0:07:58.022 --> 0:07:59.582 and just put it out there in the universe. And 0:07:59.622 --> 0:08:02.702 then so one of my other friends said that she 0:08:03.542 --> 0:08:06.022 was taking the same astrology class that she just found 0:08:06.102 --> 0:08:11.222 this retired DEA agent who was helping find missing children 0:08:11.222 --> 0:08:13.102 and what I wanted to join with her because she 0:08:13.182 --> 0:08:16.262 knew I was interested. And I'm like, oh yeah, so 0:08:16.542 --> 0:08:19.102 it kind of found me. I put it out there 0:08:19.102 --> 0:08:22.902 and it found me synchronistically, and that was like two 0:08:22.942 --> 0:08:26.102 thousand or two thousand and one. Well, I've been with 0:08:26.222 --> 0:08:28.902 Kelly ever since. So it's been a long time and 0:08:28.942 --> 0:08:31.182 I've worked on I don't even know how many cases. 0:08:31.502 --> 0:08:32.462 And how does it work. 0:08:32.502 --> 0:08:36.302 Does he put out a call and then you guys 0:08:36.502 --> 0:08:38.222 kind of decide whether you want to help. 0:08:39.342 --> 0:08:39.902 Yeah, we. 0:08:41.302 --> 0:08:44.382 Each case, he sends it to all of us and 0:08:44.582 --> 0:08:47.182 we all just return it in what we get within 0:08:47.222 --> 0:08:50.142 a week. I try to do all of them as 0:08:50.222 --> 0:08:52.622 much as I can, Like sometimes I usually will meditate 0:08:52.662 --> 0:08:54.982 on it first. I'll read the story like what we 0:08:55.062 --> 0:08:57.662 do now, and we know very little. We usually just 0:08:57.702 --> 0:08:59.942 get like they were missing on this day they were 0:09:00.022 --> 0:09:05.182 last seen, and what's the circumstances what happened. So I 0:09:05.342 --> 0:09:08.062 usually will get their birth date, I'll do their chart 0:09:08.142 --> 0:09:10.542 the day they were missing, you know, put it all together, 0:09:10.702 --> 0:09:13.822 see what I can see. I start pulling in the 0:09:13.862 --> 0:09:16.982 information even then, you know, like as I say, oh, 0:09:17.022 --> 0:09:20.342 it looks like this is very bad, you know, and 0:09:20.462 --> 0:09:23.022 I can usually even then determine whether they're dead or not. 0:09:24.182 --> 0:09:26.542 And then I do a meditation. I ask them if 0:09:26.542 --> 0:09:29.022 they're in spirit, if they want to come and connect 0:09:29.022 --> 0:09:32.662 with me. Sometimes they will, and sometimes they will launch, 0:09:32.742 --> 0:09:36.302 and sometimes they refuse, which is because sometimes they don't 0:09:36.342 --> 0:09:38.702 want to be found right at the moment. So I 0:09:38.742 --> 0:09:40.422 do it day by day so I can keep getting 0:09:40.422 --> 0:09:44.742 more information, and then I'll do like a terror reading 0:09:44.782 --> 0:09:47.462 on it, and then I'll just do another psychic you know, 0:09:47.622 --> 0:09:50.982 try to get any information I can get, and then 0:09:51.062 --> 0:09:54.142 finally look at the charts and then usually I kind 0:09:54.142 --> 0:09:56.462 of all kind of a puzzle starts to come together. 0:09:57.302 --> 0:10:00.622 I never get paid to do any with a find 0:10:00.622 --> 0:10:04.182 me stuff, and I don't want to, you know, it's 0:10:04.222 --> 0:10:06.982 it's just what I do back for society and any 0:10:06.982 --> 0:10:09.302 police work I've ever done when they come. I mean 0:10:09.342 --> 0:10:12.422 I've had an independent police departments come to me too, 0:10:14.102 --> 0:10:14.942 I know recharge. 0:10:16.142 --> 0:10:18.942 So you worked on DA's case. 0:10:19.982 --> 0:10:22.342 Yes, I don't want to talk too much in detail 0:10:22.382 --> 0:10:24.622 about it, but I will say, you know, general things. 0:10:24.662 --> 0:10:28.822 I have really reluctance to talk about personal cases because 0:10:28.862 --> 0:10:31.302 if there's still any open ended to it, or it's 0:10:31.342 --> 0:10:35.222 not solved and put to bed in prison time you 0:10:35.262 --> 0:10:37.462 can I mean, I've been stocked and almost killed before, 0:10:37.502 --> 0:10:40.422 so I don't want that to happen. Yeah, not my 0:10:40.702 --> 0:10:45.062 favorite thing to do. So I'm really reluctant to say 0:10:45.222 --> 0:10:48.622 specifics on any case other than you know, unless I 0:10:48.662 --> 0:10:50.302 know it's can't come back. 0:10:52.662 --> 0:10:53.662 But I did work on it. 0:10:54.902 --> 0:10:58.662 Can you remember what I mean? 0:10:58.662 --> 0:11:01.342 The anyone I can think of is medium? What mediums 0:11:01.382 --> 0:11:05.182 you used to work on DA's case? Were you using cards? 0:11:05.182 --> 0:11:06.382 We're using astrology? 0:11:07.582 --> 0:11:09.582 I almost always use astrology. 0:11:12.022 --> 0:11:15.502 Almost every case, and then I don't always use terror 0:11:15.502 --> 0:11:18.502 but sometimes I do if I need more information or 0:11:18.542 --> 0:11:20.942 want more, or if I just get. 0:11:20.742 --> 0:11:23.862 Pulled to it. I always meditate. 0:11:23.942 --> 0:11:27.902 I always get psychic scept as well, and it usually 0:11:27.902 --> 0:11:30.622 even starts with the charts, and usually. 0:11:31.742 --> 0:11:34.182 If the even is better. 0:11:34.022 --> 0:11:35.822 Which I keep trying to tell people, if they would 0:11:35.822 --> 0:11:38.542 give me the birth time of the person, it's like 0:11:39.062 --> 0:11:43.662 nine day difference. It's like pleasy, hanzy information versus sharp, 0:11:43.702 --> 0:11:46.102 clear perceptive, like I know exactly this. 0:11:46.782 --> 0:11:49.862 Did you get a hard time of No, there's no 0:11:49.942 --> 0:11:52.062 time of birth. Why don't I try to find it? 0:11:52.542 --> 0:11:53.342 That would be awesome. 0:11:53.742 --> 0:11:54.422 I can find it. 0:11:54.542 --> 0:11:57.102 Yeah, okay, that would be very helpful. 0:11:57.902 --> 0:11:59.982 So yeah, like I say, I usually work on a 0:12:00.022 --> 0:12:03.262 case for usually about a week, and then once I've 0:12:03.262 --> 0:12:05.382 turned it in, I kind of let everything go. I've 0:12:05.382 --> 0:12:09.022 had to learn to do that otherwise are we bonkers? 0:12:09.262 --> 0:12:11.942 And I tried to let everything go in that even 0:12:12.022 --> 0:12:14.622 if it's not solved or whatever. I just you can't 0:12:14.622 --> 0:12:16.622 hang on to it unless it comes up again, and 0:12:16.742 --> 0:12:17.902 if he asks me, then I. 0:12:17.822 --> 0:12:25.502 Revisited going back to the astrology. I'm really fascinated how 0:12:25.582 --> 0:12:29.542 you use it to locate somebody or to find out 0:12:29.542 --> 0:12:30.622 what happened. 0:12:31.182 --> 0:12:35.822 Okay, so there's two different methods you can do profiling 0:12:35.942 --> 0:12:38.982 with it. I did a whole case study of serial 0:12:39.102 --> 0:12:42.022 killers charts, which was really crazy and fascinating to see 0:12:42.022 --> 0:12:44.342 if there was patterns, to see if I could tell 0:12:44.382 --> 0:12:47.462 why they did what they did. And there's similar patterns 0:12:47.462 --> 0:12:48.422 in almost all of them. 0:12:48.662 --> 0:12:51.102 Are they Is that why you made the no? 0:12:51.102 --> 0:12:51.222 No? 0:12:51.302 --> 0:12:51.702 I was just. 0:12:53.462 --> 0:12:55.942 Yeah. So the profiling is one thing. 0:12:55.982 --> 0:12:58.262 And then also the transit to the time of the 0:12:58.302 --> 0:13:01.582 planets of like, somebody gets killed, the day and time 0:13:01.622 --> 0:13:04.462 of that killing is a chart itself, and so I 0:13:04.582 --> 0:13:07.702 overlay it with the chart of the natal chart and 0:13:07.822 --> 0:13:11.222 see what was happening, it was triggering if if there 0:13:11.342 --> 0:13:15.182 was potential for you know, if it shows murder, it 0:13:15.222 --> 0:13:19.142 should then it'll be in the chart. Then if they 0:13:19.142 --> 0:13:22.862 give me suspects or if I can find, you know, suspects, 0:13:23.382 --> 0:13:26.662 I can do their natal chart and the transits for 0:13:26.702 --> 0:13:29.102 that day. Does it look like they were triggered to violence? 0:13:29.302 --> 0:13:31.662 If not, they probably didn't do it. But I also 0:13:31.742 --> 0:13:35.142 see if there was a violent combination between the two people. 0:13:35.342 --> 0:13:37.302 So I'm looking at a lot of different things, a 0:13:37.342 --> 0:13:38.862 lot of different charts together. 0:13:39.342 --> 0:13:42.222 And what like, what do you say to people who 0:13:42.262 --> 0:13:45.582 are skeptical about all of this, because obviously there's a 0:13:45.582 --> 0:13:48.462 lot of non believers out there. Do you kind of 0:13:48.502 --> 0:13:49.782 just strug them off or. 0:13:50.702 --> 0:13:53.302 I don't pay attention anymore? I don't really care. 0:13:53.622 --> 0:13:57.262 I mean, I've proved myself so many times, and I 0:13:57.262 --> 0:14:01.342 think the being scientifically tested really gave me confidence to like, 0:14:01.742 --> 0:14:04.022 you know, like I don't need to prove myself anymore. 0:14:04.062 --> 0:14:06.862 If you want to prove it to yourself, then come 0:14:06.902 --> 0:14:11.342 to get a reading. I actually have quite a few 0:14:11.502 --> 0:14:16.182 friends that are cops, so they come to me for readings, 0:14:16.582 --> 0:14:19.422 and I've had detectives come for readings I've had, you know, 0:14:19.542 --> 0:14:21.862 so they know I can do what I do. They 0:14:21.902 --> 0:14:24.742 come to my medium night and get you know, they'll 0:14:24.742 --> 0:14:28.462 bring their families. So yeah, I'm sure they don't talk 0:14:28.462 --> 0:14:31.942 about it too much. But it is really frustrating because 0:14:31.942 --> 0:14:35.662 some police departments refuse our answers. Even if we gave 0:14:35.662 --> 0:14:37.182 it to them and said this is where the body 0:14:37.222 --> 0:14:39.542 is or who did it, they won't take it. And 0:14:39.582 --> 0:14:41.502 I'm like, that's just crazy to me. 0:14:42.422 --> 0:14:46.702 Why do you think there's this reluctance to acknowledge the 0:14:46.822 --> 0:14:49.102 usefulness of psychics. 0:14:51.142 --> 0:14:55.222 I think that they partly it's ego like that they 0:14:55.262 --> 0:14:57.462 want to be the ones responsible, which is okay, and 0:14:57.902 --> 0:14:59.342 I think that the police do. 0:15:00.902 --> 0:15:02.622 They do fine. They do the actual work. 0:15:03.862 --> 0:15:06.462 We're just a tool that they could use a tool, 0:15:06.542 --> 0:15:08.942 and that's it. They still have to do all the 0:15:09.262 --> 0:15:13.742 please work and you know, due diligence and go be 0:15:13.902 --> 0:15:14.622 the ground. 0:15:16.022 --> 0:15:16.822 But I do think. 0:15:16.702 --> 0:15:18.982 They should use this a lot more than they do, 0:15:19.062 --> 0:15:21.342 and I would rather they do it sooner than later, 0:15:21.342 --> 0:15:23.942 because usually when later been a missing person means they're 0:15:23.942 --> 0:15:27.462 already passed ninety percent of the time in my case, 0:15:27.582 --> 0:15:30.542 so I would rather find them while they're still alive 0:15:30.702 --> 0:15:33.582 and could be saved, rather than when they've gone cold 0:15:33.622 --> 0:15:37.222 and can't figure it out and it's too late. 0:15:41.742 --> 0:15:45.142 I desperately want to believe Dave, but there's another side 0:15:45.142 --> 0:15:48.502 of me that still has questions. And until I can 0:15:48.542 --> 0:15:52.502 find a cop who will openly say, yes, we've used 0:15:52.542 --> 0:15:55.102 psychics to help as solve a murder or find a 0:15:55.142 --> 0:16:00.542 missing person, I think those questions will always remain. After 0:16:00.582 --> 0:16:04.462 the break. I speak with a researcher who conducted studies 0:16:04.462 --> 0:16:08.102 with psychics while she was at the Los Angeles Police Department. 0:16:09.262 --> 0:16:13.342 We found with the psychics did come up with some 0:16:13.542 --> 0:16:16.182 very interesting clueser information. 0:16:17.382 --> 0:16:18.302 We'll be right back. 0:16:37.982 --> 0:16:41.542 It's hard to say how seriously law enforcement listens to 0:16:41.582 --> 0:16:45.662 psychics like Dave. A lot of departments categorically say they 0:16:45.702 --> 0:16:49.982 don't use them, at least that's what I've read. The 0:16:50.062 --> 0:16:53.782 research on psychics and crime solving is also pretty sparse, 0:16:54.422 --> 0:16:57.382 but one study caught my eye, an older one from 0:16:57.502 --> 0:17:01.222 nineteen seventy nine. There was a collaboration between the Los 0:17:01.262 --> 0:17:06.142 Angeles Police Department and an associate professor at Los Angeles 0:17:06.222 --> 0:17:07.542 City College. 0:17:07.462 --> 0:17:11.342 Yeah, just for fan We'll do anything. People will cancer, 0:17:11.422 --> 0:17:15.902 will go to Mexico and eat grapefruit or whatever it is. 0:17:15.942 --> 0:17:19.262 I mean, people will try anything, and the police departments 0:17:19.342 --> 0:17:23.942 won't stop people from doing what they think they need 0:17:23.982 --> 0:17:27.342 to do as long as it doesn't interfere with the 0:17:27.382 --> 0:17:31.382 police worker or the investigation to get the job done. 0:17:31.422 --> 0:17:34.142 This is doctor Susan Sachs Clifford. 0:17:34.542 --> 0:17:38.902 I'm a licensed psychologist and a board certified in police 0:17:38.902 --> 0:17:42.662 and Public safety, and I spent fourteen years with LAPD 0:17:43.422 --> 0:17:46.142 in the beginning of my career, and then for many 0:17:46.222 --> 0:17:50.902 years I've had a private consulting business, consulting with law 0:17:50.982 --> 0:17:54.142 enforcement and public safety agencies, mostly on assessment. 0:17:55.062 --> 0:17:58.822 In the seventies, Susan was a staff psychologist with the LAPD, 0:17:59.582 --> 0:18:02.942 eager to put her knowledge of research design and evaluation 0:18:03.182 --> 0:18:06.262 to use, which is how she became involved in this 0:18:06.342 --> 0:18:07.702 study of psychics. 0:18:08.102 --> 0:18:13.342 At that time, a group of psychics approached LAPD and 0:18:13.382 --> 0:18:17.742 they had some credentials on and I don't recall their association, 0:18:18.222 --> 0:18:24.422 and we decided to do a well designed study on 0:18:24.542 --> 0:18:29.262 actual cases to see if they could provide information that 0:18:29.342 --> 0:18:34.502 would lead to the solution of crimes. LAPD was completely 0:18:34.542 --> 0:18:40.462 open to it, and we sat down with the representatives 0:18:40.502 --> 0:18:44.022 of the parapsychologists and designed a formal study. 0:18:44.862 --> 0:18:47.542 What do you think it was about the environment that 0:18:47.702 --> 0:18:50.822 made it right for this study? Do you think it 0:18:50.862 --> 0:18:53.262 was the fund that it was la Was it the seventies? 0:18:54.262 --> 0:18:59.102 You said the LAPD were open to it, which now sounds, 0:18:59.222 --> 0:19:01.542 you know, feel surprising to hear. 0:19:02.462 --> 0:19:06.302 Well, I think it would not be surprising, and I 0:19:06.302 --> 0:19:13.782 think that people have images of rigid approaches and rigid mindsets. 0:19:14.262 --> 0:19:18.942 But truthfully, if anything would work, it would be looked at. 0:19:19.142 --> 0:19:23.382 And I was new and young and had my credentials, 0:19:24.022 --> 0:19:27.582 and I don't remember if I brought it forward, or 0:19:27.582 --> 0:19:29.582 if they had brought it to me, but saying, well, 0:19:29.622 --> 0:19:32.182 let's you know, we're not going to shut down all 0:19:32.182 --> 0:19:35.102 these people that come forward, but we also can't invest 0:19:35.142 --> 0:19:39.942 a lot of time because we're really trying to get 0:19:39.942 --> 0:19:44.102 something done to solve these crimes. So let's take a 0:19:44.142 --> 0:19:48.542 look at it. You know, who knows. And I remember 0:19:48.622 --> 0:19:51.382 being very very happy to be able to do an 0:19:51.502 --> 0:19:56.222 actual research design, you know, and off we went. 0:19:57.462 --> 0:20:00.462 So can you explain the setup of the study and 0:20:00.582 --> 0:20:04.022 how did you decide what you were going to ask? 0:20:05.542 --> 0:20:08.582 The study was actually very interesting because, as I said, 0:20:08.622 --> 0:20:12.782 the parapsychologists had a lot of input. What we decided 0:20:12.942 --> 0:20:15.462 was to take a number of cases. I don't remember 0:20:15.502 --> 0:20:18.302 if it was ten or a dozen, but we took 0:20:18.422 --> 0:20:23.102 cases that actually had been solved but were not published, 0:20:23.542 --> 0:20:26.742 so the information wasn't out there, but the cases that 0:20:26.822 --> 0:20:31.182 had been solved. The parapsychologists suggested that we take evidence 0:20:31.222 --> 0:20:35.582 from those cases, put them in sealed envelopes, have the 0:20:35.702 --> 0:20:40.422 psychics put their hands above the envelopes, not touch the envelopes, 0:20:40.982 --> 0:20:44.782 and come up with details of the crime and see 0:20:44.822 --> 0:20:49.782 if any of those details match the actual actual crime. 0:20:50.462 --> 0:20:53.302 And then we went to wherever they wanted to meet, 0:20:53.342 --> 0:20:56.942 and mostly was the homes of the psychics. A very 0:20:57.022 --> 0:21:01.662 diverse group of people, I mean really some you know, 0:21:01.782 --> 0:21:04.502 people that would want to make you smile, you know, 0:21:04.942 --> 0:21:08.622 tinfoil on their head and whatever, and others who were 0:21:09.342 --> 0:21:13.222 you know, you know, business attire, all kinds of people. 0:21:14.342 --> 0:21:19.102 And we did that. We gathered all the information that 0:21:19.262 --> 0:21:24.182 they had to say, and then we looked at actual statistics. 0:21:24.262 --> 0:21:28.022 What were the elements of the crime, So what were. 0:21:27.942 --> 0:21:29.542 Can you kind of give me the top line of 0:21:29.902 --> 0:21:32.182 the results and what that was in there. 0:21:32.582 --> 0:21:36.822 So what we found with the psychics did come up 0:21:36.902 --> 0:21:42.542 with some very interesting clueser information. For example, one said 0:21:42.622 --> 0:21:45.782 that he or she I don't remember which saw a 0:21:46.182 --> 0:21:50.782 very brightly painted coal full door. Well, it turns out 0:21:50.862 --> 0:21:54.302 that the victim did in fact live behind a brightly 0:21:54.422 --> 0:21:57.142 painted I think it was a green door, and that 0:21:57.382 --> 0:22:00.582 was like ooh, but it didn't lead to anything. It 0:22:00.662 --> 0:22:06.382 didn't lead to further ability to research or to find anything. 0:22:06.902 --> 0:22:10.822 Another one had said that he sees the victim has 0:22:10.902 --> 0:22:14.102 been in a bar within the last week. That was true, 0:22:14.582 --> 0:22:18.262 but again it didn't lead to a solution. And yet 0:22:18.302 --> 0:22:22.382 a third said that he saw a church, and the 0:22:22.502 --> 0:22:26.022 victim had been a caretaker and a church. Those were 0:22:26.102 --> 0:22:29.422 the three sort of clues that we got that were 0:22:29.502 --> 0:22:33.982 somewhat related to the crimes, but not enough information to 0:22:34.102 --> 0:22:35.102 take another step. 0:22:37.262 --> 0:22:41.862 So just a quick recap here. Even though the psychics 0:22:41.902 --> 0:22:45.702 in their study got certain details right, they didn't end 0:22:45.822 --> 0:22:49.182 up providing any information that would help police departments solve 0:22:49.262 --> 0:22:53.302 the cases. The paper wraps up with this we are 0:22:53.382 --> 0:22:57.422 forced to conclude, based on our results, that the usefulness 0:22:57.502 --> 0:23:00.902 of psychics as an age in criminal investigation has not 0:23:01.102 --> 0:23:07.182 been validated. Later on, Susan helped out with another study 0:23:07.582 --> 0:23:10.662 to see if the results would be read lolicated. This 0:23:10.942 --> 0:23:15.662 time the researchers added two control groups, college students and 0:23:15.782 --> 0:23:17.062 homicide detectives. 0:23:19.622 --> 0:23:22.382 And then my job was to go to the homicide investigators, 0:23:22.422 --> 0:23:28.262 which was quite interesting. These were the old homicide investigator 0:23:28.342 --> 0:23:31.462 teams that you would envision, you know, crusty, own guys 0:23:31.502 --> 0:23:34.862 with a cigar and tons and tons of experience with 0:23:35.062 --> 0:23:39.742 the homicides. But they were also very kind and cooperative 0:23:40.062 --> 0:23:43.422 and did exactly what we told them to do. But 0:23:44.142 --> 0:23:47.462 can you imagine telling and experienced homicide investigator, oh you 0:23:47.542 --> 0:23:50.102 can't look in the bag and you can't touch the bag, 0:23:50.382 --> 0:23:52.902 just float your hand above us and tell us about 0:23:52.942 --> 0:23:57.342 the crime. So I had some eye rolls, and you know, 0:23:57.462 --> 0:23:59.302 I think they put up with me because I was, 0:23:59.982 --> 0:24:03.222 you know, bright eyed and excited in twenty three. 0:24:04.142 --> 0:24:04.982 That's hilarious. 0:24:05.502 --> 0:24:07.942 It really was. Most of my career was like that. 0:24:09.302 --> 0:24:12.862 The researchers surveyed all three groups. They looked to see 0:24:12.942 --> 0:24:15.542 how many of the details each group got right about 0:24:15.582 --> 0:24:19.502 the cases. The study seemed to confirm the results of 0:24:19.542 --> 0:24:22.942 the first. Even though each group got some details right, 0:24:23.622 --> 0:24:25.782 none of them came up with information that would help 0:24:25.942 --> 0:24:30.222 actually solve a case. And not only did the psychics 0:24:30.262 --> 0:24:33.902 fail to come up with useful information, the homicide detectives 0:24:34.022 --> 0:24:36.702