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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hi, it's Lucy. This is a bonus episode of Where's Dea,

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Speaker 2: So if you haven't listened to the series yet, please

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Speaker 2: listen to that first, because our episode today is diving

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Speaker 2: into one of the more polarizing elements of the story,

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Speaker 2: the use of psychics in criminal investigations. While I reported

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Speaker 2: on the case of Dea Abrams, I found myself trying

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Speaker 2: to make sense of whether psychics are actually utilized in investigations,

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Speaker 2: and if so, whether they are actually helpful. I know

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Speaker 2: this part of the story was a sticking point for

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Speaker 2: a lot of you, and it's something I've been doing

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Speaker 2: more digging on since we released our last episode. You

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Speaker 2: might remember that Keith Harper, DEA's boyfriend, enlisted the help

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Speaker 2: of an organization called find Me to help him locate Dea.

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Speaker 2: Find Me was founded by ex DEA agent Kelly Snyder,

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Speaker 2: and relies on information from psychics to find missing people.

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Speaker 2: Harper first learned about find Me and Kelly Snyder because

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Speaker 2: of another missing person's case back in twenty twelve. A

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Speaker 2: thirteen year old named Dylan red Wine disappeared while he

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Speaker 2: was visiting his dad, who lived in Colorado. My producer

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Speaker 2: Jacob spoke with Kelly and Harper about the Dylan red

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Speaker 2: Wine case while they searched for Dea at Lake Hennett.

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Speaker 3: He saw the case that we worked and we found

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Speaker 3: the guy, or found the kid, and the psychics actually

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Speaker 3: told us who killed him?

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Speaker 1: What was the outcome there was there arrestmaker.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, it was the father killed him. It was

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Speaker 3: a big divorce and the kid hated the father and

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Speaker 3: the court forced him to go there on a visitation

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Speaker 3: and end result was he killed him. How did you

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Speaker 3: find the general area? A psychice told us where to go?

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Speaker 3: We went there and literally the guy who was in

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Speaker 3: charge of the investigation wanted us to go to the

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Speaker 3: twelve thousand foot level and work our way down, which

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Speaker 3: we did, but no one indicated that the kid was

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Speaker 3: up that high, and then went down to where our

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Speaker 3: psychic said that we may find him. And then the

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Speaker 3: team went in and Kiki was the name of the

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Speaker 3: dog that found him, found him within about twenty minutes

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Speaker 3: after going into the woods. And twenty minutes yeah, so yes.

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Speaker 2: According to Kelly, the psychic was the one to point

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Speaker 2: them in the right direction, and then the search dog

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Speaker 2: did the rest of the work. The whole thing turned

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Speaker 2: into a bit of a circus, with a ton of

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Speaker 2: press coverage and at least a few articles which did

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Speaker 2: mention that investigators followed tips from psychics and mediums. Mark

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Speaker 2: Dylan's father was eventually arrested, and in twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 2: he was found guilty of murdering Dylan and sentenced to

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Speaker 2: forty eight years in prison. Reading about the case made

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Speaker 2: me understand the appeal of how Kelly works, and Harper

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Speaker 2: clearly felt the same way.

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Speaker 3: Nobody had a clue where he was.

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Speaker 4: Searches were done.

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Speaker 3: He just like he disappeared into thin air, and then

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Speaker 3: Kelly comes in and within days solves the damn case.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'll take credit for it, but it's actually the

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Speaker 3: dogs and the psychics. The forty five million dollar reward

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Speaker 3: was worth it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I got forty five dollars. Solve it today.

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Speaker 2: Quick disclaimer here, we couldn't corroborate if Kelly's psychics actually

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Speaker 2: contributed to Dylan's case. One news article did mention cops

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Speaker 2: received tips from psychics, but only said that quote as

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Speaker 2: a matter of due diligence, law enforcement had to follow

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Speaker 2: up on many of them, and then another local news

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Speaker 2: story said that Dylan was found thanks to hours of

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Speaker 2: police manpower, not some psychic tip off. But there is

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Speaker 2: a testimonial on the find me website from a sergeant

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Speaker 2: investigator on the case. He thanked find me for their

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Speaker 2: help with searchers and wrote we are forever in their debt.

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Speaker 2: All of this made me more curious about how psychics

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Speaker 2: work with law enforcement and whether their work has any merit.

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Speaker 2: So in this episode, I'm asking a psychic and a

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Speaker 2: police psychologist about that. I'm Lucy Sheriff, and this is

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Speaker 2: Where's Deer. Today's episode all about psychics. We're going to

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Speaker 2: hear from a police psychologist in a bit, but let's

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Speaker 2: start with the psychic he actually worked on DEA's case.

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Speaker 6: Psychics look like everyday people. I mean people are usually

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Speaker 6: shocked when they find.

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Speaker 4: Out what I do.

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Speaker 2: This is Dave Campbell. He's based in Arizona, and the

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Speaker 2: first thing I learned while talking with him is that

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Speaker 2: in addition to being a psychic, he has a few

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Speaker 2: other skills too.

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Speaker 6: Well, so a hypnotherapist. They talk to people when they sleep.

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Speaker 6: I talk to dead people. Wow, all kinds of fun stuff.

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Speaker 6: And then I'm also as an astrologer and I also

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Speaker 6: wrote the book called Forensic Astrology, which is solving crimes

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Speaker 6: using astrology, which works amazingly and synchronistically. If people have

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Speaker 6: no clue what that is either they think it's just

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Speaker 6: sunfighting astrology, and I'm saying, oh, the pastis did it?

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Speaker 4: No, No, that's not it. We like to blame pass

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Speaker 4: for everything anything, So.

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Speaker 1: I'm of Icy's moon, so I can half take offense

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Speaker 1: to that.

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Speaker 2: Dave has been working with fire Me for years and,

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Speaker 2: like I said before, contributed to DIA's case, so I

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Speaker 2: wanted to hear about his experience and process. I would

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Speaker 2: love to hear how you got involved with Kelly Snyder,

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Speaker 2: like how you met him, because the funny thing about him,

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Speaker 2: it's like he is like the most unlikely person that

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Speaker 2: would be working with psychics, Like he's grasp She's like

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Speaker 2: like just me and potatoes.

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Speaker 5: Guy.

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Speaker 1: I was like, well, who are you yourself?

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Speaker 4: Yes?

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Speaker 6: And a retired DEA agent. Yeah yeah, not You're typical.

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Speaker 6: So it's really synchronistic too, because during my schooling with

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Speaker 6: the astrology, my teacher really always liked to do mystery charts,

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Speaker 6: and I was solve crimes or figure out who murdered

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Speaker 6: who or where's this personnet? Are they alive or dead?

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Speaker 6: And so to bring in district attorneys that were working

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Speaker 6: on case and give us a bunch of cases just

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Speaker 6: with their charts, and we would amaze them with what

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Speaker 6: we could come up with. And so I started thinking,

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Speaker 6: you know, this really works, and so I just went

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Speaker 6: further and further and then did it on my own.

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Speaker 6: And I thought, how can I get in touch with

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Speaker 6: and just put it out there in the universe. And

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Speaker 6: then so one of my other friends said that she

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Speaker 6: was taking the same astrology class that she just found

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Speaker 6: this retired DEA agent who was helping find missing children

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Speaker 6: and what I wanted to join with her because she

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Speaker 6: knew I was interested. And I'm like, oh yeah, so

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Speaker 6: it kind of found me. I put it out there

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Speaker 6: and it found me synchronistically, and that was like two

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Speaker 6: thousand or two thousand and one. Well, I've been with

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Speaker 6: Kelly ever since. So it's been a long time and

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Speaker 6: I've worked on I don't even know how many cases.

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Speaker 1: And how does it work.

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Speaker 2: Does he put out a call and then you guys

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Speaker 2: kind of decide whether you want to help.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, we.

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Speaker 6: Each case, he sends it to all of us and

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Speaker 6: we all just return it in what we get within

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Speaker 6: a week. I try to do all of them as

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Speaker 6: much as I can, Like sometimes I usually will meditate

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Speaker 6: on it first. I'll read the story like what we

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Speaker 6: do now, and we know very little. We usually just

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Speaker 6: get like they were missing on this day they were

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Speaker 6: last seen, and what's the circumstances what happened. So I

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Speaker 6: usually will get their birth date, I'll do their chart

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Speaker 6: the day they were missing, you know, put it all together,

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Speaker 6: see what I can see. I start pulling in the

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Speaker 6: information even then, you know, like as I say, oh,

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Speaker 6: it looks like this is very bad, you know, and

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Speaker 6: I can usually even then determine whether they're dead or not.

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Speaker 6: And then I do a meditation. I ask them if

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Speaker 6: they're in spirit, if they want to come and connect

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Speaker 6: with me. Sometimes they will, and sometimes they will launch,

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Speaker 6: and sometimes they refuse, which is because sometimes they don't

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Speaker 6: want to be found right at the moment. So I

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Speaker 6: do it day by day so I can keep getting

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Speaker 6: more information, and then I'll do like a terror reading

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Speaker 6: on it, and then I'll just do another psychic you know,

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Speaker 6: try to get any information I can get, and then

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Speaker 6: finally look at the charts and then usually I kind

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Speaker 6: of all kind of a puzzle starts to come together.

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Speaker 6: I never get paid to do any with a find

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Speaker 6: me stuff, and I don't want to, you know, it's

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Speaker 6: it's just what I do back for society and any

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Speaker 6: police work I've ever done when they come. I mean

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Speaker 6: I've had an independent police departments come to me too,

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Speaker 6: I know recharge.

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Speaker 1: So you worked on DA's case.

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Speaker 6: Yes, I don't want to talk too much in detail

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Speaker 6: about it, but I will say, you know, general things.

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Speaker 6: I have really reluctance to talk about personal cases because

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Speaker 6: if there's still any open ended to it, or it's

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Speaker 6: not solved and put to bed in prison time you

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Speaker 6: can I mean, I've been stocked and almost killed before,

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Speaker 6: so I don't want that to happen. Yeah, not my

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Speaker 6: favorite thing to do. So I'm really reluctant to say

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Speaker 6: specifics on any case other than you know, unless I

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Speaker 6: know it's can't come back.

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Speaker 4: But I did work on it.

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Speaker 1: Can you remember what I mean?

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Speaker 2: The anyone I can think of is medium? What mediums

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Speaker 2: you used to work on DA's case? Were you using cards?

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Speaker 2: We're using astrology?

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Speaker 4: I almost always use astrology.

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Speaker 6: Almost every case, and then I don't always use terror

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Speaker 6: but sometimes I do if I need more information or

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Speaker 6: want more, or if I just get.

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Speaker 4: Pulled to it. I always meditate.

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Speaker 6: I always get psychic scept as well, and it usually

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Speaker 6: even starts with the charts, and usually.

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Speaker 4: If the even is better.

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Speaker 6: Which I keep trying to tell people, if they would

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Speaker 6: give me the birth time of the person, it's like

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Speaker 6: nine day difference. It's like pleasy, hanzy information versus sharp,

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Speaker 6: clear perceptive, like I know exactly this.

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Speaker 1: Did you get a hard time of No, there's no

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Speaker 1: time of birth. Why don't I try to find it?

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Speaker 4: That would be awesome.

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Speaker 1: I can find it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, that would be very helpful.

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Speaker 6: So yeah, like I say, I usually work on a

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Speaker 6: case for usually about a week, and then once I've

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Speaker 6: turned it in, I kind of let everything go. I've

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Speaker 6: had to learn to do that otherwise are we bonkers?

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Speaker 6: And I tried to let everything go in that even

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Speaker 6: if it's not solved or whatever. I just you can't

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Speaker 6: hang on to it unless it comes up again, and

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Speaker 6: if he asks me, then I.

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Speaker 2: Revisited going back to the astrology. I'm really fascinated how

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Speaker 2: you use it to locate somebody or to find out

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Speaker 2: what happened.

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Speaker 6: Okay, so there's two different methods you can do profiling

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Speaker 6: with it. I did a whole case study of serial

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Speaker 6: killers charts, which was really crazy and fascinating to see

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Speaker 6: if there was patterns, to see if I could tell

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Speaker 6: why they did what they did. And there's similar patterns

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Speaker 6: in almost all of them.

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Speaker 1: Are they Is that why you made the no?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 7: I was just.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So the profiling is one thing.

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Speaker 6: And then also the transit to the time of the

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Speaker 6: planets of like, somebody gets killed, the day and time

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Speaker 6: of that killing is a chart itself, and so I

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Speaker 6: overlay it with the chart of the natal chart and

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Speaker 6: see what was happening, it was triggering if if there

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Speaker 6: was potential for you know, if it shows murder, it

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Speaker 6: should then it'll be in the chart. Then if they

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Speaker 6: give me suspects or if I can find, you know, suspects,

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Speaker 6: I can do their natal chart and the transits for

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Speaker 6: that day. Does it look like they were triggered to violence?

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Speaker 6: If not, they probably didn't do it. But I also

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Speaker 6: see if there was a violent combination between the two people.

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Speaker 6: So I'm looking at a lot of different things, a

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Speaker 6: lot of different charts together.

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Speaker 2: And what like, what do you say to people who

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Speaker 2: are skeptical about all of this, because obviously there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of non believers out there. Do you kind of

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Speaker 2: just strug them off or.

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Speaker 4: I don't pay attention anymore? I don't really care.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I've proved myself so many times, and I

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Speaker 6: think the being scientifically tested really gave me confidence to like,

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Speaker 6: you know, like I don't need to prove myself anymore.

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Speaker 6: If you want to prove it to yourself, then come

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Speaker 6: to get a reading. I actually have quite a few

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Speaker 6: friends that are cops, so they come to me for readings,

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Speaker 6: and I've had detectives come for readings I've had, you know,

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Speaker 6: so they know I can do what I do. They

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Speaker 6: come to my medium night and get you know, they'll

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Speaker 6: bring their families. So yeah, I'm sure they don't talk

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Speaker 6: about it too much. But it is really frustrating because

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Speaker 6: some police departments refuse our answers. Even if we gave

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Speaker 6: it to them and said this is where the body

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Speaker 6: is or who did it, they won't take it. And

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Speaker 6: I'm like, that's just crazy to me.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think there's this reluctance to acknowledge the

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Speaker 2: usefulness of psychics.

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Speaker 6: I think that they partly it's ego like that they

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Speaker 6: want to be the ones responsible, which is okay, and

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Speaker 6: I think that the police do.

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Speaker 4: They do fine. They do the actual work.

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Speaker 6: We're just a tool that they could use a tool,

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Speaker 6: and that's it. They still have to do all the

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Speaker 6: please work and you know, due diligence and go be

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Speaker 6: the ground.

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Speaker 4: But I do think.

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Speaker 6: They should use this a lot more than they do,

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Speaker 6: and I would rather they do it sooner than later,

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Speaker 6: because usually when later been a missing person means they're

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Speaker 6: already passed ninety percent of the time in my case,

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Speaker 6: so I would rather find them while they're still alive

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Speaker 6: and could be saved, rather than when they've gone cold

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Speaker 6: and can't figure it out and it's too late.

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Speaker 2: I desperately want to believe Dave, but there's another side

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Speaker 2: of me that still has questions. And until I can

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Speaker 2: find a cop who will openly say, yes, we've used

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Speaker 2: psychics to help as solve a murder or find a

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Speaker 2: missing person, I think those questions will always remain. After

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Speaker 2: the break. I speak with a researcher who conducted studies

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Speaker 2: with psychics while she was at the Los Angeles Police Department.

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Speaker 7: We found with the psychics did come up with some

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Speaker 7: very interesting clueser information.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to say how seriously law enforcement listens to

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Speaker 2: psychics like Dave. A lot of departments categorically say they

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Speaker 2: don't use them, at least that's what I've read. The

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Speaker 2: research on psychics and crime solving is also pretty sparse,

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Speaker 2: but one study caught my eye, an older one from

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine. There was a collaboration between the Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles Police Department and an associate professor at Los Angeles

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Speaker 2: City College.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, just for fan We'll do anything. People will cancer,

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Speaker 7: will go to Mexico and eat grapefruit or whatever it is.

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Speaker 7: I mean, people will try anything, and the police departments

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Speaker 7: won't stop people from doing what they think they need

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Speaker 7: to do as long as it doesn't interfere with the

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Speaker 7: police worker or the investigation to get the job done.

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Speaker 2: This is doctor Susan Sachs Clifford.

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Speaker 7: I'm a licensed psychologist and a board certified in police

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Speaker 7: and Public safety, and I spent fourteen years with LAPD

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Speaker 7: in the beginning of my career, and then for many

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Speaker 7: years I've had a private consulting business, consulting with law

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Speaker 7: enforcement and public safety agencies, mostly on assessment.

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Speaker 2: In the seventies, Susan was a staff psychologist with the LAPD,

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Speaker 2: eager to put her knowledge of research design and evaluation

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Speaker 2: to use, which is how she became involved in this

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Speaker 2: study of psychics.

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Speaker 7: At that time, a group of psychics approached LAPD and

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Speaker 7: they had some credentials on and I don't recall their association,

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Speaker 7: and we decided to do a well designed study on

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Speaker 7: actual cases to see if they could provide information that

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Speaker 7: would lead to the solution of crimes. LAPD was completely

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Speaker 7: open to it, and we sat down with the representatives

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Speaker 7: of the parapsychologists and designed a formal study.

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Speaker 2: What do you think it was about the environment that

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Speaker 2: made it right for this study? Do you think it

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Speaker 2: was the fund that it was la Was it the seventies?

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Speaker 2: You said the LAPD were open to it, which now sounds,

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Speaker 2: you know, feel surprising to hear.

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Speaker 7: Well, I think it would not be surprising, and I

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Speaker 7: think that people have images of rigid approaches and rigid mindsets.

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Speaker 7: But truthfully, if anything would work, it would be looked at.

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Speaker 7: And I was new and young and had my credentials,

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Speaker 7: and I don't remember if I brought it forward, or

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Speaker 7: if they had brought it to me, but saying, well,

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Speaker 7: let's you know, we're not going to shut down all

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Speaker 7: these people that come forward, but we also can't invest

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Speaker 7: a lot of time because we're really trying to get

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Speaker 7: something done to solve these crimes. So let's take a

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Speaker 7: look at it. You know, who knows. And I remember

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Speaker 7: being very very happy to be able to do an

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Speaker 7: actual research design, you know, and off we went.

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Speaker 1: So can you explain the setup of the study and

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Speaker 1: how did you decide what you were going to ask?

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Speaker 7: The study was actually very interesting because, as I said,

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Speaker 7: the parapsychologists had a lot of input. What we decided

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Speaker 7: was to take a number of cases. I don't remember

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Speaker 7: if it was ten or a dozen, but we took

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Speaker 7: cases that actually had been solved but were not published,

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Speaker 7: so the information wasn't out there, but the cases that

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Speaker 7: had been solved. The parapsychologists suggested that we take evidence

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Speaker 7: from those cases, put them in sealed envelopes, have the

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Speaker 7: psychics put their hands above the envelopes, not touch the envelopes,

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Speaker 7: and come up with details of the crime and see

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Speaker 7: if any of those details match the actual actual crime.

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Speaker 7: And then we went to wherever they wanted to meet,

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Speaker 7: and mostly was the homes of the psychics. A very

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Speaker 7: diverse group of people, I mean really some you know,

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Speaker 7: people that would want to make you smile, you know,

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Speaker 7: tinfoil on their head and whatever, and others who were

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Speaker 7: you know, you know, business attire, all kinds of people.

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Speaker 7: And we did that. We gathered all the information that

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Speaker 7: they had to say, and then we looked at actual statistics.

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Speaker 7: What were the elements of the crime, So what were.

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Speaker 1: Can you kind of give me the top line of

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Speaker 1: the results and what that was in there.

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Speaker 7: So what we found with the psychics did come up

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Speaker 7: with some very interesting clueser information. For example, one said

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Speaker 7: that he or she I don't remember which saw a

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Speaker 7: very brightly painted coal full door. Well, it turns out

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Speaker 7: that the victim did in fact live behind a brightly

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Speaker 7: painted I think it was a green door, and that

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Speaker 7: was like ooh, but it didn't lead to anything. It

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Speaker 7: didn't lead to further ability to research or to find anything.

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Speaker 7: Another one had said that he sees the victim has

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Speaker 7: been in a bar within the last week. That was true,

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Speaker 7: but again it didn't lead to a solution. And yet

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Speaker 7: a third said that he saw a church, and the

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Speaker 7: victim had been a caretaker and a church. Those were

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Speaker 7: the three sort of clues that we got that were

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Speaker 7: somewhat related to the crimes, but not enough information to

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Speaker 7: take another step.

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Speaker 2: So just a quick recap here. Even though the psychics

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Speaker 2: in their study got certain details right, they didn't end

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Speaker 2: up providing any information that would help police departments solve

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Speaker 2: the cases. The paper wraps up with this we are

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Speaker 2: forced to conclude, based on our results, that the usefulness

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Speaker 2: of psychics as an age in criminal investigation has not

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Speaker 2: been validated. Later on, Susan helped out with another study

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Speaker 2: to see if the results would be read lolicated. This

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Speaker 2: time the researchers added two control groups, college students and

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Speaker 2: homicide detectives.

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Speaker 7: And then my job was to go to the homicide investigators,

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Speaker 7: which was quite interesting. These were the old homicide investigator

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00:23:28,342 --> 00:23:31,462
Speaker 7: teams that you would envision, you know, crusty, own guys

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Speaker 7: with a cigar and tons and tons of experience with

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Speaker 7: the homicides. But they were also very kind and cooperative

385
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Speaker 7: and did exactly what we told them to do. But

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Speaker 7: can you imagine telling and experienced homicide investigator, oh you

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Speaker 7: can't look in the bag and you can't touch the bag,

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Speaker 7: just float your hand above us and tell us about

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Speaker 7: the crime. So I had some eye rolls, and you know,

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Speaker 7: I think they put up with me because I was,

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Speaker 7: you know, bright eyed and excited in twenty three.

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Speaker 1: That's hilarious.

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Speaker 7: It really was. Most of my career was like that.

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Speaker 2: The researchers surveyed all three groups. They looked to see

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Speaker 2: how many of the details each group got right about

396
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Speaker 2: the cases. The study seemed to confirm the results of

397
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Speaker 2: the first. Even though each group got some details right,

398
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Speaker 2: none of them came up with information that would help

399
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Speaker 2: actually solve a case. And not only did the psychics

400
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Speaker 2: fail to come up with useful information, the homicide detectives

401
00:24:34,022 --> 00:24:36,702
Speaker 2: got just about as many details right as they did.

402
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Speaker 7: And the reason was they just went into their experience

403
00:24:41,102 --> 00:24:45,982
Speaker 7: and pulled out the most common threads or the most

404
00:24:46,062 --> 00:24:52,022
Speaker 7: common issues that they would find in all of their experience. Again,

405
00:24:52,102 --> 00:24:56,102
Speaker 7: it would not have led particularly to a solution of

406
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Speaker 7: a crime, but it might have narrowed down their search

407
00:25:01,542 --> 00:25:02,182
Speaker 7: a little bit.

408
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Speaker 2: Now, these studies were both fairly small, the authors recommended

409
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Speaker 2: further research into this area. So, like I said, I

410
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Speaker 2: couldn't find much. I asked Susan about this.

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Speaker 7: I think, first of all, it's not front and center

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Speaker 7: of what most agencies do. And I think it was

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Speaker 7: unique at that time because there was a cooperation and

414
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Speaker 7: everybody went in the department and they really went out

415
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Speaker 7: on a limb. I'm not sure that they expected any results,

416
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Speaker 7: but they gave it an honest look and put resources

417
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Speaker 7: into it. I don't know, I don't know why. I

418
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Speaker 7: think maybe that study was sort of the end agencies

419
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Speaker 7: looked at that and said, well, okay.

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Speaker 5: I did find, by the way, a five page a

421
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Speaker 5: journal I guess general article. It appeared on the Department

422
00:25:57,782 --> 00:26:01,542
Speaker 5: of just US Department of Justice, and it was about

423
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Speaker 5: the usefulness of psychics and police investigations and the annotation

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Speaker 5: is their usefulness is controversial, but psychics have long been

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Speaker 5: a more undoubtedly continue to be involved in unsolved criminal investigations.

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Speaker 1: And that was in nineteen ninety three. I don't know

427
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Speaker 1: if you ever saw that.

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Speaker 7: I didn't, but that that does make sense.

429
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that kind of really piqued my interest, and yeah,

430
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Speaker 2: I was so desperate to see if there was anything else.

431
00:26:33,382 --> 00:26:36,302
Speaker 2: So it feels like there's there's sort of like rumors

432
00:26:36,382 --> 00:26:40,422
Speaker 2: floating around, but that they have been used, but it

433
00:26:40,582 --> 00:26:43,622
Speaker 2: feels like no one's quite willing to come and say

434
00:26:44,302 --> 00:26:49,142
Speaker 2: on the records, you know, we use them and successfully so.

435
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Speaker 1: And I kind of wonder if there's a stigma around it.

436
00:26:53,422 --> 00:26:58,222
Speaker 7: And I I think that if it was terribly useful,

437
00:26:58,302 --> 00:27:00,702
Speaker 7: it would be it would be a wonderful tool. I

438
00:27:00,902 --> 00:27:06,702
Speaker 7: just never heard that. Certainly, there are people who are intuitive,

439
00:27:07,262 --> 00:27:11,902
Speaker 7: very intelligent, and and me approach things in a different way.

440
00:27:11,982 --> 00:27:14,822
Speaker 7: I mean, we see on television, you know, all kinds

441
00:27:14,862 --> 00:27:20,782
Speaker 7: of superhero types who you think outside the box and

442
00:27:20,862 --> 00:27:24,462
Speaker 7: see things differently, and that's you know, that's all good.

443
00:27:24,622 --> 00:27:29,542
Speaker 7: But the psychic ability, and again they put their hands

444
00:27:29,662 --> 00:27:32,982
Speaker 7: above that envelope. I don't know that it would have

445
00:27:33,062 --> 00:27:36,102
Speaker 7: been any different had they opened the envelope. I mean,

446
00:27:36,142 --> 00:27:41,302
Speaker 7: I don't think it would have added anything really. But

447
00:27:41,462 --> 00:27:45,422
Speaker 7: this has been around for centuries, for centuries and centuries,

448
00:27:46,142 --> 00:27:51,462
Speaker 7: you know, back from ancient Rome to the Oracles. You know,

449
00:27:51,942 --> 00:27:57,422
Speaker 7: it's always been around. People are always wanting and hoping,

450
00:27:57,862 --> 00:28:00,542
Speaker 7: and I imagine it will be around for centuries to come.

451
00:28:01,702 --> 00:28:05,862
Speaker 7: I just don't know of any other well designed research

452
00:28:06,102 --> 00:28:10,582
Speaker 7: studies with a control group that I have seen that

453
00:28:10,662 --> 00:28:13,502
Speaker 7: would provide any anything solid.

454
00:28:18,102 --> 00:28:20,782
Speaker 2: It's a shame there hasn't been more research into using

455
00:28:20,862 --> 00:28:25,182
Speaker 2: psychics to help law enforcement, or if they already are

456
00:28:25,302 --> 00:28:28,622
Speaker 2: working together, that law enforcement isn't more open about it.

457
00:28:29,622 --> 00:28:33,422
Speaker 2: Surely finding missing people is the priority, right rather than

458
00:28:33,742 --> 00:28:38,502
Speaker 2: keeping up appearances. I couldn't help thinking back to what

459
00:28:38,662 --> 00:28:42,422
Speaker 2: Kelly Snyder said about Riverside's reluctance to use his information

460
00:28:42,542 --> 00:28:45,782
Speaker 2: to find Dea. What if the cops had searched Lake

461
00:28:45,822 --> 00:28:49,422
Speaker 2: Hemis sooner like Kelly was urging them to. What if

462
00:28:49,462 --> 00:28:53,582
Speaker 2: they'd search that strange Arizona coordinate. There wasn't too far

463
00:28:53,742 --> 00:28:59,782
Speaker 2: from Harper's route to New Mexico. By the way, I

464
00:28:59,982 --> 00:29:02,862
Speaker 2: found DEA's birth time, and I've passed it on to

465
00:29:03,022 --> 00:29:05,502
Speaker 2: Dave Campbell, so you can look into a case again

466
00:29:05,582 --> 00:29:08,942
Speaker 2: with this new detail. Maybe I believe in it all,

467
00:29:09,662 --> 00:29:12,742
Speaker 2: Maybe I don't, but I'm going to be very intrigued

468
00:29:13,062 --> 00:29:46,022
Speaker 2: to see what he comes up with. Where's Dear Is

469
00:29:46,142 --> 00:29:50,622
Speaker 2: written and hosted by me Lucy Sheriff. Our producer is

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00:29:50,742 --> 00:29:57,462
Speaker 2: Daphne Chen, editing by Karen Shakerji, fact checking by Lauren Vespoli.

471
00:29:58,502 --> 00:30:03,382
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. Original score by Echo

472
00:30:03,462 --> 00:30:10,382
Speaker 2: Shaw's mastering by Jacob Gorsky. Where's is a co production

473
00:30:10,622 --> 00:30:23,062
Speaker 2: of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. You can listen to all

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00:30:23,102 --> 00:30:26,862
Speaker 2: of Where's Dea right now ad free by becoming a

475
00:30:26,942 --> 00:30:31,502
Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus subscriber. Find Pushkin Plus on the Apple show

476
00:30:31,582 --> 00:30:36,102
Speaker 2: page for Where's Dea, or at pushkin dot fm slash Plus.

477
00:30:38,142 --> 00:30:41,342
Speaker 2: Where's Dea was originally developed with truly adventurous