WEBVTT - Angelo Carusone & Eoin Higgins 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.160 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.160 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:12.400 today's best minds, and Illinois Governor JB. Pritzker has blocked 0:00:12.480 --> 0:00:16.119 January sixth riders from state jobs. We have such a 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.360 great show for you today, Media Matters. Angelo Kirasone talks 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.720 us through the media's reaction to Trump's shock and all 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:28.800 legislation strategy. Then we'll talk to Owen Higgins about his 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:32.520 new book Owned How tech billionaires on the right bought 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:37.440 the loudest voices on the left. But first the news Somali. 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:42.839 Obviously, we are still discussing this tragic aviation accent are 0:00:42.920 --> 0:00:46.640 first in sixteen years with a commercial flight involved on 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:50.640 American soil. And I'm going to shock you here. Trump 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.480 has totally bullshitted his way through this whole thing. 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.440 You know, I actually was listening to it, well, I 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:00.920 was late for you, and I was listening to it 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:03.440 on c SPAN. I was listening to the Seespan has 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:06.360 this podcast where they replay all the sort of bits 0:01:06.360 --> 0:01:09.240 of content that have happened during the day. And what's 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.000 interesting is he says a statement that's like a normal 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.800 statement where you think, oh, this sounds pretty good, like 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:18.399 this is what a president should say, our hearts ache 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.160 for you. People in different countries, we all feel for you. 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:23.720 And you think, all right, well, that doesn't sound so bad. 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:27.679 And then he gets out these clips clearly and he says, 0:01:27.720 --> 0:01:29.959 now I want to talk about this is why it's 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:32.840 actually good to listen to all of Trump because people say, well, 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:35.400 the clip was taking out of context, but the context 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:38.520 is actually totally fascinating and more upsetting. 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:40.280 So that seems like the theme of the week is 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:42.560 that was also the theme in cash Ptel's hearings. 0:01:42.840 --> 0:01:45.679 Right, he has all these articles and he goes, I'm 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:48.560 going to now read some articles that happened before I 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:52.600 was president, I swear to God, and he starts reading 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:57.080 this article about how the Biden administration wanted to employ 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:02.400 people with mental disabilities for airline controllers. 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:04.400 Now, is that air traffic controllers. 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.560 It's not air traffic controllers, it's that part of DEI 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.120 is employing people with mental disability is okay, and that 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:13.520 it sort of makes a lot of leaps. It's clearly 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.519 like some right wing talking point article like, but it's 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.560 just fascinating, even just the fact that he shows up 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:25.320 to this press conference about this aviation disaster, and he 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:27.520 says this thing about how like he feels for all 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:29.760 the families, and then he's like, and here are some articles. 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.800 What I was struck by was the fact that Team 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:38.400 Trump is always always always working the refs on like 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:42.680 their favorite culture war topics. So right, they're already like 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.080 this is DEI and they have like a sort of 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:47.160 weak foundation for it, but whatever. 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:49.880 Yeah, a house built on the zone that they footed 0:02:49.880 --> 0:02:50.440 with shit. 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.919 Right exactly. And so I just thought that was pretty 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.200 interesting though, to sort of like actually listen to it 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.120 not cut up at all, because it just is totally strange. 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.120 And you know, the question, of course, Trump's big question 0:03:04.200 --> 0:03:07.440 is will this work for him? Will his people somehow 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:10.600 decide that DEI is what caused a crash which was 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:14.359 very likely human error? And you know, there weren't enough 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.040 people at the desk, but it sounds like from what 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:21.720 I understand, the controller asked the helicopter pilot if he 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.440 saw the plane and he said he did, so, I mean, 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.440 obviously he didn't, and that's how we got here. 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.639 Yes, and you'll be shocked to hear that Trump launched 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:34.120 the air controller diversity program that he doesn't like. 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.880 Well, the problem with hating the federal government and running 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:41.320 it is that he constantly gets into problems like this, right, 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:43.840 he says, you know this is to blame. Oh and 0:03:43.920 --> 0:03:46.360 it's from my last administration, so no one should be 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.760 surprised by this. Also, Fox News has a huge DEI, 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.800 I mean, Rupert Murdoch is running DEI in his own 0:03:54.000 --> 0:03:57.920 parent corporation that is filming the news shows that are 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:01.360 saying DEI is killing America. So make it make sense. 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:03.440 Oh wait, you can't. They're hypocrites, Molly. 0:04:03.600 --> 0:04:05.800 You know, I'm going to defend my president here for 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.480 a second. He's a New Yorker just like us, and 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.640 we know all about self conflicting hating things we're a 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:12.000 part of. 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:14.760 I'm going to tell you that if he tries to 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.760 get rid of congestion pricing, which I've already got a 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.240 news alert that he was going to, I will take 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:21.040 to the streets. 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.039 Oh you and I both, Okay, I'm gonna throw you 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.560 a wild card. We didn't have this planned, but I 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.560 feel like it's the weekend. We got to recap these 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.080 confirmation hearings of RFK and cash PTTEL. What are your 0:04:33.120 --> 0:04:34.080 feelings on these? 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.800 I think the smartest take I saw was Andrew Desiderio 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.599 from punch Bowl News, very straight down the middle, not 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.320 on the opinion side, but he covers Congress, and he 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.559 pointed out that there were a bunch of times when 0:04:47.880 --> 0:04:52.839 we saw Republican senators desperately trying to get RFK Junior 0:04:53.080 --> 0:04:57.120 and also to get Tulsey to say that they like 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.640 they would say, but you really think vaccines are good? 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.680 And he would say, well, not really. And they kept 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:05.680 trying to get Tulsea to say, well, you really think 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.000 Edward snowed in as a trader and she'd be like, no, 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.800 you know, these are like the please please, please please 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.400 let me fool myself for long enough to vote for you, 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:20.200 and they wouldn't even do that. Now, that doesn't mean 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.159 these Republicans aren't going to vote for them, but those 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.600 were pretty incredible moments, and we saw that throughout. We 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:27.120 saw that with Cash Battel too. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:31.839 I thought it was very very interesting the right wing 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:35.159 echo chamber of them thinking like Cash Battel and RFK 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:39.080 are owning the senators and everything with like really some 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.680 of the worst responses like oh you have this out 0:05:42.680 --> 0:05:43.240 of context. 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:45.680 Oh wow, Yeah, you really own me out. 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.839 Of context that you said that you're going to go 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.600 after your enemies, a thing that probably should disqualify you 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:51.640 from running the FBI. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:54.159 Yeah, I mean I thought it was pretty interesting too. 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:57.280 There were so many moments when RFK was actually just 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.360 unprepared and they asked questions and he was like, yeah, yeah, 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:02.320 I got to get the data. And there was also 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:04.279 I mean we talked about this earlier in the week, 0:06:04.320 --> 0:06:06.039 but the Bernie stuff where he was like, you just 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:10.880 take money from pharmaceutical companies. OURFK, Junior, this will be 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:16.080 a humongous drama for pharmaceutical companies. Pharmaceutical companies that have 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.480 many many lobbyists have managed to keep drug prices high 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.640 for a long long time. It's a very powerful group 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:27.000 of people, not exactly you know, poor kids who need 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:30.839 free lunches. Right, So I'll be curious to see how 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.479 pharmaceutical companies go to war with RFK. There are just 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:37.960 a lot of conflicting interests here. Everyone you know in 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:41.240 DC is so cynical and they're like, all these people 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:43.160 are going to get through. The only one who might 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.480 not get through is toll SI. Well that's what Trump 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.719 world is telling everyone, and maybe that's true. Maybe everyone 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.640 else sails through, but you know, nobody thought that Mitch 0:06:53.720 --> 0:06:57.480 McConnell was going to vote against teg Sas. Nobody thought that, 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.680 and they get through until they don't. And so you know, 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.520 maybe all three of them sail through, but maybe they don't. 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.560 And I think it's important not to be so nihilistic 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:10.720 and let the Republicans win because you know they may not. 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:12.840 Yeah, I mean, I have to say I've heard some 0:07:12.920 --> 0:07:15.720 language from some of these Republican senators where they've spent 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:20.080 a long many decade hating the name Kennedy right well, and. 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:22.160 It was hard for me to see. I mean, Bill 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:27.800 Cassady from Louisiana, he is a doctor, and he, unlike 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.560 Ran Paul who's also a doctor but seems to not 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:34.560 believe in medicine, he really did seem furious and he 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:36.560 did not seem like a person who is going to 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.840 vote for RFK. So now maybe they can till us him. 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:43.480 Maybe they can go in and spend two hours saying 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:46.000 whatever they said to Tom Tillis to get him to 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:49.480 vote for Hegseth. But maybe they can and more will 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:56.640 be revealed on this Angelo cuirasone is the CEO of 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:01.040 Media Matters. Welcome back to Fast Pas Politics, the home 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:05.720 of all good, happy things. Just kidding, Angelo. 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:06.600 That sounds right. 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:07.680 There's a lot going on. 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:09.880 Things going great. I think we should start by talking 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.360 about the many ways in which media companies are not 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:13.280 meeting the moment. 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:16.080 Yeah, that's a big one. And I think of all 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.000 the things that I mean a lot of what I 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:19.880 was talking about in the lead up to the election, 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:21.640 except because I'm not involved in the day to day 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:23.840 campaign work, I had somewhat of an advantage of thinking 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:26.920 about so the larger trajectory, and obviously my expertise in 0:08:26.920 --> 0:08:28.400 the media space, and so I spent a lot of 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.320 time thinking about products on twenty five and what an 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:32.200 administration would look like, and all the sort of the 0:08:32.240 --> 0:08:34.959 parade of horribles that could happen if Trump were to win. 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.000 And the one thing that I myself, even again I'm 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:39.679 a critic of the media, did not. 0:08:39.840 --> 0:08:41.120 Fully account for. 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:42.800 It's like I sort of assumed that there would be 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.320 some bending, that the coverage would be a little bit 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:47.760 milk toast, then maybe that there would be privileging of 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.480 lies and misinformation, you know, some false equivalences. I sort 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:53.960 of expect and built that into my like, what are 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:55.640 all the things that are going to go wrong? What I 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.080 did not fully account for was how quickly the fear 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.280 would be internalized at like the staff level, the reporter level, 0:09:02.640 --> 0:09:06.520 and then how quickly the transactional nature of hey, if 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:07.920 I just give you a bunch of money, I will 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:11.440 extract benefits from it would internalize at like the you know, 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:14.880 at the executive corporate level. And two things together are 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:20.320 I think have really created an incredibly wobbly foundation for 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.679 and really undermined the little resilience we had in maintaining 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:26.480 a lot of our core democratic structures. 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:32.160 You know, there was news yesterday that CBS was planning 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:34.720 to make you know, so we had ABC, now we 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:38.520 have CBS. I mean basically everyone is just paying Trump off, 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:43.040 basically Facebook, Facebook settled in the hopes that that will 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.440 mean that he will let them survive. 0:09:47.120 --> 0:09:48.040 Yeah. 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:52.160 Basically, there's a lot of evidence to support the idea 0:09:52.200 --> 0:09:55.560 that a traditional autocrat that this would not work, That 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:58.680 a traditional autocrat would you would pay them off and 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:03.600 then eventually would destroy you, Like if you look at Russia, right, like, 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.240 historically this has not worked, say, more about that. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.079 Yeah, I mean historically what ends up happening is that, well, 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:11.720 it's a couple of things. One, if you were to 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:16.079 say align with them or sort of capitulate really early, historically, 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:17.719 what ends up happening is that they sort of take 0:10:17.760 --> 0:10:20.120 the reprieve, they focus on other priorities, and they come 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:21.800 back around and get you anyway, because you're not ever 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.439 really considered a full loyalist and they need to replace 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:26.719 you and so, and also like they're just it's such 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:31.280 a grievance based industry and an operation like autocracies are 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:34.240 are theater in a way, and so you can't really 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:38.199 keep lots of the old guard around too long because 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.640 that they represent a status quo that you're entirely trying 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.360 to upend. And it's also just great theater to sort 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:46.160 of get rid of the past leaders. The other thing 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:48.360 that tends to happen, which is strange, is that is 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.320 that you have and this happened a lot in Hungary, 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:54.600 is that you have aligned you know, deep financial interest 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:58.760 by up the competitive media properties and sort of then 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.720 turn them into something that are appendages of the burgeoning autocrat. 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:05.679 Those get to survive unless they eventually and even they 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:07.880 get turned on over time, but they have a better 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:10.680 longer chance of survival. That's the part here that I 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.600 don't fully get is that it's an extremely short term 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:18.000 gambit from my perspective, because they are assuming that he 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:20.760 is that he will never sort of retaliate against them, 0:11:20.840 --> 0:11:22.720 and it other means actually, in a way, it's scary. 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:24.560 It means one or two things. It means one, they're 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.360 assuming that he's never going to retaliate against them in 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.360 the future, meaning that they can operate somewhat independently. And 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.319 if it cuts against him, that they're not going to 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.880 end up in the exact same position cause them to 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:37.240 effectively pay him off in the first place. Or they've 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:40.760 so deeply accepted that they no longer have total control 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.079 that they're never planning to do anything that runs a 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.680 foul of Trump. That's an even scarier prospect, right, Like, 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.600 what's the point of buying him off If you say, oh, 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:50.480 I'm going to have a stiff spot in a year 0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:52.880 from now and speak truth to power and have operational 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.240 control over my platform. Are they just not going to 0:11:55.440 --> 0:11:56.800 or they're going to. Are they just planning to buy 0:11:56.840 --> 0:11:57.520 them off every. 0:11:57.320 --> 0:11:59.640 Time something comes up and that, to me is the 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.520 real concerning part of this is that the either or 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.480 here you really gets back to the core issue, which 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:09.400 is that the pieces of our sort of core democratic structures. 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.480 That is what resilience is, and that that will evaporate. 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.880 I'm not not even saying, oh, the media will save us, 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.600 but this, you know, and I just delay it a lot. 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.679 It's like it's it's obviously ABC settling again a lawsuit 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.040 that was very unlikely to succeed. Most recently, Facebook settled 0:12:23.080 --> 0:12:25.800 with Trump for twenty five million dollars for suspending him. 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:28.400 There's still YouTube lawsuit that's out there that I think, 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:29.680 you know, potentially gets settled. 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:30.080 Who knows. 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.959 It's just there's just this mass sort of shift. That's 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.280 the stuff We're going to ultimately need to just be 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:40.360 somewhat neutral at least to have a real fighting chance 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.840 here at preserving some of the core parts of our society. 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:48.240 You know, it's interesting because it's like I am often 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.600 an optimist, which is not good for me. Like when 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.960 I went through sort of the post mortem on what 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.040 I really got wrong in the twenty twenty four election, 0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:59.360 it was at every point I was a little bit 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:03.120 too optimal stick about things, right, And it was much 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:07.599 to my detriment. But I actually think that my optimism 0:13:07.720 --> 0:13:11.480 is not unfounded here, which is Look, the problem with 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:14.440 the corporate media is that all of these media companies 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.319 are not just one newspaper. You know, they're like Jeff Bezos, right, 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.959 they own space companies, they have contracts for this, they 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.320 have this, they have that. So it turns out billionaires 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:27.079 are not good star wards of democracy, right they right, 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:29.199 they don't give a fuck. They just want to get 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:32.280 their space. You know. They got to be billionaires for 0:13:32.320 --> 0:13:35.120 a reason, right, And it was not because they cared 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:37.880 about the common good. Right, those people are social workers. 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:41.960 But I do think to a certain extent, I'm very 0:13:41.960 --> 0:13:45.640 interested to see because what I noticed this week, and 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.600 I want you to sort of tell me if you 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.240 think I'm crazy, because I might be. What I noticed 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:53.120 this week was Donald Trump got up there after that 0:13:53.240 --> 0:13:57.080 plane crash blamed DEI and said this is the fault 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.480 of DEI. And I know what he was doing, right, 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.000 He was like, we control the narrative. We got to 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.439 get a story out there that controls the narrative. This 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.640 is a story. Are people like they don't like DEI? 0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:11.280 They want to blame DEI, let's blame Di. Now. I 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.560 think that was a moment that a lot of normal 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.240 people were like, there's no way that, Like it just 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.920 didn't make any sense, right. You get that. You get 0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:23.680 that if you're in the fevers pitches of the far 0:14:24.320 --> 0:14:28.080 you know, the internet swamp, you think, oh, Di, okay, 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.800 that makes sense. But I think that that was It's 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:34.479 like one of those moments where normal people are like, huh. 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:38.600 And I think that is ultimately Trump's problem really is 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.000 that he's in the media bubble just like everyone else's. 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.160 Yeah, So I don't think you're wrong. I think that's 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.520 a reasonable assessment. I think to take a step back, 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.560 and to me, I always ask the question of like, 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:51.360 so what and the assumption, and I think there's so 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:53.000 a lot of what you're saying is that, well, you 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.000 still have to have some degree of buy in from 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.240 the government in order to maintain power for an extended 0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:01.240 period of time, and that's correct. The thing to consider, though, 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.200 is that a lot of and this is where it 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:05.480 ties into the media conversation and so much of sort 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:07.840 of this smashing, grab, shock and awe that is happening, 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:11.080 is that that's so what only works over an extent 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:12.680 of perod of time, meaning it to the next election or 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:15.280 the next chance to really transform or change, or the 0:15:15.360 --> 0:15:18.120 next inflection point where there could be some response to 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.080 public pressure. The issue, though, is that part of what's 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:23.920 unfolding right now, and this is why the media capitulating 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:25.160 so fast is concerning to me. 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:25.480 I agree. 0:15:25.480 --> 0:15:27.240 I never really trusted them, and I never thought they'd 0:15:27.240 --> 0:15:29.040 be the savior. But in a way they were sort 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.000 of like extending the curve Beny so that we had 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.320 a little more time. Part of what's happening right now 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.760 in these initial few months is to do so much 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.920 so fast that you shift the culture as well. You 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:42.480 actually take away that's so what. And if you can 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.480 convince people that the media companies are terrible, it's like, great, well, 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.080 then we could just have people go off independently. 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:47.480 Great. 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:50.120 But if you are successful in burying people in litigation 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:53.960 and threats from cash betel and investigations, then you start 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:58.080 to suffocate and smother the counter narratives that you're identifying, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:00.440 and people may think it just like they do in Russia, 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.360 but then they stop saying anything about it, and that 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:04.280 it doesn't mean so what, and that The one thing 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:06.160 I would say is I agree with your assessment. I 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.600 don't think it's too optimistic. What I would just caution 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.960 is that that alone is probably not sufficient in this moment. 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.680 It's sort of like a plant that's outside when it's 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:16.760 still potentially able to frost, Like, we need to have 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:17.880 a little more protective cover. 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.640 Yeah. The only thing that will save us, if anything 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:26.200 does save us, is the is the innate incompetence of 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.480 trump Ism. I mean, that's it, right, because the media 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.200 is not going to save us. There's no Bob Muller, who, 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:36.320 by the way, that guy really fixed everything, right. James 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:40.360 Comy is writing novels in Connecticut. I mean, you know, 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.840 after prosecuting Martha Stewart. I mean these guys, you know, 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.120 the people in the federal government are not brave. I 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.840 do think that. I mean, the good news is he's 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:55.680 so and again these this good should be in scare quotes, like, 0:16:55.760 --> 0:16:59.280 the good news is he's so dehumanized that people work 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.880 in the federal goal for men. Yeah, that they're probably 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.600 leaking like crazy, and the next four years are just 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.800 going to be Trump's you know, sort of every thing 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.280 that anyone in that administration has ever done. 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:13.959 I think so the one thing that it's true, there 0:17:14.040 --> 0:17:17.159 is a lot of like incompetence and incapacity. I would 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.000 also just note that the core and key players aren't 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:24.000 in place yet. Russell Bote isn't it at omb and 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.520 he's going to be a critical part of the capacity 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:28.719 and capabilities because he's the one that sort of has, 0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:31.080 in a way the keys to the castle. So much 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:35.120 of their plans are designed to sort of stem from 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.520 the work that he did over the last couple of years. 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:39.920 The other thing to note is that, and this is 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:41.680 the thing that's really important, that they have a very 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.560 large risk tolerance, Like they're going and assuming a wide 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:48.359 amount of mistakes, and that is something that they're comfortable with. 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:50.480 And it's also something that Elon Musk brings to the table. 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:52.639 That's what he's done everywhere. And I remember when he 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.919 first took over Twitter and everyone thought that when he 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.119 because he had fired all the engineers and people out, 0:17:57.160 --> 0:17:59.119 the system was going to break and fall apart, you know, 0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:01.359 and that each it's like, yeah, he's like you know, 0:18:01.359 --> 0:18:02.879 and he did the same thing. It tess on other companies, 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:05.080 like you take everything away, you strip it down to 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:06.840 the to the bare bones, and yeah, there may be 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.280 a bunch of embarrassing things that happened, but then you 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.440 only put in the essential pieces needed to hold the 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.240 place up and now it's yours. And that's the thing 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.800 to consider, is that some of the incompetents they're okay 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:18.760 with because it means that, you know, if they can 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:20.480 get away with it, and each time they get away 0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:23.320 with it, it further empowers them in a weird way. 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.840 So I agree, I think that is going to be 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.960 a frustrating point. I think the part that does concern 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.320 me a lot is that layered in within the incompetence 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:34.720 is just a malevolence and a targeted malevolence that is 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.360 going to really make it hard to operationalize the frustration 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:39.840 from that incompetence. And that doesn't mean it's no hope, 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.760 I do think, And you said something that really accept me. 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:44.920 It's like you were pointed to or you started listing 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:47.720 some of the saviors that democrats and the public pointed 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.080 to the last time around. And that was always the 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.159 thing that I was anxious about, is that there was 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:54.399 no savor. The savor, in a way was us, and 0:18:54.440 --> 0:18:56.159 we just wanted to outsource it, and I think this 0:18:56.240 --> 0:18:57.760 is sort of the inflection point for all of us 0:18:57.840 --> 0:18:59.560 is like do we want to outsource it? There isn't 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.199 going to be a say, and it's certainly not going 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.440 to be the Democratic Party or is it going to 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:05.600 be us? And that I think is a big piece 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:05.879 of this. 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:08.920 Yeah. And I mean I also think this is a 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:13.440 terrible moment in American politics. And I mean it really is. 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.280 I mean it's okay to accept that this is just horrendous. 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.440 I mean watching I mean I watched those hearings yesterday, 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:27.040 and I mean these Republican senators just begging RFK Junior 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.560 just to say that vaccines are okay and you wouldn't, 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:34.000 I mean the sort of let you know, and begging 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:38.640