1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Illinois Governor JB. Pritzker has blocked 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:16,119 Speaker 1: January sixth riders from state jobs. We have such a 5 00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: great show for you today, Media Matters. Angelo Kirasone talks 6 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: us through the media's reaction to Trump's shock and all 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: legislation strategy. Then we'll talk to Owen Higgins about his 8 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:32,520 Speaker 1: new book Owned How tech billionaires on the right bought 9 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: the loudest voices on the left. But first the news Somali. 10 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 2: Obviously, we are still discussing this tragic aviation accent are 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 2: first in sixteen years with a commercial flight involved on 12 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: American soil. And I'm going to shock you here. Trump 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 2: has totally bullshitted his way through this whole thing. 14 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: You know, I actually was listening to it, well, I 15 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: was late for you, and I was listening to it 16 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: on c SPAN. I was listening to the Seespan has 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: this podcast where they replay all the sort of bits 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: of content that have happened during the day. And what's 19 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: interesting is he says a statement that's like a normal 20 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: statement where you think, oh, this sounds pretty good, like 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: this is what a president should say, our hearts ache 22 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: for you. People in different countries, we all feel for you. 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: And you think, all right, well, that doesn't sound so bad. 24 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: And then he gets out these clips clearly and he says, 25 00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: now I want to talk about this is why it's 26 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: actually good to listen to all of Trump because people say, well, 27 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: the clip was taking out of context, but the context 28 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: is actually totally fascinating and more upsetting. 29 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 2: So that seems like the theme of the week is 30 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: that was also the theme in cash Ptel's hearings. 31 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: Right, he has all these articles and he goes, I'm 32 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: going to now read some articles that happened before I 33 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: was president, I swear to God, and he starts reading 34 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: this article about how the Biden administration wanted to employ 35 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: people with mental disabilities for airline controllers. 36 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 3: Now, is that air traffic controllers. 37 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: It's not air traffic controllers, it's that part of DEI 38 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: is employing people with mental disability is okay, and that 39 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,520 Speaker 1: it sort of makes a lot of leaps. It's clearly 40 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 1: like some right wing talking point article like, but it's 41 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: just fascinating, even just the fact that he shows up 42 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: to this press conference about this aviation disaster, and he 43 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: says this thing about how like he feels for all 44 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: the families, and then he's like, and here are some articles. 45 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: What I was struck by was the fact that Team 46 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: Trump is always always always working the refs on like 47 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: their favorite culture war topics. So right, they're already like 48 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: this is DEI and they have like a sort of 49 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: weak foundation for it, but whatever. 50 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, a house built on the zone that they footed 51 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: with shit. 52 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: Right exactly. And so I just thought that was pretty 53 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: interesting though, to sort of like actually listen to it 54 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: not cut up at all, because it just is totally strange. 55 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: And you know, the question, of course, Trump's big question 56 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 1: is will this work for him? Will his people somehow 57 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: decide that DEI is what caused a crash which was 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: very likely human error? And you know, there weren't enough 59 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 1: people at the desk, but it sounds like from what 60 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: I understand, the controller asked the helicopter pilot if he 61 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: saw the plane and he said he did, so, I mean, 62 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: obviously he didn't, and that's how we got here. 63 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 2: Yes, and you'll be shocked to hear that Trump launched 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: the air controller diversity program that he doesn't like. 65 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: Well, the problem with hating the federal government and running 66 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: it is that he constantly gets into problems like this, right, 67 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: he says, you know this is to blame. Oh and 68 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: it's from my last administration, so no one should be 69 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: surprised by this. Also, Fox News has a huge DEI, 70 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: I mean, Rupert Murdoch is running DEI in his own 71 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: parent corporation that is filming the news shows that are 72 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: saying DEI is killing America. So make it make sense. 73 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: Oh wait, you can't. They're hypocrites, Molly. 74 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: You know, I'm going to defend my president here for 75 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 2: a second. He's a New Yorker just like us, and 76 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: we know all about self conflicting hating things we're a 77 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: part of. 78 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you that if he tries to 79 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: get rid of congestion pricing, which I've already got a 80 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: news alert that he was going to, I will take 81 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: to the streets. 82 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,039 Speaker 2: Oh you and I both, Okay, I'm gonna throw you 83 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 2: a wild card. We didn't have this planned, but I 84 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: feel like it's the weekend. We got to recap these 85 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: confirmation hearings of RFK and cash PTTEL. What are your 86 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 2: feelings on these? 87 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: I think the smartest take I saw was Andrew Desiderio 88 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: from punch Bowl News, very straight down the middle, not 89 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: on the opinion side, but he covers Congress, and he 90 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,559 Speaker 1: pointed out that there were a bunch of times when 91 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: we saw Republican senators desperately trying to get RFK Junior 92 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: and also to get Tulsey to say that they like 93 00:04:57,160 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: they would say, but you really think vaccines are good? 94 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: And he would say, well, not really. And they kept 95 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: trying to get Tulsea to say, well, you really think 96 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: Edward snowed in as a trader and she'd be like, no, 97 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: you know, these are like the please please, please please 98 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: let me fool myself for long enough to vote for you, 99 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: and they wouldn't even do that. Now, that doesn't mean 100 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: these Republicans aren't going to vote for them, but those 101 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: were pretty incredible moments, and we saw that throughout. We 102 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: saw that with Cash Battel too. 103 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,839 Speaker 2: I thought it was very very interesting the right wing 104 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: echo chamber of them thinking like Cash Battel and RFK 105 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: are owning the senators and everything with like really some 106 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 2: of the worst responses like oh you have this out 107 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: of context. 108 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 3: Oh wow, Yeah, you really own me out. 109 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 2: Of context that you said that you're going to go 110 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 2: after your enemies, a thing that probably should disqualify you 111 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 2: from running the FBI. 112 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I thought it was pretty interesting too. 113 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: There were so many moments when RFK was actually just 114 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,360 Speaker 1: unprepared and they asked questions and he was like, yeah, yeah, 115 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: I got to get the data. And there was also 116 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: I mean we talked about this earlier in the week, 117 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 1: but the Bernie stuff where he was like, you just 118 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 1: take money from pharmaceutical companies. OURFK, Junior, this will be 119 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 1: a humongous drama for pharmaceutical companies. Pharmaceutical companies that have 120 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: many many lobbyists have managed to keep drug prices high 121 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,640 Speaker 1: for a long long time. It's a very powerful group 122 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: of people, not exactly you know, poor kids who need 123 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: free lunches. Right, So I'll be curious to see how 124 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: pharmaceutical companies go to war with RFK. There are just 125 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 1: a lot of conflicting interests here. Everyone you know in 126 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: DC is so cynical and they're like, all these people 127 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: are going to get through. The only one who might 128 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: not get through is toll SI. Well that's what Trump 129 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: world is telling everyone, and maybe that's true. Maybe everyone 130 00:06:49,760 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: else sails through, but you know, nobody thought that Mitch 131 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: McConnell was going to vote against teg Sas. Nobody thought that, 132 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: and they get through until they don't. And so you know, 133 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: maybe all three of them sail through, but maybe they don't. 134 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: And I think it's important not to be so nihilistic 135 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: and let the Republicans win because you know they may not. 136 00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I have to say I've heard some 137 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 2: language from some of these Republican senators where they've spent 138 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 2: a long many decade hating the name Kennedy right well, and. 139 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: It was hard for me to see. I mean, Bill 140 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 1: Cassady from Louisiana, he is a doctor, and he, unlike 141 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: Ran Paul who's also a doctor but seems to not 142 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: believe in medicine, he really did seem furious and he 143 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: did not seem like a person who is going to 144 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: vote for RFK. So now maybe they can till us him. 145 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: Maybe they can go in and spend two hours saying 146 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: whatever they said to Tom Tillis to get him to 147 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: vote for Hegseth. But maybe they can and more will 148 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: be revealed on this Angelo cuirasone is the CEO of 149 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: Media Matters. Welcome back to Fast Pas Politics, the home 150 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 1: of all good, happy things. Just kidding, Angelo. 151 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 4: That sounds right. 152 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 5: There's a lot going on. 153 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: Things going great. I think we should start by talking 154 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,360 Speaker 1: about the many ways in which media companies are not 155 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: meeting the moment. 156 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a big one. And I think of all 157 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 5: the things that I mean a lot of what I 158 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 5: was talking about in the lead up to the election, 159 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 5: except because I'm not involved in the day to day 160 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,840 Speaker 5: campaign work, I had somewhat of an advantage of thinking 161 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 5: about so the larger trajectory, and obviously my expertise in 162 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 5: the media space, and so I spent a lot of 163 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 5: time thinking about products on twenty five and what an 164 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 5: administration would look like, and all the sort of the 165 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 5: parade of horribles that could happen if Trump were to win. 166 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 5: And the one thing that I myself, even again I'm 167 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 5: a critic of the media, did not. 168 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: Fully account for. 169 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 5: It's like I sort of assumed that there would be 170 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 5: some bending, that the coverage would be a little bit 171 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 5: milk toast, then maybe that there would be privileging of 172 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 5: lies and misinformation, you know, some false equivalences. I sort 173 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 5: of expect and built that into my like, what are 174 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 5: all the things that are going to go wrong? What I 175 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 5: did not fully account for was how quickly the fear 176 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 5: would be internalized at like the staff level, the reporter level, 177 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 5: and then how quickly the transactional nature of hey, if 178 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 5: I just give you a bunch of money, I will 179 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 5: extract benefits from it would internalize at like the you know, 180 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 5: at the executive corporate level. And two things together are 181 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 5: I think have really created an incredibly wobbly foundation for 182 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 5: and really undermined the little resilience we had in maintaining 183 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 5: a lot of our core democratic structures. 184 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:32,160 Speaker 1: You know, there was news yesterday that CBS was planning 185 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: to make you know, so we had ABC, now we 186 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: have CBS. I mean basically everyone is just paying Trump off, 187 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: basically Facebook, Facebook settled in the hopes that that will 188 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: mean that he will let them survive. 189 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 3: Yeah. 190 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: Basically, there's a lot of evidence to support the idea 191 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: that a traditional autocrat that this would not work, That 192 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: a traditional autocrat would you would pay them off and 193 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: then eventually would destroy you, Like if you look at Russia, right, like, 194 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: historically this has not worked, say, more about that. 195 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,079 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean historically what ends up happening is that, well, 196 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 5: it's a couple of things. One, if you were to 197 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 5: say align with them or sort of capitulate really early, historically, 198 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:17,719 Speaker 5: what ends up happening is that they sort of take 199 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 5: the reprieve, they focus on other priorities, and they come 200 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 5: back around and get you anyway, because you're not ever 201 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 5: really considered a full loyalist and they need to replace 202 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 5: you and so, and also like they're just it's such 203 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 5: a grievance based industry and an operation like autocracies are 204 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 5: are theater in a way, and so you can't really 205 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:38,199 Speaker 5: keep lots of the old guard around too long because 206 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 5: that they represent a status quo that you're entirely trying 207 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 5: to upend. And it's also just great theater to sort 208 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 5: of get rid of the past leaders. The other thing 209 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 5: that tends to happen, which is strange, is that is 210 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 5: that you have and this happened a lot in Hungary, 211 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 5: is that you have aligned you know, deep financial interest 212 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 5: by up the competitive media properties and sort of then 213 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 5: turn them into something that are appendages of the burgeoning autocrat. 214 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 5: Those get to survive unless they eventually and even they 215 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 5: get turned on over time, but they have a better 216 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 5: longer chance of survival. That's the part here that I 217 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 5: don't fully get is that it's an extremely short term 218 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 5: gambit from my perspective, because they are assuming that he 219 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 5: is that he will never sort of retaliate against them, 220 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 5: and it other means actually, in a way, it's scary. 221 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 5: It means one or two things. It means one, they're 222 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 5: assuming that he's never going to retaliate against them in 223 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 5: the future, meaning that they can operate somewhat independently. And 224 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,319 Speaker 5: if it cuts against him, that they're not going to 225 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 5: end up in the exact same position cause them to 226 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 5: effectively pay him off in the first place. Or they've 227 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 5: so deeply accepted that they no longer have total control 228 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,079 Speaker 5: that they're never planning to do anything that runs a 229 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 5: foul of Trump. That's an even scarier prospect, right, Like, 230 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 5: what's the point of buying him off If you say, oh, 231 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 5: I'm going to have a stiff spot in a year 232 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,880 Speaker 5: from now and speak truth to power and have operational 233 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 5: control over my platform. Are they just not going to 234 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 5: or they're going to. Are they just planning to buy 235 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 5: them off every. 236 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 6: Time something comes up and that, to me is the 237 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 6: real concerning part of this is that the either or 238 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 6: here you really gets back to the core issue, which 239 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 6: is that the pieces of our sort of core democratic structures. 240 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 5: That is what resilience is, and that that will evaporate. 241 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 5: I'm not not even saying, oh, the media will save us, 242 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 5: but this, you know, and I just delay it a lot. 243 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 5: It's like it's it's obviously ABC settling again a lawsuit 244 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 5: that was very unlikely to succeed. Most recently, Facebook settled 245 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 5: with Trump for twenty five million dollars for suspending him. 246 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 5: There's still YouTube lawsuit that's out there that I think, 247 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 5: you know, potentially gets settled. 248 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 3: Who knows. 249 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 5: It's just there's just this mass sort of shift. That's 250 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 5: the stuff We're going to ultimately need to just be 251 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 5: somewhat neutral at least to have a real fighting chance 252 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 5: here at preserving some of the core parts of our society. 253 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting because it's like I am often 254 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 1: an optimist, which is not good for me. Like when 255 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: I went through sort of the post mortem on what 256 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 1: I really got wrong in the twenty twenty four election, 257 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: it was at every point I was a little bit 258 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: too optimal stick about things, right, And it was much 259 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,599 Speaker 1: to my detriment. But I actually think that my optimism 260 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 1: is not unfounded here, which is Look, the problem with 261 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: the corporate media is that all of these media companies 262 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: are not just one newspaper. You know, they're like Jeff Bezos, right, 263 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 1: they own space companies, they have contracts for this, they 264 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,320 Speaker 1: have this, they have that. So it turns out billionaires 265 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:27,079 Speaker 1: are not good star wards of democracy, right they right, 266 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: they don't give a fuck. They just want to get 267 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: their space. You know. They got to be billionaires for 268 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: a reason, right, And it was not because they cared 269 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: about the common good. Right, those people are social workers. 270 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: But I do think to a certain extent, I'm very 271 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 1: interested to see because what I noticed this week, and 272 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: I want you to sort of tell me if you 273 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: think I'm crazy, because I might be. What I noticed 274 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: this week was Donald Trump got up there after that 275 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: plane crash blamed DEI and said this is the fault 276 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: of DEI. And I know what he was doing, right, 277 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: He was like, we control the narrative. We got to 278 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,439 Speaker 1: get a story out there that controls the narrative. This 279 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: is a story. Are people like they don't like DEI? 280 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: They want to blame DEI, let's blame Di. Now. I 281 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: think that was a moment that a lot of normal 282 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: people were like, there's no way that, Like it just 283 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: didn't make any sense, right. You get that. You get 284 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: that if you're in the fevers pitches of the far 285 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, the internet swamp, you think, oh, Di, okay, 286 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: that makes sense. But I think that that was It's 287 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,479 Speaker 1: like one of those moments where normal people are like, huh. 288 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: And I think that is ultimately Trump's problem really is 289 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: that he's in the media bubble just like everyone else's. 290 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, So I don't think you're wrong. I think that's 291 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 5: a reasonable assessment. I think to take a step back, 292 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 5: and to me, I always ask the question of like, 293 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 5: so what and the assumption, and I think there's so 294 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 5: a lot of what you're saying is that, well, you 295 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 5: still have to have some degree of buy in from 296 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 5: the government in order to maintain power for an extended 297 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 5: period of time, and that's correct. The thing to consider, though, 298 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 5: is that a lot of and this is where it 299 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 5: ties into the media conversation and so much of sort 300 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 5: of this smashing, grab, shock and awe that is happening, 301 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 5: is that that's so what only works over an extent 302 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 5: of perod of time, meaning it to the next election or 303 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 5: the next chance to really transform or change, or the 304 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 5: next inflection point where there could be some response to 305 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 5: public pressure. The issue, though, is that part of what's 306 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 5: unfolding right now, and this is why the media capitulating 307 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 5: so fast is concerning to me. 308 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 4: I agree. 309 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 5: I never really trusted them, and I never thought they'd 310 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 5: be the savior. But in a way they were sort 311 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 5: of like extending the curve Beny so that we had 312 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 5: a little more time. Part of what's happening right now 313 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 5: in these initial few months is to do so much 314 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 5: so fast that you shift the culture as well. You 315 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 5: actually take away that's so what. And if you can 316 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 5: convince people that the media companies are terrible, it's like, great, well, 317 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,080 Speaker 5: then we could just have people go off independently. 318 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 4: Great. 319 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 5: But if you are successful in burying people in litigation 320 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 5: and threats from cash betel and investigations, then you start 321 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 5: to suffocate and smother the counter narratives that you're identifying, 322 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:00,440 Speaker 5: and people may think it just like they do in Russia, 323 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 5: but then they stop saying anything about it, and that 324 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 5: it doesn't mean so what, and that The one thing 325 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 5: I would say is I agree with your assessment. I 326 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 5: don't think it's too optimistic. What I would just caution 327 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 5: is that that alone is probably not sufficient in this moment. 328 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 5: It's sort of like a plant that's outside when it's 329 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 5: still potentially able to frost, Like, we need to have 330 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 5: a little more protective cover. 331 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. The only thing that will save us, if anything 332 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: does save us, is the is the innate incompetence of 333 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: trump Ism. I mean, that's it, right, because the media 334 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: is not going to save us. There's no Bob Muller, who, 335 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: by the way, that guy really fixed everything, right. James 336 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: Comy is writing novels in Connecticut. I mean, you know, 337 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: after prosecuting Martha Stewart. I mean these guys, you know, 338 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: the people in the federal government are not brave. I 339 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: do think that. I mean, the good news is he's 340 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: so and again these this good should be in scare quotes, like, 341 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: the good news is he's so dehumanized that people work 342 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: in the federal goal for men. Yeah, that they're probably 343 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: leaking like crazy, and the next four years are just 344 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: going to be Trump's you know, sort of every thing 345 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 1: that anyone in that administration has ever done. 346 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 5: I think so the one thing that it's true, there 347 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 5: is a lot of like incompetence and incapacity. I would 348 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 5: also just note that the core and key players aren't 349 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 5: in place yet. Russell Bote isn't it at omb and 350 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 5: he's going to be a critical part of the capacity 351 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,719 Speaker 5: and capabilities because he's the one that sort of has, 352 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 5: in a way the keys to the castle. So much 353 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 5: of their plans are designed to sort of stem from 354 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 5: the work that he did over the last couple of years. 355 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 5: The other thing to note is that, and this is 356 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 5: the thing that's really important, that they have a very 357 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 5: large risk tolerance, Like they're going and assuming a wide 358 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 5: amount of mistakes, and that is something that they're comfortable with. 359 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,480 Speaker 5: And it's also something that Elon Musk brings to the table. 360 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 5: That's what he's done everywhere. And I remember when he 361 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,919 Speaker 5: first took over Twitter and everyone thought that when he 362 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 5: because he had fired all the engineers and people out, 363 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,119 Speaker 5: the system was going to break and fall apart, you know, 364 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 5: and that each it's like, yeah, he's like you know, 365 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 5: and he did the same thing. It tess on other companies, 366 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 5: like you take everything away, you strip it down to 367 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 5: the to the bare bones, and yeah, there may be 368 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 5: a bunch of embarrassing things that happened, but then you 369 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,440 Speaker 5: only put in the essential pieces needed to hold the 370 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 5: place up and now it's yours. And that's the thing 371 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 5: to consider, is that some of the incompetents they're okay 372 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 5: with because it means that, you know, if they can 373 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 5: get away with it, and each time they get away 374 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,320 Speaker 5: with it, it further empowers them in a weird way. 375 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 5: So I agree, I think that is going to be 376 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 5: a frustrating point. I think the part that does concern 377 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 5: me a lot is that layered in within the incompetence 378 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 5: is just a malevolence and a targeted malevolence that is 379 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 5: going to really make it hard to operationalize the frustration 380 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 5: from that incompetence. And that doesn't mean it's no hope, 381 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 5: I do think, And you said something that really accept me. 382 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 5: It's like you were pointed to or you started listing 383 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 5: some of the saviors that democrats and the public pointed 384 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 5: to the last time around. And that was always the 385 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,159 Speaker 5: thing that I was anxious about, is that there was 386 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 5: no savor. The savor, in a way was us, and 387 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 5: we just wanted to outsource it, and I think this 388 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 5: is sort of the inflection point for all of us 389 00:18:57,840 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 5: is like do we want to outsource it? There isn't 390 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 5: going to be a say, and it's certainly not going 391 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 5: to be the Democratic Party or is it going to 392 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 5: be us? And that I think is a big piece 393 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:05,879 Speaker 5: of this. 394 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I mean I also think this is a 395 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:13,440 Speaker 1: terrible moment in American politics. And I mean it really is. 396 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's okay to accept that this is just horrendous. 397 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 1: I mean watching I mean I watched those hearings yesterday, 398 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: and I mean these Republican senators just begging RFK Junior 399 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: just to say that vaccines are okay and you wouldn't, 400 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: I mean the sort of let you know, and begging 401 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 1: Tulcy Gabbard to say that Snowden is a trader and 402 00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:42,280 Speaker 1: she wouldn't. I mean, just like it was so pathetic. 403 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, these people work, they were elected senators. 404 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: I mean, this is like not a great job, and 405 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,479 Speaker 1: they're doing it theoretically because they believe in some things. 406 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,959 Speaker 1: You know, it's just such an exercise and dehumanization. And 407 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: I'm not even fans of these Republican senators. 408 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 5: No, it's not I so I know this thing about it, 409 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 5: and this sort of ties into a piece of this. 410 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,480 Speaker 5: It's like, you know, the same conversation we're having about 411 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,920 Speaker 5: the corporate side and sort of their capitulation. I thought 412 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 5: about that in the context of some of these Republican 413 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 5: leaders as well. So you know, Ted Kruz sits atop 414 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 5: the committee that will have subpoena power over tech, and 415 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 5: you know he's he's been critical of big tech in 416 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,239 Speaker 5: the past and certainly would use subopenas I don't think 417 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 5: to necessarily be a big justice advocate, but there's certainly 418 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,280 Speaker 5: it gives him power and capacity. One thing that the 419 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 5: administration is already is anxious about and is trying to 420 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 5: find a way to strip him away from it, is 421 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 5: to reduce his ability to subpoena big tech companies. It 422 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,400 Speaker 5: seems small, but it's like it just reinforces your point 423 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 5: about how much they're sort of pushing Republicans, and we 424 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 5: have Republican leaders are willingly giving this power over for 425 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 5: whatever short term gambit they think they're going to get 426 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 5: out of it, but ultimately they've either made the assessment 427 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 5: that they're going to become you know, they're going to 428 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 5: go full Lindsey Graham, you know, and they're always going 429 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 5: to tow the line, or they hope in the future 430 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 5: maybe they can have a better terrain to fight on it. 431 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 5: And I don't think that's going to happen. I think 432 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 5: in a weird way, Trump is at his wet right 433 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:03,080 Speaker 5: now and everybody else is at their most potent, and 434 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 5: in three months from now, if we continue on this trajectory, 435 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 5: that will be inverted. 436 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 1: I am not convinced of that because I think ultimately 437 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 1: the key to trump Ism is that he kind of 438 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: blows himself up. Thank God. I mean, that may not 439 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: continue to be true, but what I have noticed in 440 00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: the past is that it's just like with the family businesses, 441 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: he just can't keep it going. Like there's a reason 442 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: he's not maclough right, there's a reason he's not. You know, 443 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:31,600 Speaker 1: there are a lot of real estate families in New 444 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: York who have made billions and billions of dollars who 445 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: are not geniuses. Like it's not a hard it's not 446 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: a hard career to run real estate in a city 447 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: where everything where real estate just gets more and more expensive. 448 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: So what I think is what's interesting about Trump, or 449 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: what may save us, and again I am a cock 450 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: eyede optimist. Is the fact that he is just very 451 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: self destructive and he tends to not be able to 452 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: keep it going. But again, I guess we're going to say, right. 453 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 5: I think that's sort The only thing I would note 454 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,000 Speaker 5: is that perception is reality to an extent in politics. 455 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 5: And the thing that makes me very anxious, and this 456 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 5: is especially tied in with the way the tech companies 457 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 5: have sort of been so quickly, is that the imbalance, 458 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 5: the asymmetry in that landscape is so drastically different. So like, 459 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 5: if you look at left leaning and left aligne sort 460 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 5: of like podcasters shows across the full spectrum, and then 461 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 5: you look at their monthly listens, it's somewhere in the 462 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 5: range of on the high level, about seventy million or 463 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 5: so monthly listens, and aggregate on the sort of the 464 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 5: right leaning side, it's close to three hundred million. And 465 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 5: that's just one data point. I mean, the asymmetry and 466 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 5: that is a fairly narrow lens on what you would 467 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 5: identify as right leading. And that's in part because you know, 468 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 5: and so I think part of it is. And that's 469 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 5: just one data point. But the imbalance there the asymmetry 470 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 5: does give them the ability to either shift blame for 471 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 5: problems or for issues, and I think you're sort of 472 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:56,679 Speaker 5: seeing them begin to plant the seeds of that. So 473 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 5: this idea of like malicious compliance, for instance, that everything 474 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 5: that's gone wrong with our edicts are not a result 475 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 5: of the edict, but rather these deep staters that are 476 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 5: implementing it to hurt people on purpose, to make it 477 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,959 Speaker 5: bad for us. That's very believable. And if you have 478 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 5: a narrative dominance, which he does, you could see how 479 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 5: most many people would buy into that, like, oh, that 480 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 5: kind of makes sense. They always hated him, you know, 481 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 5: so clearly they're trying to sabotage him. And I think 482 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 5: that's the only thing that gives me a little anxiety 483 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 5: there is that even if he's self destructive in a 484 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 5: few months from now, we'll be love to see it. 485 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 5: Will we even know that he's self destructing? 486 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,240 Speaker 1: Right? And that I think is a big scary todd. Well, 487 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 1: there we go. Not great, not great. We love to 488 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: keep from crying. Thank you, Angelo, Thank you. Owen Higgins 489 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: is the author of owned How Tech Billionaires on the 490 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: Right Bought the loudest voices on the Left. Welcome to 491 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: Fast Politics. 492 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 4: Owen, thank you, happy to be here. 493 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,119 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about your book. 494 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 4: The book is called Owen, How tech billionaires on the 495 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 4: right about the loudest voices on the left. And it's 496 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 4: kind of an exploration of both. How Silicon Valley billionaires 497 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 4: like Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Mark Andrees and David Sachs 498 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 4: and others have become more public about their right wing, 499 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 4: in some cases far right views. How they've used their 500 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:24,360 Speaker 4: cash their investments to shape the information and media ecosystem 501 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 4: in the United States and beyond. And I use Glenn 502 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 4: Greenwald and Matt Taibi to prominent independent journalists who rose 503 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 4: to fame. They cannot be bought, right, they cannot be bought. 504 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 4: And I use them being bought to explain this phenomena. 505 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: So how did they get bought? Pick whoever, which one 506 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 1: you want and talk us through it in the vaguest 507 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: possible way. 508 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I would probably say that Greenwald his 509 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 4: independence has been one of the things he's been most 510 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 4: fierce about throughout his career as a journalist, and over time, 511 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 4: I mean, he created his own career really like just 512 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 4: by writing, which which I think is admirable. He was 513 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 4: in the blogisphere in the mid to late two thousands, 514 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 4: joined Salon, then joined The Guardian. Then he broke the 515 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,959 Speaker 4: Snowden story, which catapulted him to global fame, then translated 516 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,639 Speaker 4: that into founding The Intercept with financing from Pierre Ohmadyar 517 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 4: former eBay founder. 518 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: Who's generally thought of as a pretty good guy. 519 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 4: As I say in the book, he's been described by 520 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 4: his peers as perhaps more libertarian than he gives the 521 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 4: impression of in public life, but his investments in media 522 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 4: have kind of tilted to the left, tilted liberal. And 523 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 4: you know, this is another example, getting Glenn Greenwell to 524 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 4: come on board after you know, revealing the Snowden leagues, 525 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 4: which was you know, widely I think and correctly seen 526 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 4: as something that was more left wing than right wing. 527 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 4: He also got Jeremy ska Hill, famous international affairs journalists 528 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 4: as well, and Laura Poitras, a filmmaker, and the three 529 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,240 Speaker 4: of them found the Intercept. Glenn was with The Intercept 530 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 4: until twenty twenty, when he left over editing of his 531 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,679 Speaker 4: article on the Hunter Biden laptop right before the election. 532 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 4: I won't go super into the details, but basically the 533 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 4: editorial stat did not feel that his reporting at the 534 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,439 Speaker 4: time met the factual standards that they needed. They just 535 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 4: didn't know enough of what he was saying. Some of 536 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 4: what he was saying has been born out, so he 537 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 4: tends to use that as a pushback, but at the 538 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 4: time they didn't really have a solid idea that what 539 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 4: he was saying was strictly accurate. But either way, he 540 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 4: had already been kind of tilting to the right. He 541 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 4: had been going on Tucker Carlson. He had been kind 542 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 4: of cultivating this right wing audience. He then moved to Substack, 543 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 4: which at the time was Flora Shamming still is, but 544 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 4: coming off of the maths of investment from Mark Andresen 545 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 4: or funding round men by Andresen and so Greenwall joined there. 546 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,200 Speaker 4: He wasn't entire there by Substack. They didn't pay him 547 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:02,639 Speaker 4: to come. 548 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:04,200 Speaker 1: Right, It was early Substack. 549 00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, But he came over there and established himself and 550 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 4: did play well for a while. And then in May 551 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 4: twenty twenty one, so the following May, so he left 552 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 4: the Intercept, I think November twenty twenty and in May 553 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 4: twenty twenty one, an investment group consisting of in among 554 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 4: other people, the billionaire Peter Thiel and future Vice president 555 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 4: J D Vance invested in this YouTube alternative called Rumble, 556 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 4: and then Rumble took that money and gave deals to people, 557 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 4: including Glenn. In August twenty twenty one, Glenn was announced 558 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 4: as one of the paid deals that they were hanging 559 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,280 Speaker 4: out him alongside Tulsea Gabbard. And if you just kind 560 00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 4: of look, his politics had already been moving to the right. 561 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 4: The things he was saying have been moving to the right, 562 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 4: and I think that he has been moving there ever 563 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 4: since in order to cultivate and to keep the audience 564 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 4: that he has. With a few exceptions, a few issue exceptions, 565 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 4: I think Pali sign and some surveillance stuff, he's kind 566 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:03,439 Speaker 4: of broken with the right a little bit on, but 567 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 4: overall he's been He's been pretty close to the conservative 568 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 4: movement and certainly opposed to liberals, which I think is 569 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 4: kind of more maybe how his politics manifest themselves. 570 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: You know, again, I'm not a fan of any of 571 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: these people, but I'm just curious, how is he bought 572 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: by the right. I mean, it sounds like, you know, 573 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,760 Speaker 1: he's made money where the money is and he's a 574 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: kind of contrarian, which a lot of those guys are. 575 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,359 Speaker 1: But how is he sort of bought by them? 576 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 4: Well, I think the Rumble investment and then him going 577 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 4: over to Rumble is a pretty clear one to one. 578 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 4: You know, this is a in all but name and 579 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 4: unabashedly right wing video publication, and they gave him money 580 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 4: to come over there. He's still on his deal there. 581 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 4: He actually had to leave substacks, so he consolidate his 582 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 4: writing over there as well on a platform called Locals 583 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 4: that they bought. So I think that the as far 584 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 4: as the money goes, I mean, he's he's clearly making 585 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 4: money from a website that promotes and kind of wakingly 586 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 4: markets itself to the right wing. So I feel like 587 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 4: that's kind of a pretty clear one to one as 588 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 4: far as like how this comes across. I did a 589 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 4: study back, and I believe this was early twenty twenty one, 590 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 4: maybe might have been twenty twenty two, where I looked 591 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,680 Speaker 4: over his tweets and how he was talking about Fox News, 592 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 4: which would have him on and that kind of helped 593 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 4: him to build up his writing audis as well. Tucker 594 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 4: Carlson was a big ally of his and would have 595 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 4: him on his show often, and so I did analysis 596 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 4: of his positive and negative tweets about the network, and 597 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 4: you could just see, like I made a whole graph 598 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 4: of it, and you could just see them just spiking, 599 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 4: going huge, like either cumulative or not culative. Once he 600 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 4: started going on Fox, he's stopped being critical of it 601 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 4: and basically added like an unpaid cheerleader, almost like an 602 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 4: employee right of the network. But I think that that 603 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 4: is instructive. That's telling because it shows how Glenn is 604 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 4: willing to adjust his message and adjust the way that 605 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 4: he talks about things and who he allies himself with 606 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 4: depending on if they are benefiting them. Pierre Amyar, who 607 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 4: we were just talking about right, the funder of the Intercept. 608 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 4: When Glenn worked for the Intercept, he never had a 609 00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 4: bad thing to say about Pierre. He would say occasionally, 610 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 4: you know, we may disagree on something, but Pierre always 611 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 4: lets me, like do whatever I want. Once he was 612 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 4: away from the Intercept, his rhetoric about ah Mijar became harsh. 613 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 4: He attacked him. He attacked many of his former colleagues 614 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 4: at the Intercept. And look, I'm not saying that they 615 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 4: did or didn't deserve any of his criticism. I'm not 616 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 4: making a judgment on that. What I'm saying is that 617 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,959 Speaker 4: the decision to go after them once he was no 618 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,960 Speaker 4: longer employed by the intercept the decision to go after 619 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 4: them once Pierre al Midyar's money was no longer funding 620 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 4: his lifestyle as opposed to going after them before about 621 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 4: all of these problems that he said that he had 622 00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 4: about the under seven about Omar, I think that just 623 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 4: kind of says a lot about the way that he 624 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 4: functions in this in this world, and the way that 625 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 4: he picks and chooses his targets. 626 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: Right. So basically they get them by employing them. 627 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, they get them by employing them. They get them 628 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 4: by kind of introducing them into this network, this world 629 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 4: where there's a lot of money to be had by 630 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 4: you know, the saying things that they like to hear. 631 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 4: So you know, like not only does Glenn you know, 632 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 4: have this contract with Rumble, but he's also paid to 633 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 4: talk to events like Blagi Trinavisan's Network State conference had 634 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 4: had him as a speaker the All In Podcast, which 635 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 4: is fund which is founded by David Sachs, who's a billionaire. 636 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 4: Like they had Glenn come to one of their conferences. 637 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 4: I mean once you start to understand, like the way 638 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:51,840 Speaker 4: they all like and this isn't this is not at 639 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 4: all unique to this space, but like this the speaking circuit. 640 00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 4: You'll see this liberals and conservatives do. It's once you're 641 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,040 Speaker 4: in this kind of world. There are a lot of 642 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 4: financial opportunities here that are not always you know, kind 643 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 4: of one to one, like you're being employed by it, 644 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 4: like you're within this world. 645 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: The Barry Wise phenomenon. 646 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, and Barry features, I mean Barry and Matt 647 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 4: Taibi are two people who have made most of their 648 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 4: money using crowdfunding, right, or most of their money recently 649 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 4: by using prowdfunding by using substacks newsletter service as a 650 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 4: way of getting money from subscribers. They didn't get paid 651 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 4: by substack to come over there. They pay substack a cotton. 652 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 4: Substack facilitates their payments. Right. So if you're just kind 653 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 4: of looking at that, you might say, oh, well, you know, 654 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 4: this is just a situation where you know, they just 655 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 4: have an audience and they are working with that audience. 656 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,040 Speaker 4: But then you have Elon Musk making the decision to 657 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 4: choose both of them to publicize the Twitter files, right, 658 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 4: These highly curated tranch of emails and messages that told 659 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 4: a specific story that he wanted to be told, and 660 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 4: they were able to use that to get larger audiences 661 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 4: and to appeal to a right wing audience, and in turn, 662 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 4: they told the story that Elon wanted to have out there. 663 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 4: And so I think that's another example of like how 664 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 4: they were paid, like they were chosen for this. Tayibe 665 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,960 Speaker 4: was chosen because David Sachs told Musk that Taiebe was 666 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 4: somebody who Musk should give the files. Due Weiss was 667 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 4: chosen because Mark Andreesen told Elon Musk, this is someone 668 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 4: you should give the files to. So if you start 669 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 4: to kind of put all this stuff together, you can 670 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 4: see the network kind of working here in this kind 671 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 4: of like patronage and backslapping and helping out and everybody. 672 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 4: You know. Barry Weiss's Free Press just had a funding 673 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 4: round last year led by Andresen that valued the website 674 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 4: at one hundred million dollars. I think they raised fifteen million. 675 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 4: It's very like clear, I think, what's happening here. 676 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're getting funded because they ideologically reflect the ethos 677 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: of these far right billionaires. Do a minute on the 678 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 1: Twitter files because I think that's pretty interesting. So they 679 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: gave them these sort of pieces of Twitter stuff in 680 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,760 Speaker 1: order to prove a central thesis that Twitter was mean 681 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 1: to conservatives, right, And I feel like it didn't quite 682 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: go that way. 683 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 4: I did it, Yeah, I mean there's a reason that 684 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 4: Tybee chose to lead with the Hunter Biden laptop, right, 685 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,840 Speaker 4: like this this was a conservative story that they wanted 686 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 4: to put out there. Elon made sure that the time 687 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 4: line that they were allowed to access, you know, had 688 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 4: certain parameters, made sure that there were certain things that 689 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 4: they couldn't ask for. Un sure that he picked them 690 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 4: because there were certain things that they wouldn't ask for, right, 691 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 4: Like there are like certain activist groups on the left 692 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 4: who would have been who were suppressed by Twitter for 693 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 4: one reason or another. Like their suppression was not something 694 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 4: that Musk wanted to have out there, and not something 695 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 4: that Tybee and Weiss were interested in doing, I think 696 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,600 Speaker 4: for various reasons, including the fact that they just wanted 697 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 4: to continue having access what the files purported to show. 698 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 4: If you believe Tyee's kind of spent on this and 699 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 4: Weiss's to it to a degree, is this kind of 700 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 4: overarching liberal conspiracy within Twitter and the government which was 701 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:08,959 Speaker 4: at the time run by Trump like the time period 702 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,360 Speaker 4: they working for, but somehow was still controlled by liberals, 703 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 4: and that this government and Twitter conspiracy, like all these 704 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 4: bureaucrats and faceless Twitter employees were working together to suppress 705 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 4: right wing commentary, whether it was about COVID, or it 706 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 4: was about Hunter Biden, or it was about kind of 707 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 4: any kind of criticism of the liberal consensus. You know, look, 708 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 4: on the face of it, considering that they were talking 709 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 4: about the Trump administration's time in office, I think this 710 00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 4: is kind of ridiculous. But they didn't really provide much 711 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 4: in the way of proof. They had. They certainly showed 712 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 4: in the case of the Hunter Bydon Laptop. Tybee was 713 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 4: able to show the people behind Twitter trying to figure 714 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 4: out how to deal with this reporting. And the reason 715 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 4: that they were trying to figure out how to deal 716 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,960 Speaker 4: with this reporting was not because they were necessarily trying 717 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 4: to help or hinder Biden or help her hinder Trump. 718 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 4: It was more is this real and is this the 719 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 4: kind of you know, the political rat fucking that we 720 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,000 Speaker 4: want to be like allow on this platform. And so 721 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:15,560 Speaker 4: Tayebe presented this instead as an example of this malfeasance 722 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 4: this conspiracy that involved Twitter and the government at the 723 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 4: same time. 724 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,919 Speaker 1: But it really just involved Twitter, right, it didn't really 725 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: involve the government. Yeah, I guess, well, the government was 726 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,919 Speaker 1: asking about the COVID stuff, so I guess it's sort 727 00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: of dead. 728 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 4: Well, yeah, that was the stuff the Weiss I think 729 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 4: did more of. But I just just to go back 730 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 4: to Tybee for a saying, I mean, you know, he 731 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 4: found examples of First of all, there were more examples 732 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 4: of the Trump campaign asking to take stuff down. But 733 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 4: for some reason, even though he admitted that in his reporting, 734 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 4: that wasn't the lead. But secondly, in the reporting around 735 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 4: Hunter Biden, there was also the question of revenge for 736 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,319 Speaker 4: the question of you know, there are images of this 737 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 4: man naked or you know, involved in sexual acts activity 738 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:06,720 Speaker 4: that were released without his permission, and like under the 739 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,399 Speaker 4: rules of Twitter, the user rules, and also I think 740 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 4: you know laws in some states like you can't broadcast 741 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 4: that that's protected, so they were asking for that to 742 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 4: be taken down. This was presented as some evidence of 743 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 4: malfeasance on the part of the Bind campaign. I just 744 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 4: don't think that that is accurate or fair. As far 745 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 4: as the COVID stuff went, I mean, maybe there's a 746 00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 4: little more solid ground to stand on as far as 747 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,960 Speaker 4: calling that maybe selective censorship. Your mileage may vary on 748 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 4: whether or not you think that that is appropriate during 749 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 4: a pandemic or not. I mean, you can make an 750 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 4: argument either way. I'm not particularly put out to make it. 751 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 4: To make the argument, I. 752 00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,120 Speaker 1: Personally believe both that it should have been taken down 753 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: and that it was probably ultimately bad that it was 754 00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:51,840 Speaker 1: taken down. Right, Like, you're in the middle of a pandemic, 755 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: there are not great choices. I just think everybody did 756 00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: what they thought was the right thing, and some of 757 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: it turned out to have larger consequences. But so all 758 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,319 Speaker 1: of this is sort of they just went to where 759 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: the money is. Is ultimately your thesis. 760 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,360 Speaker 4: That's I mean, that's part of my thesis. They I 761 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 4: think there were other reasons that they turned to the 762 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:12,960 Speaker 4: right that I get into in the book, you know, 763 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:16,360 Speaker 4: like frustration with liberals and Democrats for the way that 764 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 4: they endorsed a lot of the policies during Bush that 765 00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 4: they had opposed at the time, right right, right. 766 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: Right, for not being truly ideologically pure, which is a 767 00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: real complaint. 768 00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, for Glenn especially, I think that that was a motivator. Also, 769 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 4: the democratic reaction to Trump the first time, I think 770 00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 4: was also a motivator for him. That second one as 771 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 4: well was for Tybee, and Tybee also had to deal 772 00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 4: with kind of being canceled over his former writing when 773 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 4: he was in Russia. So it's not kind of like 774 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 4: a black and white thing where it's like this happened 775 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 4: and then this happened, right, It's not like a one 776 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,640 Speaker 4: to one. It's like there were a lot of different factors. 777 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 4: But at that time, these billionaires also had their ideological project, 778 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 4: which was to weaken and to decentralize the both the 779 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,799 Speaker 4: mainstream and critical independent media, and in order to do that, 780 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 4: they needed to break down those institutions a little bit. 781 00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 4: And you know, putting forward a client sycophantic alternative media 782 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 4: structure that they could control or at least that they 783 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,719 Speaker 4: could fund, meant that they were able to kind of 784 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 4: damage these institutions. And you know, having big names like 785 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 4: Tybee and Greenwald helped that process along. And I think 786 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 4: that that is part of the motivator for them. 787 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,120 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, 788 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: thank you. 789 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, my pleasure, thank you for having me on No. 790 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,480 Speaker 1: Good Jesse Cannon by jug Fast. 791 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 2: So the Trump administration's halt of CDC Weekly Scientific Reports 792 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 2: is stalling bird flu studies. As this is like crossing 793 00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,319 Speaker 2: over breeds and like we're seeing so much evidence of 794 00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 2: like why we need government to work, and this, uh, 795 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 2: this feels so we're. 796 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,840 Speaker 1: All really really worried about bird flu. Look, nobody wants 797 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: the bird flu, nobody wants a pandemic. But Trump has 798 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:14,880 Speaker 1: started deciding that if so, CDC's weekly Scientific Reports will 799 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: not be published. This will stall bird flu studies. Trump 800 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,600 Speaker 1: administration has re intervened in the release of important studies 801 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 1: on bird flu. The thinking here is if no one 802 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: knows it's a pandemic, then I guess it will never 803 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: be a pandemic. I mean, this is so stupid and 804 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 1: self defeating. And one of the studies would reveal whether 805 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: veterinarians who treat cattle have been unknowingly infected by the 806 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: bird flu virus. Another report documents cases in which people 807 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,919 Speaker 1: carrying the virus might have infected their pet cats. Well, 808 00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:53,439 Speaker 1: this seems really fucking bad and there we go. 809 00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 2: Welcome all yeah, and this mucking up the works is 810 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 2: doing all sorts of things. My sister texted to us 811 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 2: today that they stopped giving reportings on shootings, of course, 812 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 2: because they have to also pretend that's not happening too. 813 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is just so fucking bad. It is really bad. 814 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 3: Reality doesn't happen if you just pretend it's not happening. 815 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, it still does though. That's about news. 816 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:19,280 Speaker 3: That's the bad news. 817 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,279 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 818 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Saturday to hear the best 819 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If 820 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,520 Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend 821 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.