1 00:00:00,960 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Have you ever tried to explain this world to children? 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: I have kids, two of them. Have you ever sat 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,000 Speaker 1: down with a kid and tried to explain why there 4 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: are Nazis marching in the exact place where you took 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 1: them to the farmer's market and waited in line for 6 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:22,160 Speaker 1: papoosas Have you ever tried to explain how a person 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: who lies, assaults, insults, grifts, fakes and hates can be 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,400 Speaker 1: elected into one of the most powerful jobs in the world. 9 00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: Have you ever tried to explain to them why they 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: should be good people, How they should be good people 11 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 1: in a world where there is so much bad, where 12 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: they see people who look like them shot by police, 13 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: murdered by vigilantes, run over at rallies. I have, And 14 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: even though my whole job as a writer involves being 15 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: so called good with words, there are no words good 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: enough to explain why things are the way they are 17 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: and what we should do about it. It's too much, 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:09,279 Speaker 1: it's too big, it's too overwhelming. Maybe you don't have kids, 19 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: maybe you don't have to make this world makes sense 20 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: to children. So I ask you, how then, do you 21 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: make sense of it to yourself? Do you hide? Do 22 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 1: you tell yourself that everything is fine. Do you convince 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: yourself that you're doing everything you can? And do you 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: make excuses for when you're not? I mean, do you 25 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 1: know what to do like today, like right now, in 26 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: this moment to help. Do you know how to be 27 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: a good person? Are you a good person? Because me, 28 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: I'm not so sure. I'm not so sure about any 29 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: of us. What does a good person in this world 30 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: even look like? I mean, what would they tell you 31 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: if you could find the time to sit down and 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:09,359 Speaker 1: listen to them? Did you ever have a scary dream? 33 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: What did you do about it? There might have been 34 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: one good guy on television of all places. Did you 35 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: tell the people you love about it? The people who 36 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: love you, this old white guy in a zip up 37 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: cardigan and blue tennis shoes who played with puppets. When 38 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: I was a little boy and I had a scary dream, 39 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,320 Speaker 1: sometimes I'd get some paper and crayons and I would 40 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: draw pictures about my dream. I mean, is this the guy, like, 41 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: is this quiet dude staring into a camera and talking 42 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: slowly about crayons? Is this the guy who can stand 43 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: up to our very worst? And sometimes that would help 44 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: so much that I was able to get back to 45 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: sleep real soon. Mr Rogers made it seem so easy, 46 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: so casual, to know how you're feeling, to be comfortable 47 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,799 Speaker 1: in your own skin. But it's not easy. It takes work. 48 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: And that's actually what Mr rogers Neighborhood was all about. 49 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: He was showing us how to do that work. Really 50 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: helps to talk about the way you feel, because everybody 51 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:24,399 Speaker 1: has feelings all the time. In a time like this, 52 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: Fred Rogers has something we desperately need. I think the 53 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: real genius of Mr Rogers having done his show and 54 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: having it be targeted towards children is that what he 55 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: has done is created a template for just how to 56 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: recognize your feelings and know what it is, which is 57 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: basically how you get to all the other stuff. It's 58 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: how you grow. He taught us how to plant seeds. 59 00:03:56,920 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: He taught us to plant seeds, seeds that were are 60 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: supposed to blossom into healthy, safe, caring, loving feelings for 61 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: ourselves and then for all of our neighbors. And he 62 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: he had three decades on television to show us, to 63 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: convince us, to guide us into making the kind of 64 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: world he dreamed of. And yet here we are in 65 00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: a world that is well it's not Mr Rogers neighborhood. 66 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: I'm Carvel Wallace and this is Finding Fred, a podcast 67 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: about Fred Rogers from I Heart Media and Fatherly in 68 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: partnership with Transmitter Media. I'm a writer. I got my 69 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: start by writing about music for MTV and Pitchfork in 70 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: places like that, But for a few years I was 71 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 1: also the parenting advice columnists for Slate, and every week 72 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 1: we would read dozens of letters from desperate, frightened, weary 73 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: parents wondering how to raise good people, how to be 74 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: good people, And so I think a lot about what 75 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:09,880 Speaker 1: stands in the way for them for us. But the 76 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: other thing is I grew up as a complete TV nerd. 77 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: I mean TV might have had more of an impact 78 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: on how I understand the world than any adult in 79 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:24,360 Speaker 1: my life. And so now that I am the adult, 80 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: the parent, even I find myself wondering what TV has 81 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: to say to my kids, to our kids, about what 82 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: we can do about the world we live in. And 83 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: so that's how I get to Fred Rogers, a guy 84 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 1: who made TV about this very question. You might have 85 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 1: noticed there is an explosion of Mr Rogers nostalgia going around, 86 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: But I'm curious about it like, why now Fred has 87 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: been dead for almost twenty years and there are suddenly 88 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: movies and documentaries and book Why is it that generations 89 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: of adults are all collectively having this nostalgia moment right now? 90 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:11,280 Speaker 1: I was really interested in feelings as a kid because 91 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,359 Speaker 1: nobody talked about feelings. But I seem to have so many. 92 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,240 Speaker 1: This is Ashley c Ford. She makes her living by 93 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: thinking deeply about how people feel and trying to communicate 94 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: something about how that impacts their inner lives and outer lives. 95 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: I am a writer of essays, articles and a memoir 96 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: and I am a Fred Rogers enthusiasts. What does that 97 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: mean of Fred Rogers enthusiast? Well, I think of being 98 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: an enthusiast as being a person who likes a thing 99 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:51,159 Speaker 1: from many, many different angles. I remember being very very 100 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: little and like a nap time when I went to 101 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: a babysitter. She would put on Mr Rogers and I 102 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: was like, YEO, this is not going to put me 103 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: to sleep. I'm fascinated, but I loved Mr Rogers and 104 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: so I was like, if you want to put me 105 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: to sleep, you better put on popa Beaver, story Time 106 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: or something. Because Mr Rogers ain't it, lady. He talking 107 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: about all kinds of stuff that I'm interested in. You know, 108 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: lots of kids have had that experience. I mean millions actually, 109 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 1: but actually has talked about how as an adult she 110 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: found help from Mr Rogers. I feel like, at different 111 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: stages of my life, I have come to understand the 112 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: man and his impact. And I almost want to say 113 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: the genius of his empathy. Like we talk about genius 114 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: and so many capacities when it comes to other things 115 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: and things that we think of as you know, quote 116 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: unquote hard, but empathy is really hard. And talking to 117 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: people about empathy and getting people to understand empathy is 118 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: so hard. And this man was, I believe, a genius 119 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: at it, and not just because of innate talent or inclination, 120 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: but because he valued it and he committed to it 121 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: and he worked really hard at it. This I love 122 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: this idea of being a genius of empathy. And to 123 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: be a genius of something like empathy feels like a 124 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: new idea because we tend to think of the realm 125 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: of feelings as not requiring work or clarity or discipline. 126 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: And problem, yeah, yeah, here's our problem. And I want 127 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: to ask you about that I want to. I mean, like, 128 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 1: first in your own experience, what makes empathy difficult? Like, 129 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 1: what do you find empathy difficult or something that requires 130 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: work rather? And if so, what makes empathy difficult? Empathy 131 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: is difficult because people don't have empathy for themselves. M 132 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: let's talk about empathy. That word is used everywhere today, 133 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: so much so that it seems to have lost its power, 134 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: because actually it's a pretty radical idea that we can 135 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,479 Speaker 1: so closely identify with another person that we can understand 136 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: their feelings. A lot of us aren't even comfortable with 137 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: our own feelings anger, fear, sorrow, maybe even certain kinds 138 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,840 Speaker 1: of happiness. And if we're not comfortable with our feelings, 139 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 1: then we're not really comfortable with ourselves, are we? So 140 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: then how can we be comfortable with other people? When 141 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: Ashley came back to Mr Rogers as an adult, she 142 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 1: realized that these were the questions he was grappling with. Yes, 143 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: watching the show did feel like being with an old, 144 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: caring friend, but there was way more going on there 145 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: than just the warm and fuzzies. The first episode is 146 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: my favorite episode of Mr. Rogers, and I think what 147 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: Mr Rogers did was established something in that first episode 148 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 1: when he sings the song I like you as you are. 149 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: I like you as you are exactly and precisely. I 150 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 1: think you turned out nicely, and I like you as 151 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,359 Speaker 1: you are. I do. The first time I saw the episode, 152 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 1: though I wasn't a kid, I was an adult. I 153 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: had had a really, really tough day and I decided 154 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: to take a bubble bath and have a glass of 155 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: wine and just be in the tub and take care 156 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 1: of myself. But I didn't want to be like alone 157 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: with my thoughts, because you know when you have like 158 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: those sort of stressful, hard days that you're like, I 159 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: need to watch anything, I need to do anything, because 160 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:43,640 Speaker 1: being in my head, my head is not a safe 161 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 1: space right now. And so I was like, oh, I'm 162 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: gonna set up the computer. I'm just gonna play something. 163 00:10:49,480 --> 00:10:51,960 Speaker 1: And I was like, what can I play that would 164 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 1: just be so gentle? What can I watch that would 165 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: be so gentle that it just it won't make right 166 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 1: now out harder for me? And I just thought of 167 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: Mr Rogers. Clicked the first episode of Mr. Rogers, and 168 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,439 Speaker 1: I'm crying in the bathtub. I like you, Yes, I do. 169 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 1: I like you? What I felt like I rediscovered a 170 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: piece of myself, like a part of myself, which happens 171 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: as you age, like you start to think about all 172 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: the things that you've cast off for reasons that when 173 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: you look back, or like that was to fit into 174 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: something else. And I miss that thing and I want 175 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: it back. And I'm sitting there and I'm listening to 176 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: this song I like You as you are, and I'm remembering, 177 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: Holy sh it, I used to like myself. I wouldn't 178 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: want to change you or even rearrange. I used to 179 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: really really like who I was, And I don't feel 180 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: like that right now. And it was the beginning of 181 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: trying to like myself again. Like you, Yes, I do. 182 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: I like you? Oh you, I do? I love you? 183 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: Like you as you are. You like what we've done 184 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:48,719 Speaker 1: in here, We'll be right back. That first episode of Mr. 185 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 1: Rogers Neighborhood aired nationally in nineteen and the world in 186 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: it felt probably a lot like the world does now, scary, 187 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: k aotic, and unspeakably violent. There was the war in Vietnam. 188 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,560 Speaker 1: Dr Martin Luther King Junior's assassination and the protests and 189 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: uprisings that came after. Anger and confusion hung over a 190 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: lot of adults, and Fred's revolutionary move was to recognize 191 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: that their kids were probably feeling it too. The very 192 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: first week of the show when it premiered, had to 193 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: do with the ruler of the make believe land, King 194 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 1: Friday the thirteenth, building a wall to keep out people 195 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 1: and ideas that he didn't want in his kingdom. And 196 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: now that's creepy when you think about it. In David 197 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: being Cooley knows a big TV moment when he sees one. 198 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: He's watched a ton of them. He's been a television 199 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: critic for over forty years. And yeah, he loves the Sopranos, 200 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: and he loves Breaking Bad, and he loves all the 201 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: prestige television about people murdering one another and dissolving bodies 202 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: and acid or whatever. But he's also fascinated with the 203 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,439 Speaker 1: first week of Mr. Rogers Neighborhood and the things Fred 204 00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: Rogers was able to communicate in a land of make believe. 205 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: Lady Elaine has been up to her tricks again, and 206 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: she's moved the Eiffel Tower on the wrong side of 207 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: the castle, and the tree has gone away from over 208 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: here to the middle, and the clock is over here 209 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: in the fountain. Well, it's just all mixed erect. He 210 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: must be really upset. He's furious about it, and he 211 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 1: has established border guards in the neighborhood. Make believe that 212 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: sounds like a war. The people in his kingdom. The 213 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: other puppets, the other characters send out balloons. Boy, do 214 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: you ever look nifty with all those blows over the 215 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 1: wall that are nice supportive balloons, like you know, we 216 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: like you, we want to get to know you. And 217 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: they decide a wall and a barrier isn't a good thing. Now, 218 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: this was, you know, and it's dealing with Vietnam essentially, 219 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: but it still resonates, I mean much more than I'm 220 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: comfortable with it. Resonating. Vietnam was just one in what 221 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: seemed like a laundry list of dark and difficult news 222 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: items in because earlier that summer, Bobby Kennedy was shot 223 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: and Fred Rogers asked for a prime time special because 224 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: he understood that even if children were too young to 225 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: understand who Bobby Kennedy was or what had happened, they 226 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: would feel the vibe in their own homes about how 227 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: upset their parents were, how upset uh they're older siblings were, 228 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: and wanted to talk about it. So in one sketch 229 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: he has Daniel stripe a tiger. Just a minute, I 230 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: want to show you simply asking Betty Aberlin, one of 231 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: the human people who visits in the neighborhood, and it's 232 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: a balloon, could you blow it up for you? Asked 233 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: her to blow up a balloon and then let the 234 00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: air out and do it a few times. And he 235 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: was concerned about something this little, this little puppet. What 236 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 1: about your air? My my air inside me? Mm hmm. 237 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: What if you blow all your air out, then you 238 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: won't have any left, just like the balloon. But people 239 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: aren't like balloons, Daniel. When we blow air out, we 240 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: get some more back in. Oh, what does assassination mean? 241 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: And this is out of a children's hand puppet. As 242 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: far as you know that any other children shows address 243 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:12,640 Speaker 1: that topic, No, and and and I've looked. I just 244 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: ask you in regardless of what uh the big news 245 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: event is, can you imagine any children's television program that's 246 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 1: on right now coming up almost with like a news 247 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:36,400 Speaker 1: special addressing the emotional consequences of it. It doesn't exist. 248 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,400 Speaker 1: This special ran the evening after Bobby Kennedy died Fred 249 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: Rogers wrote this scene overnight. He was so tuned into 250 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: his audience that he knew that this was something that 251 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 1: children and their families absolutely needed to hear. Fred Rogers 252 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:00,440 Speaker 1: empathized with the kids who were feeling so scared and confused, 253 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,199 Speaker 1: so he talked right to those kids, and then he 254 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: talked to their parents too about how to help with 255 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: the children. The best thing in the world is for 256 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: your children to be included in your family ways of 257 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: coping with the problems that that present themselves any time, 258 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 1: but particularly now in this very difficult time in our nation. 259 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: Fred Rogers invented a neighborhood where people got together to 260 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: talk about the things that confused them or scared them, 261 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: and he used this place to show his viewers what 262 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:52,080 Speaker 1: you have to do to work through your emotions. And 263 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:57,479 Speaker 1: in doing that he was able to communicate complex concepts, moral, 264 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,879 Speaker 1: even spiritual concepts, excepts that even adults are still struggling 265 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: to get a hold of. Empathy is about like sort 266 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 1: of finding the space between the parts that connect right, 267 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: Like we know as humans that we are connected to 268 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: each other inextricably and irrevocably. Like we know that because 269 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: we have to live in the world together and we 270 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: have to rely on each other. I UM, in working 271 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: on this project, I'm like really struck with what seems 272 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: to me an apparent paradox. I think that this question 273 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 1: of empathy feels so complicated for some people because on 274 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 1: the one hand, it's like, are you saying we should 275 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 1: have empathy for for rapists and racists and violent people 276 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: and white supremacists. I think that makes people feel panicked 277 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,159 Speaker 1: about the idea of empathy, and I want to explore 278 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: that a little bit with you, Like, how do you 279 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 1: see those ideas working together? Well, let me start here. 280 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: I'll start by saying, um, and I guess I'll just 281 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: say whatever I say, and you guys can decide whether 282 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: or not that's not appropriate. UM. My father has was 283 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: in prison from the time I was about oh six 284 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:18,920 Speaker 1: months old until I was almost thirty, and my dad 285 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: was I found out when I was fourteen years old 286 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 1: that my dad was in prison for sexual assault, that 287 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 1: that's why he was there, and that that's why he 288 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: would be there for however long. And my dad had 289 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: also written me letters up until that point my entire life. 290 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 1: I mean, just so many letters. You're the best girl 291 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: in the world. I love you so much. You're my 292 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: favorite girl. Um. I think you're amazing. Never forget that 293 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: your dad loves you. I'm thinking of you all the time. 294 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: Nothing is better than your smile, you know, like all 295 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: this kinds of stuff, and that had been to be 296 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: perfectly honest, like the basis of my self esteem, and 297 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 1: then to find out that this was true about my 298 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 1: father was really really tough for me, but it started 299 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:09,880 Speaker 1: the beginning of a real understanding the complexity of humanity 300 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: and that a person can be one person's hero and 301 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: another person's worst nightmare and their monster and the thing 302 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: that was hiding in the dark, and both of those 303 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,439 Speaker 1: things can be true about a person right like it 304 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: has to be, Like there was no there was no 305 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: other way to see this. He has both done a 306 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: bad thing and he a terrible thing, a monstrous thing, 307 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:40,119 Speaker 1: and he has also, you know, been the thing that 308 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 1: up into this point has kept me from feeling like 309 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: I was alone in the world. And the truth is 310 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: we're connected to these people for better or worse. We 311 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: all want to be good, to be friendly, to be neighbors, 312 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 1: at least most of us. But when we see other 313 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: people acting well bad, we get hurt, we lose our 314 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: own balance, we get mad. There are a lot of 315 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: reactions to the state of our country, the state of 316 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: the world, the state of society, all those things that 317 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: are a lot of reactions right now that it is 318 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:22,000 Speaker 1: perfectly understandable for people to be this angry. And so 319 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: I don't really blame the people who are kind of 320 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: hot headed and lose their minds, or you know, like 321 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: or or are so seems so consumed by their anger 322 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: that they're more angry than alive. Like, I don't blame them, 323 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: but I do always think, Man, who's going to be there? 324 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 1: And how are they going to deal when the anger 325 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: stops being enough? Because it'll never be enough. It will 326 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: never ever, ever, ever, ever be enough. What do you 327 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: do with the man that you've feel when you feel 328 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: so mad you could bite me, when the whole wide 329 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 1: world seems wrong, and nothing you do seems very what 330 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: do you do with the man you feel? It's a 331 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:21,719 Speaker 1: question that preoccupied Fred Rogers. He wrote a song about it. 332 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 1: He felt so strongly about it that he recited the 333 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: lyrics to that song in front of a Senate committee 334 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: hearing in You Got the Flaw. It's a famous bit 335 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: of footage, and we'll return to it again. But I'm 336 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: struck that this is one of the first times Fred 337 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,719 Speaker 1: Rogers was really explicit about what he was doing with 338 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: his TV programs. And I feel that if we in 339 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: public television can only make it clear that feelings are 340 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: mentionable and manageable, we will have done a great service 341 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: for mental health. Uh. I think that it's much more 342 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: dramatic that two men could be working out their feelings 343 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: of anger, much more dramatic than showing something of gunfire. 344 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: Could I tell you the words of one of the songs, 345 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: which I feel is very important. This has to do 346 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: with that good feeling of control which I feel that 347 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: that children need to know is there. And it starts 348 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: out what do you do with the mad that you feel? 349 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: And that first line came straight from a child? What 350 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: do you do with the mad that you feel? When 351 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 1: you feel so mad you could bite, When the whole 352 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: wide world seems oh so wrong, and nothing you do 353 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: seems very right? What do you do? Do you punch 354 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: a bag? Do you pound some clay or some dough? 355 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: Do you round up friends for a game of tag 356 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 1: or see how fast you go? It's great to be 357 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: able to stop when you've planned a thing that's wrong, 358 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: and be able to do something else instead, And think 359 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: this song I can stop when I want to, can 360 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 1: stop when I wish, can stop, stop, stop any time, 361 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: And what a good feeling to feel, And what a 362 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: good feeling to feel like this and know that the 363 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:31,959 Speaker 1: failing is really mine. I guess that makes me think 364 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: a lot about the force of anger and the violence 365 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: and ugliness that anger can cause. And here's this person 366 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: sort of standing at the riverhead of anger and wanting 367 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: to divert it. And I think it's a fascinating idea. 368 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 1: And I want to ask you, what do you do 369 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: Ashley with the mad that you feel? Oh? My god, 370 00:25:53,600 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: I think because anger is a thing that I had 371 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: to teach myself, give myself permission to feel in my adulthood, 372 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: because I grew up in a very angry household where 373 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: anger was the emotion. Did you um? But every day 374 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:24,560 Speaker 1: I I think what I have learned to do with 375 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: my anger is to talk to it, which sounds so 376 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: I know that it sounds a little booboo, but hey, 377 00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: this is Mr Rogers, Um. But I do I talk 378 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: to my anger because what I've what I've essentially learned 379 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 1: is that every emotion is just trying to tell you something. 380 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: And when I'm angry, I think it's trying to tell 381 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:48,440 Speaker 1: me what I care about. It's trying to tell me 382 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: what's important to me. Years ago, um I was really angry. 383 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: I was working at a media company and the Ferguson 384 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: uprising was happening, and the news room was covering it. 385 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: We were all talking about it, and I had a 386 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: conversation with a boss who told me that they did 387 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: not want me to tweet out the words black Lives 388 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,879 Speaker 1: Matter because it was political and it could affect my 389 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: colleagues ability to do their job. And I remember feeling 390 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: so angry at the implication that I could choose. That's 391 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: not just a choice. And I think that's when I 392 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: just got to it, why, where I was just like, 393 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: you know what I can, I'm gonna do something, and 394 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:51,720 Speaker 1: it's going to be something that they're not going to 395 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: be able to do anything about. I ended up raising 396 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: about half a million dollars for the Ferguson Library because 397 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: it was a really safe place for children. Schools were 398 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: closed and teachers were going to the library and just 399 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,959 Speaker 1: sending emails to parents and saying, hey, if you need 400 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 1: to bring your kids to the library, we're just all 401 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: going to go to the library. And it's not that 402 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 1: it makes the anger go away. But what it does 403 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: is it it makes the anger not feel chaotic. I'm 404 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: giving it a job so that I don't have to 405 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: live within in my body. What do you do with 406 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: the man that you feel? What do you do with 407 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: the sadness, the frustration? What do you do with the 408 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: joy and this surprise or the love that you feel? 409 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: Over something like nine episodes, Fred Rogers used the language 410 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: of children and the land of make believe to talk 411 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: about feelings. But this is not light work. Mr Rogers 412 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: Neighborhood was not a simple show, and Mr Rogers Fred 413 00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: Rogers was not a simple man. He was a preacher 414 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:16,719 Speaker 1: who did his best work on television. He was a 415 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,400 Speaker 1: wildly talented musician and composer who wrote songs primarily heard 416 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: by four year olds. He was deeply involved with people 417 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,840 Speaker 1: who were transforming the very way we think about children 418 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: and learning. Fred Rogers was a radical in a sense. 419 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: He was spiritual. He was revolutionary. I mean he might 420 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: have even been subversive. Get scared me, get mad if 421 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: we get too scared about fights, will never do things 422 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: together ever. Yeah, I think now right, I think this 423 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: is the calming down way to say I love you. 424 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 1: Fred Rogers left us an enormous body of work, a 425 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,840 Speaker 1: road map. I think that we can revisit to see 426 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 1: what we can learn that still applies as much today 427 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: as it did in n So we're going to talk 428 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: to the people who knew him best. What was true 429 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: about Fred Rogers is he was he was tuned in 430 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: at a deeper level than most people in the daytime. 431 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: I was learning this complex child development theory in grad school, 432 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: and at night I would come into the control room 433 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: and I would see Fred live out all the things 434 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: I was learning about. We'll also seek out people like 435 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 1: Ashley and others who grew up with Mr Rogers, people 436 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: who recognize there's something deeper going on there. We're gonna 437 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: try to understand some of what Fred coded into his 438 00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: children's program and see if we can put it into 439 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: a language for the adults who so desperately need it. Now, 440 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: we're trying to crawl into the mind of Fred Rogers. 441 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: How did this singular dude from an Appalachian town happen 442 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: to develop some of the most spiritually sophisticated, substantial, maybe 443 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: even essential television of all time. You can call his 444 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 1: work of philosophy, but it really just comes down to this, 445 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: how can Fred Rogers help us be better neighbors next week? 446 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: When I met Fred Rogers, he was a very unusual 447 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: positive energy, so damn unusual, and by that I mean 448 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: those puppets. What on earth was a grown man doing? 449 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: Plan with The pub is Finding Fred is produced by 450 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: Transmitter Media. The team is Dan O'Donnell, Jordan Bailey, and 451 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: Mattie Foley. Our editor is Sarah Nick's editorial will help 452 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: from Michael Garofalo. The executive producer for Transmitter Media is 453 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: Credit Cone. Executive producers at Fatherly are Simon Isaacs and 454 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: Andrew Berman. Music by Blue Dot Sessions and Alison Layton 455 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: Brown And thanks to the team at My Heart. If 456 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: you like what you're hearing, rate the show, review the show, 457 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,120 Speaker 1: and tell a friend I'm Carvel Wallace. Thank you for listening.