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Speaker 1: If you're not seeking feedback about your business idea or

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Speaker 1: just in life from people that you respect and in

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Speaker 1: some cases people that you don't, you're dumb. If you're

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Speaker 1: listening to it all, you're even dumber. You must have

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Speaker 1: the confidence to sort of ignore a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that in some cases no more than you, to kind

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Speaker 1: of to take different ideas and things on board, but

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Speaker 1: to not ultimately to still to follow your instinct. That's

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Speaker 1: really really important and that takes courage at times. And

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Speaker 1: I think we sort of between Joey and I and

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Speaker 1: our partnership, we're able to kind of navigate through both

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Speaker 1: you know, and Orwards was born and started to sort

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Speaker 1: of work, and it was just a really really exciting time.

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Speaker 2: Hey Hurdlers, Emily Aboudy here bringing you Episode one four

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Speaker 2: of Hurdle, a wellness focused podcast where I sit down

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Speaker 2: with inspiring individuals to talk about everything from their big

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Speaker 2: wins to how they've gotten through some of life's toughest moments.

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Speaker 2: On the show, you can expect vulnerability, motivation, and candid

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Speaker 2: discussions with everyone from top athletes to aspiring entrepreneurs on

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Speaker 2: what it really takes to follow your passions.

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Speaker 3: My mission is.

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Speaker 2: Simple to inspire you to be your best self, move

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Speaker 2: with intention, and have some fun along the way. For

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Speaker 2: today's episode, I am chatting with Tim Brown. He is

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Speaker 2: the co founder of All Birds.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 2: You may know All Birds originally for their cozy wool

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Speaker 2: runner shoes, but more recently the company's expanded to running

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Speaker 2: seekers and underwear, and just last week they launched their

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Speaker 2: debut clothing collection, including T shirts.

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Speaker 3: And crew necks and cardigans.

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Speaker 2: In today's episode, Tim talks to me about it all,

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Speaker 2: including how we went from playing professional soccer and going

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Speaker 2: to the World Cup to focusing in on what he

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Speaker 2: refers to as a curiosity project. I'm using air quotes

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Speaker 2: here that later became All Birds. From the get go,

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Speaker 2: Brown was highly passionate about sustainability and creating a smarter

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Speaker 2: sneaker without aggressive branding, and he talks me through the

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Speaker 2: challenges that came hand in hand with that, how he

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Speaker 2: met co founder Joey Swillinger, and even shares the biggest.

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Speaker 3: Lessons he has learned along the way.

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Speaker 2: Before I get into it today, I do want to

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Speaker 2: take a moment to thank my sponsor Beam. If you

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Speaker 3: Now I know what you're wondering, why Beam. Let me

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Speaker 3: tell you.

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Speaker 2: I have been sent so many different types of CBD

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Speaker 2: over the last couple of years, but the one that

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Speaker 2: And that's because it's made with ingredients that I can trust.

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Speaker 2: that I make with warm almond milk from my brother.

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Speaker 3: And it is a total treat.

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Speaker 2: Aside from the CBD, it's got melatonin, magnesium, rishi, lfianine,

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Speaker 2: a whole lot of goodness that makes my sleep just

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Speaker 2: that much sweeter.

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Speaker 3: You have got to try it for yourself.

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Speaker 2: Head on over to Beam TLC dot com and use

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Speaker 3: Use the promo code Hurdle for fifteen percent off any

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Speaker 3: product today.

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Speaker 2: I do want to thank all of the hurdlers that

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Speaker 2: came to book club last week.

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Speaker 3: It was a blast.

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Speaker 2: I set the date for the next book Club Wednesday, December.

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Speaker 3: Ninth, at eight p m. Eastern, So save that date.

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Speaker 2: I promise I will announce the book club pick asap.

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Speaker 2: To be kept a loop on that and all other

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Speaker 2: things that are going on with the hurdle community. Make

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Speaker 2: sure you're subscribed to the Weekly Hurdle in our following

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Speaker 2: Hurdle and me over on social media it's at Hurdle

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Speaker 2: podcast and at Emily a Body.

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Speaker 3: And with that, let's get to hurdling. Today. I am

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Speaker 3: sitting down with Tim Brown. He is the co founder

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Speaker 3: of All Birds. Tim, how are you doing good?

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Speaker 1: Thank you? Yeah, good, it's great to chat with you.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for thanks for having us on.

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Speaker 3: Of course, I am amped for this. It's actually quite funny.

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Speaker 3: I was chatting with my dad last night and out

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Speaker 3: of nowhere, without knowing that you and I were going

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Speaker 3: to chat today, he says to me, you know, I've

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Speaker 3: been thinking about getting a pair of All Birds.

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Speaker 1: Well, he's you know, without knowing you're dead. He sounds

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Speaker 1: like a good man.

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Speaker 3: He is a good guy. He's it's funny now, especially

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Speaker 3: because you guys aren't just you know that that sneaker

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Speaker 3: that you started with. So before we get going, why

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Speaker 3: don't you clue me in into the offerings that Albirds

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Speaker 3: has at the moment?

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Speaker 4: Sure?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So All Birds is, you know, selling foot well,

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Speaker 1: primarily were focused on sustainable material innovation and then also

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Speaker 1: some apparel, So we've got some underwear and socks and

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Speaker 1: some more stuff coming, but it's really about the materials.

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Speaker 1: And we're about five years in and a team of

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Speaker 1: of sort of nearly five hundred people now based here

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Speaker 1: in San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: When you say a team of nearly five hundred people,

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Speaker 3: does that kind of blow your mind?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. I mean this, I'd like to sort of

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Speaker 1: say this was a bad idea for a long time

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Speaker 1: before it was a good one. And I pretty much

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Speaker 1: have to pinch myself most days in terms of sort

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Speaker 1: of how far this has come and from an idea

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Speaker 1: that I started working on back in New Zealand sort

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Speaker 1: of circuit two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine,

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Speaker 1: and to have come on this journey over the last

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Speaker 1: quart best part of a decade has been really special.

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Speaker 1: So I feel really really, really really fortunate. But this

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Speaker 1: is the this is the problem when you go and

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Speaker 1: build something and I sort of sit here today and

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Speaker 1: I know that there's so much further we can go,

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Speaker 1: and so many other things we need to do. That's

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Speaker 1: the That's the blessing and the blessing and the curse

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Speaker 1: of trying to build your own thing. It's it's never

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Speaker 1: quite where you want it to be.

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Speaker 3: I have to like say the obvious before we even

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Speaker 3: really dive into your backstory, because you mentioned New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: so you've certainly come a far away, but socks natural

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Speaker 3: progression underwear maybe not so expected.

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Speaker 4: You just sort of, I guess, just creeping up the body.

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Speaker 4: I don't know, like.

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Speaker 1: I'd like, I'd like to sort of say that there

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Speaker 1: is Yeah, there was obviously something counterintuitive about the idea

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Speaker 1: that the materials that you make your shoes on would

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Speaker 1: also be suitable for underwear. But I think it just

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Speaker 1: speaks to, you know, the importance of having natural fibers

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Speaker 1: and the potential of having natural fibers against your skin

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Speaker 1: versus synthetics, and we sort of see the opportunity all

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Speaker 1: over the place. And underwear is probably it's a particularly

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Speaker 1: important contact point and sort of one we feel like

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Speaker 1: we could do a great job. And we've just come

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Speaker 1: out with underwear not that long ago, and so you're

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Speaker 1: really really really proud of that product and also surprisingly

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Speaker 1: hard thing to make, which has taken us a long time,

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Speaker 1: but we've landed in a really.

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Speaker 4: Good place, huh.

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Speaker 3: And you also mentioned five hundred employees. I remember reading

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Speaker 3: at the end of last year you guys had some

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Speaker 3: big hopes for growing how many stores that you had.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure there has been a big amount of challenge

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Speaker 3: with that when it comes to what's going on in

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Speaker 3: the world. So how many stores does All Words have

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Speaker 3: at the moment a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Over twenty I think it might be twenty one, including

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Speaker 1: some of our stores in Europe, in Asia, Japan, China,

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Speaker 1: and in New Zealand. There's one store in Auckland. So

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Speaker 1: you know, retail has been really successful for us. It's

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Speaker 1: been something we're really excited about. But it has slowed

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Speaker 1: down over the with all the uncertainty over the last

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Speaker 1: few months. But it's something it's a channel we really

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Speaker 1: really believe and it's been such a source of fun

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Speaker 1: and you know for us, and it's a place where

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Speaker 1: we learn an enormous amount that's so great. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if I have any sort of product questions or bring

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Speaker 1: our ASSISTANTCE store manager and soho in New York, Jeff,

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Speaker 1: because he's so knowledgeable about how our customers are interacting

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Speaker 1: with the product. So there's a lot of these unintended

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Speaker 1: benefits to retail that have made it a really sort

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Speaker 1: of special part of our business, and we're certainly excited

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Speaker 1: about the potential of it moving forward.

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Speaker 3: I dig that. Well, of course you mentioned New Zealand

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Speaker 3: that you've said you've been had a store over there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, a lot has happened since you started it out.

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Speaker 3: So why don't you bring me back to growing up

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Speaker 3: in New Zealand. Talk to me about what that was

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Speaker 3: like for you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, New Zealand's a special place. That's where

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Speaker 1: I grew up. And you know, some of the people

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Speaker 1: listening might have been there. If they haven't, I you know,

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Speaker 1: when this all settles down, I encouraged them to get

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Speaker 1: down there, lived there through high school and after that

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Speaker 1: kind of came to America for the first time as

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Speaker 1: a I think a seventeen nearly eighteen year old, came

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Speaker 1: over to America on a soccer scholarship to the University

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Speaker 1: of Cincinnati when I was eighteen, so left there and

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Speaker 1: came to America, but grew up in New Zealand, and

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Speaker 1: it's a special place for me. My family's still there,

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Speaker 1: my brother, a lot of friends, so it's a special

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Speaker 1: part of the world for me.

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Speaker 3: Did you know that you wanted to come to the

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Speaker 3: States to play soccer? I?

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 1: I the soccer was starting to become an increasingly important

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Speaker 1: part of my life, and I'd made an age group

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Speaker 1: sort of New Zealand Under twenty team. But the real

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Speaker 1: big driver behind it was actually my auntie, who was

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Speaker 1: from North Carolina, had been a tar heel and was

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Speaker 1: really had opened my ideas to the potential of taking

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Speaker 1: my education through the American collegiate system and actually.

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Speaker 4: Bought me a book.

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Speaker 1: This makes me feel so old when I say this,

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Speaker 1: but like a book listing all the Division one soccer programs.

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Speaker 1: It was about three inches thick and it had the

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Speaker 1: name of each coach. It was like an almanac, the

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Speaker 1: name of each coach, the email address, website. So this

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Speaker 1: is kind of like two ninety nine two thousand. I

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Speaker 1: remember loading up my dial in modem and emailing all

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Speaker 1: sorts of universities to try and connect the dots on

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Speaker 1: getting over there, and was able to make it happen

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Speaker 1: after a fair amount of work. But it was a

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Speaker 1: really special part of my life to be able to

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Speaker 1: do that.

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Speaker 3: Did you have encouragement from your family to take that

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Speaker 3: sort of initiative or do you think that that was

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Speaker 3: just like you felt like that was your only option.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I feel as though a lot of people

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Speaker 3: might not have taken that same level of responsibility on

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Speaker 3: what their potential future could be.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think, you know, I'd had the benefit of

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Speaker 1: my father being being English and my mum being a

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Speaker 1: Kiwi and both of them having traveled, so I think,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in New Zealanders a sort of brought

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Speaker 1: up living in a corner of the world that's pretty

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Speaker 1: remote that you know that travel and seeing the world

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Speaker 1: is sort of something that a lot of people will do,

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Speaker 1: and maybe not necessarily for university.

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Speaker 4: But I got really excited about.

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Speaker 1: The idea of being able to take my sport further,

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Speaker 1: which I loved, but also continuing my education, and at

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Speaker 1: this stage I had started to sort of circle on

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Speaker 1: the idea of design and studying sort of that as

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Speaker 1: a as a as a path forward, and the idea

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Speaker 1: of bringing those two things together with a trip overseas

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Speaker 1: was sort of really exciting. And I remember my games

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Speaker 1: I've been playing in this sort of like the national

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Speaker 1: competition in New Zealand, and the games have been on TV.

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Speaker 1: So I literally like edited together this VHS tape of

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Speaker 1: like My High Life and made copies of it and

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Speaker 1: then sent these out to a range of coaches and

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Speaker 1: I ended up getting you know, a handful of a

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Speaker 1: handful of and it was, you know, it was My

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Speaker 1: parents were always like, look, if you want to do it, great,

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Speaker 1: If you don't want to do it, great, which has

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Speaker 1: always been sort of.

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Speaker 4: Their approach, and I will support you whatever you want

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Speaker 4: to do. And I and I went for it, and

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Speaker 4: it was one of the best decisions I've ever made.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember your first impressions upon arriving here in

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Speaker 3: the States?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Absolutely, well.

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Speaker 1: I mean I'll speed a bit where I stayed with

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Speaker 1: a friend in LA and literally the first place they

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Speaker 1: took me was Palm Springs, and so I remember just

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Speaker 1: watching someone eat their dinner with a clip Entrey pulling

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Speaker 1: like slot machines and feeling like I was on a

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Speaker 1: different planet. But you know, I ended up having a

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Speaker 1: different scholarship offers from a range of different sort of places,

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Speaker 1: and ended up going to the University of Cincinnati, which

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Speaker 1: had this incredible design program, which is what I was

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Speaker 1: helding on studying. And so I ended up in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the country in Cincinnati, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: kind of didn't really know where I was going or

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Speaker 1: what I was what I was doing, and you know,

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Speaker 1: ended up just in this place that I spent four

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Speaker 1: really really happy years studying this at this fantastic school,

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Speaker 1: and you know, in a part of the country that

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Speaker 1: obviously now living in San Francisco is very very different.

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Speaker 1: So but it was great and I loved it from

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Speaker 1: the very first minute. I remember just being struck by

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Speaker 1: how confident people were, Like I just I know, again

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Speaker 1: that feels like overly sort of simplistic, but I remember

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Speaker 1: coming to this football team and I really just was

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Speaker 1: not quite sure I should be there, and yet I

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Speaker 1: saw there are a lot of people kind of walking

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Speaker 1: around with like a language of confidence that was pretty

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Speaker 1: foreign to me in terms of how I'd been brought

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Speaker 1: up and and yeah, so there was there was, you know,

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Speaker 1: but overall I kind of I fit straighted and I

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Speaker 1: just I loved it from the first minute.

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Speaker 3: How did you start to embrace confidence on your own

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Speaker 3: that seeing it being something that was so prevalent around you?

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, and this has been one of

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Speaker 1: the gifts of the many gifts that America has given me,

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Speaker 1: is just you know, that courage to back yourself a

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Speaker 1: little bit and to to have the courage to kind

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Speaker 1: of go and sit in the bar and then raise

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Speaker 1: it a little bit and imagine something bigger than you

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Speaker 1: possibly could have thought possible. And I know that again

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Speaker 1: sounds a little bit funny, but you know, I think

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Speaker 1: in New Zealand that's sort.

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Speaker 4: Of not the way that you're you're brought.

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Speaker 1: Up to sort of always talk that if you have

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Speaker 1: a big idea, you kind of you come across as

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Speaker 1: arrogant or you know, And I think this pros and

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Speaker 1: constant both. And I think the answer lized Summer in

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Speaker 1: the Middle and you know, the power of humility, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think I believe in completely too so, but the

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Speaker 1: idea that you could go and have a big dream

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Speaker 1: and go after it was sort of something that that

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Speaker 1: I sort of saw clearly from the very first day.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I think.

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Speaker 1: There was a lack of sort of criticism. People just

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Speaker 1: tended to kind of be really excited about the positive

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Speaker 1: stuff and move on from the negative stuff a lot

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Speaker 1: more quickly than I was used to it. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I certainly have taken a lot of lessons from that.

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Speaker 3: I dig it. Okay, so you're there, you're studying design.

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Speaker 3: At what point do you say to yourself, well, actually,

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Speaker 3: maybe I'm going to take this sport thing a little

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Speaker 3: bit further right now.

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Speaker 1: Well, I just it was just it was the best.

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Speaker 1: I was kind of doing both of these things and

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Speaker 1: loving it. But the design stuff, really, I mean I

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Speaker 1: had a challenge when I first got there because I mean,

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Speaker 1: since that's a big, big school twenty five thirty thousand

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Speaker 1: students something like that. But the design school was not

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Speaker 1: the place where athletes went to study. And I really

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Speaker 1: had a battle to prove that I was serious about

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Speaker 1: studying there, in a fight even to kind of get in.

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Speaker 4: And so it was always full on and I remember

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Speaker 4: just they'd run.

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Speaker 1: These studios from nine to twelve and then two to

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Speaker 1: five in the afternoon and practice was always at three

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Speaker 1: and I just felt like I was always sprinting somewhere.

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Speaker 1: But it was great, and the design thing was just

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Speaker 1: an enormous unlock. And I can almost remember the week

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Speaker 1: where I just finally, this is just exact and I

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Speaker 1: don't know some people might have had that experience.

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Speaker 4: We're like, this is just what I meant to be doing.

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Speaker 4: And I loved it.

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Speaker 1: And the football thing, you know, I loved a little.

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Speaker 1: I didn't quite have the same feeling, but I loved it,

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Speaker 1: and it was a competitive thing, and I remember one

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Speaker 1: at one point the coach come up to me and

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Speaker 1: sort of asking, if you know I was interested in

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Speaker 1: taking it further, and if you know, MLS was an option,

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Speaker 1: and so you know, that opened up the idea that

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Speaker 1: I kind of take the sport further. So I went

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Speaker 1: after that as well and ended up not being drafted,

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Speaker 1: but found myself after university in the Los Angeles Galaxy

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Speaker 1: changing room trying to trying to see if I could

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Speaker 1: make it at the next level.

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Speaker 3: Just found myself in the Galaxy changing room, like just

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Speaker 3: one day, woke up and I was like, how did

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Speaker 3: this happen?

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Speaker 1: Well, it was you know, I didn't get drafted, So

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Speaker 1: that was that was sort of something that you know,

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00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 1: I hoped might happen, and then started to open up

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Speaker 1: to the world of agents and coaches and how these

349
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Speaker 1: types of things happened, and literally sort of got an

350
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Speaker 1: opportunity and just went for it and landed landed on

351
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Speaker 1: a plane in la and tried to make it work.

352
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Speaker 4: And very very quickly got that it wasn't going to.

353
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Speaker 1: So that was like the first sort of blow where

354
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Speaker 1: this thing that you were thinking about doing is very

355
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Speaker 1: and it, you know, is sort of ripped away from you.

356
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Speaker 1: And I was sent down to one of their feeder

357
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Speaker 1: teams for an opportunity, the Richmond Kickers. So I very

358
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Speaker 1: quickly found myself in Richmond, Virginia playing for the Richmond

359
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Speaker 1: Kickers in the second Division and did that for a

360
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Speaker 1: little while, unsure about how much longer I could kind

361
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Speaker 1: of really stick with this before I got on with real.

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Speaker 3: Life, you know, But you stuck with it for a

363
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Speaker 3: little bit longer, because the Kickers wasn't your last stint,

364
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Speaker 3: was it.

365
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Speaker 1: No, And I said, look, I'm going to have a

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Speaker 1: fully fridged professional contract. I'll do this. I did it

367
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Speaker 1: for a season and it was great.

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Speaker 4: Fun.

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Speaker 1: But I was like, look, I need I need a

370
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Speaker 1: proper professional contract here. I need to prove myself I

371
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Speaker 1: can do that. I think I said it, you know,

372
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Speaker 1: time frame on it. I forget it was a year.

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Speaker 1: I've got to go out and find myself playing at

374
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Speaker 1: a level that is you know. If I can do that,

375
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Speaker 1: great and I'll kick. If I can't, I'll move on

376
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Speaker 1: to something else. And I ended up going to England,

377
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Speaker 1: where my father was from. I was actually born there

378
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Speaker 1: as a little kid before we moved out to New Zealand.

379
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Speaker 1: So I had a passport and went on trial at

380
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Speaker 1: a bunch of English clubs and again faced more rejection,

381
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Speaker 1: and one in particular at Swansea, which is a club

382
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Speaker 1: in Wales that plays in the English competition. And I

383
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Speaker 1: got rejected from there on a January afternoon in the

384
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Speaker 1: UK and forever anyone who's spent time there, it gets

385
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Speaker 1: dark at like two thirty in the afternoon. It rains

386
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Speaker 1: every day, and it was miserable and I was in

387
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Speaker 1: a phone box having just been released, seemingly kind of

388
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Speaker 1: out of options, and I remember that being a low

389
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Speaker 1: point in my pursuit of a professional sporting career.

390
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Speaker 3: How did you pick yourself up after that.

391
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Speaker 1: Well, so I rang my dad and so of course

392
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Speaker 1: the hemispheres and New Zealand are flipped right, and I'm

393
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Speaker 1: literally in this like red phone books and it's raining

394
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Speaker 1: and freezing cold, and I'm staying in some I don't

395
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Speaker 1: know where, I'm staying somewhere not very nice, run out

396
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Speaker 1: of money. And I rang my dad and of course

397
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Speaker 1: it was like Christmas time in New Zealand and everyone's

398
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Speaker 1: at the beach and it's sunny and warm. And he

399
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 1: picked up and it was a family barbecue and he

400
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,199
Speaker 1: answered the phone and he said, what's going on? And

401
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 1: I said, look, this is really hard. I just don't

402
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,439
Speaker 1: think I can do this anymore. I'm really thinking about,

403
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 1: you know, packing it in. And he said, look, you know,

404
00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 1: it's beautiful warm here. We miss year. We really wish

405
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:24,719
Speaker 1: you were here. I've kind of got to get back

406
00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,760
Speaker 1: to the barbecue and the family. And if you want

407
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:29,560
Speaker 1: to quit, I'm not going to tell you you can

408
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,880
Speaker 1: do that. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that you've even gone

409
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 1: this far, and I will support you whatever way you

410
00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:36,880
Speaker 1: want to go, but don't don't call me for permission

411
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Speaker 1: to quit.

412
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Speaker 4: I'm not going to give it to you.

413
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Speaker 3: And interesting, what an interesting thing though, just like how

414
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Speaker 3: often are we kind of as humans like just looking

415
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Speaker 3: for someone else to tell us that something is okay?

416
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,639
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, And it's completely true, And I guess the lessons.

417
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,439
Speaker 1: And I'm probably given my old man a little bit

418
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,119
Speaker 1: more credit than he deserves here because maybe just literally

419
00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,040
Speaker 1: didn't want the steak to burn. But the way I

420
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,520
Speaker 1: remember it as you know, hey, you know you should

421
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 1: be doing this for yourself, and if if that's not enough,

422
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 1: then stop doing it, and whatever way you want to

423
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 1: go is cool, like, and but I'm not the one

424
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Speaker 1: that's going to tell you to keep doing it, and

425
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,040
Speaker 1: I'm not equally not going to be the one that

426
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Speaker 1: tells you to stop doing it.

427
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,160
Speaker 4: So you make the call and and equally with.

428
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Speaker 1: The sort of the warm acknowledgment that it's really hard

429
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 1: and that I'd gone further than you know I should have,

430
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Speaker 1: and that I should be proud of it, whatever whatever way,

431
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,199
Speaker 1: and then very quickly getting back to the barbecue and

432
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Speaker 1: leaving him in the in the freezing cold phone box

433
00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,399
Speaker 1: wishing over to New Zealand. But it was it was

434
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 1: a spur, and I, you know, and so I decided

435
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Speaker 1: to quit. I go, I don't want to do this

436
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 1: thing you want. It's too hard. And I got back

437
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 1: on a plane in New Zealand, and of course along

438
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 1: the way got an offer to go play in the

439
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,720
Speaker 1: Australian A League when someone got injured and a butterfly

440
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,040
Speaker 1: flipped its wings in the world turn on its axis,

441
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Speaker 1: and I got one last opportunity in Australia and ended

442
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 1: up playing in this incredible emerging league in Australia called

443
00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,679
Speaker 1: the A League for a team in Australia and then

444
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 1: for a that actually happened to be founded in my hometown,

445
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,320
Speaker 1: if you can believe that, and ended up playing sort

446
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 1: of seven or eight years. They're having this incredible experience

447
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: and being part of a New Zealand team that went

448
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 1: to the World Cup in twenty ten. But for you know,

449
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,359
Speaker 1: a few different things here or there, it wouldn't have

450
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 1: worked out. But I certainly look back on that moment

451
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 1: and it was permission to quit or permission to keep going.

452
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 1: Was actually sort of a real sort of special moment

453
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:23,159
Speaker 1: for me.

454
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 3: When you reflect on your time of playing soccer, especially

455
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:33,160
Speaker 3: toward the later parts of your career at this time

456
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 3: are you having an itch to go back to any

457
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 3: of the design work that you loved so much in college.

458
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: Oh, I never, I never let it go. I was

459
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,240
Speaker 1: I was hauling my laptop around with me, reading every

460
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,040
Speaker 1: book I could get my hands on, and just trying

461
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: to I just I was addicted to the strategy and

462
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 1: theory of design and innovation, and you know a bunch

463
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: of I've a few of them actually that I've subsequently

464
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: got to meet, like Tim Brown, ironically enough, the namesake

465
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 1: who found it IDEO. I remember reading his books and

466
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 1: starting to sort of open up to this idea that

467
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 1: design was about you know, coloring stuff and then creating things,

468
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: but it was also about strategy and started, I think

469
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,919
Speaker 1: even from that point imagining kind of going back to school.

470
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 4: And puring my creative.

471
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:30,399
Speaker 1: Education with with one in business and and so started

472
00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: to you know, I just for me, it was a

473
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: release from the sport, because if I thought too much

474
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 1: about the sport, it wasn't healthy for me. So it

475
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 1: became a kind of a hobby along the way. But

476
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,399
Speaker 1: I never let it up, not for a second.

477
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 3: Where does your burning passion to get into the sneaker game,

478
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 3: How does that all start to come to fruition.

479
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 1: Oh, I mean again, I just you know, I think

480
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: I'm so I find myself playing in the A League

481
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,959
Speaker 1: and playing now at a good level really and starting

482
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 1: to have the dream, which I think kind of came

483
00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 1: from about two thousand and six two thousand and seven,

484
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: that hate New Zealand could go to the World Cup

485
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 1: in twenty ten, and there was this big opportunity and

486
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 1: that I would you know, I'd started to play for

487
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 1: the senior team at that stage, so I was really

488
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 1: excited and completely committed to sort of trying to be

489
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:14,960
Speaker 1: a part of that. And New Zealand had been to

490
00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 1: the World Cup in nineteen eighty two but hadn't been

491
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 1: for effectively twenty eight years.

492
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 4: So there was this big opportunity and we were drawn

493
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 4: to play.

494
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: The Asian fifth place qualifier, so there was this real

495
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: opportunity and so that was sort of happening, and so

496
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,320
Speaker 1: the sport was really intense, and I was living in Wellington,

497
00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: in my hometown, playing for a club there as well,

498
00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: and again started to continue to explore my creativity and

499
00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:42,400
Speaker 1: my design and I.

500
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 4: Started to look at footwear.

501
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: I was sponsored by one of the big Sports week

502
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: companies at the time that shall not be named getting

503
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:50,719
Speaker 1: lots of free gear, which actually ended up being one

504
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,440
Speaker 1: of the cool things about playing sports professionally. Maybe you

505
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: might even say one of the best things. And I

506
00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: just get lots of free gear, and it was all synthetic.

507
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 4: The design.

508
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,439
Speaker 1: Tended to be bright, bold, always about about logos, and

509
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 1: it changed all the time, so if you even if

510
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 1: you fell in love with one of their products, and

511
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: many of them were great, you often couldn't get them again.

512
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: It was almost the sort of like intentional redundancy of

513
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: their approach. And it was very hard to find simple

514
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: as someone who you know from the earliest ages had

515
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 1: picked my logos off clothing and it really had a

516
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: kind of a minimalist design philosophy.

517
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 4: It was very very hard, at least in New Zealand

518
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 4: to find.

519
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: You know, shoes that were simple, and so it was

520
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: it was an itch really that I decided to go

521
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: scratch and I found a footwear factory online and one

522
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: of my off seasons just went to visit it and

523
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,639
Speaker 1: I again found myself in a footwath factory for the

524
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: first time, asking a lot of really simple questions.

525
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: Taking a break from today's episode to give some love

526
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527
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528
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529
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530
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531
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532
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540
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541
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543
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544
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545
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546
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547
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548
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549
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550
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551
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552
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Speaker 3: That's so interesting, though, because I think for so many

553
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 3: just the idea of trying to figure out what footwear

554
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 3: factory to visit. Nevertheless, actually getting in the car and

555
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,879
Speaker 3: going there or making contact with someone like you really

556
00:26:57,040 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: had this passion ignite within you to make this big

557
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: move and to go do it.

558
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 4: Yeah.

559
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 1: Well, and then maybe that's given me way too much

560
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: credit because just to be clear, I wanted to kind

561
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: of have a holiday as well and get away from

562
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: New Zealand at the time, and there was no great,

563
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: big plan I just I had. It was a curiosity

564
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: project where I was. I had a problem that was

565
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: my own. In hindsight, I probably should have written a

566
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: business plan and looked at a bunch of things that

567
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: I didn't. I just kind of dove into it, and

568
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: but gosh, I found myself and I was fascinated by

569
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: this world, and it was so antiquated, Like the way

570
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: that shoes were made was so manual, it was so

571
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: focused on the cheapest. Everything hadn't really changed as far

572
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 1: as I could tell, for a long, long, long, long time,

573
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 1: and was full of all these inconsistencies, and as far

574
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 1: as I could tell, I you know, I subsequently found

575
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 1: what I've I've come to understands my innovation alarm going off,

576
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: where I'd ask like really simple questions like what is

577
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: a size ten? And and why you know, why aren't well,

578
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: why do you ways just use synthetic materials? And why

579
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: is this that that way? And I could never get

580
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 1: a good answer for any of these things. So subsequently

581
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 1: realized that it was usually because there wasn't one and

582
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,920
Speaker 1: there was a whole lot of opportunities to do things differently.

583
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, ten years on from that

584
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 1: first visit, I feel that even more strongly as it

585
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: relates to making shoes, So kind of trusting your instincts

586
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: in those early stages is pretty powerful. But it ended

587
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: up being kind of a catalyst to go and make

588
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: some shoes, which I did, and sell them to my

589
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: teammates and really sort of imagine the idea of building

590
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: a brand.

591
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 4: In a business.

592
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I think that concept of asking

593
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 3: questions that are quite simple, that idea can be very

594
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 3: intimidating sometimes because it's as though you feel as though

595
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 3: you should know the answer, and because you feel as

596
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 3: though you should know the answer, a lot of the

597
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 3: times we don't like get the courage to just ask

598
00:28:58,960 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 3: the simple question.

599
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's completely right. And you know,

600
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 1: when I look back and reflect back on that, it

601
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: was the experts that often gave me the worst answers,

602
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 1: that couldn't explain the simplest terms, and we often find

603
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: we get caught behind jargon and established ways of working,

604
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: and that child like ability to just why why why

605
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: often oftentimes can unlock stuff. And you know, I sort

606
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 1: of think oftentimes too, you're looking for pushback or frustration

607
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: as well. Like I feel like that never really phased me,

608
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 1: but in hindsight, it was quite valuable. And I think

609
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 1: now you know, if ever you're having an idea that

610
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: everyone is giving you high fives on and is telling

611
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 1: you it was awesome, it's probably a good sign that

612
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 1: it's not. You actually want people to disagree with you

613
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 1: and challenge you and assume that you don't know something,

614
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: because that usually means you might be onto it, onto

615
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: something that's unique or an insight that's been overlooked. And

616
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: you know, what I imagine doing was making a shoe

617
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 1: out of wall, out of natural materials. I saw an

618
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 1: opportunity to bring this design philosophy and combine it with

619
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: the idea of materials that cost a little bit more,

620
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: that hadn't been that had been overlooked by the footwear

621
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: industry that traditionally sort of defaulted to doing everything as

622
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:13,479
Speaker 1: cheaply as possible.

623
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 4: And it kind of brought me to wall and.

624
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: Opened up this whole sort of legacy industry in New

625
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 1: Zealand that is a very very big part of our

626
00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 1: history there, but had been underutilized and not really sort

627
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: of considered in the context of footwear. So I set

628
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: out to make a wool shoe. Who would have guessed that?

629
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: And sort of spent the best part of three three

630
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: or three maybe even three years working out how to

631
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: do that.

632
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 3: What did your teammates say at first when you showed

633
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: up and said, Hey, so I've been working on this thing.

634
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 1: Oh brutal, absolutely, you know what are you doing? I mean,

635
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: you've got to realize these guys are getting free stuff

636
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: and now I'm going to charge you for this thing

637
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: that I'm creating. And so it was pretty brutal, but

638
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: they in many ways were a pretty were pretty strong

639
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: testing ground, right Like, if I could convince these guys

640
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 1: that got loads of free gear from all these sportswear

641
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: companies to shell out some money for the thing I

642
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: was creating, I was probably going to be on to

643
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 1: a winner. And so again that leaning into the criticism,

644
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: it's been a pretty consistent thing, and a whole series

645
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: of points through this, through this journey have been helpful

646
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: and and so you know, and set out to do

647
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: that and sold a few peers and but ultimately, you know,

648
00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: the creation of the wall material for the upper was

649
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: the big, the big thing. It was a real challenge

650
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: and that that involved a research grant that I had

651
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: to apply for. So it was a lot of different

652
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 1: pieces that kind of came together and you know, literally,

653
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: you know, through three years, through going to the World Cup,

654
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 1: at least you know, multiple factories at this point, hundreds

655
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: of prototypes, if not more like just went on and

656
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 1: on trying to get the single vision of the single

657
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: shoe that I'd imagine and and and we'd imagine with

658
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,080
Speaker 1: other people that were helping me. Ultimately went to the

659
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: World Cup in twenty ten with New Zealand, which was amazing,

660
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 1: and then decided to retire and go to business school

661
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: in London. And so I actually, you know, twenty twelve

662
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: now in London, showed up at business school with a

663
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: few simple shoes made from wool, an idea that maybe

664
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: this could be a business.

665
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,160
Speaker 3: Was it hard to step away from soccer as your

666
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 3: main career.

667
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:27,479
Speaker 4: No, not at all. You know.

668
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: It was like I just didn't want to be the

669
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: last guy at the party, and to be part of

670
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: that New Zealand team that had gone to the World

671
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: Cup was like beyond my wildest dreams and I was

672
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: incredibly fortunate to have that experience, and I knew that

673
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: it was it just on some level had stopped being

674
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: the most important thing to me and it was time

675
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: to move on. If I was going to be respectful

676
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 1: of the effort that had got me there, it was

677
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,959
Speaker 1: the right time to leave. And I copped a bit

678
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: of flak for it, to be fair, and a lot

679
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: of people felt like I was maybe some people were

680
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: glad to see the back of me. Other people felt

681
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: like maybe I was leaving a little bit too early,

682
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: and I left with a years I think on my

683
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 1: contract sort of tore that up and tore up the

684
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: sponsorship from the Sportsweek company and found myself in London

685
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: as a student again. But it was incredibly exciting and

686
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 1: it was just the right time. I think I was

687
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,920
Speaker 1: thirty two, just turned thirty two. It was the right

688
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: time to go and try something else. And I'm really

689
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: proud that I decided to go backwards a little bit

690
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: so I could go forwards again.

691
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 3: Negative feedback on that decision for you.

692
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, of course, But again, any good decision

693
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: probably has a little bit about it. I think if

694
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 1: you're trying to please everyone, usually that means you've gone wrong.

695
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: But I mean from the people that mattered, it was like, okay, great,

696
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: and I took some time off, I traveled, you know,

697
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,560
Speaker 1: and then showed up at the Lund School of Economics

698
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: to study all the subjects I'd.

699
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 4: Avoided through my undergraduate school.

700
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: And so they actually sent me this letter where they

701
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: said it was kind of I would love you to

702
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: come in a couple of weeks early and work with

703
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: the kind of the undergraduate students because like, you haven't

704
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 1: studied any of this stuff before, and you know, the

705
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: subtext was how have you been accepted into the school?

706
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: But I did, and it was just you know, I

707
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,279
Speaker 1: started at the back of the class and I went

708
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 1: to this university. So my father and my grandfather had

709
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: worked on Fleet Street for those people that know London

710
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: and it's and the LSE was sort of the school

711
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: for them and just down the road from where they work.

712
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: Neither of them had gone to university, so it was

713
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:27,959
Speaker 1: it was a cool thing to kind of come full

714
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: circle in terms of where my family had sort of

715
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 1: spent some time and literally living in a dorm, went

716
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: back to being a student again and and it was amazing.

717
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: And I, as part of the program, got the opportunity

718
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: to come to an entrepreneurship to a business school in America.

719
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: Came to Callogg for a quarter, which is the NBA

720
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: program at Northwestern University in Edminston and Illinois. So spent

721
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: a quarter there and took an entrepreneurship class with a

722
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: prophisical car to cast who's this amazing character used to

723
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: be the CEO of dot com, who runs this great

724
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: class on basically starting a business, and found myself in

725
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: his class with the doors locked, as he likes to do,

726
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 1: pitching an idea to a room full of fifty students

727
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: with the hope that my idea would be picked to

728
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: form a group around for this entrepreneurship class, and ended

729
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: up getting wool shoes picked. And I sometimes think like,

730
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: had that not been successful, I wouldn't be chatting with you.

731
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,479
Speaker 1: It was sort of sort of ten weeks with Carter

732
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 1: in that class were really foundational for taking this from

733
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: a product to sort of a business idea, and that's

734
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: what I said set out to do.

735
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 3: I would think that if I was one of the

736
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 3: students whose concept wasn't homed in on for that ten

737
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 3: week period, like I might be a little bit better

738
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 3: that you get all of this free support.

739
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 4: It was amazing.

740
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: I found myself with like a couple of like Baye

741
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: consultants who were so extraordinarily smart, asking all these questions

742
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: about the business and margins and supply chain that I

743
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: hadn't really given a thought about. I had a couple

744
00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: of prototypes that still admittedly looked pretty awful. They were

745
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: almost like medical shoes, like that you might weel like

746
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: if you have a problem, or like one of your

747
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: legs is longer than the other, or sort of like

748
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,719
Speaker 1: so they didn't look very good, but we stuck with

749
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 1: it and we had this incredible period and got to

750
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:14,080
Speaker 1: the end of the class and Carter, who i'd started

751
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: to sort of get to know really admire as a teacher,

752
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,959
Speaker 1: and pulled me into his office one day and he goes, term,

753
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 1: you know, if everyone in this class, you seem more

754
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: committed to the idea than most. But I just want

755
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 1: to let you know that I think this is a

756
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: horrible idea. I'm really worried that I'm really worried that,

757
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 1: you know, you won't know when to quit, and so

758
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: I think you should sort of throw it out on

759
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: Kickstarter or something so it can fail and then you

760
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: can get on with your life, because otherwise I'm worried

761
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: you won't and you'll get stuck. And so it was

762
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: like this like brutal kind of conversation and ultimately one

763
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: of those moments when you know you can interpret that

764
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:54,080
Speaker 1: two ways. This guy's basically I don't know if I'm

765
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: allowed to say this, but like this guy's a deck

766
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: or you know, or he cares and I've found almost

767
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: time and time again, people that go out of their

768
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 1: way to be that honest with you usually care and

769
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: they see something in you. And he was right, and

770
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 1: I went home for Christmas. I took him at his word.

771
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 1: I said, you know what, I'm going to give this

772
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: a go, went home for Christmas in New Zealand, spent

773
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: seven hundred dollars on a cameraman with the help of

774
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: my brother and on a family friend's farm in Partanui,

775
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,280
Speaker 1: which is just north of Wellington, shot a Kickstarter video

776
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: for a wool shoe called the wool Runner that ended

777
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: up sort of taking this whole thing out to the

778
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: world and it was a pretty cool moment that couldn't

779
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: have happened without my brother's prodding and support.

780
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, but when you start a Kickstarter you have to

781
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 3: have like a physical product that you're promising people who

782
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 3: are willing to contribute money to you. So at the time,

783
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,319
Speaker 3: did you even have any physical samples or shoes that

784
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 3: you knew like, Okay, we can mass produce this in

785
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:55,399
Speaker 3: some way.

786
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: I think we had six pairs or something, maybe eight,

787
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,479
Speaker 1: and they were in different colors made of the wall,

788
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:03,240
Speaker 1: and I think I had enough wall for a thousand

789
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,200
Speaker 1: peers from this research grant and another factory that I'd

790
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: found in Portugal, and so I threw this thing up

791
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: in March of twenty fourteen on Kickstarter and not expecting

792
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: kind of anyone but my mum to buy a peer,

793
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: quite honestly, and it took and it.

794
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 4: Took it.

795
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: It sort of took off, and we saw after four

796
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: days had to shut it down, sold one thousand peers

797
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: did I think one hundred and twenty thousand dollars.

798
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 4: You can still watch the video.

799
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's still up there some embarrassing corner of

800
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: the Internet of me sort of chasing cheap around on

801
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: this farm. And it was the beginning of kind of

802
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: the next chapter. And I think it's sort of Carter

803
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 1: was exactly right. It was the moment where you, you know,

804
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: you forced this thing to be something real, forced, you know,

805
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: get your idea to a place where you'll see if

806
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 1: people will actually take their wallet out and buy it.

807
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 1: And so that's what happened, and you ended up having

808
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: a waitlist of multiple thousands of people, and it was

809
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 1: the beginning of the worst year ever trying to deliver

810
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 1: on this, but it was it was really the start

811
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: of this thing becoming, you know, bigger than just a

812
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: curiosity project.

813
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 3: So where does your co founder, Joey come into the max.

814
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,919
Speaker 1: So I'm a year into this, I got a little

815
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: bit of a I was working in a kind of

816
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: a business incubator with a little government grant, another another

817
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 1: one in the UK, with a couple of young guys

818
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: that were helping me, who were worked really really hard

819
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: to sort of just deliver on this Kickstarter campaign. I

820
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: got to the end of that year and it was

821
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 1: it was I was pretty miserable, to be honest with you.

822
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,600
Speaker 1: It was it was making anything as hard. Making shoes

823
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: is particularly difficult, making shoes with materials that have ever

824
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: really been used in football when you don't know how

825
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: to do any of that is sort of extraordinarily complicated.

826
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: And I was using some of the Kickstarter funding in

827
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:52,879
Speaker 1: my own savings to kind of like make it work,

828
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: and so no investment at that point, and it was

829
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: just it was kind of feeling like it was impossible.

830
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,239
Speaker 1: And I got to the end of that year and

831
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: actually got an investment offer, randomly enough from a US

832
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 1: based investor, and Joey and I had been friends before

833
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: that he'd actually been an early supporter of the Kickstarter campaign.

834
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: His wife and my wife had been roommates at college,

835
00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: and he was based in San Francisco, and I would

836
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: say I knew him well, but we knew each other.

837
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: And I ended up getting this investment offer, and I

838
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: kind of knew it wasn't very good, and so I

839
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: was ringing around trying to find some people to give

840
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: me some perspective and guidance and advice on how I

841
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: should approach this, and knowing Joey like I know him now,

842
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: you know, I asked for the He could have blown

843
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: me off. He could have given me the perfunctory five

844
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:42,919
Speaker 1: or ten minutes, and he jumped on the phone straight

845
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,960
Speaker 1: away for an hour and given me a full analysis

846
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: of all the papers and documents.

847
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 4: And a perspective on what I should do, which was

848
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:50,919
Speaker 4: walk away from this deal.

849
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 1: And then I just thought I was very grateful for that,

850
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 1: and so that's what I did. I kind of, you know,

851
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: I decided that was sort of the end of the

852
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: road for the idea. It was maybe time to quit.

853
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 1: It was another sort of Swansea phone box moment.

854
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 3: A Swansea phone box moment. But I mean, he gives

855
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 3: you this advice and then are you like, Okay, well,

856
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 3: now you're going to come in and do this thing with me.

857
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 4: Well there wasn't even that.

858
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 1: I ended up taking my first job, my first ever job,

859
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: and I literally walked away from it, and I had

860
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,759
Speaker 1: shoes boxes like overflowing in our tiny apartment, and I

861
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 1: just had lost my confidence with it, quite honestly, And

862
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: I still distinctly remember this one memory of like or

863
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: a couple of memories of again being in London, you know,

864
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 1: in my early thirties, where everyone else, my wife's friends

865
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: and all our friends felt like they were in this

866
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,880
Speaker 1: like pinnacle moment of their career where they were starting

867
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,800
Speaker 1: to earn money and just flying and work out what

868
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: they were going to be, and I was going the

869
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,840
Speaker 1: opposite direction, sinking like a stone. And I remember like

870
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: going out for dinner and I would just dread the

871
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 1: moment when people would ask me what I was doing,

872
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 1: and I would what.

873
00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:58,800
Speaker 4: Are you up to?

874
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: And I'd just squeak out like bullshoes, And then when

875
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 1: we'd leave the dinner, they'd sort of pat me on

876
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:05,279
Speaker 1: the head and I could feel like my confidence was

877
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,319
Speaker 1: just eroded by this idea and I couldn't work out

878
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: how to do it, and I felt like I sort

879
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 1: of made a mess of this thing, and I ended

880
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,239
Speaker 1: up graduating from LC and then I just decided, look,

881
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:14,640
Speaker 1: I'm going to go get another job. And I went

882
00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: and worked for like an innovation agency, and literally the

883
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 1: day I started that, Joey rang me back and said, hey,

884
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,839
Speaker 1: we should we should totally do this. And I've been

885
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: thinking about it this, you know, there's a big opportunity

886
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: here and what do you think? And so I literally

887
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 1: flew on a plane to San Francisco for a couple

888
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: of days to spend the weekend with joe to imagine

889
00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: if we should work together to take this idea to

890
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 1: the next level.

891
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 3: Wow, talk to me about where your head was at

892
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 3: on that plane ride.

893
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 1: Free, you know. And again I just think it's like

894
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,239
Speaker 1: I hadn't given up on this idea, but I'd taken

895
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 1: another job, and so I just the idea that all

896
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I was just stepped away from this

897
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 1: thing that you get so close to and so intensely

898
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: associated with to understand that no one really cares and

899
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: any sort of pain that you might feel as in

900
00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: your own head, and if it works great, and people will,

901
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,080
Speaker 1: you know, support you, and if it doesn't, that's great too,

902
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 1: And so it gives you a little bit of perspective

903
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: and and and so I felt I felt really sort

904
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: of free, and I and I and and clear that

905
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 1: I really always believe that there was something in the idea,

906
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 1: but but not too you know, in that sort of

907
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: nice state of mind where you you really committed to

908
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:37,879
Speaker 1: make something work, but you realize if it doesn't, it's

909
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: not the end of the world, which is like a

910
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: good a good place to be for sort of performing,

911
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 1: whether that be in sport or sort of life in

912
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: a word sort of way. So that was the mindset,

913
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: and I found in Joey the partner that you know,

914
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: this project had been missing.

915
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 3: I think also like in terms of the mindset thing

916
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 3: it's too old. It's like one you're concerned about others,

917
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 3: impression of whatever your path may be or whoever it

918
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 3: is that you are. And then also whether it's in

919
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 3: sport or just in our profession, I mean, like we

920
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 3: identify with these terms or these things that we're doing.

921
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 3: Like I enjoy running, I identify as a runner, I identify

922
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,400
Speaker 3: as a journalist, I identify as a daughter and so

923
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,840
Speaker 3: if something were to happen that would take one of

924
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 3: these roles away, whether that's an injury or a necessary,

925
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 3: unexpected like job change. It's like when you have to

926
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 3: like make a pivot and you lose a part of

927
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 3: your identity. That can be really confusing and hard and

928
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:33,320
Speaker 3: very uncertain.

929
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've had really good training. I think

930
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,400
Speaker 1: a little bit in terms of my sport, I just

931
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,720
Speaker 1: eventually get to the point where it's like Tim the

932
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 1: soccer player didn't play well in that game, or Tim

933
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: the soccer player lost that game, but Tim the person

934
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: is still great, and.

935
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:51,720
Speaker 4: Those two things are different.

936
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: And so it was really helpful I think for sort

937
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: of some of the preshes of entrepreneurship and sort of

938
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: having a bit of perspective on, you know, what's really important.

939
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: And I would say that, you know, I had that

940
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: perfectly right, but I certainly sort of had some tools

941
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: to sort of deal with some of that stuff. And

942
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 1: I think it can become all consuming when you're trying

943
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: to build something or when you're pushing yourself to kind

944
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,360
Speaker 1: of the limits to try and get something really difficult

945
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: across the line. So i'd sort of i'd sort of

946
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: was a little bit more comfortable than maybe most with

947
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 1: sort of how difficult that might be. And and so,

948
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: you know, with Joe was off an opportunity to go

949
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: do it with, you know, with someone new, and really

950
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 1: importantly found the purpose and all of this too, because

951
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: I think some of the other questions I was starting

952
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: to ask myself were, you know, why am I making

953
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: what am I putting myself through this.

954
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 4: Like a shoes.

955
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, like I liked shoes, but I

956
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 1: wouldn't say that like I dreamed of making shoes one day,

957
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: or you know, as much as it would be great

958
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 1: for the story, I didn't grow up on a sheep

959
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 1: farm as much as I was passionate about wool and

960
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:53,320
Speaker 1: the properties of the material. So I was kind of

961
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,280
Speaker 1: asking what is this all about? And I think in Joey,

962
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: I found not only a business partner, but also the

963
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: source of the purpose, which you know, for me at least,

964
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: really really important part of taking on really important challenges

965
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: sort of understanding the larger why around what you're doing.

966
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 3: So it wasn't just about making a sneaker that utilized

967
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 3: wool as a material. It was bigger than that. It

968
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 3: was about making a sneaker that really was better for

969
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,279
Speaker 3: the environment than the other options out there. I think

970
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,719
Speaker 3: I read a statistic ones it's like there are like

971
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 3: twenty billion pairs of shoes made every year.

972
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 1: This means exactly right, Like I was making a shir

973
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 1: at of wool, solving a kind of this curiosity problem.

974
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: But it wasn't enough in all the ways that like

975
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: playing sport professionally, as much of that had been a

976
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: dream for me growing up, it wasn't enough for me.

977
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 1: It had to be about playing for my country as well,

978
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: and doing this thing that was sort of larger than

979
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: just the idea of winning or losing, you know, a

980
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: couple of games. And similarly with the business, it was like,

981
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: you know, unlocking the idea through Joe's experience that the

982
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 1: world was at this tipping point in terms of needing

983
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:11,880
Speaker 1: to find more thoughtful ways to make products that had

984
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: you know, net zero impact on the environment and needed

985
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: to do so quickly. It was an enormous opportunity. And

986
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: that the fashion industry was ten percent of global emissions

987
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,760
Speaker 1: and footwear industry made, to your point, lots of shoes

988
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,920
Speaker 1: that they didn't really consider the impact of the environment

989
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 1: and the process of doing so was it just an

990
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,480
Speaker 1: enormous opportunity and we sort of we spent this weekend together.

991
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 1: His family were away at the time, so it was

992
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,440
Speaker 1: this weird, sort of like opportunity. I just went for it,

993
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: and we sat down and kind of imagined the business

994
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 1: that that we'd tell our grandkids about.

995
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 4: If we could pull it off.

996
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: And I came back from San Francisco and said to

997
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: my girlfriend now wife, who was just in love with London,

998
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: who's actually from New York or ugly enough, and hey,

999
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: what do you think about San Francisco? I really think

1000
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,959
Speaker 1: that we should go do this, And to her normal

1001
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: us credit, she said yes. And we found ourselves very

1002
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:07,680
Speaker 1: very quickly making plans to sort of shift around the

1003
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: world to take a crack.

1004
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 3: At this first question, where does the name Alberts come from?

1005
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: So when people first came to New Zealand, there was

1006
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 1: nothing but birds, So it was a nod to the

1007
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: provenance of the idea. And also this you know, this

1008
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: concept when the birds are okay, their environment is okay,

1009
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 1: they're like a bell with it for the health and

1010
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,080
Speaker 1: wellbeing of the world, really, and so it was a

1011
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: it was this cool thing and Joe and I largely

1012
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: worked where Joey's expertise went out and raised the seed

1013
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 1: round of a couple million dollars and came to San Francisco,

1014
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,040
Speaker 1: started working out of his mother in law's house, and

1015
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 1: came up with the name All Birds and prepared to

1016
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: launch the business I think with four four other employees

1017
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 1: on the first of March twenty sixteen, I think, so,

1018
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,760
Speaker 1: I think we raised the money. In August, we moved.

1019
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 1: I actually got married around the same time as well

1020
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 1: as like all these things going on, and found ourselves

1021
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 1: literally just north of San Francisco, working in his mother

1022
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: in law's house. But just a quick one on the name.

1023
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: So we fell in love with this name and it

1024
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,560
Speaker 1: was like, great, this is the name All Birds really encapsulates.

1025
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: And we sort of had this idea we weren't really

1026
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: going to use birds in the name. It was not

1027
00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: about literally birds. It was a concept and we loved

1028
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 1: it and then sort of signed off on the name.

1029
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,040
Speaker 1: And I remember finding out joe rang me someone had

1030
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: found out that all birds meet kilos of cocaine in

1031
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,360
Speaker 1: street parlance, and like it was like, oh, this is

1032
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: this big disaster. We've named this thing after like drug terminology,

1033
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,520
Speaker 1: and so we did go. We decided, you know, it

1034
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: didn't matter, and no one knew that. And if we

1035
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,040
Speaker 1: didn't know that, who cares. And so we went for it,

1036
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 1: and All Birds became the name, and we didn't look back.

1037
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:52,040
Speaker 4: And it was a really exciting time.

1038
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,319
Speaker 3: Thank god you didn't look back. I realized as I'm

1039
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 3: listening to you talk to me about this. Funny little

1040
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 3: side note is that I didn't ask you when that

1041
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 3: year that was the worst year of your life, Like

1042
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 3: what happened with all of those orders when you had

1043
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 3: some of the materials but you weren't necessarily in the

1044
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,360
Speaker 3: position to fill these orders.

1045
00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 1: Oh, it was just it was just it was just brutal,

1046
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: and it was the product was kind of made a

1047
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 1: little bit wrong, and we got some of the sizing off,

1048
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: and then you know, we were shipping shipping these shoes.

1049
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: There's about a thousand them to all these different countries

1050
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 1: with you know, and I'd get an email from some

1051
00:50:27,680 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: guy and like, losing money on this, by the way,

1052
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 1: And get an email from a guy in Toronto who said,

1053
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: love the shoes. But you know, I would have read

1054
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 1: and you've sent me blue and and like and I

1055
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: was just like, I really don't know what to do.

1056
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: I can't really sort of change that, and and so

1057
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 1: just realized, you know, I was doing customer service by myself.

1058
00:50:45,880 --> 00:50:48,240
Speaker 1: So I'd wake up each morning just knowing what walking

1059
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:49,880
Speaker 1: down the stairs and knowing I was walking into an

1060
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:54,560
Speaker 1: inbox full of like people that you know, for whatever reason,

1061
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:57,239
Speaker 1: had had some sort of issue with what was going on,

1062
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,360
Speaker 1: and it was just it was just it was just

1063
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: brutal and hard. And I think, you know, it's always

1064
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 1: the case. Given give me a lot of empathy for

1065
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: some of the harder parts of operating in business, particularly

1066
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 1: in shoes, but I just it was just very difficult.

1067
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,240
Speaker 3: When would you say that post launch, you really felt

1068
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 3: like you guys were onto something truly successful, and Albert's

1069
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 3: was gaining some momentum.

1070
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: Well the first week, Time magazine called the shoes the

1071
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: most comfortable in the world.

1072
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 4: So that was a good one. That was a good

1073
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 4: that was a good moment, you know.

1074
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:36,279
Speaker 1: But the truth we went on to I think we

1075
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 1: wrote a business plan, and I think we did in

1076
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: the first month or two what we said we do

1077
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: in the first year, and this thing just kind of

1078
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: took off and exploded in ways that we could never

1079
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 1: have imagined. But you know, I really don't think it

1080
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: was ever a sense in you know, of of too

1081
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: many high fives. I think it's always been a little

1082
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 1: bit of a sporting mentality. Okay, on to the next one,

1083
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: almost maybe to the to our detriment at times where

1084
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,600
Speaker 1: we just both Joe and I have been so focused

1085
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 1: on the importance of this purpose and the opportunity that

1086
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 1: we had that there hasn't been too much of that.

1087
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,360
Speaker 1: And you know, I think this constant sort of reflection

1088
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,799
Speaker 1: on where we could get better, it has been pretty

1089
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: foundational for us, you know, from the beginning.

1090
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 4: But I do remember a.

1091
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 1: Moment where my mum called me and I don't know

1092
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 1: if you're familiar, but New Zealand's got this really lovely,

1093
00:52:24,440 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: pretty impressive leader at the moment called just Cinder Adn

1094
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:31,239
Speaker 1: who was thirty seven, even younger than me, elected as

1095
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 1: Prime minister, and she visited and met with an Australian

1096
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,439
Speaker 1: Prime minister for the first time, which is a big deal,

1097
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: kind of trans tasma meeting, and her gift to him

1098
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:41,880
Speaker 1: had been a pair of all birds.

1099
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:43,640
Speaker 4: And Mum rang up and she goes, oh, you've made it.

1100
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:48,200
Speaker 1: And the joke was that the Australian Prime Minister already

1101
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: had a pear, and I was like, wow, this thing

1102
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 1: is so it just kind of a bunch of a

1103
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: bunch of little cool things like that that are data

1104
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: points that you're on the on the right track, and

1105
00:52:58,120 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: then you start to see them on the street and.

1106
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 4: We were away.

1107
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 3: Do you have a point in growing this business where

1108
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 3: you finally start to realize that maybe you're getting to

1109
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 3: breathe a little bit easier. I mean, you went through

1110
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 3: such a really stressful few years that from you know,

1111
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: the kickstarter to the launch, I can't imagine I would

1112
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 3: imagine now, even though the business is obviously still growing

1113
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 3: and you're still iterating and still making new things, that

1114
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 3: you got to a point where you were able to

1115
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 3: finally prioritize a little bit more balanced and overall wellness

1116
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 3: for yourself.

1117
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's really interesting you say that, like i'd maybe,

1118
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: ironically enough, when I was playing sport running around probably

1119
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:50,560
Speaker 1: pushed myself to such a degree and were so focused

1120
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: on what I wanted to achieve that I sort of

1121
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,959
Speaker 1: stopped enjoying it a little bit. And my mom said

1122
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 1: something to me when I retired and just before I

1123
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: left to London, it like me, like I still remember,

1124
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: she goes, look, turn, we're so proud of like what

1125
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 1: happened with your sports, so so proud, couldn't be more proud,

1126
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 1: but we're looking forward to having you back a little bit.

1127
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 4: And that one hit me like a brick.

1128
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 1: And I made this sort of promise to myself that

1129
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: whatever i'd i'd kind of go on to do that.

1130
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:19,480
Speaker 1: I was never I was never even get that close

1131
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: to something. I was going to find a way to

1132
00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 1: just sort of enjoy it a little bit more and

1133
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 1: and take some of the some of the pressure off myself.

1134
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 1: And I think, so I've just I've never I don't

1135
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 1: want to say it's been easy, but I've never I've

1136
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: never let myself get to that degree. It just it's

1137
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: never It's been important, but never that important.

1138
00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 4: And you know, Dad now family.

1139
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,799
Speaker 1: It was always anything that kind of was going to

1140
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 1: impact my relationships or my friendships or my family, you know,

1141
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: then that was a line I just would not cross.

1142
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,800
Speaker 1: And we were fortunate Joe and I's partnership we shared

1143
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,240
Speaker 1: that like he had twins at the time, and ibviously

1144
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:03,200
Speaker 1: we'd met through our wives, so we've made this promise

1145
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 1: to each other that whatever happened and our partnership was

1146
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 1: never going to impact their relationship, and so some of

1147
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 1: that stuff was really foundational and pretty important to the

1148
00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 1: sort of the way that we approached it. So I

1149
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,919
Speaker 1: guess one of the things the great things about being

1150
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 1: an entrepreneurs that you get to one of the hard

1151
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 1: things is you get to you have to do everything yourself.

1152
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: One of the good things is you get to kind

1153
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,319
Speaker 1: of write the rules, and very very early on, we

1154
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: imagine the sort of a culture and values and a

1155
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 1: way of working that was going to hopefully sort of

1156
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 1: make this a place where your health and well being

1157
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: was not compromised.

1158
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 3: What would you say is some of the best advice

1159
00:55:43,320 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 3: that you have received in building this brand since twenty sixteen.

1160
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: People often focus a lot on what they're going to be,

1161
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 1: and oftentimes it's a lot easy to find out what

1162
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: you're not going to be. And I think to build

1163
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 1: a business, it's so much about focus, and there's so

1164
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: many shiny objects and imptations and grass is always greener

1165
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,480
Speaker 1: that you have to get extraordinarily disciplined about saying no

1166
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: to a lot of stuff so you can focus on

1167
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 1: the one or two things that are going to.

1168
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 4: Help you win.

1169
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: And in our case, we launched with one shoe and

1170
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: we were going to We're going to live or die

1171
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: by the quality of that product that we made. We

1172
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 1: ended up selling a million pairs of that one shoe

1173
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 1: and in the first sort of you know, a couple

1174
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: of years, a year or so, eighteen months and so.

1175
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,280
Speaker 1: But with the number of footwear experts and I remember

1176
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: one in particular who came in just before launched and

1177
00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 1: so of said, hey, this is you can't I know

1178
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: a lot about shoes, and you can't sell shoes this

1179
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,759
Speaker 1: way online with one style. It's not going to work.

1180
00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: And we stuck with our guns and we decided to

1181
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:41,719
Speaker 1: focus and say no to a lot of things. And

1182
00:56:41,760 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: I think that focus was really foundational for us. And

1183
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:46,080
Speaker 1: which is the second point with feedback, and.

1184
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:47,000
Speaker 4: I've touched on it, but.

1185
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 1: You know, if you're not seeking feedback about your business

1186
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 1: idea or just in life from people that you respect

1187
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,280
Speaker 1: and in some cases people that you don't, you're dumb.

1188
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:01,440
Speaker 1: If you're listening to to it all, you're even dumber.

1189
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 1: You must have the confidence to sort of ignore a

1190
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:06,200
Speaker 1: lot of people that in some cases, no more than

1191
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:09,479
Speaker 1: you to kind of to take different ideas and things

1192
00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 1: on board, but to not ultimately to still to follow

1193
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 1: your instinct. That's really really important and that takes courage

1194
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: at times. And I think we sort of between Joey

1195
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 1: and I and our partnership, we were able to kind

1196
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: of navigate through both and you know, and Orbards was

1197
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: born and started to sort of work, and it was

1198
00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 1: just a really really exciting.

1199
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 3: Time, completely different making an athletics sneaker versus making your

1200
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 3: classics sneaker.

1201
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: Well, I always wanted it was called the will Runner

1202
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: because I always imagined it would be a running shoe,

1203
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 1: and we couldn't quite get there.

1204
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 4: It was just too difficult.

1205
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 1: But this idea that wall was the you know, the

1206
00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: world's sort of best performance fiber, was how I'd kind

1207
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: of grown up in New Zealand. And so this year,

1208
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 1: four years in a little bit over four years in,

1209
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: we actually launched that running shoe called the Dasher that's

1210
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,919
Speaker 1: been really successful for us in April of this year.

1211
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 4: So we managed to get there. It just took a

1212
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 4: little bit of time.

1213
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,000
Speaker 1: So we now sell the running show and I wear

1214
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: it all the time, and I'm really.

1215
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 4: Proud of that product.

1216
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 3: What excites you right now?

1217
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:14,320
Speaker 1: I have to say these are challenging times on just

1218
00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 1: about every front. I mean I sit here today and

1219
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: like a few few not that many miles away sort

1220
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: of the fires are raging in California, and it just

1221
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: feels like a dangerous, scary time for the world. I

1222
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,240
Speaker 1: think there's lots to sort of to worry about. I mean,

1223
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,120
Speaker 1: I think maybe it's partly because as an entrepreneur you

1224
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: need to be you know, I sort of think in

1225
00:58:41,080 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: times of difficulty, you find out a lot about people,

1226
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: yourself even and I think in terms of all birds,

1227
00:58:48,040 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: I think we've seen enormous resilience from our team and

1228
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 1: our business through this difficult period. And then more broadly,

1229
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, without being too funny, as it relates to

1230
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: sort of our purpose around climate change in the environment,

1231
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: you could be forgiven a year or so ago for

1232
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:06,000
Speaker 1: being pretty cynical about how people were thinking about it.

1233
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,280
Speaker 1: Even when we started the business in twenty sixteen, the

1234
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: idea that we were going to use sustainable materials that

1235
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,800
Speaker 1: we oftentimes had to pay up for. Our factory often

1236
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: look at us like we had six heads, like what

1237
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 1: are you doing? No one's going to know no one cares.

1238
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: And I think we've really seen that change. I mean,

1239
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:25,680
Speaker 1: I think it's a couple of years ago that you

1240
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 1: know that there was these youth marches started. Greta Tumberg

1241
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,120
Speaker 1: started sort of taking fridays off school, the young Swedish

1242
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: activists literally fridays off school and protesting by itself on

1243
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:37,760
Speaker 1: the steps of the Swedish Parliament. It's not that long

1244
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 1: ago that happened, and it's ignited this whole kind of

1245
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: youth movement around the environment.

1246
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 4: And you know, I.

1247
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 1: Think even with COVID, I think there's some positives to

1248
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,880
Speaker 1: take out of a horrible situation for so many because

1249
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:52,000
Speaker 1: I think we've seen a problem in the pandemic that

1250
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: hasn't respected traditional borders or industries or ways of working.

1251
00:59:56,840 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: And we've seen a kind of a global community, albeit imperfectly,

1252
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,720
Speaker 1: rise up to tackle this challenge. So you know this,

1253
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: So there's like anything else, there's a difficult period. But

1254
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 1: there's some stuff that I think is really promising for me.

1255
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: Where I said at the moment.

1256
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 3: Right now, you have an opportunity to offer yourself back

1257
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 3: in that right phone booth a piece of advice looking

1258
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 3: back on that hurdle moment right now, what do you

1259
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 3: tell yourself.

1260
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:28,640
Speaker 4: You know that it's going to be okay?

1261
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: And I think I mean Steve Jobs, He's got this

1262
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:34,080
Speaker 1: wonderful quote from a Stanford commencement where it's sort of

1263
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: an old paraphrase sort of you just got to trust

1264
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:41,000
Speaker 1: that the stars of the dots will connect moving forward,

1265
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: that the stars will align moving forward. You obviously know

1266
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 1: in retrospect they do, but to imagine the path forward,

1267
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: I think you have to trust in your instincts, with

1268
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:50,360
Speaker 1: some sort of calm or higher power, that all these

1269
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 1: things are going to work out.

1270
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 4: And they do.

1271
01:00:52,880 --> 01:00:54,960
Speaker 1: And I think if you trust in that, then I

1272
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: think it allows you to make counterintuitive decisions and to

1273
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,120
Speaker 1: follow your instincts a little bit more freely knowing that

1274
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: it's going to work out. And I think I just

1275
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: would have been a little kinder on myself. I would

1276
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:07,920
Speaker 1: have continue to put pressure on myself. I'm going to

1277
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:10,720
Speaker 1: do that for as much as I'm around, but I

1278
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 1: just would have been a little a little kinder and

1279
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 1: a little bit more patient, and I would have enjoyed.

1280
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,280
Speaker 4: Some of the downtime that I had been that is

1281
01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:19,000
Speaker 4: probably not.

1282
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 1: Around me at the moment as a parent running a

1283
01:01:23,120 --> 01:01:25,080
Speaker 1: bigger business, but you know it's all going to work out.

1284
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: But I would cavey that and say, I just I

1285
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: was really fortunate. I had a couple of loving parents

1286
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 1: that were there and a bunch of support that not

1287
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 1: everyone gets. So I realized that I'm saying this from

1288
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: a position of privilege and you know, so that not

1289
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: everyone has, but certainly for me, I just would say, hey,

1290
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 1: be a little bit.

1291
01:01:44,240 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 4: Kinder on yourself.

1292
01:01:45,960 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 3: Thanks so much for your time today, Tim, I really

1293
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 3: really appreciate it.

1294
01:01:50,120 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 1: Great to chat. Yeah, it's been it's been good. Thank

1295
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 1: you very much for that. Thank you very much for

1296
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:54,600
Speaker 1: having me.

1297
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 3: I really enjoyed it, of course. And how do the

1298
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,880
Speaker 3: hurdlers keep up with you and all? And give me

1299
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 3: all the details on where they can find you online.

1300
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:05,000
Speaker 1: All Birds I mean you should be able to find

1301
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 1: it All birds dot com. We've got retail stores and

1302
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 1: a bunch of places, hopefully a few more in good time.

1303
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,880
Speaker 1: And big shout out to our team and everyone who's

1304
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 1: working at all Birds for all the hard work they've

1305
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:17,520
Speaker 1: done for a pretty difficult period. At the moment, which

1306
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: was not really a question, but I'll take the opportunity.

1307
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 3: Anyway, perfect. I am at emily A Badi at Hurdle Podcast,

1308
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,080
Speaker 3: Another hurdle conquered. Catch you guys next time.