1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: And today we have for you an interview episode, an 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: episode where we sat down and talked to an expert 6 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: on paleolithic technology. And I'm really excited for you all 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: to hear this one because this conversation was a lot 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:33,279 Speaker 1: of fun. A stone age technology is so much more 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: fascinating than you would think, Yeah, because in looking at it, 10 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: we're looking really at the roots of a human invention 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: and innovation, Like where does the entire tree of human 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: technology spring from? Yeah, and how did ancient technology shape us? 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: So this is going to be a conversation with Dr 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 1: Dietrich Stout. Dietrich Stout is an Associate Professor of anthropology 15 00:00:55,920 --> 00:01:01,080 Speaker 1: at Emory University, where his Paleolithic Technology labor tory investigates 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: the role of technology and human evolution. Dr Stout is 17 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 1: also Associate director of Emory's Cross Disciplinary Center for Mind, 18 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: Brain and Culture, which promotes diverse and integrative research into 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:16,919 Speaker 1: human nature and experience. His research focus on Paleolithic stone 20 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,880 Speaker 1: toolmaking and brain evolution integrates field research at Early Stone 21 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: Age archaeological sites in Ethiopia with laboratory and museum research 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: including artifact analysis and experimental replication, functional and structural neuroimaging, 23 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: behavioral analysis, and psychometric testing. Now, if you want to 24 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: check out those centers I mentioned the Paleolithic Technology Laboratory, 25 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,479 Speaker 1: you can find that at Scholar Blogs dot Emery dot 26 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: e d u, slash Stout Lab, and then the Center 27 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: for Mind, Brain and Culture. You can just go to 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: c MBC dot Emery dot e d U. Yeah, this 29 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: is a super fun interview. I should stress this was 30 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: an in studio interview. Yeah, one of a couple of 31 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: interviews we recorded about a month ago where we said, hey, 32 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: let's let's reach out to some local experts on some 33 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: various topics. We don't necessarily we enjoyed jumping on the 34 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: phone with with folks, but why not have some some 35 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: local talent coming to the studio. And that's what we 36 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: did here. It was a lot of fun, uh, and 37 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:17,399 Speaker 1: I think you will really enjoy it. So I'd say, 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: without any further ado, let's go straight to our conversation 39 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: with Dietrich Stout. Hey, Dietrich, thank you so much for 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: joining us on the podcast today. Can you start by 41 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: telling our listeners a little bit about who you are 42 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: and what you do. Yeah. Well, I'm an associate professor 43 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: of anthropology at Emory University. I'm also the associate director 44 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: of the Center for Mind, Brain and Culture at Emory 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 1: as well, which is a center that promotes interdisciplinary research 46 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: on mind, brain, and culture. And those are basically my 47 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: interests come at it from the direction of archaeology and 48 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 1: the hope that we can learn something from the past 49 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 1: about made us the way we are today. So how 50 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: did you first get interested in Stone Age technology? Well, um, 51 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 1: it's not something that you typically encounter in most high 52 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: schools around the country. Uh. So, you know, when I 53 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: went to uh to college, I really had no idea 54 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: of the possibilities that where they are for anthropology, for 55 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: the archaeology of human origins. I did know that I 56 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: was interested in the way the human mind works, in 57 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: the nature of human experience. Uh And at the time, 58 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: I thought that meant that I wanted to be a philosopher. 59 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: When I got to school, I realized what I said before, 60 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: that a lot of the way we can understand how 61 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: we are today and the nature of human experiences to 62 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: understand the evolutionary processes that brought us to where we are. UH. 63 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: And I had a really great UH professor as a 64 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,240 Speaker 1: freshman and a freshman seminar. He told me to take 65 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: some archaeology classes. I did, and I still I just 66 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: remember one lecture that my professor gave. I know, she 67 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: was talking about these ancient stone tools in a particular 68 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: kind called a little vow wa technique UM, and he 69 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: was pointing out that you could see every individual action 70 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,600 Speaker 1: and and blow against the core that this person had 71 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: done something like fifty or a hundred thousand years ago, 72 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: and you could reconstruct what they were thinking, the plans 73 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: that they made. And that just struck me as as 74 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: an incredible window on the past and how our minds 75 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: became the way that they are today. And that's what 76 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: got me started on it. Like seeing into a dead 77 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: person's imagination. Yeah, to be able to recapture that, I mean. 78 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: And now I've worked at sites that are half a 79 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: million years old where you can literally trace individual decision 80 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: making processes. It's it's it's pretty incredible. Actually held a 81 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: core at one of these sites. I was looking at 82 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 1: it and I was wondering why they didn't do something 83 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,039 Speaker 1: that that I would have done with that core, that 84 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 1: piece of rock, and I twisted it around to look 85 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 1: at where I was thinking about, and so that they 86 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: actually had tried well I was thinking, but it didn't work. 87 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: So both of us made the same mistake, separated by 88 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: half a million years. That's almost a little spooky. Um. So, 89 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,600 Speaker 1: obviously we know that the Stone Age means stone tools. 90 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: But what as an expert in the area, what does 91 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: the Stone Age mean to you? What do you think 92 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 1: about when when this age is conjured? Uh? Yeah, Well, 93 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: I think really of the time period uh, for which 94 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: we have evidence of human behavior in the forms of archaeology, 95 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: but extending way back into the past so that we 96 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:29,039 Speaker 1: have information, but it's also an evolutionary time depth. You know, 97 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: we're talking millions of years, more than three million years 98 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: at this point of time. Uh. So that's what gets 99 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: me excited about the Stone Age. Uh. And of course 100 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,080 Speaker 1: you know it's called the Stone Age for a reason. 101 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: Most of what we have are the best evidences of 102 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: stone tools for behavior. Um. So that's what I've focused on. 103 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: And when you think about the very beginning of the 104 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: Paleolithic obviously we're talking about hominid ancestors then, but not 105 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: not Homo sapiens, right, And so when these organisms were alive, 106 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 1: when when they were trying to survive and and stone 107 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: tools began to play a role in their lives? What 108 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 1: was that role? What was the earliest role you think 109 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 1: stone tools played in in these organisms survival? Yeah, well, 110 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: I should say at the outset, there's a lot of 111 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,119 Speaker 1: things we don't really know with any great certainty about 112 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: the earliest Paleolithic. Uh. I think that there is strong 113 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: evidence that some of the earlier tools were used for 114 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,679 Speaker 1: for butchery of animals, because you can recover actual cut 115 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: marks on bones when somebody accidentally nicked a bone as 116 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: they were butchering an animal, and so that's a direct evidence. 117 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,159 Speaker 1: Now what else they were used for is much harder 118 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,239 Speaker 1: to say because the plant materials, all those things are gone. 119 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: So there's very limited evidence of that. And it's only 120 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: in the past couple of years that that it's been 121 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: reported a much earlier site. We used to think the 122 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: earliest stone tools were two and a half million years old. 123 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: I've worked at some of those sites, but now they 124 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: go back to three point three million years and we 125 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: as yet have very little evidence of what they might 126 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: have done with those tools. Hopefully in the next few 127 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: years there'll be the kinds of evidence that I was 128 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: talking about, but it's just not there yet, so a 129 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: lot of unknowns. If I had to say, these things 130 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: are cutting tools, and the most important thing probably for 131 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: early humans to be able to cut was animal flesh 132 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: to access that, but they could have used them for 133 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: a lot of other things, including making other tools. Uh. 134 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: One of the great things about having a cutting edge 135 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: is your ability to shape other tools. For instance, in 136 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: would if you have a knife in the form of 137 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: a stone flake, you can make a spear. You can 138 00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: make a digging stick. Again, though the wood's not there anymore. 139 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: So if they did that, we have a hard time 140 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: knowing for sure. And when you mentioned those dates a 141 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: minute ago that's referring to, Uh, is that that modified 142 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 1: stone tools we're not talking about like found stone tools. No, 143 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: And in fact, it would be nearly impossible to identify 144 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: and differentiate a found stone tool from a rock at 145 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: this point. Um, So that's all right. We know chimpanzees 146 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: use rocks as tools, and so it's you know, likely 147 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: that are very early ancestors did. Um. But yeah, by 148 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: by three point three we have evidence of them actually 149 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 1: fracturing rock on purpose in a controlled way to produce 150 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: cutting edges. And that's something that we can definitively separate 151 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: from a natural process, so we know it it occurred 152 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: at that point, Um, correctly if I'm wrong. But are 153 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,199 Speaker 1: there are there broad stroke um classifications for the different 154 00:08:36,840 --> 00:08:39,439 Speaker 1: levels of tool creation, Like I want to say, it's 155 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: something like nature, fact, artifact, etcetera. Uh, could you walk 156 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: our listeners through that? Yeah? Well, um, you know, of 157 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 1: course you could have on modified rocks used as tools, 158 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: for instance, to crack open and nut as uh as 159 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: chimpanzees and some monkeys maccaque monkeys do that as well. Um, 160 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: that's a tool, you know, it's a stone tool. Um. 161 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: But what we see by three point three million years 162 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: is the actual modification of the rock on purpose in 163 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: order to make a different kind of tool. Uh. And 164 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: that's generally a process simply of fracturing the rock to 165 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: produce sharp shards or flakes of stone that then become knives. Um. 166 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: And so that's loosely called like mode one. Uh. The 167 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 1: most well known industry that does that is the Old 168 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: One named after Old of I Gorge where Mary and 169 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: Louis Leaky worked. Uh. And that's a very simple form 170 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: of stone toolmaking. Uh. It does require quite a bit 171 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: of coordination. It's not easy to break rocks. Um. They're hard. 172 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: You have to hit them just right and with a 173 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: lot of force. UM. But it's pretty conceptually simple. You're 174 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: not gonna make flakes. Um. And then after that you've 175 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: got what variously is called like mode to or loosely 176 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: called Julian after a site where it was first described 177 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: in Europe, is the manufacture of these things that archaeologists 178 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: call hand axes. And that's where you're not just shattering 179 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: the rock into flakes, but you're actually shaping the rock 180 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: to make a tool. UM. The classic tool from this 181 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: sort of stage or time period is uh the hand axe, 182 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: which would be a flat rock UM with cutting edge 183 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: most of the way around the perimeter and a tip 184 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: at one end can be good again we think for 185 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: a large animal butchery. Uh. And so that's where you've 186 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: moved then to actually having the intention, having a goal 187 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: in mind, and the techniques that you have. The control 188 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: over the stone that's required is more um Uh. Following 189 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 1: that you have what we call prepared core technologies, in 190 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: which you shape the rock in a careful way so 191 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: that you can remove one final piece that's already pre 192 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: shaped the way you want it to be, and then 193 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: you can do that over and over again, so it 194 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: becomes a very efficient way of making tools. And then 195 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 1: there's all sorts of variations on that um and that's 196 00:10:58,040 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: the point in which we think there's a big change 197 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: that they start actually putting these things on sticks, for 198 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: instance hafting. Right, So you have composite tools, and you 199 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,839 Speaker 1: have all sorts of other techniques and materials that then 200 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: enter the process and things become much more complex. So 201 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: you mentioned the hand as, I'm interested to know a 202 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: little bit more about that. I may be mistaken, but 203 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: there there have been identified, I think, different schools of 204 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: hand as construction. Is that right? Well, yeah, I mean 205 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: there are different ways of making something that we call 206 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 1: a hand ax. Um. Now we also, I would be 207 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: very careful about that. We should always remember that when 208 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: we call slaying a hand act, that's a name that 209 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: we came up with to describe a bunch of things 210 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: that we think are all similar to each other. That 211 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily map onto what anybody was thinking in the past, 212 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: or whether they knew each other or or whatever. So 213 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: it's a tool, but we have to be careful about it. 214 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: And you put a name on something, you think you 215 00:11:52,920 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: understand it. Uh. But yeah, So, as I mentioned, the 216 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: hand acts has a particular form. There's a lot of 217 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: different ways you could achieve that, and a lot of 218 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: different starting points. For instance, I might start with just 219 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: a big rock and then shape that rock into appointed 220 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: in hand ax, uh you know. Or I could start 221 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 1: with an even larger rock and then I knock off 222 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: a giant flake, you know, more than more than ten 223 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 1: centimeters long is generally they cut off, and that's almost 224 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: already what I need. You know, it's got a big 225 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: cutting edge all the way around the edge. And then 226 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: I shape that flight just a little bit right. And 227 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 1: that's a very different way of making a tool that 228 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: in the end probably as a similar function and looks 229 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: quite similar. And then there's all sorts of different sub 230 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,680 Speaker 1: variants of ways of doing that. Uh. So that's what 231 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:41,959 Speaker 1: I think when you're talking about different schools, is these 232 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: different methods of making the hand access. Now there's as 233 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: a raging debate over what the variation actually means, you know, 234 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: the sort of naive ascension early on was every time 235 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: you find a different way of doing something, that's a 236 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,440 Speaker 1: different quote culture, even though we don't really know what 237 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,840 Speaker 1: we mean by that term at that point. Now now 238 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: there's you know, people saying that these are just recurring 239 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: rediscoveries of simple solutions to the same kind of problems. 240 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: They don't necessarily imply any sort of cultural continuity or 241 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: contact between people. There's even been suggestions that there was 242 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: some kind of large genetic component to the way that 243 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: people made these these hand axes. So now it's up 244 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: for debate. But the variation is what we we study 245 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: to try to understand what was going on in the past. 246 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: That's where we have a sort of an insight into 247 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: what was what was happening. Well, I was definitely going 248 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: to ask you the naive question about whether that's a 249 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,560 Speaker 1: result of culture, But is there so if we don't 250 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 1: make that assumption that the different forms or shapes or 251 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: approaches to hand axes are necessarily the result of cultural 252 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: traditions or cultural contact, is there anything that you think 253 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: looking at tools like this Stone age tools could possibly 254 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: tell us about the culture of the creatures that made them. Yeah, well, 255 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: and so this is where we have to get into 256 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: the sort of stuff that you can learn through experimental archaeology. UM. 257 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: For instance, how difficult is it to discover and use 258 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: particular techniques, you know, so you know, if they're if 259 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: there's two people that do something the same way, if 260 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: it's an obvious answer, then there's no reason to think 261 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: they learned it from each other. But if it's this 262 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: really sort of obscure and and and hard to learn 263 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: technique that they share, and then it's much more likely 264 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: that they learned it from each other. So I mean, 265 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: so there's this thing in in the issue in a 266 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: uh sort of a geographic patterning um to where you 267 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: have far fewer hand axes in East Asia than you 268 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: do in Africa and Western Asia and Europe. And also 269 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: none of them really to appear to be as refined 270 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: as some of the nicest examples from from further west UM. 271 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: And so people have debaded for a long time with 272 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: this geographical patterning means, and I tend to interpret it, 273 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 1: you know, in terms of there are some techniques that 274 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: are pretty hard to discover on your own and some 275 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,000 Speaker 1: that are easy, you know, and so you have a 276 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: lot of reinvention of sort of easy hand acts making 277 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: here there in the other place. You know, but these 278 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: particular advanced techniques may only have been invited it once 279 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: or twice or a couple of times, and so their 280 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: geographic spread is more restricted. So that's sort of the 281 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,840 Speaker 1: way that you make a relationship between understanding the way 282 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: that you actually make the tools and then how they 283 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: might spread through ancient populations. So you mentioned experimental archaeology. Um. 284 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people probably when they think 285 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: about the data collection part of archaeology, they probably think 286 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: primarily about digging. Um. But but tell us a little 287 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: bit about what experimental archaeology means and what what what 288 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: kind of things that has helped us understand that we 289 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: couldn't understand just from looking at actual artifacts. Yeah. Well, 290 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, what you can understand from just looking at 291 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: the artifact is actually a bit limited. You know, these 292 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: things they don't they don't come out of the ground 293 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: with with labels on them. Uh uh. You know. I 294 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: like to do this when I give a presentation that 295 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: you show a picture full of a table full of 296 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: a bunch of old one stone tools and say like Okay, 297 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: now what does this tell us? And in most people, 298 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: you know, you can't even tell that there are anything 299 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 1: other than just rocks if you're not used to looking 300 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: at them. So what you have to do to understand 301 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: what these tools that we dig up can actually tell 302 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: us is, uh, basically experimental archaeology. We use analogies, We 303 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: try to learn how to make them ourselves, and then 304 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: you can manipulate. Well, if I make it this way, 305 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: then it looks like that. If I make it this way, 306 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: it looks like that. If I use it this way, 307 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: this happens to it. Um. So then we make these analogies, 308 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: these sort of inferential arguments that processes we can observe 309 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: and manipulate experimentally now are the same ones that produce 310 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: the same effects in the past. Uh. I mean, if 311 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 1: you think about it, we do this you know any time, 312 00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: even in more recent time periods, when you look at 313 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: an artifact, I mean, you're making an analogy with something 314 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 1: you're familiar with. Usually even it's just implicit. You know, obviously, um, 315 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 1: this is a sword. You know, I've seen things like 316 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: that before, and now you don't really know that you're right, 317 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: but it's similar enough to things with which you're familiar. 318 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: That that that's you know, that's reasonable. When you dig 319 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 1: off something from two and a half million years ago, 320 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 1: you've got nothing to go on, right, So we have 321 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: to actually do some of this work to establish robust 322 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: or strong analogies that we can use. Now you've mentioned 323 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: your own experiences creating stone tools. How long does it 324 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,320 Speaker 1: take you to create a hand axe? Oh? Yeah, I 325 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: mean it takes me maybe half an hour. I'm a 326 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 1: little bit slow with that. Uh, and uh, you know, 327 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: it depending on how nice you want to make it. 328 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: And that's already assuming that I'm I'm sitting in my 329 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: outdoor lab with a pile of rocks right next to me, 330 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: and I just start making the thing. You know, if, 331 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: of course, in prehistory you would have had to go 332 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: get the rocks and all these other things to take 333 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 1: a lot more time. But yeah, uh something that's that's 334 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: quite good. It at it nine twelve to fifteen minutes, 335 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: you can yeah. Yeah, So you mentioned that we think 336 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 1: a lot of these early stone tools were used in 337 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: butchering meat. Have you ever had food prepared with stone 338 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 1: tools you've made? Uh, well, let's see myself. Uh yeah, 339 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: only actually recently, one of my colleagues had a pig 340 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: roast where we used some of the stuff that I 341 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 1: had made. Yeah, but back in uh in in graduate school, 342 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:28,400 Speaker 1: and it's quite common in these labs and places where 343 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: people do this sort of work to have the occasional 344 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 1: animal roast where you uh and you you learn things 345 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: like you know that obsidian um is really sharp and great, 346 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: but it also crumbles and leaves little bits of like 347 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: glassy kind of gridgy stuff. Yeah, not so great. I 348 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: like flint, right, So do we find uh, do we 349 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: find little grains of obsidian and ancient teeth? I'm not aware. Um, 350 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: you know, there's always I'm not well versed in later 351 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 1: prehistory and so as possibly there's something out about that 352 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,719 Speaker 1: I'm not aware of them actually getting any dental wear 353 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: from the stone tools. Of course, you get very similar 354 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: looking dental where when you you eat like a TUBERSI 355 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 1: dug out of sandy ground, so you do get cut 356 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: marks on teeth, which is very interesting because uh way 357 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 1: commonly to eat things if you don't use silverware or 358 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: chop sticks or anything like that, is you hold it 359 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 1: up to your mouth, you clench it in your teeth, 360 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: and you cut away from from there, so you're cutting 361 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: right next to your mouth, and occasionally they did hit 362 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: their teeth um, and so you get these little little 363 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: cut marks on the front teeth and fascinatingly sorry, yeah, 364 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: a lot of things can take the gross but one 365 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: of the one of the cool things you can actually 366 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: infer which hand was used, because there's a you know, 367 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 1: a sort of an ergonomics. You're slicing down and in 368 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,560 Speaker 1: one direction, so you can tell. And so people have 369 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: used that to identify really examples of predominantly right handed populations. 370 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: Even the gross stuff, there's always something you can you 371 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: can get out of it. You know, we encourage you 372 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: to mention all the gross stuff. We're not we shy 373 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: away from that here. So how is the study of 374 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 1: modern stone tool users such a such as a stone 375 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: tool users in New Guinea? How has this informed our 376 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 1: understanding of ancient stone tool use. Basically, the whole goal 377 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: of experimental archaeology is to generate analogies that we can 378 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: observe in the modern day, uh to understand the past. Um. 379 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: One of the things we have to be careful about, though, 380 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: is that when you design experiments and you control things, 381 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: you build in a lot of your own assumptions, even 382 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,119 Speaker 1: if you're not aware of them, about how things are 383 00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,360 Speaker 1: done or why things are done and so forth. You're 384 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 1: also dealing with a very artificial environment in the lab 385 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,480 Speaker 1: and without any social context or anything like that. UM. 386 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: So another source of analogy UM that you can use 387 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: to understand the past is UH ethnographic observation UM. And 388 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: by that, I would stress it you you can include 389 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: also people, for instance, in the United States that do 390 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: this as a hobby. There's a community, there's things we 391 00:20:55,240 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: can learn from them. I was lucky enough to UH 392 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: to visit some modern tool acres in New Guinea that 393 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: are part of a different tradition UH back in I 394 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: was there UM. And one of the things that that 395 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: that just broadens the number of different examples of ways 396 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 1: to do things UM that we can use to understand 397 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: the past UM. And one of the one of the 398 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: really cool things about it was I was expecting this 399 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: to be a very uh you know, very foreign experience, 400 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,399 Speaker 1: experience to be in the highlands of New Guinea, and 401 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: but once we got to the stone tools, they talked 402 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: about a lot of the same things that I, as 403 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:30,679 Speaker 1: an archaeologist, was already used where they had names for 404 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: the for the same kinds of features of the stone 405 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 1: tools and they Uh so there's a real common ground 406 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: there because we were all based on things that happened 407 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: when you try to break stone in a controlled way. 408 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 1: And then that's very validating for an archaeologist because it 409 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 1: means we can expect that, even moving them to the 410 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: total unknown of the past, there's gonna be these constants 411 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: that shaped human behavior, and if we can understand them today, 412 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: it looks like they affect different people from very different 413 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 1: cultural backgrounds in similar ways, and so so that's very validating. Um. 414 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: The other thing that was really exciting there is is 415 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: just how they incorporated stone toolmaking into their own particular 416 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: cultural and social context um, which obviously, if you study 417 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: hobbyists in the industrialized West is one context, but this 418 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: was horticultural context. And the way they had a sort 419 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: of a system of apprenticeship for learning this, and the 420 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: just the amount of time that it takes to become 421 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: an expert in the they had a particularly you know, 422 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: advanced kind of toolmaking, um. But the the the sheer 423 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: effort and the social values they attached to sticking with 424 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: it and practicing the support they provided for learning that way, 425 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: I thought. I found that to be all very inspirational 426 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 1: UM for my own research. So in in in dealing 427 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: with the stone toolmakers in New Guinea, UM, I'm assuming 428 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: there was a there was a language barrier, there is 429 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: a translator. What was How did did that reveal anything 430 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: or back up anything that you any pre existing thoughts 431 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 1: about the effects of tool use and toolmaking on language 432 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: and uh and then the origins of language. Yeah, well 433 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: I think it was there's there's been an idea for 434 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: for some time, UM, which were increasingly are articulating that. Uh. 435 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: One of the things that may have led to the 436 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: evolution of language in terms of UH an evolutionary pressure 437 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 1: or favoring language evolution is is they need to be 438 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: able to teach each other. UH, and particularly the ability 439 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 1: to teach people that you're related to, because then you 440 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: get sort of the genetic benefit and all that kind 441 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: of thing. UH. And in in New Guinea, it was 442 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: really uh striking the amount of social support UM in 443 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 1: various ways that was provided for people learning. UM. I 444 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: found that very informative. So of course language, you know, talking, 445 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: I have to do this, don't do that, or we 446 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: call this this, you know. And and um also use 447 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: of language to tell stories, um, which establishes you know, 448 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: sort of these cultural norms. They tell a story about 449 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: someone who is a great toolmaker because he spent all 450 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: of his time practicing and he neglected his yields and 451 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,159 Speaker 1: didn't talk to his wife, you know, and all that 452 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. UM. And that the socializing that they do. 453 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: They sit together and it makes it fun. Um. All 454 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: of these things are really important to learning something that's 455 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: very frustrating and difficult. Um. You know, maybe you can 456 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: think of analogies see in your own experience. Uh. And 457 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: so that that was really really cool. And then just 458 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 1: the uh also all of the gesturing of the pointing, 459 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: and just the context of having particular places where you 460 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: do things. You know, this is where we go to 461 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: get the rocks, this is where we all sit down 462 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: and make tools together. There was a structure, so there 463 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: was so much about what they were doing socially that 464 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: resulted in the the sustaining of this technology. And I thought, 465 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: you know, obviously you can't just project that into a 466 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: particular past context, but we need to expand our thinking 467 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: broadly to think about these other dimensions that may be 468 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: implied by some of the ancient stone tools that we find. Okay, 469 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:53,520 Speaker 1: time to take a quick break, but we will be 470 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: right back with more of our conversation. Thank thank Alright, 471 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: we're back. Let's jump back in now. Obviously this is 472 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: a different question from how the crafting of stone tools 473 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: might have changed our neuro anatomy over time. But I 474 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: wonder does making stone tools just change the way you 475 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 1: in your life think about your relationship with the earth, 476 00:25:15,760 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: Like do you do you find yourself out walking and 477 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: looking down and saying, oh, there's a good one. No, 478 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 1: that's not a good one. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I 479 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: mean now, I mean, particularly if you've been doing a 480 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 1: lot recently, you can't see a rock without picturing breaking, 481 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: you know. It's a uh And of course just doing 482 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: being an archaeologist does that too. Um. You know, I'm 483 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: always looking at little pebbles and my wife will catch 484 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: me looking at the landscaping, you know, and like that 485 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: would be a good hammerstone or something like that, you know. 486 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: Uh So so yeah, it does influence uh some of 487 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 1: the resources that you're aware of that are really not 488 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: particularly relevant for most people in their daily lives. But 489 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: we're once incredibly central. Well, I think about ways that 490 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 1: that that type of thinking um can take on more 491 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:03,439 Speaker 1: complex kind of mental dimensions. Like I think about the 492 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: way when I go shopping, Uh, if I'm like picking 493 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: out produced to cook with, I could see like a good, 494 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 1: fresh piece of produce and I attribute moral goodness to that, 495 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: and I see like a bad, rotten piece of produce 496 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: and I attribute moral badness to it. Do do you 497 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: do you ever feel inklings of that kind of thing 498 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: with rocks? Oh? Well, there's a certainly I don't know 499 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: about the moral dimensions, and certainly a real aesthetic to it. 500 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I don't know if you're familiar 501 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:35,640 Speaker 1: with with Flint, but it's a beautiful rock and the 502 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: the sound that it makes and the way that it 503 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: breaks when it when it does what you wanted to uh, 504 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: is just infinitely pleasing, you know. And Uh, I just 505 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 1: got some some really nice bassualt as well, which is 506 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: a very different kind of of rock and has different 507 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: but also really just aesthetically pleasing And you get a 508 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: real pleasure out of out of working in. Yeah, so 509 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: you said you can you can hear the difference between 510 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: a good break and a bad break. Yeah, yeah, this 511 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: is a question. I mean, I think it's important, and 512 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: I've talked to people who are much more experienced stone 513 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: toolmakers than I am that that really emphasized that, you know, 514 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: the sound is important. And in fact, we're just in 515 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,960 Speaker 1: the process of developing an online tests that people can 516 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: take where we play the sounds of a stone flake 517 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 1: coming off and you use a little slider to say 518 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: how big you think it was. Uh So we're trying 519 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: to see how much information is actually present in those sounds. Uh, 520 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: I know, I know that when we're sitting around napping, 521 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 1: everybody's looking napping being a term we used to talk 522 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:39,119 Speaker 1: about stone toolmaking, not to be confused with falling asleep, 523 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 1: but it's knocking, yeah, and napping. I don't know if 524 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,119 Speaker 1: it's German or something. They don't even know where it 525 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 1: comes from, but yeah, knocking the flakes off. Anyway, we're 526 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: sitting around knocking the flakes off, and uh, you know, 527 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 1: all staring down at what we're doing, and then somebody 528 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: will strike off a really nice large flake and it 529 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: makes this flat, popping sound and everybody just looks up 530 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: over it. Then so all right, you know, uh so anyway, long, Sorry, 531 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: the the we think the sound is is probably really important, 532 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,160 Speaker 1: and we're trying to probe that it. It keeps coming 533 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: up also in uh some of the neuroimaging research that 534 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: we do, or we look at uh stone toolmaking, and 535 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: we get these activity in areas that are more classically auditory. 536 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: And initially wasn't expecting that, but of course it makes sense. 537 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: That is interesting. And the stuff about the toolmaking process 538 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 1: giving you all these sort of aesthetic values when you 539 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: look at rocks or when you hear the sounds rocks make. 540 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: Does that, um lead you to draw any connections between 541 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: the origins of tool crafting in the origins of art um? Yeah, sure, 542 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 1: you know, in a informal sort of way. Um. And 543 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: and and you know people have have written about these ideas. 544 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: And this is another area sort of of contention, particularly 545 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,880 Speaker 1: with the hand axes. Uh. They're beautiful, right, they did. 546 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,960 Speaker 1: They're very appealing. Um. And there's some argument that in fact, 547 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: there are much too beautiful and appealing from no apparent 548 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: functional benefit, that this must be one of our earliest 549 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: examples of you know, aesthetic sense. UM. But as I 550 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: mentioned that, it's awfully hard to demonstrate that in a 551 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: really compelling way to skeptics. Uh. Um, it's it's it 552 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: is hard to say. You do get these glimmerings of 553 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: interesting things like, uh, you know, to make a hand 554 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: act and will be a fossil impression of a shell 555 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: that they leave right in the middle of the center 556 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 1: of one of the sides. You know, it's sort of 557 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: like they showed it off or was that an accident? 558 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: Yuh Um, it is hard to say. Um, but certainly 559 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 1: from our perspective, the symmetry and many of the aspects 560 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: of these tools are very aesthetically pleasing, so we'd like 561 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: to speculate that there's some relationship. There is there any 562 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: indication with any of the any particular hand axes that 563 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: are particularly beautiful to modern eye that they were in 564 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,960 Speaker 1: any way merely ritualistic, that they I mean, they were 565 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: not used. Yeah, So it's a it's a bit hard 566 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: because it's actually not always possible to show that that 567 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: many of the hand axes were used. You need particular 568 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: preservation conditions and evidence to actually demonstrate that something was used, 569 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: so we rarely get that. On the other hand, um, 570 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: there are examples of things that look like they couldn't 571 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 1: have been used. Um. These are very rare where there 572 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 1: would be like this really giant hand acts like the 573 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: length of my forearm, you know, that somebody made, and 574 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: in our imagination, it's pretty hard to come up with 575 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: a functional reason to do that. So it seems to 576 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: have been somebody showing off or just trying to produce 577 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,120 Speaker 1: a piece that is somehow appealing to them or something 578 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, it's it's it's elusive. Um, they're these 579 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: these glimmerings of it. So we've already mentioned a little 580 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:56,160 Speaker 1: bit the possible relationships between tool use and UM and 581 00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: the development of human neuro anatomy. Uh, do you talk 582 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: a little bit more about that, like what some of 583 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: the leads are and what is the evidence directly for 584 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: those connections. I know some of it has to do 585 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: with just like correlation of timelines, right right, Well, I mean, 586 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: so there's a basic awareness so we've had for for 587 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: a long time that you know, there's a broad general 588 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: trend towards brain size increase over human evolution, with many 589 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: exceptions and side branches and so forth that we're discovering now. Um, 590 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: but yeah, I mean, our brains are bigger than any 591 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 1: of the brains were two millioneers, and there is a 592 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,959 Speaker 1: trend there also, you know, the tools over time with 593 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: many exceptions and places where it didn't happen and so forth. 594 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: But the most elaborate sophisticated tools around a hundred thousand 595 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: years ago, we're much more complex than the most elaborate 596 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: sophisticated tools that were around two million years ago. So 597 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: there's a trend there, and there there's two trends side 598 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: by side, and you know, like think maybe they're related 599 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: to each other. Um. Now exactly how they're related to 600 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: each other is a more difficult question. You know, did 601 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,960 Speaker 1: the brain get bigger and for other reasons that then 602 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,960 Speaker 1: spill over into being able to make tools or where 603 00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: the tools really important? So that like if you could 604 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: make a if you're a little bit faster at making 605 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: a tool, more reliable at making a tool, you had 606 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: a little bit of a reproductive advantage, then you know, 607 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: than than then maybe the tools drove it um And 608 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: those are hard to uh discern exactly. So that's why 609 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: we we try to do some of these experiments where 610 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: we relate the actual process of making tools. We try 611 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: to figure out, well, what does it demand cognitively neurally? 612 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,719 Speaker 1: If there were pressure on being able to make these tools. 613 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: These are the things then that would respond to it. 614 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: So that's we're just trying to sketch out some of 615 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:45,200 Speaker 1: the basics still at this point, I think to make 616 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 1: that link and to do that, You've done some research 617 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: with the neuroimaging and and how that relates to thinking 618 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 1: about tools to making tools. Could you tell us some 619 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: more about that. Yeah, So, Uh, We've done a couple 620 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,719 Speaker 1: of different things. UM. One is what most people are 621 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: probably more familiar with, which is a functional neuroimaging, which 622 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,840 Speaker 1: typically works somehow related to to blood flow in the 623 00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: brain responsive neurons, so when they're active UM, and so 624 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: we can isolate those areas of the brain UM that 625 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:19,320 Speaker 1: are more active when you make a particular kind of tool, 626 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: you know, for instance, the hand actions that I was 627 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: talking about versus the earlier, simpler, older one style tools, 628 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: and we can say, oh, well, this is the neural 629 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:30,920 Speaker 1: system related to these forms of cognition UM that is 630 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: required to do that. So if there was something that 631 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: changed in the past associated with this technology, is most 632 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: likely to be those systems. Uh. Then the other thing 633 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: that we do is actually structural stuff UM. And that 634 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,840 Speaker 1: comes in two flavors. Also, you can, uh, you can 635 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: look at plastic changes in the brain that are caused 636 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: by a behavior. And this is something that in the past, 637 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: I guess about twenty years or so, people really become 638 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: aware that, even over short periods, doing things learning to juggle, 639 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: actually changes the physical structure of your brain, especially things 640 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: like white matter uh that sort of the cables that 641 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,800 Speaker 1: connect things in your brain. UM. And so we've applied 642 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 1: that also to stone toolmaking uh and seeing that training 643 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,879 Speaker 1: to make hand access, for instance, will increase certain white 644 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:22,719 Speaker 1: matter pathways in the brain. UH. Interestingly enough, these are 645 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,760 Speaker 1: also white matter pathways that are larger and modern humans 646 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: versus chimpanzee. So we know that it's something that has 647 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,279 Speaker 1: evolved in our history and we can relate it to 648 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: a behavior that also is observable to have come along 649 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: at a certain time in our history. So we started 650 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: to strengthen this sort of infrenial Well, maybe these things 651 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: are related to the evolution of that pathway. UM. The 652 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: other thing that we can do that we're really just 653 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: starting to look at is uh individual differences in structure 654 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: and function of people. So if you get a large 655 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: enough sample, there are small differences for instance, in the 656 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: rapidity with which people learn uh different kinds of stone toolmaking, 657 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: you know, and you can then correlate with starting differences 658 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: in their brain structure or the way that their brain 659 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: changes over time. And I think that's really exciting because 660 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: we can then also relate that to uh cognitive tests. 661 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: So you know, some of the initial stuff that we're 662 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: getting is you know, so if you're particularly good at 663 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: uh planning. For instance, there's a task called the Tower 664 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: of London, which you move sort of rings around on 665 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,360 Speaker 1: three pegs and you have to do it in a 666 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: particular order. Uh. If you're good at that, you learn 667 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: stone tool making faster slightly. Uh yeah. I think that's 668 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: really really fast because we're actually making these links between 669 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: particular cognitive operations and kind of types of stone toolmaking 670 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: that we can see in the archaeological record. Now, now 671 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,000 Speaker 1: that the test subjects who learned how to make stone 672 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 1: tools and then you saw the changes in the brain, Um, 673 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,880 Speaker 1: were any of them engaged in any activity that was 674 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 1: comparable to stone tool use or construction, like carp injury 675 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: or anything prior? Uh yeah, Um, so we actually have 676 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: uh data on that that we haven't analyzed yet. We 677 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: have people right about their other hobbies and activities. And 678 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,399 Speaker 1: actually we've got a big pile of stuff we've still 679 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: got to go through in that study. Um but you know, uh, 680 00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: sort of anecdotally, I do know that there were people 681 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: from a bunch of different kinds of professions, like we 682 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: had teachers, we did have one sculptor in the project, 683 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: and so there we don't yet, um have any hard 684 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: conclusions about that, because we need to work with the data. 685 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 1: But one general impression I got there was a little 686 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: bit counterintuitive, is that if you have more experience with 687 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,719 Speaker 1: some of these things that you might think of as 688 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: being you know, conducive to knowing how to make stone tools, 689 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: you can actually interfere if you're sort of setting your ways. Um. 690 00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: Um So, but there's a lot more to be done 691 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 1: with that. And one of one of the things that 692 00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: it bothers me is we always do these studies, you know, 693 00:36:53,840 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: with the the typical college undergraduates, and they're not really 694 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: known for being particularly good with their hands. So, um, 695 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: I would really like to expand into different populations in 696 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 1: different ages. And but you know, we're just getting started, 697 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,439 Speaker 1: because that's where you would find individuals who were, say, 698 00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:20,919 Speaker 1: skilled craftsman craft people in other in other areas, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, 699 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 1: and just just people that are more commonly doing work 700 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: with their hands, you know. Um. Now, I work with 701 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: people out when we go do excavations in Ethiopia and 702 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,879 Speaker 1: the aar Um you know is there's their pastoralists. They 703 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: have herds of animals and they you know, they make 704 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,279 Speaker 1: little walls out of stone all the time, and I 705 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,840 Speaker 1: mean they're a lot more handy. They might pick it 706 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,400 Speaker 1: up a lot faster. So obviously getting the population you 707 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,399 Speaker 1: want is one experimental challenge. I would imagine another one 708 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,760 Speaker 1: if you're if you're trying to do neuroimaging while people 709 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,399 Speaker 1: are engaging in tool tool making. The I mean, don't 710 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: you have to hold still say for from R I, Yes, 711 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 1: for fm R I you do. Um. So there is 712 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, a couple kinds of workarounds. One of them 713 00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: is the the the the the earliest studies that we did, 714 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,279 Speaker 1: you know, about eighteen years ago or more. Now, we 715 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,719 Speaker 1: used a technique called f DG pet UM and positron 716 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 1: emission tomography UM is something they don't use a lot 717 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 1: for research anymore, and brain activation. But one of the 718 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 1: things that lets you do is we injected a radiological 719 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: tracer UH into their bloodstream and this is a glucose 720 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,320 Speaker 1: analog UH and so it's taken up by basically hungry 721 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,440 Speaker 1: cells in the body like they think it's glucose. Happens 722 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,600 Speaker 1: in the brain and neurons UM and then it emits 723 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,520 Speaker 1: radiation small amounts, but this can be this can be 724 00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 1: detected by you know, a sensor array around the head. 725 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: So basically you can give somebody this injection, have them 726 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: do anything you want really, like they could run around 727 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: the block and but we have them sitting in a 728 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: chair and make stone tools in an nonconstrained way. Then 729 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: you walk them over to the scanner about half an 730 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: hour later, I have I've been doing this for half 731 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: an hour UH and you collect an image of where 732 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,160 Speaker 1: the gluco is built up right. UM. So this is 733 00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:11,319 Speaker 1: great because you can do it UM and have them 734 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,280 Speaker 1: do real tasks outside the scanner. UM. But it's limited 735 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 1: because you know, you've got time averaged over half an hour, 736 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: and you can only do a couple of different conditions 737 00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: because it does involve radiation exposure and you don't want 738 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,760 Speaker 1: to give anybody too much and so you know, UM, 739 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: the fm R. I you mentioned you have to be still, 740 00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: but we can take advantage of the fact that. Let's 741 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: get a little theoretical, but neuroscientists have largely converged on 742 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:37,879 Speaker 1: the idea that one of the ways we understand what 743 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: we see other people do is to internally simulated ourselves 744 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: in fact using the same neural systems. UH. And this 745 00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: is probably an important way that we learn from others 746 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: as well, which is an important research question too. But 747 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: we can take advantage of that, and we show people 748 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: films of toolmaking in the scanner, and so this is 749 00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: most directly relevant to observational understand ending and learning from 750 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 1: other individuals. UM. But it does pretty much use overlapping 751 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,280 Speaker 1: systems with execution, and we've shown that, so that's another 752 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: sort of work around. And UH, colleague of mine, Shelby Putt, 753 00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 1: is using something called functional near infrared spectrography ay F 754 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:21,799 Speaker 1: near as anyway is what I what I remember, UM, 755 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,919 Speaker 1: and that actually uses near infrared visible light that can 756 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,919 Speaker 1: penetrate the cranium and get some information on blood flow 757 00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 1: from superficial areas of the brain, and that you can 758 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: wear while you're doing something as well. So there's some 759 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: a few workarounds that you can do to actually use 760 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,359 Speaker 1: neuroimaging techniques, and I wonder, um, are there I don't 761 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,160 Speaker 1: know if anybody's looked at this, but would there be 762 00:40:45,200 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 1: differences in the brain between um, doing doing a task 763 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 1: and stone tool creation and simply imagining the task because 764 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 1: of all, you know, we've looked on the show a 765 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,279 Speaker 1: bunch of times about simply imagining doing something is very 766 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: similar in the brain to actually doing it. Yeah. UM, 767 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: so it's similar in very interesting and important ways, but 768 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: also different in important ways, and particularly in the context 769 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:16,359 Speaker 1: of stone toolmaking, where some of the things that were 770 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 1: interested in are the actual skill to really deliver the 771 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: right amount of force to the right place. Um, we 772 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,279 Speaker 1: want to actually tap into that somehow. Um. We did 773 00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 1: do an experiment though, um, in which we were more 774 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: interested in the uh, the kind of planning aspects and 775 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: the evaluation aspects, and we had just people looking at 776 00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 1: stone tools and answering questions about what would be the 777 00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:45,879 Speaker 1: good thing to do next, which is basically asking them 778 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:48,879 Speaker 1: to mentally imagine and simulate the actions, and you tap 779 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: into different aspects of the task demands there. So we 780 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: can use both. But but there are aspects of stone 781 00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 1: tool making that are very reliant I think on actually 782 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: doing it. All right, we're gonna take a quick but 783 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: we're gonna jump right back in with our interview. Thank 784 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 1: thank alright, we're back. Just recently, I happened to be 785 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: reading a couple of papers in UM, I think Frontiers 786 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: in Psychology. I believe about the possible role of UM, 787 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: possible role of tool use in the development of consciousness. Uh. 788 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,480 Speaker 1: The the idea under this new framework was that maybe 789 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,520 Speaker 1: consciousness has something to do with creating states of objectivity 790 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: in the mind where you can sort of like imagine 791 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: and correctly judge the properties of an object that is 792 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: not yourself. UM. I don't know if you've read that, Mariano. No, 793 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: this was Oh I'm sorry. I can't remember the guy's name, 794 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: but he's from Europe somewhere. I think he might have 795 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: been mas streaked. Okay, yeah, I don't I don't know that, 796 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 1: but um yeah, I mean there are potential uh links 797 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: between consciousness. This is great for me. Actually, I I 798 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:01,759 Speaker 1: told you how I, you know, got into this. I 799 00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: thought I wanted to be a philosopher and all this 800 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:05,920 Speaker 1: certain I'd love to get around the consciousness. They say, 801 00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, you wait till after you have tenure, maybe 802 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 1: wait to get longer than that. You know, maytel you're 803 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,960 Speaker 1: all the time. Um, but I do think there is 804 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 1: a potential that there there might be some way we 805 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 1: could gain insight there. You know, if you think about 806 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,600 Speaker 1: what are the things that actually require consciousness, Like what 807 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: is consciousness actually good for? Um? And you know some 808 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,439 Speaker 1: people have said basically nothing, uh you know, but but 809 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,120 Speaker 1: if there is something that it's good for, it's for 810 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: tasks that require attention. I mean, that's what consciousness is. 811 00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,480 Speaker 1: It's attending to things, uh, really getting the whole brain 812 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: on board, uh, you know, and focusing on on this 813 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: one thing. Um. And I think that uh, learning a 814 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: skill like stone toolmaking is the kind of thing that 815 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: demands that concentrated attention. And if consciousness is the way 816 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: that you get that, if consciousness is the feeling that 817 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: you have when you fully attend to things, then then 818 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: then maybe there is a relationship there. I mean some 819 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,719 Speaker 1: of the other things people you can as you know, 820 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 1: you can get into a car and uh start thinking 821 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 1: about something else and drive to work when you meant 822 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: to go to the store and so forth, which is 823 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, this sort of zombie stuff is pretty scary. 824 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:17,080 Speaker 1: Actually the things that you can do without being aware 825 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,640 Speaker 1: of it, um. But things people can't do are sort 826 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,920 Speaker 1: of sustain hopefully conversations like what we're having here. Uh, 827 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: you know, the stay focused, um, very skilled activities. I mean, 828 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: if you're like a race car driver, you wouldn't drift 829 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,200 Speaker 1: away and think about something else that demands your attention, 830 00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: demands consciousness. UM. So I think when we pick up 831 00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:38,840 Speaker 1: tasks in the past UM that required people to really 832 00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,719 Speaker 1: focus and attend UM, we might be picking up things 833 00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,080 Speaker 1: that are diagnostic of the need for conscious states. Of course, 834 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: one of the interesting things about tasks like that, like 835 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 1: work with your hands, is that it requires a lot 836 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: of consciousness when it's new to you, and over time 837 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:57,160 Speaker 1: requires less and less exactly. And that's why you know, 838 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,280 Speaker 1: unfortunately we we really have to focus on study being 839 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 1: uh people who are learning um rather than you know, 840 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 1: expert performance is still interesting in many ways, UM, but 841 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:09,000 Speaker 1: if you want to get at the real demands for 842 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:11,920 Speaker 1: something like conscious attention, that's going to happen when you're 843 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: figuring it out later on. And I mentioned to some 844 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: of the people that can make a hand act really well, 845 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 1: and like, you know, twelve minutes, they don't have to 846 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,319 Speaker 1: think about it at all. Um, Someone like me, I 847 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: have to attend to it so much that what always 848 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,240 Speaker 1: happens is I, you know, I I give demonstrations of napping, 849 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: and then I will always wind up cutting myself because 850 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: trying to talk about it and do us you know, 851 00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: and you're not focusing on it. Um. So yeah, it 852 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: is the more skills you get, the more you can 853 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: ignore the low level stuff and think about something else, 854 00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,160 Speaker 1: you know, like making it a really appealing hand ax 855 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,279 Speaker 1: versus just trying to get something you can use. Do 856 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:47,040 Speaker 1: you happen to find that the most beautiful hand axes 857 00:45:47,080 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: are also the best to like, the most functional, useful 858 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: or those things generally aligned or not aligned. You'd be 859 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,840 Speaker 1: surprised the things that we don't know about stone tools 860 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: because of the amount of time that it takes to 861 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,240 Speaker 1: do proper experimentation and actually test these sorts of things. 862 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: So that's something that people are interested in, but there's 863 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,240 Speaker 1: only been a handful of experiments, um that actually looked 864 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: at you know, is the symmetry of the hand acts 865 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:15,839 Speaker 1: make it a more or less effective butchery tool? Um, 866 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,680 Speaker 1: does the straightness of the edge matter? Um? Do any 867 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 1: of the things to the thinness of it matter? Uh? 868 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:24,000 Speaker 1: And to the extent that has been shown, like the 869 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: things like symmetry don't seem to really matter very much 870 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,880 Speaker 1: for the function uh the UH the evenness of the 871 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: edge does seem to be important, and that might be 872 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:37,280 Speaker 1: aesthetic for some people. UM. The sort of extreme thinning 873 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,279 Speaker 1: of the hand axes that we find very appealing, I 874 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,440 Speaker 1: think because it's hard to do, is something that you know, 875 00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: maybe somewhat beneficial because you have the tool you're carrying 876 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,040 Speaker 1: around is lighter. Um. But thus far, there's not a 877 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: lot of evidence that things we think of is really 878 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,759 Speaker 1: aesthetically important about hand axes are particularly functionally important. So 879 00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,759 Speaker 1: there is another question we may not know the answer to. 880 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 1: But do you think in general, is it more widely 881 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,520 Speaker 1: assumed that people in the uh prehistoric times would make 882 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:09,919 Speaker 1: a hand axe and and that would be their hand 883 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: accidentally carried around with them, or is it something that 884 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:16,320 Speaker 1: would be made on site when it was needed. Yeah, 885 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's important to uh, for archaeologists 886 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: and for everybody to to remember when we think about 887 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: the past that these is a huge amount of time 888 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 1: over a large area. Um and they probably did just 889 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:33,000 Speaker 1: about everything at one uh time or another. Um I. 890 00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,040 Speaker 1: It's some sites where you're sitting close to raw materials, 891 00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 1: you know, like there's a site of box grove. It's 892 00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,320 Speaker 1: it's pretty close to these chalk cliffs where the flint 893 00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:46,839 Speaker 1: is coming right out. They seem to have used them 894 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,239 Speaker 1: lightly and discarded them, probably made them pretty close to 895 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:51,759 Speaker 1: the time that they were going to use them, and 896 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Um elsewhere, they may have actually 897 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: carried them around for when you don't have as much rock. 898 00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:59,279 Speaker 1: You know, when you're going far from the source, you 899 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,000 Speaker 1: probably take the hand next with you, and when it 900 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: gets dull, you re sharpen it and all these sorts 901 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: of things. Maybe you keep using it till you've whittled 902 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:08,160 Speaker 1: it down the way we do a pencil nub, you know. 903 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,600 Speaker 1: Uh So this is an area people try to understand, 904 00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:15,680 Speaker 1: um basically the economics. This is sort of an economic question. 905 00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: Uh you know, when does it make sense to just 906 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:20,799 Speaker 1: toss the hand as versus you know, carrying it with 907 00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: you and resharpening it. And it seems to be driven 908 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 1: by the things you would expect it to be driven by. 909 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,160 Speaker 1: Like distances from raw materials and the kind of activities 910 00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:30,480 Speaker 1: that you're doing. So you probably get asked this question 911 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,680 Speaker 1: a lot, especially this year since it's such a milestone 912 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,600 Speaker 1: year for the film. But we recently talked about the 913 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: about two thousand and one of Space Odyssey on the show. 914 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:42,400 Speaker 1: UM what are your thoughts about two thousand one of 915 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,640 Speaker 1: Space audi specifically of course, these scenes of these these 916 00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:51,959 Speaker 1: ancient creatures engaging in tool used for the first time. Yeah, well, 917 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 1: I mean, as you may you may be aware of 918 00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:59,240 Speaker 1: that two thousand one was actually UH produced in consultation 919 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,560 Speaker 1: with archaeologists and paleo anthropologists, so it was informed by 920 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:09,400 Speaker 1: current UH speculations hypotheses about the origins of technology at 921 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,759 Speaker 1: the time. UM. I think that we have a a 922 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:17,640 Speaker 1: different view now. UM. I think if you would ask 923 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:22,960 Speaker 1: most most archaeologists about the origins of tool use and technology, 924 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,920 Speaker 1: they get very excited about things like cooperation and collaboration 925 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,880 Speaker 1: UH as as being a real turning point for for humans, 926 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,040 Speaker 1: and we are very cooperative species and this makes a 927 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:37,439 Speaker 1: lot of things possible. Whereas that vision UM was much 928 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,040 Speaker 1: more about the importance of killing each other UH and 929 00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:44,520 Speaker 1: the sort of you know, the the killer ape basically, 930 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:46,960 Speaker 1: And if you want to take a step back from that, 931 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:49,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot of my my other colleagues and in 932 00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: anthropology and other disciplines who might point out that these 933 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,239 Speaker 1: things are heavily influenced by our own social views at 934 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,120 Speaker 1: the time about what's important, because some of it's is, 935 00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,360 Speaker 1: you know, uh, myth make about human origins and what 936 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,640 Speaker 1: we think human nature is, and after World War Two 937 00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:05,719 Speaker 1: it seemed pretty obvious we're all about killing each other. 938 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,879 Speaker 1: Right now, we'd like to think it's about cooperation. Uh. 939 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:10,640 Speaker 1: I don't want to get too heavy on that, because 940 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 1: there actually is uh empirical are there are empirical arguments 941 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,160 Speaker 1: that can be made about this, in particular looking at 942 00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:22,560 Speaker 1: comparisons across species and the importance of cooperation versus competition 943 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 1: in different contexts. So there is a framework for for 944 00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,840 Speaker 1: doing this. But it is interesting to think about our biases. 945 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 1: But are certainly two thousand one fantastic film. I like, 946 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,440 Speaker 1: I wish the introductory segment we're a little bit quicker 947 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,000 Speaker 1: because I like to use it in my classes, but 948 00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:40,120 Speaker 1: we have to sit there for like half a students 949 00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,920 Speaker 1: aren't up for it. Um. Yeah, So I think it's Uh, 950 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,960 Speaker 1: they did their best to work with the current understanding 951 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: at the time. It's a great movie. This is another 952 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,400 Speaker 1: realm where we might ask you to speculate if you're comfortable. 953 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,600 Speaker 1: But one of the things we talked about with two 954 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,279 Speaker 1: thousand one was the idea that you know, so when 955 00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,560 Speaker 1: the ape like creature is first encounter the monolith in 956 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 1: the in the savannah, UM, they they are changed in 957 00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,960 Speaker 1: some way. But it's often assumed that maybe this is 958 00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:12,040 Speaker 1: some alien technology that goes in and changes something in 959 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 1: their brain. But an interpretation we talked about in the 960 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,839 Speaker 1: episode is one that that's actually not what happens. That 961 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:21,480 Speaker 1: what happens is they see this object in their environment 962 00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:23,879 Speaker 1: that it's nothing like the rest of their environment. It 963 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:28,680 Speaker 1: looks completely artificial, and it's simply seeing that spurred something 964 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 1: in their imagination that allowed them to to take up 965 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 1: the tools. UM. And that makes me wonder about what 966 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,440 Speaker 1: what what would you imagine could be the role of 967 00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:44,680 Speaker 1: simply seeing things in the environment to inspire the taking 968 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:49,359 Speaker 1: up and creation of tools. Yeah, I mean it's probably, uh, 969 00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,359 Speaker 1: probably very important. I think this is the kind of 970 00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:59,520 Speaker 1: thing that that archaeologists are loath to actually talk about 971 00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:03,280 Speaker 1: because you're talking about like, uh, you know, individual acts 972 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,680 Speaker 1: of invention um that happened in the past, whereas the 973 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:09,440 Speaker 1: sort of the record that we have is this really 974 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,760 Speaker 1: really high level, averaged sort of sort of thing. Um. 975 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,600 Speaker 1: So it's hard for us, I mean, but clearly, you know, 976 00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,839 Speaker 1: we shouldn't forget these things are inventions. They're not like 977 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 1: mutations or just inevitable things that happened like somebody at 978 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,120 Speaker 1: some point had a new idea and did it. And 979 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,280 Speaker 1: then whether they were inspired by particular things in their environment. 980 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: We like to think about, well, what kind of what 981 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,040 Speaker 1: were the kinds of things that they commonly encountered, and 982 00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,440 Speaker 1: we could have some leverage to talk about that. You know, 983 00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:39,279 Speaker 1: if they moved into a bit of a of a 984 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 1: foraging niche, then they may be around these animal bones, 985 00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:46,319 Speaker 1: you know, if there are stones available. Uh, if they 986 00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: cracked nuts um occasionally, as chimpanzees do, you're going to 987 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,600 Speaker 1: accidentally fracture the rock and and you know you could 988 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: imagine imagine an aha moment there. But those are things 989 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,640 Speaker 1: that are very difficult to actually get to. Um. What 990 00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:03,400 Speaker 1: I what I will say about the vision in in 991 00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,440 Speaker 1: two thousand one is that it is an idea of 992 00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,880 Speaker 1: a transformative moment um, and this is something that was 993 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,600 Speaker 1: also very current and maybe is to a certain extent, 994 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:15,880 Speaker 1: the idea that the invention of the earliest stone tools 995 00:53:15,880 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: should be some kind of transformative, great leap forward that 996 00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,920 Speaker 1: you know, that changed everything, and that doesn't seem to 997 00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,239 Speaker 1: be the case. Actually. I mean, we now have one 998 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,680 Speaker 1: site at three point three million where they made stone tools, 999 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:31,920 Speaker 1: the next one is at two point six million, with 1000 00:53:32,080 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 1: nothing in between. Now we're going to find eventually something, 1001 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,160 Speaker 1: but it's not a lot. It didn't like take off 1002 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,040 Speaker 1: and go crazy, and and even at the two point 1003 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,600 Speaker 1: six there's just a few and it's not around two 1004 00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:44,040 Speaker 1: million years ago that they start doing this regularly in 1005 00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:46,680 Speaker 1: a lot of places. So there's this huge long period 1006 00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:49,200 Speaker 1: of time where they're again stone tools. Maybe you could 1007 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: do it sometimes when it's worth it, I don't know. 1008 00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:54,960 Speaker 1: And so it wasn't like this sort of you know, 1009 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,680 Speaker 1: gun that went off and everything changed, which is a 1010 00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,120 Speaker 1: different perspective than what we used to have. Well, it 1011 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,719 Speaker 1: thinks it makes me think about even today and in 1012 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,680 Speaker 1: modern society. You know, you have a new business as 1013 00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,120 Speaker 1: a new type of product, and it's always losing money 1014 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,120 Speaker 1: at first, right, Uh, it makes me wonder if, yeah, 1015 00:54:12,560 --> 00:54:16,160 Speaker 1: were these things um more trouble than they were worth 1016 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,839 Speaker 1: to begin with, and how if that's the case, how 1017 00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,880 Speaker 1: would you get through that? You know, how would you 1018 00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,520 Speaker 1: trust it to keep making them? Yeah? I mean it's 1019 00:54:24,560 --> 00:54:27,560 Speaker 1: hard to say. I think you know, my my favorite 1020 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,319 Speaker 1: sort of pet hypothesis right now is that, yeah, it 1021 00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,120 Speaker 1: was just too too hard, in particular the investment in 1022 00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,000 Speaker 1: learning how to do this, uh, you know they did. 1023 00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,319 Speaker 1: Those were smaller brand individuals. They didn't have the same 1024 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,279 Speaker 1: learning capacities that we have, and for whatever at the time, 1025 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,400 Speaker 1: I think there was too steep a cost. I mean, 1026 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:47,759 Speaker 1: occasionally it seemed worth it, um, but only a few 1027 00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,320 Speaker 1: individuals would learn, and and then they had to spend 1028 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,200 Speaker 1: so much time figuring it out that you know, it 1029 00:54:52,239 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: was didn't really give them that much of an advantage. 1030 00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,280 Speaker 1: And then it was just lost in a small population, 1031 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,960 Speaker 1: and nobody did it for however long you know, um, 1032 00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,759 Speaker 1: but you on long enough, and there may have been 1033 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:05,399 Speaker 1: some selection either on the toolmaking or on other things 1034 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,080 Speaker 1: that they were doing that eventually lowered the costs for 1035 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,360 Speaker 1: them a little bit. It wasn't quite such a stretch 1036 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:12,120 Speaker 1: to be able to do this, and that's where I 1037 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 1: have the chance of it actually paying for itself and 1038 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,759 Speaker 1: then it would take off. So that's currently because when 1039 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,680 Speaker 1: it does take off around two million years ago, it's 1040 00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:21,960 Speaker 1: very close in time to the appearance of Homo erectus, 1041 00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:25,920 Speaker 1: which has a larger brain and body, So you know, coincidence. 1042 00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,080 Speaker 1: But they've messed around for a long time until something 1043 00:55:29,239 --> 00:55:32,840 Speaker 1: changed about the cost benefit equation. I think, Ye, so 1044 00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:36,640 Speaker 1: many tantalizing mysteries. I'm just imagining these sort of many 1045 00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,640 Speaker 1: dark ages. Uh, and they're learning huh. Yeah, I mean 1046 00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,759 Speaker 1: if you think of these small groups very isolated, you know, 1047 00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,759 Speaker 1: I mean, somebody could have a great idea and then 1048 00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,040 Speaker 1: you know, they have a bad year and everybody dies, 1049 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:52,040 Speaker 1: and that we think of it again for five years. 1050 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, we keep asking you to speculate about stuff. Uh, 1051 00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,239 Speaker 1: these are the kind of questions we love to ask. 1052 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, obviously people should understand that there 1053 00:56:02,560 --> 00:56:05,440 Speaker 1: there are tons of limitations on what we can know 1054 00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,720 Speaker 1: empirically about things this far in the past. So besides 1055 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:10,440 Speaker 1: what we've talked about so far, what else do you 1056 00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:15,120 Speaker 1: find most fascinating about studying Stone age technology? Like what 1057 00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:18,440 Speaker 1: really gets your gears going about it. I mean, I guess, 1058 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:21,840 Speaker 1: uh one thing, maybe it's a bit a bit technical. 1059 00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,480 Speaker 1: We we we started to talk about the relationship between 1060 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:29,840 Speaker 1: stone toolmaking and language, and one of the ideas that 1061 00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:33,680 Speaker 1: we discussed is that it created selective pressures that benefit 1062 00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,360 Speaker 1: for being able to communicate better, which eventually led to language. 1063 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,799 Speaker 1: But there's another idea that, uh, that there's a more 1064 00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,319 Speaker 1: direct connection between toolmaking language because they might depend upon 1065 00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,320 Speaker 1: some of the same cognitive and neural systems. Right. Uh 1066 00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:51,880 Speaker 1: So this is an old idea, you know, relating to 1067 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,120 Speaker 1: the idea that there's kind of a syntax of action, 1068 00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,600 Speaker 1: that the way we structure sequential actions is similar to 1069 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:01,640 Speaker 1: the way we structure words and a sentence. In fact, 1070 00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,919 Speaker 1: words and a sentence are sequential actions. Uh. So there's 1071 00:57:05,960 --> 00:57:09,440 Speaker 1: clearly some really important differences. Um. But there's also the 1072 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:12,239 Speaker 1: possibility that some of the systems that we use just 1073 00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:16,120 Speaker 1: to put together complex sequence of actions and toolmaking are 1074 00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:18,760 Speaker 1: also important to language evolution, so that if you had 1075 00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:22,520 Speaker 1: selection acting on toolmaking, it would provide a foundation from 1076 00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,480 Speaker 1: which then you could get language evolution. And you know, 1077 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,800 Speaker 1: some of the work that we've done generally uh supports 1078 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,480 Speaker 1: that idea that there is overlap, particularly in what people 1079 00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:37,200 Speaker 1: call Broca's area of the inferior frontal gyrus, which is 1080 00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:41,200 Speaker 1: related to language processing but also uh to putting together 1081 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,960 Speaker 1: complex actions of other kinds. UH. And so currently what 1082 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,840 Speaker 1: we're working on is actually putting a people in the 1083 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,120 Speaker 1: scanner or showing them videos of toolmaking, have them listen 1084 00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:55,560 Speaker 1: to language. UH. We use computational methods to to parse 1085 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:58,320 Speaker 1: the structure of the language and the structure of the toolmaking, 1086 00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,880 Speaker 1: and we see if the kind of the syntactic structure 1087 00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:03,920 Speaker 1: that we see in the toolmaking and in the language 1088 00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: produces the same responses in the brain. And UH, that's 1089 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,360 Speaker 1: not done yet, but so far we have some encouraging 1090 00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,800 Speaker 1: results along those lines. So this this idea that uh, 1091 00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:17,840 Speaker 1: basic action sequencing and statistical learning that you would have 1092 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:21,080 Speaker 1: for putting together complex actions provided the foundation for language 1093 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,440 Speaker 1: evolution is something that I would like to continue pursuing. 1094 00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:26,640 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. I mean, if you even if you just 1095 00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:29,960 Speaker 1: think about your experience in there, there are ways that 1096 00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:34,880 Speaker 1: putting together a sentence can sometimes feel somewhat analogous to 1097 00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,560 Speaker 1: step by step activities with the hands, like the way 1098 00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,280 Speaker 1: that uh, you know if you're used to speaking, or 1099 00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,320 Speaker 1: if you're used to doing an activity, it can happen 1100 00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,640 Speaker 1: like we were talking about, mostly unconsciously. But then there 1101 00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:47,280 Speaker 1: are those moments where you feel you're maybe ready to 1102 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,000 Speaker 1: break the sentence or something, and you slow down and 1103 00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:54,160 Speaker 1: it becomes more conscious. Um. Anyway, that's just what made 1104 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,960 Speaker 1: that made me think of very much. So, Uh. You 1105 00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 1: know that Morton Christensen is another colleague of It's written 1106 00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,800 Speaker 1: a bit about the concept of language as a skill, 1107 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 1: and you think about it, uh, trying not to think 1108 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,920 Speaker 1: about it while I'm speaking, and that that's the point, 1109 00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,400 Speaker 1: because if you're attending to exactly how you're enunciating the 1110 00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,280 Speaker 1: words and so forth, you lose the threat of what 1111 00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,200 Speaker 1: you're trying to say. So you need to be able 1112 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,800 Speaker 1: to very rapidly translate sort of a high level in 1113 00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:21,680 Speaker 1: tension into very particular motor actions. And then when you 1114 00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,840 Speaker 1: talk to me, I have to very rapidly translate what 1115 00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,400 Speaker 1: you're saying into a sort of a loose summary. I mean, 1116 00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,439 Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly what you said five minutes ago, 1117 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,160 Speaker 1: but hopefully I have a general idea of what we've 1118 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:35,040 Speaker 1: been talking about. Uh. And so this is skill, it's 1119 00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,640 Speaker 1: It's just like when you uh, A famous example a 1120 00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:40,760 Speaker 1: is you know, skiing down a mountain slope. I mean, initially, 1121 00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:42,560 Speaker 1: if you don't know what you're doing, you're focused on 1122 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,760 Speaker 1: how you're positioning your feet and so forth. Later on 1123 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:48,160 Speaker 1: you can ignore that and focus on, you know, skiing 1124 00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:51,480 Speaker 1: the slope, and and so your focus of attention moves. 1125 00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:53,760 Speaker 1: Um in this the same language and toolmaking, and I 1126 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,400 Speaker 1: think the neural systems are related to each other. Yeah, 1127 00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:58,320 Speaker 1: it's kind of like how if you I think they're 1128 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,400 Speaker 1: actually even studies of this that if you focus too 1129 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,160 Speaker 1: consciously on, say like shooting a basketball, you get worse 1130 01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,600 Speaker 1: at it. Yeah, yeah, exactly experienced the flow. Yeah, you 1131 01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:10,160 Speaker 1: have to, you have to. You have to automate a 1132 01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,000 Speaker 1: lot of it. Yeah. Well, Dietrich, this has been so great. 1133 01:00:13,040 --> 01:00:15,440 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you, 1134 01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:21,800 Speaker 1: thank you. I really enjoyed it, alright, So we hope 1135 01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:24,640 Speaker 1: you enjoyed our conversation with Dietrich Stout. I know Robert 1136 01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,200 Speaker 1: and I did. Um. So if you want to follow 1137 01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:29,880 Speaker 1: up and check out any of the centers we mentioned, 1138 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,520 Speaker 1: like the Center for Mind Braining Culture that's c MBC, 1139 01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:34,800 Speaker 1: dot Emery dot E d U but you can also 1140 01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,120 Speaker 1: we'll put a link to that on the landing page 1141 01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,960 Speaker 1: for this podcast. You can also check out the Paleolithic 1142 01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,320 Speaker 1: Technology Laboratory site at scholar Blogs dot Emory, dot e 1143 01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:45,840 Speaker 1: d U slash stout lab. And then there was one 1144 01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:49,960 Speaker 1: more thing that Dietrich emailed me about. So he talked 1145 01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:53,680 Speaker 1: in the interview about the role of sound in toolmaking, 1146 01:00:54,160 --> 01:00:56,840 Speaker 1: and so he sent me actually a link to a 1147 01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,160 Speaker 1: study where you can be a participant in trying to uh. 1148 01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,560 Speaker 1: It's a study where they ask you about your experience 1149 01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,840 Speaker 1: with certain types of you know, like playing a musical 1150 01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:07,880 Speaker 1: instrument or something like that, and then you get to 1151 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:12,160 Speaker 1: listen to different stone napping sounds and estimate the size 1152 01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,600 Speaker 1: of the chip that was produced by the sound you're 1153 01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,440 Speaker 1: listening to. I guess, not produced by the sound, but 1154 01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:20,400 Speaker 1: that the sound was correlated with And we'll make sure 1155 01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,320 Speaker 1: the link for that is on the landing page as well. 1156 01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:26,280 Speaker 1: In the landing page for this episode, you will find it. 1157 01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:29,800 Speaker 1: It's stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. That's our mothership. 1158 01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:32,000 Speaker 1: That's where we have all the episodes. That's where we 1159 01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,320 Speaker 1: have links out to our various social media accounts. That's 1160 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,760 Speaker 1: where we have our tab for our store where you 1161 01:01:36,760 --> 01:01:40,640 Speaker 1: can purchase some merchandise with our logo or something related 1162 01:01:40,680 --> 01:01:43,720 Speaker 1: to particular episode. 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If you would like to get in 1172 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:12,000 Speaker 1: touch with us with feedback about this episode or any other, 1173 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,840 Speaker 1: uh to suggest a topic for the future, just to 1174 01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:16,960 Speaker 1: say hi, let us know where you listen from, how 1175 01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,000 Speaker 1: you found out about the show. Stuff like that. You 1176 01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:21,840 Speaker 1: can email us at blowed the Mind at how stuff 1177 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:33,720 Speaker 1: works dot com for more on this and thousands of 1178 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:43,440 Speaker 1: other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com. B