WEBVTT - Paul Schrader / "First Reformed" 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.919 You're listening to play back a Variety I Heart Radio podcast. 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.759 I'm your host, Variety Awards Editor Chris Tapley. This week, 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.439 we're wrapping up our chats with OSCAR nominees this year 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:28.520 with Paul Schrader, writer and director of First Reformed. Paul 0:00:28.560 --> 0:00:32.400 received his first ever nomination this year for Original Screenplay 0:00:33.640 --> 0:00:36.279 after what's been a very long and iconic career. It's 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.600 been a long time coming for him to get this recognition. 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:40.360 So I was very excited to get him in here 0:00:40.360 --> 0:00:42.519 and finally discussed this film, which has actually been promoting 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.240 for well over a year. Uh. Movie debuted at the 0:00:46.320 --> 0:00:49.960 Venice Film Festival in two thousand seventeen. Next week, just 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:53.120 to let you know, leading into the Oscars, we'll be 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.280 wrapping things up there with a special episode full of 0:00:56.320 --> 0:00:58.880 all of our interviews with various folks who are out nominated, 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.040 not just for Oscars this year, about for Spirit Awards. 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:03.960 The Independent Spirit Awards will be on today before the 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.960 Oscars as usual, So look forward to that next week. 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:12.319 And for now, here is my chat with Paul Schrader Weather. 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:19.399 Huh yeah, I remember I remember this one month. I 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:26.640 remember when I lived here one month, brand three weeks. Yeah, 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:30.720 you ready to go? Man? Okay, everyone, I'm here today 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:35.000 with the Oscar nominated writer and director of First Reformed, 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:39.720 Paul Schrader. Thanks for coming on the show man, Uh, 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.960 first and foremost. As I was saying earlier, congratulations, that 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.720 was I was thrilled. I mean this especially because this 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.760 is a movie that's been This movie premiered at Venice 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.560 in two thousand and seventy. Strange. You know, independent film 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.120 Excuse me, I have a little bit of ronchitis. Uh, 0:01:55.160 --> 0:01:57.200 independent film can have a very short life, you know, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.240 sometimes as long as three or four days. We're now 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:04.160 in the six month of this film's life. Um, it 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.320 being sort of in the conversation that long, it's kind 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.160 of amazing. But we're ready to step off stage. I 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.519 was just gonna ask, I mean, I'm sure you've never 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:16.600 promoted a film for this amount of time in your life. 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:20.000 I mean, did you take into account I've been promoting 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:24.920 Taxi Driver for fifty years. Yeah. I mean, it's just 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.960 it's such a crazy notion to to kind of live 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:31.120 with a movie for this long as it opened different 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:33.480 doors in the material for you, as you've lived with 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.080 it this long in the Afterglobe having made it and 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.360 released too much. I mean, I have a rather peculiar career. 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:45.400 I work on spec I've done a few assignments over 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:48.120 the years, but mostly I have my own little shop 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:51.280 which is just consist of me and you know, come 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.720 up with something right at package it, put it together 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:58.680 and rather than do something really past year, I just 0:02:58.800 --> 0:03:04.399 decided to play this out because it was a real 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.560 sense of fulfillment, in a sense of a circle being 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.920 rounded off. Is it your most rewarding film for yourself 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:17.359 that you've made. It's the greatest sense of completion. Yeah, 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:22.799 the sense of, ah, whatever I came to do, I've 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:25.720 done it. Now. I don't know what I'm gonna do next, 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.280 but I certainly don't have a sense that I didn't 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:34.000 do what I set out to do. You know, fifty 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:39.960 years ago when I started following in love with movies, Yeah, uh, 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:43.240 and this, you know, you received critical accolades all all season, 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:44.960 one of the most critically acclaimed films of the year. 0:03:45.400 --> 0:03:47.080 Ethan Hawk, who we had on the show around the 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.920 time of release. Tons of accodes for him as well. 0:03:50.480 --> 0:03:53.160 And this culminates with your first Oscar nomination, which, again, 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:57.640 so happy for that was that particular recognition anything that 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:02.360 you ever saw it No, not real. I mean, uh, 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:06.080 you don't want to define yourself in that way. You 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:07.760 don't want to get to a point where you say, 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.120 if I'm not nominated, I'm less of an artists are 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:15.760 I'm less accomplished? And and tru was be told if 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:20.280 this film wasn't nominated, and it wasn't critically acclaimed, it 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:26.200 would still be a good film. And so I know that. Uh. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:29.040 But on the other side of the coin is that 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.960 when you get involved in this peculiar phenomenon we have 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:36.920 now of Awards season. I was talking to pl Pabloski 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:40.840 about this. It so steeps into your bones that you 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.680 find yourself caring about something that previously you didn't really 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.200 care about. And how lovely, by the way, speaking of Pablo, 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:50.200 that you're both nomineas this year, because I know Eda 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.640 was a big influence on you. Uh well, Eda was 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:56.520 the movie. I was gay Pavil the award at the 0:04:56.560 --> 0:04:59.360 New York Society Film Critics and we got to talking 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:02.039 and after the that walking up Town is what I 0:05:02.080 --> 0:05:05.320 decided to write this script. That's amazing. I'm sure he 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:09.120 knows that story, right, now yeah, uh, has there anything? 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.920 Has there been anything like particularly eye opening about having 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:16.120 been a part of an awards circuit like this. I 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.000 mean you've been around the block, You've seen it all right, 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.640 but something like this is there? Is there anything that's 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:22.560 just like a new shade in in an interesting way 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:28.359 for you? No? I mean I think it is, um, 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:32.839 you know what it is a kind of addiction because 0:05:33.200 --> 0:05:36.599 you really wanted to be over, but then when it's over, 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:40.520 you're going through withdrawal. So um, you know, you don't 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:44.960 quite know how to deal with it all. But you know, 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:47.679 and there's a fairly recent phenomena. It's just so post 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.960 Harby Warrant, students Awards season and stuff. I mean I 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:55.560 remember and taxi driver. I went through the ceremony, but 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:57.480 I got sick and I left early. But there was 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.720 nothing else. There was nothing but or nothing And after 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.440 we're um swift swifty loser had a party and I 0:06:03.480 --> 0:06:11.240 went about it and and so this six months you know, 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:16.240 the Roman campaign you know began uh you know in 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:18.840 con a year ago, you know, I mean it wasn't 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:22.120 in coin, but that's where they started putting pieces again. Yeah, 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:26.600 so this is has been quite phenomenon. Yeah, I take 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:29.120 some of the blame for that. Uh. You know, I'm 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:31.880 the awards editor here Variety, and yeah, I mean around 0:06:31.880 --> 0:06:34.200 two thousand one is when I started covering the awards season, 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:38.560 and and it just it's it has become as someone 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:40.800 who makes his his his living with it. It's become 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:43.960 a ridiculous phenomenon. Well, I mean it's driven by all 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:48.440 these advertisements. You know, these publications who saw their ads 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.960 fall off because of the Internet. All of a sudden, 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:56.719 this became the new or sometimes the only stores of revenue. Yeah, 0:06:56.800 --> 0:06:59.440 I mean it's it's rather incestuous that way. It's it's 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.400 it's a unique business. I mean, what can we say? Um, 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:04.280 I want to go back here a little bit and 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.440 just talk about your work and critical writing before becoming 0:07:07.440 --> 0:07:10.240 a filmmaker, you know, being an acolyte, if you will, 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.920 of Pauline Kale and and uh yeah, you know, whenever 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.640 someone makes that kind of a transition from journalist slash 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:21.040 critical writer essayist, what have you to doing the work 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.160 that you've been writing about? Uh? Was it a difficult 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:27.679 transition where you really eager to do it? I didn't 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:31.160 think I had much choice because I had no set 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.000 out to be a film critical that was my goal 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:37.800 and and Pauline had set up a job for me 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:40.520 in c L and I didn't take it, and I 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.920 was a little thrown by that. Um I should I 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.360 In my mind I said, maybe I should have taken it. 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:50.480 But something helped me back. And then I left the 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.480 a f I I. I was the first year fellow 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.920 there and I got a dispute with George Stevens and 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.680 I left that. Then Uh, my marriage all apart. Then 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.360 I didn't have any money, and then I didn't have 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:07.960 a place to live, and um, I realized that non 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:10.920 fiction wasn't going to do it for me. There was 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:17.400 something growing inside me that was very dark and very angry, 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:20.680 and I said, I've got to give expressions this I 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:25.480 have to make. I have to realize this thing, or 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:27.720 this thing is going to become me. You know. I 0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:31.559 was in the car and driving around and drinking. There's 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.840 a gun in the car. And at that time here 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:40.959 in La you could go over to the uh pussy 0:08:41.000 --> 0:08:43.160 Cat on Santa Monica. It was open all night long 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:45.440 and you can people go and go there and sleep 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:51.880 beside other things and and out of that darkness I 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.559 got a bleeding also and went in the hospital. And 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:59.079 in the hospital I realized this idea of this kid 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:04.520 and this yellow coffin trapped flowing through the city, seemingly 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:07.839 surrounded but absolutely alone, And I said, that's me and 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:12.640 and so I wrote that script as therapy. I wrote it, 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.440 do not become Travispecktle. And that was its primary function 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.920 for almost a year. You know. It wasn't put out 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:24.040 the cell or anything. And I drifted around the country 0:09:24.080 --> 0:09:26.200 then and got my mental health back, and I came back, 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.240 and about a year later I was back reviewing again. 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:34.439 A year later, I was talking to the Palmo and 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.679 I mentioned I had written a script wance. He said, 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:38.599 oh no, no, non't please, please, don't guilt to me. 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.040 And but I he did to read it, and he 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.440 gave it to Mari, and then that's where its life 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:47.640 started coming up. Yeah. Did you feel, uh, did you 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.040 fully and properly exorcized what you were trying to do? Yeah? 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:54.880 I think that artists can be very, very functional. Uh, 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.400 as as functional as almost any other tool. You know, 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.719 you can you know, you can drive a nail into 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:08.360 piece of wood with the arts functional and uh, and 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:13.160 I still more or less operate in the same way 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:16.240 I did back then. Not every film, of course, but 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.000 you know, every several years you returned and you say, 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.920 what issues are really troubling me now at this stage 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.719 in my life. What are the metaphors possible metaphors for 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:33.199 that issue, and how can a story be explored with 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:37.880 that metaphor? And you know, so you're just ruminating things. 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.599 You know. At one point I wanted to do a 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.199 bid life movie and for six months I couldn't find it, 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.640 and then it came to me in a dream. Um, 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:50.760 a drug dealer I had known came to me in 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:52.520 a dream and we were talking. I woke up at 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.679 six of the morning and um, he was right in 0:10:55.760 --> 0:10:58.000 my face. I said, Wow, that was vivid. Why did 0:10:58.080 --> 0:10:59.920 he come to me? Like, what were we talking to 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:01.679 about it? He said, or he wanted to know about 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:05.880 the movies. I said, that's him. That's my midlife crisis. 0:11:06.360 --> 0:11:08.720 A four year old drug delivery boy. It was bought 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.600 his quitting to go into gothmetic and he has no skills. 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.400 That's it. That's what I've been looking for him. And 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.199 so that movie became Light Sleeper. We had Willham on 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.319 the show last year actually talking about that. Um, I 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:24.360 find I saw this thing. I read something about the 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:26.439 fact that you didn't watch movies when you were young. 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:28.640 So you didn't. You don't You don't have like nostalgia, 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.440 like childhood nostalgia from movies. No. I mean I didn't 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:33.520 know anybody who watched movies either, so I didn't even 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:37.080 know I was missing anything. Uh, they were not. Uh. 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.400 We we had a Synautical decree against what they called 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.920 worldly amusements, which was done in the twenties, and then 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.800 I know, the Roaring twenties, and it was theater attendant, smoking, 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.439 card playing, dancing, drinking so far. And so that was 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:58.360 the way I was raised. And uh, and it wasn't 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:03.760 really tell college that I started getting interested in movies. 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.480 And that was just the best time to fall in 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:09.640 love with movies ever, because you're dealing with the intellectual 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:14.160 European cinema of the sixties, and all of a sudden 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.040 there were these movies that were equally serious. I was 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:20.480 a serious kid. I was in the seminaright, all of 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.719 a sudden, you go see these Berkman films, and you say, 0:12:22.760 --> 0:12:25.040 these other films, and he said, hey, wait a second, 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:29.480 there's no golf between the sacred and the profane. Bourbon 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.480 is making movies about the same thing we're talking about 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.880 in class. You know, you know, it's not like these 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.959 two worlds will never meet. They can meet. And so 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:44.280 that was sort of the excitement of of doing that 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:46.640 and then starting a film club in college and showing 0:12:46.880 --> 0:12:51.720 these films you know, uh, you know, uh, sub Rosa 0:12:51.840 --> 0:12:55.480 and all of that, you know, and so um, so 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.439 I came to films as an adult and uh, I 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:02.440 had to back up and spend quite a few years 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.319 catching up in my film education. Yeah. I find that 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:07.600 kind of fascinating because you said that as a result 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:12.360 of that, you approach films more cerebral e analytically, even 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.240 just you know, as you just started to break down 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:15.640 how you began to write a script. I mean, this 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:17.079 is the kind of stuff we love to talk about 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:20.280 on this show. Actually, uh, and it's it seems like 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:25.240 a different approach because you know, are you running on 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.040 your gut when you're working or are you really in 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.960 your head saying how do I translate this into something 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:35.040 that reflects it? Well? Um, I believe that Scream Night 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.679 was part of the oral tradition, not the literary one. 0:13:38.559 --> 0:13:41.440 So I just keep telling the story over and over again, 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:43.959 and I'll lie in it over and over again. On 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.559 talent achieves a certain critical mass. You know, if you 0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:50.640 can tell a story for fourty five minutes and keep 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.960 someone interested, you have a movie. Yeah. Uh and uh, 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.760 And that's a good thing. You know, you're either gonna 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.080 live or die after something a good old repetition. If 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:03.520 it dies, that's good too, because you're saved the work 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.480 of writing the script that no one would really be 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.280 interested in. And if it lives, and you have enormous 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:11.199 amount of proposition because you know it all is all 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:17.199 in your head. And so uh, that's so the way 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:20.560 way I began with The Doctor Drivers the way I'm 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.520 still writing. Let's let's go to a first reform. What 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:25.560 was the genesis there? What? What? What were you? What 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:28.560 were you thinking about? It seems rather clear when you 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:29.760 see the movie, but I just want to hear it 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:31.800 from you. What was on your mind that you wanted 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:33.320 to kind of get out onto the page? Right? Well, 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.040 there was the person and in the lactual decision to 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.280 make a film about spiritual life, I had refused to 0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:42.720 do this forever. I had written a book of theological aesthetics. 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.320 But when people said, try to compare my films to 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.480 that book, I said, no, I'm not that guy. I'm 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:51.280 not going to make that feel I'm not going to 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.440 get out on that brace ody and the ice and um, 0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.120 and I just refused to. And then after that meeting 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.600 with the Volley as well, maybe it's time now to 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:03.960 write there script you swore you wouldn't write. And um 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:10.280 and of course, um, the the whole the heaviness that 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:15.480 was weighing down on us now in that what had 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:19.400 been the past, a theoretical conversation that was held generation 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.840 after generation, what it's man's purpose is becoming less and 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:29.040 less theoretical. I mean, uh, like my grandchildren might not 0:15:29.160 --> 0:15:32.040 even have that conversation, and more likely than not their 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.320 their grandchildren will not have that conversation because the species 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:37.840 will not be having that conversation anymore, because it will 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:42.600 be a different SPECIs. So that is you know, and 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:48.920 ask a lot to collogical loadstone. And so the first 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:51.240 thing I did and I said, well, I've got to 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.720 revisit all the films of this nature that I've liked 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:58.080 and see all the new ones that have been made 0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.200 in the last forty years. So you just start watching 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.040 and then you you start cherry picking and get a 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.880 little bit here, a little bit there, and it starts 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:10.960 to come together. So you know, the metaphor then, of course, 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:16.360 is the priest and not the priest the reverend in 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:21.080 this tourist church, you know, nobody attends um. And then 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.480 you started taking it from there, and you take that 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:27.920 that the reverend came from brace Own, and a little 0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.840 church came from Bergmann, and uh, the ending came from Driver, 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:36.680 the levitation came from Tarkovsky, and they getting wound up together. 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:41.480 And what surprised me most was that what was tying 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.640 all these things together was the barbed wire taxi driver. 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:54.840 There profult propulsive, minocular obsession um of that film. And 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.240 I didn't really sense that the poltergeist of Travis Nickel 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.920 had come in the room. And but he had. He 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:07.800 was across the desk from me, and I sensed his 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:10.640 president probably on his shoulder all the time. I think 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.480 I love that phrase, by the way, brasonian Ice, and 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:15.560 I love that you just you wear your influences on 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.840 your sleeve, even when when you're influenced by yourself, as 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.080 we're talking about with taxi driver in some sense that 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.520 you you're not afraid of that. Well, well, you know 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:26.120 that anybody who's honest knows that we don't do anything original. 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:29.400 You know, it's just a whole mix and match kind 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:33.800 of world, and the originality comes in the assemblage of 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:43.000 influences and insights and so that uh that I know, 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:47.200 I don't I don't see why anybody should that. I 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:51.840 feel that they create actually something new. Speaking of Pavl 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:53.040 By the way, what do you think of Cold War? 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:57.040 I like it a lot. Um. Uh, maybe I admired 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.480 it more than I liked it. I wish he had 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.280 warmed up his main character a little more. I had 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.879 talked about that and his producer, and they originally cast 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.920 a guy who was very friendly, and Pavel changed it 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:15.360 because he wanted it more like his actual father. Interesting. Um, 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:17.720 so you started to talk about you know, you work 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.080 on spec I wanted to talk about that over over 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:23.280 a career, because you know, you've been a writer, director 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:26.240 in the in the purist since your whole your whole 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.600 career pretty much. How has that search for funding shifted? 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.200 How has just that entire business of being that changed? Well, 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.800 I mean virtually everything we've learned in the last hundred 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:42.119 years doesn't apply. Uh it is um. It's changed a 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:45.080 number of times. And I at one point I thought 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.280 we were entering a new period of transition, and now 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.840 I believe we have entered a period of permanent transition. 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:53.960 That everything we learned this year we won't apply next year. 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.720 Just like when you open your computer, the moment you 0:18:56.760 --> 0:19:01.680 open the box is how to date, uh tall fast 0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.800 things are changing and every three months or so four 0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:06.960 months you've seen neither will be testing out a new 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.440 economic model. And so if you figured out how to 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.719 finance the film three years ago, that's not necessarily how 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:17.639 you're gonna finance next year. And um. So I began 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.600 in the studio system. I did four or five studio films, 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.800 and then I moved over into the independent system. Um 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:30.359 and then um um, now I'm in this kind of 0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:35.399 quasi streaming independent system uh read Eastern Allis. And I 0:19:35.480 --> 0:19:38.560 did a d d Y I called the Canyons just 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.560 to test the water. So, you know, talking to Brett, 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.280 and I said, you think you think we could actually 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:45.639 make a film just pay for it ourselves with this 0:19:45.760 --> 0:19:48.000 new technology. I think we could do that. And we could, 0:19:48.119 --> 0:19:50.560 and we did. It doesn't make money. You think you 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:53.000 could do it again? No, I could do it again. 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.119 I would. Uh Well, how about like, you know, do 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.920 do new doors kind of suddenly open up when you're 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.440 an Oscar nominee? I mean, do you do? You have 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:07.600 people people treat you a little bit differently, and that's 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.840 a little bit of a surprise because, um, you know, 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:13.879 because you realize that it means more to them than 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:15.920 it does to you. You know, I say, oh, you 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:18.520 want you got on a nomination. Yeah, you know, yes, 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:21.159 I got a nomination and my life that means so 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:28.920 much to you. Um and uh but uh uh. I 0:20:30.160 --> 0:20:34.720 have never been a particularly good employee. I had a 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.280 little good string there when I worked with Marty did 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.639 four films, and then on Bringing Out the Dead, I 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.800 could see that relationship was coming into an end because 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:46.680 there were now two directors in the room, and Marty 0:20:46.720 --> 0:20:49.320 doesn't want another director in the room. So I knew 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.320 that that was coming into an end. And I often 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:59.440 ran into trouble with assignments and adaptations just because I mean, 0:20:59.480 --> 0:21:02.280 I've never managed to hold a job in my life. 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:05.240 I just said, there's always at some point you say, 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.200 I've got a better idea, and somebody else says, we 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:10.640 don't care, and I said, well, I guess I better leave. 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:16.400 And uh so I've solid my reputation as a good 0:21:16.440 --> 0:21:19.639 employee for so many years now that I don't think 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.479 people I don't think of me as as somebody they 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:27.359 go to another job for higher um. Bringing out to that, 0:21:27.480 --> 0:21:30.399 speaking of actually loved that film, man, How did you 0:21:31.520 --> 0:21:33.480 you like how it turned out? Yes? I did. Yeah, 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:35.960 I'm a huge fan of that. Yeah. I I thought 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.880 Nick was a little too old. My only complaint, um, 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:42.879 because it was book was written by a kid, uh 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.080 when he was about twenty two, and you're gonna have 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:47.920 a breakdown in a paramedic, you're gonna have it in 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:50.119 your early twenties because by the time you get to 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.359 be in the early thirties, you've figured it out to 0:21:52.440 --> 0:21:55.400 it and so I can. I just felt that Nick 0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:59.920 was just too old in years, not in acting style 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:04.040 or anything. And uh but apart from that, I think 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:06.560 it's very cool, hilm. I really love it. Anytime I 0:22:06.600 --> 0:22:08.520 talked to someone who's associated with it, I try to 0:22:08.680 --> 0:22:11.399 bring it up. I think I talked to Patricia about 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:14.280 that one time. It's just one of those movies from 0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:16.520 that great year of n were so many great movies 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:19.000 that year. I also want to talk about Ethan Hawk 0:22:19.040 --> 0:22:21.399 I mentioned earlier. You know, the actors in your movies, 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:23.840 their vessels, you know, for for what you're doing, so 0:22:23.960 --> 0:22:28.760 much like Nicknolty, Richard DearS or she Scott well Dafoe. Uh, 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.159 Ethan why why why did you feel like he was 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:34.840 the guy for this character? Well? You know Ethan Uh, 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:38.240 if you've you've met him, He's not like this character, 0:22:38.359 --> 0:22:40.560 not at all. He's in Austin hippie, he's in Texas 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:47.760 goofball um. But he had at this age now he 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:53.560 has the striking present, those wrinkles, and I kind of 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:58.800 gravity to his appearance that we associate with tortured men 0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.840 of the cloth. And so I started thinking about him 0:23:01.880 --> 0:23:04.840 while I was writing. And I was also thinking about 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:07.919 Jake Gillenhall on Oscar Isaak, but even with ten years older. 0:23:09.080 --> 0:23:12.760 And I realized that because he had such a reserve, 0:23:14.440 --> 0:23:18.280 that maybe something good could happen if he didn't try 0:23:18.359 --> 0:23:22.000 to please you. Um. And the first time we met, 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:24.920 I said to him, you know what a recessive performances? 0:23:25.800 --> 0:23:28.480 I said, whenever you said the viewer getting interested in 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:31.479 you just leaning back and there's still interested leaning back 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.760 a little more. Don't do anything to curry their approval. 0:23:35.400 --> 0:23:37.360