1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,440 Speaker 1: and do not necessarily represent those of I Heart Media, 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works, or its employees. I spent a week 5 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 1: on call with Potsky and Armstrong, going to murders with 6 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 1: them in the middle of the night. That was pretty 7 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: amazing to know. What was it like to actually be 8 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:25,080 Speaker 1: a homicide cop. I mean, it's pretty gritty. I'd got 9 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: a call at three in the morning. It was TASKI 10 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,000 Speaker 1: saying meet us at such and such, and so I'd 11 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: go out in the mission district and then some guy 12 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: laying there with a with a knife in the middle 13 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: of his belly. I loved it. I mean, I thought 14 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: it was I love that stuff. TASKI was so unique. 15 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: He and Armstrong or or nothing alike. Armstrong was, by 16 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,279 Speaker 1: the book, very reserved. Toski had a flair and he 17 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: was much more of a dynamic, sort of interesting, you know, 18 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: real gregarious kind of guy. That's Duffy Jennings, the former 19 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: reporter at the San Francisco Chronicle. He worked with Detective 20 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: Dave Toski, the lead Zodiac investigating for the San Francisco 21 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: police department tasks. Personality and style won him attention, but 22 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:09,040 Speaker 1: it also put him in the crosshairs. The Zodiac had 23 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: gone quiet and press coverage of him had all but disappeared, 24 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: but that was about to change. So in April of 25 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 1: ninety Zodiac had not been heard from for four years. 26 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: There has been no letters, but just in case, the 27 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: newspaper still put samples of Zodiac's earlier letters and envelopes 28 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: tacked onto the mail slot cabinet where the copy boys 29 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:39,600 Speaker 1: sorted the daily mail, just in case they saw anything 30 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: that remotely resembled these old letters. So in in April one, 31 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: one morning, the copy boys are sorting mail. I'm at 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: my desk. I haven't even thought about Zodiac for a 33 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: long time. A copy boy named Brent Ward walks up 34 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: to my desk with an envelope in his hand, and 35 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: he said, hey, um, take a look at this. Does 36 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: this look familiar to you? It went off like a flash. 37 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, that definitely looks like Zodiac. A man 38 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: in a mask robbed and tied and stabbed them, leaving 39 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: them for dad. Subject stated, I want to report a murder, 40 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 1: no a double murder. I did it. A man who 41 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: wore an evil style executioner's hood, carried the knife and 42 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: gun and intended to use them. They haven't Arrestie because 43 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 1: they can't. I'm not damn Zodiac. Who is the Zodiac 44 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: and where is he? From my Heart Radio, How staff 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: works and Tenderfoot TV. This is monster, the Zodiac killer. 46 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 1: The Zodiac craved at tension in the media obliged him. 47 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: Even the major detective Dave Touski and his suspect Arthur 48 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: Lee Allen received their share of the spotlight, and their 49 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: stories provide an important lesson to other investigators, the independent 50 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:09,639 Speaker 1: investigators who hunt for the Zodiac on their own, exploring 51 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: leads that others ignore, finding new suspects that had previously 52 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 1: escaped notice, and making connections that others dismissed as coincidence. 53 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: I got on the phone to call Dave Toski. I 54 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: couldn't reach him. He was out of the office. He 55 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,519 Speaker 1: came back to the office and they told him you 56 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 1: got a call from Duffy at the Chronicle. He thinks 57 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: he has a Zodiac letter, so he came down and 58 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: together we opened the letter. Dear editor, this is the 59 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: Zodiac speaking. I am back with you. Tell herb Kane. 60 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: I am here, I have always been here. That city 61 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 1: pig Toski is good, but I'm smarter and better. He 62 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: will get tired then leave me alone. I'm waiting for 63 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: a good movie about me. Who play me? I am 64 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: now in control of all things yours truly, Zodiac guess 65 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: San Francisco Police Department zero. He said, I'm gonna take 66 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: it over to Paul Shimoda for verification. Paul was the 67 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: documents expert at the US Postal Service. An hour or 68 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: two later, he called me back and said, Shimoda says 69 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: it's the guy. So we did a story. Zodiac is back. 70 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: It's his usual taunting of police for failing to catch him, 71 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: and some reference to that city pig Tosky. San Francisco 72 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 1: Police displayed a blackboard with excerpts of the latest Zodiac letter. 73 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: Police are convinced it's authentic. DRD. San Francisco Police Chief 74 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 1: Clemdamika said it's the sixteenth letter received from the Zodiac Killer. 75 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: I'm the first since Letter number sixteen has breathed new 76 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: life into the investigation of at least six leaders named 77 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: on the Zodiac files will be reviewed again. For the 78 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 1: last nine years, the Zodiac investigation has been headed by 79 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: homicide Inspector David Tusky. I had Lewis beating that he 80 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 1: was not dead and that he was out there somewhere, 81 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: and that he would communicate. I was always looking that 82 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: he would communicate and and not commit an act. A 83 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: letter I can handle, you know, it's a front page story. 84 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: Zodiac had not been heard from for four years. What 85 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: happened after that was we had a column going on 86 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: in the paper at that time, a serialized fiction column 87 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: called Tales of the City, and it was being written 88 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: by a writer named Armistead Mopan. Mopan's column included a 89 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: character based on Detective Dave Toski. He'd sometimes received fan 90 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: mail about that character, anonymous fan mail that Mopan suspected 91 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: had been written by Toski himself. Toski is on the 92 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: fire for writing phony fan letters about himself to a 93 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: newspaper feature writer, and Mopan today came up with farm 94 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: more serious charges that there are similarities between the letters 95 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,679 Speaker 1: Tuski admits writing to Mopan and the most recent Zodiac 96 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: letter of last April. I received the bogus fan letters 97 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: in the fall of nine seventy six. I took no 98 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: official action on them at the time because I regarded 99 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,719 Speaker 1: them as harmless. As a harmless if somewhat reckless action 100 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 1: on the part of a police officer, I chose to 101 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 1: turn the matter over to police only when I noticed 102 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: certain similarities between the tone of the letters and the 103 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,280 Speaker 1: tone of the last Zodiac letter. Because there had been 104 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: no Zodiac news for four years, there were people who 105 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: thought this was Tusky trying to regenerate interest in the 106 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: case and attention on him. So an investigation ensued internally 107 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: in the police department, and Tusky was questioned about this. 108 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: He denied that he'd written it. He acknowledged that he 109 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: had written anonymous notes to Armistead Mopen. His credibility was 110 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: called into question. The police chief removed him from the 111 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: homicide detail, put him back in robbery and pawn shop detail, 112 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: and it was the beginning of the end of his 113 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 1: career on the San Francisco Police Department. This letter and 114 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: the suspicions around it tarnished his credibility, and ultimately he 115 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: retired out of the force, having never caught Zodiac and 116 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: under a cloud of suspicion that was some of his 117 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: own doing. And I know Dave started to go downhill 118 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: after that emotionally. Because he investigated over a hundred murders 119 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 1: in his career and had all this attention, Dave had 120 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: become a icon of his own. He wore an upside 121 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: down shoulder holster, he wore bow ties, He had his 122 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: favorite snack, this trademark box of animal crackers, and he 123 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 1: had a persona that was gregarious. He was an Italian kid, 124 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: grew up in San Francisco, and you know it's sad 125 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: because he loved the attention. Well, I think it affected 126 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: his work on a day to day basis. I don't 127 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:07,119 Speaker 1: believe he ever did write a zodiac letter. I just don't. 128 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: I just know him well enough to know that that 129 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: wasn't true. But he became reclusive after that. This much 130 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: can be said with certainty. There is no official police 131 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: clamp on INSPECTATASKI talking with the media. That matter is 132 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: entirely up to him. He would never talk to another 133 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,520 Speaker 1: media person besides me. He would tell the story about 134 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: going back to the Paul Stein crime scene every year 135 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: on the anniversary to reflect on it, and he was 136 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: candid with me about how it ate at him that 137 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: he had never caught the guy Dave Toski died on 138 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: January six, two eighteen. Toski is survived by his wife, 139 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: his two daughters, and two granddaughters. Toski died convinced that 140 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: Arthur Lee Allen was the Zodiac and haunted by the 141 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,719 Speaker 1: fact that he was never convicted of the crime. Toskis 142 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: story of obsession is familiar for many cold case investigators. 143 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,200 Speaker 1: He's not the only one to get swept up in 144 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: the Zodiac case, and Arthur Lee Allen wasn't the only 145 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: promising suspect. Ed Rust was the Valeo police officer on 146 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: duty when Darlene Farren was shot and killed at Blue 147 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 1: Rock Springs Park. For years, there had been no progress 148 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: in the case, but then, through a chance meeting at 149 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: a conference, a suspect would finally catch Rust's interest. They 150 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: had a guest speaker who was going to do a 151 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: presentation on the Zodiac killer, a man named Harvey Hines 152 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: h I n e. S. Who was actually a police 153 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: officer his investigation. It started out as a term paper 154 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: in one of his police classes, and I believe this 155 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:51,320 Speaker 1: was somewhere around it in the early nineteen seventies. He 156 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: began investigating the case on his own and became absorbed 157 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: in when I met him. This was in late nineties, 158 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: so he had been working on this case and following 159 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: it on his own time for all these years and 160 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 1: had developed a suspect he felt was the Zodiac Killer 161 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: as a man named Larry Caine. Harvey Hines was absolutely 162 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: convinced that Larry Caine was the Zodiac. There is no 163 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,320 Speaker 1: question in my mind that my suspect is a Zodiac. 164 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: Every fiber, every part of my being tells me that 165 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:36,400 Speaker 1: he is the Zodiac Killer. He had initially identified him 166 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: when he went to South Lake Tahoe, where Donna Last 167 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: had disappeared. Donna Last was a night shift nurse at 168 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: a casino in Lake Tahoe. She'd recently moved there from 169 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: San Francisco, and then on September six, after finishing her 170 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: shift at two a m. Last disappeared. The next day, 171 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: a man called her work in her landlord and told 172 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: them she left suddenly because of a family emergency and 173 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't be coming back. But Lass's car was parked in 174 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: front of her apartment and there was no family emergency. 175 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: Police searched her apartment. They found no signs of struggle 176 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: or anything suspicious, but her possessions were all there and 177 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: they suspected foul play. Lass was never seen again and 178 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:27,839 Speaker 1: her body was never found. Six months later, on March twenty, 179 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 1: a postcard arrived at the San Francisco Chronicle with a 180 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: zodiac symbol in the corner. It was addressed to reporter 181 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: Paul Avery and scrawled writing. Attached to the postcard was 182 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: an image a winter scene from a condo development ad 183 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: and words clipped for newspapers Sierra Club around in the snow, 184 00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: sought victim twelve peek through the Pines pass Lake Tahoe Areas. 185 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 1: Police and media quick we connected this postcard with Lass's disappearance, 186 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: and Harvey Hines learned in his criminology class that the 187 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 1: crime was still unsolved. Lake Tahoe was only a few 188 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: hours away, so he drove out to investigate himself. Hines 189 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 1: went through the Lake Tahoe police records and started collecting 190 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: information that he'd later compiled into an extensive report. The 191 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: following are excerpts of his report, read by a voice actor. 192 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: I reviewed the two South Lake Tahoe supplemental police reports 193 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: filed on March. Both subjects came forward after seeing a 194 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: television newscast stating the Zodiac Killer had sought his twelfth victim. 195 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: In the Tahoe area, two women had filed police reports 196 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 1: after wondering if a strange man they had encountered might 197 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: be the Zodiac Killer. The first report was filed by 198 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: Mary Highlander, a blackjack dealer. At an eyehap, Mary met 199 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: a man with horn rimmed glasses. He offered to read 200 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,119 Speaker 1: her horoscope, telling her he was an expert at the zodiac. 201 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: He said the reading would take time and asked for 202 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: her number. When he called her later, he told her 203 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 1: that he had to give her the reading in person. 204 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,319 Speaker 1: Mary arranged to meet him at her house, but something 205 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 1: felt off, so she invited her friend Nancy over. When 206 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: the man arrived, he seemed annoyed at Nancy's presence. He 207 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: looked at Nancy, indicating that he wished she would leave 208 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 1: him alone with marrying. Nancy stayed, fearing to leave her 209 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: friend alone with the subject. He stated he had recently 210 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 1: read a chart of a murderer and continued talking about 211 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: this subject, seemingly preoccupied with death. The man was very 212 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: evasive about questions asked of him by both women, and 213 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: another woman reported a strange encounter that also occurred around 214 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: the time of Donn Alas's disappearance. That woman, who wished 215 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: to remain anonymous, said that a man sat down next 216 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: to her at a pizza parlor and struck up a 217 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: conversation about zodiac signs. He told her he sold real 218 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: estate and said that a woman he had been watching 219 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: at work would quote be sorry for rejecting him. The 220 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 1: anonymous woman at the pizza parlor felt unnerved and made 221 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: up an excuse to leave. Hines was intrigued by the 222 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: police reports, so we interviewed three of Lass's former co workers. 223 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: He asked if there was anyone in Lass's life who 224 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,760 Speaker 1: seemed suspicious or had shown a particular interest in her. 225 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: I asked the same basic questions of each person I 226 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: spoke with, without exception. Each person promptly gave me the 227 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 1: name of Larry Caine. They all agreed Kine and Donna 228 00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: las knew each other. They said he was mostly a loner. 229 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: They described him as being strange. He was forty five 230 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 1: years old, had dark hair or horned, grimmed glasses, and 231 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: had sort of a pot belly. I asked if they 232 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: knew who he worked for now and They stated they 233 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: did not know, but thought perhaps for an Alan M. Dorfman, 234 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: the manager of Arizona Real Estate at the time that 235 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:59,840 Speaker 1: the victim, Lass disappeared. Although Haines was working the case 236 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: in his free time, he used his connections as a 237 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: police officer to determine Kane had moved to Lake Tahoe 238 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: from San Francisco right around the time of Lass's disappearance. 239 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: Kine had multiple social security numbers and names on file. 240 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: He'd been arrested ten times between nineteen forty six and 241 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, including for battery. A probation report from 242 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four said Kane had sustained brain damage after 243 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:29,440 Speaker 1: a head on collision with a cement truck. The report 244 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: said his injury was serious and that his recent involvements 245 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: with the law indicated a quote lack of control in 246 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: self gratification, and scientific studies show that people who've experienced 247 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: head trauma can become more likely to commit violent crimes. 248 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: Hines now had a suspect, but he still had no 249 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: clue what happened to don Alas he turned back to 250 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: the zodiacs card, What did it mean pass Lake Tahoe 251 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: areas and why did it say Sierra Club? Were those 252 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: phrases clues as to the location of Lassa's body. After 253 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 1: leaving the police department, I spent several hours studying the 254 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: postcard and driving around the lake. I began to notice 255 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: several signs marking local ski areas, and the postcard made 256 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,479 Speaker 1: a reference to areas. He decided to follow the postcard's directions. 257 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: He drove out of Lake Tahoe, past the ski areas 258 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: and spent hours trying to find a location somehow related 259 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: to the Sierra Club. I drove north of Lake Tahoe 260 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: and found the Claire Tap and Lodge and was a 261 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: private club for Sierra Club members. Only after getting out 262 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 1: of my car and walking up the driveway, I realized 263 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: the scene was not unlike the picture depicted on the 264 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: Zodiac postcard. I took pictures of the area without making 265 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: contact with anyone at the club. I then left and 266 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: returned to my motel room. I believed if I followed 267 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: the directions on the postcard, I would find Donna Lass's grave. 268 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: I believed she was buried near see A Club. Hines 269 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 1: had now identified Kine as a suspect, and he had 270 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: located a Sierra club outside Tahoe that matched the postcards description, 271 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: so Hines returned to the club to investigate. He learned 272 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 1: that the town's old postmaster, Mr. Fredericks, had stumbled upon 273 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: a strange area out in the woods behind the club. 274 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: Frederick said he thought it was a burial site made 275 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: out of logs. He described it to me as a 276 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: circle fourteen ft in diameter, and within the circle was 277 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: a six ft by six ft square with a triangle 278 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: within all these made by careful placement of locks. Within 279 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: the triangle was across like that of a grave marker 280 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,399 Speaker 1: made from thirteen stones. Mr Fredericks related that he was 281 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: very frightened, but he was convinced it was a grave 282 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: site and took pictures of him. The postmaster led Hines 283 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: out to the site. We dug a cone shaped hole 284 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: within the center of the six by six foot area 285 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: to a depth of approximately four to five ft. No 286 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,119 Speaker 1: human remains were located, However, indications were that at some 287 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: earlier point in time, the ground had been disturbed down 288 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: several feet. At this point, because of lack of time, 289 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: I had to return to Sonaro, but Hines wasn't ready 290 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: to give up. He was still convinced that Caine was 291 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: the promising suspect. Hines learned that shortly after Lass's disappearance, 292 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: Kine had moved to Las Vegas, and so Hines too 293 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: went to Las Vegas to investigate. He asked law enforcement 294 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 1: there if any crimes in the area had matched the zodiacs. 295 00:18:55,800 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 1: M O Sergeant Anderson related the following information. On Sunday, 296 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: April seventy four, at approximately ten thirty six pm, victim 297 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: Lull accompanied by her boyfriend Roy. We're in a lover's 298 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 1: Lane area of Red Rock Canyon. Well. They were parked. 299 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: A vehicle approached from the rear. According to the boyfriend, 300 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: the car was a white convertible with a black cloth 301 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: top and it was missing its front grill. A man 302 00:19:26,800 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: got out of the convertible and approached their car. He 303 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: was wearing horn roomed glasses and black gloves, and he 304 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: was holding a pistol. He then ordered Roy and Lull 305 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: out of their vehicle at gunpoint. Roy complied, but the 306 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: victim remained in the vehicle. The suspect then went to 307 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,719 Speaker 1: the passenger side to remove the victim. While he was occupied. 308 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,360 Speaker 1: Roy fled and hid in a ditch. The suspect coerced 309 00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: Lull into his car and drove off. That night, in 310 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: identified man called Lowell's parents and told them, your daughter's dead. 311 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:08,719 Speaker 1: Two weeks later, Lowell's body was found. She'd been dropped 312 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: down a mine shaft a hundred and twenty five miles 313 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: away in San Bernardino County, California, and it appears Lull's 314 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 1: killer may have barely escaped capture, at least according to 315 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,680 Speaker 1: an investigative technique that has become controversial, a NI County 316 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: deputy sheriff who felt he had made a stop on 317 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: the suspect's vehicle, was placed under hypnosis and recounted the 318 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: following information. The vehicle bore a California license plate. The 319 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: deputy recalled the suspect getting out of his vehicle. He 320 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: described the driver as being heavily tanned, wearing a sports 321 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: type jacket, horn rimmed glasses, and black leather gloves. He 322 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 1: further related there seemed to be something strange about the 323 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: female passenger. He stated she was very still and never 324 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: turned around to look in his direction or made any movement. 325 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: The encounter took place in the middle of a desert, 326 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 1: out side of radio range, so the deputy hadn't called 327 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: in the man's license plate, and no bulletin had been 328 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: issued about Lull's abduction because police had initially been skeptical 329 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: of her boyfriend's story, so the deputy let the man 330 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 1: go with just a warning. A month later, the boyfriend 331 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: thought he spotted the killer at the Spring Inn and 332 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: called the police, but by the time the police arrived, 333 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: the suspect had left. Hines looked to see if Kane 334 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: could be connected to this killing. He discovered that Kane 335 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: lived just down the road from the Spring Inn. What's more, 336 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 1: Heinz said that Kane's old boss, Alan Dorfman, told him 337 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 1: that Kane often went to the Spring Inn, and according 338 00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: to d MV records, Kane had owned a white convertible 339 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: with a black cloth top at the time of Lull's murder. 340 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: Heinz suspected Kane was responsible for the murders of both 341 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: Donna Lass and Dana Law. He felt it all lined 342 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: up too well to be a coincidence. The horn rimmed glasses, 343 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: the white convertible, the sighting at the Spring Inn. But 344 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: even if Kane killed Lass and Lull, was he the zodiac? 345 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,720 Speaker 1: As Hines continued to investigate the coincidences piled higher and higher. 346 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: Kane had not only been living in San Francisco during 347 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: the Zodiac murders, but he lived just a few blocks 348 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,959 Speaker 1: away from where cab driver Paul Stein had picked up 349 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,600 Speaker 1: the Zodiac. He had traded in a car six days 350 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 1: after Darlene Ferron was murdered in Valleo and acquired a 351 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 1: Tan Sedan similar to the car used to abduct Kathleen 352 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,479 Speaker 1: John's in her infant daughter. And it wasn't just Kane's 353 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: whereabouts and his vehicles that seemed to line up. Some 354 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,159 Speaker 1: of the suspected Zodiac victims, like Kathleen John's, thought Kane 355 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: was the Zodiac. John's identified Kane out of the lineup 356 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: of eighteen photos. I asked, are you sure, and she 357 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: said yes, And it's not just my eyes telling me 358 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: I know it in here. And she clenched her blouse 359 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,360 Speaker 1: with her fingers, nodding into a fist and pushing into 360 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: the pit of her stomach. I'm dest behind and I'm 361 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: her behind son. When I was growing up, my dad 362 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: was talking about the Zodiac since as early as I 363 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 1: can remember. In the later nineties, that's when I actually 364 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,320 Speaker 1: started paying more attention to it, and my father and 365 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: I had sat down and started looking at the Prince 366 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 1: the fingerprints from the Lake Berryessa killings. After stabbing Cecilia 367 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: Shepherd and Brian Hartnell at Lake Berryessa, the Zodiac wrote 368 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: the dates of his killings and his symbol on the 369 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: door of their car. Apparently he had kind of squatted 370 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: in his left hand left four prints on the window 371 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: of the Karma Ghia. So my dad had those prints 372 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: and his suspect, Lawrence Kane. Larry Kane, he had been 373 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: arrested for being a peeping tom and so my dad 374 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: had the booking prints from that. I scanned them in 375 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: and used Photoshop to kind of overlay and align the Prince, 376 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 1: and what we saw was very distinct, very convincing matchup 377 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 1: of those prints. So my dad made an appointment with 378 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: one of the investigators at the Vallejo Police Department and 379 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: we went up there and met with him and we 380 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: showed him the Prince, and he said that they weren't 381 00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: able to confirm that it was Larry Kane or that 382 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: the Prince match, but it also didn't discount them, so 383 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: in other words, it could very well have been the 384 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: same person. But there just wasn't enough print evidence there 385 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: to be able to make a definite match. We wanted 386 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,919 Speaker 1: to know just how good this fingerprint evidence was, so 387 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: we spoke to Dr Kimberly Moran. She's the director of 388 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: forensic Science at Rutger's univer City Camden. We sent Dr 389 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: Moran a digital version of Kane's booking fingerprints from when 390 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 1: he was arrested and the latent prints from the car 391 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: at Lake Bury Essa. I'm basically flicking back and forth 392 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: between the booking print and the latent prints. So looking 393 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 1: at the latent fingerprints, they are pretty poor for glass 394 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: because glass is usually a great substrate and these are 395 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: very very faint. So is there enough data within that fingerprint? 396 00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:32,400 Speaker 1: Can you see enough of the ridges and the individual 397 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 1: ridge flow. I mean, the right little finger I would 398 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: rank as no value, The right ring finger I would say, yes, 399 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: it has value. I can definitely see that this is 400 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: a world. I can count individual ridges. The right middle finger. Yes, 401 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 1: I would also say that's a print of value. The 402 00:25:55,720 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: right thumb. You know, there's too much uncertain but all 403 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,440 Speaker 1: you need is one finger. You don't need any more 404 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: than that. Let me look at the booking prints, Okay, 405 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: so what what this person has marked out On the 406 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 1: right ring, They've marked out a scar at the top 407 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: of the fingerprint. They've marked out two bifurcations where a 408 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 1: single ridge splits into two separate ridges. Let me just 409 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: compare the two. So looking at the latent fingerprints, I 410 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,960 Speaker 1: really do not see the scar or these bifurcations. I mean, 411 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: there's one that maybe I could be talked into, but 412 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: one point of agreement is just not enough to say 413 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: these two fingerprints are the same. These probably are not 414 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: from the same source. I don't feel like there's enough 415 00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: data to say for certain that they're not from the 416 00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,960 Speaker 1: same source. But from what little I can see, I 417 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 1: do not think that they are from the same source. 418 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: Harvey Hines compiled a report with all of his collected evidence, 419 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: but no one would take it seriously. The San Francisco 420 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: police were focused on Arthur Lee Allen, and when Heinz 421 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: shared his report with the FBI, they seemed interested at first, 422 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: but nothing came of it. Here's Harvey Hind's son Destri again. 423 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: One of the interesting things was when a new FBI 424 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: agent would contact my dad, they'd be interested in the story. 425 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: They'd be investigating that they'd you want to know who 426 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: my dad's suspect was, more about him why he thought 427 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: that the suspect was the zodiac um And they were 428 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: always really excited about, Wow, this is this is great information. 429 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to follow up as soon as I get 430 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: back to the office, I'll give you a call and 431 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: we'll move this forward. And they would just go away 432 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 1: and my dad would have to call him up and say, hey, yeah, 433 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: if you followed up on any of this or what's 434 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: happening with it, and they just wouldn't be able to 435 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 1: talk about it. So my dad was starting to wonder 436 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: if Larry Kine turned witness on someone because he was 437 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: part of the MOP, he may have turned somebody in 438 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 1: and they put him into protection program. Once you go 439 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,399 Speaker 1: in there, there's just there's limits to what the FBI 440 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 1: can do. And I started investigating you. The mafia connection 441 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: sounds outlandish at first, but remember Kane's old boss, Alan Dorfman. 442 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: Dorfman was linked to organized crime. He was indicted by 443 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: a federal grand jury and convicted of conspiracy to bribe 444 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: as senator. Three days before his sentencing, he was shot 445 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: and killed, presumably to prevent him from cooperating with authorities. However, 446 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 1: it was difficult to either confirm or dis roof that 447 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,480 Speaker 1: Dorfman was actually Kane's old boss. That was information we 448 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,080 Speaker 1: could only find in Heine's report. I fact, Larry Kane, 449 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: he was probably a hit man for this syndicate of 450 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: real estate and developers, and not like real estate and 451 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: developers you think of today, the guys that were backed 452 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 1: by the mob out of the gambling world. My name 453 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: is writer McDowell, and many years ago I was an 454 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: investigative reporter and s coovered a lot of kind of 455 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: interesting crimes. You know, I seem to pursue the psychopaths. 456 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: They are the boogeyman, but they don't look like it. 457 00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: So when somebody is exposed as being a mass murderer, 458 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: he just it's like fascinating. Writer McDowell met Hines in 459 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties and he wrote a long piece about 460 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: him for the San Francisco Examiner. Somebody had called me 461 00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: up and said, you know, writer, there's this guy that 462 00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: thinks he's caught the Zodiac killer. And I I had 463 00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 1: coincidentally recently read that Robert Gray Smith book called Zodiac 464 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: and was really intrigued Harvey was a really driven guy, 465 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: kind of shy. There's a sadness around the guy, and 466 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 1: he felt that people were mocking him and no one 467 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: would take him seriously. So I did. I think Harvey 468 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: was a bit of a crusader, you know, had this 469 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: kind of quixotic view of good and evil. You know, 470 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:28,880 Speaker 1: he was going to get this guy because this guy 471 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: was the ultimate bad guy. Early on, the name Kane 472 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,120 Speaker 1: was floated, and it did make sense in terms of 473 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: the woman in South Lake tow and then it started 474 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: to make sense in terms of the taxi driver killing 475 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: and other things. What's clear is that the guy Larry 476 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 1: Caine really was an odd person. You know, he was 477 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: up to something. One time, Kane asked a female real 478 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,200 Speaker 1: estate agent to show him a house out in the 479 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: middle of the desert. She went out there to show 480 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:00,520 Speaker 1: this house and there was nobody there, but she went 481 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 1: into the house looking around. You know, you're in the 482 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, really vulnerable, and you realized, you know, well, 483 00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: I'm actually have been more careful than this thing shows 484 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 1: up a hearse pulled up and it was a guy 485 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,360 Speaker 1: from the mortuary and he said, well, I had a 486 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: call here to pick up a body and it was 487 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: just so creepy, and this so freaked out this woman 488 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:27,480 Speaker 1: that she just quit her job. And Larry Kane was 489 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: just a creepy, odd character full of stories like that. 490 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,040 Speaker 1: Writer wanted to get Kane's side of the story, but 491 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: Kane kept a low profile. I finally got his number, 492 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: and I got it in some clever way because it 493 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: was unlisted and he had this kind of recording you 494 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: could buy that had Alfred Hitchcock, Writer prepared himself to 495 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: talk with the man he thought might be the Zodiac killer. 496 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: Bring out leave your name and numba and we're with 497 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: them your core vish breathe interruption. It was so chilling 498 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: if that really was, And I almost forgotten that. Eventually, 499 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: writer did meet Larry Kane, and Kane denied being the Zodiac. 500 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: I interviewed Kane one time. He was a very creepy guy, 501 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: but not so you'd necessarily notice if you're behind him 502 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: in a store or something. I don't know what his 503 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: life is like, but he lived in this condo and 504 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: walk around and go into town and have coffee and 505 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: and his voice is so um it had this Brooklyn accent, 506 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: you know, this New York accent seemed to me that 507 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: that would have been noticeable and either the phone calls 508 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: to the cops or at Lake DARRISA but writer says 509 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 1: one time he played a recording of Kane's voice to 510 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: Brian Hartnell, the survivor of the Lake Barry Esa stabbing, 511 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: and he said there was similarities too, because it was 512 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: a little bit of a hiccup. Cane. He would not stutter, 513 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: but there was a little kind of pause. But but 514 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: I am confident who wasn't Larry Kane. Hart Behinds did 515 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: have a certain amount of tunnel fishing, which was fascinating 516 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 1: because he seemed to have chanced upon this this other 517 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: bad guy. You know, he had been a keeeping tom 518 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: for years and some kind of gun story that he 519 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: pulled a gun on a couple of people, and you know, 520 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: he was up to no good. I've all added up 521 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: to being a really odd character that probably capable of murder. 522 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,880 Speaker 1: But it was frustrating dealing with Harvey because in the 523 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 1: beginning he would get a clue, somebody would tell him something, 524 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: and then he would just go there, and he wouldn't 525 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: chronicle all the steps, and so I couldn't really unwind 526 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: us and go back and see what who did you 527 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: talk to you there? What was this? Because I was 528 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: really going over this with a fine tooth calm. I 529 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: don't think he fabricated anything. I think you just so 530 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: oversell us that he would go to the next thing. 531 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: And I think it was like a pit bull. But again, 532 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 1: like a pit bull, he raised the head without getting 533 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: his facts tight. Harvey Hines and Larry Caine have now 534 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: both passed away. Although Hines could never find any conclusive 535 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,439 Speaker 1: evidence against Kane, he went to the grave convinced that 536 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: Larry Kane was the Zodiac. But the more you look 537 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: into the Zodiac case, there's so many guys like the 538 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: Harvey because it's it's such a compelling case. It brought 539 00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,160 Speaker 1: the amateur sleuths out of the woodwork, and it really 540 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 1: had an interesting way of doing that. I think Harvey 541 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: was part of that legion of amateur sleuths, even though 542 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,400 Speaker 1: he was a policeman by day. Harvey Hynes was a 543 00:34:56,440 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: precursor to a huge movement in the Zodiac investigation in 544 00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,920 Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties. The Internet brought access to a treasure 545 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: trove of Zodiac related information, and independent investigators like Hinz 546 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: would go on to make major discoveries. One of the 547 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: first websites dedicated to the case was Zodiac killer dot com. 548 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,920 Speaker 1: My name is Tom Voyd and the webmaster at Zodiac 549 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: killer dot com. There was nothing on the internet back 550 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: then about Zodiac. It's a lot of porn that was it. 551 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: So I decided I wanted to get some Zodiac stuff 552 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 1: on the web. When I finally got my own website, 553 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,480 Speaker 1: there were people I was talking to who had the 554 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: Zodiac information that I wanted, and they thought that since 555 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: I had a website, that I must be like a 556 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: genius or a millionaire or some secret agent or something, 557 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 1: and so they would give me documents and tell me 558 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: information that that they would never have told me. For 559 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: over twenty years, these amateur investigators have been sharing information 560 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: across Void's website. They even meet up in person on 561 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,400 Speaker 1: the anniversaries of the crimes to discuss the case and 562 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: honor the victims. We met Tom Voyd in a large 563 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: group of these self described zodiologists at a restaurant in Vallejo. 564 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,920 Speaker 1: It was the night of the fiftieth anniversary of the 565 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 1: murders of Betty lu Jensen and David Faraday. We've done 566 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 1: a lot of these events called them task force meetings, 567 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: and the first one was in two thousand two in Riverside, 568 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: and it went really well, and there were people that 569 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: showed up and had good information to share, and so 570 00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: I started doing them, you know, yearly. The big payoff 571 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: of b if there's ever a conclusion and it turns 572 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 1: out my suspect is is the zodiac. So I got Angie. 573 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: Angie's this. I've just proposed her today at crimes. This 574 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 1: is Angie. So I've met Angie at Lake Berry, SA 575 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: in two thousand four. That's where we met. It was 576 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: invitation only, you know, people had to red cabins and 577 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: I didn't want to be a cabin next to some 578 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,759 Speaker 1: nut I'd never met or anything like that. You took 579 00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 1: a chance on me. Well, we communicated through you know, 580 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: through you me on stuff. I'm still like kind of 581 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 1: a denial. I mean, we've been together for fifteen years, 582 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,799 Speaker 1: but I never in a millionaires expecting to get down 583 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: on is the I hadn't been there in a long time, 584 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: and I wanted to see it in the fog. It 585 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 1: was really cool. He was talking about how he doesn't 586 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: want it to be a sad place anymore, and that 587 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: there should be something good to think about when we 588 00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: come back. So I never thought I would get formally 589 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: engaged at a crime scene. Yeah, that's what I can 590 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,919 Speaker 1: honestly say. I can't imaginely happened to other place. Well, 591 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 1: I kind of can't either, honestly. We're all, I mean, liquorious, 592 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: and maybe it would have been a little more appropriate. 593 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: But that's okay. Maybe we'll get married there. Who knows. 594 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:32,760 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, we're back Lake Herman. 595 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,359 Speaker 1: It's all a blur at some of the anniversaries. I'm 596 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: so sick of. I didn't want to do this again, 597 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 1: these gatherings and so forth. It's just we want to 598 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,080 Speaker 1: just make some advancements, you know, and get something major. 599 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: I think I've come up with something major. It's an 600 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,960 Speaker 1: interesting bit of information that nobody knew about before. And 601 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: I think we're fifty years I do it. It's time 602 00:37:50,600 --> 00:38:03,520 Speaker 1: to solve the case. Next time one monster, the Zodiac Killer. 603 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:10,720 Speaker 1: I have thousands of theories and tips proclamations from people 604 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: who believe they've solved the Zonia. A lot of people 605 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,000 Speaker 1: have criticized it and ripped it apart online and called 606 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: me an idiot. One person said that they wouldn't have 607 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: been more surprised if I had named the Easter Bunny. 608 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: People are so influenced by the fact that three of 609 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: those coades didn't get solved. Well, they're just rubbish. There's 610 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 1: no solution to be had. It's just fake news. Zodiac 611 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: could have edited. There is a sort of intoxicating effect 612 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: when you plug in what do you think Zodiac might 613 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: have said, and it happens to fit. If you're walking 614 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: around and you have no idea what happened and who 615 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: the Zodiac is, then he could be anybody. He could 616 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,439 Speaker 1: be your uncle, he could be a guy living next 617 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 1: door or whatever. But if someone tells you, oh, I 618 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: know who it was, and he's locked up in prison 619 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: or it's dead or whatever, that's comforting. It's comforting to think, oh, 620 00:38:53,360 --> 00:39:04,360 Speaker 1: they solved it. It's been figured out. Monster the Zodiac 621 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: Killer is a fifteen episode podcast produced by iHeart Radio, 622 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works and Tenderfoot TV. Donald Albright and I 623 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: are executive producers on behalf of Tenderfoot TV, alongside producers 624 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,040 Speaker 1: Meredith Stepman, Mason Lindsay, and Christina Dana. Jason Hope is 625 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,040 Speaker 1: executive producer on behalf of How Stuff Works, along with 626 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:29,480 Speaker 1: producers Trevor Young, Miranda Hawkins, ben Kybrick, and josh Than Scott. 627 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,600 Speaker 1: Benjamin provides additional voice talent. Matt Frederick is our host. 628 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: Original music is by Makeup and Vanity Set. If you 629 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 1: haven't already, make sure to check out the first season 630 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:43,600 Speaker 1: of Monster called Atlanta Monster, about the Atlanta child murders 631 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: from the late seventies to the early eighties. Download the 632 00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: ten episode season right now. Have questions or comments, email 633 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: us at Monster at how stuff works dot com, or 634 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,759 Speaker 1: you can call us at one eight three eight five 635 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: six six six seven. Thanks for listening. M