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Speaker 1: Pushkin. The world is certainly facing a ton of happiness challenges,

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Speaker 1: but whenever I feel downhearted at the sheer scale of

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Speaker 1: the problems we need to tackle, I remember all the

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Speaker 1: people working hard to put things right. These days, there

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Speaker 1: are so many people in government, in medicine, in academia

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Speaker 1: and in the media trying to draw attention to the

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Speaker 1: importance of well being that they can easily fill a

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Speaker 1: whole conference center. The World Happiness Summit WAHA SUE for short,

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Speaker 1: has been bringing experts together since twenty sixteen to meet,

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Speaker 1: swap ideas and give talks to the public. This year's

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Speaker 1: summit was in London and I went along so I

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Speaker 1: could record a live episode of this show with a

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Speaker 1: total rock star of the British happiness community. Welcome to

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Speaker 1: the WAHASU Live version of The.

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Speaker 2: Happiness Lab.

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Speaker 1: I am. I'm super excited to introduce my guest, Doctor

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Speaker 1: Rungan Chatterjee. Doctor Chatterjee is professor of health education and communication,

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Speaker 1: the host of the Feel Better, Live More podcast, which

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Speaker 1: is the most listened to health podcast in Europe. He's

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Speaker 1: also the author of five best selling books, including his

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Speaker 1: most recent, Happy Mind, Happy Life Tends Simple Ways to

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Speaker 1: Feel Great every day, and today we're going to be

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Speaker 1: talking about why medical doctors need to pay even more

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Speaker 1: attention to happiness.

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Speaker 2: Will how's the audience.

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Speaker 1: Are you all interested in medical doctors paying more attention

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Speaker 1: to happiness? Yes, so, Rangan, You've long been an advocate

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Speaker 1: of the importance of all kinds of healthy practices, but lately,

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Speaker 1: in your most recent book, you've been making a claim

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Speaker 1: that medical professionals also have to pay attention to something else,

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Speaker 1: something that historically doctors haven't paid much attention to, which

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Speaker 1: is people's happiness. Why is a happy life important for

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Speaker 1: a healthy life?

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Speaker 3: So I've been practicing that for over two decades. Okay,

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Speaker 3: So during that time, I've seen tens of thousands of patients,

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Speaker 3: and it's very clear to me, and it's very clear

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Speaker 3: in the research that about eighty to ninety percent for

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Speaker 3: what a doctor like me it's going to see in

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Speaker 3: any given day is in some way related to our

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Speaker 3: collective modern lifestyles. Now, let me be really clear with that.

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Speaker 3: I am not putting blame on anybody. Okay, modern life

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Speaker 3: is tough, it's very stressful, and so if you start

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Speaker 3: off with the belief and the view that eighty to

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Speaker 3: ninety percent of our medical problems are in some way

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Speaker 3: related to the way we're living our lives. The next

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Speaker 3: logical step is to go, okay, well, we need to

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Speaker 3: educate our patients on what those things are that they

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Speaker 3: can then change food movements, sleep, stress reduction, the things

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Speaker 3: that I call the four pillars of health. And for

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Speaker 3: many years I've been talking about that in public and

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Speaker 3: I think that's incredibly useful. But for thelast few years

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Speaker 3: I've been wondering, is that really the root cause or

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Speaker 3: is it something even higher than that? And that's what

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Speaker 3: led me to happiness, because I realized that actually, for

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Speaker 3: many people, their lifestyle behaviors they weren't necessarily the root cause.

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Speaker 3: They were a cause of sorts, but they were a

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Speaker 3: downstream consequence of their moods, of the way they approached

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Speaker 3: the world, of the state of their lives, of their happiness.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, I think most people will in choously understand that

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Speaker 3: happier people will naturally.

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Speaker 2: Make better lifestyle choices.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you're not going to dive headfirst into a tub

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Speaker 3: of ice cream in the evening. Generally speaking, if you

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Speaker 3: feel pretty content with life, usually for most people, that's

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Speaker 3: a way of managing stress or internal discomfort or loneliness.

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Speaker 3: So I found that we can tell patients about these

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Speaker 3: lifestyle choices, but if those lifestyle choices are their way

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Speaker 3: of coping with the stress in their life, they're never

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Speaker 3: going to change the behavior unless I helped them change

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Speaker 3: their stress, for example. So that's one way of answering

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Speaker 3: your question. But actually, if you go into the research,

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Speaker 3: there seems to be this link between happiness and health

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Speaker 3: that goes beyond these lifestyle behaviors. And actually, Laurie, when

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Speaker 3: you came onto my podcast maybe two or three years ago,

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Speaker 3: you shared with me a really powerful study that made

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Speaker 3: a real impact on me, which was that study where

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Speaker 3: I think it was a psychologist who did it, when

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Speaker 3: they took people into a laboratory and they injected rhinovirus

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Speaker 3: up their nostrils. Pretty pleasant study, right. Rhinovirus is the

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Speaker 3: bug that causes the common colds. Now, what was interesting

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Speaker 3: about this study is that they could see quite clearly

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Speaker 3: an association between your mood and whether you got sick

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Speaker 3: from the virus. So basically, as Laurie told me on

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Speaker 3: my show, the group who were in the not so

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Speaker 3: positive mood agree, right, got sick three times as much, right,

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Speaker 3: So that's pretty remarkable. So why does a doctor then

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Speaker 3: need to know that? Well, if we're not thinking about

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Speaker 3: mood and well being and happiness, Well, that study is

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Speaker 3: showing a pretty compelling association between your immune system function

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Speaker 3: and your happiness. So more and more I've been led

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Speaker 3: down to the belief that actually we need as doctors

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Speaker 3: to be talking about happiness a because it directly affects

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Speaker 3: your lifestyle choices, but beyond that, independently of that, and

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Speaker 3: there's more research to support that happiness is associated with

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Speaker 3: better health.

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Speaker 1: And so as we think about happiness being associated with

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Speaker 1: better health, I think is the nerds that we are.

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Speaker 1: We also have to think about our definition of happiness,

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Speaker 1: and there are lots of different definitions of happiness out

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Speaker 1: there in the literature. You use a sort of three

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Speaker 1: prong of coach in your book, which I really quite like.

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Speaker 1: So talk to me about this sort of three parts

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Speaker 1: of happiness as you think of it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it took me over six months to try

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Speaker 3: and figure out what I call the code to happiness. Now,

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Speaker 3: of course many people have got their models for approaching happiness.

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Speaker 3: For me, as a doctor, I'm always thinking about what's practical.

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Speaker 3: We can talk about big ideas, but how does that

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Speaker 3: busy person with a busy life actually put this into practice.

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Speaker 3: So I was trying to develop a model that really

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Speaker 3: underpins its idea that happiness is a skill. Happiness is

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Speaker 3: a skill that you can get better at if you

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Speaker 3: know how to cultivate it. And so the best way

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Speaker 3: I could explain it to people was with the core

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Speaker 3: happiness stool. So it's basically a three legged stool, and

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Speaker 3: each of the legs is an ingredient of happiness. So

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Speaker 3: each one in isolation is going to help, but each

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Speaker 3: one in isolation is not enough in and off itself.

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Speaker 3: So the three legged stool of happiness, the way I

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Speaker 3: see it, is composed of alignment, contentment, and control. So

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Speaker 3: alignment is basically about when the person you are inside

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Speaker 3: and the person who you are being out there in

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Speaker 3: the world are one and the same.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So when you're.

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Speaker 3: Inner values and your external action start to line up

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Speaker 3: more and more, that's alignment. The next leg is contentment.

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Speaker 3: So what are those things in life that give you

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Speaker 3: a sense of peace, a sense of calm, and in

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Speaker 3: a sense of contentment. That's the leg of contentments. And

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Speaker 3: the final leg, which I think is even more important

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Speaker 3: today if we think about the state of the world

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Speaker 3: and what we might be exposed to if we go

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Speaker 3: online or look at the news, for example. The third

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Speaker 3: leg of the stool is control. Now I thought long

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Speaker 3: and hard about this word, because it's not about controlling

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Speaker 3: the world. It's about giving yourself a sense of control.

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Speaker 3: And it's actually such different. What are the things you

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Speaker 3: can do in life that give you that sense of control.

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Speaker 3: We know from the research that people who have a

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Speaker 3: strong sense of control over their lives, the happier, the healthier,

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Speaker 3: They do better at work, they earn more money, they

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Speaker 3: have better social relationships. So for me, the whole book

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Speaker 3: is basically about practical things that work on one, two,

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Speaker 3: or three of those legs off the stool. So you're

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Speaker 3: not directly working on happiness. You're doing something, hopefully each

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Speaker 3: day that works on alignment, contentment, and control. And the

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Speaker 3: side effects of that is you're going to feel happier

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Speaker 3: more often, and I think most people want to feel

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Speaker 3: happier more often.

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Speaker 1: One of the things I love about your book is

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Speaker 1: that you don't just start with this definition of happiness.

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Speaker 1: You really try to come up with these ten practical

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Speaker 1: domains in which people can apply different strategies to start

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Speaker 1: getting happier. And one of the ones that you start

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Speaker 1: with is trying to get past what you call the

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Speaker 1: want brain. What is the want brain?

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Speaker 2: And how do we get run?

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Speaker 3: And I can just say, the reason why everything I

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Speaker 3: do is so practical focused is if you think about

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Speaker 3: my life, you know, for many years it's been seeing patients.

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Speaker 3: So I can't just say to them, hey, look there's

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Speaker 3: a strong link between happiness and health. Okay, that was

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Speaker 3: going to help in your immune sysfunction. I see you

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Speaker 3: in a month's time. No, I mean I have to

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Speaker 3: be able to tell them and explain something. But then

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Speaker 3: I have to for me. I feel I have to

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Speaker 3: give them something that they can go and develop and

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Speaker 3: cultivate and start to feel it for themselves. So that's

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Speaker 3: why I'm always so practically focused. But the one brain okay,

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Speaker 3: so the one brain is that part of your brain

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Speaker 3: that evolved a long time again, many thousands of years ago,

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Speaker 3: that makes you think you have to compete, there is

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Speaker 3: limited resources. I have to get what's mine. It convinces

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Speaker 3: you that a promotion, a better salary, a nicer phone,

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Speaker 3: a piece of chocolate, although you may disagree with that,

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Speaker 3: but it convinces you that that's going to make you happier.

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Speaker 3: And actually, for most of those things, it's actually a myth.

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Speaker 3: And we know that because there's a lot of research

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Speaker 3: showing us that there's some research where they phone people

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Speaker 3: up at various parts of the day after they've engaged

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Speaker 3: in certain activities, and we find that actually when people

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Speaker 3: have just brought something online, or they've had a bit

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Speaker 3: of chocolates, or you know, they're getting seduced by the

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Speaker 3: modern myth of success, which often means in the workplace

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Speaker 3: that people feel less motivated, they feel less confident, and

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Speaker 3: they feel depressed.

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Speaker 2: But the one brain.

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Speaker 3: Is very, very powerful, and I think we're living in

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Speaker 3: a time where society and culture very much prioritizes the

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Speaker 3: one brain. So many of us get sucked into this

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Speaker 3: trap that more work, more promotion, more Instagram followers, more

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Speaker 3: whatever is going to make us happy. And by and large,

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Speaker 3: in most cases, if you identify that with your happiness,

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Speaker 3: it's going to be a disappointment. And I can tell

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Speaker 3: you I started the book with very I think it's

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Speaker 3: a very powerful story of my dad. So my dad's

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Speaker 3: came to the UK in nineteen sixty two from India

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Speaker 3: for a better life, and Dad faced all kinds of

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Speaker 3: discrimination and all kinds of things that many immigrant families

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Speaker 3: at that time will have experienced. But basically, for thirty years,

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Speaker 3: my dad worked four nights a week, right, so he

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Speaker 3: worked in the day as a consultant medical doctor at

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Speaker 3: manster Warm Infirmary. But Dad would come home every night,

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Speaker 3: he would shave, he'd have his dinner and then a

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Speaker 3: car would pick him up at seven pm and Dad

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Speaker 3: would be out doing gp house course all night. He'd

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Speaker 3: come back at seven am shave, Mum had give him

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Speaker 3: breakfast and he'd drive for thirty minutes back into Manchester

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Speaker 3: and work all day. So for thirty years, my dad

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Speaker 3: only slept for three nights a week, right. And at

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Speaker 3: fifty seven, my dad gets loopus, he gets chronic kidney

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Speaker 3: failure and he's on a dalist machine for fifteen years.

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Speaker 3: And my dad died almost eleven years ago now. And

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Speaker 3: I'm convinced that this wants brain, that this belief that

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Speaker 3: success and more money is going to make you happier

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Speaker 3: and the people around you happier. I'm convinced that's why

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Speaker 3: my dad got sick and that's why he's no longer here.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's such a powerful story. Of course, the

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Speaker 1: problem is it's so hard to shut off the want

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Speaker 1: brain from the basic physical wants of like ooh chocolate

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Speaker 1: to ooh promotion, ooh more money. What are some strategies

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Speaker 1: we can use to tackle the want brain. You have

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Speaker 1: an exercise that I think we might even be able

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Speaker 1: to try out quickly here with this audience.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, I mean one of my favorite exercises is

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Speaker 3: in chapter one of the book. It's called your Own

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Speaker 3: Happy Ending, and it's so simple. But I think if

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Speaker 3: you take nothing else from our conversation, but just do

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Speaker 3: this exercise and maybe share it with someone in your

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Speaker 3: family or someone who's sitting next to you later on,

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Speaker 3: I honestly believe it will change the trajectory of the

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Speaker 3: next few weeks and months of your life. And it's

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Speaker 3: so so simple, right, So the first stage is and yes,

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Speaker 3: as Laurie says, try and imagine it and do it now.

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Speaker 3: If you can imagine you're on your deathbeds right now,

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Speaker 3: look back on your life and ask yourself, what are

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Speaker 3: three things you will want to have done or spent

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Speaker 3: time on what does he think about that?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 3: And then the second part of the exercise is you

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Speaker 3: bring it into the present day and go, Okay, what's

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Speaker 3: three happiness habits do I need to do each week

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Speaker 3: that will give me the happy ending I've just defined

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Speaker 3: I want. It is deceptively simple, right, So for me,

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Speaker 3: at the end of my life, I will want to

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Speaker 3: have spent quality time with my family and friends. Like

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Speaker 3: everyone else, I will want to have done something that

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Speaker 3: impacts the people around me in a positive way. And

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Speaker 3: I will want to have spent time or have had

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Speaker 3: time to pursue things that I'm passionate about. So for me,

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Speaker 3: my three weekly happiness habits are and these are written

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Speaker 3: up on my fridge at home, so I see them

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Speaker 3: every day, just on a piece of paper, nothing fancy,

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Speaker 3: very low tech, scrap piece of paper and a pencil.

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Speaker 2: Right, I specify.

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Speaker 3: I want five meals a week with my wife and

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Speaker 3: my two kids where I'm completely undistracted.

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Speaker 2: Okay, may not work for you. That works for me.

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Speaker 3: I need to record one episode in my podcast each week,

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Speaker 3: which I've been doing for six and a half years,

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Speaker 3: because I know that will have an impact on the

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Speaker 3: world around me. And if I've had time each week

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Speaker 3: to either go for long walk in nature, play my guitar,

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Speaker 3: write some songs, play snooker with my son, whatever it

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Speaker 3: might be, I know I've had time to pursue my passions. Now,

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Speaker 3: why that's such a powerful exercise. It doesn't necessarily remove

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Speaker 3: the want brain, Right, It doesn't mean I don't also

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Speaker 3: get seduced into these belief systems that the culture will

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Speaker 3: kind of feed in.

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Speaker 2: But it means that.

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Speaker 3: I'm intentionally focusing on the things that are important every

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Speaker 3: single week. Now, those things don't take long. Right, It

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean that my email inbox won't overflow, and I

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Speaker 3: might get stressed about that. But the problem today, in

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Speaker 3: my view, is that we fit in the important things

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Speaker 3: when everything else is done. But the problem is today

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Speaker 3: everything else is never done. There's always something else. There's

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Speaker 3: always another email to answer, another person to get back to,

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Speaker 3: another WhatsApp message group to reply to. Right, And so

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Speaker 3: if you don't intentionally put in your diary the things

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Speaker 3: that are important for your happiness, I think your happiness

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Speaker 3: is going to wither away. And it's a simple exercise,

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Speaker 3: but it's very very effective. I do it myself and

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Speaker 3: I've done it for years with my patients and they

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Speaker 3: really really like it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's so powerful too, because what this exercise

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Speaker 1: causes you to realize is that, like, you're never going

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Speaker 1: to have time to get everything done, Like you're going

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Speaker 1: to have a bunch of balls in the air, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of those balls are going to fall. But

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Speaker 1: the key is to make sure the right balls fall.

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Speaker 1: And our instinct is never that we let the email

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Speaker 1: ball fall, because it's like you know, pinging in our

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Speaker 1: phones in our pockets. But this sort of forces us

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Speaker 1: to say, there's a reason I'm not entering my email,

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Speaker 1: and it's because I'm having dinner with my kids.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I often i'm the worst person, or one

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Speaker 3: of the worst people in the world at getting back

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Speaker 3: to emails. But you know what, I've made peace with that.

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Speaker 3: I'm okay with that because me not getting back to

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Speaker 3: emails generally means I'm spending time with my children and

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Speaker 3: my wife, and so I've got very clear that that's important.

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Speaker 2: Now here's the thing about that deathbed exercise.

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Speaker 3: Right, we all think we're different, and we all have

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Speaker 3: individual likes and needs and wants, and yes, of course

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Speaker 3: there's variability but on one level, we're not that different.

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Speaker 3: You know, palliative care nurses who have sat with dying people,

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Speaker 3: like Bronnie Ware, who wrote the book The Five Regrets

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Speaker 3: of the Dying, who I had a beautiful conversation with

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Speaker 3: last year when she was in London.

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Speaker 2: On my podcast.

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Speaker 3: She explains that after eight years of sitting with dying people,

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Speaker 3: what are the things that they say? And they all

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Speaker 3: say the same things. I wish I hadn't worked so hard.

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Speaker 3: I wish I'd spent more time with my friends and family.

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Speaker 3: I wish I'd lived my life and not the life

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Speaker 3: that other people expected of me. So for me, these

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Speaker 3: things aren't just cute Instagram memes which go viral, right,

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Speaker 3: They don't have to be. We can convert it into action,

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Speaker 3: We can use it as a way of thinking. I

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Speaker 3: don't want to wait until my death bed to learn

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Speaker 3: what's important, right, And it's the thing I didn't mention

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Speaker 3: my dad. One thing I will say, though, just to

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Speaker 3: which I think is really important. And I've reflected on

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Speaker 3: this since I wrote the book and shared the story

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Speaker 3: of my dad's One thing I can't say is that

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Speaker 3: he made the wrong choices. And I'll tell you why

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Speaker 3: I can't say that. If my dad was here today,

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Speaker 3: one of the questions I'd love to ask him is Dad,

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Speaker 3: was it worth it? Because you know what, for him,

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Speaker 3: coming from India where he didn't feel there was much opportunity,

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Speaker 3: he may go to me, and I suspect he would actually.

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Speaker 3: And this is where my view has evolved since I

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Speaker 3: wrote A Happy Mind, Happy Life. I think my dad

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Speaker 3: was a lie. Today he may say, hey, son, listen,

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Speaker 3: it was totally worth it. I'd do it all again

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Speaker 3: because look how I've set you up with a great education.

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Speaker 2: Look what impact you're having on the world. Look what

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Speaker 2: your brother's doing.

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Speaker 3: And I'm now sort of seeing the other side and

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Speaker 3: going actually, for him, maybe it was worth it.

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Speaker 1: But the key and the beauty of this exercises you

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Speaker 1: can figure out what's worth it for you, which is

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Speaker 1: so powerful. So in our second tip from your book,

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Speaker 1: we're going to explore a practice that you find most important.

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Speaker 1: But unfortunately we have run out of time, and that

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Speaker 1: means that all of you can only figure out Ronan's

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Speaker 1: second most important thing. If you listen to the Happiness Pod,

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Speaker 1: can we get a big round of a plaza? That's right,

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Speaker 1: Runkan and I only had about twenty minutes on stage

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Speaker 1: and then we had to make way for some other

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Speaker 1: great speakers.

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Speaker 2: But kindly the.

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Speaker 1: World Happiness Summit folks set us up in an empty

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Speaker 1: auditorium next door so we could continue our conversation, which

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Speaker 1: is coming up right after this quick break. So we're

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Speaker 1: now done our conversation at Wahasu in front of that big,

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Speaker 1: amazing audience, and now we are in a different auditorium

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Speaker 1: That might sound a little bit echoey because there's nobody

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Speaker 1: in here. We're sitting out here looking at like one

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Speaker 1: hundred emptyc which is a little strange.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, and we were just getting going were we

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Speaker 3: I know, like there was a real energy in there

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Speaker 3: in the room, and now we've got to recreate that

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Speaker 3: for the second time.

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Speaker 1: But which is a good way to jump to your

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Speaker 1: second tip that we were just about to talk about before,

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Speaker 1: which is this idea that we need to treat ourselves

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Speaker 1: with kindness and treat ourself with respect even when the

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Speaker 1: situation like this one might be a little bit tricky.

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Speaker 1: And one of the reasons I loved your book so

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Speaker 1: much is that you're really candid about the fact that

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Speaker 1: this is something that you have struggled with yourself a

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Speaker 1: little bit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting, Laurie that you know I mentioned the

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Speaker 3: three legs of the stool, and I mentioned alignments and

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Speaker 3: the importance of living in a way that is aligned

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Speaker 3: with who we really are. And for this book, actually

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Speaker 3: it's the most vulnerable I've ever been, to the point

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Speaker 3: where my wife, who never reads any of my books

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Speaker 3: until the final stage, is when she read it she

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Speaker 3: actually said, Hey, wrong, going to be sure you want

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Speaker 3: to put all of this in your book. And I

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Speaker 3: think I'd be on this happiness journey myself, and I

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Speaker 3: feel that it is important as long as I'm comfortable

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Speaker 3: with it which I am to share the things or

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Speaker 3: some of the things that maybe I previously wouldn't have shared,

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Speaker 3: because it's kind of who I am. It's led to

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Speaker 3: who I am today. And I think that negative inner

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Speaker 3: voice is one of those things. I think I've had

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Speaker 3: a pretty vicious inner voice for much of my life.

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Speaker 3: I never felt good enough growing up. You know, there's

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Speaker 3: two signs to every story. There's definitely not about blame.

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Speaker 3: But this is actually not that uncommon in immigrant families,

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Speaker 3: certainly here in the UK.

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Speaker 2: I would say I can only speak for that.

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Speaker 3: But if I came home from school when I was

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Speaker 3: six or seven with nineteen out of twenty, it was

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Speaker 3: never well done. It was always what did you get wrong?

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Speaker 3: Why didn't you get twenty? If I ever came back

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Speaker 3: and I was second in the class, Mum and Dad

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Speaker 3: would always ask, well, who came top? How many points

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Speaker 3: lower were you? How can you come top next time?

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Speaker 3: And I didn't realize until about ten years ago what

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Speaker 3: an impact that has had on me on my life,

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Speaker 3: because I never felt full the love for.

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Speaker 2: Who I was. Now.

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Speaker 3: I'm not blaming my parents. They were doing the best

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Speaker 3: that they could and for them, as immigrants to the UK,

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Speaker 3: their belief system is we face a lot of struggle

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Speaker 3: and discrimination. If my child can be a straight A

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Speaker 3: student and get a really good job like a doctor

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Speaker 3: or a lawyer, they're not going to have any problems.

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Speaker 3: The problem is that little Wrongan developed the belief at

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Speaker 3: a young age that I'm not good enough unless i'm

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Speaker 3: number one. And for all my success, and we spoke

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Speaker 3: about the want brain earlier, I've had more success than

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Speaker 3: I could have dreamt off as a child, But that

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Speaker 3: success is not why I'm sitting with you here today, Laurie,

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Speaker 3: as happy and contented as I've ever been. In fact,

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Speaker 3: that success has taught me that success doesn't make you happy.

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Speaker 3: For me, at least, it didn't make me happy. What

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Speaker 3: makes me happy is when I live in harmony with

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Speaker 3: who I am, want to have a meaningful relationship with

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Speaker 3: my wife, When I get time each week to spend

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Speaker 3: quality time with my children. You know, I live five

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Speaker 3: minutes away from my mother. I help to look after

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Speaker 3: and care for her. These are things that actually make

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Speaker 3: me happy. So how does that fit in with being

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Speaker 3: kind to yourself? Well, when you don't feel like you're

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Speaker 3: good enough, you will develop certain traits to compensate. So

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Speaker 3: I have been very competitive for much of my life.

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Speaker 3: A lot of my best friends will tell you wrong,

435
00:23:39,116 --> 00:23:41,476
Speaker 3: as one of the most competitive people I know. But

436
00:23:41,516 --> 00:23:45,076
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm not anymore because that competitiveness was

437
00:23:45,076 --> 00:23:48,116
Speaker 3: an adaptation. If you only feel that, you get love

438
00:23:48,196 --> 00:23:53,676
Speaker 3: when you're top of the tree, while developing the behavior

439
00:23:53,836 --> 00:23:58,916
Speaker 3: trait of competitiveness is a genius adaptation because it drives

440
00:23:58,956 --> 00:24:02,076
Speaker 3: you to do more and to achieve more. But as

441
00:24:02,116 --> 00:24:05,436
Speaker 3: I've made peace with my upbringing, I've done a lot

442
00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:07,116
Speaker 3: of you know, for once of a better term in

443
00:24:07,156 --> 00:24:09,996
Speaker 3: a work, and I I feel very at peace with

444
00:24:10,036 --> 00:24:12,396
Speaker 3: who I am. I like the person who I am today,

445
00:24:12,876 --> 00:24:16,476
Speaker 3: so I no longer need the trait of competitiveness. So

446
00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:18,876
Speaker 3: I believe that you can actually change a huge part

447
00:24:18,876 --> 00:24:22,076
Speaker 3: of who you are, not everything, if you go in

448
00:24:22,116 --> 00:24:24,876
Speaker 3: and do the work, maybe with a healthcare professional or

449
00:24:24,876 --> 00:24:30,196
Speaker 3: a therapist. And today my inner voice is really really kind,

450
00:24:30,996 --> 00:24:33,876
Speaker 3: but it wasn't. And it's really important for happiness, Laurie,

451
00:24:33,916 --> 00:24:37,676
Speaker 3: because not just happening, but health too, right, Yeah, it's

452
00:24:37,756 --> 00:24:39,676
Speaker 3: really important for happiness and health.

453
00:24:40,276 --> 00:24:40,396
Speaker 2: Right.

454
00:24:40,516 --> 00:24:43,196
Speaker 3: So, Kristin Neff has done a lot of research Professor

455
00:24:43,236 --> 00:24:46,556
Speaker 3: Kristen nev on self compassion, and her research has shown

456
00:24:46,636 --> 00:24:51,556
Speaker 3: a really strong link between self compassion and physical health.

457
00:24:51,956 --> 00:24:54,436
Speaker 3: There's other research that shows that people who are more

458
00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:58,076
Speaker 3: compassionate to themselves not only they kind it to others,

459
00:24:58,756 --> 00:25:01,876
Speaker 3: but their immune system works better, they age more slowly,

460
00:25:02,236 --> 00:25:07,476
Speaker 3: and they're better able to stick to healthy lifestyle habits.

461
00:25:07,956 --> 00:25:08,116
Speaker 2: Right.

462
00:25:08,156 --> 00:25:11,276
Speaker 3: So self compassion is massive, and we don't realize that

463
00:25:11,356 --> 00:25:14,476
Speaker 3: if we call ourselves a loser. And I used to

464
00:25:15,516 --> 00:25:17,796
Speaker 3: like if I wasn't doing well, i'd I mean, I

465
00:25:17,876 --> 00:25:19,996
Speaker 3: share this in the book it's in fact, this is

466
00:25:19,996 --> 00:25:21,796
Speaker 3: one of the stories. My wife said, are you sure

467
00:25:21,836 --> 00:25:24,756
Speaker 3: you want to share this? I can remember at university

468
00:25:24,796 --> 00:25:28,116
Speaker 3: in Edinburgh and medical school if on a Sunday afternoon

469
00:25:28,156 --> 00:25:30,476
Speaker 3: we were at a local pool hall, just me and

470
00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:34,956
Speaker 3: my buddy's, you know, playing pool. If I was losing. Now,

471
00:25:34,996 --> 00:25:37,156
Speaker 3: I consider myself a decent player. If I was ever

472
00:25:37,236 --> 00:25:40,556
Speaker 3: losing to one of my friends, sometimes i'd go into

473
00:25:40,596 --> 00:25:44,596
Speaker 3: the restroom. I'd look at myself in the mirror, give

474
00:25:44,596 --> 00:25:46,516
Speaker 3: myself a lot of slap and say, come on, you'd

475
00:25:46,556 --> 00:25:48,956
Speaker 3: lose it, get yourself sorted right.

476
00:25:49,636 --> 00:25:50,596
Speaker 2: That's what I would do.

477
00:25:51,036 --> 00:25:53,236
Speaker 1: And you're not like a competitive billiards player. This is

478
00:25:53,276 --> 00:25:54,236
Speaker 1: like you and your maids.

479
00:25:54,756 --> 00:25:58,956
Speaker 3: I'm not a professional, right, And it would often motivate

480
00:25:58,996 --> 00:26:01,156
Speaker 3: me to go back and sort my game out, and

481
00:26:01,756 --> 00:26:04,516
Speaker 3: usually I would then go on to win. But when

482
00:26:04,556 --> 00:26:06,956
Speaker 3: writing this book, what I realized, Laurie is that I

483
00:26:06,996 --> 00:26:10,836
Speaker 3: didn't enjoy winning. The pain of losing is what I

484
00:26:10,876 --> 00:26:13,196
Speaker 3: was trying to avoid, so I didn't feel it relates.

485
00:26:12,796 --> 00:26:17,036
Speaker 2: To when i'd won. I was relieved that I hadn't lost.

486
00:26:17,916 --> 00:26:19,036
Speaker 2: And that's pretty dark.

487
00:26:19,356 --> 00:26:21,036
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, but this is a general feature of

488
00:26:21,076 --> 00:26:22,956
Speaker 1: the want brain, right, Like, when the want brain gets

489
00:26:22,996 --> 00:26:25,876
Speaker 1: what it wants, it's usually not very happy or as

490
00:26:25,916 --> 00:26:27,996
Speaker 1: happy as you thought. It's usually not satisfied. You just

491
00:26:28,036 --> 00:26:31,036
Speaker 1: like want something else immediately. And the pressure that that

492
00:26:31,116 --> 00:26:33,316
Speaker 1: can put on our mindset and our self talk is

493
00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:36,356
Speaker 1: just incredible. And so so I'm curious kind of how

494
00:26:36,476 --> 00:26:39,876
Speaker 1: you got out of this sort of really self critical voice.

495
00:26:40,036 --> 00:26:41,716
Speaker 1: But I also want you to talk about the specific

496
00:26:41,716 --> 00:26:43,916
Speaker 1: practice you recommend in the book, because as usual you

497
00:26:43,956 --> 00:26:48,236
Speaker 1: have this like incredibly straightforward, practical kind of strategy that

498
00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:50,476
Speaker 1: folks can engage in. And so talk maybe about kind

499
00:26:50,476 --> 00:26:51,836
Speaker 1: of how you got out of things, but then also

500
00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:52,876
Speaker 1: what you recommend.

501
00:26:52,556 --> 00:26:53,436
Speaker 2: For your educatients.

502
00:26:53,716 --> 00:26:56,636
Speaker 3: And I think it's important just to say that when

503
00:26:56,676 --> 00:26:59,356
Speaker 3: you call yourself a loser in your head, that is

504
00:26:59,356 --> 00:27:02,156
Speaker 3: not neutral. It's not just something you're saying to yourself.

505
00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:05,356
Speaker 3: When I suppose to Professor Kristen Neff on my podcast,

506
00:27:05,596 --> 00:27:08,036
Speaker 3: she said to me that, and she showed me research

507
00:27:08,116 --> 00:27:12,516
Speaker 3: that when you talk negatively to yourself, you elevate levels

508
00:27:12,516 --> 00:27:16,476
Speaker 3: of the stress hormone cortisol. So you are literally stressing

509
00:27:16,516 --> 00:27:19,716
Speaker 3: yourself out with that negative self talk. And I think

510
00:27:19,716 --> 00:27:21,796
Speaker 3: a lot of people don't realize that they think, Oh,

511
00:27:21,876 --> 00:27:23,756
Speaker 3: I'm just saying it to myself. It doesn't matter. No,

512
00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:29,196
Speaker 3: it absolutely matters, because that's the start of all kinds

513
00:27:29,196 --> 00:27:31,996
Speaker 3: of negative emotions like guilt and shame, and all kinds

514
00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:35,516
Speaker 3: of things which spiral and lead us to make poor choices.

515
00:27:35,196 --> 00:27:37,236
Speaker 1: In our life and negative health consequences.

516
00:27:37,236 --> 00:27:37,396
Speaker 2: I mean.

517
00:27:37,476 --> 00:27:39,916
Speaker 1: One of my favorite bits of Nef's research is that

518
00:27:39,956 --> 00:27:42,916
Speaker 1: she looks at people who are more self compassionate versus

519
00:27:42,996 --> 00:27:45,876
Speaker 1: less and their level of healthy eating, and she finds

520
00:27:45,876 --> 00:27:48,236
Speaker 1: that people who are more self compassionate can make healthier

521
00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:50,756
Speaker 1: choices in terms of what they're eating. And the cortisol

522
00:27:50,796 --> 00:27:52,796
Speaker 1: story makes total sense there. Right, if you're flooding your

523
00:27:52,796 --> 00:27:55,476
Speaker 1: brain with cortisol, you're like, I need snack food, I

524
00:27:55,476 --> 00:27:56,676
Speaker 1: need like comfort food.

525
00:27:56,676 --> 00:27:57,156
Speaker 2: I feel that.

526
00:27:57,196 --> 00:28:00,956
Speaker 3: And what I found is that lifestyle change for me

527
00:28:01,116 --> 00:28:03,236
Speaker 3: these days is a lot easier than it used to

528
00:28:03,316 --> 00:28:06,556
Speaker 3: be because I'm not trying to overcome something because I'm

529
00:28:06,636 --> 00:28:09,476
Speaker 3: kind to myself these days and compassionate to myself. Well,

530
00:28:09,876 --> 00:28:14,636
Speaker 3: a compassionate person someone who truly likes themselves and likes

531
00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:18,476
Speaker 3: to be compassionate to themselves, then probably not going to

532
00:28:19,116 --> 00:28:22,556
Speaker 3: binge eat sugar as much right, And I'm not saying

533
00:28:22,556 --> 00:28:24,156
Speaker 3: that to be critical to anyone, but we have to

534
00:28:24,196 --> 00:28:27,876
Speaker 3: understand that self compassion is a critical ingredient for health

535
00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:30,476
Speaker 3: and happiness. So how have I done it? Well, there's

536
00:28:30,476 --> 00:28:33,276
Speaker 3: been a combination of different ways. Yes, I have done

537
00:28:33,276 --> 00:28:36,396
Speaker 3: a bit of therapy, something called IFS Internal Family Systems,

538
00:28:36,396 --> 00:28:40,756
Speaker 3: which for me was incredibly helpful. But I know that

539
00:28:40,796 --> 00:28:44,996
Speaker 3: therapy is not either available or accessible to everybody for

540
00:28:45,076 --> 00:28:47,876
Speaker 3: all kinds of issues. Cost you know what you have

541
00:28:48,076 --> 00:28:50,516
Speaker 3: available to you in your area, and I don't think

542
00:28:50,556 --> 00:28:53,556
Speaker 3: you necessarily need it. You can do a lot even

543
00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:58,356
Speaker 3: without it. And so just being aware and catching yourself

544
00:28:59,196 --> 00:29:02,756
Speaker 3: when you have a negative voice, I think is really useful.

545
00:29:03,076 --> 00:29:03,316
Speaker 2: For me.

546
00:29:03,436 --> 00:29:07,036
Speaker 3: Having children has been really, really helpful because what a

547
00:29:07,076 --> 00:29:09,836
Speaker 3: lot of parents I think need to hear is that

548
00:29:09,916 --> 00:29:12,756
Speaker 3: if you have a negative voice that you say out

549
00:29:12,796 --> 00:29:17,236
Speaker 3: loud in front of your children, oh stupid me, Oh

550
00:29:17,316 --> 00:29:21,076
Speaker 3: I can't do anything right? Well, what voice do you

551
00:29:21,116 --> 00:29:23,996
Speaker 3: think they're going to develop? So for me, having children

552
00:29:24,116 --> 00:29:27,156
Speaker 3: was a really it was a huge motivating factor to

553
00:29:27,196 --> 00:29:30,036
Speaker 3: catch myself and not do it in front of the children.

554
00:29:30,476 --> 00:29:32,476
Speaker 2: Doesn't mean it's good to do it away.

555
00:29:32,156 --> 00:29:33,956
Speaker 3: From them, but Initially I didn't want to do it

556
00:29:33,996 --> 00:29:36,516
Speaker 3: in front of them because I didn't want them to

557
00:29:36,556 --> 00:29:38,436
Speaker 3: pick it up. For much of my life until the

558
00:29:38,476 --> 00:29:39,756
Speaker 3: last five or six years, I don't think I was

559
00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:40,316
Speaker 3: that happy.

560
00:29:41,076 --> 00:29:41,596
Speaker 2: I think I.

561
00:29:41,516 --> 00:29:43,996
Speaker 3: Thought more, I need to compete, I need to do better.

562
00:29:44,116 --> 00:29:46,156
Speaker 3: That's going to make me happy. But I got all

563
00:29:46,196 --> 00:29:49,556
Speaker 3: that and it didn't. That's when I stopped looking outside

564
00:29:49,596 --> 00:29:51,396
Speaker 3: and I started to turn the ship around to look

565
00:29:51,396 --> 00:29:54,556
Speaker 3: internally and go, ah, you need to do some work here,

566
00:29:54,636 --> 00:29:56,756
Speaker 3: that's what's going to make you happy. So one of

567
00:29:56,796 --> 00:29:59,716
Speaker 3: the practices in the book that I really like, that

568
00:29:59,796 --> 00:30:03,036
Speaker 3: it's really practical for people, is to write themselves a

569
00:30:03,076 --> 00:30:03,636
Speaker 3: love letter.

570
00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:05,756
Speaker 2: Now to a British.

571
00:30:05,276 --> 00:30:09,076
Speaker 3: Audience, I'm not sure there's anything more uncomfortable than say

572
00:30:09,356 --> 00:30:12,636
Speaker 3: something like that. Maybe it goes down easier in America.

573
00:30:12,316 --> 00:30:12,796
Speaker 2: I don't know.

574
00:30:12,956 --> 00:30:14,436
Speaker 1: I think not unfortunately.

575
00:30:14,476 --> 00:30:18,316
Speaker 3: Yeah, But the point of it is, can you fact,

576
00:30:18,356 --> 00:30:20,396
Speaker 3: let's make it easy. Can you write down on a

577
00:30:20,436 --> 00:30:24,116
Speaker 3: piece of paper or in your journal five things you

578
00:30:24,196 --> 00:30:25,076
Speaker 3: like about yourself?

579
00:30:25,596 --> 00:30:27,276
Speaker 1: And one of the things I love about the suggestion

580
00:30:27,436 --> 00:30:29,876
Speaker 1: in your book is you say, if you can't think

581
00:30:29,916 --> 00:30:32,876
Speaker 1: of those five things, pretend you're your best friend. Pretend

582
00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:36,156
Speaker 1: you're your dog. Pretend you're someone who really cares about you.

583
00:30:36,476 --> 00:30:37,556
Speaker 1: What would they say about you?

584
00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:40,636
Speaker 3: Yeah, pretend you're that teacher who you had in high

585
00:30:40,636 --> 00:30:42,956
Speaker 3: school that was awesome for you. What would they say

586
00:30:42,956 --> 00:30:46,516
Speaker 3: about you? Start there, because you're opening the door to

587
00:30:46,636 --> 00:30:47,476
Speaker 3: self compassion.

588
00:30:47,516 --> 00:30:48,636
Speaker 2: It can be that easy. Now.

589
00:30:48,636 --> 00:30:50,756
Speaker 3: If you can't do five, but you can only think

590
00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:53,676
Speaker 3: of one, start with one, right, and maybe over the

591
00:30:53,676 --> 00:30:55,196
Speaker 3: next few days, see if you can build up to

592
00:30:55,236 --> 00:30:57,996
Speaker 3: two or three, and look, what does the research say.

593
00:30:58,076 --> 00:31:00,796
Speaker 3: There are some really good research showing that for seven

594
00:31:00,916 --> 00:31:05,636
Speaker 3: days in a row, if you write yourself a compassionate letter,

595
00:31:06,116 --> 00:31:08,916
Speaker 3: a love letter, let's say, right, or just a letter

596
00:31:08,916 --> 00:31:12,636
Speaker 3: wait you say nice things about yourself. Three months later,

597
00:31:13,076 --> 00:31:17,596
Speaker 3: those researchers can still measure improvements in your happiness and

598
00:31:17,596 --> 00:31:18,796
Speaker 3: your subjective well being.

599
00:31:19,316 --> 00:31:20,236
Speaker 2: I mean this stuff.

600
00:31:20,316 --> 00:31:22,876
Speaker 3: What I love about it is it simple, it doesn't

601
00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:26,836
Speaker 3: cost any money, and it can have a real impact. Now, Laurie,

602
00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:29,996
Speaker 3: if anyone who's listening to this right now is pushing

603
00:31:30,036 --> 00:31:32,356
Speaker 3: back a little bit and going, I'm not writing.

604
00:31:32,076 --> 00:31:34,276
Speaker 2: Myself a love lad set, I would say, Okay, I

605
00:31:34,356 --> 00:31:34,836
Speaker 2: hear you.

606
00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:38,916
Speaker 3: But if you're pushing back, it's probably a very good

607
00:31:38,956 --> 00:31:42,676
Speaker 3: sign that self compassion is something you need to work on.

608
00:31:43,116 --> 00:31:46,276
Speaker 3: And I would just say, like with anything, start small, and.

609
00:31:46,196 --> 00:31:47,956
Speaker 1: This is you know, something that you obviously, as a

610
00:31:47,996 --> 00:31:50,356
Speaker 1: medical doctor know really well. We assume like, oh, we're

611
00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:52,636
Speaker 1: fixing our traits. If I'm self critical, I'll just be

612
00:31:52,716 --> 00:31:56,876
Speaker 1: self critical forever. But like our brains have neuroplasticity, right,

613
00:31:56,956 --> 00:31:59,796
Speaker 1: you know what fires together, wires together. Right. The more

614
00:31:59,836 --> 00:32:02,596
Speaker 1: you do these activities, the more likely it is that

615
00:32:02,636 --> 00:32:04,476
Speaker 1: it's going to become a habit that you can pick up.

616
00:32:04,516 --> 00:32:06,836
Speaker 1: So this, this writing, this love letter might seem kind

617
00:32:06,836 --> 00:32:09,476
Speaker 1: of cheesy in your journal some random Thursday night, you

618
00:32:09,716 --> 00:32:13,196
Speaker 1: do that every night, but then naturally when you're playing pool,

619
00:32:13,436 --> 00:32:15,116
Speaker 1: it will just be the talk that you bring up.

620
00:32:15,156 --> 00:32:16,956
Speaker 3: It just becomes more of a happy you bring up

621
00:32:16,956 --> 00:32:19,636
Speaker 3: some really interesting First of all, what I've realized in

622
00:32:19,676 --> 00:32:21,996
Speaker 3: life is that we get good at what we practice.

623
00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:25,076
Speaker 3: If you practice stress every day, you get pretty good

624
00:32:25,276 --> 00:32:29,916
Speaker 3: at feeling stressed. If you practice negative self talk every day,

625
00:32:30,076 --> 00:32:32,876
Speaker 3: you get really good at talking.

626
00:32:32,596 --> 00:32:33,396
Speaker 2: Down to yourself.

627
00:32:33,516 --> 00:32:37,116
Speaker 3: If you practice self compassion every day, or gratitude every day,

628
00:32:37,596 --> 00:32:38,596
Speaker 3: you get really good.

629
00:32:38,476 --> 00:32:39,276
Speaker 2: At those things.

630
00:32:39,636 --> 00:32:41,796
Speaker 3: And it's interesting just to tie up the loop with

631
00:32:41,876 --> 00:32:44,756
Speaker 3: having children. I remember a few years ago I was

632
00:32:44,796 --> 00:32:48,196
Speaker 3: actually playing pool or snooker with my son, who at

633
00:32:48,236 --> 00:32:50,636
Speaker 3: the time was about eight or nine, and I remember

634
00:32:50,636 --> 00:32:51,276
Speaker 3: this really well.

635
00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:52,236
Speaker 2: I fell into.

636
00:32:52,036 --> 00:32:55,676
Speaker 3: An old pattern, not as bad as it was at university,

637
00:32:55,836 --> 00:32:59,556
Speaker 3: but not quite as compassionate as I would have liked

638
00:32:59,556 --> 00:32:59,836
Speaker 3: to have been.

639
00:32:59,876 --> 00:33:01,196
Speaker 2: And it wasn't that bad. I think.

640
00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:04,716
Speaker 3: I think I missed a shot and I said something like, oh,

641
00:33:04,756 --> 00:33:06,756
Speaker 3: you could have done better. You should have made that shot.

642
00:33:07,356 --> 00:33:10,596
Speaker 3: And my son said to me, Daddy, don't talk to

643
00:33:10,676 --> 00:33:15,636
Speaker 3: yourself like that. And it was so powerful because it

644
00:33:15,796 --> 00:33:20,236
Speaker 3: helped catch me. And that wasn't that bad. Honestly, competitor,

645
00:33:21,316 --> 00:33:23,636
Speaker 3: I like about it. That was good, but I thought,

646
00:33:23,716 --> 00:33:27,036
Speaker 3: this is awesome, Like I hope my wife and I

647
00:33:27,036 --> 00:33:28,356
Speaker 3: have brought him up in such a way that he

648
00:33:28,396 --> 00:33:31,916
Speaker 3: is compassionate to himself. And he's heard me say something.

649
00:33:32,356 --> 00:33:34,996
Speaker 3: He said, that's not nice, Daddy, don't talk to yourself

650
00:33:34,996 --> 00:33:37,036
Speaker 3: like that. And it was a really special moment for me,

651
00:33:37,356 --> 00:33:41,116
Speaker 3: a for me, but also for what I hope that

652
00:33:41,196 --> 00:33:42,876
Speaker 3: I'm teaching him.

653
00:33:43,156 --> 00:33:45,556
Speaker 1: Rungan is so open and honest about how he's had

654
00:33:45,596 --> 00:33:48,316
Speaker 1: to change many of his habits to improve his happiness.

655
00:33:48,556 --> 00:33:51,596
Speaker 1: But there's one strategy above all others that he credits

656
00:33:51,596 --> 00:33:54,356
Speaker 1: with making his daily life better. You'll share what that

657
00:33:54,556 --> 00:34:06,076
Speaker 1: is when the Happiness lab returns in a moment. I

658
00:34:06,116 --> 00:34:08,756
Speaker 1: often say that social interaction is the key to happiness,

659
00:34:09,196 --> 00:34:11,516
Speaker 1: but you and I both know that people can kind

660
00:34:11,516 --> 00:34:14,076
Speaker 1: of suck. They can make us angry or even make

661
00:34:14,156 --> 00:34:18,476
Speaker 1: us feel disappointed. Doctor Runken Chatterjee says the biggest breakthrough

662
00:34:18,476 --> 00:34:21,076
Speaker 1: in his happiness journey was to change how he dealt

663
00:34:21,076 --> 00:34:24,236
Speaker 1: with these tricky interactions. It can be done, he says,

664
00:34:24,356 --> 00:34:28,756
Speaker 1: by exercising our friction. So what exactly does that involve?

665
00:34:29,836 --> 00:34:33,076
Speaker 3: So we're social animals, right, It's very hard, I think,

666
00:34:33,076 --> 00:34:36,236
Speaker 3: for us to be happy if our interactions with the

667
00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:39,196
Speaker 3: world around us and the people around us are problematic,

668
00:34:40,516 --> 00:34:42,836
Speaker 3: and a lot of the time we feel that we

669
00:34:42,876 --> 00:34:46,476
Speaker 3: have to be a victim to the way the people

670
00:34:46,476 --> 00:34:50,836
Speaker 3: around us act if they're not nice, or they criticize me,

671
00:34:50,956 --> 00:34:53,356
Speaker 3: or they say certain things. While I have every right

672
00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:57,076
Speaker 3: to feel down and depressed and unhappy, and that's what

673
00:34:57,156 --> 00:35:00,956
Speaker 3: I used to think, but I've realized there is another option.

674
00:35:01,396 --> 00:35:06,676
Speaker 3: The way you interact with people, the way you interact

675
00:35:06,676 --> 00:35:11,196
Speaker 3: with the world. It comes down to you. You can

676
00:35:11,276 --> 00:35:16,236
Speaker 3: interpret various situations and a multitude of different ways, and

677
00:35:16,276 --> 00:35:19,036
Speaker 3: once you understand that, you empower yourself. So, just as

678
00:35:19,116 --> 00:35:22,316
Speaker 3: you can go to the physical gym and do bicep

679
00:35:22,396 --> 00:35:26,036
Speaker 3: curls or make your biceps bigger, will seeking out friction

680
00:35:26,236 --> 00:35:28,436
Speaker 3: for me is working out of the social gym. You're

681
00:35:28,636 --> 00:35:31,916
Speaker 3: using social friction with the world around you to make

682
00:35:31,996 --> 00:35:35,516
Speaker 3: your social muscle stronger. So how does this play out

683
00:35:35,516 --> 00:35:39,316
Speaker 3: for me? Well, any time something happens in my life

684
00:35:39,316 --> 00:35:43,476
Speaker 3: that I don't like or I'm getting frustrated by, I think, well,

685
00:35:44,156 --> 00:35:46,756
Speaker 3: what other story could I write here? Okay, instead of

686
00:35:46,756 --> 00:35:51,356
Speaker 3: being a victim to this situation, how can I empower

687
00:35:51,396 --> 00:35:55,276
Speaker 3: myself here? So let's say I'm driving somewhere and someone

688
00:35:55,316 --> 00:35:59,076
Speaker 3: cuts me up on the road. Instead of saying that

689
00:35:59,196 --> 00:36:02,556
Speaker 3: guy shouldn't be driving, they shouldn't have got their driving license,

690
00:36:02,596 --> 00:36:05,276
Speaker 3: they need their eyes checked, I could have been hurt.

691
00:36:05,316 --> 00:36:08,276
Speaker 3: Whatever story you want to create here, you're entitled to

692
00:36:08,276 --> 00:36:11,636
Speaker 3: make whatever story you want. But if you have that

693
00:36:11,676 --> 00:36:14,636
Speaker 3: sort of outlook, you're not going to be happy because

694
00:36:14,676 --> 00:36:17,996
Speaker 3: you're going to generate emotional stress. You're not going to

695
00:36:18,036 --> 00:36:21,036
Speaker 3: feel good, and that emotional stress will have to be

696
00:36:21,156 --> 00:36:25,876
Speaker 3: neutralized at some point, and often we neutralize it with sugar,

697
00:36:25,996 --> 00:36:29,196
Speaker 3: with more caffeine, with alcohol, with whatever, you know, our

698
00:36:29,236 --> 00:36:33,916
Speaker 3: habit of choices. But we generated that emotional stress by

699
00:36:33,916 --> 00:36:37,236
Speaker 3: the way we reacted. And once you want to sound

700
00:36:37,236 --> 00:36:40,636
Speaker 3: that you don't need to react like that, you open

701
00:36:40,716 --> 00:36:43,236
Speaker 3: up a new possibility of living. This is exactly what

702
00:36:43,316 --> 00:36:46,596
Speaker 3: I've done, and when I really got this Lorry. Honestly,

703
00:36:46,956 --> 00:36:51,316
Speaker 3: the conversation, out of all conversations I've had in my podcast,

704
00:36:51,316 --> 00:36:54,036
Speaker 3: which is four hundred plus now, the one conversation I'd

705
00:36:54,116 --> 00:36:56,596
Speaker 3: always come back to is the conversation I had with

706
00:36:56,916 --> 00:36:59,276
Speaker 3: Edith Eager, who when I spoke to was a ninety

707
00:36:59,276 --> 00:37:03,276
Speaker 3: three year old lady. When she was sixteen, she got

708
00:37:03,276 --> 00:37:06,556
Speaker 3: put on a train to Auschwitz concentration camp. Within two

709
00:37:06,636 --> 00:37:08,836
Speaker 3: hours of getting there, both of her parents were murdered.

710
00:37:10,076 --> 00:37:16,076
Speaker 3: Later that afternoon, she was asked to dance in front

711
00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:19,476
Speaker 3: of the senior prison guards. So she's in a concentration account.

712
00:37:19,476 --> 00:37:21,876
Speaker 3: The parents have just been murdered, she's sixteen years old.

713
00:37:22,196 --> 00:37:25,236
Speaker 3: She has to dance for the entertainment of the senior

714
00:37:25,316 --> 00:37:28,956
Speaker 3: prison guards. And there's many things I remember from that conversation.

715
00:37:29,036 --> 00:37:31,276
Speaker 3: But she said to me, when I had to dance

716
00:37:31,316 --> 00:37:33,516
Speaker 3: for them, I wasn't in Auschwitz.

717
00:37:34,436 --> 00:37:37,556
Speaker 2: In my mind. I was in Budapest opera house.

718
00:37:38,276 --> 00:37:41,716
Speaker 3: I had a beautiful blue dress on the orchestra was playing,

719
00:37:41,796 --> 00:37:46,476
Speaker 3: there was a full house. I remember Laurie thinking, you

720
00:37:46,516 --> 00:37:50,036
Speaker 3: were able to do that in Alschwitz. Then in the conversation,

721
00:37:50,116 --> 00:37:53,796
Speaker 3: she said, when I was in Auschwitz, I started to

722
00:37:53,796 --> 00:37:59,116
Speaker 3: see the prison guards as the prisoners. They weren't free

723
00:37:59,156 --> 00:38:01,956
Speaker 3: in their mind. In my mind I was free, and

724
00:38:01,996 --> 00:38:04,276
Speaker 3: there was lots more. But at the end, this is

725
00:38:04,276 --> 00:38:06,276
Speaker 3: the thing she said to me that I think about.

726
00:38:07,156 --> 00:38:10,716
Speaker 3: I would say on most days, said wrongin I have

727
00:38:10,796 --> 00:38:12,756
Speaker 3: lived in Auschwitz, and I can tell you that the

728
00:38:12,796 --> 00:38:17,116
Speaker 3: greatest prison you will ever live inside is the prison

729
00:38:17,476 --> 00:38:22,436
Speaker 3: you create inside your own mind. That phrase has changed

730
00:38:22,436 --> 00:38:25,716
Speaker 3: my life because I realize that we all create these

731
00:38:25,756 --> 00:38:28,876
Speaker 3: mental prisons every day by the way we interact. So

732
00:38:28,916 --> 00:38:30,916
Speaker 3: that person who cuts me up on the road, instead

733
00:38:30,916 --> 00:38:34,276
Speaker 3: of me being a victim to that situation, it's training

734
00:38:34,276 --> 00:38:35,876
Speaker 3: myself to go, oh, I wonder what's going on in

735
00:38:35,916 --> 00:38:39,516
Speaker 3: that person's life. Maybe that's a dad whose daughter was

736
00:38:39,596 --> 00:38:42,156
Speaker 3: up last night with earache and they're exhausted and they

737
00:38:42,156 --> 00:38:44,316
Speaker 3: think they're going to be late for work, and if

738
00:38:44,316 --> 00:38:46,476
Speaker 3: they're late for work, they're going to get fired. You know,

739
00:38:46,596 --> 00:38:50,116
Speaker 3: maybe they genuinely didn't see me. Whatever story you want.

740
00:38:50,476 --> 00:38:52,396
Speaker 3: And here's the thing, Laurie that I've realized, and you

741
00:38:52,476 --> 00:38:54,756
Speaker 3: know you're a psychologist. I'm interesting in your perspective on this.

742
00:38:55,596 --> 00:38:59,996
Speaker 3: All situations I've realized have multiple realities. And I often

743
00:39:00,036 --> 00:39:01,876
Speaker 3: talk to people about this through the lens of a

744
00:39:01,956 --> 00:39:04,956
Speaker 3: couple's relationship. I say to people, let's say you're a

745
00:39:04,996 --> 00:39:07,996
Speaker 3: husband and wife and you have a disagreement. Don't know

746
00:39:07,996 --> 00:39:10,276
Speaker 3: if you ever know what that feels like, you know

747
00:39:10,396 --> 00:39:13,636
Speaker 3: for people who experienced that, right, I say, Okay, well,

748
00:39:13,636 --> 00:39:18,716
Speaker 3: you've had a disagreement stroke argument. What actually happens, Well,

749
00:39:18,716 --> 00:39:21,116
Speaker 3: it kind of depends who you ask. If you ask

750
00:39:21,196 --> 00:39:24,796
Speaker 3: the husband, he may give you a certain narrative and

751
00:39:24,916 --> 00:39:28,636
Speaker 3: story about the situation that may be completely different to

752
00:39:28,716 --> 00:39:31,316
Speaker 3: what his wife says, and they can both be right

753
00:39:31,396 --> 00:39:34,036
Speaker 3: for them. There was this really great study on some

754
00:39:34,076 --> 00:39:37,516
Speaker 3: psychologists where they found football fans and after the match,

755
00:39:37,596 --> 00:39:41,316
Speaker 3: they showed them the same incident. Right, so they're saying,

756
00:39:41,316 --> 00:39:44,796
Speaker 3: calmly watching the same incident, depending on which team you

757
00:39:44,916 --> 00:39:49,236
Speaker 3: supported would determine what you think happened in that incident.

758
00:39:50,036 --> 00:39:53,476
Speaker 3: And so the reason for me sharing that is you

759
00:39:53,556 --> 00:39:57,116
Speaker 3: realize that every situation has multiple stories that you can

760
00:39:57,236 --> 00:39:59,596
Speaker 3: create about it. Or what I say in the book

761
00:39:59,676 --> 00:40:03,116
Speaker 3: is create the story that empowers you, not the story

762
00:40:03,156 --> 00:40:06,276
Speaker 3: that makes you a victim. So this can be a

763
00:40:06,436 --> 00:40:08,596
Speaker 3: very simple practice that people do in the evening or

764
00:40:08,596 --> 00:40:12,716
Speaker 3: once a week. You reflect, where did I get really

765
00:40:12,716 --> 00:40:18,436
Speaker 3: frustrated by someone and make them like a really bad person.

766
00:40:18,956 --> 00:40:20,036
Speaker 2: And one of the.

767
00:40:19,956 --> 00:40:22,356
Speaker 3: Tools I recommend is just saying what stories you need

768
00:40:22,396 --> 00:40:25,116
Speaker 3: to create to make that person a hero. And here's

769
00:40:25,156 --> 00:40:27,796
Speaker 3: the truth of the situation the way I see it, Lorrie,

770
00:40:28,596 --> 00:40:32,756
Speaker 3: the truth of what actually happens for your happiness, it

771
00:40:32,796 --> 00:40:36,716
Speaker 3: doesn't really matter for your happiness, it doesn't matter. And

772
00:40:36,756 --> 00:40:38,556
Speaker 3: when you can let go of the need to be

773
00:40:38,756 --> 00:40:41,876
Speaker 3: right and the need to know that person does have

774
00:40:41,916 --> 00:40:43,756
Speaker 3: a driving license and they should have known that I

775
00:40:43,836 --> 00:40:46,916
Speaker 3: was here, you never know. And I've been doing this

776
00:40:46,956 --> 00:40:50,276
Speaker 3: for over five years now. I've been slowly using every

777
00:40:50,316 --> 00:40:52,716
Speaker 3: bit of social friction in my life. In the evening,

778
00:40:52,756 --> 00:40:54,556
Speaker 3: I'd reflect and go okay, wrong, And what's a different

779
00:40:54,596 --> 00:40:57,716
Speaker 3: story that you can right here and yes. And at

780
00:40:57,716 --> 00:40:59,876
Speaker 3: first it was an effort, like when you first learn

781
00:40:59,956 --> 00:41:02,876
Speaker 3: to drive a car, if you're learning to drive a

782
00:41:02,916 --> 00:41:05,276
Speaker 3: manual or what you guys call the stick I think

783
00:41:05,316 --> 00:41:08,876
Speaker 3: stick share, yes, stake shift yet right, it's conscious you're thinking,

784
00:41:08,916 --> 00:41:11,716
Speaker 3: this is the clutch, this is the accelerator. But what

785
00:41:11,876 --> 00:41:16,796
Speaker 3: over time it's automatic. So now, genuinely speaking, most of

786
00:41:16,836 --> 00:41:18,916
Speaker 3: the time, unless I'm on the really high levels of

787
00:41:18,956 --> 00:41:24,156
Speaker 3: stress and or I'm sleep deprived, I will naturally write

788
00:41:24,156 --> 00:41:28,716
Speaker 3: a happiness story. And it means that you feel good

789
00:41:29,036 --> 00:41:31,956
Speaker 3: because you lead with compassion and curiosity. What's going on

790
00:41:31,956 --> 00:41:33,716
Speaker 3: in that person's life? Does that all make sense?

791
00:41:33,796 --> 00:41:34,316
Speaker 2: No? Totally.

792
00:41:34,356 --> 00:41:36,076
Speaker 1: And I think when you do that, you do a

793
00:41:36,076 --> 00:41:38,836
Speaker 1: couple of things. First, you end up often changing the

794
00:41:38,876 --> 00:41:41,836
Speaker 1: other person's behavior. I imagine somebody cuts you off and

795
00:41:41,876 --> 00:41:43,596
Speaker 1: you get to interact with them after. If you scream

796
00:41:43,596 --> 00:41:45,196
Speaker 1: at them and stuff, you are going to turn them

797
00:41:45,196 --> 00:41:47,956
Speaker 1: into a jerk. But if you say, are you okay?

798
00:41:48,036 --> 00:41:49,916
Speaker 1: Like what happened? Like, if you just show it, like

799
00:41:49,956 --> 00:41:53,396
Speaker 1: a tiny iota of compassion, often that will change someone's behavior.

800
00:41:53,396 --> 00:41:55,116
Speaker 1: They will become the hero. They'll kind of want to

801
00:41:55,236 --> 00:41:58,076
Speaker 1: behave in the way that you want. But another reason

802
00:41:58,116 --> 00:42:00,756
Speaker 1: I just love this technique so much is that when

803
00:42:00,796 --> 00:42:03,676
Speaker 1: you realize not just that these kind of construles are

804
00:42:03,716 --> 00:42:05,676
Speaker 1: these ways of thinking about people, these sort of hero

805
00:42:05,836 --> 00:42:08,676
Speaker 1: stories matter for your happiness, but when you also realize

806
00:42:08,716 --> 00:42:10,356
Speaker 1: that you can get better at it, that this is

807
00:42:10,396 --> 00:42:13,236
Speaker 1: a social gym and you can train, you can actually,

808
00:42:13,276 --> 00:42:15,796
Speaker 1: in a funny way, become excited about these moments of

809
00:42:15,836 --> 00:42:18,516
Speaker 1: social free one hundred percent where you're like, oh, somebody

810
00:42:18,516 --> 00:42:20,436
Speaker 1: cut me off. This is a wonderful These are my

811
00:42:20,516 --> 00:42:22,476
Speaker 1: reps today, Like I'm going to get extra reps. This

812
00:42:22,516 --> 00:42:23,916
Speaker 1: is like leg day for social And.

813
00:42:23,996 --> 00:42:25,596
Speaker 3: What does this do if we think about the core

814
00:42:25,676 --> 00:42:29,636
Speaker 3: happiness stool that I mentioned right, the starts, alignment, contentment,

815
00:42:29,716 --> 00:42:32,396
Speaker 3: of control. Well, this does several things, but particularly this

816
00:42:32,476 --> 00:42:36,556
Speaker 3: speaks to the control elements. If you feel that the

817
00:42:36,596 --> 00:42:40,036
Speaker 3: social world is out of control, that people are acting

818
00:42:40,076 --> 00:42:41,716
Speaker 3: in these sort of ways and you are basically just

819
00:42:41,756 --> 00:42:45,076
Speaker 3: like a puppet on a string, that if someone acts badly,

820
00:42:45,556 --> 00:42:47,556
Speaker 3: you're going to have a bad day. Just think about

821
00:42:47,556 --> 00:42:50,036
Speaker 3: that for a minute. You're putting your happiness in the

822
00:42:50,156 --> 00:42:52,996
Speaker 3: hands of other people. Now I get it. Of course,

823
00:42:53,036 --> 00:42:56,276
Speaker 3: we want people to interact nicely with us, but you

824
00:42:56,396 --> 00:43:00,236
Speaker 3: can't rely on that if you want to be happy.

825
00:43:00,836 --> 00:43:04,116
Speaker 3: And you know another phrase which might help people here

826
00:43:04,356 --> 00:43:06,716
Speaker 3: if they're struggling to write a hero story for the

827
00:43:06,716 --> 00:43:09,916
Speaker 3: other person. This phrase literally is change my life. I

828
00:43:09,956 --> 00:43:13,636
Speaker 3: think it's very powerful. If I was that other person,

829
00:43:14,956 --> 00:43:17,956
Speaker 3: I'd be acting in exactly the same way as them.

830
00:43:18,316 --> 00:43:20,596
Speaker 3: And when you really really get that phrase, what I'm

831
00:43:20,636 --> 00:43:24,556
Speaker 3: saying is if I was that other person and I

832
00:43:24,636 --> 00:43:28,116
Speaker 3: had their childhoods and the bullying they experience, and the

833
00:43:28,196 --> 00:43:32,116
Speaker 3: parents they had, and the first boss at sixteen who

834
00:43:32,156 --> 00:43:34,316
Speaker 3: was toxic and took advantage to be whatever it might be,

835
00:43:34,356 --> 00:43:36,796
Speaker 3: if I had their life, I would see the world

836
00:43:36,836 --> 00:43:38,836
Speaker 3: the way that they see it, and I would be

837
00:43:38,956 --> 00:43:40,996
Speaker 3: acting in the way that they're currently acting.

838
00:43:41,356 --> 00:43:42,876
Speaker 2: Now. I choose to.

839
00:43:43,436 --> 00:43:45,876
Speaker 3: Go out in the world every day believing that everyone

840
00:43:45,916 --> 00:43:47,716
Speaker 3: is doing the best that they can, and if I

841
00:43:47,716 --> 00:43:49,876
Speaker 3: were them, I'd be acting in exactly the same way.

842
00:43:50,916 --> 00:43:54,596
Speaker 3: For me, it's been a transformative practice because it means

843
00:43:55,116 --> 00:43:58,316
Speaker 3: that you know what you're curious, You understand. You're thinking,

844
00:43:58,396 --> 00:44:00,756
Speaker 3: why does that person think differently to me? Why is

845
00:44:00,756 --> 00:44:04,476
Speaker 3: that person being rude in that situation? What has gone

846
00:44:04,516 --> 00:44:06,556
Speaker 3: on in their life. It doesn't mean you have to

847
00:44:06,636 --> 00:44:09,516
Speaker 3: accept poor behavior. Just to be really clear, but by

848
00:44:09,556 --> 00:44:13,756
Speaker 3: not getting emotionally triggered, you feel better. You feel calmer

849
00:44:13,876 --> 00:44:17,076
Speaker 3: and in control. And let's say it's your boss who

850
00:44:17,076 --> 00:44:19,116
Speaker 3: send you a email that you don't like and you

851
00:44:19,116 --> 00:44:23,556
Speaker 3: think is inappropriate. If you get emotionally triggered, you may

852
00:44:23,596 --> 00:44:27,316
Speaker 3: fire one back that you regret, You may have an

853
00:44:27,436 --> 00:44:31,036
Speaker 3: unproductive interaction with your boss because you're so emotionally triggered

854
00:44:31,036 --> 00:44:34,316
Speaker 3: by it. But if you receive that email and you think, hmm,

855
00:44:34,436 --> 00:44:36,476
Speaker 3: that's out of character for my boss, what's going on

856
00:44:36,516 --> 00:44:39,156
Speaker 3: in his or her life? Oh, you know, maybe he's

857
00:44:39,196 --> 00:44:42,996
Speaker 3: having marital problems, maybe he's worried about his or her job,

858
00:44:43,196 --> 00:44:46,716
Speaker 3: whatever it might be, you just calm everything down and

859
00:44:46,756 --> 00:44:49,676
Speaker 3: then if you do have the torture boss, you're better

860
00:44:49,796 --> 00:44:52,796
Speaker 3: able to make changes because you've not been emotionally triggered.

861
00:44:52,876 --> 00:44:56,636
Speaker 3: So that chapter, honestly is one of my favorite chapters

862
00:44:56,676 --> 00:44:58,676
Speaker 3: in the book because I would say it's had the

863
00:44:58,756 --> 00:45:01,836
Speaker 3: most impact on me. I realize how much I picked

864
00:45:01,916 --> 00:45:05,236
Speaker 3: up from my parents, how much I thought that my

865
00:45:05,396 --> 00:45:08,036
Speaker 3: feelings were because of the people around me, and I

866
00:45:08,116 --> 00:45:11,636
Speaker 3: didn't quite really Actually, I've got a lot more agency

867
00:45:11,676 --> 00:45:13,996
Speaker 3: here than I previously thought, and.

868
00:45:13,956 --> 00:45:15,836
Speaker 1: So I can see this just in interacting with you.

869
00:45:15,916 --> 00:45:18,796
Speaker 1: But I'm going to ask the question anyway. Has kind

870
00:45:18,836 --> 00:45:21,756
Speaker 1: of recognizing the agency you have to change your happiness

871
00:45:22,116 --> 00:45:24,396
Speaker 1: really changed your overall sense of joy and well being.

872
00:45:24,716 --> 00:45:26,156
Speaker 1: It seems like it just interacting with you.

873
00:45:26,276 --> 00:45:29,076
Speaker 3: Yeah, look on honestly, and again, I would have been

874
00:45:29,076 --> 00:45:31,356
Speaker 3: too insecure to say this in the past because of

875
00:45:31,396 --> 00:45:34,316
Speaker 3: how it might make people feel. But I also understand

876
00:45:34,356 --> 00:45:38,556
Speaker 3: that how people feel is up to them. It's not

877
00:45:38,716 --> 00:45:40,756
Speaker 3: that much to do with me. So I'm going to

878
00:45:40,756 --> 00:45:45,676
Speaker 3: share something with you that if people feel bad about it,

879
00:45:45,676 --> 00:45:47,276
Speaker 3: it says I think more about them.

880
00:45:47,476 --> 00:45:48,996
Speaker 2: And I say that with an open heart. Lorry.

881
00:45:49,036 --> 00:45:53,236
Speaker 3: I'm not blaming or criticizing anyone. I'm forty six years old.

882
00:45:53,916 --> 00:45:58,476
Speaker 3: I've never felt happier and more content with who I

883
00:45:58,516 --> 00:46:01,556
Speaker 3: am than I do today, and it's been like this

884
00:46:01,596 --> 00:46:03,996
Speaker 3: for a couple of years now. I think writing this

885
00:46:04,036 --> 00:46:06,276
Speaker 3: book on happiness has really helped me. You know, what

886
00:46:06,276 --> 00:46:07,996
Speaker 3: do authors do. We often write the books that we

887
00:46:08,036 --> 00:46:08,876
Speaker 3: need for ourselves.

888
00:46:09,236 --> 00:46:09,356
Speaker 2: Right.

889
00:46:09,436 --> 00:46:12,396
Speaker 3: That was absolutely the case with me. I was on

890
00:46:12,436 --> 00:46:15,076
Speaker 3: that journey and writing it. Yes, I know it's helped

891
00:46:15,396 --> 00:46:19,236
Speaker 3: a lot of people, but it's also helped me. And

892
00:46:19,356 --> 00:46:21,716
Speaker 3: what I'm passionate about, what I've always been passionate about,

893
00:46:21,836 --> 00:46:26,516
Speaker 3: is we make health, we make happiness so complicated we

894
00:46:26,636 --> 00:46:29,676
Speaker 3: really don't need to. Like I do, think it's our

895
00:46:29,716 --> 00:46:31,796
Speaker 3: birthright to be happy. I think if you look at

896
00:46:31,836 --> 00:46:35,356
Speaker 3: a young child, a two or three year olds, they're

897
00:46:35,356 --> 00:46:38,676
Speaker 3: in the moments they're playing with their toys or their siblings.

898
00:46:39,676 --> 00:46:42,636
Speaker 2: That happiness, that presence. I think it is something.

899
00:46:42,356 --> 00:46:46,716
Speaker 3: That all of us can get, but we need to

900
00:46:46,756 --> 00:46:49,556
Speaker 3: know what to work on. That's why I created this

901
00:46:50,036 --> 00:46:52,116
Speaker 3: model of the three legged store, because I think it's

902
00:46:52,516 --> 00:46:54,316
Speaker 3: rather than thinking what can I do to be happy?

903
00:46:54,916 --> 00:46:56,996
Speaker 3: I think, well, what we need to do is what

904
00:46:57,116 --> 00:46:59,756
Speaker 3: can I do to improve my alignment? What can I

905
00:46:59,796 --> 00:47:01,996
Speaker 3: do to improve my contentment? What can I do that

906
00:47:01,996 --> 00:47:03,996
Speaker 3: gives me a sense of control? And if I can

907
00:47:04,036 --> 00:47:08,596
Speaker 3: do those things regularly, I'm going to be happier more often.

908
00:47:09,196 --> 00:47:11,596
Speaker 1: Cool to hear how much it's changed your life, But

909
00:47:11,996 --> 00:47:15,156
Speaker 1: I'm curious, given your status as a doctor in the

910
00:47:15,236 --> 00:47:17,716
Speaker 1: UK and so on, like, do you think that more

911
00:47:17,756 --> 00:47:19,996
Speaker 1: books like this are conld change the medical field? That

912
00:47:20,116 --> 00:47:21,956
Speaker 1: is not just you, but really like the way we

913
00:47:21,996 --> 00:47:25,116
Speaker 1: think about physical health is going to incorporate happiness even more.

914
00:47:25,676 --> 00:47:29,956
Speaker 3: I'm an optimist, okay, so I believe it will. And yes,

915
00:47:29,996 --> 00:47:32,956
Speaker 3: I get contacted a lot by the public, but I've

916
00:47:32,956 --> 00:47:39,836
Speaker 3: had hundreds, if not thousands of messages from medical doctors saying, wow,

917
00:47:39,916 --> 00:47:42,756
Speaker 3: I had no idea about this stuff. Firstly, it's helping

918
00:47:42,796 --> 00:47:45,996
Speaker 3: me with my own health and happiness, and it's also

919
00:47:46,036 --> 00:47:50,996
Speaker 3: given me a tool kit to start introducing these conversations

920
00:47:50,996 --> 00:47:55,476
Speaker 3: with my patients when appropriate. So I am optimistic. That's

921
00:47:55,556 --> 00:47:58,076
Speaker 3: one of the reasons for writing the book. And there

922
00:47:58,156 --> 00:48:00,756
Speaker 3: is a course that I teach to doctors called Prescribing

923
00:48:00,756 --> 00:48:03,996
Speaker 3: Life Style Medicine, and we trained several thousand healthcare professionals now,

924
00:48:04,716 --> 00:48:08,156
Speaker 3: and some of these concepts I'm bringing into the course

925
00:48:08,236 --> 00:48:12,756
Speaker 3: because I think it's important, yes for patients, but also.

926
00:48:12,596 --> 00:48:14,836
Speaker 2: For the doctors themselves. Right.

927
00:48:14,876 --> 00:48:17,516
Speaker 3: I shared a very person sorry about my dad before,

928
00:48:17,556 --> 00:48:21,276
Speaker 3: and that may seem extreme, you know, only sleeping three

929
00:48:21,396 --> 00:48:24,116
Speaker 3: nights a week for thirty years, and yes, it is

930
00:48:24,196 --> 00:48:27,436
Speaker 3: quite an extreme situation. But there is a version of

931
00:48:27,636 --> 00:48:32,236
Speaker 3: that that I have seen regularly with so many patients,

932
00:48:32,636 --> 00:48:36,396
Speaker 3: and that version is I'm working too hard I'm doing

933
00:48:36,476 --> 00:48:40,396
Speaker 3: too much. I'm chasing this fictional idea of success. I

934
00:48:40,636 --> 00:48:45,036
Speaker 3: already have enough. I've already got enough to feed my family.

935
00:48:45,076 --> 00:48:47,756
Speaker 3: But I'm so used to pushing for the next thing

936
00:48:47,796 --> 00:48:51,476
Speaker 3: that I keep going and I'm making myself sick. So

937
00:48:51,556 --> 00:48:54,316
Speaker 3: that right, your own happy ending exercise. I think it's

938
00:48:54,356 --> 00:48:56,756
Speaker 3: a damn good one for doctors to do on themselves,

939
00:48:57,396 --> 00:48:59,956
Speaker 3: and I have used it with patients also because it

940
00:49:00,036 --> 00:49:04,116
Speaker 3: helps them realize, oh, maybe I don't need to go

941
00:49:04,196 --> 00:49:06,516
Speaker 3: for that promotion. Maybe I'm all right where I am.

942
00:49:06,916 --> 00:49:06,996
Speaker 1: You know.

943
00:49:07,076 --> 00:49:09,636
Speaker 3: I want to have this teacher who was a patient

944
00:49:09,636 --> 00:49:14,316
Speaker 3: of mine, and I remember that he did this exercise

945
00:49:14,356 --> 00:49:16,876
Speaker 3: and then he came in a few weeks later to say, Doc,

946
00:49:17,076 --> 00:49:20,676
Speaker 3: I've got it. I'm not going for the promotion. I said, okay, great,

947
00:49:20,716 --> 00:49:23,396
Speaker 3: he said yeah. I realized, like I quite like my

948
00:49:23,516 --> 00:49:27,196
Speaker 3: current position, Like I earn enough, I can pay the mortgage,

949
00:49:27,476 --> 00:49:29,796
Speaker 3: I get to spend time with my kids every weekend.

950
00:49:30,036 --> 00:49:33,076
Speaker 3: If I take the promotion, yes, I'll get paid a

951
00:49:33,076 --> 00:49:36,316
Speaker 3: little bit more, but actually I'll have to say extra

952
00:49:36,356 --> 00:49:38,156
Speaker 3: evenings in the week at school and I'll be in

953
00:49:38,196 --> 00:49:41,996
Speaker 3: at weekends. And I thought, awesome, Wow, I wish I'd

954
00:49:41,996 --> 00:49:44,356
Speaker 3: been able to make those decisions at that age. So,

955
00:49:45,396 --> 00:49:47,956
Speaker 3: you know, I think it can help patients, But in

956
00:49:48,076 --> 00:49:53,516
Speaker 3: terms of the medical profession, I think that it is inevitable.

957
00:49:53,716 --> 00:49:59,396
Speaker 3: At some point doctors will have to start understanding happiness

958
00:49:59,396 --> 00:50:02,676
Speaker 3: and the skill of happiness better for themselves and for

959
00:50:02,716 --> 00:50:05,396
Speaker 3: their patients because what we're doing is currently not working.

960
00:50:05,716 --> 00:50:07,396
Speaker 2: Doctors are stressed out.

961
00:50:07,556 --> 00:50:10,156
Speaker 3: There's record rates to burnout, there's record rates of people

962
00:50:10,196 --> 00:50:12,796
Speaker 3: leaving the profession. There was a study in the UK

963
00:50:12,956 --> 00:50:18,076
Speaker 3: recently that says eighty eight percent of the UK workforce

964
00:50:18,116 --> 00:50:22,236
Speaker 3: has experienced a form of burnout in the past two years.

965
00:50:22,596 --> 00:50:22,756
Speaker 2: Now.

966
00:50:22,796 --> 00:50:25,156
Speaker 3: I don't know whether that's stat is truly reflexive of

967
00:50:25,276 --> 00:50:28,516
Speaker 3: every workplace, but even if it isn't.

968
00:50:28,316 --> 00:50:30,276
Speaker 2: It's still pretty it's still pretty bad.

969
00:50:30,596 --> 00:50:33,876
Speaker 3: What does it say about as a society. So you know,

970
00:50:33,876 --> 00:50:37,036
Speaker 3: when answer to your question, yes, I do see there's

971
00:50:37,076 --> 00:50:41,036
Speaker 3: a movement now with more doctors being interested. You know,

972
00:50:41,076 --> 00:50:44,036
Speaker 3: We've just been on stage at the Happiness Summits and

973
00:50:44,076 --> 00:50:45,876
Speaker 3: there's been several doctors who've come up to me and

974
00:50:46,116 --> 00:50:49,116
Speaker 3: spoken and saying, I'm using your book with my patients already,

975
00:50:49,396 --> 00:50:52,796
Speaker 3: and I have been. It's making a real difference. So yes,

976
00:50:52,836 --> 00:50:55,396
Speaker 3: I'm an optimist, but I do think the medical profession

977
00:50:55,476 --> 00:50:57,916
Speaker 3: is starting to change. I wish it would change a

978
00:50:57,956 --> 00:51:00,396
Speaker 3: bit sooner, a bit quicker, but I think it's going

979
00:51:00,436 --> 00:51:00,796
Speaker 3: to happen.

980
00:51:01,036 --> 00:51:03,516
Speaker 1: Ringan, thank you so much for coming on the show,

981
00:51:03,556 --> 00:51:05,156
Speaker 1: and thank you so much for the great work that

982
00:51:05,196 --> 00:51:05,636
Speaker 1: you're doing.

983
00:51:05,796 --> 00:51:06,236
Speaker 2: Well, Laurie.

984
00:51:06,236 --> 00:51:09,076
Speaker 3: It's been an honor to come on your wonderful podcast,

985
00:51:09,396 --> 00:51:13,516
Speaker 3: and you literally are a trailblazer in the world of happiness,

986
00:51:13,516 --> 00:51:15,356
Speaker 3: and you've inspired a lot of my work over the year.

987
00:51:15,436 --> 00:51:16,876
Speaker 2: So you're with these an honest to meet you in

988
00:51:16,916 --> 00:51:17,876
Speaker 2: person to come on the show.

989
00:51:18,116 --> 00:51:24,876
Speaker 1: Thanks again, Yeah, yeah, our great audience standing ovation. Doctor

990
00:51:24,956 --> 00:51:27,836
Speaker 1: Rungin Chatterjee was just one of the inspiring people I

991
00:51:27,916 --> 00:51:30,836
Speaker 1: met at the World Happiness Summit. I also spent a

992
00:51:30,836 --> 00:51:34,156
Speaker 1: bunch of time with the events founder, Karen Guggenheim, and

993
00:51:34,236 --> 00:51:36,916
Speaker 1: I got to hear how a painful bereavement kick started

994
00:51:36,916 --> 00:51:38,916
Speaker 1: her mission to improve global happiness.

995
00:51:39,516 --> 00:51:43,756
Speaker 4: My husband caught the flu, which developed into a pneumonia,

996
00:51:44,476 --> 00:51:47,836
Speaker 4: and within ten days he was gone, Okay, well I'm done.

997
00:51:47,876 --> 00:51:50,556
Speaker 4: And I don't think that I was suicidal at all

998
00:51:50,596 --> 00:51:52,876
Speaker 4: in that regard, but I think we can be a

999
00:51:52,876 --> 00:51:54,916
Speaker 4: live dead, just being numb to life.

1000
00:51:55,876 --> 00:51:58,276
Speaker 1: That's all to come next time on a happiness lab

1001
00:51:58,356 --> 00:51:59,996
Speaker 1: with me, Doctor Laurie Santos,