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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's Bill Courtney with an army of normal folks.

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Speaker 1: And we continue now with part two of our conversation

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Speaker 1: with mac McKinney, right after these brief messages from our

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Speaker 1: generals sponsors. So a rock is where you got blowed up?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we went in. So I was doing interrogations and

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Speaker 2: I begged, I begged to go on a mission, go

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Speaker 2: outside the wire. Please let me go.

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Speaker 1: Oh, because you're stuck behind doing interrogations. If you want

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Speaker 1: to be out in the field, I want to be

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Speaker 1: on the field.

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Speaker 2: It's like, you know, this is great, man, but this

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Speaker 2: is like, this is like punching a heavy bag. It's

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Speaker 2: not gonna hit your bag, right, and it gets boring. Uh,

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Speaker 2: And they finally let me go. They gave me a team.

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Speaker 2: We worked up. We had intel there was going to

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Speaker 2: be a an al Qaida lieutenant at such and such building.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna hood over the head bring them in, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so it's a big operation.

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Speaker 1: Just bring them in mean alive or dead? Or did

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Speaker 1: you want them alive? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: You want them alive?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. So we got to the building. I mean,

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Speaker 2: and this is a bigger this is this isn't just

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Speaker 2: like five guys. This is like, you know, you have

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Speaker 2: a security team that actually cordon's off like a two

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Speaker 2: block radius. Then you have an extraction team which is

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Speaker 2: also your delivery team, but your distraction team which is

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Speaker 2: waiting on the street so you can you know, high

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Speaker 2: tail it out, and then the assault team, which was

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Speaker 2: us when we went into the building. We went into

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Speaker 2: the building. Man, there was nobody there. They had a

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Speaker 2: bunch of stuff that was laught. All we got we

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Speaker 2: well it doesn't at her because we never brought it back,

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Speaker 2: but there was a there was a lot of intel there.

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Speaker 2: I went back up on the second floor as my

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Speaker 2: team was gathering all the information on the front or

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Speaker 2: on the first floor, and because we had this big

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Speaker 2: hole blown that was blown through the wall that looked

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Speaker 2: out onto the street. And it's so easy for me

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Speaker 2: to talk about this because I have no memory of

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Speaker 2: what happened after this To this day, I don't remember.

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Speaker 2: I like to joke about it because of that, because

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Speaker 2: I don't have any memory of it.

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Speaker 1: No physical pain, No physical pain, well that moment's pain.

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Speaker 2: No, No, it was like I don't even I can't

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Speaker 2: even recall hearing a boom. I just remember looking out

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Speaker 2: onto the street, and being up higher, I can look

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Speaker 2: around and make sure everything. You know, we're not going

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Speaker 2: to walk out into something, right, because we're safe in

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Speaker 2: this building. We leave, we're not safe anymore. So I

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Speaker 2: want to make sure that me and my team are

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Speaker 2: good to go. That's the last thing I remember. I

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Speaker 2: woke up several days later with a chaplain sitting next

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Speaker 2: to my bed. I come to and I was like,

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Speaker 2: what the hell you know I'm looking at I know

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Speaker 2: him in a hospital, right, And then I got kind

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Speaker 2: of mad because I'm like, I didn't die right by

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Speaker 2: my whole destiny about coming back in the flag dray Coffin.

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Speaker 1: I just I'm like, oh crap, man, suping legs are wondering.

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Speaker 2: I did that once before in Desert's form. I got

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Speaker 2: a piece of strapping on my head up here, but

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Speaker 2: uh yeah, I did that once before.

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Speaker 1: But but like am I am? I all intact?

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Speaker 2: That didn't hit me at first. I'm I'm just kind

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Speaker 2: of like, oh man, And and I hear a noise

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Speaker 2: because the chaplain jumped up, and I look over and

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Speaker 2: I you know, I see him, and I see his uniform.

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Speaker 2: He's got crossed right here on his chest and it's

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Speaker 2: so great. That's wonderful. Uh And and he looks at me,

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Speaker 2: says certain, and he says, I got to tell you something.

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Speaker 2: You are a one lucky individual. He says, you died.

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Speaker 2: I said what they said. Yeah, when they brought you in,

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Speaker 2: they were treating you and you flatlined and the doctor

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Speaker 2: brought you back. It's like I'm trying to think, and

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Speaker 2: I'm like, nope, I got no stories of bright lights

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Speaker 2: or anything. So I was, as far as I know,

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Speaker 2: I was just asleep. And he says, he says, you

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Speaker 2: have somebody watching over you.

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Speaker 1: Definitely do.

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Speaker 2: And I says, sir, I gotta tell you no disrespect

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Speaker 2: to your position in life. But he don't want me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like highlander up in here. I can't die. I've tried,

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Speaker 2: and that the Chaplain's just looking at me like, oh

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Speaker 2: my gosh.

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Speaker 1: Man.

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Speaker 2: And then people started coming in telling me that they're

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm being processed for medical retirement. I already

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Speaker 2: had over twenty years.

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Speaker 1: What happened to you? What was wrong with your body?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Just I mean just scarring. Uh. I got some

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Speaker 2: shrapnel scars on my on my left half and uh,

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Speaker 2: my back just was obliterated. My shoulder is this dislocated?

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Speaker 2: It never really healed? Right?

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Speaker 1: So what happened? Was there a bomb in there?

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, no, I mean.

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Speaker 2: There was an id underneath the building. Uh, and the

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Speaker 2: dead and so it's almost like we were set up

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Speaker 2: and it.

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Speaker 1: Was someone else step on it. Oh no, they remotely

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Speaker 1: activated it from a phone. Once you got to a phone.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, probably a phone.

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Speaker 1: So they were watching you somewhere. Yeah yeah, did you

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Speaker 1: fly off the second floor.

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Speaker 2: Well, so this this youngster came in. He came in

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Speaker 2: to see a friend in the hospital there. It was

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Speaker 2: like a mass hospital, right, He come in to see

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Speaker 2: a friend. He saw me, and he's like, Sorge. He said,

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Speaker 2: my god, man, he says, are you okay? I says,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. Man, they're kicking me out, and he says, brother.

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Speaker 2: He says, you don't even know. He says, man, the

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Speaker 2: only thing missing from you was a cape because you

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Speaker 2: flew straight across the street. That's what he told me.

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Speaker 2: Like I said, I like to make a joke of

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Speaker 2: it because it's I have no memory of it, and

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Speaker 2: I'm very thankful. I'm very thankful I don't because I

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Speaker 2: probably have nervous breakdown, but I have no memory of it,

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Speaker 2: but it messed me up for a while. And they

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Speaker 2: come in and they start telling me about the process

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Speaker 2: seeing me for medical retirement, and I was like, we're

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Speaker 2: not doing this. I'm going back to Rack.

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Speaker 1: And he looked at me and they were.

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Speaker 2: Like it was like they were military, but they were

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Speaker 2: like the hospital social workers, right, And it says, hard

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Speaker 2: and why do you want to go back to Rack?

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Speaker 2: I looked dead in the eyes. So I'm not done

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Speaker 2: killing Muslims yet. If I wasn't getting out before I

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Speaker 2: said that, I was definitely getting out when I after

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Speaker 2: I said that, because they just like looked at me

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Speaker 2: and they're like oh, and then he walked out. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Next thing you know, I got a guy sitting across

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Speaker 2: from me with his legs cross going. So how does

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Speaker 2: that make you feel?

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Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Sitting Yeah. Yeah. So now

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Speaker 1: you're out and your home and you're back in Monthly, which.

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Speaker 2: Was never really my home originally.

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Speaker 1: Anyway, Okay, but you're in months yeah, Well, I because

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Speaker 1: it was my home record, it was a mailing address

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Speaker 1: for a lot of years.

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Speaker 2: I had joined the Army from there when I was

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Speaker 2: trying to work. You know, I had no job skills.

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Speaker 1: President, there's really not much of a job in the

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Speaker 1: United States for killing Muslims. Well, we the teams, we

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Speaker 1: would always around like what you were good at? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we tell people, or we used to talk to

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Speaker 2: my self as a man, I said, I don't know

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Speaker 2: what I'm gonna do when we get out. I said,

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Speaker 2: there's only three things I could really do anything. I'd

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Speaker 2: be a hit man for the mob, a pimp, or

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Speaker 2: a drug dealer. I don't really have any other skills.

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Speaker 2: And I was like, that's so true, because I had

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Speaker 2: no education. I had a GED. I got a ged

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Speaker 2: was Marie or in the Marine Corps. They made me

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Speaker 2: because I could have cared less. And I have no

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Speaker 2: job skills. So what am I doing. I'm twenty five

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Speaker 2: years old working as a labor work for a commercial

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Speaker 2: roofing company. Hard work, right as a labor And I

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Speaker 2: was on that roof and I'm like shoveling stuff over

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Speaker 2: the side into the big, big trash bend they have,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like listening to the foreman talk down to me,

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Speaker 2: and I'm like, dude, you don't even know me. Because

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Speaker 2: like two years before that. I mean, I was a

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Speaker 2: bodyguard for President Bush when he came to small Year.

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Speaker 2: He lost the election to Clinton, and he twenty five

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Speaker 2: Marines got picked to be his basically bodyguards of The

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Speaker 2: official title is bullet catcher as all was, you know,

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Speaker 2: because he's in a war zone, right but still still

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Speaker 2: and you're gonna talk down to me, man, redneck piece

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Speaker 2: of tracks.

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Speaker 1: That's what I thought.

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Speaker 2: I walked right off the job site into the Army recruiter's.

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Speaker 1: Office and that's when you join the army.

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Speaker 2: And say, hey, man, when's the bustle league? Dude? Come

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Speaker 2: out of here? And I went back when my duty.

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Speaker 1: But now you're forty five ish and inn Muncie. You

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Speaker 1: spent twenty five years developing a very unique skill set

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Speaker 1: that doesn't translate back to the States. No, what are

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Speaker 1: you doing so nothing? But you're hating Muslims.

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Speaker 2: But I'm hating Muslims. And that's the first time I noticed.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they had always been there, but I've never

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Speaker 2: noticed them before. And here they are everywhere, at the Walmart,

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Speaker 2: at the Walmart, oh, at Applebee's. My wife at the

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Speaker 2: at the at the time, she would get so nervous

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Speaker 2: going to going shopping.

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Speaker 1: Your wife then's name was Dana.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about Emily, Oh man, I was introduced to

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Speaker 2: Emily when she was four years old.

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Speaker 1: This is Dana's data's daughter. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Her dad's a foreign national. He's from Mexico, and uh,

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Speaker 2: he got in a lot of trouble here. So he

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Speaker 2: was deported with basically a sticker on his butt saying

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Speaker 2: do not return. Right, So she didn't have a dad,

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Speaker 2: and me and her just became like best buddies.

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Speaker 1: To hear her talk about you is phenomenal. There's a

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Speaker 1: short third minute documentary about what we're about to discuss

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Speaker 1: and your life. We've caught it up to that point.

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Speaker 1: The name of the documentary is Stranger at the Gates, right,

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Speaker 1: Stranger at the Gate, and it's an Academy Award nominee.

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Speaker 1: When I watched it and I listened to Emily speak

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Speaker 1: about you, she revered you. You were her dad. Oh

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Speaker 1: and she was just a pup at this time, right

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Speaker 1: four or five, six, seven years old, and you're her.

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Speaker 1: You take her riding, you take her driving, where you

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Speaker 1: are she is, and you were you were her father. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you cherish this girl, oh my gosh, more than

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Speaker 1: anything and given your unique skill set. Anybody hears a

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Speaker 1: harm harms a hair on her head. I imagine you

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Speaker 1: could have done more than waterboard.

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Speaker 2: Gladly go back to jail. I mean, I've been to

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Speaker 2: jail before, gladly returned, gladly returned for an extended stay.

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Speaker 1: Have no problem with that. And at the same time,

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Speaker 1: you're carrying this hate for Muslims and frankly, this innate

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Speaker 1: disgust that your destiny was stolen from you because now

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Speaker 1: you're alive, walking around the United States and you didn't

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Speaker 1: go out the way you thought you were.

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Speaker 2: I had no purpose except for being this little girl's dad.

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Speaker 2: Except for being a little girl's dad.

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Speaker 1: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: So I had come up with a point. I found

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Speaker 2: out that these Muslims, there's a lot of them here.

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Speaker 2: Oh God, no, huh huh. So I had went and

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Speaker 2: found out where their building was at that time. It

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Speaker 2: was actually in a house that was in a neighborhood

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Speaker 2: that was right off Ball State University. Is the is

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Speaker 2: the university there in Muncie. It was right off campus,

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Speaker 2: right and I looked at it, and this is their mosque.

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Speaker 2: I guess I don't know what you call it. Well yeah, yeah, mosque.

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Speaker 1: But this was their house of worship.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this was their house of where it was basically

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Speaker 2: just a house in a neighborhood, right, And I looked

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Speaker 2: around and I was like, I can't do nothing here, man,

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Speaker 2: this is not a a agreeable option because of all

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Speaker 2: of the Americans around here.

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Speaker 1: And that's the way I looked at it. Did you

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Speaker 1: feel like they were a threat? Oh? Absolutely, you felt

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Speaker 1: like the Muslims that were at Walmart, at Applebee's and

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Speaker 1: hanging out this house at their place of worship and

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Speaker 1: we're going to school with your daughter, yeah, or a

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Speaker 1: risk mm hmm. You literally thought they were looking just

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Speaker 1: for ways to covertly murder you and your family and

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Speaker 1: Americans absolutely and destroy your country absolutely, which is the

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Speaker 1: only thing that mattered to you in the world was

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Speaker 1: your country and your daughter. Yep. And you look back

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Speaker 1: on it now and that is the most perturbed thinking

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Speaker 1: on the face of the planet. But that is where

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Speaker 1: you were. Yeah. Yeah, so you come up with a plan.

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Speaker 2: I had, you know, because all my experiences, I knew

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Speaker 2: how to make an ID. It's really very simple, you know,

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Speaker 2: a bomb. Yeah, and uh, I don't I don't speak

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Speaker 2: of it. More than that usually because the FBI had

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Speaker 2: me sign paperwork that I would not disclose what was

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Speaker 2: involved in the bomb.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to talk about how to make it.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's any I don't think that part

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Speaker 1: of the story does anybody any good. But let's just

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Speaker 1: say so, after twenty five years, you could make a bomb.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So, And I had started putting together over

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Speaker 2: two years with the intent, with the intent that detonated

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Speaker 2: somewhere with these Muslims. I couldn't do it here because

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Speaker 2: of this house. It's in a neighborhood. Too many Americans around, right,

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Speaker 2: so the risk to others was just too substantial.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't going to do that.

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Speaker 2: Then they moved and they got They took over an

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Speaker 2: office building that was kind of out in the middle

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Speaker 2: of nowhere, off the beaten path.

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Speaker 1: Perfect became a target.

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Speaker 2: I got it now. So when I actually went into

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Speaker 2: the mosque that one day, the bomb was done. I

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Speaker 2: just needed time, a time and date, which I'd already

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Speaker 2: decided was going to be during Ramadan, which is the

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Speaker 2: holy month. Because it's kind of like Catholics and Christmas Mass, right,

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Speaker 2: everybody's there.

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Speaker 1: So there were there was the biggest opportunity for the

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Speaker 1: greatest about a carnage and damage on that day.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it was going to be a Friday afternoon during

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Speaker 2: the month of Ramadan, because I knew they would all

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Speaker 2: be there and you were going to plant this thing

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Speaker 2: at their place and blow them up. I already had

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Speaker 2: a place for it everything. It was just a matter

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Speaker 2: of just waiting.

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Speaker 1: You realize that that would make you no different than

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Speaker 1: the men who flew the planes into the World Trade Zone.

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Speaker 1: I know that now, But you didn't see yourself as

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Speaker 1: a terrorist. You saw yourself as a patriot. Absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 1: Do you find it at all ironic that one of

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Speaker 1: your memories of your grandfather was wearing you out for

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Speaker 1: hanging out with a quote and I'm quoting what your

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Speaker 1: grandfather said, colored kid. And your greatest visceral reaction as

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Speaker 1: an adult was when a Muslim person side across from

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Speaker 1: your daughter. Do you find it interesting that from a

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Speaker 1: very young age, that idea was somewhere in the deepest

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Speaker 1: rests of your brain, probably baked into you.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even I didn't even till I had already changed.

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Speaker 2: Didn't even see the irony in it all, because it

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Speaker 2: literally is the same thing literally is the same thing

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Speaker 2: of what I felt as a little kid to what

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Speaker 2: my daughter was feeling right now.

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Speaker 1: And how do you how do you process that?

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Speaker 2: When I finally figured that out, I didn't even know.

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Speaker 2: I was kind of like I was ashamed. Well, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, I spend a lot of time in the

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Speaker 2: shame arena anyway, just dealing with my past. But it

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Speaker 2: was there was just so much shame.

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Speaker 1: It was like, man, you.

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Speaker 2: Are the dumbest individual. Walk upright, man, I mean, how

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Speaker 2: could you not see this?

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Speaker 1: So you walk into this newly opened house of worship

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Speaker 1: for Muslims in Muncie, Indiana, and you are on part

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Speaker 1: recon mission because if you're looking around, you're also seeing

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Speaker 1: where the softest place is for this bomb to blow

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Speaker 1: up and everything else I'm assuming.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean I had already had a spot picked

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Speaker 2: out that was on the opposite side of the building

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Speaker 2: because there were buildings over here, and I knew that

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Speaker 2: they would be hit by some of the debris, but

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Speaker 2: I was trying to make it as less as possible,

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Speaker 2: so that would have been an acceptable collateral damage. In

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Speaker 2: military planning, there was an acceptable and an unacceptable collateral

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Speaker 2: damage that would have been acceptable.

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Speaker 1: So I read that when you were going off on

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Speaker 1: the Muslim community, your daughter looked at you like you

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Speaker 1: were nuts, and she couldn't understand why you were so

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Speaker 1: angry and had so much hatred toward Buslims, no differently

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Speaker 1: than you didn't understand your grandfather exactly. And so part

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Speaker 1: of the idea of showing up at this mosque was

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Speaker 1: to find out the truth about these people so that

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Speaker 1: she would understand why you blew them up.

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Speaker 2: One day, I was looking for tangible proof I knew

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Speaker 2: the way I felt was the right way.

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Speaker 1: You knew they were murderers, Oh I knew, and you

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Speaker 1: know they were head choppers, and you knew they were

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Speaker 1: here to destroy America. That's all you knew that you

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Speaker 1: wanted to prove to her.

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Speaker 2: I needed something to show her. I needed, you know.

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Speaker 2: So I went there, introduced myself as somebody just wanted

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Speaker 2: to learn a little bit more about Islam, right, even

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Speaker 2: though I come from the mindset that even today a

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Speaker 2: lot of people say I learned all I needed to

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Speaker 2: learn about Islam on nine to eleven. But that's the way.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted that proof because I knew I was

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Speaker 2: going to get caught. I'm not get away with this.

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Speaker 2: Are you serious? You know? I mean you no, I didn't.

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Speaker 2: I didn't because I saw it as that patriot, patriot,

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Speaker 2: another chance to die for my country. I wasn't going

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Speaker 2: to get a flag, Dray Coffin. I would not even

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Speaker 2: get a military funeral because of what I did. And

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Speaker 2: none of that mattered. I actually believe that years down

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Speaker 2: the road they were going to build statues to me.

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Speaker 2: I actually believe that in my own mind.

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Speaker 1: You know. So you go in this place to.

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Speaker 2: So I went in, yeah, and I mean and I

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Speaker 2: was met with kindness. And I remember walking in and uh,

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Speaker 2: you know this one guy he actually played NBA. He

355
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Speaker 2: was African American and he was sitting on a bench

356
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Speaker 2: and he got got up in the shoe room because

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Speaker 2: you take your shoes off before you go in there.

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Speaker 2: And it took him like three minutes to stand up,

359
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Speaker 2: that's how tall he was. African American gentleman. He recently

360
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Speaker 2: passed and it was a very sad moment for the community.

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Speaker 2: But he played NBA basketball in the seventies. He dealt

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Speaker 2: with a lot of racism himself, right because of that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, he looked at me, and he smiled,

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Speaker 2: and he says, can I help you? Because he knew

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Speaker 2: I was like, why am I here? You know?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I can only imagine this twenty five years of

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Speaker 1: being basically a rugged jar head walking into a place

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Speaker 1: that he hates and he despises everybody in it. You

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Speaker 1: couldn't have been walking in with a big, old charismatic

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Speaker 1: smile on your face. It was rough. It was rough.

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Speaker 2: In the film, people say that they could tell something

372
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Speaker 2: was wrong, right, I'm not an actor. I tried, but

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Speaker 2: it was hard to cover up a lot of things, right.

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Speaker 2: I tried to smile. I tried to I shook hands,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: But it was rough.

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Speaker 2: And then I got introduced to the Southern African American

378
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Speaker 2: gentleman closer my own age. He's a little bit younger

379
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Speaker 2: than me, and he's the one who actually handed me

380
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Speaker 2: a koran. I know in the film it says Bbe

381
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Speaker 2: handed me a koran, but it was actually him. He says,

382
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Speaker 2: He says, hey, he says, you want to learn about Islam.

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Speaker 2: I want you to take his home and I want

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Speaker 2: you to read it. Come back and find me when

385
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Speaker 2: you got questions. I tell Muslims out to day, I said,

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Speaker 2: if you ever anybody comes up to you and they

387
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Speaker 2: want to learn it, they want to know about Islam,

388
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Speaker 2: hand him a Koran and tell them to come back

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Speaker 2: and find you when they got questions, right, because that's

390
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Speaker 2: the best advice in the world. And I was overjoyed

391
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Speaker 2: at this point because now you got the doctor went

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Speaker 2: to the bookstore and got a Koran. I never even

393
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Speaker 2: thought of that, never even thought of that. I'm like,

394
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Speaker 2: I got the Holy Grail to evil.

395
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Speaker 1: They just handed it to it.

396
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Speaker 2: And on top of that, they're going to explain it

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: It was like, that is hilarious. I'm like, I'm like,

399
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Speaker 1: this is oh.

400
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Speaker 2: I couldn't even imagine me and cruse of.

401
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 1: My daughter that blowing these folks up and terrorize them

402
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Speaker 1: and murdering them is the right thing to do.

403
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Speaker 2: So I jumped into it, man, I jumped into I

404
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,520
Speaker 2: I I that was ended up becoming my passion. I'm

405
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: going to read this book and I'm gonna I'm gonna

406
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 2: highlight underline all kinds of stuff. Man, you thought I

407
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: was in a Bible study or something, right, And I'm

408
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 2: just I'm going out. I'm going back to the mosque.

409
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 2: It wasn't Ramadon. Yet I was there more often than

410
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Speaker 2: some of the Muslims were, and I'm going back and

411
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Speaker 2: hey man, what about this. This don't sound too cool.

412
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Speaker 2: And then they explain it to me and it's like, well,

413
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:43,200
Speaker 2: I was contextualizing a lot, and they would explain, Okay,

414
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 2: here's what happened before, and here's what happened after, and

415
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Speaker 2: that's the reason this is right. Oh, that's not a

416
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,720
Speaker 2: lot different than the old Tustaman. Okay, I got you,

417
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Speaker 2: I got you, okay, h And I go read some

418
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 2: more and I come back and you know, and then finally,

419
00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: you know, with the other stuff that I had going

420
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Speaker 2: on on my own subconscious or whatever, I know, it's

421
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,439
Speaker 2: a change was happening. And one of the biggest things

422
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 2: on the surface was the fact that through reading this

423
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Speaker 2: book and spending time with these people, you know, it's

424
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 2: the same thing with all religions, Right, we have a

425
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: text and we try to live our life as close

426
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Speaker 2: to that text as we can. Right, it's impossible to

427
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: be one hundred percent because we're human and we're.

428
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Speaker 1: Not making the first twenty five years text for you

429
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 1: was probably the Marine Handbook.

430
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Speaker 2: Absolutely, Absolutely, he's to be able to recite stuff by heart,

431
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 2: not a problem. So I'm reading this and you know, yeah,

432
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: there's some things in there that are questionable, and it's like, okay,

433
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,400
Speaker 2: well they got explained to me. And then I keep reading.

434
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Speaker 2: It's like, there's not really any hate in this book,

435
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 2: and there's not it's not here, you know, and I'm thinking, okay, well,

436
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: what about these people over here, the people in my community, right,

437
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: we're acting close to what it says in this so

438
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 2: they're actually being what would be quote unquote good Muslims. Right,

439
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,239
Speaker 2: all of my understanding of what Islam was and how

440
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 2: Muslims act were the ones that were shooting at me.

441
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,679
Speaker 2: And I could find things in the Quran that they

442
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 2: were doing that was un Islamic to begin with. And

443
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, so I should not be getting

444
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 2: references about what this faith is from them, but instead

445
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 2: from them. So that started things changing. I'd never consider

446
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 2: myself an intellectual person, but I started. I started going

447
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 2: through this, I started thinking about it, and I kept reading.

448
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: I kept reading, and you know, I come across passages

449
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: of chapter five, thirty second verse where it says, to

450
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 2: save one human life is as if you had saved

451
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: all of humanity, and I'm like, wow, wow, But to

452
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,440
Speaker 2: kill or take one human life is as if you

453
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: killed all of humanity, so that totally blew these people away.

454
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 2: I had no nothing for them anymore.

455
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:26,879
Speaker 1: We'll be right back, all right. I'm a Christian. I

456
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: also like to consider myself. I really like to understand

457
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: different viewpoints. I also think faith regardless of your denomination,

458
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: your Christian denomination, or whether you're you subscribe to Islam

459
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: or Hindu or what, I think it's a very personal thing.

460
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna tread lightly. Well, let me say it

461
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: a different way. I don't do much lightly. I'm gonna

462
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: tread respectfully. I know that saying. I've heard it before.

463
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 1: To take one life is to take all of humanity,

464
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: and to save one life is save all of humanity,

465
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: or something like that. It's close, right. I know I'm

466
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: not quoting the Koran, but that's the Gist's what's the version,

467
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 1: Chapter five two, verse five thirty two. The men who

468
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 1: flew the planes into the world trades and in the

469
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: Pentagon that Americans today who served there cleaning it up

470
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: are still dying of cancers, some of which don't even

471
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: have a name. So the three thousand odd people that

472
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: died on that day are just a drop in the

473
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: bucket of the people that are still dying from that event,

474
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,720
Speaker 1: and it is horrific. I know a lot of people

475
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 1: who are Muslim, who are American Muslims, who are affected

476
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: no differently by that event than I am, exactly. But

477
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: the fact is the people who flew those planes into

478
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: those buildings were yelling Allah bar and subscribed to a

479
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: faith that they called Islam. And what five point thirty

480
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 1: two says and what they did don't agree, No, they don't.

481
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 1: I want to give you an opportunity to a largely

482
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: non Muslim audience to help me, as an American and

483
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: a Christian, understand that.

484
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,479
Speaker 2: And that is the difficult And I appreciate you asking

485
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: me that question.

486
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: I really do.

487
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: I I'm being very serious because that that that's the

488
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: kind of questions that need to be asked, right and

489
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 2: and and and and Unfortunately, there's not a lot of

490
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: Muslims that are willing.

491
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: To go there. No, there's not. And that's also a

492
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 1: problem asking that's respectfully, they're their own worst enemy to

493
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: their faith by not going there, just like a Christian

494
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: is his own worst enemy to his faith. When the

495
00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: over someone who's on the fence about faith and Christianity

496
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,239
Speaker 1: and they hear the narrative, believe like me, or you're

497
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: rotten in hell for the rest of your life. If

498
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: that is what my faith is, we got a tough

499
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: thing to sell, you know what I mean? And that

500
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,440
Speaker 1: is not Our faith is about love and grace and

501
00:29:54,600 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 1: redemption and forgiveness and and and all of that. I

502
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: do not believe that Muslims are gathered around a Kuran

503
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to kill the next three

504
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: thousand Americans. And I hear what you're saying about five

505
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: point thirty two, but it is hard for an American

506
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 1: Christian to know who those people were and what they

507
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: were subscribed to, as well as Osama bin Laden, as

508
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 1: well as all that's going on across the country and

509
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: in the Middle East right now. Help us, help us

510
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: understand it.

511
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 2: Sure, so, I'm not a geopolitical expert by no means

512
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: need neither, But I do have an understanding Christianity, which

513
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 2: I have the utmost respect for and love. Matter of fact,

514
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: somebody asked me one time how hard it was for

515
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 2: me to convert from Christianity to Islam. I said, well,

516
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 2: I wasn't a Christian, and they said what I said, No,

517
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 2: I was not a Christian, I said, I would never

518
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: say it was a Christian, I said, and that's only

519
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: because of my love and respect for that religion. The

520
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: way I was acting, the way I was speaking, that's not.

521
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: Christian you know.

522
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: So yeah, so it's out of that respect for Christianity.

523
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 2: But with the terrorists, because that's what they were, the terrorists,

524
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: they are labeled as Muslims because that was the claim.

525
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: Too many people came out afterwards claiming that yes they

526
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: were Muslim, they were devout.

527
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 1: No, they weren't.

528
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: I my religion has a restriction to where I can't

529
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: say somebody's not a Muslim. I can't say that.

530
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to judge it. Yeah, Christianity has the

531
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: same same deal.

532
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to say that they weren't Muslims.

533
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: I will say for the for the simple fact that

534
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: they were not in any way, any way, shape or form,

535
00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:19,760
Speaker 2: acting Islamically. They were driven, brainwashed, I don't know, agreed retribution, payback.

536
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: One of the things that really got Osama bin Laden

537
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 2: started was desert storm. He had told the Saudi government

538
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,840
Speaker 2: because where that's where he was from and where most

539
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: of the hijackers were from.

540
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: Right an American ally, Yeah, I know, I don't understand,

541
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 1: which a lot of people did not forget.

542
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: I do not want to get on that soapbox. But anyway,

543
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 2: so he offered his Mujahideen holy warriors right from Afghanistan

544
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 2: to come back to Saudi Arabia or to go to

545
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia where he was from, to defend against Iraq,

546
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 2: because that was Saddam's plan, was he was gonna keep

547
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 2: going south right.

548
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: He ye, and then yep, and until you guys showed up.

549
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 2: Well that that was what hurt, you know, as I

550
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 2: you know, excuse my reference, but he was butt hurt.

551
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: He got but hurt because because the Saudi government said,

552
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,800
Speaker 2: now we got the Americans coming, it's cool. You guys

553
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 2: just stayed there and it's all right. That's what started

554
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: the whole contemplation of how to get back at America.

555
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: And the fact that we were in fidels, which is

556
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 2: not even a proper term to be used in that

557
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 2: in that statement, but and we were on the holy land,

558
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia's you know, two holy sites in Saudi Arabia's

559
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: three holy sites in Islam ones in Jerusalem and the

560
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,479
Speaker 2: other two are in Saudi Arabia, and so we kind

561
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 2: of like dirty up to the land. In his eyes, right,

562
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 2: he did have a lot of geopolitical interests. He was

563
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 2: a man of means, money and he was going to

564
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 2: do everything he could in his mind. Well, I don't

565
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: even know what his understanding of Islam was. I have

566
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: no idea, And to be honest with you, I'm not

567
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: really interested because he's nobody.

568
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: To me. He was.

569
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 2: He was a bad person. I will say that he

570
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,080
Speaker 2: found a way because he was a very correct, charismatic person.

571
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 2: I mean, look at what he did. You know, he

572
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: was able to get people to follow along with his ideas,

573
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: even as far as giving up their own life. That

574
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 2: is brings back stories of John Jones.

575
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: David Kriesh, I was just about to say to you

576
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: and to our listeners as you're listening to this, what

577
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:16,840
Speaker 1: you're saying is men of power take uneducated folks and

578
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: perturb a religion to make them extreme in order to

579
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,919
Speaker 1: carry out acts that have nothing to do with faith

580
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,720
Speaker 1: or religion but are more about geopolitical and social issues.

581
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: And if you have your hard time to get your

582
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: arms around that. As a Christian American, you need to

583
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: try to remember that right next to often times strung

584
00:35:49,600 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: up black Americans for the burning Christian cross yeah and

585
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 1: bibles that is not Christianity. Is a perturbing of a faith. Yeah.

586
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 1: And if you can't get your arms around that this

587
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 1: has happened among many fays and many cultures, then you'll

588
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: never understand that the people who subscribe to Islam that

589
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: flew the planes into the buildings and the Pentagon are

590
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 1: not with the vast majority of the people worshiping in

591
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: mosques think or believe absolutely, you know and it but

592
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 1: you hate Muslims. Well, I'm gonna let you get to

593
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: the rest of it here in a minute. But is

594
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 1: that a fair statement what I said? Absolutely, But you

595
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,440
Speaker 1: didn't know that when you showed up and you asked

596
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: kron and you're going to prove to your daughter while

597
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 1: blowing these folks up is a good thing. And then

598
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 1: people started hugging you.

599
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know that was not to mention being a veteran,

600
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 2: you know, I mean I hugged people anyway, you know,

601
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:18,160
Speaker 2: which has got me into some trouble because in Islam

602
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: we're not to shake hands or to hug women, right

603
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 2: that are not related to us. So I was speaking

604
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: at a Holocaust museum in Chicago and Jesse Jackson's daughter

605
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: came there to see me, and she came up to

606
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 2: me and just reached out and give me a hug.

607
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 2: There was pictures taken that became a total social media

608
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 2: nightmare for me. Really, yes, because we call them the

609
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 2: halal police. Right, Halal means permissible, Haram means impermissible. Okay,

610
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 2: so what was happening was haram. We call them the

611
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 2: halal police because they'll come out, Oh, you.

612
00:37:59,280 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: Can't do that.

613
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 2: You can't do that, brother, Oh what do you thinking?

614
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: What are you thinking?

615
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, my gosh, man, the woman hugged me.

616
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: The woman hugged me, and.

617
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 1: By the way, and there's nothing behind us, so take

618
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:11,760
Speaker 1: a pill.

619
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: Well I did feel that way, I really did. At first,

620
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,719
Speaker 2: I became very defensive and I lasked out as some

621
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: of these people, and then one person calmly explained it

622
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 2: to me. He says, yes, of course, there was nothing

623
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 2: meant by what you were doing, nothing at all from

624
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 2: either person involved in that. But you're a public figure now,

625
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 2: people look up to you. Especially the young people. They

626
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 2: see stuff like that. It confuses them. Yes, was there

627
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 2: any harm done?

628
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: No?

629
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: Not really. My wife knew about it. She didn't care.

630
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: And that's the only one I'd care to be upset

631
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: about it, right, because she knows. But it's how it perceived, right,

632
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: And and so you know, that's a lot of times

633
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: when a woman comes towards me, you know, and I

634
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: know she's gonna ask to shake my hand, you know,

635
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: and it's it. I just put my hand up to

636
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: my chest. I think I did that out there, right, Yeah,

637
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 2: that's right, you didn't. You did.

638
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 3: It's done as a means of respect, not disrespect. So

639
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 3: there's a matter of this bomb you made.

640
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:38,720
Speaker 1: So now you've found out these people in this mosque

641
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: or loving decent people, and you're not going to explode

642
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 1: them anymore. But le's they shows up at your apartment.

643
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I can, let me go back a little bit, Yeah,

644
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,160
Speaker 2: to explain the whole concept of what you were thinking.

645
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 2: Because of the ignorance, right, surrounded by not only Muslims

646
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: with their own faith, but Christians also back in the

647
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: Middle A, right, a large part of christiendom was ignorant

648
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: they couldn't read and write, right, they were serfs and

649
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 2: they worked, and that's all they did. They didn't They're

650
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 2: the only people that could read and write were the priests,

651
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: and they were all families. And the Bible at that

652
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: time was in Latin anyway, So the priest told you

653
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 2: what the Bible said. They were the interpreters of the

654
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 2: Bible exactly, which is not any different than what a

655
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 2: minister or preacher is now is an interpreter of of

656
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: what it's saying, right to to give out to his

657
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 2: to his people, to this congregation, right, and and and

658
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 2: that's and that's good. It should be that that's what

659
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 2: the moms do, right, right, the good of moms. So

660
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: which I will get to. So we have crusades, we

661
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: have the heresy of the knights. Templars, right, nice templars,

662
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 2: didn't do anything wrong. French king and the pope at

663
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: the time got together. France was broke. Templars are controlling

664
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: all the land in the Middle East, in the area

665
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: of Jerusalem and surrounding areas. So oh, let's make them heretics,

666
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,799
Speaker 2: and that way we just confiscate their property. So now

667
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:19,400
Speaker 2: we're not broke, right, that's a true story that actually

668
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 2: happened Afghanistan. We had captured a or not we not me,

669
00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: but the American forces there had captured a would be

670
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: suicide bomber. He was going to drive in a truck

671
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 2: full of explosives into the gate at Camp leather Neet,

672
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 2: which had been done anyway, eventually got done anyway, It's

673
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,360
Speaker 2: not by him. So I sat in on this interrogation.

674
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 2: This guy, the guy who was doing it, was doing

675
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 2: the interrogation, was actually a Muslim. It was a marine

676
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 2: who had converted Islam, married a local girl, okay, and

677
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: he was all into it. Man. I used to tease

678
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 2: him all the time in a fun way, but really

679
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: I could have just like cut his throat right there.

680
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: That's the way I felt about him, right. But he

681
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,240
Speaker 2: would keep this little knapsack and he'd have a Koran

682
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: in English and a Koran in Pashtun, which was what

683
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: his wife spoke, right, So he was he was constantly

684
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: looking at it, constantly looking through it and trying to learn.

685
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 1: Right.

686
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:24,360
Speaker 2: And so we get this guy in there. He's leaning

687
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: forward in a chair that's bolted to the ground with

688
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 2: chains that are also on these like hooks. The I

689
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: forget what they're calling.

690
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 1: But you know what I mean.

691
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 2: And they were in there his hands. Yeah, very very

692
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 2: uncomfortable position. And we're talking to him, and he threw interpreters.

693
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,320
Speaker 2: He pipes up and he says, he says, if I

694
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: kill the infidel, I'm guaranteed Heaven right now. You hear

695
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 2: that statement a lot.

696
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: What we think. I'm so glad you're doing this because

697
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: I was going to ask about it.

698
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: And and this is where this is where going back

699
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 2: to nine at eleven, how this kind of ties in.

700
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: The interrogator at that time picked out in me says, really,

701
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 2: hold on a second, goes over to his knapsack, gets

702
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: the Koran out and pashtune, slides it across the table,

703
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 2: tells him through interpreters, if you can show me where

704
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 2: it is in that book that it says that, I'll

705
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:27,240
Speaker 2: let you go. The dude sunk his head.

706
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 1: And said, I can't read.

707
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 2: I can't read. That's what the mom told us. So

708
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 2: there's a tie in there, okay. And and and that's

709
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: a huge part that still is is throughout Islam is

710
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 2: a large portion of our population throughout the world is ignorant.

711
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: They can't read. They can't write. And that's how you

712
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 2: get these guys who have agendas to tie in that.

713
00:43:55,400 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: Can indoctrinate the most needy and uneducated among them to

714
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: do their bidding for things that have nothing to do

715
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: with their religion.

716
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: Right now, it's it's the duty of all Muslims to

717
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 2: try to memorize the Koran, okay, even parts of it.

718
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: So I know they have memorized parts of the Quran,

719
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 2: but they don't have the educational background to even decipher

720
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: what they're what they're reciting. So it's it's like, you know,

721
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: it's I can read something, but if I don't know

722
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 2: what this word means, or I don't know how this

723
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,440
Speaker 2: sentence structures. Yeah, you know, I don't. I don't know.

724
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 2: But all this guy's explaining it to me. He's a

725
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,719
Speaker 2: respected person, you know. So there's so many similarities there,

726
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 2: especially from the early Church to Islam too, and and

727
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: and and I don't speak a lot about Judaism because

728
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,800
Speaker 2: I really don't know that much about Judaism, but but

729
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,200
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's a tie in there too.

730
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. You went in looking to kill

731
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,400
Speaker 1: them all and ended up loving them all, and frankly

732
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: them loving you, but you still made a freaking bomb.

733
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: And we're playing around blowing these folks up. And at

734
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 1: some point, I know the FBI catches wind of the

735
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:32,320
Speaker 1: pre mentality you.

736
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 2: Well, so here's how that happened. It had already happened,

737
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, this conversion, this change of heart,

738
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,919
Speaker 2: whatever you want to say. I had disposed of a bomb,

739
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,719
Speaker 2: disposed of all the parts properly, then just throw them

740
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: in a dumpster. I got it, and it's went on

741
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:59,480
Speaker 2: about my life. I now, nobody at this point even

742
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 2: knows what you're plans for. Anybody that knew me knew

743
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 2: I hated Muslims.

744
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, no idea. They had no idea of your building.

745
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,799
Speaker 1: You kept that under your hat, just me. Nobody else

746
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,719
Speaker 1: got it until that. So, so I was.

747
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: I was in college now because the VA, you know,

748
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 2: I'm part of the system now in the VA says, hey,

749
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:20,560
Speaker 2: why why don't you go to cause I can't do

750
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 2: labor work. I would have loved to have been to welder,

751
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: but your back's shot, can't do it got blown up. Yeah,

752
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 2: so I have to do a behind a desk job now,

753
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 2: you know. So I have to go to college for

754
00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,160
Speaker 2: that because I'm I'm dumber in the box of rocks. Okay,

755
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:39,880
Speaker 2: so I got to learn something, right. And so I'm

756
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,479
Speaker 2: in I'm in class, and I'm forty somedd years old,

757
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 2: mid forties, and I'm so. I had a different relationship

758
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 2: with my professors than the twenty something students. We were

759
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 2: actually more friends.

760
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: You know.

761
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 2: I was sitting in an office drinking coffee with one

762
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: of my professors and I don't even know why. I

763
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 2: don't know what started the whole conversation, but I told her.

764
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 2: I told her the story.

765
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: You're kidding me? No, you said, hey, you know what, Yeah,

766
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: I built a bomb and I was going to blow

767
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: these fools up. Now I'm one of them.

768
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

769
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: How'd that go over?

770
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah. She was like, oh my gosh. And she

771
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 2: knew me on the outside through charity organizations stuff that

772
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: I had been a part of and start and done

773
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: stuff for and everything like that, so she knew I

774
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 2: was not just talking to be talking, right, And she goes,

775
00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, she goes, you have got to tell

776
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: that story that could change people's lives. I'm like, really,

777
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: I didn't think nothing of it, you know, it's something

778
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:49,760
Speaker 2: that happened it's over whatever, you know, And she says,

779
00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: what are you doing the rest of the days? Said, well,

780
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: when I finish this coffee, I was can go home

781
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,400
Speaker 2: and go to sleep. I ain't got nothing else to do.

782
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: She goes, no, you got my next class tell that story.

783
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: So I did.

784
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 2: Somebody in that class was shocked that here this guy

785
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 2: is saying that he made a bomb.

786
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: An unbalanced former marine in our midst.

787
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 2: And now he's a Muslim.

788
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 1: Yo.

789
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,960
Speaker 2: No, he's making phone calls saying you got check his

790
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 2: dude out. And there there they come. And it was

791
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 2: funny because you know, a lot of times I and

792
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 2: I think this is a guy thing too, where we'll

793
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 2: say stuff and is like, as soon as it leaves

794
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 2: our mouth, we're trying to reach out and grab it back.

795
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: Right.

796
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, Because they showed up, introduced themselves, and I was like,

797
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,920
Speaker 2: what took you so long? That's what I said to him.

798
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: And as soon as I said that, I was like, dude,

799
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 2: oh man, And and so we talked. It started out

800
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 2: as a like a health and comfort kind of visit,

801
00:48:58,080 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 2: right to make sure I was.

802
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 1: Okay waterboarding, but they were investigating.

803
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,319
Speaker 2: So we talked about it and I told him I said, yeah,

804
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: it's going So they said, well, do you mind if

805
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: we uh do an investigation for explosives here in the house.

806
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: And I said, At half hour later, I'm handcuffed in

807
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 2: the front lawn, bomb dogs going through my house and

808
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 2: then my wife and my daughter pull up.

809
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh.

810
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,879
Speaker 2: They didn't know anything. Even after the fact, they didn't

811
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 2: know about it. I didn't even tell them, and I

812
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 2: already told her a professor at school.

813
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: You know, I tell you.

814
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 2: So I'm like most husbands. I don't tell my wife nothing.

815
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 2: But but but it was, it was, you know, that

816
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,280
Speaker 2: was that was the beginning at the end of that marriage.

817
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 2: Because there's people in FBI jackets, local police department, and

818
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 2: I'm in a I live in an apartment complex. It's

819
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: a big deal. Everybody's out.

820
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: I read and they didn't find it, and they found

821
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: you to no longer be a threat and all of that.

822
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,960
Speaker 1: What is astonishing to me is now you have to

823
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: tell these people that you've now joined in your house

824
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 1: of worship that yeah, I was gonna kill all y'all

825
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 1: and they invited you to dinner.

826
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:27,239
Speaker 2: Well, hospitality is big in the Islamic world, especially in

827
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 2: the postun culture, and Bib and her family are from

828
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 2: that culture. They're from Afghanistan, so hospitality is big.

829
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: Hey.

830
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 2: I used to make the joke, I said, because people

831
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:42,600
Speaker 2: we would always when we were doing as you know,

832
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 2: those where you go around and do the premieres and

833
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 2: all that stuff, and people would ask about the food, right,

834
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 2: because Bbe is like, out of this world a cook.

835
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:54,919
Speaker 2: I mean, she's oh my gosh. And I tell people,

836
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 2: I said, man, I used to wear one hundred and

837
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: ninety pounds before I went to her house. I'm two

838
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 2: fifty six, all right, And I said, yeah, don't even

839
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:05,319
Speaker 2: drive by her house because you will look in your

840
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,439
Speaker 2: every mirror and should be chasing you down with a plate.

841
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,080
Speaker 2: That's the way she is, right, Oh, man, I love

842
00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 2: her so much.

843
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: But so.

844
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 2: It was the fact that it was being talked about

845
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 2: because things were being heard because of course I started

846
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 2: talking about it, not telling them like I said. I

847
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 2: still I told that class. I'm not, like I said,

848
00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 2: I'm still not that smart. I never graduated high school.

849
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: I have two degrees now, but I never graduated high

850
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 2: school and you would. And so it's proof that just

851
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 2: having a degree does not make you smart.

852
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 1: Okay.

853
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 2: They had heard about it, and it made a lot

854
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: of people uncomfortable, unbeknownst to me, and she she did.

855
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:55,279
Speaker 2: This was not the first time she invited me to

856
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 2: her house, but now, yeah, she she had intentions.

857
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: Now, well, no, I just wonder if in my church

858
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 1: there was a former Muslim who fought for the Iranian

859
00:52:08,080 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 1: Republican Guard who had formerly gone as far to build

860
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,839
Speaker 1: a bomb and had plans to put it under our

861
00:52:16,960 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 1: sanctuary on Christmas Eve, who then converted and we found

862
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: all this out, if our first reaction would be, hey,

863
00:52:26,120 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: let's have him over to dinner to talk about it.

864
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, I know, Well that's what happened. Yeah,

865
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 2: that's exactly what happened.

866
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we need to check ourselves just a

867
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:44,960
Speaker 1: little because to me, that is the ultimate in grace

868
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: and courage, because I gotta believe there were people in

869
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: her community going what Yeah.

870
00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, people still get they still get a laugh out

871
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 2: of that, regardless of whether they're in the community or not,

872
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,279
Speaker 2: they still get a laugh out of it, because yeah,

873
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 2: it's like, are you serious? I wouldn't want that person

874
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 2: in my house, right.

875
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 1: And she invited you to her home with her family

876
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:08,600
Speaker 1: for dinner.

877
00:53:10,040 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 2: And there was friends there too. There was other other

878
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:15,600
Speaker 2: people from the community they were there also, and you know,

879
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: I was just talking to everybody, and you know, I

880
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 2: I guess looking back, I noticed it was an uncomfortable

881
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 2: feeling that was kind of in the air, I would assume,

882
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: but I did. It didn't really hit me much, you know,

883
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 2: because I mean, here, I'm I'm I'm one of you,

884
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: now right. You know, I didn't even didn't even give

885
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:34,239
Speaker 2: it a much thought.

886
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:38,360
Speaker 1: I also read that one of your all right, in

887
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 1: a church, it's a prishoner. What do you call a

888
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:44,759
Speaker 1: fellow islam worshiping person from your house of worship? What

889
00:53:44,800 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: do you call that person? Is there for that?

890
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: It's his brother?

891
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: Okay, brother or sister or sister. He's an African American

892
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: guy who's American, grew up in America, whose grandfather was

893
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: castro and hung in Munthsy, Indiana, who hated white people.

894
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: Who is now your brother? Oh yeah, How did he

895
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: take the news of the bomb?

896
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,759
Speaker 2: Well, he was just like everybody, I guess when they

897
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:21,040
Speaker 2: did really, when they did find out, he.

898
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,359
Speaker 1: Was shocked, you know, even he for grieve.

899
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean see, And that's that's the similarities

900
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 2: of what our faith stands for.

901
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:34,360
Speaker 1: We have to forgive.

902
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 2: And there's even a psychological advantage to that, because nobody's

903
00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 2: asking you to forget anything. But when you forgive, you

904
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 2: let everything go and and and that's the beauties of

905
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 2: our religion. If there's punishment to be dealt, it's not

906
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 2: by us, and it's not really even our concern mac.

907
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 1: My faith teaches that not only do you have to

908
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:04,920
Speaker 1: give others, you have to give yourselves. How you doing

909
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:05,160
Speaker 1: with that?

910
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:06,760
Speaker 2: In large?

911
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:08,800
Speaker 1: I have?

912
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:12,880
Speaker 2: And the only reason I say that is because people

913
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,400
Speaker 2: have come up to me and they have told me

914
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 2: that I have helped, I have answered questions, warned parts,

915
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: give people hope. I don't think I'm a big deal.

916
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 1: I do not.

917
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,040
Speaker 2: I'm just a guy with a story. I really. I mean,

918
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 2: that's the way I look at myself, right, And and

919
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: it is very humbling at times, you know, But but

920
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 2: I always go back to one of one of my

921
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 2: favorite comments that I had ever received on my message.

922
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 2: And I won't tell you exactly what he said, because

923
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 2: it was it was it's the way I used to talk, right,

924
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,279
Speaker 2: But but he was very he was very honest, and

925
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 2: he said, if a tough guy like you can change

926
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 2: the way he thinks about things. I guess I can too.

927
00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 2: That's what it's all about.

928
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: Well, that's the payoff, isn't it. That's it. We'll be

929
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: right back. I got a question. What do you feel

930
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:29,479
Speaker 1: like you have to forgive yourself for? Because in the film,

931
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,759
Speaker 1: the documentary, you talked about having a hard time at

932
00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:36,839
Speaker 1: first forgiving yourself and I found that to be odd

933
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:40,360
Speaker 1: because you didn't blow the bomb up. So we're not

934
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 1: talking about the bomb, I assumed, and correct me if

935
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. You're talking about the twenty five years in

936
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 1: the military. Absolutely, but make you were serving under orders

937
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 1: doing a really unsavory but unconvenient and uncomfortable truth that

938
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:11,760
Speaker 1: we have to have people defending us or we won't

939
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,919
Speaker 1: be able to have conversations like this because you can't

940
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: have this conversation a lot of countries in this world,

941
00:57:18,600 --> 00:57:22,200
Speaker 1: we have that liberty, and that liberty is precious and

942
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: it requires guys like you who did the work that

943
00:57:25,640 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: you did in the military to provide us with the

944
00:57:29,520 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: freedoms to explore and understand and grow from one another

945
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:37,960
Speaker 1: like this. So what do you need to forgive yourself for?

946
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:42,680
Speaker 1: Is it the fact that you killed people that worship

947
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 1: like you do. Now, it.

948
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 2: Encompasses a lot of things. Really, it's the shame that

949
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 2: I got enjoyment out of it. So now I you know,

950
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 2: you had sayd something with which is really a very

951
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 2: prominent misunderstanding. Okay, is that you mentioned we were under orders.

952
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 2: That's part true because I rose up in rank, okay,

953
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 2: and the higher I got it basically a lot of

954
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:23,320
Speaker 2: times became my call. We were given a task. You

955
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 2: go from here, you go here, and you make it safe.

956
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 2: That's the task.

957
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 1: How is a different deal?

958
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 2: How's a different deal?

959
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 3: I do have.

960
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:43,120
Speaker 1: Issue with that and the fact that I enjoyed it.

961
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 2: On the surface, I guess because I would come back

962
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 2: from operations that I would set and cry for a

963
00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 2: while on my own, just go somewhere. I cry because

964
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 2: it was hard, you know. And the hardest thing was

965
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:13,680
Speaker 2: even I mean, I understood the reason behind it, but

966
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 2: even the dead children.

967
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: Man, you can't some things you cannot see.

968
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 2: You just can't, man.

969
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: And it.

970
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 2: It'll haunt me for the rest of my days, man,

971
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 2: And I know God's forgiven me. You know, it's our thing.

972
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 2: Like the Baptism and Christianity, right, sins are worst away.

973
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 2: At that point you start over, right, we take shaht

974
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 2: it's decoration of faith, right, and we do that publicly.

975
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 2: Once we do that, sins are gone. At that point

976
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 2: start again. So I do feel in my heart that

977
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: God's forgiven me. And in the grand scheme of things,

978
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 2: does it really matter if I ever forgive myself or not? Not? Really,

979
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 2: God forgive me, That's all that matters.

980
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 1: Right, But.

981
01:00:13,240 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 2: Uh, it's just uh man, it's a hard thing.

982
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 1: It And there's men and women all of our country

983
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: who served our country dutifully that are all still probably

984
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 1: dealing with a lot of that. And that is the

985
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 1: price they pay for our ability to have this chat today.

986
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 2: Very true, very true. You know one in five homeless

987
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 2: people are veterans.

988
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, yeah, I read that not too long ago.

989
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:47,600
Speaker 1: That is shameful.

990
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 2: That is shameful. And you know, as in on the

991
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 2: government speed we can send billions of dollars in military

992
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 2: aid to a country, but we come back here and

993
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 2: we sit down and go, yeah, all economic problems because

994
01:01:01,080 --> 01:01:03,200
Speaker 2: all the single moms on food stamps.

995
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:09,000
Speaker 1: What you are now married to a Christian woman, which

996
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 1: is hilarious. You are you have been the president of

997
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:20,920
Speaker 1: your mosque twice, and you've taken the opportunity of your

998
01:01:21,040 --> 01:01:25,760
Speaker 1: story and a documentary that's an OSCAR nominated documentary. It's

999
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:28,800
Speaker 1: only thirty minutes. You guys should watch it. That's had

1000
01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:32,200
Speaker 1: over a million views. And now you have a social

1001
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 1: work degree. Tell me what you're doing with your life now.

1002
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 2: Well. So I do have a degree in social work,

1003
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 2: which means I'm broke. I was working as a life coach,

1004
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 2: and when this film kicked off, and I was going

1005
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:53,760
Speaker 2: here and there for all the premieres and everything, I

1006
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 2: decided to step down. I resigned from my position. And

1007
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 2: because I want to focus on this message. And it's

1008
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 2: not to say that this message is an end all,

1009
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 2: it's not. It's a step. I don't look at myself

1010
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:22,400
Speaker 2: as somebody that's fascinating necessarily or I'm nobody special.

1011
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:23,360
Speaker 1: You know.

1012
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 2: I mean, my teachers just say that about me. But

1013
01:02:26,160 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 2: I'm nobody special, right, And I just want people to

1014
01:02:35,960 --> 01:02:40,320
Speaker 2: stop and think. So I travel and I meet with people,

1015
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 2: not all of them like me. I've had death threats,

1016
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 2: you know. I tell people, considering the first part of

1017
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 2: my life was people trying to kill me. If that

1018
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 2: all of a sudden stopped. I probably go through some

1019
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:50,160
Speaker 2: kind of separation anxiety.

1020
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:55,200
Speaker 1: Right, So it's I'm.

1021
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,520
Speaker 2: Good, I'm good. Keep it up, guys. But but so

1022
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:03,000
Speaker 2: I I just want people stop and think. You don't

1023
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 2: have to agree with me. Some people are not going

1024
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 2: to agree with me. Most people might not agree with me.

1025
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 2: That's fine, but stop and think there may be other options.

1026
01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:14,760
Speaker 2: I use the example of a hand.

1027
01:03:14,880 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: Right.

1028
01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 2: You have you lay your hand out, spread your fingers,

1029
01:03:17,760 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 2: and this signifies differences in humanity, whether it's religion, race,

1030
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:27,680
Speaker 2: you know, uh, social culture, whatever, it doesn't matter. Right,

1031
01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 2: and it's a hand. It's a tool. You can do

1032
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 2: a lot with a hand. Right, But when it comes

1033
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 2: to having things that have to be done and it

1034
01:03:38,400 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 2: has to be done the right way and you have

1035
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:44,120
Speaker 2: to stand firm, what do you do bring it all together?

1036
01:03:44,200 --> 01:03:49,240
Speaker 2: Because this, my friends, is unbreakable, and until we can

1037
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 2: get to this, it's not gonna work.

1038
01:03:55,280 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 1: Matt, your story is crazy. From a drug dealing and

1039
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: using high school drop out to a twenty five year

1040
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 1: veteran of our military who learned to hate Muslims, who

1041
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,120
Speaker 1: got blown up, who decided he was going to blow

1042
01:04:16,200 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 1: up some Muslims and wanted to prove that that was

1043
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 1: a good thing to do to the one thing he

1044
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,560
Speaker 1: loved on the face of the planet, which was his daughter,

1045
01:04:27,800 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: And through trying to prove that, found love and faith

1046
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 1: and forgiveness not only of himself but of everything, and

1047
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:45,240
Speaker 1: converted Islam and is now trying to use all of

1048
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: that experience to get people to just listen to one another.

1049
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 1: That's your life, bro.

1050
01:04:54,680 --> 01:05:00,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I usually end my talks with Years ago, very

1051
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:03,440
Speaker 2: wise Man made a statement that will forever live in history.

1052
01:05:04,240 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 2: He said, I have a dream, I have a plan,

1053
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 2: and it starts with a smile and a conversation.

1054
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 1: I love that. Mac. If somebody wants to meet you here,

1055
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 1: you have them speak. How do they find Mac?

1056
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:21,920
Speaker 2: I am all over social media?

1057
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:23,320
Speaker 1: Give me some handle? Yeah?

1058
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I did start an LLC called From Hate

1059
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 2: to Understanding. If you want to write an email, it's

1060
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 2: from hate from hate to Understanding all one word at

1061
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 2: gmail dot com that go straight to you, I go

1062
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 2: straight to me. Yeah, I'm not I'm not that big.

1063
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 2: I don't have people doing my paperwork stuff for me.

1064
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:47,320
Speaker 2: I don't read my emails. I do TikTok. I'm an

1065
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 2: old guy, but it gets to the young people. And

1066
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:55,680
Speaker 2: that's this Richard mack McKinney on TikTok and Facebook, I

1067
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:57,760
Speaker 2: can't invite anybody to Facebook because I'm full.

1068
01:05:58,880 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 1: What does that mean?

1069
01:06:00,920 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 2: That's a limit? No more friends after five thousand?

1070
01:06:04,520 --> 01:06:09,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, Richard McKinney, everybody otherwise known as Mac brother, thanks

1071
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:11,280
Speaker 1: for coming to Memphis spend some time with me and

1072
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:15,440
Speaker 1: sharing your story and sharing it so openly. I have

1073
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:18,800
Speaker 1: really enjoyed being able to discuss some of the things

1074
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:22,160
Speaker 1: that I think people really wonder about. And I hope

1075
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 1: we've challenged some people to maybe think about things differently, because,

1076
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: as you know, I don't think the narratives coming out

1077
01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:35,360
Speaker 1: of DC or the national media do anything but serve

1078
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: to divide us. And I think when an army of

1079
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:41,440
Speaker 1: normal folks, regardless of how you worship, what you look like,

1080
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 1: who you love, or what you believe, can come together

1081
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:49,400
Speaker 1: and have open, civil, non threatening conversations about the stuff

1082
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:53,120
Speaker 1: that we differ on, is how we can maybe close

1083
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: that hand. One day and you're at the tip of

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01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: the sphere. You've been on a tip of the spear

1085
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 1: of your whole life, and you're the tip of the

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01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: sphere of another fight. And I'll tell you I sleep

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01:07:02,240 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 1: well at night knowing there were men like you on

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01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:07,200
Speaker 1: the wall back when you were serving our country in

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01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,240
Speaker 1: the military. And I sleep well at night knowing there's

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01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: men like you on the wall the tip of the

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01:07:12,920 --> 01:07:16,200
Speaker 1: spear trying to close the frist. And I appreciate you

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01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: joining us fun, Thank you, thanks you being here, and

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01:07:25,480 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us this week. If Richard McKinney

1094
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: or another guest has inspired you in general, or better yet,

1095
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: inspired you to take action by bringing Richard to speak

1096
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 1: to a group in your area or something else entirely,

1097
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:41,960
Speaker 1: please let me know. I'd love to hear about it.

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01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:47,000
Speaker 1: You can write me anytime at Bill at normalfolks dot us.

1099
01:07:47,600 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: I personally will respond. And if you enjoyed this episode,

1100
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 1: share it with friends and on social subscribe to the podcast,

1101
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:59,959
Speaker 1: rate and review it. Please consider becoming a premium member

1102
01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 1: at normalfolks dot us. All these things that can help

1103
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 1: us grow an army of normal folks guys. The more folks,

1104
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:13,440
Speaker 1: the more possibility we have to make an impact. For

1105
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,320
Speaker 1: premium members, we'll have bonus content from this episode, with

1106
01:08:17,600 --> 01:08:21,120
Speaker 1: Mac telling the story of nominating his now friend BB,

1107
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,280
Speaker 1: a woman to be the head of their mosque, which

1108
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,960
Speaker 1: is revolutionary. If you don't want to miss it, become

1109
01:08:28,000 --> 01:08:31,360
Speaker 1: a Premium Member today. I'm Bill Courtney. I'll see you

1110
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:31,840
Speaker 1: next week.