WEBVTT - Short Stuff: NYT Bestseller List

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh and

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<v Speaker 1>there's Chuck and well, it's just Josh and Chuck. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's cool because we know what we're doing. We're professionals.

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<v Speaker 1>We've been doing this for a while, haven't we, Chuck.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're also New York Times best selling authors.

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<v Speaker 1>Isn't that nuts?

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<v Speaker 2>That's one of the nicer feathers in our professional caps.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, yeah. And I mean I knew that was

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<v Speaker 1>a big deal and I'm very proud of it and

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<v Speaker 1>have been since it happened. But after researching this, I'm like, Wow,

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<v Speaker 1>this is a really really big deal, especially considering that

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<v Speaker 1>we were on there for four weeks. That's a big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm pretty proud of us for it.

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<v Speaker 2>Chuck, Yeah, for sure. And the reason we mentioned that

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<v Speaker 2>is because not just a brag, humbly or otherwise, but

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<v Speaker 2>because we're talking about the New York Times best Seller List,

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<v Speaker 2>which is, you know, basically the industry standard for how

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<v Speaker 2>good you're book is doing and how sort of hot

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<v Speaker 2>you are as an author in a snapshot of time

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<v Speaker 2>or over time. And big thanks to HowStuffWorks dot com

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<v Speaker 2>for some of this, and Sophie Vershaw from Esquire magazine,

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<v Speaker 2>who wrote a great article about just sort of the

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<v Speaker 2>mysterious black magic that goes into compiling the New York

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<v Speaker 2>Times list, even though The New York Times will say,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just how how many books you're selling?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're very They publish their methodology, so you know

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<v Speaker 1>kind of what's going on, but you don't really know

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<v Speaker 1>exactly what's going on. And there's a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>in the publishing world that are very suspicious of the

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<v Speaker 1>New York Times and their bestseller list. Even though The

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<v Speaker 1>New York Times goes to great pains to point out

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<v Speaker 1>that the New York Times bestseller list desk, yeah, is

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<v Speaker 1>independent of the editorial desk, advertising, business culture, even the

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<v Speaker 1>book review desk. It's a separate department. The reason that

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<v Speaker 1>they point that out is because they're saying, our bestseller

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<v Speaker 1>list is insulated from pressure from anybody who might be like,

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<v Speaker 1>this publisher is a huge advertiser with the Times, why

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<v Speaker 1>don't you just bump this one up from eleven to

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<v Speaker 1>ten so it can be on the best seller list.

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<v Speaker 1>They're saying that they are immune to that kind of thing,

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<v Speaker 1>and that their list is, like you said, it's a

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<v Speaker 1>numbers game and it's not curated or editorialized. That's what

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<v Speaker 1>they say about it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and we'll get more into that stuff. But nuts

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<v Speaker 2>and bolts wise, the list has multiple categories and they

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<v Speaker 2>all measure different sales types. There are eleven weekly lists,

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<v Speaker 2>seven monthly lists, and they are separated fussly. You have

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<v Speaker 2>three categories of books, fiction, nonfiction, and children's books, and

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<v Speaker 2>then those are all subdivided as well. Fiction and nonfiction

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<v Speaker 2>are broken down into hardcover paperback, and then print and

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<v Speaker 2>digital combined, and then nonfiction's broken down into there's another

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<v Speaker 2>their subcategory for how to books because I guess they

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<v Speaker 2>just want us to live by themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that's our list.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh were we a how to?

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<v Speaker 1>We were advice, how to and miscellaneous. I need a

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<v Speaker 1>teacher that says that.

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<v Speaker 2>And then kids books are divided into middle grade hardcover

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<v Speaker 2>which is all one category, picture books, series, and young

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<v Speaker 2>adult hardcover. And then you got your monthly list, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's where you can find like audiobooks, graphic novels, manga

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<v Speaker 2>stuff like that.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Mass market paperbacks, which I was like, what's the

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<v Speaker 1>difference between mass market paperbacks and regular paperbacks. Mass Market

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<v Speaker 1>paperbacks are printed cheaply and they're distributed like magazines, so

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<v Speaker 1>they're kind of like their own separate thing that kind

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<v Speaker 1>you find in like a little spinner rack at the airport.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a mass market paperback.

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<v Speaker 2>All right, So they say, The New York Times says,

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<v Speaker 2>all right, we have data sources. We keep them confidential

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<v Speaker 2>because they want to quote circumvent potential pressure on the

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<v Speaker 2>booksellers and prevent people from trying to game their way

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<v Speaker 2>onto the list. We'll talk a lot about the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that still happens, probably after the break. But they keep

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<v Speaker 2>their data sources confidential. They say that they don't use

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<v Speaker 2>data aggregators and that they're just getting this data from booksellers.

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<v Speaker 2>But people in the publishing industry say, I just don't

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<v Speaker 2>see how that's possible. They've got to use aggregators, but

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<v Speaker 2>they say they don't.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. They say that every week thousands of book retailers

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<v Speaker 1>digital and brick and mortar send them their sales for

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<v Speaker 1>hundreds of thousands of books, and that they wait them differently,

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<v Speaker 1>like indie bookstores might get slightly more consideration than say,

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<v Speaker 1>like a Barnes and Noble. That's like the details of

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<v Speaker 1>the formula no one knows about. But they say that

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<v Speaker 1>that's where they get their numbers from, that's where they

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<v Speaker 1>get their data from. And yeah, like you said, some

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<v Speaker 1>people are just like this is not possible, or something

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<v Speaker 1>called reader link, there's something called book scam. These are

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<v Speaker 1>huge aggregate tools that there's no way the New York

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<v Speaker 1>Bestseller List is just completely ignoring those.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but I mean they say they don't. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>kind of one of those things where they won't reveal

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<v Speaker 2>all their methodology. I mean they print their methodology, but

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<v Speaker 2>like they don't tell you. I saw a liken to,

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<v Speaker 2>like we kind of know what the formula for coke is,

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<v Speaker 2>but not the exact recipe. Yeah, and that's basically what's

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<v Speaker 2>going on, because there are plenty of instances where people

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<v Speaker 2>can point to raw sales data and say, well, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>the number eight book sold more books than the number

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<v Speaker 2>four book, how can that be? And the New York

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<v Speaker 2>Times will say sales data is just one factor and

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<v Speaker 2>the rest is none. Yah.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's like an impenetrable fortress. And they're really really

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<v Speaker 1>good on leaks, Like you don't leave the New York

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<v Speaker 1>Times bestseller desk, and if you do, you probably turn

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<v Speaker 1>up dead within a week or two in your apartment's.

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<v Speaker 2>In a body bag?

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<v Speaker 1>All right?

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<v Speaker 2>Should we take a break?

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<v Speaker 1>Sure?

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<v Speaker 2>All right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about

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<v Speaker 2>gaming the system right after this.

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<v Speaker 1>So Chuck, we're back. And you mentioned people gaming the system.

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<v Speaker 1>It's actually quite possible. It's been done before, and as

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<v Speaker 1>we'll see, it's apparently routinely done from everybody, from you know,

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<v Speaker 1>insidious actors, bad actors, to entire publishing houses, their entire

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<v Speaker 1>publicity department. That people have just figured out how to

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<v Speaker 1>how to, if not directly game the New York Times

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<v Speaker 1>bestseller list, to get on it, at the very least

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<v Speaker 1>tip the odds in their favor as much as they can.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And one you know, legitimate way you can tip

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<v Speaker 2>the odds in your favor is something that we did

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<v Speaker 2>and basically everybody does now. It's called pre orders. And

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<v Speaker 2>that's why you hear authors hammering home. Pre ordering is

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<v Speaker 2>really big deal, like we really love you to pre

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<v Speaker 2>order because all of those pre orders get rolled up

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<v Speaker 2>into the week one sales. So the goal of any

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<v Speaker 2>author is to just is to land on that list,

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<v Speaker 2>even if it's just that one week. And pre orders

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<v Speaker 2>are actually one reason why a lot of people are

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<v Speaker 2>sort of one week and out. We did do pre orders,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's not like anything untoward. Everyone does it, but

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<v Speaker 2>we were on for four weeks, so I felt like

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<v Speaker 2>we had some sustained sales, which made me feel pretty good.

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<v Speaker 1>That's one of the things that I turned up in

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<v Speaker 1>this research that made me feel good about what we did.

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<v Speaker 2>So yeaheah.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's one way to gain sales. Another way to

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<v Speaker 1>do it is involved in pre orders. We did giveaways

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<v Speaker 1>some people do, like speaking engagements. If you ever go

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<v Speaker 1>see an author and you get a book, like the

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<v Speaker 1>Price of Admission gets you a book. That's done to

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<v Speaker 1>game pre orders too, because if you do you know

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<v Speaker 1>x number of speaking engagements, and you know you sell

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<v Speaker 1>one hundred books at each one, those count toward that

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<v Speaker 1>first week and that can add up significantly and help

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<v Speaker 1>get you on that bestseller list too. There's other ways

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<v Speaker 1>to do it that are much more insidious and ham fisted.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Like there are companies and they're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>say this, they're not going to advertise this on their website,

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<v Speaker 2>but apparently there have been some you know, Washington Post

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<v Speaker 2>wrote about some of the stuff, and the New York

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<v Speaker 2>Times there's one company called book Highlight that people, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>publishing insiders say, here's what you can do with a

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<v Speaker 2>company like that is you can, as an author say

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<v Speaker 2>here's twenty grand I want you to go out and buy.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, however, many copies of books that that can

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<v Speaker 2>buy through various you know, independent booksellers, spread it out,

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<v Speaker 2>buy them in small, small enough chunks so it looks

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<v Speaker 2>like organic sales. It's basically book laundering really for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>And then all of a sudden you're rolled up into

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<v Speaker 2>a week one, you know, bestseller list debut, which is

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<v Speaker 2>what you're really after because just being on the list

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<v Speaker 2>means you're going to sell more books.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, and authors would hire book Highlight because the author

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<v Speaker 1>ends up owning those books and they can either give

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<v Speaker 1>them away, they can turn around and sell them if

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<v Speaker 1>they want to. But like you said, it's a business.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a business investment. It's a shady, unethical business investment

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<v Speaker 1>that tricks people into thinking your book is very popular.

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<v Speaker 1>But it's something that can be done, and it has

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<v Speaker 1>been done before. That's definitely an insidious way to kind

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<v Speaker 1>of game the system. And the reason that you said

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<v Speaker 1>they would go out and buy small amounts of books

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<v Speaker 1>at a number of different booksellers. Is because the New

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<v Speaker 1>York Times pays attention to bulk purchases, they factor that in.

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<v Speaker 1>So where if you have like a thousand purchase or

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<v Speaker 1>a thousand book purchase from like Amazon or something for

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<v Speaker 1>your book and that gets reported in your weekly sales,

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<v Speaker 1>they take that into consideration. They basically say, you're trying

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<v Speaker 1>to game the system. But rather than not include those people,

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<v Speaker 1>because again the mission of the New York Times Bestseller

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<v Speaker 1>List is to reflect what the average reader out there

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<v Speaker 1>in the United States is organically buying on their own,

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<v Speaker 1>going to a retailer online or in person and buying

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<v Speaker 1>a book, rather than disinclude those people who are gaming

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<v Speaker 1>the system by bulk purchases, they just put like a

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<v Speaker 1>little dagger, a little cross next to their name. And

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<v Speaker 1>the thing is, to that author and almost everybody who

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't follow the New York Times Bestseller List methodology, they're

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<v Speaker 1>a New York Times bestseller. And so critics are like,

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<v Speaker 1>don't even put those people on the list. You're still

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<v Speaker 1>legitimizing what they're doing even though you know they're gaming

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<v Speaker 1>the system.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I also saw though, where the dagger, which is

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<v Speaker 2>essentially an asterisk is sort of a kiss of death.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh really, Like yeah, Like if you're an author who

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<v Speaker 2>got the dagger on the list, then everybody in publishing

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<v Speaker 2>knows the deal.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh right right, yeah, yeah, if you're an author. But

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<v Speaker 1>like if you're I saw that, it's I think so,

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<v Speaker 1>Sophie Verschau said, or Vershbau said, it's most often used

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<v Speaker 1>by business authors. They don't care about the publishing world.

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<v Speaker 1>They care about their larger public facing brand.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, they said, like health and wellness books, self help books,

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<v Speaker 2>diet books, and books authored by CEOs. Those are some

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<v Speaker 2>of the bigest abusers and dagger getters that are gaming

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<v Speaker 2>the system. So if you see some dumb diet book

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<v Speaker 2>or some self help book that all of a sudden

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<v Speaker 2>is like number two on the list, and you're like,

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<v Speaker 2>how in the world is that selling more than whatever

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<v Speaker 2>the Harry Potter book is, it's probably because they've gained

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<v Speaker 2>the system and look for that dagger. That dagger's probably

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<v Speaker 2>there another few people that have been daggered recently, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is another way you can do it is Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump Junior. The RNC bought one hundred thousand dollars worth

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<v Speaker 2>of his books and week one and Jared Kushner there

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<v Speaker 2>was a pro Trump pack that bought one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>fifty eight thousand dollars worth of his books in week one,

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<v Speaker 2>So they got the dagger. Multiple CEOs, Howard Schultz of Starbucks,

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<v Speaker 2>he got a dagger. All these daggers around, and like

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<v Speaker 2>you said, I think for the ego of some of them,

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<v Speaker 2>they don't care.

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<v Speaker 1>No, they don't care. And also they don't care about

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<v Speaker 1>the publishing world. They're just stepping in to it to

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<v Speaker 1>use the publishing world to boost their larger brand, right.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's the big criticism is people who do

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<v Speaker 1>bulk purchasing. It's like the New York Times bestseller lists

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<v Speaker 1>shouldn't even include them. Yeah, because not only is it

0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.400
<v Speaker 1>it's rewarding somebody who's gaming the system, you're also leaving

0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:22.600
<v Speaker 1>off people who are actual like authors, that's their job.

0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.679
<v Speaker 1>So being on the New York Times bestseller list is

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<v Speaker 1>a really big deal for them, and being left off

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<v Speaker 1>in favor of somebody who gamed the system is that

0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:32.559
<v Speaker 1>much more bitter.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Absolutely, one thing I do know stuff you should know.

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<v Speaker 1>No dagger, no, no dagger. We did not game the system.

0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.560
<v Speaker 1>We did not you got anything else.

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<v Speaker 2>No, I mean thank you for everyone who bought books

0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.480
<v Speaker 2>and helped us accomplish that goal, because it's not like

0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:49.960
<v Speaker 2>we did it.

0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.720
<v Speaker 1>No, we definitely did not. We did not.

0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:56.920
<v Speaker 2>I didn't buy any of them. I got mine for free.

0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Did you buy any.

0:13:58.120 --> 0:13:59.800
<v Speaker 1>I've bought a couple of his gifts, but I don't

0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.280
<v Speaker 1>think that had much of an impact.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, those two pushed it over the edge. Exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>You got anything else?

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<v Speaker 2>I have nothing else, sir?

0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:09.680
<v Speaker 1>Okay, everybody short soup?

0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Is that stuff you should know? Is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.840
<v Speaker 2>For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.960
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