1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh and 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: there's Chuck and well, it's just Josh and Chuck. And 3 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: that's cool because we know what we're doing. We're professionals. 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: We've been doing this for a while, haven't we, Chuck. 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're also New York Times best selling authors. 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,360 Speaker 1: Isn't that nuts? 7 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 2: That's one of the nicer feathers in our professional caps. 8 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: I think, yeah. And I mean I knew that was 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: a big deal and I'm very proud of it and 10 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: have been since it happened. But after researching this, I'm like, Wow, 11 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: this is a really really big deal, especially considering that 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,840 Speaker 1: we were on there for four weeks. That's a big deal. 13 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: I'm pretty proud of us for it. 14 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 2: Chuck, Yeah, for sure. And the reason we mentioned that 15 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: is because not just a brag, humbly or otherwise, but 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 2: because we're talking about the New York Times best Seller List, 17 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 2: which is, you know, basically the industry standard for how 18 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 2: good you're book is doing and how sort of hot 19 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: you are as an author in a snapshot of time 20 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 2: or over time. And big thanks to HowStuffWorks dot com 21 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 2: for some of this, and Sophie Vershaw from Esquire magazine, 22 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: who wrote a great article about just sort of the 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 2: mysterious black magic that goes into compiling the New York 24 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 2: Times list, even though The New York Times will say, 25 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: it's just how how many books you're selling? 26 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, they're very They publish their methodology, so you know 27 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: kind of what's going on, but you don't really know 28 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: exactly what's going on. And there's a lot of people 29 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: in the publishing world that are very suspicious of the 30 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 1: New York Times and their bestseller list. Even though The 31 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: New York Times goes to great pains to point out 32 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: that the New York Times bestseller list desk, yeah, is 33 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: independent of the editorial desk, advertising, business culture, even the 34 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: book review desk. It's a separate department. The reason that 35 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: they point that out is because they're saying, our bestseller 36 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: list is insulated from pressure from anybody who might be like, 37 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: this publisher is a huge advertiser with the Times, why 38 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: don't you just bump this one up from eleven to 39 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: ten so it can be on the best seller list. 40 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: They're saying that they are immune to that kind of thing, 41 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,200 Speaker 1: and that their list is, like you said, it's a 42 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: numbers game and it's not curated or editorialized. That's what 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: they say about it. 44 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we'll get more into that stuff. But nuts 45 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: and bolts wise, the list has multiple categories and they 46 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: all measure different sales types. There are eleven weekly lists, 47 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 2: seven monthly lists, and they are separated fussly. You have 48 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: three categories of books, fiction, nonfiction, and children's books, and 49 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: then those are all subdivided as well. Fiction and nonfiction 50 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: are broken down into hardcover paperback, and then print and 51 00:02:55,040 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 2: digital combined, and then nonfiction's broken down into there's another 52 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: their subcategory for how to books because I guess they 53 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: just want us to live by themselves. 54 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: Well, that's our list. 55 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: Oh were we a how to? 56 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: We were advice, how to and miscellaneous. I need a 57 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: teacher that says that. 58 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 2: And then kids books are divided into middle grade hardcover 59 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: which is all one category, picture books, series, and young 60 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 2: adult hardcover. And then you got your monthly list, and 61 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 2: that's where you can find like audiobooks, graphic novels, manga 62 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 2: stuff like that. 63 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 1: Yeah. Mass market paperbacks, which I was like, what's the 64 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: difference between mass market paperbacks and regular paperbacks. Mass Market 65 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: paperbacks are printed cheaply and they're distributed like magazines, so 66 00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: they're kind of like their own separate thing that kind 67 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: you find in like a little spinner rack at the airport. 68 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: That's a mass market paperback. 69 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 2: All right, So they say, The New York Times says, 70 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:52,279 Speaker 2: all right, we have data sources. We keep them confidential 71 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: because they want to quote circumvent potential pressure on the 72 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 2: booksellers and prevent people from trying to game their way 73 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 2: onto the list. We'll talk a lot about the fact 74 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,080 Speaker 2: that still happens, probably after the break. But they keep 75 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: their data sources confidential. They say that they don't use 76 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: data aggregators and that they're just getting this data from booksellers. 77 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 2: But people in the publishing industry say, I just don't 78 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 2: see how that's possible. They've got to use aggregators, but 79 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: they say they don't. 80 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. They say that every week thousands of book retailers 81 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 1: digital and brick and mortar send them their sales for 82 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of books, and that they wait them differently, 83 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: like indie bookstores might get slightly more consideration than say, 84 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: like a Barnes and Noble. That's like the details of 85 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: the formula no one knows about. But they say that 86 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:51,880 Speaker 1: that's where they get their numbers from, that's where they 87 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: get their data from. And yeah, like you said, some 88 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: people are just like this is not possible, or something 89 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: called reader link, there's something called book scam. These are 90 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: huge aggregate tools that there's no way the New York 91 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: Bestseller List is just completely ignoring those. 92 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean they say they don't. So it's 93 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: kind of one of those things where they won't reveal 94 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 2: all their methodology. I mean they print their methodology, but 95 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: like they don't tell you. I saw a liken to, 96 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 2: like we kind of know what the formula for coke is, 97 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: but not the exact recipe. Yeah, and that's basically what's 98 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 2: going on, because there are plenty of instances where people 99 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 2: can point to raw sales data and say, well, hey, 100 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 2: the number eight book sold more books than the number 101 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: four book, how can that be? And the New York 102 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 2: Times will say sales data is just one factor and 103 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 2: the rest is none. Yah. 104 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like an impenetrable fortress. And they're really really 105 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: good on leaks, Like you don't leave the New York 106 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:54,080 Speaker 1: Times bestseller desk, and if you do, you probably turn 107 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: up dead within a week or two in your apartment's. 108 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: In a body bag? 109 00:05:59,160 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: All right? 110 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: Should we take a break? 111 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:00,840 Speaker 1: Sure? 112 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: All right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about 113 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 2: gaming the system right after this. 114 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: So Chuck, we're back. And you mentioned people gaming the system. 115 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,479 Speaker 1: It's actually quite possible. It's been done before, and as 116 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: we'll see, it's apparently routinely done from everybody, from you know, 117 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: insidious actors, bad actors, to entire publishing houses, their entire 118 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: publicity department. That people have just figured out how to 119 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: how to, if not directly game the New York Times 120 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: bestseller list, to get on it, at the very least 121 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 1: tip the odds in their favor as much as they can. 122 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, And one you know, legitimate way you can tip 123 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: the odds in your favor is something that we did 124 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 2: and basically everybody does now. It's called pre orders. And 125 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: that's why you hear authors hammering home. Pre ordering is 126 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 2: really big deal, like we really love you to pre 127 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: order because all of those pre orders get rolled up 128 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: into the week one sales. So the goal of any 129 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 2: author is to just is to land on that list, 130 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: even if it's just that one week. And pre orders 131 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: are actually one reason why a lot of people are 132 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 2: sort of one week and out. We did do pre orders, 133 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: so it's not like anything untoward. Everyone does it, but 134 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 2: we were on for four weeks, so I felt like 135 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: we had some sustained sales, which made me feel pretty good. 136 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: That's one of the things that I turned up in 137 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: this research that made me feel good about what we did. 138 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: So yeaheah. 139 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: So that's one way to gain sales. Another way to 140 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: do it is involved in pre orders. We did giveaways 141 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: some people do, like speaking engagements. If you ever go 142 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: see an author and you get a book, like the 143 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: Price of Admission gets you a book. That's done to 144 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: game pre orders too, because if you do you know 145 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: x number of speaking engagements, and you know you sell 146 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: one hundred books at each one, those count toward that 147 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: first week and that can add up significantly and help 148 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: get you on that bestseller list too. There's other ways 149 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: to do it that are much more insidious and ham fisted. 150 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like there are companies and they're not going to 151 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:43,319 Speaker 2: say this, they're not going to advertise this on their website, 152 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 2: but apparently there have been some you know, Washington Post 153 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 2: wrote about some of the stuff, and the New York 154 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: Times there's one company called book Highlight that people, you know, 155 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: publishing insiders say, here's what you can do with a 156 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 2: company like that is you can, as an author say 157 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 2: here's twenty grand I want you to go out and buy. 158 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 2: You know, however, many copies of books that that can 159 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: buy through various you know, independent booksellers, spread it out, 160 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: buy them in small, small enough chunks so it looks 161 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 2: like organic sales. It's basically book laundering really for sure. 162 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden you're rolled up into 163 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 2: a week one, you know, bestseller list debut, which is 164 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 2: what you're really after because just being on the list 165 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: means you're going to sell more books. 166 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: Right, and authors would hire book Highlight because the author 167 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 1: ends up owning those books and they can either give 168 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 1: them away, they can turn around and sell them if 169 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: they want to. But like you said, it's a business. 170 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 1: It's a business investment. It's a shady, unethical business investment 171 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: that tricks people into thinking your book is very popular. 172 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: But it's something that can be done, and it has 173 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: been done before. That's definitely an insidious way to kind 174 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: of game the system. And the reason that you said 175 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,679 Speaker 1: they would go out and buy small amounts of books 176 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 1: at a number of different booksellers. Is because the New 177 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: York Times pays attention to bulk purchases, they factor that in. 178 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,839 Speaker 1: So where if you have like a thousand purchase or 179 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: a thousand book purchase from like Amazon or something for 180 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: your book and that gets reported in your weekly sales, 181 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: they take that into consideration. They basically say, you're trying 182 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: to game the system. But rather than not include those people, 183 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: because again the mission of the New York Times Bestseller 184 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: List is to reflect what the average reader out there 185 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: in the United States is organically buying on their own, 186 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: going to a retailer online or in person and buying 187 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 1: a book, rather than disinclude those people who are gaming 188 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: the system by bulk purchases, they just put like a 189 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: little dagger, a little cross next to their name. And 190 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: the thing is, to that author and almost everybody who 191 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: doesn't follow the New York Times Bestseller List methodology, they're 192 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 1: a New York Times bestseller. And so critics are like, 193 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: don't even put those people on the list. You're still 194 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: legitimizing what they're doing even though you know they're gaming 195 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 1: the system. 196 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. I also saw though, where the dagger, which is 197 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: essentially an asterisk is sort of a kiss of death. 198 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: Oh really, Like yeah, Like if you're an author who 199 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 2: got the dagger on the list, then everybody in publishing 200 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 2: knows the deal. 201 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: Oh right right, yeah, yeah, if you're an author. But 202 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: like if you're I saw that, it's I think so, 203 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: Sophie Verschau said, or Vershbau said, it's most often used 204 00:11:44,480 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: by business authors. They don't care about the publishing world. 205 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: They care about their larger public facing brand. 206 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, they said, like health and wellness books, self help books, 207 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: diet books, and books authored by CEOs. Those are some 208 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: of the bigest abusers and dagger getters that are gaming 209 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 2: the system. So if you see some dumb diet book 210 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: or some self help book that all of a sudden 211 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: is like number two on the list, and you're like, 212 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 2: how in the world is that selling more than whatever 213 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 2: the Harry Potter book is, it's probably because they've gained 214 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: the system and look for that dagger. That dagger's probably 215 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: there another few people that have been daggered recently, and 216 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 2: this is another way you can do it is Donald 217 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: Trump Junior. The RNC bought one hundred thousand dollars worth 218 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 2: of his books and week one and Jared Kushner there 219 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 2: was a pro Trump pack that bought one hundred and 220 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: fifty eight thousand dollars worth of his books in week one, 221 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: So they got the dagger. Multiple CEOs, Howard Schultz of Starbucks, 222 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 2: he got a dagger. All these daggers around, and like 223 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 2: you said, I think for the ego of some of them, 224 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: they don't care. 225 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 1: No, they don't care. And also they don't care about 226 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: the publishing world. They're just stepping in to it to 227 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: use the publishing world to boost their larger brand, right. 228 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: And so that's the big criticism is people who do 229 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: bulk purchasing. It's like the New York Times bestseller lists 230 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: shouldn't even include them. Yeah, because not only is it 231 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: it's rewarding somebody who's gaming the system, you're also leaving 232 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 1: off people who are actual like authors, that's their job. 233 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:25,679 Speaker 1: So being on the New York Times bestseller list is 234 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:27,839 Speaker 1: a really big deal for them, and being left off 235 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: in favor of somebody who gamed the system is that 236 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: much more bitter. 237 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, one thing I do know stuff you should know. 238 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: No dagger, no, no dagger. We did not game the system. 239 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,560 Speaker 1: We did not you got anything else. 240 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 2: No, I mean thank you for everyone who bought books 241 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 2: and helped us accomplish that goal, because it's not like 242 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 2: we did it. 243 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: No, we definitely did not. We did not. 244 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: I didn't buy any of them. I got mine for free. 245 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 2: Did you buy any. 246 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: I've bought a couple of his gifts, but I don't 247 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: think that had much of an impact. 248 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, those two pushed it over the edge. Exactly. 249 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 1: You got anything else? 250 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: I have nothing else, sir? 251 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 1: Okay, everybody short soup? 252 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 2: Is that stuff you should know? Is a production of iHeartRadio. 253 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 2: For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 254 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.