1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:23,796 Speaker 1: Pushing sunny and older. My dear departed father took me 2 00:00:23,796 --> 00:00:27,476 Speaker 1: to the polls every time, every time that he cast 3 00:00:27,596 --> 00:00:30,196 Speaker 1: a vote. It was like a man son thing, you know. 4 00:00:30,596 --> 00:00:33,556 Speaker 1: And so I've had ingrained in me the notion that 5 00:00:33,796 --> 00:00:37,516 Speaker 1: the full measure of your citizenship is the ability to 6 00:00:37,556 --> 00:00:47,116 Speaker 1: participate in our democracy. I'm Khalil Jibra Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. 7 00:00:47,276 --> 00:00:50,396 Speaker 1: We're two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a 8 00:00:50,476 --> 00:00:53,396 Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of 9 00:00:53,436 --> 00:00:56,516 Speaker 1: my best friends are. Some of my best friends are 10 00:00:56,596 --> 00:00:59,116 Speaker 1: dot dot dot and this show we wrestle with the 11 00:00:59,236 --> 00:01:04,356 Speaker 1: challenges and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. 12 00:01:04,476 --> 00:01:07,596 Speaker 1: A man and ain't that the truth? Our democracy is 13 00:01:07,716 --> 00:01:11,356 Speaker 1: on life support. And we're gonna talk to the nation's 14 00:01:11,476 --> 00:01:17,636 Speaker 1: leading democracy trauma surgeon, Eric Holder, the former US Attorney General, 15 00:01:17,836 --> 00:01:20,916 Speaker 1: is with us to help us make sense of how 16 00:01:21,276 --> 00:01:26,876 Speaker 1: deep this problem is and what to do about it. 17 00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:34,396 Speaker 1: We're going to talk to him about his life leading 18 00:01:34,476 --> 00:01:37,756 Speaker 1: up to his career in the Obama administration and everything 19 00:01:37,756 --> 00:01:40,636 Speaker 1: he's done since YEP, and all of the work that 20 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:44,996 Speaker 1: he's done after leaving office to strengthen our democracy. A 21 00:01:45,036 --> 00:01:47,196 Speaker 1: lot of that work has paid off in the mid 22 00:01:47,316 --> 00:01:49,156 Speaker 1: term election, so we're going to learn a lot more 23 00:01:49,196 --> 00:01:52,356 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, he has been protecting voting rights, he's 24 00:01:52,356 --> 00:01:55,556 Speaker 1: been fighting for fair elections, he has been working to 25 00:01:55,676 --> 00:01:58,636 Speaker 1: uphold our democracy. I am really looking forward to this conversation. 26 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:10,356 Speaker 1: Let's do it. So first, what should we call you? 27 00:02:10,396 --> 00:02:12,476 Speaker 1: Should we call you an attorney general holder? Can we 28 00:02:12,516 --> 00:02:14,996 Speaker 1: call you Eric? What do you prefer? Eric is fine? 29 00:02:15,036 --> 00:02:16,876 Speaker 1: I mean I've been called a lot worse than next, 30 00:02:16,916 --> 00:02:20,796 Speaker 1: trust me. Yeah, all right, we absolutely love that. I've 31 00:02:20,836 --> 00:02:26,516 Speaker 1: actually heard another nickname of yours. So I don't I 32 00:02:26,556 --> 00:02:30,196 Speaker 1: don't know if you remember, but we were in a 33 00:02:30,276 --> 00:02:33,596 Speaker 1: meeting trying to figure out how to sort of prepare 34 00:02:33,636 --> 00:02:35,836 Speaker 1: for the twenty sixteen election. And it was one of 35 00:02:35,876 --> 00:02:38,276 Speaker 1: these closed door meetings where none of us are supposed 36 00:02:38,276 --> 00:02:41,756 Speaker 1: to talk about what happened in the meeting, but there 37 00:02:41,916 --> 00:02:45,556 Speaker 1: was you know, Harry Bellafonte was there, and Reverend Barber 38 00:02:45,676 --> 00:02:47,916 Speaker 1: joined in remotely, and there are a whole bunch of 39 00:02:48,036 --> 00:02:50,836 Speaker 1: other folks in the room, and at some point someone 40 00:02:50,916 --> 00:02:54,076 Speaker 1: in the room was talking about the Democratic get out 41 00:02:54,116 --> 00:02:58,036 Speaker 1: the vote machine and really kind of frustrated by how 42 00:02:58,076 --> 00:03:00,436 Speaker 1: it just shows up, you know, for midterms, it shows 43 00:03:00,516 --> 00:03:03,036 Speaker 1: up for the presidential race. But everyone packs up there 44 00:03:03,036 --> 00:03:07,356 Speaker 1: consulting briefcases and moves on. And the question was directed 45 00:03:07,396 --> 00:03:11,316 Speaker 1: to you and said, hey, you know you're like the 46 00:03:11,396 --> 00:03:15,116 Speaker 1: highest ranking official in this room from the past administration. 47 00:03:15,756 --> 00:03:18,876 Speaker 1: You know, you're somebody who can help us understand why 48 00:03:18,956 --> 00:03:21,836 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party won't change. And you said, hey, man, 49 00:03:21,916 --> 00:03:27,116 Speaker 1: I'm just little Ricky from one hundred forty fifth Street. Okay, 50 00:03:27,276 --> 00:03:29,836 Speaker 1: you and your great memory Khalil, Yes, that would be 51 00:03:29,916 --> 00:03:39,156 Speaker 1: like little older from one hundred first Street, two places, 52 00:03:39,236 --> 00:03:42,916 Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, so I and I love the moment 53 00:03:43,036 --> 00:03:48,036 Speaker 1: when when mister Bellafonte, mister b leaned over who was 54 00:03:48,036 --> 00:03:50,356 Speaker 1: sitting next to Year, and he said, well you were 55 00:03:50,396 --> 00:03:53,556 Speaker 1: the man, as if to remind you that you did 56 00:03:53,596 --> 00:03:56,076 Speaker 1: actually have some power in that moment. You weren't just 57 00:03:56,156 --> 00:03:58,836 Speaker 1: little Ricky, so we won't call you a little Rickie. 58 00:03:58,836 --> 00:04:01,316 Speaker 1: But Eric works. Yeah, little Ricky grew up to be 59 00:04:01,516 --> 00:04:04,276 Speaker 1: Eric Holder, and uh, little Rickie that you know, that's fine, 60 00:04:04,356 --> 00:04:07,876 Speaker 1: Ricky Holder, that that's that's cool. But Eric will worked 61 00:04:07,876 --> 00:04:10,316 Speaker 1: just fine. Okay, all right, And we actually had a 62 00:04:10,436 --> 00:04:13,156 Speaker 1: question out of that, who was little Ricky? Meaning like 63 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:15,596 Speaker 1: we want to know who you were as a kid 64 00:04:15,756 --> 00:04:18,836 Speaker 1: growing up in Queens. Well, I tell you it was interesting. 65 00:04:18,876 --> 00:04:21,156 Speaker 1: I was a kid who just grew up in what 66 00:04:21,436 --> 00:04:24,756 Speaker 1: was an immigrant neighborhood. Although the immigrants at that point 67 00:04:24,756 --> 00:04:27,436 Speaker 1: were folks who had moved up from the south to 68 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 1: the north. It was an all black neighborhood. It's actually 69 00:04:30,916 --> 00:04:34,276 Speaker 1: a neighborhood that was in transition. When I was extremely young, 70 00:04:34,316 --> 00:04:37,756 Speaker 1: Italian folks were moving out, Black Americans were moving in. 71 00:04:38,196 --> 00:04:41,156 Speaker 1: East Elmhurst in Queens is one of the most stable 72 00:04:41,436 --> 00:04:44,516 Speaker 1: neighborhoods in the city. I once read that if you 73 00:04:44,516 --> 00:04:46,316 Speaker 1: look at all the zip codes, we're one, one, three, 74 00:04:46,396 --> 00:04:48,636 Speaker 1: six nine. It's the place we have the least amount 75 00:04:48,636 --> 00:04:51,276 Speaker 1: of movement. And it was also a neighborhood that was 76 00:04:51,716 --> 00:04:55,276 Speaker 1: peopled with, you know, really with celebrities. It was a 77 00:04:55,396 --> 00:04:59,316 Speaker 1: real hotbed of black achievement. But it was interesting also 78 00:04:59,396 --> 00:05:02,036 Speaker 1: because up until fourth grade I was at PS one 79 00:05:02,196 --> 00:05:05,036 Speaker 1: twenty seven, all black school, and then as part of 80 00:05:05,076 --> 00:05:08,516 Speaker 1: some I guess was called IGC program Intellectually Gifted Children, 81 00:05:08,756 --> 00:05:12,756 Speaker 1: they me to PS one forty eight and that was 82 00:05:12,796 --> 00:05:16,476 Speaker 1: a predominantly Jewish school and so I had little Ricky Holder, 83 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:20,356 Speaker 1: my feet in two worlds, was predominantly Jewish in a 84 00:05:20,356 --> 00:05:23,676 Speaker 1: world that was predominantly African American. But I think it 85 00:05:23,756 --> 00:05:26,436 Speaker 1: was in some ways something that prepared me for the 86 00:05:26,516 --> 00:05:28,356 Speaker 1: duality that I was going to have to face as 87 00:05:28,356 --> 00:05:31,236 Speaker 1: an adult. Wow. So, so what you're saying is your 88 00:05:31,516 --> 00:05:34,916 Speaker 1: coming of age was like being encapsulated in our podcast 89 00:05:35,436 --> 00:05:37,716 Speaker 1: a black guy and a Jewish guy trying to make 90 00:05:37,756 --> 00:05:41,756 Speaker 1: sense of race in America. That's amazing. That's amazing. If 91 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:44,556 Speaker 1: you guys have any problems interacting with one another, I 92 00:05:44,596 --> 00:05:47,636 Speaker 1: can be the interpreter here to explain what's happening from 93 00:05:47,636 --> 00:05:49,916 Speaker 1: the Jewish perspective as well as from the African American. 94 00:05:50,556 --> 00:05:52,556 Speaker 1: This might be a long interview, we might be on 95 00:05:52,636 --> 00:05:56,676 Speaker 1: all day. Well, I wanted to follow up on all 96 00:05:57,076 --> 00:06:00,036 Speaker 1: that greatest hits of black excellence. I mean, so just 97 00:06:00,116 --> 00:06:02,516 Speaker 1: take us back just a little bit to your own 98 00:06:02,556 --> 00:06:06,476 Speaker 1: consciousness being immersed in that neighborhood at the time. Well, 99 00:06:06,476 --> 00:06:08,596 Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting, Khalil. I mean I saw a 100 00:06:08,716 --> 00:06:14,356 Speaker 1: full range of accomplished, you know, striving black men, and 101 00:06:14,516 --> 00:06:18,236 Speaker 1: that went from everybody from mister Gachet, who was my 102 00:06:18,316 --> 00:06:20,916 Speaker 1: little league coach and who was a custodian for a 103 00:06:20,996 --> 00:06:25,156 Speaker 1: building in Manhattan. Also, doctor Scott two blocks over was 104 00:06:25,236 --> 00:06:28,436 Speaker 1: a radiologist, so there was mister Archer down the block 105 00:06:28,516 --> 00:06:30,956 Speaker 1: was a lawyer. I mean, you were all packed together, 106 00:06:31,076 --> 00:06:34,516 Speaker 1: and I saw the full panoply of um, you know, 107 00:06:34,636 --> 00:06:37,636 Speaker 1: Black men and to a lesser extent, African American women, 108 00:06:37,676 --> 00:06:39,916 Speaker 1: because a lot of them were, you know, working in 109 00:06:39,956 --> 00:06:43,996 Speaker 1: the home, but a full range of black I guess 110 00:06:44,076 --> 00:06:48,796 Speaker 1: involvement activity. And the thing was, no matter what your station, 111 00:06:48,996 --> 00:06:52,356 Speaker 1: for lack of a better term, was everybody had pride 112 00:06:52,796 --> 00:06:56,276 Speaker 1: in themselves. Everybody thought that they were working to make 113 00:06:56,276 --> 00:06:59,916 Speaker 1: it better for the next generation. We were cognizant of 114 00:06:59,956 --> 00:07:02,796 Speaker 1: the fact that, you know, Louis Armstrong was around the block, 115 00:07:02,836 --> 00:07:04,956 Speaker 1: that Malcolm X was around the block, that Willie Mays 116 00:07:05,036 --> 00:07:07,916 Speaker 1: was you know, pretty close by. But it wasn't as 117 00:07:07,996 --> 00:07:10,596 Speaker 1: if we were a start ruck. They were just part 118 00:07:10,676 --> 00:07:13,836 Speaker 1: of the neighborhood. I mean, one interesting story, I'm at 119 00:07:14,076 --> 00:07:16,756 Speaker 1: a candy store run by a Jewish guy twenty third 120 00:07:16,796 --> 00:07:19,396 Speaker 1: Avenue in ninety seven sight guy named Mo and I'm 121 00:07:19,396 --> 00:07:23,476 Speaker 1: getting through candy whatever. My brother comes flying in and says, Cactus. 122 00:07:23,516 --> 00:07:25,756 Speaker 1: Clayton is in front of Malcolm X's house. Now this 123 00:07:25,836 --> 00:07:29,636 Speaker 1: is after the first Listen fight and before he formally 124 00:07:29,676 --> 00:07:32,436 Speaker 1: becomes Muhammad Ali. All right, So I'm like, yeah, right, 125 00:07:32,596 --> 00:07:34,516 Speaker 1: and he said, no, it's true, it's true. So I 126 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 1: walked down there. Everybody is running. I walked down and 127 00:07:36,876 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 1: then in fact he's out there in front of Malcolm 128 00:07:39,436 --> 00:07:43,756 Speaker 1: X's house and he's signing autographs. And I skinny little, 129 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:47,076 Speaker 1: you know, I guess maybe twelve year old holder and 130 00:07:47,116 --> 00:07:48,996 Speaker 1: always kind of a bit of a smart ass. I 131 00:07:49,076 --> 00:07:51,076 Speaker 1: said to him if people might not remember in the 132 00:07:51,116 --> 00:07:53,476 Speaker 1: way in before the Liston fight, his blood pressure was 133 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:56,556 Speaker 1: really high. People said he was scared, and so I said, hey, 134 00:07:56,796 --> 00:07:59,676 Speaker 1: were you scared? Before the fight? And this is he 135 00:07:59,796 --> 00:08:02,156 Speaker 1: the largest human being I've ever seen. So he's like 136 00:08:02,236 --> 00:08:04,796 Speaker 1: sixteen sixty three. I'm like five something or of it. 137 00:08:04,876 --> 00:08:08,196 Speaker 1: And he balls up his fist and very slowly extends 138 00:08:08,236 --> 00:08:10,356 Speaker 1: it and puts it in my face and says, what 139 00:08:10,396 --> 00:08:15,876 Speaker 1: do you think? Oh wow? I said, no, you know, 140 00:08:16,156 --> 00:08:19,516 Speaker 1: And he signed the autograph for me on a I 141 00:08:19,556 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 1: had a bag and I pulled a piece of the 142 00:08:21,116 --> 00:08:23,596 Speaker 1: bag and he signed cash his clay on the bag. 143 00:08:23,756 --> 00:08:26,356 Speaker 1: Kept it forever, and my mother, in one of her 144 00:08:26,556 --> 00:08:31,636 Speaker 1: periodic cleanings throughout my autograph book. So I think Pill 145 00:08:31,716 --> 00:08:34,236 Speaker 1: has his, but I don't have mine. You don't need 146 00:08:34,236 --> 00:08:37,036 Speaker 1: an autograph, you have this on the podcast. That's that's forever. 147 00:08:37,196 --> 00:08:40,116 Speaker 1: Here we go, we go. So so Eric, one more 148 00:08:40,156 --> 00:08:42,956 Speaker 1: follow up about this, which is so much of your 149 00:08:42,956 --> 00:08:46,356 Speaker 1: work is about civil rights and so how does all 150 00:08:46,396 --> 00:08:48,676 Speaker 1: of this growing up and growing up in the nineteen 151 00:08:48,756 --> 00:08:52,236 Speaker 1: sixties lead you to civil rights work. Well, you know, 152 00:08:52,316 --> 00:08:55,996 Speaker 1: it's interesting because I always saw possibilities, you know, um 153 00:08:56,236 --> 00:08:59,676 Speaker 1: growing up in East Elmhurst again, that range of people 154 00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:01,996 Speaker 1: doing a variety of things, all with a great deal 155 00:09:02,076 --> 00:09:05,396 Speaker 1: of pride. But also I'm growing up in the sixties 156 00:09:05,396 --> 00:09:10,476 Speaker 1: where African countries are gaining their independence. My folks is 157 00:09:10,556 --> 00:09:13,676 Speaker 1: from Barbados. Caribbean countries were gaining their independence, and the 158 00:09:13,716 --> 00:09:16,836 Speaker 1: civil rights movement is in, you know, in full bloom. 159 00:09:16,876 --> 00:09:20,076 Speaker 1: And so as a Northerner, I'm watching to see what's 160 00:09:20,116 --> 00:09:23,356 Speaker 1: going on in Birmingham. My future sister in law is 161 00:09:23,396 --> 00:09:26,556 Speaker 1: integrating the University of Alabama with the George Wallace standing 162 00:09:26,596 --> 00:09:29,516 Speaker 1: the schoolhouse door, and so all of this stuff is 163 00:09:29,556 --> 00:09:34,476 Speaker 1: brewing in me, and this notion of black pride, black 164 00:09:34,516 --> 00:09:38,916 Speaker 1: accomplishment the notion of independence, the notion of throwing off 165 00:09:38,956 --> 00:09:42,476 Speaker 1: that which was old and creating something new. All that 166 00:09:42,636 --> 00:09:44,876 Speaker 1: is in me and has stayed with me, you know 167 00:09:44,956 --> 00:09:46,836 Speaker 1: ever since. You know, they say, as you get older, 168 00:09:46,876 --> 00:09:49,716 Speaker 1: you're supposed to get I guess more conservative. I'm seventy 169 00:09:49,716 --> 00:09:54,796 Speaker 1: one now, and I suspect I'm more progressive, liberal, radical 170 00:09:54,956 --> 00:09:57,876 Speaker 1: now than I was when I was, you know, fifteen. Oh, 171 00:09:58,276 --> 00:10:01,476 Speaker 1: you're on the right show. So you have a new 172 00:10:01,516 --> 00:10:06,076 Speaker 1: book out called Our Unfinished March, and we've read your book, 173 00:10:06,116 --> 00:10:07,916 Speaker 1: and one of the things that you tell in this 174 00:10:07,956 --> 00:10:10,876 Speaker 1: book is how, in the midst of the Civil rights movement, 175 00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:13,756 Speaker 1: at its height, you are watching John Lewis cross the 176 00:10:13,876 --> 00:10:16,996 Speaker 1: Edmund Pettis Bridge in nineteen sixty five. Tell us about 177 00:10:16,996 --> 00:10:19,636 Speaker 1: that moment and why it became sort of a turning 178 00:10:19,636 --> 00:10:22,036 Speaker 1: point in your own life story. You know, I don't 179 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:23,756 Speaker 1: see it live because I'm watching from the black and 180 00:10:23,796 --> 00:10:25,996 Speaker 1: white TV in the basement in Queens, but I see 181 00:10:26,036 --> 00:10:28,716 Speaker 1: the newsreels of your like fourteen at this point, Yeah, 182 00:10:28,756 --> 00:10:31,996 Speaker 1: I'm fourteen. Can I see the newsreels of him crossing 183 00:10:32,036 --> 00:10:35,436 Speaker 1: the Edmund Pettis Bridge the March four you know, from 184 00:10:35,436 --> 00:10:38,356 Speaker 1: Selma to Montgomery for voting rights. People tend to forget 185 00:10:38,436 --> 00:10:40,756 Speaker 1: that it was from voting rights. And then to see 186 00:10:40,836 --> 00:10:45,156 Speaker 1: these Alabama state troopers attack these people, and to see 187 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:47,636 Speaker 1: this guy who left an impression to me from the 188 00:10:47,716 --> 00:10:50,356 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty three March on Washington. I remember thinking he 189 00:10:50,396 --> 00:10:52,116 Speaker 1: was kind of young, you know. You know, I don't 190 00:10:52,156 --> 00:10:54,156 Speaker 1: remember you remember the speech as much as I remember. 191 00:10:54,276 --> 00:10:56,476 Speaker 1: He just seemed seemed young. Of all the speakers who 192 00:10:56,476 --> 00:10:59,796 Speaker 1: are remember watching again on television, And to see him 193 00:10:59,796 --> 00:11:03,076 Speaker 1: getting beaten, that for me was kind of like, wait 194 00:11:03,116 --> 00:11:05,596 Speaker 1: a minute, What's what's going on here? These guys are 195 00:11:05,676 --> 00:11:09,276 Speaker 1: marching for a right that I know we have up 196 00:11:09,316 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: here in the North. And to see these folks marching 197 00:11:13,116 --> 00:11:15,116 Speaker 1: to do that which we do as a matter of 198 00:11:15,236 --> 00:11:18,476 Speaker 1: routine and then getting beaten for it. That made me 199 00:11:18,676 --> 00:11:21,876 Speaker 1: understand in a way that perhaps I had not before, 200 00:11:22,356 --> 00:11:26,876 Speaker 1: that there was a dual existence for African Americans in 201 00:11:26,956 --> 00:11:29,796 Speaker 1: the United States. But the John Lewis thing, for some reason, 202 00:11:29,916 --> 00:11:32,676 Speaker 1: really melded in my mind. Welded into my mind the 203 00:11:32,916 --> 00:11:36,236 Speaker 1: notion that there was a battle to be had, there 204 00:11:36,276 --> 00:11:39,356 Speaker 1: was a fight to be won, and specifically over voting rights. 205 00:11:39,356 --> 00:11:41,796 Speaker 1: Like where you conscious that that was where the fight 206 00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:44,916 Speaker 1: was being had. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's something that 207 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:47,436 Speaker 1: I knew at the time, you know, I mean, you know, 208 00:11:47,476 --> 00:11:50,036 Speaker 1: sixty four you have Cheney, Schwarner and Goodman dying, and 209 00:11:50,076 --> 00:11:52,756 Speaker 1: I knew, for whatever reason that they were down there 210 00:11:52,796 --> 00:11:56,196 Speaker 1: to register people to vote. John Lewis is marching to 211 00:11:56,236 --> 00:11:59,116 Speaker 1: get people to vote. And so voting is something that 212 00:11:59,236 --> 00:12:02,596 Speaker 1: really gets seared into my consciousness and has always has 213 00:12:02,676 --> 00:12:06,276 Speaker 1: really kind of been a focal point of my professional life. 214 00:12:06,556 --> 00:12:09,636 Speaker 1: And you go into the law with that in mind, 215 00:12:09,676 --> 00:12:12,836 Speaker 1: that that's how you want to use to use the 216 00:12:12,916 --> 00:12:15,436 Speaker 1: law for these fights. So no, I gotta tell the 217 00:12:15,476 --> 00:12:18,236 Speaker 1: truth here. I mean, I tried to craft a Black 218 00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:21,676 Speaker 1: studies you know major that did not exist at Columbia. 219 00:12:21,756 --> 00:12:23,996 Speaker 1: So I took all the courses I could and came 220 00:12:24,076 --> 00:12:26,716 Speaker 1: up with this thing and said that looks like American history. 221 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:28,956 Speaker 1: So you're an American history major. And I get out 222 00:12:28,996 --> 00:12:30,236 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, all right, now what do I do? 223 00:12:30,276 --> 00:12:32,436 Speaker 1: And people say, well, you could teach, And I was thinking, boy, 224 00:12:32,476 --> 00:12:34,436 Speaker 1: I don't want to foist myself on the you know, 225 00:12:34,836 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 1: this next generation of Americans that would be irresponsible. Let's 226 00:12:37,956 --> 00:12:40,236 Speaker 1: not do that. And somebody said well, you know, if 227 00:12:40,236 --> 00:12:42,196 Speaker 1: you go to law school, you can do a lot 228 00:12:42,236 --> 00:12:45,036 Speaker 1: with a legal degree. So I thought of law schools 229 00:12:45,076 --> 00:12:47,876 Speaker 1: kind of the haven for the undecided. And so I 230 00:12:47,956 --> 00:12:52,796 Speaker 1: go to law school and something clicked first year criminal 231 00:12:52,876 --> 00:12:56,236 Speaker 1: law at a professor named Telford Taylor, who had been 232 00:12:56,236 --> 00:13:00,476 Speaker 1: a Nuremberg prosecutor, and something about him and about the 233 00:13:00,476 --> 00:13:01,916 Speaker 1: way he taught the course and the way he talked 234 00:13:01,916 --> 00:13:03,876 Speaker 1: about the law made me and maybe decide that I 235 00:13:03,916 --> 00:13:08,636 Speaker 1: wanted to be a lawyer and to use the law 236 00:13:08,876 --> 00:13:10,956 Speaker 1: and my skill as a lawyer to kind of help 237 00:13:11,036 --> 00:13:16,076 Speaker 1: advance the cause. Kind of a diffuse notion of advancing 238 00:13:16,116 --> 00:13:19,036 Speaker 1: the cause. I mean, as a freshman at Columbia, we 239 00:13:19,036 --> 00:13:22,676 Speaker 1: took over the Naval ROTC office and converted it into 240 00:13:22,916 --> 00:13:25,996 Speaker 1: what is still there, the Malcolm X Lounge, a place 241 00:13:26,036 --> 00:13:28,996 Speaker 1: where black students could gather. And so I was a 242 00:13:28,996 --> 00:13:31,196 Speaker 1: bit of an activist, and I thought that I could 243 00:13:32,036 --> 00:13:35,676 Speaker 1: use my legal skills in some kind of undefined way 244 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:39,196 Speaker 1: to further the cause. So Eric, you go on to 245 00:13:39,236 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 1: become the first black US attorney for the District of 246 00:13:41,916 --> 00:13:44,956 Speaker 1: Columbia and then go on to be the nation's first 247 00:13:44,996 --> 00:13:48,836 Speaker 1: black Attorney General under President Obama and We'll talk more 248 00:13:48,876 --> 00:13:51,556 Speaker 1: about that legacy after the break, But there was a 249 00:13:51,556 --> 00:13:53,716 Speaker 1: moment when your career was going to be the basis 250 00:13:53,796 --> 00:13:56,636 Speaker 1: for a TV show. One of our actual best friends 251 00:13:56,676 --> 00:13:59,796 Speaker 1: is Sasha Penn, the screenwriter whom you were working with 252 00:13:59,916 --> 00:14:02,756 Speaker 1: on a TV show based on your career and life. 253 00:14:03,436 --> 00:14:06,156 Speaker 1: What is a TV show about the first black attorney general? 254 00:14:06,236 --> 00:14:08,636 Speaker 1: What is it about? Well, you know, it's interesting. I mean, 255 00:14:08,676 --> 00:14:13,116 Speaker 1: Sasha is an unbelievably talented writer, and it was a 256 00:14:13,116 --> 00:14:14,876 Speaker 1: great show. It was going to be called Main Justice, 257 00:14:14,876 --> 00:14:18,116 Speaker 1: and it was about this first African American ag attorney general, 258 00:14:18,556 --> 00:14:21,116 Speaker 1: and we were going to explore, you know, what it 259 00:14:21,156 --> 00:14:24,516 Speaker 1: meant to be that person and you know, trying to 260 00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:29,036 Speaker 1: be black and to be a person consistent with all 261 00:14:29,156 --> 00:14:31,876 Speaker 1: that helped define you well at the same time being 262 00:14:31,876 --> 00:14:35,636 Speaker 1: the chief law enforcement officer of the country and to 263 00:14:35,796 --> 00:14:38,516 Speaker 1: try to understand that they were political pressures that you 264 00:14:38,596 --> 00:14:41,556 Speaker 1: had to, you know, make some difficult choices in a 265 00:14:41,596 --> 00:14:43,276 Speaker 1: lot of ways, just kind of you know, based on 266 00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:46,956 Speaker 1: what my experience was as the first black um AG. 267 00:14:47,676 --> 00:14:50,716 Speaker 1: It went to pilot, scored pretty well, and for whatever reason, 268 00:14:50,796 --> 00:14:52,796 Speaker 1: CBS decided not to put it on there. So I've 269 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:56,676 Speaker 1: got this like CD or DVD of this break, so 270 00:14:57,476 --> 00:14:59,796 Speaker 1: it ought to be on TV. Will we will get 271 00:15:00,076 --> 00:15:02,636 Speaker 1: HBO or something like that. But um, they couldn't. They 272 00:15:02,636 --> 00:15:05,796 Speaker 1: couldn't handle the truth. They weren't ready for the handle 273 00:15:05,836 --> 00:15:08,196 Speaker 1: were ready for you. Well, we are going to take 274 00:15:08,196 --> 00:15:11,036 Speaker 1: a break now and when we come back, we are 275 00:15:11,036 --> 00:15:12,996 Speaker 1: going to talk to you about what you've been up 276 00:15:12,996 --> 00:15:16,276 Speaker 1: to since you've left that incredible office as the first 277 00:15:16,436 --> 00:15:36,116 Speaker 1: black Attorney General for the United States. Well, Eric has 278 00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:40,556 Speaker 1: been great, really hearing the trajectory going from Elmhurst Queen's 279 00:15:40,796 --> 00:15:44,796 Speaker 1: and having a neighbor as Malcolm X and being inspired 280 00:15:44,836 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 1: by so many people of the civil rights generation, and 281 00:15:48,036 --> 00:15:51,036 Speaker 1: now you yourself are making history. You have been working 282 00:15:52,116 --> 00:15:55,956 Speaker 1: against the tide of history in this moment to deal 283 00:15:55,996 --> 00:15:59,796 Speaker 1: with this issue of voter suppression. And you've been working 284 00:15:59,796 --> 00:16:04,396 Speaker 1: with this organization, the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. So tell 285 00:16:04,476 --> 00:16:07,596 Speaker 1: us what you've been working on, tell us how this works. Yeah, 286 00:16:07,596 --> 00:16:11,116 Speaker 1: the NDRC, the National Democrat Redistricting Committee, the NDRC was 287 00:16:11,156 --> 00:16:15,116 Speaker 1: formed up in January of twenty seventeen, and what we 288 00:16:15,156 --> 00:16:16,756 Speaker 1: wanted to do was to try to come up with 289 00:16:16,796 --> 00:16:19,956 Speaker 1: a way in which the redistricting process, which happens every 290 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 1: ten years after the census when we draw the lines 291 00:16:23,076 --> 00:16:25,836 Speaker 1: and that decides, you know, what the districts is going 292 00:16:25,876 --> 00:16:28,876 Speaker 1: to look like at the state legislature, in state legislatures 293 00:16:28,916 --> 00:16:31,796 Speaker 1: as well as in you know, the United States House 294 00:16:31,836 --> 00:16:34,716 Speaker 1: of Representatives. To do that in a fair way, Republicans 295 00:16:34,716 --> 00:16:39,276 Speaker 1: had really jerrymandered. In twenty eleven, a study at Princeton 296 00:16:39,356 --> 00:16:42,036 Speaker 1: University said it was the worst jerrymandering of the past 297 00:16:42,236 --> 00:16:43,916 Speaker 1: fifty years. And we said, you know, if we just 298 00:16:43,996 --> 00:16:47,316 Speaker 1: make this fair, Progressives Democrats will be just fine as 299 00:16:47,356 --> 00:16:49,796 Speaker 1: long as it is fair. This is kind of simple, Eric, 300 00:16:49,796 --> 00:16:53,156 Speaker 1: but could you just define what jerrymandering is. Yeah, Jerrymandering 301 00:16:53,196 --> 00:16:55,676 Speaker 1: is the drawing of district lines in such a way 302 00:16:55,716 --> 00:17:00,516 Speaker 1: that you guarantee, almost guarantee that the party that draws 303 00:17:00,516 --> 00:17:04,676 Speaker 1: the lines that their candidate will win. And so you 304 00:17:04,796 --> 00:17:08,196 Speaker 1: end up with people who are in these elected positions 305 00:17:08,396 --> 00:17:11,196 Speaker 1: who don't year a general election because they know they're 306 00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:13,116 Speaker 1: going to win, that the only thing they worry about 307 00:17:13,196 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 1: is getting primaried. You know, there's a whole range of things. 308 00:17:15,716 --> 00:17:18,596 Speaker 1: And now we have seen as a result of the 309 00:17:18,636 --> 00:17:22,676 Speaker 1: Dobb's decision, we've seen these gerrymandered state legislatures use the 310 00:17:22,716 --> 00:17:25,156 Speaker 1: power that they have to put in place these anti 311 00:17:25,236 --> 00:17:29,036 Speaker 1: choice laws that are inconsistent with the desires of the 312 00:17:29,116 --> 00:17:32,276 Speaker 1: people in the states where these things are being passed. 313 00:17:32,556 --> 00:17:35,796 Speaker 1: But they can pass these bills even though again every 314 00:17:35,796 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 1: state that stunn a poll, every state has said we 315 00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:41,076 Speaker 1: don't want roversus way to overturn. Now, the margins are 316 00:17:41,076 --> 00:17:43,916 Speaker 1: different in New York they than say in Texas, but 317 00:17:43,956 --> 00:17:46,396 Speaker 1: they can put in place these anti choice laws, these 318 00:17:46,436 --> 00:17:50,516 Speaker 1: draconian anti choice laws, and not fear any electoral consequence 319 00:17:50,596 --> 00:17:54,036 Speaker 1: because they're in these gerrymandered state legislatures. And so that's 320 00:17:54,076 --> 00:17:57,076 Speaker 1: what we were We've been fighting, in addition to fighting 321 00:17:57,156 --> 00:18:01,356 Speaker 1: voter suppression and the attacks on our electoral infrastructure. While 322 00:18:01,356 --> 00:18:05,276 Speaker 1: your Attorney General Shelby County, Alabama has this lawsuit to 323 00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:07,716 Speaker 1: weaken the nineteen sixty five Voting Rights out and it 324 00:18:07,756 --> 00:18:10,396 Speaker 1: goes to the Supreme Court and the decision that actually 325 00:18:10,396 --> 00:18:13,756 Speaker 1: does weaken the act. Is this where your inspiration to 326 00:18:13,796 --> 00:18:15,596 Speaker 1: do this kind of where comes from? Where you're already 327 00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:19,276 Speaker 1: thinking about working on voting rights. No, it's interesting. I 328 00:18:19,396 --> 00:18:21,916 Speaker 1: knew that working to protect voting rights was going to 329 00:18:21,996 --> 00:18:24,436 Speaker 1: be within the range of those things that I was 330 00:18:24,436 --> 00:18:26,676 Speaker 1: really going to have to focus on is ag and 331 00:18:26,716 --> 00:18:29,836 Speaker 1: that was fine. But after the Shelby County decision in 332 00:18:29,876 --> 00:18:33,556 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, it becomes critically clear that I'm going to 333 00:18:33,636 --> 00:18:36,156 Speaker 1: have to use the power what remains of the power 334 00:18:36,196 --> 00:18:39,036 Speaker 1: that the Justice Department has to try to get at 335 00:18:39,396 --> 00:18:43,076 Speaker 1: what the States almost immediately did after the Shelby County case, 336 00:18:43,116 --> 00:18:45,756 Speaker 1: which is one of the worst Supreme Court decisions in history. 337 00:18:45,756 --> 00:18:49,196 Speaker 1: It's a five four decision where Chief Justice Roberts says, 338 00:18:49,276 --> 00:18:53,796 Speaker 1: America has changed, and as a result of that, you know, 339 00:18:54,156 --> 00:18:57,116 Speaker 1: we don't need to have in the full force that 340 00:18:57,196 --> 00:18:59,676 Speaker 1: we now have, the Voting Rights Act of nineteen sixty five, 341 00:18:59,716 --> 00:19:02,876 Speaker 1: which is the pearl of the jewel, the crown jewel 342 00:19:02,916 --> 00:19:06,596 Speaker 1: of the civil rights movement. Almost immediately States put in 343 00:19:06,636 --> 00:19:11,036 Speaker 1: place these unnecessary photo ID laws. Seventeen hundred polling places 344 00:19:11,036 --> 00:19:14,676 Speaker 1: have been closed around the country since Shelby County decision. 345 00:19:15,116 --> 00:19:18,436 Speaker 1: Unnecessary voter purges have occurred, all of which would have 346 00:19:18,436 --> 00:19:21,956 Speaker 1: been stopped before the Shelby County case by the Justice 347 00:19:21,956 --> 00:19:24,916 Speaker 1: Department in those covered jurisdictions. Because the Justice Department had 348 00:19:24,916 --> 00:19:28,196 Speaker 1: the ability to look at any change in an electoral 349 00:19:28,236 --> 00:19:31,156 Speaker 1: system and say you can't do that. But after Shelby 350 00:19:31,196 --> 00:19:34,396 Speaker 1: County Justice Department did not did not have that power, 351 00:19:34,476 --> 00:19:38,996 Speaker 1: and so it became clear twenty thirteen on the voting 352 00:19:39,076 --> 00:19:43,036 Speaker 1: rights had to be a primary focus of my time 353 00:19:43,076 --> 00:19:45,796 Speaker 1: at the department, and I you know it is again. 354 00:19:45,876 --> 00:19:47,916 Speaker 1: So after I leave the department, or what I said 355 00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:50,276 Speaker 1: in my closing speech was I'm leaving the department, but 356 00:19:50,316 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: I'll never leave the work. And what I meant by 357 00:19:52,676 --> 00:19:54,956 Speaker 1: that is I'm never going to leave the work to 358 00:19:54,996 --> 00:19:57,956 Speaker 1: protect our democracy generally and to protect the right to 359 00:19:58,036 --> 00:20:01,756 Speaker 1: vote more specifically. Yeah, now it's just us here. I mean, 360 00:20:01,836 --> 00:20:04,956 Speaker 1: it's just Derek, Ben and Khalil You. What you really 361 00:20:04,996 --> 00:20:07,476 Speaker 1: want to say is that they mess with the wrong 362 00:20:07,556 --> 00:20:09,956 Speaker 1: brother from Queens. Since your name is on that's the 363 00:20:10,036 --> 00:20:12,516 Speaker 1: Freme Court decision Shelby versus Holding. You said, Okay, I'll 364 00:20:12,556 --> 00:20:14,196 Speaker 1: be back, but I won't be back here as ag. 365 00:20:14,356 --> 00:20:17,076 Speaker 1: I'm going to be back here with a cape and 366 00:20:17,156 --> 00:20:20,516 Speaker 1: an ass underneath my sweater, and I'm ready to bring 367 00:20:20,556 --> 00:20:22,876 Speaker 1: the fight to the people. You can't mess with Sunny 368 00:20:22,956 --> 00:20:27,596 Speaker 1: Holder's boy. Try me. So we just had a midterm 369 00:20:27,716 --> 00:20:30,716 Speaker 1: I mean, Ben and I are still learning from exit 370 00:20:30,756 --> 00:20:36,156 Speaker 1: poll research and results in the newspapers what happened and 371 00:20:36,436 --> 00:20:40,476 Speaker 1: why one outcome went one way and another. Obviously, the 372 00:20:40,556 --> 00:20:43,996 Speaker 1: degree to which the Democrats retain control of the Senate 373 00:20:44,476 --> 00:20:47,796 Speaker 1: but lost the House is as a sort of mixed outcome. 374 00:20:48,436 --> 00:20:51,436 Speaker 1: But I'm really curious, as a native New Yorker, to 375 00:20:51,516 --> 00:20:54,516 Speaker 1: what degree do you see that in New York and 376 00:20:54,676 --> 00:20:56,996 Speaker 1: in the nation, your own work over these past several 377 00:20:57,076 --> 00:20:59,636 Speaker 1: years having led to a good outcome, Is it a 378 00:20:59,676 --> 00:21:02,236 Speaker 1: mixed outcome for you? How do you weigh the results 379 00:21:02,236 --> 00:21:04,756 Speaker 1: of the twenty twenty two midterm elections? Yeah, you know, 380 00:21:04,796 --> 00:21:06,476 Speaker 1: I think in a lot of ways a twenty twenty 381 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:10,196 Speaker 1: two midterm or midterms are validation of the work that 382 00:21:10,236 --> 00:21:14,196 Speaker 1: we did. We have seen, you know, the flip of 383 00:21:14,476 --> 00:21:20,756 Speaker 1: state legislative chambers in Minnesota, Michigan, Pennsylvania, you know, trifecta 384 00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:23,236 Speaker 1: control for Democrats for the first time in forty years 385 00:21:23,316 --> 00:21:29,516 Speaker 1: in Michigan, much more fair voting in Pennsylvania, Virginia, and 386 00:21:29,596 --> 00:21:33,516 Speaker 1: North Carolina. So lots of lots of pluses. So I'd 387 00:21:33,516 --> 00:21:36,156 Speaker 1: say overall it was a good night. There was a 388 00:21:36,156 --> 00:21:39,116 Speaker 1: good mid term that, as I said, validated a lot 389 00:21:39,196 --> 00:21:40,956 Speaker 1: of the work that we did New York, there is 390 00:21:40,996 --> 00:21:45,036 Speaker 1: an interesting case. You know, Initially a lot of people said, well, 391 00:21:45,036 --> 00:21:47,236 Speaker 1: you know, it's because of the redistricting that was done 392 00:21:47,996 --> 00:21:52,476 Speaker 1: inappropriately overreached by New York Democrats. And then you know, 393 00:21:52,556 --> 00:21:54,716 Speaker 1: the court drew the lines in such a way that 394 00:21:54,716 --> 00:21:57,316 Speaker 1: were unfair at least as we looked at kind of 395 00:21:57,316 --> 00:22:00,916 Speaker 1: the data here. The places where Democrats lost in New 396 00:22:00,996 --> 00:22:04,276 Speaker 1: York were pro Biden districts by a variety I think 397 00:22:04,316 --> 00:22:06,956 Speaker 1: two percent to five percent. And so something else was 398 00:22:06,996 --> 00:22:09,876 Speaker 1: going on there as to why, you know, Democrats loss, 399 00:22:09,916 --> 00:22:13,356 Speaker 1: I think the crime you know, measures or the crime 400 00:22:13,476 --> 00:22:16,796 Speaker 1: arguments republican, the rhetoric, the fair langering. Yet yeah, really 401 00:22:16,876 --> 00:22:19,476 Speaker 1: kind of resonated for whatever reason in New York in 402 00:22:19,516 --> 00:22:22,316 Speaker 1: a way that did not resonate in similar kinds of 403 00:22:22,356 --> 00:22:26,196 Speaker 1: suburban districts in other states. And so I think more study, 404 00:22:26,396 --> 00:22:28,156 Speaker 1: I think it's going to have to be is going 405 00:22:28,196 --> 00:22:31,356 Speaker 1: to have to be done. But it wasn't the redistricting. 406 00:22:31,396 --> 00:22:34,356 Speaker 1: I think that cost Democrats critically, you know, four or 407 00:22:34,396 --> 00:22:37,876 Speaker 1: five seats in New York. It was something else, Eric 408 00:22:38,156 --> 00:22:39,676 Speaker 1: as you're saying, it was a good night that the 409 00:22:39,756 --> 00:22:43,116 Speaker 1: election day, the election was a good night. You're wearing 410 00:22:43,116 --> 00:22:45,436 Speaker 1: two hats. I sort of hear you say, like one 411 00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:49,516 Speaker 1: as a Democratic stalwart, and you're saying like how Democrats did, 412 00:22:49,516 --> 00:22:53,516 Speaker 1: but you're also talking about was it fair? And we're 413 00:22:53,556 --> 00:22:55,716 Speaker 1: the problems with the vote, and those seem those could 414 00:22:55,716 --> 00:22:57,916 Speaker 1: be aligned, but they don't necessarily have to be. You know, 415 00:22:57,916 --> 00:22:59,876 Speaker 1: it's interesting, Ben that you say that, because I actually 416 00:22:59,876 --> 00:23:02,996 Speaker 1: think that I'm not. I'm wearing one hat because the 417 00:23:03,116 --> 00:23:06,276 Speaker 1: reality is, although yeah, I'm a Democrat and proud of that, 418 00:23:06,956 --> 00:23:09,716 Speaker 1: one party has made the determination in our system, and 419 00:23:09,796 --> 00:23:12,436 Speaker 1: let's just be fair, let's you know, be accurate about this. 420 00:23:12,516 --> 00:23:17,436 Speaker 1: One party stands for democratic small d democratic principles, you know, 421 00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:22,316 Speaker 1: pro democracy. Another party, because of the demographic changes that 422 00:23:22,396 --> 00:23:25,676 Speaker 1: it faces, the ideological ideological shifts that I think the 423 00:23:25,756 --> 00:23:29,756 Speaker 1: nation is undergoing, they've made peace with the notion that 424 00:23:29,796 --> 00:23:33,156 Speaker 1: they can be, in terms of popular support, a minority 425 00:23:33,276 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 1: party that has majority power. And so they do a 426 00:23:37,716 --> 00:23:41,756 Speaker 1: whole range of things racial and partists in jerrymandering, making 427 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:44,956 Speaker 1: it more difficult for people to vote, suppressing the vote. 428 00:23:44,956 --> 00:23:46,476 Speaker 1: And so when I say we had a good night, 429 00:23:46,996 --> 00:23:48,876 Speaker 1: what I meant by that? And it made me make 430 00:23:48,916 --> 00:23:51,396 Speaker 1: this clear to everybody. I meant that democracy had a 431 00:23:51,476 --> 00:23:55,196 Speaker 1: good night. Now that also meant that Democrats had a 432 00:23:55,236 --> 00:23:58,996 Speaker 1: good night, because Republicans are too much of the Republican 433 00:23:59,076 --> 00:24:02,916 Speaker 1: Party has kind of turned its back on that, which 434 00:24:03,596 --> 00:24:06,076 Speaker 1: when we are saying we are exceptional, the thing that 435 00:24:06,236 --> 00:24:08,916 Speaker 1: makes us exceptional is the fact that we let the 436 00:24:08,916 --> 00:24:13,236 Speaker 1: people decide. We've been an imperfect nation. You know, we're 437 00:24:13,276 --> 00:24:15,196 Speaker 1: better than we were fifty years ago and better than 438 00:24:15,276 --> 00:24:17,316 Speaker 1: fifty years before, but we're still not at a place 439 00:24:17,316 --> 00:24:19,956 Speaker 1: where we need to be. But I'm really worried about 440 00:24:19,996 --> 00:24:23,956 Speaker 1: where the Republican Party is headed. Yeah. Well, this is 441 00:24:23,956 --> 00:24:25,676 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is really interesting 442 00:24:25,836 --> 00:24:30,756 Speaker 1: about this moment, because you have given speeches about and 443 00:24:30,836 --> 00:24:33,236 Speaker 1: you've written in your book about the history that helps 444 00:24:33,276 --> 00:24:38,236 Speaker 1: inform how we Americans ought to think about democracy as sacrosanct, 445 00:24:38,436 --> 00:24:42,396 Speaker 1: as non negotiable. And yet I think it's fair eric 446 00:24:42,436 --> 00:24:45,836 Speaker 1: to say that America didn't actually deliver democracy to all 447 00:24:45,836 --> 00:24:49,476 Speaker 1: of its people until nineteen sixty five, in which case 448 00:24:49,756 --> 00:24:54,956 Speaker 1: we're talking about more than or just shy of essentially 449 00:24:54,996 --> 00:24:58,556 Speaker 1: two hundred years of a country who so called liberal 450 00:24:58,556 --> 00:25:02,996 Speaker 1: democracy was not for everyone. And I'm wondering how do 451 00:25:03,116 --> 00:25:08,316 Speaker 1: you navigate the sort of tide of history and the 452 00:25:08,476 --> 00:25:11,716 Speaker 1: need to actually make these changes In a sense, wouldn't 453 00:25:11,716 --> 00:25:16,636 Speaker 1: we have to become a different nation legislatively and by structure, 454 00:25:16,676 --> 00:25:19,396 Speaker 1: by political structure, by the very reforms you proposed would 455 00:25:19,396 --> 00:25:22,756 Speaker 1: actually change the bones of this country in order to 456 00:25:22,796 --> 00:25:27,436 Speaker 1: maintain the post nineteen sixty five multiracial democracy. You know, 457 00:25:27,476 --> 00:25:31,596 Speaker 1: the demographic changes are baked into this nation. We're going 458 00:25:31,676 --> 00:25:34,876 Speaker 1: to be a we say, twenty fifty, we will have 459 00:25:35,516 --> 00:25:38,196 Speaker 1: more people of color than than white folks in this nation. 460 00:25:38,196 --> 00:25:40,076 Speaker 1: Now that's been moved up to twenty forty three. The 461 00:25:40,156 --> 00:25:42,436 Speaker 1: last I look might even be earlier than that now. 462 00:25:42,876 --> 00:25:46,316 Speaker 1: And so those demographic changes can be a source of 463 00:25:46,356 --> 00:25:50,236 Speaker 1: great strength for this nation or they can be unbelievably divisive. 464 00:25:50,276 --> 00:25:53,396 Speaker 1: And you know, Donald Trump has tried to use those 465 00:25:53,516 --> 00:25:58,996 Speaker 1: demographic changes to instill fear and to gain political control. 466 00:25:59,556 --> 00:26:01,716 Speaker 1: And so we've got to look at the structure of 467 00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:06,316 Speaker 1: our nation. And yeah, it was groundbreaking and wonderful two 468 00:26:06,396 --> 00:26:08,916 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years or so ago, but it was flawed. 469 00:26:09,156 --> 00:26:11,236 Speaker 1: And the first group of people who fought for the 470 00:26:11,356 --> 00:26:16,596 Speaker 1: right to vote were white men and the Jacksonian era, Yeah, 471 00:26:16,836 --> 00:26:19,876 Speaker 1: who did their own property. While the founders are in 472 00:26:19,916 --> 00:26:22,956 Speaker 1: the process of putting this thing called America together, they 473 00:26:22,956 --> 00:26:25,436 Speaker 1: consider a couple they consider one thing. On somebody said, well, 474 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:28,196 Speaker 1: what we should let all white men vote? Well, not 475 00:26:28,236 --> 00:26:30,396 Speaker 1: only with property. And when somebody one of the founders says, 476 00:26:30,476 --> 00:26:33,156 Speaker 1: wait a minute, if you give white men without property 477 00:26:33,196 --> 00:26:36,076 Speaker 1: the right to vote, they don't have the intellectual capacity. 478 00:26:36,116 --> 00:26:38,716 Speaker 1: They'll be able to be bought off. And interestingly says, 479 00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:41,596 Speaker 1: if you give them the right to vote, other groups 480 00:26:41,636 --> 00:26:43,676 Speaker 1: we're going to ask for the right to vote, including 481 00:26:43,876 --> 00:26:47,636 Speaker 1: up hold on to it now women And sure enough, 482 00:26:47,756 --> 00:26:51,956 Speaker 1: as that founding father predicted, other groups over time have 483 00:26:52,676 --> 00:26:55,116 Speaker 1: sought that that right to vote. But we need to 484 00:26:55,156 --> 00:26:57,276 Speaker 1: make structural changes. I mean, yeah, it was great two 485 00:26:57,356 --> 00:26:59,796 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty years or so ago. You know, the 486 00:26:59,876 --> 00:27:04,796 Speaker 1: Senate two senators for every state, part of the you know, 487 00:27:04,836 --> 00:27:08,516 Speaker 1: the great Compromise. So Wyoming's got to with less people 488 00:27:08,556 --> 00:27:12,316 Speaker 1: than why Hington DC a sticking point for me, and 489 00:27:12,476 --> 00:27:15,556 Speaker 1: California with over thirty million people, you know, has to 490 00:27:16,276 --> 00:27:19,916 Speaker 1: We've allowed the filibuster to render the Senate to be 491 00:27:19,956 --> 00:27:24,156 Speaker 1: a place that just doesn't function well. Supreme Court life 492 00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:27,956 Speaker 1: tenures sounded great when people lived, you know, much shorter lives, 493 00:27:27,996 --> 00:27:29,996 Speaker 1: and people left the court in the early parts of 494 00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:35,836 Speaker 1: our country when they died. Now people do these strategic retirements, 495 00:27:35,836 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 1: and this is Democrats as well as Republicans. You know, 496 00:27:37,916 --> 00:27:40,436 Speaker 1: they leave when they decide that they're going to have 497 00:27:40,516 --> 00:27:43,036 Speaker 1: a president who will appoint somebody like them. And we 498 00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:45,196 Speaker 1: put people on the court when they're like in the 499 00:27:45,316 --> 00:27:47,436 Speaker 1: late forties, early fifties and with the hope that they'll 500 00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:50,396 Speaker 1: serve forty fifty years. That's too much time for somebody 501 00:27:50,396 --> 00:27:53,036 Speaker 1: to have that much power. Yeah, you're proposing now that 502 00:27:53,076 --> 00:27:55,436 Speaker 1: it'd be eighteen year terms. And I've read this and 503 00:27:55,836 --> 00:27:58,556 Speaker 1: heard it amongst some of my colleagues who are law professors, 504 00:27:58,956 --> 00:28:02,516 Speaker 1: that eighteen year term limited. I think actually the former 505 00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:05,756 Speaker 1: Justice Brier has recently come out also in favor of 506 00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:08,596 Speaker 1: term limited Supreme Court appointments. You know, that's one of 507 00:28:08,596 --> 00:28:11,476 Speaker 1: the rare places. The Chief Justice Roberts and I agree 508 00:28:11,556 --> 00:28:15,556 Speaker 1: he says term limits of fifteen years. I say eighteen 509 00:28:15,956 --> 00:28:18,716 Speaker 1: because I also think that a president should appoint a 510 00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:21,876 Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice in his or her first year as 511 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:24,636 Speaker 1: well as her third year of an administration. So a 512 00:28:24,676 --> 00:28:29,756 Speaker 1: president would be guaranteed to Supreme Court appointments every term, 513 00:28:29,836 --> 00:28:32,516 Speaker 1: and if you have them at eighteen years, over time, 514 00:28:32,516 --> 00:28:34,676 Speaker 1: that will expand the court in the short term, but 515 00:28:34,756 --> 00:28:37,636 Speaker 1: over time the court will come back to nine members. 516 00:28:37,716 --> 00:28:39,956 Speaker 1: And just to close the loop on this point, I think, 517 00:28:39,996 --> 00:28:42,516 Speaker 1: I mean this tension between fairness and what's in the 518 00:28:42,516 --> 00:28:45,756 Speaker 1: interests of the Democratic Party, which is often the main 519 00:28:45,796 --> 00:28:49,676 Speaker 1: talking point of the Fox News and conservative ecosystem. I mean, 520 00:28:49,756 --> 00:28:52,796 Speaker 1: all these reforms are really just to put more Democrats 521 00:28:52,796 --> 00:28:56,596 Speaker 1: in power. Fundamentally turns on a rejection of the notion, 522 00:28:56,636 --> 00:28:58,516 Speaker 1: as was true in the Founding Generation, that people who 523 00:28:58,516 --> 00:29:01,556 Speaker 1: are taxed and who have obligations to the state should 524 00:29:01,556 --> 00:29:04,396 Speaker 1: also have the right to vote. Period hard stop, end 525 00:29:04,436 --> 00:29:08,836 Speaker 1: of story, and we'll let the electoral outcomes of their 526 00:29:08,836 --> 00:29:12,316 Speaker 1: patient let the chips fall where they may. So it's 527 00:29:12,356 --> 00:29:16,236 Speaker 1: not fundamentally fair that Puerto Rico has essentially been treated 528 00:29:16,236 --> 00:29:19,196 Speaker 1: as a stepchild in our democratic system of government, and 529 00:29:19,236 --> 00:29:21,756 Speaker 1: more certainly true for the residents of Washington, DC. I 530 00:29:21,756 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: mean that's your point, yeah, and clear you make a 531 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:25,716 Speaker 1: really good point there, because I think the reality is 532 00:29:25,756 --> 00:29:29,316 Speaker 1: that it's a telling thing about where the conservative movement 533 00:29:29,396 --> 00:29:31,556 Speaker 1: is right now, where the Republican Party is right now 534 00:29:31,796 --> 00:29:34,116 Speaker 1: that when you stand for things that looked at I 535 00:29:34,116 --> 00:29:38,836 Speaker 1: think objectively, are just all about fairness, injecting fairness into 536 00:29:38,836 --> 00:29:43,316 Speaker 1: the system, they deem that partisan. Right. Well, you know, 537 00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:45,276 Speaker 1: people ought to have the right to vote. We should 538 00:29:45,316 --> 00:29:48,196 Speaker 1: have more polling places. We should reduce the number the 539 00:29:48,196 --> 00:29:51,236 Speaker 1: amount of time it takes for a person to vote. 540 00:29:51,516 --> 00:29:53,476 Speaker 1: We should make it easy for people to vote by 541 00:29:53,556 --> 00:29:57,876 Speaker 1: letting people vote by mail, you have early voting hours 542 00:29:57,956 --> 00:30:01,356 Speaker 1: and people that's you know, you're favoring Democrats. No, I'm 543 00:30:01,396 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 1: favoring the American people. Now it may mean that more 544 00:30:06,076 --> 00:30:09,076 Speaker 1: I don't know, Democrats will maybe Democrats when maybe Demo 545 00:30:09,116 --> 00:30:11,556 Speaker 1: perhaps to lose. I don't really care as long as 546 00:30:11,636 --> 00:30:15,236 Speaker 1: the system is fair. We are here with the amazing 547 00:30:15,436 --> 00:30:19,796 Speaker 1: Eric Holder, Sonny's kid, and we will be back after 548 00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:22,876 Speaker 1: a short break to talk about a more perfect future. 549 00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:45,476 Speaker 1: So one of the things I'm struck by, Eric, is 550 00:30:45,556 --> 00:30:49,996 Speaker 1: that there's this chicken and egg problem, meaning that in 551 00:30:50,116 --> 00:30:53,476 Speaker 1: order to get to these reforms like automatic voter registration, 552 00:30:53,916 --> 00:30:56,796 Speaker 1: like reforming the use of the filibuster by getting rid 553 00:30:56,836 --> 00:31:01,116 Speaker 1: of it, by dealing with Supreme Court term limits, all 554 00:31:01,156 --> 00:31:05,036 Speaker 1: of these are in the end legislative reforms, you'll have 555 00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:10,116 Speaker 1: to get voters to support passing this legislation. And as 556 00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:13,556 Speaker 1: a Ben and I being gen xers, you know, we 557 00:31:13,596 --> 00:31:18,156 Speaker 1: are keenly aware that for our generation that's been written 558 00:31:18,196 --> 00:31:21,436 Speaker 1: out of the history books at having accomplished nothing like 559 00:31:21,516 --> 00:31:25,756 Speaker 1: the first generation of FoST civil writers, right like your generation, Eric. 560 00:31:25,796 --> 00:31:28,316 Speaker 1: You know, you guys took the reins of power. You 561 00:31:28,356 --> 00:31:30,796 Speaker 1: were the first to show up in all parts of 562 00:31:30,796 --> 00:31:35,396 Speaker 1: American society, and then your kids us ultimately just set 563 00:31:35,436 --> 00:31:38,556 Speaker 1: on our hands and enjoyed the fruits of all that labor. Now, 564 00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 1: of course with this podcast, we are trying to make 565 00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:46,276 Speaker 1: up for lost time. But that's totally unfair, I mean, 566 00:31:46,276 --> 00:31:50,116 Speaker 1: because the reality is that your generation has accomplished a 567 00:31:50,156 --> 00:31:53,036 Speaker 1: great deal, you know, thank you, No, I mean that's 568 00:31:53,116 --> 00:31:55,396 Speaker 1: really true. And in the notion that somehow or other, 569 00:31:55,916 --> 00:32:00,116 Speaker 1: you know, boomers did all these wonderful things and then 570 00:32:00,156 --> 00:32:02,956 Speaker 1: nothing has happened. I mean, you know that which the 571 00:32:03,076 --> 00:32:07,636 Speaker 1: generation before me put in place or started, and that 572 00:32:07,716 --> 00:32:10,916 Speaker 1: we've tried to keep going. Your generation has done its 573 00:32:10,956 --> 00:32:13,916 Speaker 1: part to do, you know, as we did, and you'll 574 00:32:14,236 --> 00:32:19,116 Speaker 1: want get nearly the credit that you deserve, you know, 575 00:32:19,156 --> 00:32:21,876 Speaker 1: you guys are still young and malleable, and we need 576 00:32:21,956 --> 00:32:24,356 Speaker 1: to bring you over to the democracy side. You know, 577 00:32:24,516 --> 00:32:26,636 Speaker 1: I love it, I love it. I'm ready. I signed 578 00:32:26,636 --> 00:32:29,036 Speaker 1: me up. But on this point, so we are talking 579 00:32:29,036 --> 00:32:31,436 Speaker 1: about a generational divide, and it's not it's not not 580 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:34,916 Speaker 1: an issue, right because, as you well know, in John 581 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:39,316 Speaker 1: Lewis's day, when he decided to leave Troy, Alabama, to 582 00:32:39,396 --> 00:32:42,236 Speaker 1: leave his parents who were farmers, to make his way 583 00:32:42,276 --> 00:32:45,196 Speaker 1: to Fisk University and sit at the foot of Jim 584 00:32:45,276 --> 00:32:48,996 Speaker 1: Lawson and learn about the nonviolent movement he broke from 585 00:32:49,036 --> 00:32:51,916 Speaker 1: his parents. They did not send him out there to 586 00:32:51,996 --> 00:32:55,636 Speaker 1: make sacrifice to change the world. And it seems to me, 587 00:32:55,956 --> 00:32:58,716 Speaker 1: just from my perspective, that we are still living with 588 00:32:58,876 --> 00:33:02,276 Speaker 1: generational tensions between young black activists who are engaging in 589 00:33:02,396 --> 00:33:06,236 Speaker 1: racial justice movements right now on the ground. Some of 590 00:33:06,276 --> 00:33:08,956 Speaker 1: them are teenagers, some of them are like Latasha Brown, 591 00:33:09,396 --> 00:33:13,236 Speaker 1: who is organizing in Alabama and really nationally for black 592 00:33:13,316 --> 00:33:17,836 Speaker 1: voters matter. How do you make sense of today's generational 593 00:33:17,876 --> 00:33:22,156 Speaker 1: divide between a baby boom generation that's still active, still 594 00:33:22,436 --> 00:33:24,836 Speaker 1: doing things, and even how we sort of hold up 595 00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:27,996 Speaker 1: people like John Lewis as an avatar for change when 596 00:33:28,196 --> 00:33:32,476 Speaker 1: there are people today doing this work. This generational tension, 597 00:33:33,036 --> 00:33:35,396 Speaker 1: it certainly exists and we can but we can make 598 00:33:35,436 --> 00:33:37,676 Speaker 1: more of it than it actually is. I mean, I 599 00:33:37,716 --> 00:33:42,196 Speaker 1: look at these young people today and they remind me 600 00:33:42,396 --> 00:33:44,916 Speaker 1: of me. I'm the guy you know, at that age 601 00:33:44,956 --> 00:33:48,036 Speaker 1: who was taken over the Naval ROTC office to come 602 00:33:48,116 --> 00:33:51,076 Speaker 1: up with a black lounge. You know, attention is good 603 00:33:51,316 --> 00:33:55,316 Speaker 1: because young people are the ones least beat down by 604 00:33:55,756 --> 00:34:00,356 Speaker 1: the experiences that you acquire over time, and it's almost inevitable, 605 00:34:00,436 --> 00:34:03,796 Speaker 1: you know, as you age, they are the most optimistic. 606 00:34:04,156 --> 00:34:07,476 Speaker 1: They are the ones who are physically, you know, most capable. 607 00:34:08,356 --> 00:34:10,756 Speaker 1: And so the question is how do you harness that 608 00:34:10,876 --> 00:34:15,276 Speaker 1: energy with the knowledge that that older folks have. You know, 609 00:34:15,596 --> 00:34:19,636 Speaker 1: Richard probably to always say, you don't see many old fools. 610 00:34:20,236 --> 00:34:22,716 Speaker 1: You know, when you get to be old, you've been 611 00:34:22,756 --> 00:34:25,236 Speaker 1: able to navigate, at least at a minimum, you know, 612 00:34:25,316 --> 00:34:31,636 Speaker 1: keep yourself alive. And so getting that that experiential base 613 00:34:32,036 --> 00:34:36,236 Speaker 1: along with that youthful fervor, that is the way in 614 00:34:36,276 --> 00:34:38,156 Speaker 1: which you know the movement at the end of the 615 00:34:38,236 --> 00:34:41,196 Speaker 1: day will be most successful. Now it means that people 616 00:34:41,236 --> 00:34:43,676 Speaker 1: have to again keep their eyes on the price and 617 00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:46,396 Speaker 1: we can argue about tactics, and you have to compromise 618 00:34:46,436 --> 00:34:49,516 Speaker 1: around tactics, which you never compromise about what our ultimate 619 00:34:49,596 --> 00:34:52,276 Speaker 1: goals are. I want to stay on this a minute longer, 620 00:34:52,276 --> 00:34:54,716 Speaker 1: because this is fascinating. You talked about being entering your 621 00:34:54,756 --> 00:34:57,396 Speaker 1: seventies and feeling as progressive as you were, or more 622 00:34:57,436 --> 00:35:00,156 Speaker 1: so than even when you were at fifteen. Certainly a 623 00:35:00,156 --> 00:35:03,836 Speaker 1: problem for the Democratic Party is what we're describing here, 624 00:35:04,116 --> 00:35:08,436 Speaker 1: that the leadership is older and more centrist, and the 625 00:35:08,516 --> 00:35:13,356 Speaker 1: younger people are much further to the left on actual policy, 626 00:35:13,396 --> 00:35:15,716 Speaker 1: on the prize, not just on tactics, but like what 627 00:35:15,756 --> 00:35:18,196 Speaker 1: we're supposed to achieve. And so I don't think we 628 00:35:18,236 --> 00:35:20,356 Speaker 1: can just sort of say like we're all. You know, 629 00:35:20,396 --> 00:35:23,716 Speaker 1: this is a good tension, because it's also the riffs that, 630 00:35:25,476 --> 00:35:28,036 Speaker 1: you know, we might have strategies to win elections, but 631 00:35:28,076 --> 00:35:31,356 Speaker 1: we're not even sure what exactly we stand for. It's 632 00:35:31,356 --> 00:35:35,076 Speaker 1: a tension that on one hand leads some young voters 633 00:35:35,156 --> 00:35:37,556 Speaker 1: to not vote because they feel like they're not being 634 00:35:38,276 --> 00:35:44,476 Speaker 1: captured in the party itself in responding to their political 635 00:35:44,556 --> 00:35:47,436 Speaker 1: vision of the future. And also those young people have 636 00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:51,596 Speaker 1: been scapegoaded by Republicans and the right, as terrorists who 637 00:35:51,596 --> 00:35:56,596 Speaker 1: want to change America, who who literally are the thing 638 00:35:56,716 --> 00:36:00,516 Speaker 1: that Republican voters have to do everything in their power 639 00:36:00,716 --> 00:36:04,756 Speaker 1: to keep from voting, otherwise they would change America. And 640 00:36:04,796 --> 00:36:07,996 Speaker 1: then Democrats runaway. Centrist Democrats run away from them, from 641 00:36:07,996 --> 00:36:10,436 Speaker 1: the youth, from those those charges. Yeah, you know, it's 642 00:36:10,436 --> 00:36:12,556 Speaker 1: interesting because I mean, I think if you look at 643 00:36:13,036 --> 00:36:17,276 Speaker 1: Democrats written large, and say, are you concerned about things 644 00:36:17,276 --> 00:36:19,676 Speaker 1: that animate and move? I think young people, you know, 645 00:36:19,716 --> 00:36:22,156 Speaker 1: are you concerned about climate? They'd all say yes. Are 646 00:36:22,156 --> 00:36:24,316 Speaker 1: you concerned about a woman's right? Two? They all say yes, 647 00:36:24,556 --> 00:36:28,116 Speaker 1: criminal justice reform, yeah, you know, protecting the right to vote? Yeah, 648 00:36:28,156 --> 00:36:30,956 Speaker 1: So everybody's I think, in the same place when it 649 00:36:30,996 --> 00:36:35,196 Speaker 1: comes to those things that are that matter. The question 650 00:36:35,476 --> 00:36:38,916 Speaker 1: that I think that separates the generations is, so what 651 00:36:39,036 --> 00:36:41,436 Speaker 1: is it that we do to get to the place 652 00:36:41,476 --> 00:36:44,996 Speaker 1: where we are dealing effectively with climate? And so, you know, 653 00:36:45,036 --> 00:36:47,956 Speaker 1: you have something the New Green Deal, which has been 654 00:36:48,756 --> 00:36:54,836 Speaker 1: totally misconstrued as a molocialist package to destroy America. Right. 655 00:36:54,956 --> 00:36:56,956 Speaker 1: I mean, people, you know, Fox talks about the New 656 00:36:56,996 --> 00:36:58,916 Speaker 1: Green Deal. They don't have any idea what the New 657 00:36:58,956 --> 00:37:00,716 Speaker 1: Green Deal is about other than it's just a good 658 00:37:00,756 --> 00:37:05,636 Speaker 1: talking point to scare people, you know, and unfortunately, too 659 00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:10,596 Speaker 1: many Democrats you know, get scared, you know, by these 660 00:37:10,636 --> 00:37:14,076 Speaker 1: attacks from the right. The reality is is that I 661 00:37:14,116 --> 00:37:18,916 Speaker 1: think the movement and the party are most successful when 662 00:37:18,956 --> 00:37:22,236 Speaker 1: you stand up for what it is you truly believe 663 00:37:22,996 --> 00:37:25,796 Speaker 1: when you know it's like, don't cut corners, don't try 664 00:37:25,796 --> 00:37:31,036 Speaker 1: to be Republican light conservative light. That doesn't work, you know. Um, 665 00:37:31,636 --> 00:37:35,276 Speaker 1: we are most successful when we stand up and say, look, 666 00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:39,436 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, I'm for climate change and call it 667 00:37:39,476 --> 00:37:42,196 Speaker 1: a new Green Deal in the same way that you know, 668 00:37:42,356 --> 00:37:45,396 Speaker 1: I'm proud to be a member of the party that 669 00:37:45,516 --> 00:37:48,996 Speaker 1: started you know, social Security, you know, the New Deal, 670 00:37:49,156 --> 00:37:52,436 Speaker 1: and Medicare and Medicaid and the Civil Rights Act of 671 00:37:52,516 --> 00:37:55,876 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, you know, and the the Affordable Care Act. 672 00:37:56,236 --> 00:38:00,236 Speaker 1: That's who we are as progressives and as Democrats and 673 00:38:00,316 --> 00:38:02,716 Speaker 1: to really, you know, interact with the people of this 674 00:38:02,796 --> 00:38:06,916 Speaker 1: country and counter a narrative, I mean, don't be you know, look, 675 00:38:06,956 --> 00:38:09,196 Speaker 1: we got to be as tough as they are, as 676 00:38:09,196 --> 00:38:11,836 Speaker 1: creative as they are. I mean, hell, it's smarter than 677 00:38:11,876 --> 00:38:16,916 Speaker 1: they are. There's no question about that. They have mastered 678 00:38:16,916 --> 00:38:19,796 Speaker 1: the art of the big lie, and so we have 679 00:38:19,876 --> 00:38:23,956 Speaker 1: got to be effective in pushing back against it. And 680 00:38:24,036 --> 00:38:27,556 Speaker 1: that means that, you know, some older Democrats, I don't know, 681 00:38:27,836 --> 00:38:31,836 Speaker 1: centrist democrats have got to ask themselves. You know, you 682 00:38:31,836 --> 00:38:34,596 Speaker 1: claim to be a Democrat, you know understand what that 683 00:38:34,636 --> 00:38:37,396 Speaker 1: means in a historical context, and how do you apply 684 00:38:37,436 --> 00:38:40,636 Speaker 1: the historical context to the present day issues that we've 685 00:38:40,756 --> 00:38:44,036 Speaker 1: confront Yeah, So, in keeping with the theme a more 686 00:38:44,076 --> 00:38:49,516 Speaker 1: perfect future, I'm also struck by this tension in your 687 00:38:49,516 --> 00:38:55,596 Speaker 1: own journey as a public figure about balancing hope and honesty. 688 00:38:55,636 --> 00:38:58,196 Speaker 1: I mean, in part that's what we've been talking about here, 689 00:38:58,636 --> 00:39:01,436 Speaker 1: and the sort of narrative strategies of the Democratic Party 690 00:39:01,436 --> 00:39:03,996 Speaker 1: have probably leaned a lot more on unity and hope 691 00:39:04,116 --> 00:39:06,196 Speaker 1: and a little bit less on the honesty of what 692 00:39:06,276 --> 00:39:08,596 Speaker 1: our policies need to be and what it needs to 693 00:39:08,636 --> 00:39:10,916 Speaker 1: be to run on your values in a way that 694 00:39:11,116 --> 00:39:14,196 Speaker 1: you don't run away from them. And something in your 695 00:39:14,196 --> 00:39:17,756 Speaker 1: book really jumped off the page at me in twenty thirteen, 696 00:39:18,476 --> 00:39:22,396 Speaker 1: on that anniversary of the Selma March, and you describe 697 00:39:22,436 --> 00:39:26,356 Speaker 1: being there and giving a speech in Selma. You say 698 00:39:26,396 --> 00:39:30,036 Speaker 1: that just as you were about to close the speech 699 00:39:30,636 --> 00:39:35,876 Speaker 1: that you decided to end on a hopeful note when 700 00:39:35,916 --> 00:39:39,676 Speaker 1: you knew there would be irreparable harm done by the 701 00:39:39,716 --> 00:39:44,636 Speaker 1: Supreme Court. And as someone who I've admired in your 702 00:39:44,756 --> 00:39:48,636 Speaker 1: role for your use of your platform, I mean you've 703 00:39:48,716 --> 00:39:51,676 Speaker 1: opened essentially your term as Attorney General giving an internal 704 00:39:51,676 --> 00:39:54,956 Speaker 1: speech to the DLJ where you in the end describe 705 00:39:55,156 --> 00:39:57,556 Speaker 1: the nation as a nation of cowards for being unwilling 706 00:39:57,556 --> 00:39:59,796 Speaker 1: to confront a racial past and to deal with those 707 00:39:59,876 --> 00:40:04,396 Speaker 1: legacy effects today. In closing, just help us think about 708 00:40:04,476 --> 00:40:09,636 Speaker 1: how you balance this tension between the hopeful, aspirational rhetoric 709 00:40:09,716 --> 00:40:11,956 Speaker 1: of what the past teaches us and what we're capable 710 00:40:11,996 --> 00:40:16,236 Speaker 1: overcoming and the honesty that is required that typically our 711 00:40:16,316 --> 00:40:18,636 Speaker 1: young people are a little bit more on the honesty 712 00:40:18,676 --> 00:40:21,756 Speaker 1: side of the equation than the hopeful side. Yeah, you know, 713 00:40:21,796 --> 00:40:24,396 Speaker 1: it's interesting because I think what you're tapping into there 714 00:40:24,516 --> 00:40:29,156 Speaker 1: is like, what's leadership about? How do you share honesty 715 00:40:29,556 --> 00:40:37,476 Speaker 1: which can be daunting and can be action defeating. How 716 00:40:37,516 --> 00:40:42,036 Speaker 1: do you combine that with inspiring people to be engaged 717 00:40:42,836 --> 00:40:46,316 Speaker 1: even when the odds seem, you know, set against you. 718 00:40:46,316 --> 00:40:49,316 Speaker 1: You know, in twenty thirteen, Yeah, I understand what's going 719 00:40:49,396 --> 00:40:51,196 Speaker 1: to happen and what states are going to do with 720 00:40:51,196 --> 00:40:54,876 Speaker 1: this new freedom that the Supreme Court has inappropriately given 721 00:40:55,076 --> 00:40:58,516 Speaker 1: to them. But I want people to leave that church 722 00:40:58,596 --> 00:41:01,516 Speaker 1: with the sense that whatever it is that we're going 723 00:41:01,516 --> 00:41:05,876 Speaker 1: to have to confront, history tells us in this space 724 00:41:06,436 --> 00:41:10,916 Speaker 1: that every generation of Americans has met challenges to democracy 725 00:41:10,956 --> 00:41:13,796 Speaker 1: and that this generation can't be the first that does not. 726 00:41:14,436 --> 00:41:17,276 Speaker 1: You know, whether it is threats from outside the country, 727 00:41:17,356 --> 00:41:23,076 Speaker 1: you know, Nazis, or threats from within you know, white supremacists, 728 00:41:23,156 --> 00:41:26,356 Speaker 1: and you know other structural inequalities that are baked into 729 00:41:26,356 --> 00:41:30,276 Speaker 1: the system. You know, we have every generation has expanded 730 00:41:30,276 --> 00:41:35,076 Speaker 1: the franchise try to protect our democracy, and that this 731 00:41:35,156 --> 00:41:38,116 Speaker 1: generation can't be the one. This can't be the time 732 00:41:38,236 --> 00:41:41,636 Speaker 1: where we are not successful in that defense of an 733 00:41:41,636 --> 00:41:45,876 Speaker 1: expansion of democracy. So it's it's it's me. It's melding 734 00:41:46,116 --> 00:41:50,476 Speaker 1: that honesty with that notion of hope. Eric. So, I 735 00:41:50,476 --> 00:41:53,556 Speaker 1: mean since that moment in twenty thirteen, have you changed? 736 00:41:53,556 --> 00:41:55,476 Speaker 1: I mean you're talking about different kinds of leadership, and 737 00:41:55,876 --> 00:41:57,756 Speaker 1: here you've written this book and the work you're doing, 738 00:41:58,036 --> 00:42:02,276 Speaker 1: you're much more direct and addressing the hired truths the problems. 739 00:42:02,636 --> 00:42:04,676 Speaker 1: Is this a time for a different kind of leadership 740 00:42:04,716 --> 00:42:07,196 Speaker 1: for for calling out the problems and focusing on them 741 00:42:07,276 --> 00:42:09,996 Speaker 1: using the khalil you know equation in there. I think 742 00:42:09,996 --> 00:42:12,756 Speaker 1: it's a time to dial up to a greater degree 743 00:42:13,276 --> 00:42:17,916 Speaker 1: of honesty component because I think people need to understand 744 00:42:18,276 --> 00:42:21,836 Speaker 1: what's at stake, you know, And I don't mean to 745 00:42:21,916 --> 00:42:25,436 Speaker 1: scare people, but I mean the reality is that, you know, 746 00:42:25,516 --> 00:42:29,036 Speaker 1: you look at what happened in Europe in the twentieth century. 747 00:42:29,316 --> 00:42:33,476 Speaker 1: You know, fascism rose not because fascism was strong, but 748 00:42:33,596 --> 00:42:37,396 Speaker 1: because the defense of democracy was weak. And it doesn't 749 00:42:37,436 --> 00:42:39,956 Speaker 1: mean we'll have a dictator here in the United States, 750 00:42:39,956 --> 00:42:42,796 Speaker 1: but you could render meaningless our elections every two years, 751 00:42:42,836 --> 00:42:46,396 Speaker 1: every four years, every six years, unless we are willing 752 00:42:46,396 --> 00:42:49,956 Speaker 1: to stand up for our democracy. You know. Again, we 753 00:42:49,956 --> 00:42:52,116 Speaker 1: had a pretty good night a couple of two days ago. 754 00:42:52,516 --> 00:42:55,476 Speaker 1: All the election deniers who ran for Secretary of State, 755 00:42:56,236 --> 00:42:58,596 Speaker 1: a position that people never focused on before, all of 756 00:42:58,636 --> 00:43:02,636 Speaker 1: them were defeated. It's important a blatt of election deniers 757 00:43:02,836 --> 00:43:05,076 Speaker 1: were defeated at a whole range of levels, but some 758 00:43:05,196 --> 00:43:07,596 Speaker 1: did win at the local level, and so we got 759 00:43:07,596 --> 00:43:10,156 Speaker 1: to be concerned about that. And what it is that 760 00:43:10,196 --> 00:43:13,676 Speaker 1: they would do with that power is shown by what 761 00:43:13,716 --> 00:43:16,556 Speaker 1: they tried to do in January the sixth. That wasn't 762 00:43:16,596 --> 00:43:19,556 Speaker 1: you know, we talked about insurrection and people, I'm short 763 00:43:19,556 --> 00:43:22,276 Speaker 1: an insurrection. That was a cool attempt. That was an 764 00:43:22,316 --> 00:43:28,276 Speaker 1: attempt to capitate our democracy, to stop the peaceful transfer 765 00:43:28,276 --> 00:43:31,516 Speaker 1: of powers, drop peaceful, to just stop the transfer of power. 766 00:43:32,236 --> 00:43:36,556 Speaker 1: You know. That was an attempt to somehow stop the 767 00:43:36,596 --> 00:43:40,756 Speaker 1: American people from having their voices heard and deciding who 768 00:43:40,796 --> 00:43:42,996 Speaker 1: the next president of the United States was going to be. 769 00:43:43,396 --> 00:43:46,796 Speaker 1: I mean, they were all about doing things that we 770 00:43:46,836 --> 00:43:49,916 Speaker 1: see happen or have seen happen, you know, in other countries, 771 00:43:50,076 --> 00:43:53,556 Speaker 1: and because it happened in other countries, it can happen here. 772 00:43:53,836 --> 00:43:56,756 Speaker 1: That's right. Democracy is a fragile thing and if we 773 00:43:56,796 --> 00:43:59,996 Speaker 1: don't fight for it, we can lose it. Yeah. Yeah, Well, 774 00:43:59,996 --> 00:44:03,036 Speaker 1: I'm going to end this conversation with your own words, 775 00:44:03,676 --> 00:44:06,596 Speaker 1: which I think are a taste of that honesty. And 776 00:44:06,836 --> 00:44:08,676 Speaker 1: for those who haven't had a chance to read the book, 777 00:44:08,676 --> 00:44:11,036 Speaker 1: you can pick it up and read it yourself. You 778 00:44:11,196 --> 00:44:14,156 Speaker 1: say we are in the middle of a crisis. You say, now, 779 00:44:14,196 --> 00:44:18,316 Speaker 1: anyone who tells you progress is inevitable is mistaken. Demography 780 00:44:18,436 --> 00:44:22,956 Speaker 1: is not destiny. Moral arcs don't been with certainty. History 781 00:44:23,156 --> 00:44:25,676 Speaker 1: is not a Marvel movie. The good guys lose as 782 00:44:25,716 --> 00:44:29,236 Speaker 1: often as they win, and so we have to fight 783 00:44:29,636 --> 00:44:33,596 Speaker 1: for the things that matter. Thank you so much, Eric Holder, 784 00:44:33,756 --> 00:44:36,836 Speaker 1: little Ricky son of Sunny Holder, not to be confused 785 00:44:36,836 --> 00:44:42,796 Speaker 1: with Sunny Listen are We are really grateful that you 786 00:44:42,876 --> 00:44:44,836 Speaker 1: took some time to join us on some of my 787 00:44:44,836 --> 00:44:47,076 Speaker 1: best friends are all right. Thanks for having me, Ben, 788 00:44:47,076 --> 00:44:48,396 Speaker 1: thanks for having me clear it has been it's been 789 00:44:48,396 --> 00:44:58,276 Speaker 1: a lot of fun. Yeah, thank you so much, Eric Man. 790 00:44:58,436 --> 00:45:05,596 Speaker 1: What a great conversation. I mean, his love of his background, 791 00:45:05,716 --> 00:45:10,716 Speaker 1: his family, the journey he's been on is really strong 792 00:45:10,956 --> 00:45:14,716 Speaker 1: voice and honesty. It just was impressive. But there's one 793 00:45:14,796 --> 00:45:19,476 Speaker 1: thing that he made reference to about that TV show 794 00:45:19,516 --> 00:45:21,676 Speaker 1: that none of us have seen and may never see, 795 00:45:22,116 --> 00:45:26,436 Speaker 1: about the political pressures of being the first black attorney general. 796 00:45:26,476 --> 00:45:28,876 Speaker 1: And I was really curious. I didn't I didn't get 797 00:45:28,876 --> 00:45:31,036 Speaker 1: a chance to ask it during the interview, but I 798 00:45:31,116 --> 00:45:35,396 Speaker 1: was really curious about what exactly he was talking about. Okay, 799 00:45:35,436 --> 00:45:37,116 Speaker 1: so this is the show that he made with our 800 00:45:37,156 --> 00:45:39,636 Speaker 1: friend Sasha Penn that that they made a pilot but 801 00:45:39,636 --> 00:45:42,196 Speaker 1: it didn't go to series. That's what you're talking about, Yeah, yeah, 802 00:45:42,236 --> 00:45:44,556 Speaker 1: and I kind of asked you maybe you could talk 803 00:45:44,596 --> 00:45:47,836 Speaker 1: to Sasha and find out I talked to Sasha about it. 804 00:45:47,876 --> 00:45:49,756 Speaker 1: You know, this is you talked to it. Okay, this 805 00:45:49,916 --> 00:45:52,036 Speaker 1: is CBS. You know the murder she wrote stations, so 806 00:45:52,076 --> 00:45:54,316 Speaker 1: they didn't they couldn't they couldn't pick it up. Yeah. 807 00:45:54,316 --> 00:45:57,956 Speaker 1: So the political pressures about being the first black attorney general. 808 00:45:58,196 --> 00:46:01,476 Speaker 1: So the show was like working with these ideas that 809 00:46:01,876 --> 00:46:05,236 Speaker 1: you know, he had the staff that had been there 810 00:46:05,276 --> 00:46:09,356 Speaker 1: through multiple administrations, and when they weren't supporting him this, 811 00:46:09,556 --> 00:46:12,316 Speaker 1: you know, this black ag has to worry like are 812 00:46:12,316 --> 00:46:14,956 Speaker 1: they not supporting me because they disagree with my policies 813 00:46:15,636 --> 00:46:19,116 Speaker 1: or because I'm black? You mean, like that the same 814 00:46:19,196 --> 00:46:21,796 Speaker 1: kind of stuff I have to deal with when my 815 00:46:21,876 --> 00:46:24,476 Speaker 1: students give me bad, bad marks. I'm like, is it 816 00:46:24,596 --> 00:46:28,116 Speaker 1: no joking? Yeah, no, it goes deeper. There isn't a 817 00:46:28,116 --> 00:46:31,196 Speaker 1: Barack Obama character, meaning the president at that time is 818 00:46:31,196 --> 00:46:34,036 Speaker 1: a white man who appointed him to the job because 819 00:46:34,036 --> 00:46:36,636 Speaker 1: they needed ratings. Has too much Blackfoot television. You can 820 00:46:36,716 --> 00:46:38,996 Speaker 1: have either a black president or a black tangent, or 821 00:46:39,036 --> 00:46:41,116 Speaker 1: you can't have both. Maybe not because I didn't get 822 00:46:41,156 --> 00:46:44,716 Speaker 1: picked up the series, but when he's like investigating some mouthfeasance, 823 00:46:44,796 --> 00:46:48,076 Speaker 1: possibly by the president. Again, there's a sort of racial tension, 824 00:46:48,396 --> 00:46:50,516 Speaker 1: but I think where race maybe comes up the most 825 00:46:51,076 --> 00:46:53,916 Speaker 1: is that they are all these threats on his life. 826 00:46:54,516 --> 00:46:57,916 Speaker 1: And when Sasha was researching the show, he said that 827 00:46:57,956 --> 00:47:00,196 Speaker 1: he talked to the person and assigned to protect Erk 828 00:47:00,276 --> 00:47:03,396 Speaker 1: Colder and he was like, yeah, man, they came all 829 00:47:03,556 --> 00:47:05,516 Speaker 1: the time. You know, he had not seen this man, 830 00:47:05,796 --> 00:47:11,556 Speaker 1: oh damn. Yeah. Wow. Hence, political pressure is like to 831 00:47:11,796 --> 00:47:14,756 Speaker 1: just to like shut up and dribble for the attorney general. 832 00:47:15,236 --> 00:47:17,676 Speaker 1: But you know, maybe maybe most importantly so that show 833 00:47:17,716 --> 00:47:20,996 Speaker 1: didn't get picked up. But you know, when Sasha is 834 00:47:21,036 --> 00:47:24,156 Speaker 1: writing the show for us, you know about some of 835 00:47:24,156 --> 00:47:26,556 Speaker 1: my best friends, are we're gonna get picked up the 836 00:47:26,676 --> 00:47:30,476 Speaker 1: series all got it? Got it? Yes? Yeah, because nobody 837 00:47:30,556 --> 00:47:34,516 Speaker 1: is trying to kill us. Well, you know the first 838 00:47:34,516 --> 00:47:36,316 Speaker 1: thing is I think it won't be on CBS. It's 839 00:47:36,356 --> 00:47:38,396 Speaker 1: gonna be on cable. That's gonna be the thing that 840 00:47:38,436 --> 00:47:41,516 Speaker 1: gets us going. You mean, like the tub channel, No, 841 00:47:41,756 --> 00:47:48,956 Speaker 1: maybe cook us up? Maybe stars all right, all right, 842 00:47:49,396 --> 00:47:52,236 Speaker 1: all right, man, well listen, I love that Sasha got 843 00:47:52,276 --> 00:47:54,716 Speaker 1: to be part of this episode, and of course I 844 00:47:55,396 --> 00:48:02,396 Speaker 1: love you man. I love you Too. Some of My 845 00:48:02,436 --> 00:48:05,756 Speaker 1: Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries. The 846 00:48:05,836 --> 00:48:08,996 Speaker 1: show is written and hosted by me Khalil Dubron Muhammad 847 00:48:09,156 --> 00:48:12,356 Speaker 1: and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by John 848 00:48:12,356 --> 00:48:17,036 Speaker 1: Asante and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is Jasmine Morris, our 849 00:48:17,076 --> 00:48:20,636 Speaker 1: engineer is Amanda k Juan, and our executive producer is 850 00:48:20,676 --> 00:48:24,916 Speaker 1: Mia LaBelle. At Pushkin thanks to Leta Mullad, Julia Barton, 851 00:48:25,276 --> 00:48:31,276 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, Carly Nigliori, John Schnars, Gretta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg. 852 00:48:31,836 --> 00:48:35,556 Speaker 1: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the 853 00:48:35,716 --> 00:48:39,596 Speaker 1: Brilliant Avery R. Young, from his album Tubman. You definitely 854 00:48:39,636 --> 00:48:42,356 Speaker 1: want to check out his music at his website Avery R. 855 00:48:42,436 --> 00:48:45,676 Speaker 1: Young dot com. You can find Pushkin on all social 856 00:48:45,716 --> 00:48:48,876 Speaker 1: platforms at pushkin pods and you can sign up for 857 00:48:48,916 --> 00:48:53,236 Speaker 1: our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, 858 00:48:53,516 --> 00:48:57,556 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 859 00:48:57,596 --> 00:49:00,596 Speaker 1: like to listen. And if you like our show, please 860 00:49:00,636 --> 00:49:03,436 Speaker 1: give us a five star rating and a review and listen. 861 00:49:03,436 --> 00:49:04,836 Speaker 1: Even if you don't like it, give it a five 862 00:49:04,876 --> 00:49:07,796 Speaker 1: star rating and a review and please tell all of 863 00:49:07,836 --> 00:49:22,596 Speaker 1: your best friends about it. Thank you. That's gonna be 864 00:49:22,676 --> 00:49:24,076 Speaker 1: like the hardest thing that you all do. How do 865 00:49:24,156 --> 00:49:26,716 Speaker 1: you keep Khalil quiet for fifteen seconds? He wasn't really 866 00:49:26,796 --> 00:49:30,596 Speaker 1: quiet there. You could hear you with moving around. I mean, like, like, Khalil, 867 00:49:30,636 --> 00:49:34,796 Speaker 1: don't say anything for fifteen seconds. That's clothed. Damn near impossible, right,