1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: So I picked up a Tesco plastic bag, um some 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: some clear soft plastic that was wrapped around a bit 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of lettuce and a Lentil puff wrapper, and I glued 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: or taped tiny digital trackers into each of them, and 5 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: I deposited them at three different Tesco stores in London. 6 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: And then I spent the next two weeks glued to 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: my phone from Bloomberg News and I heard radio it's 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: the big take. I'm West Coastsova Tidday. You know that 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: plastic bag which she tossed into the recycling then what 10 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: really happens to that thing? Like a lot of people, 11 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: I try to do my part by recycling, but I 12 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 1: always do wonder how much, if any of that plastic 13 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: I dutifully placed at the curb each week he has 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: ever really turned into something else. The good news is 15 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: today's show answers that question. The bad news you are 16 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: not going to like the answer. No one voted for 17 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: more plastic in our lives, but we are buried in 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: plastic because it's cheap. That's Judith inc. She's a former 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: administrator with the US Environmental Protection Agency and now she's 20 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: president of Beyond Plastics. That's a group in Vermont that 21 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: advocates for less plastic waste. Plastic production will double in 22 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: the next twenty years, and at the same time, plastic 23 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: recycling has been an abysmal failure. I asked Judith for 24 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: a quick explainer on why that is. Plastics traditionally have 25 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: been made from chemicals and oil, but now it's mostly 26 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: made from chemicals and ethane, which is a waste product 27 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: of gas hydrofracking. So what once was a waste that 28 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: was flared in to the atmosphere is now in a 29 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: few instances, being captured and sent by pipeline two new 30 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:14,800 Speaker 1: gigantic plastic production facilities with the funny name of ethane crackers. 31 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: So the gas is heated at a really high temperature 32 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: and cracked, and then billions of little plastic pellets are 33 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: created that's then used to make single use plastic packaging. 34 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: Everyone should keep recycling paper, metal, glass, and only plastic 35 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: that has the little tiny number on the bottom, number 36 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: one or number two. Those are resin codes. But most 37 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 1: plastics in the United States does not get recycled. So 38 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: now we see a massive amount of plastic waste going 39 00:02:54,720 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: to Indonesia, Vietnam, the Philippines, Turkey and more recently Africa. 40 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: You have talked about how only plastics that have that 41 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: number one or number two in the little recycling triangle 42 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 1: that we see on all the plastics um that only 43 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 1: those are recycled. So why don't we just make all 44 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,399 Speaker 1: the plastic out of oaks. We could. We have to 45 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 1: create a law to require it though, you know, and 46 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: I want to explain why we have such an abysmally 47 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: low recycling rate for plastics. If you have a newspaper, 48 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: you can put that newspaper when you're done reading it 49 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: into your recycling bin. Chances are it will get recycled 50 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: into a new newspaper or a cardboard box, and it 51 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: can be recycled, not forever, but a significant time. It 52 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: can go around. Aluminum can can get recycled into aluminium can. 53 00:03:55,280 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 1: The challenge with plastics is there are hundreds of different 54 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: types of plastics. Um They're all different resins, they all 55 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: have different toxic chemical additives and different colorance. So think 56 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: of your own home. You might have a bright orange 57 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: hard plastic detergent bottle near your your washing machine, and 58 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: then your refrigerator might have a squeezeable clear soft ketchup bottle. 59 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: You can't recycle those two types of plastics together. Um, 60 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 1: the recycling process for plastics just doesn't work because it's 61 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: such a heterogeneous waste stream. So number one and number 62 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: two plastics do have a market, particularly beverage bottles that 63 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: have deposits on them, because that material is kept separate 64 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: and clean. So your idea is a good one, but 65 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: it would be fought vigorous sleep by Big Plastic because 66 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: they want to be able to make any kind of plastic, 67 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 1: any color, any chemical additive and sell it to you 68 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: and I. The problem is once they sell it to us, 69 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: their responsibility ends, and then you and I as taxpayers 70 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: are stuck with the cost of properly collecting, processing, and 71 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: disposing of all of this. Judith, thanks thanks for coming 72 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: on the show by pleasure. So if a lot of 73 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,160 Speaker 1: the plastic we throw away can't be recycled, where does 74 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: it go? Kitch chollel and investigative reporter for Bloomberg, said 75 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: out to find the answer to that very question, and 76 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: he joins me now from London. Hey Wes So Kate, 77 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: you and voice like Muskva, your Bloomberg colleague, actually set 78 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: out to find out what actually happens that bag when 79 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 1: you put it in the recycler, and you went about 80 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 1: it in a clever way. Can you describe what you did? Well? 81 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: We we had an enticing mystery to unravel, really, which is, 82 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: you know what happens to this stuff once we put 83 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 1: it in the trash can? And you know, I had 84 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: I did some researching online and I made a few 85 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,919 Speaker 1: phone calls, and it was incredibly difficult to get a 86 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,720 Speaker 1: clear answer that no one really seemed to know, not 87 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: the waste companies, not the consumer companies that sell plastic goods. 88 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: It was all a bit uncertain. And I've heard rumors 89 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,919 Speaker 1: from environmental activists that most of it, most of the 90 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,159 Speaker 1: UK's supermarket trash goes to Poland, or a significant portion 91 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: of it goes to Poland. Um. But you know, I 92 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: couldn't be certain. I figured the only way to know 93 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: for sure, the only way to really get that answer 94 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: would be to track it. Yeah, I wanted to look 95 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: at Tesco, which is the UK's biggest supermarkets chain, and 96 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: it also is one that makes a big play of 97 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: its recyclability to recycle soft plastics, which are really hard 98 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: to recycle anywhere. Are they so hard to recycle soft plastic, 99 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,159 Speaker 1: you know it's it's because they are a mess of 100 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: different um chemicals and products all blended together for specific purposes. 101 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 1: There's not one type of plastic. There's you know, several 102 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 1: different kinds, and each of them contain different additives, and 103 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: all those additives have to be either taken out um 104 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: or combined together to make a good quality recycled plastic. 105 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: If you just take a bunch of soft plastic stuff 106 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: and put it together and try to recycle it, what 107 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: comes out is unusable good um. So it all has 108 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: to be separated, It all has to be has have 109 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 1: all chemical chemical additives cleverly taken out, and it's a 110 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: really difficult process. It's a reason why only about one 111 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: or two percent of that stuff, even in the in 112 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 1: Europe gets recycled. So I picked up a Tesco plastic 113 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: bag um some some clear soft plastic that was wrapped 114 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,440 Speaker 1: around a bit of lettuce and a lentil puff wrapper, 115 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 1: and I glued or taped tiny digital trackers into each 116 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: of them, and I deposited them at three different Tesco 117 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 1: stores in London, and then I spent the next two 118 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: weeks glued on my phone. When you say you deposited 119 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: them at the stores. They were recycling bins out the 120 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: store where you put it in, and then the assumption 121 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: is they're going to take it away and recycling. Exactly, 122 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: they they invited their customers to to to bring back 123 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: their soft plastics and put them in these special white 124 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: bins displayed prominently at the front of the store with 125 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: the idea that they would be recycled and so the 126 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: so the assumption is they're going to be taken someplace 127 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: in London or close by and there's a recycling facility. 128 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: None of us really knows. Frankly, none of us is 129 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 1: really asking that many questions because we're just assuming that 130 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: somebody else is going to take care of this problem 131 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: for us. But the natural assumption is that your plastic 132 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: packaging is going to get turned into new plastic packaging. 133 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 1: That's what most people understand by recycling. You know, my 134 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: bottle is going to become a new bottle, my crisp 135 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: wrapper will become a new soft plastic wrapper. Turns out 136 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 1: that wasn't the case. So so exactly where did you 137 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: find you've keaped glued all these old trackers in and 138 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: sent them on their way, And then what did you do. 139 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: I watched them ping across Europe. Basically, the first one 140 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,960 Speaker 1: circled the M twenty five, which is a ring road 141 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: around London, and then disappeared in the middle of the 142 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: Thames Um. To this day, I have no idea what 143 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: happened to it. I can only assume that it was 144 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 1: shaken off a lorry or something and and just made 145 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: its way into the waterway. But the other two um 146 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,439 Speaker 1: also circled d M twenty five, and then they went 147 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 1: to the UK's biggest port, which is at Felix s 148 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 1: though a place called Harridge Um. And then and I 149 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: could see them boarding a ferry terminal and they were 150 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 1: shipped over to the Netherlands, both of them together. They 151 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: were in the same load. They weren't in the same load. 152 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 1: They took the almost exact same routes at a couple 153 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 1: of days apart. So there was obviously a network here 154 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,559 Speaker 1: of of of trash coming from the TESCO system going 155 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: through this this specific port and then going to the 156 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: same place. And I watched these things ping their way 157 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: across Europe. They quickly went through the Netherlands. They crossed 158 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,920 Speaker 1: Germany west to east in the space of about twenty 159 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: four hours, and then both trackers landed at the exact 160 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:07,040 Speaker 1: same spot in Poland, which is a small town called Jellonnagora. 161 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: After the break, my conversation with kitsch Ale continues. Now Poland, 162 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: Why Poland? That's that's the big question, you know, why 163 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: why would you expend all these resources shipping plastic garbage 164 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: from London to Poland? And the simple answer is that 165 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: it's much much cheaper to dispose of plastic waste Poland 166 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: that is in the UK. Now is the assumption that 167 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 1: that was the end of this experiment, that that is 168 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:59,599 Speaker 1: where these plastic ams wound up? Yeah, I had a 169 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: feeling wasn't the end of the journey. We actually, me 170 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: and my colleague Void check we we we visited the 171 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: site in Jelonne a Goa, which is a vast warehouse 172 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,160 Speaker 1: with plastic piled up outside um and it was pretty 173 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: clear that they weren't doing the recycling in there. You know, 174 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: it didn't have a huge amounts of industrial machinery or 175 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,439 Speaker 1: smokestacks coming out. What it looked like was it was 176 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: a massive storage depot and we learned that that that 177 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 1: actually was the case. Jelenaga is a stopover points of 178 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: plastic on the way somewhere else, and so both bits 179 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: of plastic that ended up there stayed there for a 180 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: couple of weeks and then moved on somewhere else. I 181 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: imagine you went to Tesco and showed them your findings. 182 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: What did they say. Tesco stance is that they have 183 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:48,439 Speaker 1: a relationship with a supplier who handles this waste for them, 184 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: that they regularly check the supplier to ensure that the 185 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: waste is being disposed of properly, and that all the 186 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 1: garbage that they collect is you know, is sent to 187 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,200 Speaker 1: a recycling center as best they can work out. So 188 00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: what they do is they contract with another supplier and 189 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: then the supplier certifies to them that it's being handled correctly, 190 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: and from there tescos view is that the responsibility for 191 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: the plastic has been satisfied. Exactly Kit you happened to 192 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: put these trackers in uh Tesco bag. But we should 193 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: say that Tesco is just one of thousands and thousands 194 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: of places where you can find these bags that everyone, 195 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: every retailer, everyone uses them. Yeah, that's right. Test Tesco 196 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: isn't the only company doing this. In fact, the idea 197 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: of soft plastic recycling came from the major U. S. 198 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: Supermarket chains, where you can still there are places where 199 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: you can deliver your soft plastics outside store. It's an 200 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: appealing solution because it means that they can attempt to 201 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: affect change without relying on local government or local companies 202 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 1: to collect the waste for them. It gets delivered to 203 00:12:56,600 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: their doorstep. So was that the end of the journey 204 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: through these trackers or did they continue to move on 205 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: from Poland to other countries. The trackers continued to work, 206 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 1: and we watched one of them travel all the way 207 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: across West Poland's through to the east to another small 208 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: town where they were delivered to an industrial facility and 209 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 1: then disappeared. We suspect they were burned for energy there, 210 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 1: although we don't know for sure. And the other tracker 211 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: took a much more interesting routes. It went dead for 212 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: several weeks and then it finally pinged its location in 213 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: southern Turkey. In southern Turkey, yeah, and that's where it 214 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: met its end. The tracker, at least, I wish I 215 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: could say that I knew that was the case, but 216 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 1: we again, we we sent a reporter to the site 217 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: where where the tracker was pinging its location from and 218 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: there was a huge pile of terrible quality mixed plastic 219 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: dumped in a yard I say dumped. We spoke to 220 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 1: someone who said that they had bought the plastic from 221 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: a waste proka and they were planning to sell it 222 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: on for recycling purposes. So it could have gone to 223 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: a recycler in Turkey. Um, it could have been exported 224 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: again to a recycler in Asia. UM. Frankly, no one 225 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: knows for sure. We'll never know the answer. It could 226 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: also have just been buried or dumped or burned. We 227 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: don't know. Kitchell, thanks for coming on the show. Thanks 228 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: a lot coming up. That plastic bags journey doesn't end there. 229 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: That's after the break. I'm joined by Matt Campbell, Asia 230 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: editor for Bloomberg Business Week. He is based in Singapore. Matt, 231 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: thanks so much for being here. Thanks so much for 232 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: having me with Now. We've been talking today about the 233 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 1: very strange and convoluted path that plastics, that plastic ballow 234 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: of your throwaway takes throughout the world after you put 235 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 1: it in what you think has recycling been uh and 236 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: often winds up in a big pile halfway around the world, 237 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: and you went out to actually see what that looks 238 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: like when all of this trash reaches the end of 239 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: the line and you went to Thailand, can you just 240 00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: describe what you saw, because it is really something that's 241 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: right west. So, something that I didn't know about the 242 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: plastic industry and really the waste industry generally, is there 243 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: is a huge long haul waste export trade. So I 244 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: visited recycling facilities around Thailand, mostly in the industrial belt 245 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: that extends from Bangkok along the coast, where there is 246 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: very large and very profitable recycling industry that is based partly, 247 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: not entirely, but to a substantial effect on imported waste 248 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: from elsewhere in the world. So these are huge loads 249 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 1: of plastic that come from in the main wealthier countries 250 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: and are sent to Southeast Asia to be dealt with MATT. So, 251 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: when you went to Thailand and you saw the effects 252 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: of all of these bottles and other uh throwaway containers 253 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: that ended up in Thailand, what did you see? What 254 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: did it actually look like? Well? I did get some 255 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: glimpses of what the recycling industry really looks like in practice. 256 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: There was one moment which was really kind of unforgettable 257 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: seeing a woman, a middle aged thie woman in sort 258 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: of covered up head to toe guests to avoid getting 259 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,800 Speaker 1: gunk on her, just sitting in a huge pile of 260 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: plastic bottles methodically peeling away the labels. And the reason 261 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: for that is that when these things do go into 262 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: a plastic facility where they have to be melted down 263 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: and reconstituted into new packaging, you don't want anything extraneous 264 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: on them. So if you do have someone they're peeling 265 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: the labels off, you can get more for each kilogram 266 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: of plastic. A lot of it, First of all, do 267 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: not get recycled in any way. The vast majority of 268 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 1: plastic waste in the world is not recycled. It's just 269 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,639 Speaker 1: dumped or burned. And why is that. There are a 270 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:31,199 Speaker 1: number of reasons for it. One is infrastructure. You know, 271 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: in many developing countries in particular, they're not enough recycling 272 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:40,439 Speaker 1: infrastructure to handle the volumes of plastic that The plastic industry, 273 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,720 Speaker 1: which if you like, comprises consumer companies you know, Coke, Pepsi, 274 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: as well as the petrochemical companies that actually produce the 275 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: raw materials for plastic, big oil, you know, Exxon Shell, BP, 276 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: they've pumped more plastic into the world than there are 277 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: recycling plants to handle, so a huge amount never recycled. Now, 278 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: you said that a lot of the countries where this 279 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 1: plastic ends up don't have enough recycling capability to actually 280 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: handle all of it. Why is it then that they 281 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: keep taking more and more of it if they don't 282 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: have a way to actually recycl it into something else. 283 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: To understand how all of this plastic waste ended up 284 00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: in the places where it is now, which are largely 285 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: in South East Asia, you have to go back a 286 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:33,040 Speaker 1: few years. So for the last oh thirty years or so, 287 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: China was the major destination for exports of waste, plastic 288 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:41,240 Speaker 1: and all other kinds of waste. There was a huge 289 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: recycling industry in China. A lot of companies had sprung 290 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: up to deal with imported plastic from places like the US. 291 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: A lot of people got very rich doing this. But 292 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: in sen the Chinese government decided that it didn't want 293 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: to have this industry anymore, that it was causing too 294 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: many problems, too much pollution. Uh, and they shut it 295 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,639 Speaker 1: down pretty much overnight. Uh. You know, And when China 296 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: decides to do something, they can do it in a 297 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: in a very comprehensive and effective way. So exports to 298 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: China essentially disappeared over the course of a few months. 299 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: But all that plastic, all that waste, still had to 300 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: go somewhere. It's like a balloon. If you press it 301 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: down in one place, it'll pop up somewhere else. And 302 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: the somewhere turned out to be Southeast Asia, especially actually Malaysia, 303 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: very close to where I'm sitting now, where there was 304 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: a huge surge of plastic coming into kind of fly 305 00:19:35,960 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: by night recycling factories that it all popped up very 306 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:46,120 Speaker 1: very quickly, often unlicensed, unregulated, totally illegal, and also Thailand, Indonesia, 307 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: Vietnam and other countries around the region because you needed 308 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: to send this stuff to places with minimal environmental standards, 309 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: cheap labor, and in many cases officials who were easy 310 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: to pay off, so that if you did get in trouble, 311 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: you could still keep bringing in these loads of waste. 312 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: You met a man uh I believe in Bangkok who 313 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: had a recycling plant move in right next door. Can 314 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: you describe sort of what happened to his life after 315 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: that happened. This was a really remarkable experience. I met 316 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: a man in the in the Bangkok suburbs named Venue 317 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: jerramancom and Venue has a house on a quiet street 318 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 1: and in what was a storage yard next to his 319 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,879 Speaker 1: house was suddenly turned into a small scale plastic recycling plant. 320 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,160 Speaker 1: And the and so the factor is right here, where 321 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,479 Speaker 1: would the fumes come from? From this side? Pomp from 322 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: this hole and this while oh I see okay, yeah yeah, oh, 323 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: and they have an extractor fan. Environmental groups have found 324 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,200 Speaker 1: a really terrible environmental effects around plastic recycling facilities all 325 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: over the world. So in n use case, he suddenly 326 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: noticed these very intense, acrid fumes floating into his house 327 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,200 Speaker 1: and particularly alarming, he started finding dead birds on his lawn. 328 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: When you would find dead pigeons, was it around here? 329 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: It's just it's all over the front of the house. 330 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: So if this is killing pigeons, it's pretty bad. Yes, 331 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: it's going to kill my family too. So I have 332 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: to let it go, all right and leave this house. Yes, 333 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: to leave the house. He and his wife began to 334 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: get sick. They got headaches, nausea. He developed a red, 335 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: itchy patch of skin just below his nostrils, and it 336 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 1: was very clear to him that what had happened was 337 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: a result of this plastic plant operating. How I should 338 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: say that the company that runs the plastic plants as 339 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: always denied this. They say they comply with environmental regulations 340 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,639 Speaker 1: and and that they responded to the news complaints. But 341 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: what he did tell me at his home, which is 342 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 1: now sold, was exactly in line with what environmental experts 343 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: would expect to see from a poorly ventilated plastic waste 344 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: recycling facility. Even since this morning this morning, still have 345 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: a strong semeal strong smell this morning. Yes, inside the 346 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: house when you woke up. No, no, no, I I 347 00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:27,200 Speaker 1: can alsop here right, Oh, I see, I come here 348 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: and I play it over in the house and inside 349 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: the house has a strong smell of the chemistry. Wow, okay, 350 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: So I need to I need to use the inside 351 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:44,159 Speaker 1: fan open and roid out to mega ventilation. So what 352 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: is Thailand's government doing about this? As you can imagine, 353 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: being a dumping ground for waste from other countries richer 354 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: countries is not popular. It's very rarely popular, and in 355 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: a number of countries in this region in Southeast Asia, 356 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 1: there have been political efforts to restrict plastic imports. So 357 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: Thailand is no exception. It is in the process of 358 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: bringing in a phased ban on plastic waste imports that will, 359 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 1: based on the current model they're looking at, take effect from. 360 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: It will be fairly strict there there won't be a 361 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: lot of em exceptions to it. There don't appear to 362 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: be many loopholes, which is quite different from what we've 363 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: seen in some other Southeast Asian countries. But I think 364 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 1: it's it's important to remember it's very hard to enforce this, 365 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 1: and it's very hard to enforce it in countries that 366 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: don't have the kind of capabilities that the US or 367 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: European governments do. There's a lot of illegal waste shipment, 368 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,679 Speaker 1: there's a lot of corruption and bribery throughout this region. 369 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,119 Speaker 1: And even if a country like Thailand does succeed in 370 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 1: curbing plastic imports, you may see another example of the 371 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: balloon phenomenon I mentioned earlier. All of this ust has 372 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: to go somewhere. It cannot be recycled in the countries 373 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,880 Speaker 1: where it is generated because there isn't enough capacity, so 374 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: it may go next to me and mar or Lous 375 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 1: or or places in Africa that have even less capacity 376 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 1: to deal with it. In a country like Thailand. Matt 377 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: thanks so much for taking the time. Of course, very 378 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: happy to it, and you can find more reporting from 379 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's journalists kitchellel and Matthew Campbell on Bloomberg dot com. 380 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take. 381 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 1: It's the daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. 382 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 1: For more shows from my Heart Radio, visit the I 383 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app podcasts, or wherever do you listen. Read 384 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: today's story and subscribe to our daily newsletter at Bloomberg 385 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 1: dot com. Slash Big Take, and we'd love to hear 386 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: from you. Email us with questions or comments to Big 387 00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: Take at Bloomberg dot net. 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