WEBVTT - Stigmata: Madness or Miracle? 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.480 Hey, just a quick note before we kick this episode off. 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.720 We actually had to re record one segment of it. Yeah, 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:11.640 the beginning of the episode is actually recorded after the 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.280 second part of the episode, but we managed to put 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:17.279 it all together, especially with the help of our great 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.000 producer Noel, and we just wanted to let you know 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:22.239 there might be some contextual stuff that seems a little 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.360 weird because of the time frame, but when we talk 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:29.680 about the stigmatic padre Pio, there is some stuff that 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:33.519 was said before and then after and it makes sense though. 0:00:33.560 --> 0:00:35.720 We've listened to it and feel pretty good about it. Yeah, 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:36.920 so you should be able to roll with it. But 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:39.560 just in case there are any questions, that's what's uped 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.600 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:50.000 Works dot com. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.440 your Mind. My name is Robert lamp Hey, I'm Christian Sager, 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.000 and this is part two of our exploration of the 0:00:56.120 --> 0:01:01.160 stig Mata. Part one dealt primarily with patient zero for 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:04.840 the stigmata St. Francis of us Easy. Yeah, as we 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.960 talked about in the first episode, he is primarily recognized 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.440 as as the stigmatic of history. But today we're going 0:01:11.480 --> 0:01:16.759 to talk about just stigmata beyond St. Francis, sort of 0:01:16.880 --> 0:01:21.039 the pop culture that we've seen a stigmata take place in, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:26.080 but also some more explanations that are somewhat scientific for 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.440 what what's possibly going on here? Why are there so 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.399 many people who are bleeding from these very specific areas. Yeah, 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:36.839 the first episode dealt more directly with just the religious 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:40.200 idea of the supernatural idea of these wounds of Christ 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:45.679 manifesting in the flesh, and then the historical um as 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.000 well as biological aspects trying to figure out what disease 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:51.520 Francis might have suffered from. And this is going to 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.680 go in a more um psychological direction, right, there's other 0:01:55.720 --> 0:02:02.160 explanations beyond pathogen's viruses, back area whatever that could potentially 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.640 cause this for somebody. So somebody really thinks that they've 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:08.520 been bestowed the wounds of Christ on their body. But 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:11.840 before we get into the psychology of of the matter, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:15.359 let's discuss some of the pop culture aspects here, because 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:17.720 we didn't even have time to to mention any of 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.960 them in the previous episode. Yeah, So the big one 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:23.840 that I always think of is that movie Stigmata with 0:02:24.560 --> 0:02:30.119 Gabriel Byrne and I always forget her name. Um, Rosanna Arquette, 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:35.239 it's the sister Patricia Arquette. Yeah, yeah, Um, she's a stigmatic, 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:39.880 and contrary to a lot of the history of stigmatics, 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.040 in that movie, it's portrayed as being like a like 0:02:43.080 --> 0:02:47.320 a bad omen like it's somehow I can't remember, it's 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.640 been a long time, but somehow her being a stigmatic 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:55.040 is like going to open a gateway for Satan to 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:58.079 come to the material plane or something like that. Gabriel 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:00.960 Burne is like an accult investigator for the Catholic Church 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:03.720 and his I think his job is to go around 0:03:03.720 --> 0:03:10.119 the world and investigate mystical occurrences like stigmata. I think 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.600 he also like maybe at one point finds like a 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:16.480 statue of Christ that's bleeding. Um, But his job is 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.320 to go and investigate the Patricia Arqueat incident. It's so 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.799 weird that they would cast it as this demonic device 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:27.440 rather than exploring it more as Yeah, whereas in every 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.720 other instance in in history it's it's been seen as 0:03:31.720 --> 0:03:34.040 a holy thing, well most instances. Yeah, I mean, it 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.760 seems like you would just have your protagonists suffer from 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.280 the stigmata and then battle your demonic characters. And I 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.720 don't know, maybe that's where the films of Landing any life, 0:03:41.720 --> 0:03:43.680 but it's it's hard for me to remember, but I 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.760 did before we recorded this. Go and watch the trailer 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.960 again on YouTube, and there is a moment where they're 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.760 surprised that she's not devout of faith that I think, 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:56.560 like they're on a train in New York City or 0:03:56.600 --> 0:03:58.920 something like that, and Gabriel burn shocked when he finds 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:03.280 out that she she's like an atheist or something like that. Uh, well, 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.320 you know, I have a hard time remembering exactly where 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.440 I encountered the stigmata for the first time, in fiction 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.640 or otherwise, because I certainly didn't grow up Catholic, but 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:16.960 I must have ran across it somewhere. I'm sure it's 0:04:17.000 --> 0:04:19.240 one of those things that's used as a trope throughout 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.080 horror literature and movies without even actually being referred to 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.120 as stigmata. A lot of situations just the idea of 0:04:26.160 --> 0:04:30.159 bleeding from open source, spontaneously or from your eyes. But 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:32.839 the one that I remember is the I can't remember 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:35.560 the name of the episode, but it's an X Files 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:40.719 episode where Molder and Scully are chasing after a serial 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:45.920 killer who's killing fake stigmatics or like, um, sort of 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:51.240 like tent revivalist preachers, and they fake stigmata with ketchup packets. 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:54.120 I think, and um that the serial killer is going 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:57.640 around the country killing them until he finds an actual 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:02.880 stigmatic ball exactly. And so are they because they switch roles. 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:05.120 Molder's the one who doesn't believe in it and Scully 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.440 does because she has the religious background. Now is the 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.560 killer in this is Is he himself a stigmata? He's not. 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:16.520 It's very very strange from what I remember. I think 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:20.200 he owns a factory, some kind of tire car factory 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:22.520 or something like that, and he he goes on a 0:05:22.560 --> 0:05:25.000 Their explanation is like that he goes on a trip 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.520 to the Middle East and he comes back and all 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:32.280 of a sudden he's just like basically possessed with with 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:36.039 the the need to kill stigmat Alright, So a little 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.840 Jerusalem syndrome in there, a little just blue collar guy 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:43.200 going off by deep yeah kind of yeah, you know. Now, 0:05:43.240 --> 0:05:47.520 I do remember, as a fairly young reader reading Philip K. 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:53.440 Dix The for Stigmata of Palmer Eldrick Stigmata I can't 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.359 remember how many stigmata are reference in the title, but 0:05:56.440 --> 0:05:58.960 it's a fantastic novel in which you have this kind 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:05.560 of pan alien figure who has died but then manifests 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.719 in a sort of stigma. It's not a literal stigmata, 0:06:07.839 --> 0:06:10.080 but very much mploying the idea of a of a 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.760 of a stigmata. Oh, I don't I haven't read this one. 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:16.440 I love Philip Kadick's work. Is this from around that 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:19.040 period of time when he was writing sort of those 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.000 transcendental sci fi books like Ballast? Yeah, I think this 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:24.720 one is from the towards the end of his timeline, 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.159 and it's very psychedelic in places. It's it's pretty out there. 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:31.440 That sounds great. Yeah, it's been a while since I've 0:06:31.440 --> 0:06:33.039 read it, some little foggy on the details, but I 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.719 remembered as being like a really really strong read. And 0:06:35.800 --> 0:06:40.880 of course there's the Ministry song Stigmatto, which I want 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.520 to say it's um, the mind is a terrible thing 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:47.039 to taste. I might be wrong, but I remember there's 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:52.200 a video that's very nineties kind of video like in Wait, 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.800 you know, I did run across this song that's the 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.480 very song recently on like an industrial playlist on Spotify 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:00.720 had a bunch of fis and I'm not as familiar 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:04.760 with that particular Ministry album. Okay, yeah, go check that 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:06.600 out on YouTube. I have no idea what it has 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.680 to do with stigmata or or what we've been talking 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.280 about regarding the history or I'm sure it's a deep 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:19.080 thoughtful consideration. Is known for his insights. Alright, So moving 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.680 out of pop culture and into just sort of the 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.840 psychological aspects here and now, Obviously there are a number 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:31.400 of reasons one might inflict this kind of self harm. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.920 You know, you have hysteria, very central nervous system disorders. Um. 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:40.480 Just there are a number of reasons that a partially 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:46.080 unhinged mind might turn to mutilation. Right, and and so 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:54.440 from reading the research about stigmatics throughout history post uh St. Francis, 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.520 a lot of cases they're associated with something that's referred 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:02.280 to as holy anorexia, which is this idea that, um, 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:06.040 there were young women who were strongly active in the 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.160 church and devout in their belief uh, and they were 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:13.120 subsequently seen as female saints. But when we retroactively look 0:08:13.160 --> 0:08:17.000 back on their cases, UH, the diagnosis seems to be 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:21.760 interactsia nervosa that they were purposely starving themselves, not eating 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:29.480 anything except for the Eucharist, and uh, you know, this 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:35.000 kind of treatment of their body through dietary restrictions sometimes 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.280 led to self mutilation. Yeah, a number of these cases 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.480 from stigmatum may result from self mutilation occurring during what's 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:46.880 called dietary constriction related to disassociation. So, as a result, 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:51.559 you have artificial dietary constriction that's resulting in an indifference 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:54.920 to the kind of harm that you're you're inflicting upon yourself. 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.960 And you know, a variety of data links dramatic dietary 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:05.839 constriction um uh to to reduced serotonic functioning, altered states 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.600 of consciousness, and uh self injurious behavior. So let's see 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.640 if we can trace this here. So the behavior starts 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:18.120 off as a dietary restriction and basically starving yourself, and 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:23.520 that leads to a dissociative state that one could construe 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:28.560 as being transcendent. Right that you've you've, you've, you've the 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.960 hunger has brought you to a place of being one 0:09:32.000 --> 0:09:34.840 with God. Yeah, and I should probably you know, drive 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.240 home a little bit about what a disassociative experience consists 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.800 of because a disassociative experience can range from mild detachment 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:46.120 from immediate surroundings to severe detachment from not only physical 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:50.439 but emotional experience. So like a full blown detachment from reality, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:53.559 talking to spirits, you know, venturing into the astral plane 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.679 kind of thing, amnesia, disassociated feud states where you know, 0:09:57.720 --> 0:09:59.760 you don't remember what you did or what happened, and 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:01.640 you quite in your mind when you were doing it. 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.520 But also on the like the low end of the spectrum, 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:09.200 just daydreaming while you're driving to work is essentially low 0:10:09.320 --> 0:10:13.479 level disassociative state, and you know, a coping method for boredom, 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:17.960 but still an altered, a very mild altered state of consciousness. Okay, 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.920 so the extreme end version of this, I think the 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:24.960 logical argument that that was made in their research was 0:10:25.080 --> 0:10:30.120 that these transcendent states would lead to self mutilation in 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:35.319 some cases, which displayed as stigmata, and then the the 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:37.480 the patient I guess was would be how you would 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.880 refer to it. In this case, I wouldn't remember doing 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:43.040 it to themselves because of the state that they were in, 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.719 so they would of course assume that it had been 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:49.120 bestowed upon them in some DFCT manner. Yeah. Yeah, they 0:10:49.120 --> 0:10:51.320 would either have an altered memory of what happened, or 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:53.240 they would they would have no memory of what had 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:57.040 happened that had caused these you know again mild discolorations 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.400 in the palm or just fall on wounds. Yeah, and 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:04.160 and so there there's evidence in the research to that 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:06.240 talks about how you know, a lot of these cases 0:11:06.280 --> 0:11:08.800 were in the Middle Ages, Uh, and for women at 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:11.640 that time, it was one of the few ways that 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:15.240 they could administer control over their lives because of the 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.120 you know, the general misogyny and the culture of the time. 0:11:18.200 --> 0:11:22.240 So they were able to by by by not eating 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:25.960 and by you know, achieving these transcendent states and whatever 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:30.040 happened beyond that sort of uh, lift themselves up into 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:33.760 a position where that they gained empowerment somewhat, you know, 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:36.440 they had a voice to speak from, or rather a 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:40.000 platform to speak from where they could you know, have 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.440 some kind of authority where they normally wouldn't. Yeah, and 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.079 ultimately also engaging in just this mystical experience that results 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:50.000 in physical evidence of the divine or at least and 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.079 or at least physical evidence of their their own connection 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:58.920 to the divine, So it's curious. I think now about 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.520 like some of the more modern cases that I read about, 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:05.000 like Padre Pio Um. There's this guy who's active right 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.199 now named I'm going to butcher this name. I believe 0:12:07.240 --> 0:12:12.120 his name is Lato Um. And both of them, you know, 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.559 padre Pio died in the sixties, but Laco's such is 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:20.680 around now and Um. Both of them display stigmata. There's 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:25.480 photographic evidence of it. UM. I would assume in case, 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:29.319 you could probably even watch YouTube videos of him proselytizing. 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:33.720 But they I don't get the impression that they're suffering 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:40.959 from the dietary constriction version. Yeah. Uh. One another thing 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.200 that was common about these cases, and in both those 0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:46.920 guys cases too, is that they claim that they had 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.880 other things going on, other mystical experiences going on beyond 0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:54.200 the stigmata UM. In padre Pio's case, people said that 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:58.800 his stigmata smelled like perfume, like when he was bleeding, 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:02.760 the room would filled with the smell of flowers. Well 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.960 that that sounds actually oddly suspicious, and it was so weird. 0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:09.160 It didn't smell like blood at all. Like catchup, I 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:13.679 don't know, it's just a miracle, yeah, yeah, Or how 0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:16.839 about this one he has both these guys claim that 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:20.200 they have the ability to buy locate, so that means 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.280 that they can be in two places at the same time. 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.280 M hmm. Well that's that's interesting as well, trying to 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.520 figure out exactly how that would work. I mean, certainly 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:33.120 in a disassociated state, you could have that kind of 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.240 those that's where you feel like you're in two places 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.880 at once. Yeah. Yeah. And then there there's other people 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:41.360 who have claimed, you know, as such with exorcisms, they 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:44.439 claim that they've seen stigmatics levitate as well. Well, of 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:46.760 course they are. They're a whole host of reasons. One 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:50.640 might have some sort of hallucinatory experience that that could 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:54.599 involve either of those sensations. So who knows. Yeah, but 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.400 there's there's a lot going on with stigmatics throughout history 0:13:58.520 --> 0:14:03.439 beyond the the sort of I guess case study that St. 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.440 Francis supplied to come back to a fasting for just 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.120 a moment, doing a link that you know, outside of 0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.280 observations and accounts of religious experience of pain uh and 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.360 um and fasting, we we see plenty of links between 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.880 starvation and self mutilation elsewhere, particularly among Allied prisoners of 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:27.440 war in the Second World War, Japanese pow camps in 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:31.400 the Netherlands during during famine times during the Second World War, 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.600 and among anorexic individuals, and have a great to have 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.040 a great quote here from u c l A anthropologist 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:42.720 Daniel mt. Fessler, who says that the stigmata provides quote 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:46.920 a ready meaning system that likely shapes the experiences, actions, 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.960 and accounts of developed Catholics having a psychological predisposition to 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:57.040 dietary constriction and attendant disassociation and self mutilation. So, yeah, 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.440 that system of meaning comes back again. It It definitely 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:04.840 makes me think about issues of identity um and almost 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:12.000 in a sort of like systematic way of you know, 0:15:12.160 --> 0:15:15.800 recalculating who you are as an individual your role in 0:15:15.840 --> 0:15:18.400 the world, which is something all of us go through. 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.080 It's very existential, right, yeah, and we're informed by the 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.920 stories in our lives, by the images in our lives, 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.920 and certainly individuals who are experienced in the stigmata, they're 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.640 looking to the art, right, They're looking to the accounts, 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.480 and so that's why you see the nail in the palm, 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.200 which is in a which is in keeping with the 0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:39.240 artistic traditions and the storytelling tradition, as opposed to the risk, 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.440 which is where the nail would have actually gone according 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.520 to most of the stories. Yeah, that's the interesting part, 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:47.000 right is that? And not a whole lot of people 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:51.440 call stigmatics out on that, but exactly that the wounds 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:56.920 almost always appear in the palm rather than the risks. Um. 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.560 My only guess is that, like, if you were self 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:02.560 mutile ating and and you went for the risks, that 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.200 there would be a higher likelihood of dying from that. 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.080 And my understanding, especially from reading the literature comparing self 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.080 cutters to stigmatics, was that, you know, obviously the intent 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:17.080 is not suicide. The intent is not to kill yourself. Um, 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.720 so you wouldn't want to do something like that. But 0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:22.320 that that's the only connection I can make. Yeah, I 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.360 think it's just the the iconography, you know. I mean 0:16:24.520 --> 0:16:28.400 it's like, that's the vision of Christ that we're bombarded with, 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.800 is that of the Christ with the artistic one? Yeah, 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:34.800 that's that's interesting. Yeah, which gets back to the whole 0:16:34.840 --> 0:16:38.960 idea that the art itself was was some kind of 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:46.560 iconographic thing that supplanted the actual Jesus Christ. You know, 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:51.040 there there were ideas that the art had holy power 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:54.720 to it and that it in its own way was 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.880 converting people. It's like almost like your brainwash from staring 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:00.960 at this image to too long, in the same way 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.240 that you could say, don't watch that horror movie. You're 0:17:03.240 --> 0:17:06.520 watching too many horror intentional it's gonna crazy your mind 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:08.880 at But yeah, from what I understood from the reading 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:11.800 that there were leaders within the church who were critical 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.920 of some pieces of art because they saw it as 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:19.560 basically being marketing for for the religious movement, and they 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:23.520 didn't want certain images to be associated with it because 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.439 that that was how people were interpreting the religion, that's 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.720 how they were understanding it. Oh yeah, there's there's a 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.399 whole fascinating history of the depiction of Christ and in 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.240 the Catholic tradition, and and when what happens when certain 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:39.160 depictions go a little too far, uh, and people start 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.360 reining in or even throwing the word heresy out. For instance, 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:45.520 the feminine Christ that I mentioned earlier, the three headed 0:17:45.600 --> 0:17:49.080 Christ that was possible but it was popular at one time. Wow, 0:17:49.119 --> 0:17:51.200 I've never heard of that one. Because they're using images 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:54.399 to to describe and tell these stories to, you know, 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:57.399 often lay people and uh. And so you're trying to 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:00.520 talk about the trinity, the Holy Trinity. So you depict 0:18:00.720 --> 0:18:04.359 a Christ that has three faces, oh, essentially making a 0:18:04.400 --> 0:18:07.560 monster Christ weird and it makes me think of the 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:11.200 human character manny faces. I had those little action figure 0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.360 when had he had three faces that you could spin 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.760 around with like a top kind of like that. Yeah, 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:20.639 it's there was a Holy Spirit face, and God face 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.600 and a Jesus Christ face. They all the the the 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:25.480 ones I looked at. They all look the same, and 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:28.000 they're kind of merged together in this kind of weird, 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.440 trippy fashion. U fact with stuff. I think we have 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:33.119 an image out and how stuff works I'll have to 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.199 link to interesting. I wonder how that may potentially connect 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.720 to to the other two uh, individuals who are crucified 0:18:40.760 --> 0:18:42.800 at the time of Christ. That's true, I mean, just 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.840 a good thief and all that. Yeah, you start throwing 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:50.160 around three and yo iconography and I can just go nuts. Huh. 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.560 All right, So we're gonna take a quick break and 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:54.760 when we come back, we're going to look at some 0:18:54.840 --> 0:19:10.960 possible psycho somatic explanations for the stigmata. All right, we're back, 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.480 So there was before we get into the psycho somatic 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.960 explanations for stigmata. There's one more example that I wanted 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.080 to touch upon, which is, from my understanding, one of 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.640 the most famous stigmatics in history outside of St. Francis 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:29.760 was Padre Pio Uh and he lived from eighteen eighty 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:34.600 seven to ninety was a stigmatic, but there were many 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:40.800 skeptics about his uh stigmata, including two popes, so it 0:19:40.840 --> 0:19:46.520 was not recognized as being authentically divine, especially because there 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:48.320 was a point in time where it was found that 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:53.439 he plagiarized his own writings about his stigmata from like 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:56.359 the diary entries of a young girl from the Middle 0:19:56.400 --> 0:19:59.359 Ages who was stigmatic. So there was a lot of 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:03.840 question about his own stigmata, which leads you to wonder too, 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:07.359 Like we were speaking about the self mutilation mainly in 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:10.600 terms of people sort of doing it in transcendent sort 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:14.760 of dissociative states, but in this guy's case, it might 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.600 have been possible that he was actually wounding himself for 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.639 the attention and maybe so yeah, and then again you 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.360 get into especially when you start comparing it to plagiarism. 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:26.680 You get into that whole weird area of like to 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:31.679 what extent was it conscious and subconscious? Was it a 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:35.040 deliberate act? Was it like a slippery slope to to 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:39.320 the point where you're actually you know, carving your wounds? Yeah, 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:40.920 And Padre Pierre, you know, like I said, he died 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.639 in nine so we have like photographic evidence of this 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:47.160 guy with the wounds and everything. So it's, um, that's 0:20:47.160 --> 0:20:49.760 one of those cases where it's it's it's you know, 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:54.520 it gets incredibly complicated psychologically and sort of ethically. Yea, 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.919 But let's move on to the psychosomatic explanation because I 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.159 think this is really fascinating, and this we're talking about 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:05.320 the essentially psychosomatic illness. Uh. This is when a physical 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:09.640 illness or other condition such as stigmatic potentially is caused 0:21:09.760 --> 0:21:13.919 or aggravated by a mental factor such as internal conflict 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:18.320 or high levels of stress. Now, the easiest to grasp 0:21:18.400 --> 0:21:20.760 examples of this, you know, without getting into like a 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:27.359 really fringey territory. Examples of are examples of stress related symptoms. 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:30.240 So I mean, like for me personally, I know that 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:33.480 in the past I've had hives when I'm gott stressed out, 0:21:33.920 --> 0:21:37.040 So that's a psychosomatic response, right, yeah, or um, you know, 0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:40.600 two big ones are peptic ulcers or irritable bowe sundrome. 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:44.000 These were once thought to ibs and peptic ulcers were 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:46.879 both thought to once be entirely psychosomatic, and we know 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:48.720 it is in the case now, but there's definitely a 0:21:48.880 --> 0:21:53.360 you know, psychosomatic element to their manifestation. Um. Another key 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:55.560 area to look at is, uh, you know, the the 0:21:55.720 --> 0:21:59.240 no sebo effect for the dark side of the placebo effect, 0:21:59.680 --> 0:22:04.080 because in the strictest sense and no no cebo response 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.640 is when a drug trial subjects symptoms are worsened by 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:12.120 the administration of an inert sham or dummy drugs. So yeah, 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:15.000 no sebo is one of those uh fascinating things that 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:17.400 keeps coming up over and over again here at how 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:23.760 stuff works. It That specific example has been um just 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.040 used in a lot of our podcasts and videos, and 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:28.080 I believe that we have a no cebo article I 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:30.719 think as well, and the new no cbo podcast launching 0:22:31.760 --> 0:22:35.800 no sea stuff. But yeah, basically what's happening is you're 0:22:35.920 --> 0:22:39.479 you're taking just this you know, sugar pill, but you 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.120 believe that it could hurt you. You've read these You've 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.000 you've read the possible side effects, right, and so when 0:22:45.000 --> 0:22:49.919 you take it negative physical manifestations occur because I believe 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:53.840 that they will. Like the link between the mind and 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:57.159 body in that regard is uh, you know, is established. 0:22:57.160 --> 0:23:00.360 It just gets into questions of to what extent that 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:03.440 connection goes. I don't think that that's something we fully 0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:06.159 understand yet. You know, we're sitting here talking about how 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:08.760 our modern medicine is so much better than the Middle Ages. 0:23:08.920 --> 0:23:11.160 But I think that there's a point to be made 0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:15.159 that our understanding of psychosomatic responses is still probably in 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:19.199 it in its infancy. You end up looking at at 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.120 other areas to such a psycho psychogenic illness, such as 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:28.200 conveyed syndrome or since sympathetic pregnancy. It's not a recognized 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:32.560 metal condition and it's debated, uh, but some believe it's 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:36.800 a true psychosomatic condition that you you you see this 0:23:36.840 --> 0:23:39.800 person in your life swelling with pregnancy, and you begin 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:43.639 to swell as well to take really to take on 0:23:43.840 --> 0:23:45.600 you know, you're not actually there's nothing growing. For a 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:47.159 moment there, I thought you were going to say, like 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:52.119 sympathetic pregnancy was like somebody said that they they immaculately 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:56.520 conceived because of you know, like their friend was also pregnant, 0:23:56.600 --> 0:23:58.560 and now this is like, you know, the wife is 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:02.199 pregnant in a husband got starts getting a big fallen 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:06.159 now that I could see, or probably more likely just 0:24:06.200 --> 0:24:09.320 because of dietary changes around the house, but based on 0:24:09.800 --> 0:24:14.719 certainly high levels of stress and concern. That helps too, Yeah, definitely. Um. 0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:16.680