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Speaker 1: Hey, just a quick note before we kick this episode off.

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Speaker 1: We actually had to re record one segment of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the episode is actually recorded after the

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Speaker 1: second part of the episode, but we managed to put

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Speaker 1: it all together, especially with the help of our great

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Speaker 1: producer Noel, and we just wanted to let you know

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Speaker 1: there might be some contextual stuff that seems a little

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Speaker 1: weird because of the time frame, but when we talk

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Speaker 1: about the stigmatic padre Pio, there is some stuff that

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Speaker 1: was said before and then after and it makes sense though.

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Speaker 1: We've listened to it and feel pretty good about it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you should be able to roll with it. But

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Speaker 1: just in case there are any questions, that's what's uped

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you, welcome to Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert lamp Hey, I'm Christian Sager,

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Speaker 1: and this is part two of our exploration of the

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Speaker 1: stig Mata. Part one dealt primarily with patient zero for

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Speaker 1: the stigmata St. Francis of us Easy. Yeah, as we

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Speaker 1: talked about in the first episode, he is primarily recognized

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Speaker 1: as as the stigmatic of history. But today we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about just stigmata beyond St. Francis, sort of

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Speaker 1: the pop culture that we've seen a stigmata take place in,

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Speaker 1: but also some more explanations that are somewhat scientific for

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Speaker 1: what what's possibly going on here? Why are there so

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Speaker 1: many people who are bleeding from these very specific areas. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the first episode dealt more directly with just the religious

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Speaker 1: idea of the supernatural idea of these wounds of Christ

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Speaker 1: manifesting in the flesh, and then the historical um as

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Speaker 1: well as biological aspects trying to figure out what disease

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Speaker 1: Francis might have suffered from. And this is going to

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Speaker 1: go in a more um psychological direction, right, there's other

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Speaker 1: explanations beyond pathogen's viruses, back area whatever that could potentially

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Speaker 1: cause this for somebody. So somebody really thinks that they've

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Speaker 1: been bestowed the wounds of Christ on their body. But

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Speaker 1: before we get into the psychology of of the matter,

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Speaker 1: let's discuss some of the pop culture aspects here, because

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Speaker 1: we didn't even have time to to mention any of

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Speaker 1: them in the previous episode. Yeah, So the big one

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Speaker 1: that I always think of is that movie Stigmata with

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Speaker 1: Gabriel Byrne and I always forget her name. Um, Rosanna Arquette,

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Speaker 1: it's the sister Patricia Arquette. Yeah, yeah, Um, she's a stigmatic,

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Speaker 1: and contrary to a lot of the history of stigmatics,

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Speaker 1: in that movie, it's portrayed as being like a like

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Speaker 1: a bad omen like it's somehow I can't remember, it's

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Speaker 1: been a long time, but somehow her being a stigmatic

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Speaker 1: is like going to open a gateway for Satan to

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Speaker 1: come to the material plane or something like that. Gabriel

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Speaker 1: Burne is like an accult investigator for the Catholic Church

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Speaker 1: and his I think his job is to go around

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Speaker 1: the world and investigate mystical occurrences like stigmata. I think

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Speaker 1: he also like maybe at one point finds like a

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Speaker 1: statue of Christ that's bleeding. Um, But his job is

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Speaker 1: to go and investigate the Patricia Arqueat incident. It's so

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Speaker 1: weird that they would cast it as this demonic device

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Speaker 1: rather than exploring it more as Yeah, whereas in every

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Speaker 1: other instance in in history it's it's been seen as

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Speaker 1: a holy thing, well most instances. Yeah, I mean, it

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Speaker 1: seems like you would just have your protagonists suffer from

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Speaker 1: the stigmata and then battle your demonic characters. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know, maybe that's where the films of Landing any life,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's hard for me to remember, but I

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Speaker 1: did before we recorded this. Go and watch the trailer

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Speaker 1: again on YouTube, and there is a moment where they're

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Speaker 1: surprised that she's not devout of faith that I think,

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Speaker 1: like they're on a train in New York City or

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Speaker 1: something like that, and Gabriel burn shocked when he finds

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Speaker 1: out that she she's like an atheist or something like that. Uh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, I have a hard time remembering exactly where

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Speaker 1: I encountered the stigmata for the first time, in fiction

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Speaker 1: or otherwise, because I certainly didn't grow up Catholic, but

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Speaker 1: I must have ran across it somewhere. I'm sure it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things that's used as a trope throughout

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Speaker 1: horror literature and movies without even actually being referred to

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Speaker 1: as stigmata. A lot of situations just the idea of

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Speaker 1: bleeding from open source, spontaneously or from your eyes. But

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Speaker 1: the one that I remember is the I can't remember

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Speaker 1: the name of the episode, but it's an X Files

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Speaker 1: episode where Molder and Scully are chasing after a serial

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Speaker 1: killer who's killing fake stigmatics or like, um, sort of

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Speaker 1: like tent revivalist preachers, and they fake stigmata with ketchup packets.

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Speaker 1: I think, and um that the serial killer is going

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Speaker 1: around the country killing them until he finds an actual

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Speaker 1: stigmatic ball exactly. And so are they because they switch roles.

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Speaker 1: Molder's the one who doesn't believe in it and Scully

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Speaker 1: does because she has the religious background. Now is the

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Speaker 1: killer in this is Is he himself a stigmata? He's not.

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Speaker 1: It's very very strange from what I remember. I think

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Speaker 1: he owns a factory, some kind of tire car factory

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Speaker 1: or something like that, and he he goes on a

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Speaker 1: Their explanation is like that he goes on a trip

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Speaker 1: to the Middle East and he comes back and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden he's just like basically possessed with with

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Speaker 1: the the need to kill stigmat Alright, So a little

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Speaker 1: Jerusalem syndrome in there, a little just blue collar guy

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Speaker 1: going off by deep yeah kind of yeah, you know. Now,

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Speaker 1: I do remember, as a fairly young reader reading Philip K.

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Speaker 1: Dix The for Stigmata of Palmer Eldrick Stigmata I can't

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Speaker 1: remember how many stigmata are reference in the title, but

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Speaker 1: it's a fantastic novel in which you have this kind

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Speaker 1: of pan alien figure who has died but then manifests

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Speaker 1: in a sort of stigma. It's not a literal stigmata,

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Speaker 1: but very much mploying the idea of a of a

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Speaker 1: of a stigmata. Oh, I don't I haven't read this one.

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Speaker 1: I love Philip Kadick's work. Is this from around that

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Speaker 1: period of time when he was writing sort of those

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Speaker 1: transcendental sci fi books like Ballast? Yeah, I think this

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Speaker 1: one is from the towards the end of his timeline,

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Speaker 1: and it's very psychedelic in places. It's it's pretty out there.

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Speaker 1: That sounds great. Yeah, it's been a while since I've

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Speaker 1: read it, some little foggy on the details, but I

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Speaker 1: remembered as being like a really really strong read. And

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Speaker 1: of course there's the Ministry song Stigmatto, which I want

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Speaker 1: to say it's um, the mind is a terrible thing

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Speaker 1: to taste. I might be wrong, but I remember there's

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Speaker 1: a video that's very nineties kind of video like in Wait,

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Speaker 1: you know, I did run across this song that's the

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Speaker 1: very song recently on like an industrial playlist on Spotify

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Speaker 1: had a bunch of fis and I'm not as familiar

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Speaker 1: with that particular Ministry album. Okay, yeah, go check that

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Speaker 1: out on YouTube. I have no idea what it has

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Speaker 1: to do with stigmata or or what we've been talking

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Speaker 1: about regarding the history or I'm sure it's a deep

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Speaker 1: thoughtful consideration. Is known for his insights. Alright, So moving

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Speaker 1: out of pop culture and into just sort of the

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Speaker 1: psychological aspects here and now, Obviously there are a number

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Speaker 1: of reasons one might inflict this kind of self harm.

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Speaker 1: You know, you have hysteria, very central nervous system disorders. Um.

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Speaker 1: Just there are a number of reasons that a partially

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Speaker 1: unhinged mind might turn to mutilation. Right, and and so

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Speaker 1: from reading the research about stigmatics throughout history post uh St. Francis,

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases they're associated with something that's referred

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Speaker 1: to as holy anorexia, which is this idea that, um,

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Speaker 1: there were young women who were strongly active in the

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Speaker 1: church and devout in their belief uh, and they were

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Speaker 1: subsequently seen as female saints. But when we retroactively look

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Speaker 1: back on their cases, UH, the diagnosis seems to be

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Speaker 1: interactsia nervosa that they were purposely starving themselves, not eating

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Speaker 1: anything except for the Eucharist, and uh, you know, this

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Speaker 1: kind of treatment of their body through dietary restrictions sometimes

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Speaker 1: led to self mutilation. Yeah, a number of these cases

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Speaker 1: from stigmatum may result from self mutilation occurring during what's

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Speaker 1: called dietary constriction related to disassociation. So, as a result,

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Speaker 1: you have artificial dietary constriction that's resulting in an indifference

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Speaker 1: to the kind of harm that you're you're inflicting upon yourself.

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Speaker 1: And you know, a variety of data links dramatic dietary

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Speaker 1: constriction um uh to to reduced serotonic functioning, altered states

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Speaker 1: of consciousness, and uh self injurious behavior. So let's see

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Speaker 1: if we can trace this here. So the behavior starts

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Speaker 1: off as a dietary restriction and basically starving yourself, and

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Speaker 1: that leads to a dissociative state that one could construe

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Speaker 1: as being transcendent. Right that you've you've, you've, you've the

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Speaker 1: hunger has brought you to a place of being one

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Speaker 1: with God. Yeah, and I should probably you know, drive

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Speaker 1: home a little bit about what a disassociative experience consists

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Speaker 1: of because a disassociative experience can range from mild detachment

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Speaker 1: from immediate surroundings to severe detachment from not only physical

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Speaker 1: but emotional experience. So like a full blown detachment from reality,

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Speaker 1: talking to spirits, you know, venturing into the astral plane

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, amnesia, disassociated feud states where you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't remember what you did or what happened, and

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Speaker 1: you quite in your mind when you were doing it.

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Speaker 1: But also on the like the low end of the spectrum,

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Speaker 1: just daydreaming while you're driving to work is essentially low

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Speaker 1: level disassociative state, and you know, a coping method for boredom,

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Speaker 1: but still an altered, a very mild altered state of consciousness. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so the extreme end version of this, I think the

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Speaker 1: logical argument that that was made in their research was

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Speaker 1: that these transcendent states would lead to self mutilation in

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Speaker 1: some cases, which displayed as stigmata, and then the the

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Speaker 1: the patient I guess was would be how you would

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Speaker 1: refer to it. In this case, I wouldn't remember doing

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Speaker 1: it to themselves because of the state that they were in,

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Speaker 1: so they would of course assume that it had been

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Speaker 1: bestowed upon them in some DFCT manner. Yeah. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: would either have an altered memory of what happened, or

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Speaker 1: they would they would have no memory of what had

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Speaker 1: happened that had caused these you know again mild discolorations

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Speaker 1: in the palm or just fall on wounds. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: and so there there's evidence in the research to that

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Speaker 1: talks about how you know, a lot of these cases

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Speaker 1: were in the Middle Ages, Uh, and for women at

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Speaker 1: that time, it was one of the few ways that

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Speaker 1: they could administer control over their lives because of the

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Speaker 1: you know, the general misogyny and the culture of the time.

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Speaker 1: So they were able to by by by not eating

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Speaker 1: and by you know, achieving these transcendent states and whatever

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Speaker 1: happened beyond that sort of uh, lift themselves up into

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Speaker 1: a position where that they gained empowerment somewhat, you know,

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Speaker 1: they had a voice to speak from, or rather a

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Speaker 1: platform to speak from where they could you know, have

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Speaker 1: some kind of authority where they normally wouldn't. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: ultimately also engaging in just this mystical experience that results

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Speaker 1: in physical evidence of the divine or at least and

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Speaker 1: or at least physical evidence of their their own connection

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Speaker 1: to the divine, So it's curious. I think now about

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Speaker 1: like some of the more modern cases that I read about,

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Speaker 1: like Padre Pio Um. There's this guy who's active right

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Speaker 1: now named I'm going to butcher this name. I believe

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Speaker 1: his name is Lato Um. And both of them, you know,

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Speaker 1: padre Pio died in the sixties, but Laco's such is

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Speaker 1: around now and Um. Both of them display stigmata. There's

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Speaker 1: photographic evidence of it. UM. I would assume in case,

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Speaker 1: you could probably even watch YouTube videos of him proselytizing.

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Speaker 1: But they I don't get the impression that they're suffering

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Speaker 1: from the dietary constriction version. Yeah. Uh. One another thing

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Speaker 1: that was common about these cases, and in both those

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Speaker 1: guys cases too, is that they claim that they had

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Speaker 1: other things going on, other mystical experiences going on beyond

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Speaker 1: the stigmata UM. In padre Pio's case, people said that

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Speaker 1: his stigmata smelled like perfume, like when he was bleeding,

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Speaker 1: the room would filled with the smell of flowers. Well

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Speaker 1: that that sounds actually oddly suspicious, and it was so weird.

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Speaker 1: It didn't smell like blood at all. Like catchup, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, it's just a miracle, yeah, yeah, Or how

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Speaker 1: about this one he has both these guys claim that

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Speaker 1: they have the ability to buy locate, so that means

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Speaker 1: that they can be in two places at the same time.

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Speaker 1: M hmm. Well that's that's interesting as well, trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out exactly how that would work. I mean, certainly

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Speaker 1: in a disassociated state, you could have that kind of

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Speaker 1: those that's where you feel like you're in two places

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Speaker 1: at once. Yeah. Yeah. And then there there's other people

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Speaker 1: who have claimed, you know, as such with exorcisms, they

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Speaker 1: claim that they've seen stigmatics levitate as well. Well, of

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Speaker 1: course they are. They're a whole host of reasons. One

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Speaker 1: might have some sort of hallucinatory experience that that could

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Speaker 1: involve either of those sensations. So who knows. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: there's there's a lot going on with stigmatics throughout history

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Speaker 1: beyond the the sort of I guess case study that St.

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Speaker 1: Francis supplied to come back to a fasting for just

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Speaker 1: a moment, doing a link that you know, outside of

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Speaker 1: observations and accounts of religious experience of pain uh and

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Speaker 1: um and fasting, we we see plenty of links between

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Speaker 1: starvation and self mutilation elsewhere, particularly among Allied prisoners of

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Speaker 1: war in the Second World War, Japanese pow camps in

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Speaker 1: the Netherlands during during famine times during the Second World War,

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Speaker 1: and among anorexic individuals, and have a great to have

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Speaker 1: a great quote here from u c l A anthropologist

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Speaker 1: Daniel mt. Fessler, who says that the stigmata provides quote

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Speaker 1: a ready meaning system that likely shapes the experiences, actions,

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Speaker 1: and accounts of developed Catholics having a psychological predisposition to

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Speaker 1: dietary constriction and attendant disassociation and self mutilation. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that system of meaning comes back again. It It definitely

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Speaker 1: makes me think about issues of identity um and almost

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Speaker 1: in a sort of like systematic way of you know,

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Speaker 1: recalculating who you are as an individual your role in

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Speaker 1: the world, which is something all of us go through.

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Speaker 1: It's very existential, right, yeah, and we're informed by the

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Speaker 1: stories in our lives, by the images in our lives,

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Speaker 1: and certainly individuals who are experienced in the stigmata, they're

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Speaker 1: looking to the art, right, They're looking to the accounts,

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Speaker 1: and so that's why you see the nail in the palm,

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Speaker 1: which is in a which is in keeping with the

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Speaker 1: artistic traditions and the storytelling tradition, as opposed to the risk,

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Speaker 1: which is where the nail would have actually gone according

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Speaker 1: to most of the stories. Yeah, that's the interesting part,

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Speaker 1: right is that? And not a whole lot of people

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Speaker 1: call stigmatics out on that, but exactly that the wounds

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Speaker 1: almost always appear in the palm rather than the risks. Um.

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Speaker 1: My only guess is that, like, if you were self

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Speaker 1: mutile ating and and you went for the risks, that

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Speaker 1: there would be a higher likelihood of dying from that.

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Speaker 1: And my understanding, especially from reading the literature comparing self

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Speaker 1: cutters to stigmatics, was that, you know, obviously the intent

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Speaker 1: is not suicide. The intent is not to kill yourself. Um,

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Speaker 1: so you wouldn't want to do something like that. But

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Speaker 1: that that's the only connection I can make. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think it's just the the iconography, you know. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's like, that's the vision of Christ that we're bombarded with,

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Speaker 1: is that of the Christ with the artistic one? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's interesting. Yeah, which gets back to the whole

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Speaker 1: idea that the art itself was was some kind of

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Speaker 1: iconographic thing that supplanted the actual Jesus Christ. You know,

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Speaker 1: there there were ideas that the art had holy power

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Speaker 1: to it and that it in its own way was

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Speaker 1: converting people. It's like almost like your brainwash from staring

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Speaker 1: at this image to too long, in the same way

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Speaker 1: that you could say, don't watch that horror movie. You're

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Speaker 1: watching too many horror intentional it's gonna crazy your mind

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Speaker 1: at But yeah, from what I understood from the reading

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Speaker 1: that there were leaders within the church who were critical

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Speaker 1: of some pieces of art because they saw it as

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Speaker 1: basically being marketing for for the religious movement, and they

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Speaker 1: didn't want certain images to be associated with it because

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Speaker 1: that that was how people were interpreting the religion, that's

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Speaker 1: how they were understanding it. Oh yeah, there's there's a

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Speaker 1: whole fascinating history of the depiction of Christ and in

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Speaker 1: the Catholic tradition, and and when what happens when certain

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Speaker 1: depictions go a little too far, uh, and people start

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Speaker 1: reining in or even throwing the word heresy out. For instance,

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Speaker 1: the feminine Christ that I mentioned earlier, the three headed

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Speaker 1: Christ that was possible but it was popular at one time. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of that one. Because they're using images

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Speaker 1: to to describe and tell these stories to, you know,

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Speaker 1: often lay people and uh. And so you're trying to

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Speaker 1: talk about the trinity, the Holy Trinity. So you depict

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Speaker 1: a Christ that has three faces, oh, essentially making a

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Speaker 1: monster Christ weird and it makes me think of the

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Speaker 1: human character manny faces. I had those little action figure

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Speaker 1: when had he had three faces that you could spin

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Speaker 1: around with like a top kind of like that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's there was a Holy Spirit face, and God face

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Speaker 1: and a Jesus Christ face. They all the the the

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Speaker 1: ones I looked at. They all look the same, and

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Speaker 1: they're kind of merged together in this kind of weird,

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Speaker 1: trippy fashion. U fact with stuff. I think we have

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Speaker 1: an image out and how stuff works I'll have to

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Speaker 1: link to interesting. I wonder how that may potentially connect

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Speaker 1: to to the other two uh, individuals who are crucified

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Speaker 1: at the time of Christ. That's true, I mean, just

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Speaker 1: a good thief and all that. Yeah, you start throwing

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Speaker 1: around three and yo iconography and I can just go nuts. Huh.

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Speaker 1: All right, So we're gonna take a quick break and

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Speaker 1: when we come back, we're going to look at some

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Speaker 1: possible psycho somatic explanations for the stigmata. All right, we're back,

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Speaker 1: So there was before we get into the psycho somatic

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Speaker 1: explanations for stigmata. There's one more example that I wanted

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Speaker 1: to touch upon, which is, from my understanding, one of

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Speaker 1: the most famous stigmatics in history outside of St. Francis

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Speaker 1: was Padre Pio Uh and he lived from eighteen eighty

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Speaker 1: seven to ninety was a stigmatic, but there were many

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Speaker 1: skeptics about his uh stigmata, including two popes, so it

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Speaker 1: was not recognized as being authentically divine, especially because there

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Speaker 1: was a point in time where it was found that

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Speaker 1: he plagiarized his own writings about his stigmata from like

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Speaker 1: the diary entries of a young girl from the Middle

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Speaker 1: Ages who was stigmatic. So there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: question about his own stigmata, which leads you to wonder too,

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Speaker 1: Like we were speaking about the self mutilation mainly in

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Speaker 1: terms of people sort of doing it in transcendent sort

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Speaker 1: of dissociative states, but in this guy's case, it might

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Speaker 1: have been possible that he was actually wounding himself for

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Speaker 1: the attention and maybe so yeah, and then again you

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Speaker 1: get into especially when you start comparing it to plagiarism.

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Speaker 1: You get into that whole weird area of like to

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Speaker 1: what extent was it conscious and subconscious? Was it a

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Speaker 1: deliberate act? Was it like a slippery slope to to

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Speaker 1: the point where you're actually you know, carving your wounds? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And Padre Pierre, you know, like I said, he died

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Speaker 1: in nine so we have like photographic evidence of this

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Speaker 1: guy with the wounds and everything. So it's, um, that's

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Speaker 1: one of those cases where it's it's it's you know,

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Speaker 1: it gets incredibly complicated psychologically and sort of ethically. Yea,

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Speaker 1: But let's move on to the psychosomatic explanation because I

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Speaker 1: think this is really fascinating, and this we're talking about

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Speaker 1: the essentially psychosomatic illness. Uh. This is when a physical

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Speaker 1: illness or other condition such as stigmatic potentially is caused

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Speaker 1: or aggravated by a mental factor such as internal conflict

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Speaker 1: or high levels of stress. Now, the easiest to grasp

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Speaker 1: examples of this, you know, without getting into like a

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Speaker 1: really fringey territory. Examples of are examples of stress related symptoms.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, like for me personally, I know that

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Speaker 1: in the past I've had hives when I'm gott stressed out,

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Speaker 1: So that's a psychosomatic response, right, yeah, or um, you know,

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Speaker 1: two big ones are peptic ulcers or irritable bowe sundrome.

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Speaker 1: These were once thought to ibs and peptic ulcers were

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Speaker 1: both thought to once be entirely psychosomatic, and we know

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Speaker 1: it is in the case now, but there's definitely a

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Speaker 1: you know, psychosomatic element to their manifestation. Um. Another key

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Speaker 1: area to look at is, uh, you know, the the

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Speaker 1: no sebo effect for the dark side of the placebo effect,

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Speaker 1: because in the strictest sense and no no cebo response

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Speaker 1: is when a drug trial subjects symptoms are worsened by

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Speaker 1: the administration of an inert sham or dummy drugs. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: no sebo is one of those uh fascinating things that

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Speaker 1: keeps coming up over and over again here at how

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Speaker 1: stuff works. It That specific example has been um just

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Speaker 1: used in a lot of our podcasts and videos, and

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Speaker 1: I believe that we have a no cebo article I

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Speaker 1: think as well, and the new no cbo podcast launching

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Speaker 1: no sea stuff. But yeah, basically what's happening is you're

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Speaker 1: you're taking just this you know, sugar pill, but you

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Speaker 1: believe that it could hurt you. You've read these You've

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Speaker 1: you've read the possible side effects, right, and so when

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Speaker 1: you take it negative physical manifestations occur because I believe

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Speaker 1: that they will. Like the link between the mind and

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Speaker 1: body in that regard is uh, you know, is established.

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Speaker 1: It just gets into questions of to what extent that

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Speaker 1: connection goes. I don't think that that's something we fully

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Speaker 1: understand yet. You know, we're sitting here talking about how

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Speaker 1: our modern medicine is so much better than the Middle Ages.

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Speaker 1: But I think that there's a point to be made

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Speaker 1: that our understanding of psychosomatic responses is still probably in

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Speaker 1: it in its infancy. You end up looking at at

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Speaker 1: other areas to such a psycho psychogenic illness, such as

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Speaker 1: conveyed syndrome or since sympathetic pregnancy. It's not a recognized

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Speaker 1: metal condition and it's debated, uh, but some believe it's

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Speaker 1: a true psychosomatic condition that you you you see this

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Speaker 1: person in your life swelling with pregnancy, and you begin

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Speaker 1: to swell as well to take really to take on

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Speaker 1: you know, you're not actually there's nothing growing. For a

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Speaker 1: moment there, I thought you were going to say, like

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Speaker 1: sympathetic pregnancy was like somebody said that they they immaculately

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Speaker 1: conceived because of you know, like their friend was also pregnant,

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Speaker 1: and now this is like, you know, the wife is

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Speaker 1: pregnant in a husband got starts getting a big fallen

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Speaker 1: now that I could see, or probably more likely just

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Speaker 1: because of dietary changes around the house, but based on

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Speaker 1: certainly high levels of stress and concern. That helps too, Yeah, definitely. Um.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I found in the readings

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Speaker 1: that was interesting about the Middle Ages and the stigmatics

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Speaker 1: connecting to the psychosomatic explanation, was that there was a

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Speaker 1: movement that was referred to as the imitatio of Christy

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Speaker 1: that was a terrible Italian but I think that's how

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Speaker 1: you say it. But the idea here was that the

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Speaker 1: individuals at the time, like St. Francis himself, were striving

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Speaker 1: so much to live their lives like Jesus Christ, that

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Speaker 1: they actually began to manifest the stigmatic wounds or getting

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Speaker 1: back to the self harm, they would mutilate themselves. So

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Speaker 1: there were examples of monks that practice stigmata as penance

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Speaker 1: for their sins um so they would, you know, do

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Speaker 1: it manually. I don't know, maybe they even helped one another.

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Speaker 1: That that's the thing too, Like we've we've been talking

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Speaker 1: about how like you know, people self crucifying. That sounds

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Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to you gotta have help on that. Somebody's

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Speaker 1: got to help you get up there, right, I don't know, jeez. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think the footage I've seen of the festivities in

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Speaker 1: the Philippines, Uh, it's it's a group effort, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's so yeah, so there's a community behind it, which

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Speaker 1: probably helps. So the imitatio christie was sort of a

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Speaker 1: form of mimesis right. The idea was that they were

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Speaker 1: identifying so much with someone else, in this case Jesus Christ,

424
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: that they wanted to take on all of their traits,

425
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: not just the traits of their personality, but also their

426
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: physical traits. M here's an example that comes to mind here,

427
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,760
Speaker 1: This is probably horrible example, remove and edits. But uh,

428
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 1: you're familiar with you're familiar with Limmy from Motorhead, Oh yeah, okay,

429
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 1: and you're familiar enough with wrestling to know a Triple H. Yeah.

430
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:04,440
Speaker 1: Triple H was the one who was in Blade three, right, yes, okay,

431
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 1: uh yeah, and he's he's like a big hauncho with

432
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:11,120
Speaker 1: w big now and a talented performer, but he's also

433
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: a big motor Head fan. Is that right? Yeah, huge

434
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: motor Head fan, Like he's brought in motor Head to

435
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 1: do like his his entrance music, like three different versions

436
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: of his own and uh for a period of time,

437
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: he like he grew out. He had the long hair,

438
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,920
Speaker 1: Triple HH did grew out like LEMMI facial hair. So

439
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,160
Speaker 1: so he had the big like lamb chops and the

440
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 1: the Lemmy. He had everything. He did not manifest the

441
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: mole or is it two moles? He has at least

442
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:41,879
Speaker 1: one really big mole. But yeah, so Triple H was

443
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:47,720
Speaker 1: not able to use mimesist to psychosomatically generate a mole.

444
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 1: Not quite, but I think he was working on it

445
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: like a little longer and he could have manifested the

446
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: mole um. That's fascinating. I have a friend who has

447
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: a term which I like to use for describing Lemmy,

448
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: which is that he has a ba's like a bucket

449
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: full of elbows. Now, just clarify, we're not making a

450
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 1: direct comparison between Lenny and christ. But you know an

451
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: individual that you're devoted to, an idea that you're devoted

452
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: to to, At what point does that devotion began to

453
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: have its own kind of bluebo or no sebo effect

454
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: on your body. Yeah, that's interesting, like Elvis impersonators of today,

455
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: that would be a good one. In in Elvis stigmata. Yeah, yeah,

456
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 1: like combination of if they had like a mimesis connected

457
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: to both Jesus and Elvis or something something. But I'm

458
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: trying to think of other like modern day manifestations of this.

459
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: You know, obviously there's nothing so uh preda natural as

460
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 1: you know, wounds forming, but there are many forms of

461
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,679
Speaker 1: identification connected to other figures, you know, especially figures in

462
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 1: popular culture. Well, I mean nowadays, of course, if you're

463
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 1: particularly devoted to an individual, you can just have them

464
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: tattooed on your body. Oh yeah, suctually as Jesus himself

465
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: is appears on good point back an arm. I wonder

466
00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 1: if there's I'm surely there must be somebody out there.

467
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: We'll have to Google image search this after the recording.

468
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: Surely there must be somebody out there who has had

469
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 1: stigmatic wounds tattooed on their body. Well, I have I

470
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: have one of them actually, Oh is that right? Yeah?

471
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: I have actually have the spear wounds. I've never seen

472
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 1: you in their shirt off. What's the thing I tend

473
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 1: to I tend to wear a shirt at work like St. Francis,

474
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: you cover up your humble about your your holy wounds.

475
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: But no, I really do. I'm not just making a joke.

476
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 1: I have the spear wounds on my side. Really. Okay, yeah,

477
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: I mean I thought you were a kiding. No, No,

478
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: it's real. There I have there. It's not like a

479
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: purely You're a number of layers to it. Like I

480
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: only have one tattoo, and I put a lot of

481
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 1: thought into what I would get and what it would symbolize,

482
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: and so they're varying levels of a symbolism at play.

483
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: Oh okay, okay, interesting, Well, now our listeners are probably

484
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 1: out there. They're very interested in your tattoo. Maybe appearance

485
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: catching at the y or something. Now, another example of

486
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 1: psychogenic illness I want to mention real quick, is conversion disorder. UM.

487
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: This is UH. In this, we see patients suffering from

488
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: neurological symptoms such as numbness, blindness, paralysis, or fits without

489
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 1: any kind of definable organic cause. And it's thought that

490
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: these symptoms arise in response to stressful situations affecting a

491
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: patient's mental health. UM. And this is a that's considered

492
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: a psychiatric disorder in actually the ds M D s

493
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: M five, So it's recognized by the UM, you know,

494
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: the discipline of psychology. Yeah. So, like enough mental stress

495
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: and anguish or you know, potentially devotion could uh could

496
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: blind you. You know, so you know, factoring that into

497
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: our attempt to understand stigmata, uh, it begins to seem

498
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:02,960
Speaker 1: ever more possible that you could manifest these wounds psychosomatically. Well, okay,

499
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: so I have a personal story here. I'll try to

500
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: be brief with it, but that maybe it helps me

501
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: to understand this. So when I was thirteen years old,

502
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 1: I went to a Southern Baptist private school and we

503
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 1: had a lot of uh church study, a lot of

504
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: reading of the Bible. Uh. There was also a lot

505
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: of talk about demon possession, which I believe we referenced

506
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: in the episode where we talked about Satanic panic. There

507
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 1: was an incident when I went skiing with my family, UH,

508
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 1: and I got snow blindness. I didn't know what this

509
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: was then. I think I might have told you that

510
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 1: I can't remember if you mentioned on the podcast, if

511
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: you definitely told me about it. Yeah, and uh so

512
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: what happens is, you know, sunlight reflects off the snow,

513
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: your your eyes literally get sunburned, and you temporarily go blind.

514
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: And I didn't know what was going on. So I

515
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: went to sleep that night. When I woke up, I

516
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: was blind, and I was so scared, and I had

517
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: in my head, had all of the the fear from

518
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist school that I was in that I

519
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: thought that God had stricken me blind. So you know,

520
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: my site returned by that afternoon. Um. But you know,

521
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: thinking back on all of this psychosomatic talk, I was

522
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: just a thirteen year old kid and I was only

523
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: in that school for like a year. Can you imagine

524
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: if your entire life was devoted to the church in

525
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: such a way. I can imagine that it would be

526
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: easy for for some of these things to occur, or

527
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: for other things to cause them, and to think that

528
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 1: they were manifested by God. Yeah. I mean, when you

529
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 1: start start considering the power that our world views and

530
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: the symbols that we we have in our life, that

531
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: the power that they have over us, and then start

532
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: thinking about these various psychosomatic effects it. Yeah, I moved

533
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,760
Speaker 1: closer and closer to to buying purely psychosomatic uh stigmata.

534
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: But then I then I then I also began to

535
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: know like I'm maybe getting a little too fringey, and

536
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: then I pull back and to start thinking about self madulation. Maybe. Well,

537
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: I'm sure in all the there's all different types of cases.

538
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: But like I said in the first episode of this podcast,

539
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily believe in stigmata, but I believe that

540
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: these people believe in their stigmata. Yeah, I do. To them.

541
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 1: It's a vast majority of them. I believe it is

542
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: real with you know, a few Charlottean's in the bunch.

543
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 1: But but even then it's often I think, you know,

544
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: when you really look close at at cases where someone's

545
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: faking something like taking something big in their life, it

546
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: becomes complicated when you try and take it apart and say, oh,

547
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: you're just putting on a show. Yeah. Absolutely, Like in

548
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 1: the case of Padre Pio that we were talking about earlier,

549
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 1: if it if it was indeed something that he was

550
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: doing uh to deceive people, then that speaks to an

551
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: even larger psychological problem. Yeah, um on a scale that's

552
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 1: probably you know, commensurate with with that of going into

553
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: a transcendent state and hurting yourself. All right, So there

554
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: you have it, stigmata. Hopefully we have given a nice

555
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: overview of what it is from a you know, from

556
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: a religious standpoint, from an historical standpoint, and look at

557
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 1: some of the various ways you can consider it from

558
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 1: a medical point of view, mythical, even a little sci

559
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: fi thrown in there as well. Yeah, and and like

560
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: we said, you know, we're not experts in any of

561
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: these particular things. I'm not a theologian, I'm certainly not

562
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 1: a doctor. I'm not a psychologist. So I would love

563
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 1: to hear from those of you out there that maybe

564
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: have experience with these or have ideas of your own

565
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,480
Speaker 1: about stigmata. You can always get in touch with us

566
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,479
Speaker 1: through our Facebook page, Twitter, Tumbler, and then we are

567
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 1: also available at blow the Mind at how stuff works

568
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: dot com. Send us an email there and let us

569
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: know what you think. Yeah, indeed, and hey, we want

570
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: to hear about the uses of stigmata in fiction as well.

571
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 1: If you have at fictional stigmata, you know, horror movie,

572
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 1: sci fi, what happened only touched on those two the

573
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: movie and then the X Files episode. I'm sure there's

574
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 1: gotta be dozens. Oh yeah, Like there's there's one movie

575
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: from the seventies called God Told Me To I've never

576
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: heard of that Mary Cohen film, um who did like

577
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,960
Speaker 1: to the Wing Serpent and it lives second okay, And

578
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,720
Speaker 1: it's a subtly fabulous piece that involves like a murder

579
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: investigation in New York and Andy Kaufman has a small

580
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: cameo and it centers around this um angelic christ like

581
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,720
Speaker 1: timaphroditic alien being that has been born in the nineteen

582
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: seventies New York City and is like mind controlling people. Well,

583
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: I definitely want to see this now. So this is

584
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: why I'd like you all the right in because these

585
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: sounds like a great movie recommendation. Yeah, there has to

586
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 1: be some more stigmatau ploytation cinema out there to consider. Yeah, exactly, alright,

587
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: So yeah again, head on over to stuff blow your

588
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 1: mind dot com. Check out all the offerings there and

589
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: what's that email address? Again? Blow the mind at how

590
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

591
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com,