WEBVTT - Trauma & Disbelief.  Debra J. Saunders Talks to A&G

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<v Speaker 1>From the Abraham Lincoln Radio Studio at the George Washington

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<v Speaker 1>Broadcast Center, Jack Armstrong and Show, Jetty Armstrong and Jetty Show.

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<v Speaker 1>They became incredibly violent, and that's when that surge that

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<v Speaker 1>you watched in some of the video began, and you

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<v Speaker 1>had a large group at the mouth of that tunnel

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<v Speaker 1>entrance trying to push their way through the officers who

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<v Speaker 1>were fighting to defend it. I believe had they done so,

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<v Speaker 1>or had they accomplished that, they would have trampled us

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<v Speaker 1>to death. Most certainly you would have had police officers killed.

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<v Speaker 1>I think you run that experiment a thousand times what

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<v Speaker 1>happened that day, and you get uh as few dead

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<v Speaker 1>people as we ended up with that one time. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was just a matter of luck and

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<v Speaker 1>amazement and then that that that more people didn't die

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<v Speaker 1>as often for known just said there. If they had

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<v Speaker 1>broken through, they would have trampled them. They certainly would

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<v Speaker 1>have beaten anybody to death they could have. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think if they had gotten into the capital, they'd have

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<v Speaker 1>killed some politicians. I really believe that that would have happened. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>just stunning. Deborah J. Saunders been a friend of the

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<v Speaker 1>Armstrong and Getty Show for a long time. She's a

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<v Speaker 1>fellow at the Discovery Center Chapman Center for Citizen Leadership,

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<v Speaker 1>and she is now She's also a columnist with Creators Syndicate,

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<v Speaker 1>but she's now on Substack. That's where all the best

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<v Speaker 1>writers are. You can just search for Deborah J. Sanders

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<v Speaker 1>if you want to Saunders, if you want to find

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<v Speaker 1>her on substack. The the you out of her name there,

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<v Speaker 1>there you go, thank you, thank you handsOn. What was

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<v Speaker 1>that he changed your name? You have a different spelling

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<v Speaker 1>there than you have there. I mean, that's crazy. Debor

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<v Speaker 1>Saunders joined us down on the Armstrong and Getty Show. Hey,

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<v Speaker 1>how's it going? Fine? Fine, I'm changing the spelling of

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<v Speaker 1>my name to substack. Substack is where all the best

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<v Speaker 1>people are. So I'm glad the seat that you're on there.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a great place to go because you can you can.

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<v Speaker 1>I love writing my column I'm but it's once a week.

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<v Speaker 1>It's I have to sort of it's bigger thoughts that

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<v Speaker 1>you can just jump on sub stack, which is really fun.

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<v Speaker 1>I like that so so well, just I totally agree

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<v Speaker 1>with everything you've been saying all morning. Okay, so you

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<v Speaker 1>heard us earlier. Um yeah, the so the day it

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<v Speaker 1>happened was just I was just beside myself. I just

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<v Speaker 1>I can't believe this is happening. And but then, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the way the human mind works, it kind of trailed

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<v Speaker 1>off in my memory of how awful it was kind

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<v Speaker 1>of went away. Then, you know, then you see videos again,

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<v Speaker 1>you think, oh, yeah, that's right. People were trying to

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<v Speaker 1>beat police to death with US flagpoles. And then the

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<v Speaker 1>New York Times put together I don't know if you

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<v Speaker 1>saw that thing that they put together a week or

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<v Speaker 1>so ago, where they compiled thousands and thousands of hours

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<v Speaker 1>of video of from iPhones and that sort of stuff

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<v Speaker 1>into one hell of a montage that was like being

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<v Speaker 1>on the ground as that medieval battle happened. Uh, just stunning.

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<v Speaker 1>And then seeing it again yesterday, you reminded it's just

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<v Speaker 1>just how awful that whole thing was. So here's here's

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<v Speaker 1>my my current sense for Trump and Pelosi. I think

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<v Speaker 1>I think Donald Trump and Nancy Pelosi for completely different reasons.

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<v Speaker 1>We're okay with things getting a little out of hand,

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<v Speaker 1>and they thought a little out of hand was going

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<v Speaker 1>to benefit them both, and uh, and they got way

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<v Speaker 1>out of hand. What do you think? Yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 1>that that's true. And Officer Donne said that the reason

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<v Speaker 1>they didn't prepare more is they never thought this would

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<v Speaker 1>happen and that they thought it would be a problem.

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<v Speaker 1>That they didn't think it would be like this. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>Jim Jordan's who was Kevin McCarthy's pick to be on

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<v Speaker 1>the Select committee, And Pelosi said no. He's been on

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<v Speaker 1>TV all weeks saying and if I were on that committee,

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<v Speaker 1>I'd be asking them why weren't you more prepared? So

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<v Speaker 1>what he's saying is that Pelosi should have known that

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<v Speaker 1>this was going to happen. Because if that's true, then

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<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump should have known was going to happen, right,

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<v Speaker 1>You should have done something to stop it, because you

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to have your supporters running into the capital

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<v Speaker 1>and beating up law enforcement people. They're on our side.

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<v Speaker 1>They're good people, and you can see from the testimony

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<v Speaker 1>these four men are traumatized by what happened to them.

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<v Speaker 1>They can't believe that their fellow citizens did this to them. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>as as we'll play this again just because it's uh,

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<v Speaker 1>it makes a pretty good point. Um, So Dimber and

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<v Speaker 1>I can discuss this play thirty one again. For me,

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<v Speaker 1>this is the officer phone. I feel like I went

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<v Speaker 1>to Hell and back to protect them in the people

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<v Speaker 1>in this room. But too many are now telling me

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<v Speaker 1>that Hell doesn't exist, or that Hell actually wasn't that bad.

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<v Speaker 1>The indifference shown to my colleagues is disgraceful. It's got

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<v Speaker 1>to be a really difficult thing to take that you

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<v Speaker 1>fought for a couple of hours, black doubt for several minutes,

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<v Speaker 1>probably was surprised to wake up alive. You fought and

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<v Speaker 1>fought and fought and fought to protect these politicians, and

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<v Speaker 1>then some of those politicians are pretending that it never happened.

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<v Speaker 1>It's I mean, they have every right to be furious

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<v Speaker 1>about this, and and I'm watching these sort of what

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<v Speaker 1>about is and where there are some Republicans who are

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<v Speaker 1>trying to act like this wasn't a big deal. It

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<v Speaker 1>was a big deal. And if I were, if I

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<v Speaker 1>were Kevin McCarthy, my way of dealing with it would

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<v Speaker 1>be to have reasonable Republicans there to ask questions. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>I think this is the day for Nancy Pelosi that

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<v Speaker 1>it worked best for Democrats. There are you know, other

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<v Speaker 1>things that you can get into. But there's just no

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<v Speaker 1>excuse for God for people to you don't treat police

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<v Speaker 1>officers like that. And this is something that we on

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<v Speaker 1>the right hated when during the anti FO demonstrations and

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<v Speaker 1>the BLM riots and all the other stuff like that,

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<v Speaker 1>we thought that this is wrong, and these people belong

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<v Speaker 1>in jail, and the same as us for the January

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<v Speaker 1>six people. It wasn't just it was a big deal.

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<v Speaker 1>And if these people had succeeded, they would have, um

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<v Speaker 1>they probably would have killed some members of Congress, and

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<v Speaker 1>they would have intimidated the rest of them into overturning

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<v Speaker 1>the electoral College vote in favor of their person, and

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<v Speaker 1>we would be, uh, you know, we would be a

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<v Speaker 1>tinpot dictatorship. That's what would be. I don't think that

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<v Speaker 1>was ever gonna happen. I mean, you know, maybe maybe

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<v Speaker 1>some people have said, okay, i'll vote that way if

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<v Speaker 1>you with a gun to their head, but that would

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<v Speaker 1>have quickly been corrected. I mean, so they were never

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<v Speaker 1>going to accomplish what they wanted to accomplish. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>it's just I don't I don't even get what was

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<v Speaker 1>going on in their heads. They're well, they're crazy people.

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<v Speaker 1>But I wish in my in my ideal democracy, you

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<v Speaker 1>would have Democrats on that Penland and Republicans on that panel,

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<v Speaker 1>both speaking to their own sides, saying this is unacceptable.

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<v Speaker 1>We cannot be attacking police in Portland and Seattle, and

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<v Speaker 1>we cannot be attacking police in Washington, d C. And

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<v Speaker 1>you know, we're you don't fight on this, but we're

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<v Speaker 1>not even close to there, which is disappointing to me.

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<v Speaker 1>To me too. And you know, before January six, is

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<v Speaker 1>the march was happening, I would call. I was talking

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<v Speaker 1>to a number of people who I knew were going

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<v Speaker 1>to attend the march, and I kept asking them, so,

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<v Speaker 1>what do you think is going to happen tomorrow? And I,

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<v Speaker 1>by the way, had no idea it was going to

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<v Speaker 1>come to this, right, I thought it was going to

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<v Speaker 1>be I mean, but basically, there were a number of

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<v Speaker 1>people who turned up to the to the olymps in

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<v Speaker 1>Washington Mall, and they somehow thought that magically, maybe that

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<v Speaker 1>maybe some of them actually thought we can walk over

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<v Speaker 1>to the Capitol and uh, members of Congress will look

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<v Speaker 1>at us and realize, oh we're wrong, and we'll change things.

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<v Speaker 1>But obviously there are people who are prepared, who showed

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<v Speaker 1>up and they were armed, they had plans, and they

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<v Speaker 1>were ready to hurt people because that's what they wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to do, and those people were enabled. I mean, we

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<v Speaker 1>saw this with all the Anti five demonstrations and you'd

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<v Speaker 1>you'd hear the people on the website, oh, you know

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<v Speaker 1>this is for a just cause it's a mostly peaceful protest. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>the peaceful protesters end up becoming enablers for the violence

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<v Speaker 1>fugs and again not right. Yeah, And it's similar in that, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, on each side is covering for their own side.

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<v Speaker 1>Seeing n and MSNBC would cover for the Antifa crowd

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<v Speaker 1>and talk about the peaceful protesters and ignore, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the people that would would have a palette of bricks

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<v Speaker 1>delivered for the crowd that was really they're wanting to

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<v Speaker 1>do damage. It's similar to the people that showed up

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<v Speaker 1>to the capitol organized. There are organized combatants on both sides,

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<v Speaker 1>and let's let's can we just all just recognize that

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<v Speaker 1>and let's try to find out who these people are

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<v Speaker 1>and deal with them. Mm hmm. And if they break

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<v Speaker 1>the lap prosecuting U do do you think we do

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<v Speaker 1>you think that was the the high mark or it

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<v Speaker 1>was a low point in a high mark at the

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<v Speaker 1>same time January six, or or do you think they're

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<v Speaker 1>where were It's a point on a continuum. We're going

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<v Speaker 1>to go further down that road, either from the violence

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<v Speaker 1>of the left of the violence of the right. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it is scary right now because I think both signs

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<v Speaker 1>are the lack of trust is so heavy in this country.

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<v Speaker 1>Joe Biden said is going to bring us together, and

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<v Speaker 1>he hasn't done it right. Uh, Instead, it's just finger pointing.

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<v Speaker 1>You guys are wrong. You guys are wrong. Well, and

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<v Speaker 1>Jack our side was wrong. There were you know, there

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<v Speaker 1>are people I voted for Trump and the people who

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<v Speaker 1>went on the Washington all there, they they were they

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<v Speaker 1>felt that they had a right to do something that

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<v Speaker 1>they had no right to do, and the fact that

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<v Speaker 1>they had a president who encouraged them to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, he certainly had been made aware in

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<v Speaker 1>the course of the day what was going on, and

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't try to pull them out of the building

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<v Speaker 1>until later. And you know, famously, Kevin McCarthy calls Trump

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<v Speaker 1>and he's petrified. He's like, do something, And Trump said, well, Kevin,

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<v Speaker 1>I guess these people care more about what happened to

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<v Speaker 1>the election than you do. So he was still, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>bent on trying to delusionally keep the White House. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>And he was willing to let a lot of people

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<v Speaker 1>get hurt so he could get that well. And Joe

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<v Speaker 1>Biden has spoken forcefully against that, of course. But if

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<v Speaker 1>he would include in the same speech and say, hey, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>you know what you're with Black lives Matter and teeth

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<v Speaker 1>or whatever. You don't get to go into a restaurant

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<v Speaker 1>and make people kneel and swear an oath to you.

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<v Speaker 1>You don't get to pull down statues in the middle

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<v Speaker 1>of the night. We have a political process for that.

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<v Speaker 1>If he would say those things together, maybe we could

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<v Speaker 1>get somewhere, get that big chunk of the middle of

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<v Speaker 1>us who aren't violent to to say yeah, let's let

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<v Speaker 1>the grown up, calm people take over. But he's not

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<v Speaker 1>willing to do that. Yeah. It's really sad because I

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<v Speaker 1>feel that on the left and on the right, everything's

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<v Speaker 1>moving further away, and now anybody who talks to the

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<v Speaker 1>other side is an enemy and we're not. We don't

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<v Speaker 1>believe in trying to get things done. We just believe

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<v Speaker 1>in trying to stop the other guys from getting things done.

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<v Speaker 1>It's just very unhealthy. Yeah. Well, appreciate the conversation with

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<v Speaker 1>you today. We'll keep an eye on the hearings. I'll

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<v Speaker 1>be looking for you on sub stack. Good for you.

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<v Speaker 1>Deborah J. Saunders on substack. Substack, that's a good place

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<v Speaker 1>to be. Lots of different points of view and you

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<v Speaker 1>can't get canceled on substack from what I can tell,

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<v Speaker 1>which is cool. Uh. Deborah, thanks for the time to

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate it. Thanks Jack, you bet that's Deborah J. Saunders

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<v Speaker 1>S A U N D E R S. Look Forward

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<v Speaker 1>on substack