WEBVTT - The Mango Hack 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:05.480 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heart podcast, 0:00:05.680 --> 0:00:08.559 and I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:27.120 Bloomberg News. It's Monday, November. Well, now, there's been a 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:30.520 lot going on in crypto in just the last few days. 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.640 Sam bank Win Freed's global empire has come crumbling down 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:39.199 around him. Multiple of his companies have filed for bankruptcy protection. 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:43.839 Various wallets associated with his exchanges were drained of their funds. 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.120 Sam himself was questioned by police and regulators in the Bahamas, 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:51.879 where FTX was based. How did it all come to this? 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:54.840 You'll hear more about what's going on and how we 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.960 got here on some special episodes of the Bloomberg Crypto 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:01.840 podcast this week. On Tuesday, my colleagues Vildanna Harrick and 0:01:01.920 --> 0:01:05.480 Katie Greifeld will discuss the very latest developments in the 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:11.000 SPF FTX Ala Mina universe. But for today's episode, which 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:14.080 we recorded before the shenanigans of the last several days, 0:01:14.600 --> 0:01:17.959 we're going to talk about Mango. No, not the fruit, 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:21.440 the de Fi protocol one that was hit by a 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:26.480 one hundred million dollar exploit recently. Mango experienced a type 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.200 of exploits that's really raising eyebrows and crypto these days. 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.920 It's called a price manipulation attack, and it involves taking 0:01:34.959 --> 0:01:38.160 advantage of how de fi platforms are supposed to work. 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:42.000 In this episode, I'll be joined by Bloomberg report to 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:48.800 Muchen you Never Sleep, and by Evgeny gave a NASA 0:01:48.840 --> 0:01:51.240 experience was a hack back and back in the summer 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.880 is Optimism, the CEO and founder of winter Mute, a 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:58.040 trading platform that was itself hacked for a hundred and 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:07.520 sixty million dollars back in September. We are what's been 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.880 going on with DeFi and specifically with Mango that has 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:14.760 folks a bit stressed right now. I think it's really 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:19.360 all started of this us being at this stage of 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:23.160 the market, a lot of tokens are not as liquid 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:26.800 as used to be, as there's a less retail interest 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:31.360 in the space and there's also less assuming institutional interests 0:02:31.360 --> 0:02:34.639 in the space. So as a result, a lot of tokens, 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:37.680 as we know in the past, especially in the bull market, 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:41.640 there's a hundreds of tokens that's been created now because 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:44.720 there's less interests, there's less money in the space a 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.200 lot of tokens. They are not as liquid as used 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.360 to be. Therefore, it's easier for people to sort of 0:02:50.520 --> 0:02:54.800 manipulate the prices of these tokens by singlely just like 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.359 a one trade or a few trades, so they can 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.639 move the price either up dramatically or down dramatically easily. 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:09.320 This doesn't seem to be technically or practically illegal as 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.840 far as any of the various lawyers that we've spoken to, 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:17.639 just kind of in principle, it's very obsetting, right, you 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.560 are the owner of a platform, or you are people 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.639 who are affected by this thing, and someone comes in 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:28.040 and is able to take advantage of price movements that 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.640 they may themselves be triggering to you know, buy or sell, 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:34.120 or both buy and sell in a way that allows 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:37.920 them to walk away with a significant amount of money. 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.520 But again, as somebody who has been sort of on 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:45.040 the other side of these kinds of exploits that exist 0:03:45.080 --> 0:03:47.760 in the legal gray area, what is it like to 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:52.760 go through it? Basically, I was I'm encryptophor over five 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:56.880 years now, but before that I was in normal traditional finance, 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.680 and I would say those kind of tradings allages, quote unquote, 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:04.560 it would be very much illegal and traditional markets, like 0:04:04.600 --> 0:04:07.280 if somebody would keeps up like this on I know, 0:04:07.440 --> 0:04:09.720 see me and nicely for examples, they would get into 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:12.680 a lot of trouble. So to me, it's a very 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:16.160 very much illegal what happened to be honest people who 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.680 are engaging in these kinds of exploits. And there is 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.440 one in particular as it relates to Mango, who has 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:28.239 sort of publicly been talking on Twitter on discord saying well, 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.839 you know this isn't illegal. Your contracts allow me to 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:33.839 do this kind of stuff. I'm going to do this 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.839 kind of stuff. And to our knowledge, he has not 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.640 been charged with any crimes. He's definitely not been arrested. 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.840 But what has been happening is a sort of how 0:04:46.880 --> 0:04:51.360 shall I say, rage from from folks in the defied 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.320 community that he does have this degree of impunity to 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:55.919 sort of say well, yeah, I'm going to do this 0:04:55.960 --> 0:04:58.520 thing and you can't do anything about it. And specifically 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:01.400 when he was first able to do this exploit with Mango, 0:05:01.560 --> 0:05:04.840 and the initial amounts that he was able to, you know, 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:08.279 manipulate in his favor was a hundred million. Eventually it 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:12.360 was cut to about half. We are what happened between 0:05:12.360 --> 0:05:14.440 that hundred million and that fifty million, Like, what were 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:18.560 the conversations between Mango and this person that reduced the 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:21.320 amounts that was lost? I mean, correct me if I 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.679 were on what I was hurt? Is that what happens 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:28.960 they he posed a statement about what happened, and again 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:32.560 he says everything he did was totally illegal, But he 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:36.440 had a conversation with the Mango team. Eventually they made 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.359 a deal that he would have returned part of the 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.640 money back to the Mango Markets team just because what 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.839 happens Mango as a result is that the whole project 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.000 we can't sort of insolvent and they had no money, 0:05:49.160 --> 0:05:51.800 low liquidity, and a lot of users are trapped with 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:57.080 the fact that there's no money left there now. If Geinny, 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.839 I've got to ask you this question, right like winter, 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.640 you was affected by an exploit in September to the 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:07.400 tune of sixty million dollars. What did you learn going 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:09.440 through that and what are you doing? How are you 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.320 thinking about the space differently as a result. Honestly, not 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:15.839 much changed, I guess in my in my thinking like 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:21.760 it's I see those hacks exploits as basical cost of 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.040 doing business in a way. But it's I wouldn't say 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:28.240 it's inevitable, but it's something well. As an operator in 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:31.760 the space, you basically have to accept that's that's a 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:35.039 possibility for in the training strategies you do that as 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.080 there is a possibility of a hack of exploit, of 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.120 something going wrong with the protocol, you own no productol 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.480 your trade off. So for us as a firm, nothing 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.800 changed in terms of a strategy. Like we obviously learned 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.800 quite a bit on this event, we will we will 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.680 approach trading going forward in a much safer way, But 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:59.560 nothing changed in terms of our well, in terms of 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.120 us being really interested in the space, in terms so 0:07:02.200 --> 0:07:05.480 far as being really invested in the space and basically 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:11.880 asked continuously working too, Yeah, continue trading, continue moving the 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:16.360 space forward. Is there actually a way to design a seatbelt? 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:18.400 Is there a way to get this be from a 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:22.520 cost of doing business to something that is unattractive to 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:26.680 potential exploits. Look, it's it's always possible to make it 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.480 super safe, and I guess that's that's what the whole 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:33.440 ecosystem defied community is working towards and ultimately as they 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.840 will arrive, like if you look at battle tested protocols 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:40.240 like Halba for example, it looks like it's it's pretty 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.600 safe to use and there are like billions of assets 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:46.600 and in protocols like this, but it does take time 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:50.640 to arrive to the stage where like protocols like Holbor 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.920 like unit small for example, are pattal tested and it's 0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:59.160 basically as a run or exploits possible like for those 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:03.160 particular protocols, but the main challenge always arises when there 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.960 is an interception between different protocols, which is the coolest 0:08:05.960 --> 0:08:09.440 thing about defining general when when the protocols can coexist 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:11.800 with each other and like built on top of each other, 0:08:12.360 --> 0:08:16.320 and like in case of Manga specifically as the oracles, 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.880 and from what we saw from a lot of exploits 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.160 in the space, and not not just Maga but but 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:26.280 other ones, oracles are typically is the most vulnerable vulnerable 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:30.160 point because like that's that's where the manipulation can potentially happen. 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:34.960 And if you design your protocol as something that has 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.839 to rely on oracle, yes, that's that's that's ultimately can 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:39.840 be a point of failure. Now, when we talk about 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:42.120 oracles and defy, we don't just mean some like all 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:47.439 seeing entity. We what we're describing are the pricing systems 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.720 that folks use to say, oh, yes, this token is 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:53.200 actually treading at x y z price. And it sounds 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.920 like what you're describing is the fact that these automated 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:59.920 systems that assume a price that exists is valid is 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.280 point of vulnerability because that price might have been manipulated 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:08.240 five seconds before exactly and basically, in traditional finance as 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:12.680 price manipulation would be illegal, while encrypto at the moment, 0:09:12.760 --> 0:09:18.520 it's not. Well, you started by saying, you know, one 0:09:18.600 --> 0:09:22.040 of the reasons this type of exploit has been possible 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:26.079 is because of the relative lack of liquidity. In an 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.800 environment with less liquidity, it's a lot easier to make 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.160 these sorts of dramatic price moves that allow the sorts 0:09:33.160 --> 0:09:37.040 of trading strategies that folks are using to make these 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.960 kinds of profits. There have been a couple of platforms 0:09:40.000 --> 0:09:42.680 and thinking and protocols I'm thinking about, like Compound and 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:45.120 a couple of others that said, okay, for like less 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:47.679 liquid tokens, we're going to take certain types of steps 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.640 to make them less prone to this kind of manipulation. 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.880 What other things have you seen or are you talking 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:56.600 to people about that they're also considering as a way 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.400 to mitigate the risks here. A big part of of 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.439 what happened with the Mango markets and the similar attacks 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.760 was what kind of collaterals you can use to borrow 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.200 money in the space. I think when projects in general 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:15.000 consider what are the tokens that we except as collateral 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.679 is very important. I think sort of due diligence around 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.920 each token and about technical details and and everything else 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:27.000 around the token and the project is very important, you know, 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:31.400 like as Crypto seven it never sleeps. It's also very 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:35.959 important to having established or integrate sort of own chair 0:10:36.080 --> 0:10:39.720 analysis and monitor around your project, just to make sure 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.720 that you know, if something bad happens, you can detect 0:10:43.760 --> 0:10:47.000 it early on and being able at least having time 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:51.400 to fix it or or to save it. Afghani as 0:10:51.400 --> 0:10:56.160 somebody who is in the position of having to convince 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.840 borrowers lenders that they should continue to be using you know, 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.000 not just like your protocol, your platform, but like defy 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.160 in general. What are you saying to folks out there 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:07.920 who are looking at this under the like is my 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:11.199 money at risk? If I am you know investing or 0:11:11.240 --> 0:11:14.839 in any way involved in defy. Right now, I think 0:11:14.920 --> 0:11:18.280 one once something to considers just hot transparent it is. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.720 And I think, like I'm coming from, like very basic 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:25.679 example is lending protocols. We've seen this here is that 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:30.880 well Salsus collapsed companies like Block Fine, Voyager or head Issues, 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.640 and like one unified seam around all of those is 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:37.280 like you could put your money in Celsius, but you 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.040 would have no idea where as a where as a 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:42.839 yield that's coming from defied, it's very much transparent to 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.680 clear whereas the yield is coming from, like whether you 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:48.200 put it on another or you put it on on 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:50.600 Maple for example, you know exactly where as the yield 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.760 is coun from. And that's that's a very big shift 0:11:54.840 --> 0:12:00.600 from very intransparent like traditional centralized player. That's a centralized 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.319 kind of place. Coming up more from Bloomberg report of 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:07.040 Muyashen and from Winter Mute CEO of Guinea, Guy Avoid 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.800 on how the recent attack on Mango is shaking up 0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:23.760 the crypto industry. Now, in the immediate aftermath of the 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:27.760 hack that affected Winter Mute, you know, you tweeted that 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.920 you were willing to offer a ten percent bounty to 0:12:31.640 --> 0:12:34.959 the hacker if they returned the funds. How have your 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.520 feelings on bounties evolved over time? Do you think that 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:40.480 these are effective? Do you think that something like a 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.559 cap makes sense? I think it's ultimately up to every 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:47.079 protocol what to do with it or every company what 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.560 to do with it. To me, something between like five 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:55.760 to generally makes sense. Put in a cap one might 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.200 make sense as well, like we had. Another another experience 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.360 was a hack back back in the summer with with Optimism, 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:07.840 where it ended up successfully where hacker did accept and bounty. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.440 I personally think tund sounds fine. Limited to five million 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:16.240 dollars can also work, I guess yes, but in general 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:18.679 like it. I think it's it's a great saying if 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.360 we have some kind of standard sets in place so that, 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:27.400 like every protocol or every company doesn't have to keep 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:30.920 reinventing it every time something like this happens. The thing 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:32.760 is that every time you like, at least what I 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.440 talked to somebody in defy and I start saying where 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:36.880 it's like agreed standards, They're like, no, that is the 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:41.080 opposite of decentralization. You know this, How how do you 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.920 square those things. Yes, I think that there was actually 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:50.040 a recently debate between SBF and Erica or HISS and 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.079 Eric and his post. He basically like there is a 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:56.440 difference between regulation and standards, and regulation is like close 0:13:56.480 --> 0:13:59.840 and post on you and standards the sumpthing, Well, you 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.240 can agree to follow basically, and you follow the standards, 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:06.640 people will television more likely, but you don't have to, 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:09.199 Like you can say, yeah, I'm not gonna divide by 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:11.840 the standards. I'm gonna do my own saying. And that's fine. 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:14.240 We all you talked to a lot of folks and 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.000 defy kind of all day long. We've said on this 0:14:17.080 --> 0:14:19.520 podcast over and over that one of the it's almost 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.640 like a meme at this point. If you are the 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:23.920 CEO of a big crypto exchange, you're like, we just 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.880 want regulatory clarity, like like we just want to know 0:14:26.960 --> 0:14:29.880 what's going to happen. What is the vibe among the 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.080 other DeFi executives that you that you speak to as 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:36.640 it relates to this regulation and enforcement piece. I think 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.080 it's funny. I think when I first started covering crypt 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.400 or way back then, I mean saying way back then, 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:43.840 it's a little bit a little bit exaggerated because just 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:47.000 deify as being existing only for this this few years 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:49.120 in the past. You know, in the beginning when we 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.440 talked to Defy folks, and it's usually just those DJs, 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.360 you know, anymalous people on discord and trying to find 0:14:55.400 --> 0:14:58.520 the alpha. Like now, like I think people are becoming 0:14:58.600 --> 0:15:01.480 more realistic. Like a lot of folks when I talk 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:04.440 to them, they understand, you know, like for Defied two 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:07.840 really to grow, to really go bigger, you need bigger 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.560 money coming into the space. You need people to use 0:15:10.600 --> 0:15:14.040 it for real life application, and you know, people can 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.720 borrow and landing like even real world assets in the space, 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:21.360 and you have to have regulations on that. I think 0:15:21.440 --> 0:15:24.760 that's the sort of a general consensus as as I'm 0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.400 getting from from people these days. But I think as 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:31.840 we just discussed it, it's really hard to tell how 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.800 we can get everyone together to have some sort of 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:40.440 agreement on how to regulate it and how can sort 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:44.680 of enforce people to follow the rules. Again, from your perspective, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.640 what is kind of your ideal version of something like 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:51.640 that for Defy, Like if we ever get to this 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:56.000 sort of scale for Defy where the applications are things 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.760 like you know, widespread availability of mortgages or you know 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:02.920 what our sorts of consumer finance people might need. What 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:05.320 does that look like for you? To me, the ideal 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.040 regulation aroundefined and maybe not maybe regulations not even the 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:12.920 right world worked here, But to me, the ideal would be, 0:16:13.080 --> 0:16:16.920 for example, with SEC not saying the security is not security, 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.720 which they're not even saying to be honest, but it 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.800 would be saying, okay, guys, we looked into a syrium. 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:26.480 It can be like risky, but it's definitely not a 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:31.800 scamp something like this. So basically, instead of prosecuting protocols 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:36.200 for potentially being securities or not, basically making a list 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:40.360 of safe things to invest it, that to me would 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:45.480 be ideal because the world where like what especially American 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.800 investors are running into now or ordinary people really is well, 0:16:49.880 --> 0:16:54.520 they cannot legally use a big portion of defied protocols 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.320 like divid X for example, because the ideas just IP 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.680 blocks US people because it doesn't want to deal with 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.080 the FTC or SEC because it doesn't want to break 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:08.200 the lot, which is very understandable, but it also means 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.080 that basically, big chunk of the market, big big chunk 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.560 of opportunity, which is open for the rest of the world, 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:17.320 is just really closed for normal retail people in Yes, well, 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:18.960 a pleasure to have you both on the show. Thank 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.120 you again for taking the time. Thank you, Thank you. 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.119 You can find more of Mooshan's repausing on the Bloomberg terminal, 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:33.800 on Bloomberg dot com and on Twitter. This is Bloomberg Crypto, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:37.320 a daily podcast from Bloomberg and I Heart Radio. For 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.640 more shows from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:43.400 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.760 Send us your comments, questions, or suggestions for the show 0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:53.119 to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net. The supervising producer of 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:56.560 Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky very Galina. Our senior producer is 0:17:56.640 --> 0:18:00.440 Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Fruke and Sharon Barrio. 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.720 Our associate producers are Ty Butler and Moses on Them. 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.680 Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original music by Leo Sidrn. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.720 I'm Stacy Maria Schmall. We'll be back tomorrow.