WEBVTT - Making a Difference in Corporation's DEI Actions 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.160 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:08.440 Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. More employers are 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:11.560 talking about it, they're taking steps to improve it. More 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.160 employees care about the companies they work for doing just that. 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.840 We're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion in our next 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.560 guest is working with other companies when it comes to 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.960 d e I. Julie Kaufman is Chief Diversity Officer at 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:28.440 Bannon Company. As such, she oversees the company's global diversity, 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:31.360 equity and inclusion practice, and she joins us on the 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:34.760 phone in Chicago. Julie, nice to have you here with us. 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.760 How are you? I'm doing fine, Carol, how are you 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:39.960 doing today? I'm doing well. I keep thinking the summer 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:42.280 is going to get quiet, and I keep getting fooled. 0:00:42.360 --> 0:00:44.720 It's not tell me how busy you've been in terms 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:48.720 of your practice. You know it's been crazy busy, just 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:53.199 like you're describing there. I think that the um the 0:00:53.240 --> 0:00:55.680 floods are unleashed a little bit. Obviously with all the 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:59.200 events of course, the pandemic, but then after the murder 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:03.840 of George Floyd, the number other events around racial hatred 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.480 a lot of companies started asking themselves what do we 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.560 need to be doing differently around the topics of diversity, equity, 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.280 inclusion to try and create more space, more opportunity for 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:16.240 all talents across the board, and that has kept us 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.959 quite busy both internally and working with our clients on 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:21.080 actions to take to try and really move the needle 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:23.720 on outcomes. What's the typical situation, Julie, when you work 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:26.160 with a client that you walk into, what are the problems, 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.760 what's the what's the think that our corporate think that 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.440 needs to change? Give me, give me some ideas, you know. 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:34.760 I think there can be a variety of situations, but 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.240 often leadership has identified that there's a gap. There's a 0:01:38.240 --> 0:01:41.319 gap somewhere, could be in representation or not they're having 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:44.040 talents of diverse backgrounds represented in the workforce in on 0:01:44.080 --> 0:01:46.720 their leadership team and sufficient numbers. It can be a 0:01:46.760 --> 0:01:50.160 gap and live experience, lived experience whether or not the 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:54.280 employees again of different backgrounds, races, gender, etcetera, are having 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.240 the same experience and are feeling the same sense of belonging, 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.320 support and trust in the organization. And so from what 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:02.360 we've got is a leadership team that said, we know 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.040 we have a tought an issue, we know even opportunity, 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:07.240 but we're not sure what actions we can take. We're 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.880 not sure we're to start, and we're not sure necessarily 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:11.960 what are some of the best things we can do 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.240 to try and move the needle. And some of the 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.720 work that we've put out in this recent paper around 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.799 some proven actions that we know can change the outcomes 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:24.480 around both retention, recruitment as well as overall employee sentiment 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:27.600 are things that we're working with employers on today and 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:30.960 our clients to try and really make a difference. Um, 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.000 step by step. It's a long journey, by the way. 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.280 It's something you change overnight, but you gotta get started somewhere. Well. 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:37.960 And it's funny that you say that, because I think 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:39.600 about in the last year and a half or so, 0:02:39.720 --> 0:02:42.680 right coming off of the pandemic, coming off of George Floyd, 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.800 how many conversations we've all had about wait a minute, 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.520 the injustices in society, the inequities. It's not new, folks, 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:52.160 It's been around for a long time. We're talking about it, though, 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:54.600 it feels like in a different way. But enough of talk, 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.840 let's take steps and actions. To change it exactly. I 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.520 think that's the set to mention of many, not just 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:04.760 the broader population based As you mentioned, people care about 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:06.720 this more and more and they're selecting their next role 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:08.800 when they're talking with the companies they work for. But 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.160 leaders themselves are saying enough of the talk, where how 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:13.240 do we take some actions that can make a difference. 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:15.680 And so in this most recent report that we put out, 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.120 we tried to talk through ten action that we think 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.640 have real evidence and research behind them that really moved 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.760 the change the outcomes that I mentioned on things like recruitment, 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.280 on things like retention, and so some of the specific 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.760 actions in particular that can make a difference UM around 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:35.600 first of all, having real c suite commitment and accountability. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:40.240 That means having real leadership identified as accountable for these outcomes, 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.360 sharing some of your information, being more public with your 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.520 aspirations and your goals, but also allows a lot of 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:50.520 resources to allocating resources. And I should say two differing 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.280 ways of both changing the way we recruit, changes the 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:55.280 way we talk with one another, changing the way we 0:03:55.320 --> 0:03:59.080 think about our next assignments, etcetera. UM and I can 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:00.720 talk a little bit more abou a few practices in 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.240 a few moments. Well, and what's interesting too, Well, talk 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.600 to us about those practices, um and tell us specifically, 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.240 you know, tell us a little bit about what you're doing. Yeah, 0:04:10.280 --> 0:04:12.280 maybe I'll just pick at least one to start with, Carol. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.360 Around this idea of talent acquisition, I think so many 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:17.799 people say, Okay, well, how do I try and get 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:20.960 more talents here in my organization of different backgrounds and 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:22.640 so one of the things we've been talking a lot 0:04:22.680 --> 0:04:26.600 about is adopting a skills first approach to talent acquisition. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.240 So often we have credentials in place. You need a 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.120 four year degree to do this, you need ten years 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:34.479 experience to do this. But instead of focusing on those 0:04:34.520 --> 0:04:38.320 credentials which do not always equates to actually being successful 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:39.880 in the job, if we can be a little bit 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:43.279 more skills first as a clear way to mitigate this, uh, 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:46.960 these exclusionary practices, So you think about folks that might 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:52.560 have demonstrated quoting skills or demonstrated um uh different skills 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.480 and operational settings and being able to address look for those. 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.680 Put your recruiting apparatus looking for those and looking for 0:04:59.760 --> 0:05:05.120 part ownership supply organizations in different cities and geographies where 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.919 you can really start to get a flywheel going of 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.920 finding folks with the skills you need and then being 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.400 able to have success and then helping you grow that 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.040 talent base over time. Right, go to different pools. Right, 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:17.680 We keep hearing that over and over. Don't keep going 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:19.960 in the same place as to recruit if you really 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.279 want to mix things up. Having said that, how important 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.920 is it when a company is recruiting that their C suite, 0:05:27.279 --> 0:05:30.640 their board And I'm obviously talking about publicly health companies 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:32.680 here at this point, but I mean private companies have 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.279 boards as well too, But I mean, how important is 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:39.479 it that from the top down you're seeing diversity inclusion? 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.880 It's you know, you've got to walk the talk. Absolutely, 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:45.520 it couldn't be more important. Actually, you're right onto something. 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.000 And first of all, it has to be present in 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:50.920 the representation in that boardroom and in that C suite, 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.000 and where there are gaps in diverse representation, there has 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:56.000 to be clear focus on ways in which you're going 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:59.960 to build that pipeline over time. With succession planning in particular, though, 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.440 we also look for those boards and those management teams 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:06.719 to set clear aspirations and goals, to be publicly talking 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.720 about what those goals are and then creating usually some 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.600 sort of oversight body. It can be a sub committee 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:14.320 of the board, it can be a pass force, it 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.240 can be a council. But it's a group of leaders 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:20.640 that are truly empowered to not only set out those aspirations, 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.159 but to take those actions and be held accountable for 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.720 progress on the various areas of improvements the company has 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:28.640 set out in front of it. And I think saying 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:33.039 really communicating well interparently to your organization internally and to 0:06:33.200 --> 0:06:37.160 your customers externally is quite important along this multi year journey. 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:38.920 Truly what gives you hope that something is going to 0:06:38.960 --> 0:06:40.960 be different this time around? And forgive me, I'm a 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.919 very optimistic person. I believe in change. I've seen changes happen. 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.279 But it's safe to say it's pretty upsetting that we're 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:54.120 still talking about diversity inclusion. You know, um, after decades 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:57.359 of supposed, you know, everybody understanding that there are problems 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.000 out there and supposed to be working to make it change, 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.960 you know, to make it better. Absolutely know, Carl's the 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.880 right push and I am optimistic by nature as well, 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:09.240 and I'm really optimistic this time because of the way 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:12.280 I hear my colleagues and our clients talk about this. 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.400 I think there's been an awareness growth of the pro 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:19.120 inequities in our society, but that there are things that 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.600 the corporation can do, whereas maybe ten fifteen years ago, 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.120 too often we look towards governments, are not for profits 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.640 to still these you know, to fix these problems, to 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:29.760 address these gaps. And now we're saying, look, if we 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.960 have a racial wealth gap in this country, the corporations 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:34.720 are the ones of the jobs. We have to take 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.160 actions to make a difference. And I'm so proud for 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.040 us to be a founding member of the one ten 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:42.680 Coalition as an example of a group of companies over 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:45.320 fifty that have come together now and maybe a pledge 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:48.680 that we're gonna hire one million Black Americans over the 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:52.760 next ten years into family sustaining wage jobs with real 0:07:53.040 --> 0:07:55.600 career growth, and they're not going to require a four 0:07:55.680 --> 0:07:58.680 year degree. It's the commitments to skills based hiring. It's 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:02.880 a commitments career path, an advancement to Black Americans is 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.120 a way to really make meaningful progress on the wealth gap. 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.400 And we've got, like I said, busy blue chip employers 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.800 that have made that commitment and are working now on 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.880 um listing those jobs in the various communities, and we're 0:08:14.880 --> 0:08:17.400 working on talent partnerships in those communities to sort of 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:20.760 have that halfway of different groups of talent with the 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:24.520 right upskilling opportunities to be ready for these jobs and 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:26.920 to take advantage of these opportunities. So I'm doing so 0:08:27.040 --> 0:08:31.720 quick math. You said, um, a million Black Americans over 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.439 ten years fifty I think blue chip companies are companies 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:37.319 that are involved in this, so that I think works 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:40.960 out to two thousand Black Americans a year. I mean, 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:45.440 could we not do this faster? And if we can't, why, 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:48.559 well the good I mean, look, this is one coalition. 0:08:48.600 --> 0:08:50.240 If I think they're gonna be many that are formed, 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.080 there's a there's a number of other coalitions out there 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:55.800 in New York City themselves. But you know what I'm 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:59.120 getting You know what I'm getting to. It's it's I think, yeah, 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:03.000 go ahead, sorry interrupt as I say the reason we 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:05.640 can't go faster. First of all, I think we can 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:07.920 and we should push faster, but we have to realize 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.880 that talent acquisition is just the beginning. What you really 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.680 need is to also shape the culture, shape the environment 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.520 to ensure that this talent will be successful in the 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:21.520 organizations that it joins. That means creating different levels of mentorship, sponsorship, 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:25.360 career growth opportunities, and real focus on the lived experience 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.360 for a group of individuals that may not walk in 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.200 the door right off the bat, trusting their employer or 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:33.800 believing they have a sense of belonging the way other 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:36.680 groups that have see themselves more in the majority, like 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.280 their leadership team might feel that way. So it takes 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:43.320 investments over time to both get the new talent or 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:46.599 the existing talent in seat and then grow into the 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:49.800 leadership roles and keep that flywheel going. And I think 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:51.720 that the worst thing we could do is rush and 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:56.559 try and over recruit beyond the organization's ability to maintain 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:59.600 and create an environment where that talent can thrive well 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.720 and to interesting. You know, you do talk about and 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:03.719 you shared some notes with us, but about mentoring and 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.600 sponsorship programs. How early does that need to start to 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.319 really make it effective and make a difference. You know, honestly, 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:12.680 I think it can't start too soon. We think about 0:10:12.679 --> 0:10:14.400 it inside band and a lot of our clients are 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:16.920 doing the same with from that moment of offer, who 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.760 is that person that's really connected with that individual and 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.160 acts as that first colleague or friend and can help 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.079 them understand the organization, navigate the decision process, and then 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.600 when they start their job, be there to help them 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.320 understand the lay of the lands, whether we're remote or 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.559 in person, but when the office, how that works, how 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:38.839 the different norms and communication styles work. And then over time, 0:10:38.920 --> 0:10:40.840 I think this has a transition into more of a 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.440 coaching mentoring relationship where someone in more of a leadership 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.199 role in their function, in their business unit, in their 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.680 division takes a specific interest in helping that person navigate 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.000 career choices and growing further into their job. So I 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.400 think it's too late if you wait till the third 0:10:57.440 --> 0:10:59.680 promotion before we say, oh, yes, we should mentor you 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:02.080 even more. I think this is something that starts at 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.360 the ground up and creates what we like to call 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.400 a ring of support for this talent as they're arriving, 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.640 and it just grows and um evolved over time as 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:13.760 the needs of the person involved. We're talking with Julie Kaufman. 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:16.600 She's Chief Diversity Officer ahead of Global diversity, equity and 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.080 inclusion at Bay and Company. Still with us on the 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.520 phone from Chicago, Julie, What I do wonder too when 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:25.360 it comes to diversity equity inclusion. You work with clients 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.720 across a lot of industries and regions. Are there variations 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.560 when it comes to the industry or variations when it 0:11:32.600 --> 0:11:36.720 comes to the region when it comes to d EI 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:42.440 needs or problems? Absolutely, I think there are variations based 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.880 on the mix in the community. So from a regional standpoint, 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:47.800 you might have parts of our country that there's more 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.480 of a lot next population, parts of the country there's 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:54.240 more Asian American population, or the mix may change for that. 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:57.520 And then an industry is for sure both functional types 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.720 you know, engineers and one industry versus you have more 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:04.400 artisans and other industries, perhaps more manufacturing jobs in some 0:12:04.440 --> 0:12:07.040 places and more white collar and other places. So you 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.160 have to flex these um different tools if you will, 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.479 have these different actions to meet the needs of the populations. 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.199 But the thing that is common in my experience in 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:19.080 a way across industries and regions is the importance of 0:12:19.200 --> 0:12:23.079 listening and the importance of really understanding the lived experience 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:27.360 of your employees, especially those from underrepresented background such that 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:30.679 you can then understand where there are gaps and understand 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:34.040 opportunities to sort of provide more support. Whether it isn't 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.600 the spirit of coaching and mentoring that we were just discussing. 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.480 Maybe it's training, maybe it's career pappening, but maybe it's 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:46.160 also just better communications around um the performance management processes 0:12:46.240 --> 0:12:48.560 or the growth process that your company. But there is 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:53.080 no substitute for really understanding the differences and lived experience 0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:56.120 across different populations that your company and then putting together 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.680 action plans to try and move that forward to a 0:12:59.720 --> 0:13:02.959 place where folks are really thriving in their roles. Julie, 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.600 do you think we need to put it back into effect. 0:13:05.679 --> 0:13:09.560 Quotas we've argued are some of our our team on 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:13.160 the opinion side have argued and reported on how quotas 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.000 have helped in terms of bringing more women into the workplace. 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:18.640 What's your take in terms of quotas when it comes 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.680 to minorities. Yeah, quote is like so many words. Get 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.760 is a loaded term, and I know creates the antibodies, 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.160 which is a topical term as well. I guess these 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:31.720 days among COVID. But you know, we've thought about it 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.200 more like goals and quotas we've thought about progress versus 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.520 absolute right like guys, my strong belief is that if 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.040 we're talking to a client, we're talking a lot about 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.680 how diversus your leadership team, how diversus your workforce, and 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:47.120 do they mirror one another. What you should be aspiring 0:13:47.160 --> 0:13:50.240 to is, of course, a workforce that mirrors the customers 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.720 you serve or the communities you reside in, and a 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.240 leadership team that mirrors that work force. And if we 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.599 can start to get those ratios more in line and 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.320 they're less gaps and we can grow the talent that way, 0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:04.400 I think that's an effective approach as opposed to setting 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:08.840 absolute numerical targets, which can always be subject to reasons 0:14:08.840 --> 0:14:13.679 that they're difficult and given industry, given community, etcetera. Um So, 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:15.959 my own personal due is to stick to things like 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.880 the right goals and aspiration. Now, now, one thing I 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.400 will say, though, is I really believe in the importance 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.600 of measurable outcomes and metrics. And it can be progress forwards, 0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.240 it can be mixed oriented, it can be ratios as 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.360 I just talked about, but I do think you need tangible, 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.200 measurable outcomes that you are holding yourself accountable to and 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:38.720 talking about your progress or gaps to getting there. You know, 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:42.440 it's interesting. Are Lisa Brahmo. It's one of the hosts 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.040 of Bloomberg Surveillance on Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg TV. She's 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.160 got an opinion Bloomberg opinion column that's out on the 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:52.920 Bloomberg and she's specifically talking about the wealth gap and 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.000 what the Fed does or doesn't do in terms of 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:58.720 perpetuating it. And she's saying, you know, the Fed to 0:14:58.760 --> 0:15:01.600 cries a wealth gap that it helps perpetuate. And the 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.560 longer the Central Bank continues alter easy monetary conditions, the 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:08.760 more the richest families benefit disproportionately. How can bodies like 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:14.320 the Federal Reserve help in this process? Yeah, that's a 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.720 great question, and I I've seen that piece. Actually, I 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.040 think seems terrific. It's not my area of expertise, you know, 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:21.760 to be completely honest to you, in terms of federals 0:15:21.800 --> 0:15:23.400 or but I do think that you know what I mean, 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.400 in terms of bigger policies by something like the Fed 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:31.160 O our policymakers. Yeah, well, like you know, the Childcare 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:33.600 Act or you know, ability to try and get kids 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:36.720 out of poverty, abilities to help families have supports such 0:15:36.800 --> 0:15:40.400 that they can then uh be working in the workplace, 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.080 but at the same time not worrying that they're going 0:15:42.120 --> 0:15:43.760 to have their kids not have the care they need. 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.200 I think those are important steps, and I think in general, 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.280 thinking about ways that companies that are meeting certain goals 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.320 are providing more support to those employees. You know, maybe 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:57.320 there's creative ways from policy standpoints that we're um helping 0:15:57.320 --> 0:16:00.880 those organizations have stimulus to do those type of things. 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:02.600 But I do think that this is a place where 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:06.360 private sector public sector needs to work together, and they're 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.400 not for profitive of role to play as well. This 0:16:08.440 --> 0:16:12.960 is a systemic, multi generational problem, as you said well before, Carol, 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.440 So it's going to take all of these different aspects 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:18.960 of our society to come together and try and make 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.280 differences here. You know what's interesting, Julie, I don't know 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.240 if you saw this. This was a story in Bloomberg 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.000 Business Week and it was a profile piece of Laura Murphy. 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:28.840 She's former director of the a c l U Legislative Officer. 0:16:29.240 --> 0:16:32.320 She's a pioneer of the Corporate Civil Rights Audit, which 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:35.560 is a new tool for getting companies to really confront 0:16:35.560 --> 0:16:38.640 their role in perpetuating racial disparities. She spent two years 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:43.640 auditing Facebook. She's a senior advisor to Airbnb. What you 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:48.120 know internal or external controls? Do you in vain or 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.880 do you think companies have to have to confront you know, 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:54.880 a firm or a company or institution's role in perpetuating 0:16:54.920 --> 0:16:59.560 those racial disparities, because sometimes they're there without individuals really know. 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.920 We talk about bias uh in data. So I'm just 0:17:02.920 --> 0:17:06.280 curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, I love that, and 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.119 I think, um, those are super important. Like if you 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:12.760 think about the way our regulatory and our financial system works, right, 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.640 everybody is there's a there's a defined set of terms 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:18.639 that we do and we report our financials as a corporation. Right, 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:22.639 there's revenue, this costs, there's the gap accepted metrics. And 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:24.960 yet what we don't have on the topic that you 0:17:25.040 --> 0:17:27.320 just talked, you know, talked about here with racial equity, 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:29.920 if you will, is an accepted way to talk about 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:31.679 what does good look like and what doesn't it look like? 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.800 And what's the right office that we have a language 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.440 and we can start to hold folks accountable. I think 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:40.159 we need outcomes metrics as well as process metrics that 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.000 can demonstrate this is what good looks like, and you 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.159 are a company should be certified if you will, or 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.920 at least have a report card on where you're doing 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.240 well and where you're falling short. And there's a number 0:17:50.280 --> 0:17:53.840 of those sorts of audit in things like the environment 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:55.919 and climate other places. I think it needs to be 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.080 in this area as well, that we should really come 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.399 together and try and agree on a pool set and 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:03.920 a set of outcome metrics like you're describing, to help 0:18:04.000 --> 0:18:07.200 companies know where they stand right. You know, it's interesting 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:09.000 because I do feel like we talk a lot about 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:10.960 E S G. I know these are things you're familiar 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:13.479 with and other things. You know companies are paying attention 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:15.480 to that too, But unless we have the metrics to 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:19.560 really measure it. I'm I'm a numbers person, and so 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:21.840 I know not everything you can put a clear number 0:18:21.840 --> 0:18:24.960 on it. But the more we can clearly define what 0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.639 E S G is, R D E I is, the 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:31.840 better we can move towards it as a goal. Agree, 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:34.440 I think if you don't have holes that you can measure. 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:36.040 When we talked about this, at beIN a lot that 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:38.240 we have got to have a tangible way to define 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:41.320 the success, a number or set of numbers that can 0:18:41.440 --> 0:18:43.720 measure how far we are from that, and then a 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:46.520 mechanism for getting into the root causes of why is 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:48.600 it not moving or why is it not moving as 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:50.480 quickly as we'd like, and how do we start to 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.679 address those root causes to get at that outcomes that 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:56.360 we've all agreed is the right one to measure and 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.760 absence more globally or countrywide established set of metrics that's 0:19:00.760 --> 0:19:03.040 going to be left to each company to define their 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:06.000 own and part of what we're hoping with this research 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.639 paper and others start to have a basis of conversation 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.840 of could we develop more standard set of outcomes that 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.400 more companies would utilize, and then we might be able 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:17.560 to have this dialogue in a different fashion, as you suggest. 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:20.760 One last question, So I'm thinking about our audience that's listening. 0:19:21.040 --> 0:19:25.520 It's a bunch of business leaders, organizational leaders, uh, an 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.280 investment audience. I mean, if they need to go back 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.959 to their institution and really think about their d I 0:19:31.080 --> 0:19:35.560 d e I policies. Um, what would be one first 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:39.040 big step that you would say that they need to do. Yeah, 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.119 I think the most important first step is to take stock, right, 0:19:42.160 --> 0:19:44.879 take stock of where are we today? Are we talking 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.080 about this? Do we have a common definition of what 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.400 we think good looks like? And do we have an 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.080 aspiration and a goal? And do we know how far 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.639 we are from that? Until we as a leadership team 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:58.680 agree that this is the core gender strategic imperative item 0:19:58.760 --> 0:20:01.359 and we have us shared under standing of where we 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:03.399 are and when we would wish to be and we 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.080 know how to define that gap, we are going to 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.240 have a hard time with this conversation. So step one 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.560 is for sure understanding and assessing a starting point, and 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:14.800 then right after that is exploring if any of these 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:16.680 key actions that I started to mention here and that 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:21.200 are more in the paper released, are you doing those 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.440 things or not. It's a quicker way that we start 0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.280