Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. More employers are
Speaker 1: talking about it, they're taking steps to improve it. More
Speaker 1: employees care about the companies they work for doing just that.
Speaker 1: We're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion in our next
Speaker 1: guest is working with other companies when it comes to
Speaker 1: d e I. Julie Kaufman is Chief Diversity Officer at
Speaker 1: Bannon Company. As such, she oversees the company's global diversity,
Speaker 1: equity and inclusion practice, and she joins us on the
Speaker 1: phone in Chicago. Julie, nice to have you here with us.
Speaker 1: How are you? I'm doing fine, Carol, how are you
Speaker 1: doing today? I'm doing well. I keep thinking the summer
Speaker 1: is going to get quiet, and I keep getting fooled.
Speaker 1: It's not tell me how busy you've been in terms
Speaker 1: of your practice. You know it's been crazy busy, just
Speaker 1: like you're describing there. I think that the um the
Speaker 1: floods are unleashed a little bit. Obviously with all the
Speaker 1: events of course, the pandemic, but then after the murder
Speaker 1: of George Floyd, the number other events around racial hatred
Speaker 1: a lot of companies started asking themselves what do we
Speaker 1: need to be doing differently around the topics of diversity, equity,
Speaker 1: inclusion to try and create more space, more opportunity for
Speaker 1: all talents across the board, and that has kept us
Speaker 1: quite busy both internally and working with our clients on
Speaker 1: actions to take to try and really move the needle
Speaker 1: on outcomes. What's the typical situation, Julie, when you work
Speaker 1: with a client that you walk into, what are the problems,
Speaker 1: what's the what's the think that our corporate think that
Speaker 1: needs to change? Give me, give me some ideas, you know.
Speaker 1: I think there can be a variety of situations, but
Speaker 1: often leadership has identified that there's a gap. There's a
Speaker 1: gap somewhere, could be in representation or not they're having
Speaker 1: talents of diverse backgrounds represented in the workforce in on
Speaker 1: their leadership team and sufficient numbers. It can be a
Speaker 1: gap and live experience, lived experience whether or not the
Speaker 1: employees again of different backgrounds, races, gender, etcetera, are having
Speaker 1: the same experience and are feeling the same sense of belonging,
Speaker 1: support and trust in the organization. And so from what
Speaker 1: we've got is a leadership team that said, we know
Speaker 1: we have a tought an issue, we know even opportunity,
Speaker 1: but we're not sure what actions we can take. We're
Speaker 1: not sure we're to start, and we're not sure necessarily
Speaker 1: what are some of the best things we can do
Speaker 1: to try and move the needle. And some of the
Speaker 1: work that we've put out in this recent paper around
Speaker 1: some proven actions that we know can change the outcomes
Speaker 1: around both retention, recruitment as well as overall employee sentiment
Speaker 1: are things that we're working with employers on today and
Speaker 1: our clients to try and really make a difference. Um,
Speaker 1: step by step. It's a long journey, by the way.
Speaker 1: It's something you change overnight, but you gotta get started somewhere. Well.
Speaker 1: And it's funny that you say that, because I think
Speaker 1: about in the last year and a half or so,
Speaker 1: right coming off of the pandemic, coming off of George Floyd,
Speaker 1: how many conversations we've all had about wait a minute,
Speaker 1: the injustices in society, the inequities. It's not new, folks,
Speaker 1: It's been around for a long time. We're talking about it, though,
Speaker 1: it feels like in a different way. But enough of talk,
Speaker 1: let's take steps and actions. To change it exactly. I
Speaker 1: think that's the set to mention of many, not just
Speaker 1: the broader population based As you mentioned, people care about
Speaker 1: this more and more and they're selecting their next role
Speaker 1: when they're talking with the companies they work for. But
Speaker 1: leaders themselves are saying enough of the talk, where how
Speaker 1: do we take some actions that can make a difference.
Speaker 1: And so in this most recent report that we put out,
Speaker 1: we tried to talk through ten action that we think
Speaker 1: have real evidence and research behind them that really moved
Speaker 1: the change the outcomes that I mentioned on things like recruitment,
Speaker 1: on things like retention, and so some of the specific
Speaker 1: actions in particular that can make a difference UM around
Speaker 1: first of all, having real c suite commitment and accountability.
Speaker 1: That means having real leadership identified as accountable for these outcomes,
Speaker 1: sharing some of your information, being more public with your
Speaker 1: aspirations and your goals, but also allows a lot of
Speaker 1: resources to allocating resources. And I should say two differing
Speaker 1: ways of both changing the way we recruit, changes the
Speaker 1: way we talk with one another, changing the way we
Speaker 1: think about our next assignments, etcetera. UM and I can
Speaker 1: talk a little bit more abou a few practices in
Speaker 1: a few moments. Well, and what's interesting too, Well, talk
Speaker 1: to us about those practices, um and tell us specifically,
Speaker 1: you know, tell us a little bit about what you're doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe I'll just pick at least one to start with, Carol.
Speaker 1: Around this idea of talent acquisition, I think so many
Speaker 1: people say, Okay, well, how do I try and get
Speaker 1: more talents here in my organization of different backgrounds and
Speaker 1: so one of the things we've been talking a lot
Speaker 1: about is adopting a skills first approach to talent acquisition.
Speaker 1: So often we have credentials in place. You need a
Speaker 1: four year degree to do this, you need ten years
Speaker 1: experience to do this. But instead of focusing on those
Speaker 1: credentials which do not always equates to actually being successful
Speaker 1: in the job, if we can be a little bit
Speaker 1: more skills first as a clear way to mitigate this, uh,
Speaker 1: these exclusionary practices, So you think about folks that might
Speaker 1: have demonstrated quoting skills or demonstrated um uh different skills
Speaker 1: and operational settings and being able to address look for those.
Speaker 1: Put your recruiting apparatus looking for those and looking for
Speaker 1: part ownership supply organizations in different cities and geographies where
Speaker 1: you can really start to get a flywheel going of
Speaker 1: finding folks with the skills you need and then being
Speaker 1: able to have success and then helping you grow that
Speaker 1: talent base over time. Right, go to different pools. Right,
Speaker 1: We keep hearing that over and over. Don't keep going
Speaker 1: in the same place as to recruit if you really
Speaker 1: want to mix things up. Having said that, how important
Speaker 1: is it when a company is recruiting that their C suite,
Speaker 1: their board And I'm obviously talking about publicly health companies
Speaker 1: here at this point, but I mean private companies have
Speaker 1: boards as well too, But I mean, how important is
Speaker 1: it that from the top down you're seeing diversity inclusion?
Speaker 1: It's you know, you've got to walk the talk. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it couldn't be more important. Actually, you're right onto something.
Speaker 1: And first of all, it has to be present in
Speaker 1: the representation in that boardroom and in that C suite,
Speaker 1: and where there are gaps in diverse representation, there has
Speaker 1: to be clear focus on ways in which you're going
Speaker 1: to build that pipeline over time. With succession planning in particular, though,
Speaker 1: we also look for those boards and those management teams
Speaker 1: to set clear aspirations and goals, to be publicly talking
Speaker 1: about what those goals are and then creating usually some
Speaker 1: sort of oversight body. It can be a sub committee
Speaker 1: of the board, it can be a pass force, it
Speaker 1: can be a council. But it's a group of leaders
Speaker 1: that are truly empowered to not only set out those aspirations,
Speaker 1: but to take those actions and be held accountable for
Speaker 1: progress on the various areas of improvements the company has
Speaker 1: set out in front of it. And I think saying
Speaker 1: really communicating well interparently to your organization internally and to
Speaker 1: your customers externally is quite important along this multi year journey.
Speaker 1: Truly what gives you hope that something is going to
Speaker 1: be different this time around? And forgive me, I'm a
Speaker 1: very optimistic person. I believe in change. I've seen changes happen.
Speaker 1: But it's safe to say it's pretty upsetting that we're
Speaker 1: still talking about diversity inclusion. You know, um, after decades
Speaker 1: of supposed, you know, everybody understanding that there are problems
Speaker 1: out there and supposed to be working to make it change,
Speaker 1: you know, to make it better. Absolutely know, Carl's the
Speaker 1: right push and I am optimistic by nature as well,
Speaker 1: and I'm really optimistic this time because of the way
Speaker 1: I hear my colleagues and our clients talk about this.
Speaker 1: I think there's been an awareness growth of the pro
Speaker 1: inequities in our society, but that there are things that
Speaker 1: the corporation can do, whereas maybe ten fifteen years ago,
Speaker 1: too often we look towards governments, are not for profits
Speaker 1: to still these you know, to fix these problems, to
Speaker 1: address these gaps. And now we're saying, look, if we
Speaker 1: have a racial wealth gap in this country, the corporations
Speaker 1: are the ones of the jobs. We have to take
Speaker 1: actions to make a difference. And I'm so proud for
Speaker 1: us to be a founding member of the one ten
Speaker 1: Coalition as an example of a group of companies over
Speaker 1: fifty that have come together now and maybe a pledge
Speaker 1: that we're gonna hire one million Black Americans over the
Speaker 1: next ten years into family sustaining wage jobs with real
Speaker 1: career growth, and they're not going to require a four
Speaker 1: year degree. It's the commitments to skills based hiring. It's
Speaker 1: a commitments career path, an advancement to Black Americans is
Speaker 1: a way to really make meaningful progress on the wealth gap.
Speaker 1: And we've got, like I said, busy blue chip employers
Speaker 1: that have made that commitment and are working now on
Speaker 1: um listing those jobs in the various communities, and we're
Speaker 1: working on talent partnerships in those communities to sort of
Speaker 1: have that halfway of different groups of talent with the
Speaker 1: right upskilling opportunities to be ready for these jobs and
Speaker 1: to take advantage of these opportunities. So I'm doing so
Speaker 1: quick math. You said, um, a million Black Americans over
Speaker 1: ten years fifty I think blue chip companies are companies
Speaker 1: that are involved in this, so that I think works
Speaker 1: out to two thousand Black Americans a year. I mean,
Speaker 1: could we not do this faster? And if we can't, why,
Speaker 1: well the good I mean, look, this is one coalition.
Speaker 1: If I think they're gonna be many that are formed,
Speaker 1: there's a there's a number of other coalitions out there
Speaker 1: in New York City themselves. But you know what I'm
Speaker 1: getting You know what I'm getting to. It's it's I think, yeah,
Speaker 1: go ahead, sorry interrupt as I say the reason we
Speaker 1: can't go faster. First of all, I think we can
Speaker 1: and we should push faster, but we have to realize
Speaker 1: that talent acquisition is just the beginning. What you really
Speaker 1: need is to also shape the culture, shape the environment
Speaker 1: to ensure that this talent will be successful in the
Speaker 1: organizations that it joins. That means creating different levels of mentorship, sponsorship,
Speaker 1: career growth opportunities, and real focus on the lived experience
Speaker 1: for a group of individuals that may not walk in
Speaker 1: the door right off the bat, trusting their employer or
Speaker 1: believing they have a sense of belonging the way other
Speaker 1: groups that have see themselves more in the majority, like
Speaker 1: their leadership team might feel that way. So it takes
Speaker 1: investments over time to both get the new talent or
Speaker 1: the existing talent in seat and then grow into the
Speaker 1: leadership roles and keep that flywheel going. And I think
Speaker 1: that the worst thing we could do is rush and
Speaker 1: try and over recruit beyond the organization's ability to maintain
Speaker 1: and create an environment where that talent can thrive well
Speaker 1: and to interesting. You know, you do talk about and
Speaker 1: you shared some notes with us, but about mentoring and
Speaker 1: sponsorship programs. How early does that need to start to
Speaker 1: really make it effective and make a difference. You know, honestly,
Speaker 1: I think it can't start too soon. We think about
Speaker 1: it inside band and a lot of our clients are
Speaker 1: doing the same with from that moment of offer, who
Speaker 1: is that person that's really connected with that individual and
Speaker 1: acts as that first colleague or friend and can help
Speaker 1: them understand the organization, navigate the decision process, and then
Speaker 1: when they start their job, be there to help them
Speaker 1: understand the lay of the lands, whether we're remote or
Speaker 1: in person, but when the office, how that works, how
Speaker 1: the different norms and communication styles work. And then over time,
Speaker 1: I think this has a transition into more of a
Speaker 1: coaching mentoring relationship where someone in more of a leadership
Speaker 1: role in their function, in their business unit, in their
Speaker 1: division takes a specific interest in helping that person navigate
Speaker 1: career choices and growing further into their job. So I
Speaker 1: think it's too late if you wait till the third
Speaker 1: promotion before we say, oh, yes, we should mentor you
Speaker 1: even more. I think this is something that starts at
Speaker 1: the ground up and creates what we like to call
Speaker 1: a ring of support for this talent as they're arriving,
Speaker 1: and it just grows and um evolved over time as
Speaker 1: the needs of the person involved. We're talking with Julie Kaufman.
Speaker 1: She's Chief Diversity Officer ahead of Global diversity, equity and
Speaker 1: inclusion at Bay and Company. Still with us on the
Speaker 1: phone from Chicago, Julie, What I do wonder too when
Speaker 1: it comes to diversity equity inclusion. You work with clients
Speaker 1: across a lot of industries and regions. Are there variations
Speaker 1: when it comes to the industry or variations when it
Speaker 1: comes to the region when it comes to d EI
Speaker 1: needs or problems? Absolutely, I think there are variations based
Speaker 1: on the mix in the community. So from a regional standpoint,
Speaker 1: you might have parts of our country that there's more
Speaker 1: of a lot next population, parts of the country there's
Speaker 1: more Asian American population, or the mix may change for that.
Speaker 1: And then an industry is for sure both functional types
Speaker 1: you know, engineers and one industry versus you have more
Speaker 1: artisans and other industries, perhaps more manufacturing jobs in some
Speaker 1: places and more white collar and other places. So you
Speaker 1: have to flex these um different tools if you will,
Speaker 1: have these different actions to meet the needs of the populations.
Speaker 1: But the thing that is common in my experience in
Speaker 1: a way across industries and regions is the importance of
Speaker 1: listening and the importance of really understanding the lived experience
Speaker 1: of your employees, especially those from underrepresented background such that
Speaker 1: you can then understand where there are gaps and understand
Speaker 1: opportunities to sort of provide more support. Whether it isn't
Speaker 1: the spirit of coaching and mentoring that we were just discussing.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's training, maybe it's career pappening, but maybe it's
Speaker 1: also just better communications around um the performance management processes
Speaker 1: or the growth process that your company. But there is
Speaker 1: no substitute for really understanding the differences and lived experience
Speaker 1: across different populations that your company and then putting together
Speaker 1: action plans to try and move that forward to a
Speaker 1: place where folks are really thriving in their roles. Julie,
Speaker 1: do you think we need to put it back into effect.
Speaker 1: Quotas we've argued are some of our our team on
Speaker 1: the opinion side have argued and reported on how quotas
Speaker 1: have helped in terms of bringing more women into the workplace.
Speaker 1: What's your take in terms of quotas when it comes
Speaker 1: to minorities. Yeah, quote is like so many words. Get
Speaker 1: is a loaded term, and I know creates the antibodies,
Speaker 1: which is a topical term as well. I guess these
Speaker 1: days among COVID. But you know, we've thought about it
Speaker 1: more like goals and quotas we've thought about progress versus
Speaker 1: absolute right like guys, my strong belief is that if
Speaker 1: we're talking to a client, we're talking a lot about
Speaker 1: how diversus your leadership team, how diversus your workforce, and
Speaker 1: do they mirror one another. What you should be aspiring
Speaker 1: to is, of course, a workforce that mirrors the customers
Speaker 1: you serve or the communities you reside in, and a
Speaker 1: leadership team that mirrors that work force. And if we
Speaker 1: can start to get those ratios more in line and
Speaker 1: they're less gaps and we can grow the talent that way,
Speaker 1: I think that's an effective approach as opposed to setting
Speaker 1: absolute numerical targets, which can always be subject to reasons
Speaker 1: that they're difficult and given industry, given community, etcetera. Um So,
Speaker 1: my own personal due is to stick to things like
Speaker 1: the right goals and aspiration. Now, now, one thing I
Speaker 1: will say, though, is I really believe in the importance
Speaker 1: of measurable outcomes and metrics. And it can be progress forwards,
Speaker 1: it can be mixed oriented, it can be ratios as
Speaker 1: I just talked about, but I do think you need tangible,
Speaker 1: measurable outcomes that you are holding yourself accountable to and
Speaker 1: talking about your progress or gaps to getting there. You know,
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Are Lisa Brahmo. It's one of the hosts
Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Surveillance on Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg TV. She's
Speaker 1: got an opinion Bloomberg opinion column that's out on the
Speaker 1: Bloomberg and she's specifically talking about the wealth gap and
Speaker 1: what the Fed does or doesn't do in terms of
Speaker 1: perpetuating it. And she's saying, you know, the Fed to
Speaker 1: cries a wealth gap that it helps perpetuate. And the
Speaker 1: longer the Central Bank continues alter easy monetary conditions, the
Speaker 1: more the richest families benefit disproportionately. How can bodies like
Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve help in this process? Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: great question, and I I've seen that piece. Actually, I
Speaker 1: think seems terrific. It's not my area of expertise, you know,
Speaker 1: to be completely honest to you, in terms of federals
Speaker 1: or but I do think that you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: in terms of bigger policies by something like the Fed
Speaker 1: O our policymakers. Yeah, well, like you know, the Childcare
Speaker 1: Act or you know, ability to try and get kids
Speaker 1: out of poverty, abilities to help families have supports such
Speaker 1: that they can then uh be working in the workplace,
Speaker 1: but at the same time not worrying that they're going
Speaker 1: to have their kids not have the care they need.
Speaker 1: I think those are important steps, and I think in general,
Speaker 1: thinking about ways that companies that are meeting certain goals
Speaker 1: are providing more support to those employees. You know, maybe
Speaker 1: there's creative ways from policy standpoints that we're um helping
Speaker 1: those organizations have stimulus to do those type of things.
Speaker 1: But I do think that this is a place where
Speaker 1: private sector public sector needs to work together, and they're
Speaker 1: not for profitive of role to play as well. This
Speaker 1: is a systemic, multi generational problem, as you said well before, Carol,
Speaker 1: So it's going to take all of these different aspects
Speaker 1: of our society to come together and try and make
Speaker 1: differences here. You know what's interesting, Julie, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you saw this. This was a story in Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Business Week and it was a profile piece of Laura Murphy.
Speaker 1: She's former director of the a c l U Legislative Officer.
Speaker 1: She's a pioneer of the Corporate Civil Rights Audit, which
Speaker 1: is a new tool for getting companies to really confront
Speaker 1: their role in perpetuating racial disparities. She spent two years
Speaker 1: auditing Facebook. She's a senior advisor to Airbnb. What you
Speaker 1: know internal or external controls? Do you in vain or
Speaker 1: do you think companies have to have to confront you know,
Speaker 1: a firm or a company or institution's role in perpetuating
Speaker 1: those racial disparities, because sometimes they're there without individuals really know.
Speaker 1: We talk about bias uh in data. So I'm just
Speaker 1: curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, I love that, and
Speaker 1: I think, um, those are super important. Like if you
Speaker 1: think about the way our regulatory and our financial system works, right,
Speaker 1: everybody is there's a there's a defined set of terms
Speaker 1: that we do and we report our financials as a corporation. Right,
Speaker 1: there's revenue, this costs, there's the gap accepted metrics. And
Speaker 1: yet what we don't have on the topic that you
Speaker 1: just talked, you know, talked about here with racial equity,
Speaker 1: if you will, is an accepted way to talk about
Speaker 1: what does good look like and what doesn't it look like?
Speaker 1: And what's the right office that we have a language
Speaker 1: and we can start to hold folks accountable. I think
Speaker 1: we need outcomes metrics as well as process metrics that
Speaker 1: can demonstrate this is what good looks like, and you
Speaker 1: are a company should be certified if you will, or
Speaker 1: at least have a report card on where you're doing
Speaker 1: well and where you're falling short. And there's a number
Speaker 1: of those sorts of audit in things like the environment
Speaker 1: and climate other places. I think it needs to be
Speaker 1: in this area as well, that we should really come
Speaker 1: together and try and agree on a pool set and
Speaker 1: a set of outcome metrics like you're describing, to help
Speaker 1: companies know where they stand right. You know, it's interesting
Speaker 1: because I do feel like we talk a lot about
Speaker 1: E S G. I know these are things you're familiar
Speaker 1: with and other things. You know companies are paying attention
Speaker 1: to that too, But unless we have the metrics to
Speaker 1: really measure it. I'm I'm a numbers person, and so
Speaker 1: I know not everything you can put a clear number
Speaker 1: on it. But the more we can clearly define what
Speaker 1: E S G is, R D E I is, the
Speaker 1: better we can move towards it as a goal. Agree,
Speaker 1: I think if you don't have holes that you can measure.
Speaker 1: When we talked about this, at beIN a lot that
Speaker 1: we have got to have a tangible way to define
Speaker 1: the success, a number or set of numbers that can
Speaker 1: measure how far we are from that, and then a
Speaker 1: mechanism for getting into the root causes of why is
Speaker 1: it not moving or why is it not moving as
Speaker 1: quickly as we'd like, and how do we start to
Speaker 1: address those root causes to get at that outcomes that
Speaker 1: we've all agreed is the right one to measure and
Speaker 1: absence more globally or countrywide established set of metrics that's
Speaker 1: going to be left to each company to define their
Speaker 1: own and part of what we're hoping with this research
Speaker 1: paper and others start to have a basis of conversation
Speaker 1: of could we develop more standard set of outcomes that
Speaker 1: more companies would utilize, and then we might be able
Speaker 1: to have this dialogue in a different fashion, as you suggest.
Speaker 1: One last question, So I'm thinking about our audience that's listening.
Speaker 1: It's a bunch of business leaders, organizational leaders, uh, an
Speaker 1: investment audience. I mean, if they need to go back
Speaker 1: to their institution and really think about their d I
Speaker 1: d e I policies. Um, what would be one first
Speaker 1: big step that you would say that they need to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think the most important first step is to take stock, right,
Speaker 1: take stock of where are we today? Are we talking
Speaker 1: about this? Do we have a common definition of what
Speaker 1: we think good looks like? And do we have an
Speaker 1: aspiration and a goal? And do we know how far
Speaker 1: we are from that? Until we as a leadership team
Speaker 1: agree that this is the core gender strategic imperative item
Speaker 1: and we have us shared under standing of where we
Speaker 1: are and when we would wish to be and we
Speaker 1: know how to define that gap, we are going to
Speaker 1: have a hard time with this conversation. So step one
Speaker 1: is for sure understanding and assessing a starting point, and
Speaker 1: then right after that is exploring if any of these
Speaker 1: key actions that I started to mention here and that
Speaker 1: are more in the paper released, are you doing those
Speaker 1: things or not. It's a quicker way that we start
Speaker 1: getting after and learning from the experience of others and
Speaker 1: sort of take stock of where are we and what
Speaker 1: can we do differently. This is a time for action,
Speaker 1: not just talk, and we need to get moving forward
Speaker 1: on trying things that we know work. All right, kind
Speaker 1: of leave it there, Julie, Thank you so much. Julie Kaufman.
Speaker 1: She's Chief Diversity Officer ahead of Global Diversity Equity Inclusion
Speaker 1: over at Bannon Company, the consulting company, and joining us
Speaker 1: on the phone from Chicago. Some great deep dives for
Speaker 1: us with Julie as well as with Kathy Wood and
Speaker 1: some others here on the Tuesday edition of Bloomberg Business Week.