1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,160 Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg 2 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. More employers are 3 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: talking about it, they're taking steps to improve it. More 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: employees care about the companies they work for doing just that. 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:18,840 Speaker 1: We're talking about diversity, equity and inclusion in our next 6 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: guest is working with other companies when it comes to 7 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: d e I. Julie Kaufman is Chief Diversity Officer at 8 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: Bannon Company. As such, she oversees the company's global diversity, 9 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: equity and inclusion practice, and she joins us on the 10 00:00:31,400 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: phone in Chicago. Julie, nice to have you here with us. 11 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: How are you? I'm doing fine, Carol, how are you 12 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: doing today? I'm doing well. I keep thinking the summer 13 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: is going to get quiet, and I keep getting fooled. 14 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: It's not tell me how busy you've been in terms 15 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: of your practice. You know it's been crazy busy, just 16 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: like you're describing there. I think that the um the 17 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: floods are unleashed a little bit. Obviously with all the 18 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: events of course, the pandemic, but then after the murder 19 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: of George Floyd, the number other events around racial hatred 20 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 1: a lot of companies started asking themselves what do we 21 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: need to be doing differently around the topics of diversity, equity, 22 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: inclusion to try and create more space, more opportunity for 23 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: all talents across the board, and that has kept us 24 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: quite busy both internally and working with our clients on 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 1: actions to take to try and really move the needle 26 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: on outcomes. What's the typical situation, Julie, when you work 27 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: with a client that you walk into, what are the problems, 28 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: what's the what's the think that our corporate think that 29 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: needs to change? Give me, give me some ideas, you know. 30 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 1: I think there can be a variety of situations, but 31 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: often leadership has identified that there's a gap. There's a 32 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 1: gap somewhere, could be in representation or not they're having 33 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: talents of diverse backgrounds represented in the workforce in on 34 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: their leadership team and sufficient numbers. It can be a 35 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: gap and live experience, lived experience whether or not the 36 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: employees again of different backgrounds, races, gender, etcetera, are having 37 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: the same experience and are feeling the same sense of belonging, 38 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: support and trust in the organization. And so from what 39 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 1: we've got is a leadership team that said, we know 40 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: we have a tought an issue, we know even opportunity, 41 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: but we're not sure what actions we can take. We're 42 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: not sure we're to start, and we're not sure necessarily 43 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: what are some of the best things we can do 44 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: to try and move the needle. And some of the 45 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: work that we've put out in this recent paper around 46 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: some proven actions that we know can change the outcomes 47 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: around both retention, recruitment as well as overall employee sentiment 48 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: are things that we're working with employers on today and 49 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: our clients to try and really make a difference. Um, 50 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: step by step. It's a long journey, by the way. 51 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: It's something you change overnight, but you gotta get started somewhere. Well. 52 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: And it's funny that you say that, because I think 53 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: about in the last year and a half or so, 54 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: right coming off of the pandemic, coming off of George Floyd, 55 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: how many conversations we've all had about wait a minute, 56 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: the injustices in society, the inequities. It's not new, folks, 57 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: It's been around for a long time. We're talking about it, though, 58 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: it feels like in a different way. But enough of talk, 59 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: let's take steps and actions. To change it exactly. I 60 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 1: think that's the set to mention of many, not just 61 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: the broader population based As you mentioned, people care about 62 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: this more and more and they're selecting their next role 63 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:08,800 Speaker 1: when they're talking with the companies they work for. But 64 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: leaders themselves are saying enough of the talk, where how 65 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: do we take some actions that can make a difference. 66 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:15,680 Speaker 1: And so in this most recent report that we put out, 67 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: we tried to talk through ten action that we think 68 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: have real evidence and research behind them that really moved 69 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: the change the outcomes that I mentioned on things like recruitment, 70 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: on things like retention, and so some of the specific 71 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: actions in particular that can make a difference UM around 72 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: first of all, having real c suite commitment and accountability. 73 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 1: That means having real leadership identified as accountable for these outcomes, 74 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: sharing some of your information, being more public with your 75 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: aspirations and your goals, but also allows a lot of 76 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: resources to allocating resources. And I should say two differing 77 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 1: ways of both changing the way we recruit, changes the 78 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: way we talk with one another, changing the way we 79 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,080 Speaker 1: think about our next assignments, etcetera. UM and I can 80 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: talk a little bit more abou a few practices in 81 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: a few moments. Well, and what's interesting too, Well, talk 82 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: to us about those practices, um and tell us specifically, 83 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: you know, tell us a little bit about what you're doing. Yeah, 84 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: maybe I'll just pick at least one to start with, Carol. 85 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: Around this idea of talent acquisition, I think so many 86 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,799 Speaker 1: people say, Okay, well, how do I try and get 87 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: more talents here in my organization of different backgrounds and 88 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: so one of the things we've been talking a lot 89 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 1: about is adopting a skills first approach to talent acquisition. 90 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: So often we have credentials in place. You need a 91 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: four year degree to do this, you need ten years 92 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 1: experience to do this. But instead of focusing on those 93 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: credentials which do not always equates to actually being successful 94 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: in the job, if we can be a little bit 95 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,279 Speaker 1: more skills first as a clear way to mitigate this, uh, 96 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: these exclusionary practices, So you think about folks that might 97 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: have demonstrated quoting skills or demonstrated um uh different skills 98 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:56,480 Speaker 1: and operational settings and being able to address look for those. 99 00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: Put your recruiting apparatus looking for those and looking for 100 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: part ownership supply organizations in different cities and geographies where 101 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 1: you can really start to get a flywheel going of 102 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: finding folks with the skills you need and then being 103 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: able to have success and then helping you grow that 104 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: talent base over time. Right, go to different pools. Right, 105 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: We keep hearing that over and over. Don't keep going 106 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: in the same place as to recruit if you really 107 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,279 Speaker 1: want to mix things up. Having said that, how important 108 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 1: is it when a company is recruiting that their C suite, 109 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: their board And I'm obviously talking about publicly health companies 110 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: here at this point, but I mean private companies have 111 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: boards as well too, But I mean, how important is 112 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: it that from the top down you're seeing diversity inclusion? 113 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: It's you know, you've got to walk the talk. Absolutely, 114 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 1: it couldn't be more important. Actually, you're right onto something. 115 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: And first of all, it has to be present in 116 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: the representation in that boardroom and in that C suite, 117 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: and where there are gaps in diverse representation, there has 118 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: to be clear focus on ways in which you're going 119 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: to build that pipeline over time. With succession planning in particular, though, 120 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: we also look for those boards and those management teams 121 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 1: to set clear aspirations and goals, to be publicly talking 122 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: about what those goals are and then creating usually some 123 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: sort of oversight body. It can be a sub committee 124 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: of the board, it can be a pass force, it 125 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: can be a council. But it's a group of leaders 126 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: that are truly empowered to not only set out those aspirations, 127 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 1: but to take those actions and be held accountable for 128 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: progress on the various areas of improvements the company has 129 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: set out in front of it. And I think saying 130 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,039 Speaker 1: really communicating well interparently to your organization internally and to 131 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: your customers externally is quite important along this multi year journey. 132 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: Truly what gives you hope that something is going to 133 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: be different this time around? And forgive me, I'm a 134 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:44,919 Speaker 1: very optimistic person. I believe in change. I've seen changes happen. 135 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,279 Speaker 1: But it's safe to say it's pretty upsetting that we're 136 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: still talking about diversity inclusion. You know, um, after decades 137 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: of supposed, you know, everybody understanding that there are problems 138 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: out there and supposed to be working to make it change, 139 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: you know, to make it better. Absolutely know, Carl's the 140 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,880 Speaker 1: right push and I am optimistic by nature as well, 141 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: and I'm really optimistic this time because of the way 142 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 1: I hear my colleagues and our clients talk about this. 143 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: I think there's been an awareness growth of the pro 144 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: inequities in our society, but that there are things that 145 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: the corporation can do, whereas maybe ten fifteen years ago, 146 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: too often we look towards governments, are not for profits 147 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 1: to still these you know, to fix these problems, to 148 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: address these gaps. And now we're saying, look, if we 149 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: have a racial wealth gap in this country, the corporations 150 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: are the ones of the jobs. We have to take 151 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: actions to make a difference. And I'm so proud for 152 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: us to be a founding member of the one ten 153 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: Coalition as an example of a group of companies over 154 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: fifty that have come together now and maybe a pledge 155 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: that we're gonna hire one million Black Americans over the 156 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,760 Speaker 1: next ten years into family sustaining wage jobs with real 157 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 1: career growth, and they're not going to require a four 158 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: year degree. It's the commitments to skills based hiring. It's 159 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: a commitments career path, an advancement to Black Americans is 160 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 1: a way to really make meaningful progress on the wealth gap. 161 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: And we've got, like I said, busy blue chip employers 162 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: that have made that commitment and are working now on 163 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: um listing those jobs in the various communities, and we're 164 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: working on talent partnerships in those communities to sort of 165 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: have that halfway of different groups of talent with the 166 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: right upskilling opportunities to be ready for these jobs and 167 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,920 Speaker 1: to take advantage of these opportunities. So I'm doing so 168 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: quick math. You said, um, a million Black Americans over 169 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: ten years fifty I think blue chip companies are companies 170 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: that are involved in this, so that I think works 171 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 1: out to two thousand Black Americans a year. I mean, 172 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: could we not do this faster? And if we can't, why, 173 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: well the good I mean, look, this is one coalition. 174 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: If I think they're gonna be many that are formed, 175 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: there's a there's a number of other coalitions out there 176 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 1: in New York City themselves. But you know what I'm 177 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: getting You know what I'm getting to. It's it's I think, yeah, 178 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: go ahead, sorry interrupt as I say the reason we 179 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: can't go faster. First of all, I think we can 180 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: and we should push faster, but we have to realize 181 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: that talent acquisition is just the beginning. What you really 182 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: need is to also shape the culture, shape the environment 183 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: to ensure that this talent will be successful in the 184 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: organizations that it joins. That means creating different levels of mentorship, sponsorship, 185 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: career growth opportunities, and real focus on the lived experience 186 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: for a group of individuals that may not walk in 187 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: the door right off the bat, trusting their employer or 188 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: believing they have a sense of belonging the way other 189 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: groups that have see themselves more in the majority, like 190 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 1: their leadership team might feel that way. So it takes 191 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: investments over time to both get the new talent or 192 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,599 Speaker 1: the existing talent in seat and then grow into the 193 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: leadership roles and keep that flywheel going. And I think 194 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: that the worst thing we could do is rush and 195 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: try and over recruit beyond the organization's ability to maintain 196 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: and create an environment where that talent can thrive well 197 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,720 Speaker 1: and to interesting. You know, you do talk about and 198 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:03,719 Speaker 1: you shared some notes with us, but about mentoring and 199 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: sponsorship programs. How early does that need to start to 200 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 1: really make it effective and make a difference. You know, honestly, 201 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: I think it can't start too soon. We think about 202 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: it inside band and a lot of our clients are 203 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: doing the same with from that moment of offer, who 204 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: is that person that's really connected with that individual and 205 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 1: acts as that first colleague or friend and can help 206 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,079 Speaker 1: them understand the organization, navigate the decision process, and then 207 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: when they start their job, be there to help them 208 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: understand the lay of the lands, whether we're remote or 209 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,559 Speaker 1: in person, but when the office, how that works, how 210 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: the different norms and communication styles work. And then over time, 211 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: I think this has a transition into more of a 212 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: coaching mentoring relationship where someone in more of a leadership 213 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: role in their function, in their business unit, in their 214 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: division takes a specific interest in helping that person navigate 215 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: career choices and growing further into their job. So I 216 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: think it's too late if you wait till the third 217 00:10:57,440 --> 00:10:59,680 Speaker 1: promotion before we say, oh, yes, we should mentor you 218 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: even more. I think this is something that starts at 219 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: the ground up and creates what we like to call 220 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: a ring of support for this talent as they're arriving, 221 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: and it just grows and um evolved over time as 222 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,760 Speaker 1: the needs of the person involved. We're talking with Julie Kaufman. 223 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: She's Chief Diversity Officer ahead of Global diversity, equity and 224 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 1: inclusion at Bay and Company. Still with us on the 225 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: phone from Chicago, Julie, What I do wonder too when 226 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: it comes to diversity equity inclusion. You work with clients 227 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: across a lot of industries and regions. Are there variations 228 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: when it comes to the industry or variations when it 229 00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: comes to the region when it comes to d EI 230 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: needs or problems? Absolutely, I think there are variations based 231 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 1: on the mix in the community. So from a regional standpoint, 232 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: you might have parts of our country that there's more 233 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: of a lot next population, parts of the country there's 234 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: more Asian American population, or the mix may change for that. 235 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 1: And then an industry is for sure both functional types 236 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, engineers and one industry versus you have more 237 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: artisans and other industries, perhaps more manufacturing jobs in some 238 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: places and more white collar and other places. So you 239 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: have to flex these um different tools if you will, 240 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,479 Speaker 1: have these different actions to meet the needs of the populations. 241 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,199 Speaker 1: But the thing that is common in my experience in 242 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: a way across industries and regions is the importance of 243 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:23,079 Speaker 1: listening and the importance of really understanding the lived experience 244 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: of your employees, especially those from underrepresented background such that 245 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 1: you can then understand where there are gaps and understand 246 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: opportunities to sort of provide more support. Whether it isn't 247 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: the spirit of coaching and mentoring that we were just discussing. 248 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,480 Speaker 1: Maybe it's training, maybe it's career pappening, but maybe it's 249 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: also just better communications around um the performance management processes 250 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 1: or the growth process that your company. But there is 251 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: no substitute for really understanding the differences and lived experience 252 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 1: across different populations that your company and then putting together 253 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: action plans to try and move that forward to a 254 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,959 Speaker 1: place where folks are really thriving in their roles. Julie, 255 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: do you think we need to put it back into effect. 256 00:13:05,679 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: Quotas we've argued are some of our our team on 257 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: the opinion side have argued and reported on how quotas 258 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: have helped in terms of bringing more women into the workplace. 259 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: What's your take in terms of quotas when it comes 260 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: to minorities. Yeah, quote is like so many words. Get 261 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: is a loaded term, and I know creates the antibodies, 262 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 1: which is a topical term as well. I guess these 263 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 1: days among COVID. But you know, we've thought about it 264 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: more like goals and quotas we've thought about progress versus 265 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: absolute right like guys, my strong belief is that if 266 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: we're talking to a client, we're talking a lot about 267 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: how diversus your leadership team, how diversus your workforce, and 268 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: do they mirror one another. What you should be aspiring 269 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: to is, of course, a workforce that mirrors the customers 270 00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 1: you serve or the communities you reside in, and a 271 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: leadership team that mirrors that work force. And if we 272 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,599 Speaker 1: can start to get those ratios more in line and 273 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 1: they're less gaps and we can grow the talent that way, 274 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: I think that's an effective approach as opposed to setting 275 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: absolute numerical targets, which can always be subject to reasons 276 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,679 Speaker 1: that they're difficult and given industry, given community, etcetera. Um So, 277 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 1: my own personal due is to stick to things like 278 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: the right goals and aspiration. Now, now, one thing I 279 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: will say, though, is I really believe in the importance 280 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: of measurable outcomes and metrics. And it can be progress forwards, 281 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: it can be mixed oriented, it can be ratios as 282 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: I just talked about, but I do think you need tangible, 283 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,200 Speaker 1: measurable outcomes that you are holding yourself accountable to and 284 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: talking about your progress or gaps to getting there. You know, 285 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: it's interesting. Are Lisa Brahmo. It's one of the hosts 286 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Surveillance on Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg TV. She's 287 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: got an opinion Bloomberg opinion column that's out on the 288 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: Bloomberg and she's specifically talking about the wealth gap and 289 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: what the Fed does or doesn't do in terms of 290 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 1: perpetuating it. And she's saying, you know, the Fed to 291 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: cries a wealth gap that it helps perpetuate. And the 292 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: longer the Central Bank continues alter easy monetary conditions, the 293 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: more the richest families benefit disproportionately. How can bodies like 294 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve help in this process? Yeah, that's a 295 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: great question, and I I've seen that piece. Actually, I 296 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: think seems terrific. It's not my area of expertise, you know, 297 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: to be completely honest to you, in terms of federals 298 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: or but I do think that you know what I mean, 299 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: in terms of bigger policies by something like the Fed 300 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: O our policymakers. Yeah, well, like you know, the Childcare 301 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: Act or you know, ability to try and get kids 302 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: out of poverty, abilities to help families have supports such 303 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: that they can then uh be working in the workplace, 304 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: but at the same time not worrying that they're going 305 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: to have their kids not have the care they need. 306 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: I think those are important steps, and I think in general, 307 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: thinking about ways that companies that are meeting certain goals 308 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: are providing more support to those employees. You know, maybe 309 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: there's creative ways from policy standpoints that we're um helping 310 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: those organizations have stimulus to do those type of things. 311 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: But I do think that this is a place where 312 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: private sector public sector needs to work together, and they're 313 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: not for profitive of role to play as well. This 314 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 1: is a systemic, multi generational problem, as you said well before, Carol, 315 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: So it's going to take all of these different aspects 316 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 1: of our society to come together and try and make 317 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: differences here. You know what's interesting, Julie, I don't know 318 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,240 Speaker 1: if you saw this. This was a story in Bloomberg 319 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: Business Week and it was a profile piece of Laura Murphy. 320 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: She's former director of the a c l U Legislative Officer. 321 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: She's a pioneer of the Corporate Civil Rights Audit, which 322 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: is a new tool for getting companies to really confront 323 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: their role in perpetuating racial disparities. She spent two years 324 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 1: auditing Facebook. She's a senior advisor to Airbnb. What you 325 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: know internal or external controls? Do you in vain or 326 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 1: do you think companies have to have to confront you know, 327 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: a firm or a company or institution's role in perpetuating 328 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: those racial disparities, because sometimes they're there without individuals really know. 329 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: We talk about bias uh in data. So I'm just 330 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, I love that, and 331 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: I think, um, those are super important. Like if you 332 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: think about the way our regulatory and our financial system works, right, 333 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 1: everybody is there's a there's a defined set of terms 334 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 1: that we do and we report our financials as a corporation. Right, 335 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 1: there's revenue, this costs, there's the gap accepted metrics. And 336 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: yet what we don't have on the topic that you 337 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: just talked, you know, talked about here with racial equity, 338 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: if you will, is an accepted way to talk about 339 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 1: what does good look like and what doesn't it look like? 340 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: And what's the right office that we have a language 341 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: and we can start to hold folks accountable. I think 342 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: we need outcomes metrics as well as process metrics that 343 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: can demonstrate this is what good looks like, and you 344 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: are a company should be certified if you will, or 345 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 1: at least have a report card on where you're doing 346 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: well and where you're falling short. And there's a number 347 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: of those sorts of audit in things like the environment 348 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:55,919 Speaker 1: and climate other places. I think it needs to be 349 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: in this area as well, that we should really come 350 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 1: together and try and agree on a pool set and 351 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: a set of outcome metrics like you're describing, to help 352 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 1: companies know where they stand right. You know, it's interesting 353 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 1: because I do feel like we talk a lot about 354 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: E S G. I know these are things you're familiar 355 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,479 Speaker 1: with and other things. You know companies are paying attention 356 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: to that too, But unless we have the metrics to 357 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: really measure it. I'm I'm a numbers person, and so 358 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: I know not everything you can put a clear number 359 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 1: on it. But the more we can clearly define what 360 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: E S G is, R D E I is, the 361 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: better we can move towards it as a goal. Agree, 362 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: I think if you don't have holes that you can measure. 363 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: When we talked about this, at beIN a lot that 364 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: we have got to have a tangible way to define 365 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: the success, a number or set of numbers that can 366 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 1: measure how far we are from that, and then a 367 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 1: mechanism for getting into the root causes of why is 368 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: it not moving or why is it not moving as 369 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: quickly as we'd like, and how do we start to 370 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: address those root causes to get at that outcomes that 371 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 1: we've all agreed is the right one to measure and 372 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: absence more globally or countrywide established set of metrics that's 373 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: going to be left to each company to define their 374 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: own and part of what we're hoping with this research 375 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: paper and others start to have a basis of conversation 376 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: of could we develop more standard set of outcomes that 377 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 1: more companies would utilize, and then we might be able 378 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: to have this dialogue in a different fashion, as you suggest. 379 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: One last question, So I'm thinking about our audience that's listening. 380 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: It's a bunch of business leaders, organizational leaders, uh, an 381 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: investment audience. I mean, if they need to go back 382 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 1: to their institution and really think about their d I 383 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: d e I policies. Um, what would be one first 384 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: big step that you would say that they need to do. Yeah, 385 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 1: I think the most important first step is to take stock, right, 386 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: take stock of where are we today? Are we talking 387 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: about this? Do we have a common definition of what 388 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 1: we think good looks like? And do we have an 389 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: aspiration and a goal? And do we know how far 390 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: we are from that? Until we as a leadership team 391 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: agree that this is the core gender strategic imperative item 392 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: and we have us shared under standing of where we 393 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,399 Speaker 1: are and when we would wish to be and we 394 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: know how to define that gap, we are going to 395 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: have a hard time with this conversation. So step one 396 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: is for sure understanding and assessing a starting point, and 397 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: then right after that is exploring if any of these 398 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: key actions that I started to mention here and that 399 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: are more in the paper released, are you doing those 400 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 1: things or not. It's a quicker way that we start 401 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: getting after and learning from the experience of others and 402 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: sort of take stock of where are we and what 403 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 1: can we do differently. This is a time for action, 404 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: not just talk, and we need to get moving forward 405 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: on trying things that we know work. All right, kind 406 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: of leave it there, Julie, Thank you so much. Julie Kaufman. 407 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: She's Chief Diversity Officer ahead of Global Diversity Equity Inclusion 408 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: over at Bannon Company, the consulting company, and joining us 409 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: on the phone from Chicago. Some great deep dives for 410 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,600 Speaker 1: us with Julie as well as with Kathy Wood and 411 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: some others here on the Tuesday edition of Bloomberg Business Week.