Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbust Creative. I'm Bridget Todd,
Speaker 1: and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet.
Speaker 1: When the Queen died earlier this month, the Internet exploded,
Speaker 1: not just with tributes to her legacy or opinions about
Speaker 1: the monarchy, but also in conspiracy theories and racist, sexist
Speaker 1: attacks on Megan Markle. Now, this is something I spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about the ways that our
Speaker 1: internet landscape make it really easy to amplify attacks on
Speaker 1: women and women of color. But what is really interesting
Speaker 1: to me is what happens when you dig into the
Speaker 1: actual numbers of who exactly is spreading all this hate.
Speaker 1: According to research from There Are No Girls on the
Speaker 1: Internet guest Christopher Bouse, a Bot Sentinel, it actually takes
Speaker 1: a lot less people than you might think to gamify
Speaker 1: our social media platform and dominate online discourse about someone
Speaker 1: like Megan Markle. And I joined my friends Samantha and
Speaker 1: Annie at the podcast stuff Mom Never told you to
Speaker 1: talk all about it. This is kind of a convoluted segue,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to bring it up because it does
Speaker 1: bring me joy to remember me and my old Neo's
Speaker 1: angel email, um, receiving these things. But also I do
Speaker 1: think it kind of tangentially relates to what we're talking
Speaker 1: about today, and that there seems to be like these
Speaker 1: messages coming from we're not sure where. Um. So I'm
Speaker 1: very eager to learn about this podcast, a podcast that
Speaker 1: was a masterful transition. Thank you, thank you. But yes,
Speaker 1: I'm very eager to learn more about this. Can you
Speaker 1: tell us what we're going to be discussing today? Yes, so,
Speaker 1: as you just said, Annie, it is sort of related
Speaker 1: about this idea of who is able to really control
Speaker 1: conversations on the internet about one specific subject, and so
Speaker 1: today that topic is going to be Megan Markele Um
Speaker 1: as you all, I'm sure by now i'll probably know
Speaker 1: the queen died last week, to do you. I'm curious
Speaker 1: do you two have any like strong connection to the
Speaker 1: royal family, the monarchy, Like, is this something that you
Speaker 1: followed or you like could not care less have not
Speaker 1: followed it. I don't know anything about it. I personally
Speaker 1: could not care less. I it's it's been it's impossible
Speaker 1: to escape, I will say right now, UM, but I
Speaker 1: don't have any real feeling about it. I have some
Speaker 1: friends who do. I did go through a period where
Speaker 1: I was really into like entertainment from the UK and specifically,
Speaker 1: like I was in love with the idea of moving
Speaker 1: to London. But I've never been into the royal family.
Speaker 1: That's never made sense to me personally. But I have
Speaker 1: friends who are, so I guess I get it through there.
Speaker 1: So I'm old enough to remember, uh, like vividly remember
Speaker 1: instead of just being like kind of like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: was a kid. I remember this, the death of Diana,
Speaker 1: Princess Diana, and also uh, the love for William, Prince William,
Speaker 1: who is I think a couple of years younger than me.
Speaker 1: So of course like that era of trying to figure
Speaker 1: out watching these young princes grow up and following their stories.
Speaker 1: So not necessarily that I was caught up in the
Speaker 1: royal lifestyle or family, but I do remember that offset
Speaker 1: of seeing, uh, the huge controversies amongst the family at
Speaker 1: that point in time. Of course, as recently as everything
Speaker 1: has happened in the past ten years with Megan Markele,
Speaker 1: even Prince William getting married and all the different things,
Speaker 1: I have an understanding of what's going on, kind of
Speaker 1: like you as well. As the fact that I have
Speaker 1: understood my group of people that I follow have very
Speaker 1: strong opinions of colonialism, and I'm like, yeah, okay, distracts.
Speaker 1: So that's kind of where I stand in this mix totally.
Speaker 1: So I'm somewhere in the middle. I have to say
Speaker 1: right up front, I am not a careful follower of
Speaker 1: the royal family. I kind of bounce between like ambivalent
Speaker 1: to like, oh, I know about this, So I know
Speaker 1: that there are people who are obsessively following royal family
Speaker 1: and monarchy culture. And if I say anything that's incorrect,
Speaker 1: that's because I am not a careful follower of the
Speaker 1: royal family, but kind of like you, like, I have
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who are really into it. Um
Speaker 1: older I do have a theory that older moms, specifically
Speaker 1: like older black moms, have a real affinity for Diana.
Speaker 1: So growing up, my mom loved Diana, cried when Diana died,
Speaker 1: still has people magazines from from that time with like,
Speaker 1: you know, what was it, the People's Princess and all
Speaker 1: ab that, like, like, so definitely got a little bit
Speaker 1: of secondhand roy old family engagement from that. But I've
Speaker 1: never really been somebody who followed it carefully. Obviously, when
Speaker 1: Megan Markele came on the scene, I loved that. I
Speaker 1: was definitely like, oh, black princess. I know she's not
Speaker 1: a princess, but that was what we said that when
Speaker 1: when she came on the scene. Um, but yeah. And
Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons I'm so fascinated by,
Speaker 1: even as someone who doesn't really know about the monarchy,
Speaker 1: why I'm so fascinated about this issue is that Megan
Speaker 1: Markle on the way that people talk about her, I
Speaker 1: think gives us a very interesting lens into how women,
Speaker 1: particularly black women and women of color, how our online
Speaker 1: experience is shaped by other people. And Megan Markle is
Speaker 1: not even on social media anymore, neither is Prince Harry,
Speaker 1: and yet she is a constant focal point on social media.
Speaker 1: And I think that we really saw that with the
Speaker 1: death of the Queen. And even though the Queen was
Speaker 1: born back in nineteen twenty six and there was no
Speaker 1: such thing as social media back then when she by
Speaker 1: the time she died last week, social media played a
Speaker 1: huge overwhelming role in the way that the royal family
Speaker 1: considered her death. You know, the news itself was first
Speaker 1: announced to the public on the Royal Family Twitter before
Speaker 1: any place else, and you know, a lot of the
Speaker 1: immediate next steps and actions that the Royal Family took
Speaker 1: we're circulated around social media, so like halting government social
Speaker 1: media accounts and saying like, oh, official government accounts are
Speaker 1: only going to tweet you know, essential information, no, not
Speaker 1: essential posts, and like changing the Royal Family website to
Speaker 1: be like a like a morning you know in memorium
Speaker 1: kind of thing. And in addition to the way that
Speaker 1: social media has shaped the way the Royals, you know,
Speaker 1: present to the public, we have seen that it also
Speaker 1: presents this place for Megan Markel to be faced with
Speaker 1: pretty intense criticisms, but also things like outright lies, conspiracy theories,
Speaker 1: racist sexist smears, and stereotypes about who she is. And
Speaker 1: it really is not the first time, like we have
Speaker 1: seen this kind of stuff going on with Megan Markel
Speaker 1: before the Queen's staff obviously, and it's so interesting to
Speaker 1: me that this this event, the Queen's death, was used
Speaker 1: not just as a way to like memorialize her or
Speaker 1: like critique her rain or anything like that. It was
Speaker 1: also used as a way to further flam Megan Markle
Speaker 1: on social media, yes, yes, And as someone who, as
Speaker 1: I said, like, I'm not I don't follow this a lot.
Speaker 1: I don't get on Twitter a lot. Even I was
Speaker 1: aware that this was happening, like I saw it trending
Speaker 1: on like my brief, like what's going on on Twitter?
Speaker 1: And I had enough knowledge to be like, I bet
Speaker 1: this is coming from a really terrible racist place when
Speaker 1: I saw like Meg and Marco go home trending. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: can you explain what all of that was? What was
Speaker 1: the social media response? Yeah, I mean it's almost exactly
Speaker 1: like you said. And I want to interviewed somebody who
Speaker 1: writes about fandoms and band culture, and she described it interestingly.
Speaker 1: She described it as an anti fandom, which I had
Speaker 1: never heard before. And so it's just like what you
Speaker 1: think of a fandom, but in the opposite direction. So
Speaker 1: like people who their whole thing is I love to
Speaker 1: hate this one person. I love to create content about
Speaker 1: how much I don't like them. That's my thing. And
Speaker 1: so that kind of messaging was in full effect after
Speaker 1: the queen died. As you said, the hashtag Megan Markle
Speaker 1: go home sort of trending on Twitter, and basically what
Speaker 1: I found some interesting about that is that first people
Speaker 1: were picking up picking on her because she did not
Speaker 1: go to England with Harry, her husband, after the queen died.
Speaker 1: And I'm again I'm no expert here, but it sounds
Speaker 1: like she just was not invited and so not going
Speaker 1: was there anything bad? And then when she actually did go,
Speaker 1: everybody was like, oh, go home, go home. So it's
Speaker 1: interesting how it kind of doesn't matter what she does.
Speaker 1: If she doesn't go, that's bad. If she does go,
Speaker 1: that's also bad. And I think it really illustrates how, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like this impossible tightrope where it doesn't it's it's
Speaker 1: clearly not really about her actions and what she actually
Speaker 1: does or says. It's just about her. It's about her existence,
Speaker 1: her presence that is threatening, that is not okay with
Speaker 1: the people that hate her, and ultimately it's like an
Speaker 1: impossible situation to walk. Um. There was just like very
Speaker 1: fascinating instance where she was videoed and somebody in a
Speaker 1: crowd handed her some flowers and an aid seems to
Speaker 1: walk up to her and it's like, I'll take those
Speaker 1: for you, and she says she she mouths something to
Speaker 1: him that's like seems to be oh, my god, I
Speaker 1: don't worry about it, thank you. And you would the
Speaker 1: way that people talked about this on the internet, you
Speaker 1: would think that she punched this aid and it's like, actually,
Speaker 1: she's just like calmly standing there saying a sentence, smiling
Speaker 1: and then like clearly saying thank you. And it's like
Speaker 1: at second interaction people were dissecting it like the JFK
Speaker 1: s a Ruder film like she like people became like
Speaker 1: overnight body language experts and lip readers and it was
Speaker 1: why old m Yeah, yeah, I want to return to
Speaker 1: that idea of anti fandom for sure, because I think
Speaker 1: as someone who is like a fan of a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff, I've seen this before and it just becomes
Speaker 1: like this where people feel justified in hating someone. And
Speaker 1: here's the proof. And I am a body language expert
Speaker 1: and I can tell you why, um, but all it
Speaker 1: is is like they just want to hate that person
Speaker 1: who usually they feel is encroaching on their territory. And like,
Speaker 1: as someone who is interested in a lot of like
Speaker 1: Star Wars stuff, nerdy stuff, bandom stuff, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: have seen this a lot. Yes, Oh, I cannot wait
Speaker 1: to talk about it once we get more in depth
Speaker 1: about what might be going on here, because yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just like it becomes I think I've said to Samantha before,
Speaker 1: it's like this anti finding up thing is ringing, so
Speaker 1: truth with me, because I'm like, well, you're not a
Speaker 1: fan anymore. You're just all about the hate of this.
Speaker 1: You just are unhappy. So I don't know why you're here.
Speaker 1: It's to make everyone else feel unhappy and to like
Speaker 1: assertain your what you think is your power and dominance
Speaker 1: in the space. But you're not a fan. If you
Speaker 1: hate this much of it, just go just go along.
Speaker 1: It's gonna be okay. Oh yeah. And I mean like
Speaker 1: the levels people will go, the things they'll do to
Speaker 1: scare usually women, marginalize people off the internet is wild
Speaker 1: to me, um and then unfortunately very often successful. But
Speaker 1: like they will come up with all of these things,
Speaker 1: and you you bought this example of like a conspiracy
Speaker 1: theory where they were like this, something is wrong here. Yeah, So, like,
Speaker 1: I mean the amount of wild conspiracy theory like people,
Speaker 1: it's clearly a lot of like projection, where people already
Speaker 1: have a negative association with someone and then any little
Speaker 1: thing will be used as proof to stack their to
Speaker 1: stack that that thinking right, And so one of the
Speaker 1: big conspiracies that came out of the Queen's funeral was
Speaker 1: that Megan attended the funeral wearing a hidden recording device
Speaker 1: under her dress. And the reason why people thought this
Speaker 1: is because she was photographed and in one of the
Speaker 1: pictures there's like a wrinkle or a bump on her thigh,
Speaker 1: and people were like, how like the goal she's gonna be?
Speaker 1: What is she recording this for her podcast or for
Speaker 1: some Netflix special? So shameless? And it's like, yo, I
Speaker 1: have worn those kinds of recording devices in my clothing.
Speaker 1: They are so bulky. Also, don't you if that was
Speaker 1: her plan, don't you think she would have worn an
Speaker 1: out fit that was more conducive, Like she wouldn't have
Speaker 1: worn a dress that it's like, clings to that part
Speaker 1: of her body. She might have worn something with pockets,
Speaker 1: like you know, she might have. Don't don't you think
Speaker 1: that if that's what she was doing, she would have
Speaker 1: done it better? And isn't it more possible that like
Speaker 1: humans who wear clothing and stand while wearing that clothing
Speaker 1: sometimes experienced wrinkles, Like isn't more more of a better explanation?
Speaker 1: From what's going on. I think you're being too logical,
Speaker 1: Bridget to be sensible. This whole conversation is so odd
Speaker 1: to me because Megan Markele just being being present marrying
Speaker 1: a man has caused this huge controversy, and of course
Speaker 1: that a lot of conversations and comparisons to Princess Diana
Speaker 1: and Megan Markle. Of course, those same people who probably
Speaker 1: were degrading and or criticizing Princess Diana would now call
Speaker 1: her an angel and then saying that Megan Markle is
Speaker 1: the one that's uh, you know, disrespecting the name of
Speaker 1: Princess Diana, and Iver was like, wait, what you are
Speaker 1: the ones who are number one in criticisms. But also
Speaker 1: just like the fact that Mega Markel has nothing, honestly
Speaker 1: to gain in this entirety of this conversation, of these
Speaker 1: controversies to record any of these things, uh, to try
Speaker 1: as they say that she's trying to make money off
Speaker 1: these things, She's not. She's literally doing a podcast about
Speaker 1: her own life, bringing in guests to talk about marginalized
Speaker 1: issues that has nothing to do with the throne in general.
Speaker 1: As well as the fact Prince Harry's not that close
Speaker 1: none of his family is not close to the lineage
Speaker 1: to become king or queen or whatever whatnot. We have
Speaker 1: already seen the graphs that happened, so like my mind
Speaker 1: just this reading of like, why why take this effort
Speaker 1: to bring this conspiracy other than hey, she's uh, she
Speaker 1: is not white, so therefore we hate her. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: you you've touched on something. This is a little bit
Speaker 1: of a tangent that you touched on. Something that I
Speaker 1: think about all the time is how you know I
Speaker 1: was young when before Princess Diana died, even I know,
Speaker 1: as like a child living in the United States, even
Speaker 1: I knew the way the press talked about her even
Speaker 1: as a kid, and so the press really tore her down.
Speaker 1: And then when she died, she's an angel. We've always
Speaker 1: loved her. It was like, and I see that so often,
Speaker 1: and I do think it's like as bad as the
Speaker 1: media and the United States is. I do feel like
Speaker 1: in the UK and in England it's like work can
Speaker 1: be worse, like a little bit like um more vicious.
Speaker 1: And I think about like Amy Winehouse is the figure
Speaker 1: because I was a huge Amy Winehouse than Amy Winehouse
Speaker 1: is the figure that I think about a lot where
Speaker 1: the press in the media loved to villainize her and
Speaker 1: really make fun of her in these like cruel ways
Speaker 1: and ways that I hope that when people are struggling
Speaker 1: with substance issues now, I hope that we've gotten to
Speaker 1: a place where, like we don't cruelly mock them for it.
Speaker 1: But then when she died, the way that that that
Speaker 1: same press rushed to lionize her, rushed to act as
Speaker 1: if they had always loved her, and it's just it's
Speaker 1: hard to see, and you know, it's kind of breaks
Speaker 1: my heart. But there's this video clip of Harry talking
Speaker 1: about this and he's like, basically feels very emphatically that
Speaker 1: the press it's responsible for the death of his mother.
Speaker 1: And then when when there was a time when Megan
Speaker 1: was open about experiencing, uh, you know, feelings of self harm,
Speaker 1: and he talked about how he felt like he was
Speaker 1: watching the press do the same thing to his new wife,
Speaker 1: that they that he had to watch them due to
Speaker 1: his mom, And I something about that clip really sticks
Speaker 1: with me of like, I don't know, I don't think
Speaker 1: I'll ever be able to understand what that must feel
Speaker 1: like to have watched that as a child and be
Speaker 1: so powerless, and then watch it again and be like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not letting this happen again, and compounding that with
Speaker 1: the fact that this is an racist attack on a
Speaker 1: woman for just being in love with a man, point blank. Um.
Speaker 1: But you know, I found it interesting because for me,
Speaker 1: I actually didn't know much about this hashtag I as
Speaker 1: much as I'm on Twitter and saying things. Again, like
Speaker 1: I said, my friends have very strong feelings of the
Speaker 1: Queen and her responsibility and colonialism in itself, so I
Speaker 1: had a whole different take on this conversation. So I'm
Speaker 1: kind of surprised to know that this is happening, and
Speaker 1: I'm really wondering where did they all come from? So
Speaker 1: this is a great question. So I have to say
Speaker 1: I'm am probably in a similar digital pocket that you are,
Speaker 1: because my timeline when the Queen died was like very
Speaker 1: much black Twitter and like Irish Twitter and like to
Speaker 1: make in Twitter all coming together. I know that people
Speaker 1: have how can I put this? I came so when
Speaker 1: the Queen died, I don't think I realized that I
Speaker 1: knew people that had a lot had I was surprised
Speaker 1: by how much reverence my friends in the United States
Speaker 1: had for her. So I was like, Okay, she's definitely
Speaker 1: like a I have friends that think of her as
Speaker 1: like a like a feminist figure. I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: Like I was a little again, this is not to
Speaker 1: like I don't want to I don't want to do
Speaker 1: like I really I realized. I was like, oh, people
Speaker 1: have complex feelings about her, and it kind of almost
Speaker 1: became like a raw shark test of where people were at.
Speaker 1: And I was just like very surprised to see that
Speaker 1: it had not occurred to me that that was going
Speaker 1: to be the way that it was as I'll put
Speaker 1: it that way. But yeah, like I said, so that's
Speaker 1: pocket eyeman. So I'm out of the loop on this one.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's interesting to me. I think that
Speaker 1: Megan Markle and we should talk about it, because I
Speaker 1: do think Megan Marco evokes a reaction in a certain
Speaker 1: type of person. Just her presence, just her being around
Speaker 1: is threatening and like deeply I think it can like
Speaker 1: deeply challenge a lot of people's preconceived notions, right, So
Speaker 1: I think that, like, I also think that Megan Markle
Speaker 1: at this point carries herself in a kind of way that. Frankly,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of like white people might have
Speaker 1: a problem with not surprising. Yeah, but that's the thing,
Speaker 1: is like, so that's the only thing I have seen.
Speaker 1: And so I'm trying to figure out where all these
Speaker 1: conversations are coming from and is it actually reflective of
Speaker 1: the rest of society, the rest of the peoples and twitters. Well,
Speaker 1: so that is a very very interesting question. Uh. Christopher Boose,
Speaker 1: who is a CEO of a company called bot Sentinel,
Speaker 1: which is an organization that analyzes Twitter data to determine,
Speaker 1: you know, where conversations are coming from, who is generating them?
Speaker 1: Is it's real people with its spots um. He did
Speaker 1: an entire analysis of Megan Markel in October one and basically,
Speaker 1: you would be surprised that a lot of the hate
Speaker 1: thrown at Megan Markele is being driven by a lot
Speaker 1: fewer people on social media than you might suspect. So
Speaker 1: this I'm excited to talk about because I remember forever ago, Bridget,
Speaker 1: when you and I did that episode on Star Wars Feminism.
Speaker 1: There was a similar thing about Star Wars about the
Speaker 1: hate the actors received. Oh my god, that's right, yes,
Speaker 1: And I was shocked and I I've I always try
Speaker 1: to make the point. Believe me, I know there are terrible, racist,
Speaker 1: sexist fans. Believe me, I know that. But the data
Speaker 1: that came out was like, it's way less posting about it.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say it's way way well less, it's
Speaker 1: way less actually posting about it. And still the perception
Speaker 1: I got was there was this huge sex sex sect
Speaker 1: on Twitter that was like tearing down these actors and
Speaker 1: was causing Rotten Tomatoes to like review bomb. And the
Speaker 1: report we talked about was like, it's actually a lot
Speaker 1: of bots. And still it has this huge impact that
Speaker 1: changed Drawn Tomatoes and their policy, and it changes how
Speaker 1: people perceive like Disney made creative decisions because the cowards
Speaker 1: based on this. Like, I'm just so glad you brought
Speaker 1: that up. That's such a good point, and I think
Speaker 1: it really goes to show that like a a pretty
Speaker 1: small minority of very motivated, very vocal, coordinated, I guess,
Speaker 1: in a nice way to put it, passionate people can
Speaker 1: really change discourse, They can really change like they can
Speaker 1: really make an impact. And so I would also I
Speaker 1: would argue then that like there's a problem with our
Speaker 1: social media platforms and our digital platforms, it's a small handful,
Speaker 1: a relatively small handful of dedicated trolls and people to
Speaker 1: people like haters can really impact and change discourse. Like
Speaker 1: I would argue that that means that someing is broken
Speaker 1: something it's flawed. And I also think that you know,
Speaker 1: when you have a small handful of people dictating the
Speaker 1: conversation and making make creating the impression that everybody hates
Speaker 1: this new person on Star Wars or everybody hates Megan Markele,
Speaker 1: it's so much easier for somebody who it's just a
Speaker 1: casual viewer of this to get the idea that like, oh,
Speaker 1: well everybody hates so and so, so like I'm not
Speaker 1: going to chime in with like I like so and so,
Speaker 1: or that I'm ambivalent about so and so. If I'm
Speaker 1: going to chime in, it kind of poisons the well
Speaker 1: and it makes it so that we can't actually have
Speaker 1: honest conversations rooted in what people actually feel, because it's
Speaker 1: just like creates an ecosystem where the hate is it's
Speaker 1: what's dictating the conversation. And so, yeah, I would argue
Speaker 1: that that means that our ecosystems are not healthy and
Speaker 1: not you know, functioning properly. If hate is able to
Speaker 1: dictate the conversation, even if it's a small minority of
Speaker 1: people who feel that way. Absolutely, absolutely, because I was
Speaker 1: under the impression, I was totally under the impression like, oh,
Speaker 1: this must be a much big or group of people
Speaker 1: than I thought. Even if I was like, they're wrong
Speaker 1: and they're full of hate, I still thought it was
Speaker 1: way bigger. And the numbers you brought about Megan Markle
Speaker 1: kind of shocked me with like how much smaller they
Speaker 1: were based on what I have seen as a casual
Speaker 1: viewer of this. Absolutely, So let's dig into some of
Speaker 1: those numbers. So from this Bot Sentinel report, they found
Speaker 1: that only eighty three accounts on Twitter generate seventy percent
Speaker 1: of Megan Markle hate content on Twitter. They estimate that
Speaker 1: these three accounts have a potential combined reach of seventeen
Speaker 1: million users. So they broke it down. They found that
Speaker 1: fifty five what we call single purpose anti Megan Markle
Speaker 1: hate accounts. And so a single purpose hate account is
Speaker 1: that account that like it only exists to hate on
Speaker 1: one person, like that, like they're not like primarily like
Speaker 1: that's what they're doing. So fifty five of those accounts
Speaker 1: were these like primary hate accounts, and then another twenty
Speaker 1: eight secondary accounts that like mainly amplified them. And so
Speaker 1: those twenty eight accounts they might post about like the
Speaker 1: royals more generally, but that their real function is to
Speaker 1: boost and amplify when those that when those other primary
Speaker 1: accounts put out anti meg and Markle hate and so
Speaker 1: that that's really it, Like they are generating a lot
Speaker 1: of the hate online. It is not organic conversation and
Speaker 1: it's certainly not a reflection of how just everybody feels
Speaker 1: on social media because these these accounts have such a
Speaker 1: big reach and such a big ability to control the
Speaker 1: conversation about Megan Markel. Yeah. Yeah, and that's something that
Speaker 1: you've you've come on and you've talked about a lot
Speaker 1: on here. Is this the responsibility of social media platforms,
Speaker 1: but also that kind of manipulation towards these hateful accounts
Speaker 1: when it comes to the algorithm and like what people
Speaker 1: see and what gets like more traction, right, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 1: And so I I have a little bit of a
Speaker 1: different opinion than a lot of my colleagues in the
Speaker 1: platform accountability and disinformation space. A lot of people would
Speaker 1: say single use hate accounts should be banned from the Internet, Like,
Speaker 1: if you are someone who is running an account and
Speaker 1: the only that account only exists to hate on one
Speaker 1: specific person, it should be banned. I can understand that view,
Speaker 1: but I think that the most important thing is that
Speaker 1: platforms should not be amplifying it. They shouldn't be recommending
Speaker 1: those accounts to people when you when you search Megan
Speaker 1: Markel information, those accounts shall not be the ones that
Speaker 1: are prioritized and that that users see first. What users
Speaker 1: see first should be like thoughtful, honest information from sites
Speaker 1: that are that do not exist only to spread hated
Speaker 1: at this one person. And so it is interesting that,
Speaker 1: like on a platform like Twitter, these eight three accounts
Speaker 1: that are driving most of the conversation around the negative
Speaker 1: conversation around Megan Markel, they kind of blatantly violate Twitter's rules.
Speaker 1: Like one of there's rules is that accounts cannot coordinate
Speaker 1: to dogpile on people, to harass them, or to like
Speaker 1: spread negativity around them. Well, these accounts do just that, right,
Speaker 1: and they do so in like a pretty sophisticated coordination
Speaker 1: with each other. And yeah, I think it's one of
Speaker 1: those things where platforms really need to understand what's at
Speaker 1: stake when this is allowed, When like a small handful
Speaker 1: of accounts are able to bypass the rules that you
Speaker 1: have set for your platform in order to artificially control
Speaker 1: the discourse about one subject. That's not great. No, no,
Speaker 1: it's not. And it's kind of frightening to be honest,
Speaker 1: And you had to quote Bose talked about this, like
Speaker 1: making the clarification that like, we can't just blame thoughts.
Speaker 1: So I find this super interesting because you know, we
Speaker 1: often when it comes to online discourse, talk about like,
Speaker 1: well is it boughts that people? And I feel like
Speaker 1: the over focused like talking about both is serious and
Speaker 1: we should be doing that. But when we focus on
Speaker 1: that and don't also bring into the conversation that sometimes
Speaker 1: it is real people, I feel like the conversation can
Speaker 1: be not as useful because it ob scared the fact
Speaker 1: that like, well it isn't all bought some of it
Speaker 1: is like real people. And so in an interview with BuzzFeed,
Speaker 1: booz I said, this campaign comes from people who know
Speaker 1: how to manipulate the algorithms, manipulate Twitter, stay under the
Speaker 1: wire to avoid detection, and suspension. This level of complexity
Speaker 1: comes from people who know how to do this stuff
Speaker 1: and who are paid to do this stuff. And so yeah,
Speaker 1: I think, especially what do you think about the fact
Speaker 1: that people can profit from this? I think it really
Speaker 1: should be who these platforms to make a change. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the big conversation, is that people are making money
Speaker 1: and can make a living off of this, and why
Speaker 1: is this something that is profitable? So it's not just
Speaker 1: they're making money, but they're profiting and literally off of
Speaker 1: hate because over here I have at least four times
Speaker 1: the amount of the bots following me and I can
Speaker 1: only get three people to look at my tea. Come on, rageous.
Speaker 1: But I find that interesting that we have had this
Speaker 1: continuous talk and we have these prime examples of what
Speaker 1: is happening on Twitter specifically, Like we talked recently about
Speaker 1: one of the Canadian um women who is currently working
Speaker 1: with Bumble and making sure that there's safety for the
Speaker 1: women who are and those who are on their app,
Speaker 1: and that one of her big things where that she
Speaker 1: was bringing out the reports showing how Twitter does not
Speaker 1: help or defend or make Twitter safe for women and
Speaker 1: marginalized people. And uh, if so just recently came out
Speaker 1: with a big research data showing that women are still
Speaker 1: being heavily targeted and are not being helped at all
Speaker 1: by platforms in general, and that the fact of the
Speaker 1: matter is people are once again profiting, have become have
Speaker 1: become aware of Oh, so we can make money by
Speaker 1: essentially on women and women of color and doing so
Speaker 1: in a way that not only can we get away
Speaker 1: with it, not only can we make money, but it's
Speaker 1: making a difference, uh, in people's reaction to this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean like, and so you're exactly right, like this
Speaker 1: the research is it completely jives with what you're saying.
Speaker 1: You are exactly exactly right. And as bad as that is, right,
Speaker 1: So like platforms are like I would argue that this
Speaker 1: this kind of negative engagement and harassment and abuse of
Speaker 1: women of color on these platforms, I would argue that
Speaker 1: is built into these business models like Twitter. When when
Speaker 1: somebody tweets something that is like crapping on Megan Markele
Speaker 1: and it's getting lots of engagement, it is in Twitter's
Speaker 1: best financial interest to boost that and amplify that because
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this is clickie. People are people are
Speaker 1: paying attention to this that's a problem. And I also
Speaker 1: think that you know, we're talking about Megan Markle, who
Speaker 1: is a public figure, but she's not a political figure necessarily.
Speaker 1: We're talking about you know, Star Wars and life fandom.
Speaker 1: Think about how that I as bad as that is.
Speaker 1: Apply that to democracy. Apply that to women and women
Speaker 1: of color who are trying to run for office. Apply
Speaker 1: that to women and women of color and other marginalized
Speaker 1: people who are trying to engage in our democracy and
Speaker 1: be part of civic and public life, right, And so
Speaker 1: the implications really become clear. If it's this bad for
Speaker 1: conversations that are you know about pop culture and like celebrities,
Speaker 1: imagine how how big the stakes are when that same
Speaker 1: dynamic is applied to people who are just trying to
Speaker 1: run for office or just trying to make their voices
Speaker 1: heard and participate fully in our democracy. Right. In the
Speaker 1: one report we were talking about, they were specifically focusing
Speaker 1: on journalists and talking about this is a part of
Speaker 1: their job description. And I think about that all the time.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, because technically is a part
Speaker 1: of our job description. And I hate it. I hate
Speaker 1: it so much because I don't want to become a
Speaker 1: focal point at any point noting that we are. Thank God,
Speaker 1: because if we go under the radar as well, like
Speaker 1: I said to people like my tweets, it's fine, um,
Speaker 1: but we go under the radar enough that you know,
Speaker 1: we don't have to deal with that before someone who
Speaker 1: has who is being told if you don't get your
Speaker 1: views up, you're not gonna get paid, or you're not
Speaker 1: going to stay in this job. I couldn't imagine. So
Speaker 1: I actually literally just left a summit all about this
Speaker 1: as it pretains to journalism. And I when I was
Speaker 1: a kid, I wanted to be a journalist, right like
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with April O'Neil from teenage Mutant into Turtles.
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a journalist like that was like
Speaker 1: the career that I wanted to go into. And today
Speaker 1: the fact that young women like who are younger go
Speaker 1: into journalism like like willingly, it surprises me because I
Speaker 1: think a lot of women have women are smart enough
Speaker 1: to realize if I'm going if the cost of doing
Speaker 1: this job is dealing with with online abuse, online harassment,
Speaker 1: online violence, and my male counterparts are not dealing with
Speaker 1: it the same way that I am. So it's just
Speaker 1: like the it's just like an extra woman tax or
Speaker 1: you know, marginalization tax in the workplace, and institutions largely
Speaker 1: do not know how to support women who are going
Speaker 1: through this and dealing with this, and so it's like
Speaker 1: just their problem. There's an assumption that the person who
Speaker 1: is the focal point of harassment and abuse that they've
Speaker 1: done something to warrant it, and that completely is not
Speaker 1: how it works. Like oftentimes the thing that they're doing
Speaker 1: is like existing as a woman. Um, and so think
Speaker 1: about what we are asking women to deal with. It's
Speaker 1: just completely unfair, and we're asking them to deal with
Speaker 1: it and not even talk about the issue, right, and
Speaker 1: so it's completely it's that's a completely unfair dynamic. When
Speaker 1: I think about how many people have either just given
Speaker 1: up on this as a career, they're just like, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to get on social media. It's not worth it.
Speaker 1: It has the ability to suppress women from being involved
Speaker 1: in public and civic life. And the worst part is
Speaker 1: is like we were just now talking about it. We're
Speaker 1: so late in bringing it up right, And that's in fact,
Speaker 1: these reports are specific to Twitter, but it's been happening.
Speaker 1: It's been happening on bigger platforms and other social media's right, Oh,
Speaker 1: absolutely it is. I don't want to give the impression
Speaker 1: that it is just Twitter, because that is not the case.
Speaker 1: Um So Sentinel also analyzed YouTube accounts and they found
Speaker 1: that because of YouTube monetization, trashing Megan Markel is actually
Speaker 1: big lucrative business. They found that twenty five YouTube channels
Speaker 1: earned around three point five million from ad revenue and
Speaker 1: that three of the most successful anti Megan Markell accounts
Speaker 1: generated almost five hundred thousand dollars during their existence. And
Speaker 1: these videos are like it's not like they're filming, you know,
Speaker 1: I know, but yess, it's like they're low quality videos
Speaker 1: that basically just traffic in years theories and outright lies
Speaker 1: and like racist stereotypes and tropes, right, and so like
Speaker 1: some of the claims that they'll make is like, oh,
Speaker 1: Megan Markel, she baked her pregnancy, she used to serogate,
Speaker 1: like it's it's things that are completely baseless lies. And
Speaker 1: I think that if you are able to make half
Speaker 1: a million dollars almost trafficking in baseless lies and conjecture
Speaker 1: and racism and sexism, you shouldn't be able to If
Speaker 1: you're able to make that kind of money from that,
Speaker 1: something is wrong, like something is really broken. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean agreed, because it's like not that this always works,
Speaker 1: but there's been attempts to crack down on like medical
Speaker 1: misinformation UM, like you can't make money off of that.
Speaker 1: It's been hit or miss, but there have been attempts,
Speaker 1: and it seems like if there's just something flatly untrue,
Speaker 1: you should not be making millions of dollars from it
Speaker 1: by saying that it is true. And then just like
Speaker 1: the the spreading of that UM and how harmful that
Speaker 1: is on these platforms. And we've seen and like we said,
Speaker 1: like the trickle effect of people believing that this is
Speaker 1: the discourse. And so therefore women have it hard enough already,
Speaker 1: like in the public office, like I just don't like her,
Speaker 1: There's something about her, and to have like just this
Speaker 1: overwhelming discourse of like no, no one likes her, and
Speaker 1: so it just it just seems so toxic and that
Speaker 1: people are making money from it is very frustrating. And
Speaker 1: I definitely agree that means something is wrong here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I want to be clear, like I didn't really
Speaker 1: have strong feelings about Megan Markele. I like that she's
Speaker 1: a black princess, but or was a black princess, and yeah,
Speaker 1: I know she wasn't really princess, but whatever. I but like,
Speaker 1: if you don't like Megan Markele, that's fine, You're it's
Speaker 1: it's totally within your right to be like, I don't
Speaker 1: like her, ruthers me the wrong way. Whatever. We all
Speaker 1: have people that we don't like, but that is very
Speaker 1: different than you know, I am going to spearhead a
Speaker 1: coordinated campaign to make it seem like everybody doesn't like her,
Speaker 1: and that campaign is going to be built on racism, sexism,
Speaker 1: and lies about who she is. And I say that
Speaker 1: because when you do that, you're making us all less safe.
Speaker 1: It truly does threaten our democracy. When you're able to
Speaker 1: tell those kinds of inflammatory lies and have them take
Speaker 1: up so much space in the room, it makes all
Speaker 1: of us that much less safe, particularly women and women
Speaker 1: of color. It makes it so much harder for us
Speaker 1: to thrive in environments where we can be judged on
Speaker 1: our character, things that we actually do and actually say,
Speaker 1: not made up conspiracy theories about us putting microphones in
Speaker 1: our panties, right, like, we need to have a discourse
Speaker 1: where honest, thoughtful, accurate conversation about who we are as
Speaker 1: marginalized people dominates and crap like that does not. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember very vividly this essay I read a while
Speaker 1: back that was like, you know, if a woman stands
Speaker 1: up in the town square and is saying something is
Speaker 1: wrong here, and as thousand men threatened her with violence
Speaker 1: and are screaming over her, who's like, freedom of speech
Speaker 1: is being threatened here? Because it feels like that because,
Speaker 1: like you said, so many people leave, so many marginalized
Speaker 1: people and women leave because they're facing this what they feel? What?
Speaker 1: What is this like shouting hateful vitriol that makes you
Speaker 1: feel unsafe in the space, and it makes it impossible
Speaker 1: for us to have these healthy conversations that are necessary
Speaker 1: and needed for a democracy. Absolutely, I would also argue
Speaker 1: that like that, it's by design, it's meant to come
Speaker 1: up the works. It's meant to have people who are
Speaker 1: interested in actual discussion and dialogue to check out and
Speaker 1: be like, no, banks don't want to risk risk it
Speaker 1: by putting my thoughts out there. And it's meant to
Speaker 1: make sure that we can't find unity, that we can't
Speaker 1: come together, that we can't make progress on all the
Speaker 1: issues that are impacting us and have the conversations that
Speaker 1: we need to have that might move us forward on
Speaker 1: those issues. Right well, Virgid, is there any has there
Speaker 1: been any changes? Is there any hope? There is a
Speaker 1: little bit of hope. Right So. Earlier so I mentioned
Speaker 1: how on YouTube people are able to make big money
Speaker 1: basically just running single purpose hate accounts against Megan Markele
Speaker 1: not anymore. Earlier this year, YouTube made a big change.
Speaker 1: They do ranked anti Megan Market results from their search.
Speaker 1: In a really great BuzzFeed piece by Ellie Hall which
Speaker 1: shout out to Elliet Hall, she has done some fantastic
Speaker 1: reporting on Megan Markel and race and culture and what
Speaker 1: it all means. Uh, Ellie Hall rights. But now you'll
Speaker 1: only find videos from verified accounts and news outlets in
Speaker 1: the YouTube search results for Megan Markel and first recommendations
Speaker 1: in the sidebar, even if you explicitly searched for and
Speaker 1: started watching video is that accused Megan Market of being
Speaker 1: a narcissist or videos claiming that she wore fake ballet
Speaker 1: to make herself look pregnant. YouTube's recommendation sidebar won't initially
Speaker 1: serve you similar videos, and so, uh, I do think
Speaker 1: that that is a step in the right direction. Like
Speaker 1: I gotta give it to YouTube that that was a
Speaker 1: good call, because yeah, when you search any topic, but
Speaker 1: let's use Megan market at an example. It is not
Speaker 1: it should not be in YouTube's best interest for the
Speaker 1: first search results, but the things that they're promoting for
Speaker 1: the recommended videos that they're surfacing to you to be
Speaker 1: videos from people whose whole thing is hating on that
Speaker 1: one thing. Right, it should be honest, accurate content. I
Speaker 1: would love to throw and thoughtful in there, but I
Speaker 1: think if because it's gets accurate, that would be great.
Speaker 1: That would be a great start for just just just
Speaker 1: do this because it's gotten so off the royals and
Speaker 1: it's just like, just just be true. At least if
Speaker 1: you're going to say Nick and Markle is married to
Speaker 1: Prince Harry, just just into with that. I'll watch that
Speaker 1: over anything. This is the biggest conversation, like why is
Speaker 1: it significant when people talk about Megan Markel knew what
Speaker 1: she was coming onto. Again, it's just one of those
Speaker 1: places of like, but she just got married, but that's
Speaker 1: the end, she didn't want to be a princess because
Speaker 1: so many accusations came at her that they're like, you
Speaker 1: know what, we're leaving this royal family stuff. We're done.
Speaker 1: We're done because we're getting attacked from every circle, whether
Speaker 1: it's she's uh a gold digger, slash, I guess a
Speaker 1: royalty digger? Is that? Is that that sort of name,
Speaker 1: is that something um or versus to her want to
Speaker 1: disrupt the family, all of these things that what just
Speaker 1: happened was they got set up. They are famous. She
Speaker 1: wasn't that famous. She just she was an actress. She
Speaker 1: was good at our job. She could have kept going.
Speaker 1: She met him, got married, and that's it. She's not
Speaker 1: trying to be political, she's not trying to be royalty.
Speaker 1: She just wants to be a part of our family.
Speaker 1: Has some really good good relationship with her mother, bad
Speaker 1: relationship with bother, just being that and because of that,
Speaker 1: she's getting all this vitriol being compared to the other royalties. Uh,
Speaker 1: we we know what this is. We know what this
Speaker 1: looks like. And for her, who was not even on
Speaker 1: social media, who continues to be attacked, is just one
Speaker 1: of those parts of like she doesn't deserve this. There's
Speaker 1: nothing that she did that deserves this. There's no conversation
Speaker 1: where we think that this is earned. And she she
Speaker 1: put herself out there. She's not a politician taking a
Speaker 1: stance on anything. She's just being like, that's it, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you something that you said. I hadn't even really thought
Speaker 1: about this, But I think that people's reactions to Megan
Speaker 1: Markle really demonstrate how women of color especially are really
Speaker 1: not allowed to publicly be multifaceted, comply humans. It's like
Speaker 1: the fact that like, oh, she has a you know,
Speaker 1: complicated relationship with her father who doesn't write. Like they
Speaker 1: use these incredibly human things where it's like, yeah, welcome
Speaker 1: to being a human in relationships with other humans. Sometimes
Speaker 1: that these things happen, Like they find these incredibly human
Speaker 1: things that we all experience, and they they use it
Speaker 1: or they frame it as like a negative against her.
Speaker 1: In these ways I just think are just completely transparent.
Speaker 1: It's so obvious what's happening. And the way that they
Speaker 1: talk about her with this like I wanna say this,
Speaker 1: They're quite good at talking about her with this plausible
Speaker 1: deniability of like oh, I didn't mean I didn't mean
Speaker 1: that racially When I called her Compton Kate, even though
Speaker 1: she's not from Compton. I didn't mean anything race like
Speaker 1: race truly, but I didn't say anything racially motivated there.
Speaker 1: I was just saying she's from California and Compton it's
Speaker 1: also a city in California, you know, yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean this is again, I feel like we need a
Speaker 1: new segment bridget where you come on and we do
Speaker 1: like ramps, but I feel like this, there's so much
Speaker 1: of this. It is like questioning women's ambition and it
Speaker 1: still seems to be in this very like old system
Speaker 1: of royalty, like, oh, she's just trying to marry into
Speaker 1: the royal family. We can't trust anything she does, and
Speaker 1: she's trying to ruin this tradition by being her and
Speaker 1: like just constantly questioning and calling out what women's intentions are.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because I find myself having I mean,
Speaker 1: these systems are so ingrained that I'm not immune to it.
Speaker 1: Like I when I read articles about ambitious women, like
Speaker 1: I have to really check myself internally and be like, well,
Speaker 1: are you really just like adding this like sexist trope
Speaker 1: on to this woman that assumes that she must be
Speaker 1: you know, misleading this like simple childlike man who doesn't
Speaker 1: know any better, and and oftentimes the answer is yes,
Speaker 1: and I have to step back and be like, well,
Speaker 1: let's unpact why your assumption was that this woman who
Speaker 1: was ambitious and powerful must be you know, calling the
Speaker 1: shots and misleading this like dull lord of a man.
Speaker 1: Isn't that kind of insulting to both of them? Yeah?
Speaker 1: It just goes to show like how ingrained these these
Speaker 1: systems are and how insidious they are, and the work
Speaker 1: that each individual needs to do to unpack them. And
Speaker 1: myself very much included, right, Yeah, me, all of us.
Speaker 1: I think we all have these things that we just
Speaker 1: didn't realize that we did internalize so much, and something
Speaker 1: like this, you know, the Royal family, Mega Markle can
Speaker 1: seem kind of frivolous. It's not that it can kind
Speaker 1: of feel that way because celebrity culture kind of insights
Speaker 1: that a lot. But as we've been alluding to a
Speaker 1: lot throughout this, it does matter, right, Oh, it matters hugely.
Speaker 1: Like I would say that the reactions to Megan Merkel
Speaker 1: really shows how easy it is for a relatively small
Speaker 1: amount of people to create an effective and negative echo
Speaker 1: chamber that can be fueled by things like racism and sexism.
Speaker 1: You know, again, if eighty three accounts are able to
Speaker 1: generate the majority of negative chatter about one person and
Speaker 1: create the impression inorganically that that is the overall sentiment
Speaker 1: of that person, it kind of means that our digital
Speaker 1: landscape and our platforms might not be so healthy. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: and and I don't think we went over this, but
Speaker 1: there were those the people who are doing this, who
Speaker 1: are running these accounts know what they're doing. They know
Speaker 1: how to manipulate the system. We talked about that, but
Speaker 1: they have like very specific ways. So if there's if
Speaker 1: we are on working in these systems where the eight three,
Speaker 1: these eight three people can just manipulate these rules and
Speaker 1: kind of skate being banned and these what some people
Speaker 1: who or maybe casual Twitter users or what have users
Speaker 1: assume like, oh Twitter has these rules, they'll kick people off.
Speaker 1: But that's not working either. No, it's not working right,
Speaker 1: And so I would say the fact that platforms still
Speaker 1: allow this largely is a big problem, right, And the
Speaker 1: fact that it's profitable that you can make money from it,
Speaker 1: and I think it's incentivized, and so again, like we
Speaker 1: it's these eighty three people are bad actors, but also
Speaker 1: more institutionally, platforms need to do something to make sure
Speaker 1: that relatively small handful of people can't hijack an entire
Speaker 1: conversation about a subject. And again, I know that a
Speaker 1: lot of people that I respect would say that the
Speaker 1: answer is to ban single issue hate accounts or single
Speaker 1: person hate accounts, that we should be banning those, and
Speaker 1: I again, I I think that there's always going to
Speaker 1: be people who they're staying is hating on other public figures,
Speaker 1: and so I don't necessarily think that like those people
Speaker 1: should not be able to do that, Like I don't
Speaker 1: love it, and like I wouldn't recommend it, and I
Speaker 1: would never be friends with somebody who would do that,
Speaker 1: and I would never do that. But there's I feel
Speaker 1: that there's always going to be people who are hell
Speaker 1: bent on hating on others, and I think that's just
Speaker 1: like a reality of the world that we live in.
Speaker 1: But even so, platforms don't have to make money off
Speaker 1: of it, profit off of it, amplify it, normalize it,
Speaker 1: you know, like they can take some accountability. And so
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think that the real the real
Speaker 1: For me at least, the real problem here is what
Speaker 1: happens when platforms just allow this and it becomes the norm.
Speaker 1: Because I really have seen the way that this same
Speaker 1: dynamic can be applied to political leaders, women running for office,
Speaker 1: women journalists, and I think the implications when you apply
Speaker 1: it that way really become clear. It's it's it's they're
Speaker 1: quite dire, and yeah, people can make money off of it.
Speaker 1: Like the fact that we're looking at Forbes magazine with
Speaker 1: TikTok stars talking about how the number one stars making
Speaker 1: almost twenty million dollars per you. It's kind of like
Speaker 1: what wait, what? And the realization is literally, TikTok the
Speaker 1: platform helped elevate these individuals and have made them a
Speaker 1: household market and have made them profitable and have created
Speaker 1: a new genre of celebrities. Is that a thing, right?
Speaker 1: I mean, the fact is they have a lot of power,
Speaker 1: whether we want to admit it or not. And it
Speaker 1: it plays into obviously, as you were talking about Star Wars,
Speaker 1: it plays into movies, is played into what's being created,
Speaker 1: it's plays into what's being pulled, is played into who
Speaker 1: ends up being on uh, who ends up becoming leaders.
Speaker 1: It absolutely affects everything, and when it's specifically targeted to
Speaker 1: silence marginalized individuals, like what has happened with Megan Markel
Speaker 1: that she got off of social media. We've seen many
Speaker 1: teen celebrities, young girls get off social media because it's
Speaker 1: the constant were rating, constant trolling that it becomes a thing.
Speaker 1: We've seen individuals being terrorized for making a comment about
Speaker 1: someone's favorite musicians. It's the whole level of like what
Speaker 1: is happening and the fact that this has allowed to
Speaker 1: happen and there's no one who seemingly controls it, even
Speaker 1: though it's under a platform that is a private company exactly.
Speaker 1: I mean, I couldn't have put it better myself. And
Speaker 1: when I think about the ways that you know, the
Speaker 1: younger generation, the generation coming up behind me, they're largely
Speaker 1: like you know, the online generation, and so they're learning
Speaker 1: about politics and the world around them and civic engagement
Speaker 1: from the internet. The ways that they exert that power
Speaker 1: in those voices is are are largely online. If our
Speaker 1: online systems are so toxic that people don't even want
Speaker 1: to be part of them, that is an entire generation
Speaker 1: of marginalized young people who early on have just checked
Speaker 1: out and that is a huge problem. Yeah. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: on top of that, I think of kind of the
Speaker 1: toxic messaging we get from a very young age um
Speaker 1: as women, and so you internalize some of this stuff.
Speaker 1: And then if you were exposed to these so ual
Speaker 1: platforms that are just reinforcing all the toxic messaging, that's
Speaker 1: not good. That's that's very, very bad. Yeah. I guess
Speaker 1: like I just strongly feel that we all deserve better.
Speaker 1: Like we we we can have better. The reason why
Speaker 1: things are not better, I would argue, or because it's
Speaker 1: lining the pockets of mostly white, straight cys men who
Speaker 1: build these systems and profit from them, and them we
Speaker 1: deserve better. I don't care if they all go bankrupt
Speaker 1: if it means that we can have something better for
Speaker 1: the rest of us. Yes, see, the rich like it.
Speaker 1: I love it. Um Well, thank you so much as always, Bridget,
Speaker 1: it was a delight to have you. Every time we
Speaker 1: have these, I'm like, well, we gotta talk about this,
Speaker 1: we gotta talk about this, we gotta have about this.
Speaker 1: So are there any resources you want to shout out
Speaker 1: or where can the listeners find you? Both well, I
Speaker 1: definitely recommend checking out bought sentinels work. They put out
Speaker 1: research briefings that are so fascinating and Christopher Bose has
Speaker 1: done such a the job of really helping me understand
Speaker 1: what's happening on the internet, so definitely check them out. Um.
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Bridget Murray or
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Bridget Marian d C and check out
Speaker 1: my podcast There are no girls on the Internet. Yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: absolutely do that. Listeners, if you have not already, thank
Speaker 1: you again a Bridget for being here. Cannot wait until
Speaker 1: the next time, me too, thanks for having me Yes
Speaker 1: absolutely always a wonderful, wonderful pleasure and the listeners. If
Speaker 1: you would like to contact us, you can or emails
Speaker 1: stuff me your mom stuff at I hurt meat dot com.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at Mom's of podcast
Speaker 1: or Instagram and stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as
Speaker 1: always too, are super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, and
Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening someone Never told you the
Speaker 1: protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcast for my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app
Speaker 1: Apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows