1 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production 2 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:12,959 Speaker 1: of My Heart Radio and Unbust Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: and this is there Are No Girls on the Internet. 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,960 Speaker 1: When the Queen died earlier this month, the Internet exploded, 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: not just with tributes to her legacy or opinions about 6 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: the monarchy, but also in conspiracy theories and racist, sexist 7 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: attacks on Megan Markle. Now, this is something I spend 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: a lot of time thinking about the ways that our 9 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: internet landscape make it really easy to amplify attacks on 10 00:00:39,440 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: women and women of color. But what is really interesting 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: to me is what happens when you dig into the 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,640 Speaker 1: actual numbers of who exactly is spreading all this hate. 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 1: According to research from There Are No Girls on the 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: Internet guest Christopher Bouse, a Bot Sentinel, it actually takes 15 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: a lot less people than you might think to gamify 16 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: our social media platform and dominate online discourse about someone 17 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:06,920 Speaker 1: like Megan Markle. And I joined my friends Samantha and 18 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 1: Annie at the podcast stuff Mom Never told you to 19 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: talk all about it. This is kind of a convoluted segue, 20 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 1: but I wanted to bring it up because it does 21 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: bring me joy to remember me and my old Neo's 22 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: angel email, um, receiving these things. But also I do 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 1: think it kind of tangentially relates to what we're talking 24 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,640 Speaker 1: about today, and that there seems to be like these 25 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: messages coming from we're not sure where. Um. So I'm 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: very eager to learn about this podcast, a podcast that 27 00:01:45,880 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: was a masterful transition. Thank you, thank you. But yes, 28 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: I'm very eager to learn more about this. Can you 29 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: tell us what we're going to be discussing today? Yes, so, 30 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: as you just said, Annie, it is sort of related 31 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: about this idea of who is able to really control 32 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: conversations on the internet about one specific subject, and so 33 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: today that topic is going to be Megan Markele Um 34 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 1: as you all, I'm sure by now i'll probably know 35 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: the queen died last week, to do you. I'm curious 36 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: do you two have any like strong connection to the 37 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: royal family, the monarchy, Like, is this something that you 38 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: followed or you like could not care less have not 39 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,639 Speaker 1: followed it. I don't know anything about it. I personally 40 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: could not care less. I it's it's been it's impossible 41 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: to escape, I will say right now, UM, but I 42 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: don't have any real feeling about it. I have some 43 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: friends who do. I did go through a period where 44 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: I was really into like entertainment from the UK and specifically, 45 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: like I was in love with the idea of moving 46 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: to London. But I've never been into the royal family. 47 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: That's never made sense to me personally. But I have 48 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: friends who are, so I guess I get it through there. 49 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 1: So I'm old enough to remember, uh, like vividly remember 50 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: instead of just being like kind of like, yeah, I 51 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 1: was a kid. I remember this, the death of Diana, 52 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: Princess Diana, and also uh, the love for William, Prince William, 53 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: who is I think a couple of years younger than me. 54 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: So of course like that era of trying to figure 55 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: out watching these young princes grow up and following their stories. 56 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: So not necessarily that I was caught up in the 57 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: royal lifestyle or family, but I do remember that offset 58 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: of seeing, uh, the huge controversies amongst the family at 59 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: that point in time. Of course, as recently as everything 60 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: has happened in the past ten years with Megan Markele, 61 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: even Prince William getting married and all the different things, 62 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: I have an understanding of what's going on, kind of 63 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: like you as well. As the fact that I have 64 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,839 Speaker 1: understood my group of people that I follow have very 65 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,880 Speaker 1: strong opinions of colonialism, and I'm like, yeah, okay, distracts. 66 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: So that's kind of where I stand in this mix totally. 67 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: So I'm somewhere in the middle. I have to say 68 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: right up front, I am not a careful follower of 69 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: the royal family. I kind of bounce between like ambivalent 70 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: to like, oh, I know about this, So I know 71 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: that there are people who are obsessively following royal family 72 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:29,239 Speaker 1: and monarchy culture. And if I say anything that's incorrect, 73 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: that's because I am not a careful follower of the 74 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: royal family, but kind of like you, like, I have 75 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: a lot of friends who are really into it. Um 76 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: older I do have a theory that older moms, specifically 77 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,040 Speaker 1: like older black moms, have a real affinity for Diana. 78 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 1: So growing up, my mom loved Diana, cried when Diana died, 79 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: still has people magazines from from that time with like, 80 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 1: you know, what was it, the People's Princess and all 81 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: ab that, like, like, so definitely got a little bit 82 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: of secondhand roy old family engagement from that. But I've 83 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: never really been somebody who followed it carefully. Obviously, when 84 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 1: Megan Markele came on the scene, I loved that. I 85 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: was definitely like, oh, black princess. I know she's not 86 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: a princess, but that was what we said that when 87 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: when she came on the scene. Um, but yeah. And 88 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons I'm so fascinated by, 89 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: even as someone who doesn't really know about the monarchy, 90 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 1: why I'm so fascinated about this issue is that Megan 91 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: Markle on the way that people talk about her, I 92 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: think gives us a very interesting lens into how women, 93 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: particularly black women and women of color, how our online 94 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: experience is shaped by other people. And Megan Markle is 95 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: not even on social media anymore, neither is Prince Harry, 96 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: and yet she is a constant focal point on social media. 97 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: And I think that we really saw that with the 98 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: death of the Queen. And even though the Queen was 99 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: born back in nineteen twenty six and there was no 100 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: such thing as social media back then when she by 101 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: the time she died last week, social media played a 102 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: huge overwhelming role in the way that the royal family 103 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: considered her death. You know, the news itself was first 104 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: announced to the public on the Royal Family Twitter before 105 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: any place else, and you know, a lot of the 106 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: immediate next steps and actions that the Royal Family took 107 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: we're circulated around social media, so like halting government social 108 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: media accounts and saying like, oh, official government accounts are 109 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: only going to tweet you know, essential information, no, not 110 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: essential posts, and like changing the Royal Family website to 111 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: be like a like a morning you know in memorium 112 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing. And in addition to the way that 113 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: social media has shaped the way the Royals, you know, 114 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: present to the public, we have seen that it also 115 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: presents this place for Megan Markel to be faced with 116 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: pretty intense criticisms, but also things like outright lies, conspiracy theories, 117 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: racist sexist smears, and stereotypes about who she is. And 118 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 1: it really is not the first time, like we have 119 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: seen this kind of stuff going on with Megan Markel 120 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 1: before the Queen's staff obviously, and it's so interesting to 121 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: me that this this event, the Queen's death, was used 122 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: not just as a way to like memorialize her or 123 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: like critique her rain or anything like that. It was 124 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: also used as a way to further flam Megan Markle 125 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: on social media, yes, yes, And as someone who, as 126 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: I said, like, I'm not I don't follow this a lot. 127 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: I don't get on Twitter a lot. Even I was 128 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: aware that this was happening, like I saw it trending 129 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 1: on like my brief, like what's going on on Twitter? 130 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: And I had enough knowledge to be like, I bet 131 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: this is coming from a really terrible racist place when 132 00:07:42,080 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: I saw like Meg and Marco go home trending. So, yeah, 133 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: can you explain what all of that was? What was 134 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: the social media response? Yeah, I mean it's almost exactly 135 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: like you said. And I want to interviewed somebody who 136 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: writes about fandoms and band culture, and she described it interestingly. 137 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 1: She described it as an anti fandom, which I had 138 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,480 Speaker 1: never heard before. And so it's just like what you 139 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: think of a fandom, but in the opposite direction. So 140 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: like people who their whole thing is I love to 141 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: hate this one person. I love to create content about 142 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: how much I don't like them. That's my thing. And 143 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: so that kind of messaging was in full effect after 144 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: the queen died. As you said, the hashtag Megan Markle 145 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 1: go home sort of trending on Twitter, and basically what 146 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: I found some interesting about that is that first people 147 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: were picking up picking on her because she did not 148 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 1: go to England with Harry, her husband, after the queen died. 149 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: And I'm again I'm no expert here, but it sounds 150 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: like she just was not invited and so not going 151 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: was there anything bad? And then when she actually did go, 152 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: everybody was like, oh, go home, go home. So it's 153 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,680 Speaker 1: interesting how it kind of doesn't matter what she does. 154 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 1: If she doesn't go, that's bad. If she does go, 155 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: that's also bad. And I think it really illustrates how, yeah, 156 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: it's like this impossible tightrope where it doesn't it's it's 157 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: clearly not really about her actions and what she actually 158 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: does or says. It's just about her. It's about her existence, 159 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: her presence that is threatening, that is not okay with 160 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,840 Speaker 1: the people that hate her, and ultimately it's like an 161 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 1: impossible situation to walk. Um. There was just like very 162 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: fascinating instance where she was videoed and somebody in a 163 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 1: crowd handed her some flowers and an aid seems to 164 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,319 Speaker 1: walk up to her and it's like, I'll take those 165 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: for you, and she says she she mouths something to 166 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: him that's like seems to be oh, my god, I 167 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: don't worry about it, thank you. And you would the 168 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:38,719 Speaker 1: way that people talked about this on the internet, you 169 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: would think that she punched this aid and it's like, actually, 170 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: she's just like calmly standing there saying a sentence, smiling 171 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: and then like clearly saying thank you. And it's like 172 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: at second interaction people were dissecting it like the JFK 173 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: s a Ruder film like she like people became like 174 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: overnight body language experts and lip readers and it was 175 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:07,599 Speaker 1: why old m Yeah, yeah, I want to return to 176 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 1: that idea of anti fandom for sure, because I think 177 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: as someone who is like a fan of a lot 178 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: of stuff, I've seen this before and it just becomes 179 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 1: like this where people feel justified in hating someone. And 180 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: here's the proof. And I am a body language expert 181 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,319 Speaker 1: and I can tell you why, um, but all it 182 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 1: is is like they just want to hate that person 183 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: who usually they feel is encroaching on their territory. And like, 184 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: as someone who is interested in a lot of like 185 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: Star Wars stuff, nerdy stuff, bandom stuff, I'm sure you 186 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: have seen this a lot. Yes, Oh, I cannot wait 187 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: to talk about it once we get more in depth 188 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: about what might be going on here, because yeah, it's 189 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: just like it becomes I think I've said to Samantha before, 190 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,599 Speaker 1: it's like this anti finding up thing is ringing, so 191 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: truth with me, because I'm like, well, you're not a 192 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: fan anymore. You're just all about the hate of this. 193 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 1: You just are unhappy. So I don't know why you're here. 194 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: It's to make everyone else feel unhappy and to like 195 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: assertain your what you think is your power and dominance 196 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:23,599 Speaker 1: in the space. But you're not a fan. If you 197 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: hate this much of it, just go just go along. 198 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: It's gonna be okay. Oh yeah. And I mean like 199 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: the levels people will go, the things they'll do to 200 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: scare usually women, marginalize people off the internet is wild 201 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,719 Speaker 1: to me, um and then unfortunately very often successful. But 202 00:11:54,160 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: like they will come up with all of these things, 203 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,479 Speaker 1: and you you bought this example of like a conspiracy 204 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: theory where they were like this, something is wrong here. Yeah, So, like, 205 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: I mean the amount of wild conspiracy theory like people, 206 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,439 Speaker 1: it's clearly a lot of like projection, where people already 207 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: have a negative association with someone and then any little 208 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 1: thing will be used as proof to stack their to 209 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: stack that that thinking right, And so one of the 210 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: big conspiracies that came out of the Queen's funeral was 211 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: that Megan attended the funeral wearing a hidden recording device 212 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 1: under her dress. And the reason why people thought this 213 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,599 Speaker 1: is because she was photographed and in one of the 214 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 1: pictures there's like a wrinkle or a bump on her thigh, 215 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,319 Speaker 1: and people were like, how like the goal she's gonna be? 216 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,559 Speaker 1: What is she recording this for her podcast or for 217 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: some Netflix special? So shameless? And it's like, yo, I 218 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,880 Speaker 1: have worn those kinds of recording devices in my clothing. 219 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,599 Speaker 1: They are so bulky. Also, don't you if that was 220 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: her plan, don't you think she would have worn an 221 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: out fit that was more conducive, Like she wouldn't have 222 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: worn a dress that it's like, clings to that part 223 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: of her body. She might have worn something with pockets, 224 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,439 Speaker 1: like you know, she might have. Don't don't you think 225 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: that if that's what she was doing, she would have 226 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: done it better? And isn't it more possible that like 227 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: humans who wear clothing and stand while wearing that clothing 228 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: sometimes experienced wrinkles, Like isn't more more of a better explanation? 229 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: From what's going on. I think you're being too logical, 230 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: Bridget to be sensible. This whole conversation is so odd 231 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: to me because Megan Markele just being being present marrying 232 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: a man has caused this huge controversy, and of course 233 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: that a lot of conversations and comparisons to Princess Diana 234 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: and Megan Markle. Of course, those same people who probably 235 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 1: were degrading and or criticizing Princess Diana would now call 236 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:54,599 Speaker 1: her an angel and then saying that Megan Markle is 237 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: the one that's uh, you know, disrespecting the name of 238 00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,120 Speaker 1: Princess Diana, and Iver was like, wait, what you are 239 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: the ones who are number one in criticisms. But also 240 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: just like the fact that Mega Markel has nothing, honestly 241 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: to gain in this entirety of this conversation, of these 242 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: controversies to record any of these things, uh, to try 243 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: as they say that she's trying to make money off 244 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: these things, She's not. She's literally doing a podcast about 245 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: her own life, bringing in guests to talk about marginalized 246 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: issues that has nothing to do with the throne in general. 247 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: As well as the fact Prince Harry's not that close 248 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: none of his family is not close to the lineage 249 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 1: to become king or queen or whatever whatnot. We have 250 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: already seen the graphs that happened, so like my mind 251 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: just this reading of like, why why take this effort 252 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: to bring this conspiracy other than hey, she's uh, she 253 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: is not white, so therefore we hate her. Yeah, and 254 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: you you've touched on something. This is a little bit 255 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: of a tangent that you touched on. Something that I 256 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: think about all the time is how you know I 257 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: was young when before Princess Diana died, even I know, 258 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: as like a child living in the United States, even 259 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: I knew the way the press talked about her even 260 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: as a kid, and so the press really tore her down. 261 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: And then when she died, she's an angel. We've always 262 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: loved her. It was like, and I see that so often, 263 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: and I do think it's like as bad as the 264 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: media and the United States is. I do feel like 265 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: in the UK and in England it's like work can 266 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: be worse, like a little bit like um more vicious. 267 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: And I think about like Amy Winehouse is the figure 268 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: because I was a huge Amy Winehouse than Amy Winehouse 269 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: is the figure that I think about a lot where 270 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: the press in the media loved to villainize her and 271 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: really make fun of her in these like cruel ways 272 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: and ways that I hope that when people are struggling 273 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,200 Speaker 1: with substance issues now, I hope that we've gotten to 274 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: a place where, like we don't cruelly mock them for it. 275 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 1: But then when she died, the way that that that 276 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: same press rushed to lionize her, rushed to act as 277 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: if they had always loved her, and it's just it's 278 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: hard to see, and you know, it's kind of breaks 279 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: my heart. But there's this video clip of Harry talking 280 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: about this and he's like, basically feels very emphatically that 281 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: the press it's responsible for the death of his mother. 282 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: And then when when there was a time when Megan 283 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: was open about experiencing, uh, you know, feelings of self harm, 284 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: and he talked about how he felt like he was 285 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: watching the press do the same thing to his new wife, 286 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 1: that they that he had to watch them due to 287 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: his mom, And I something about that clip really sticks 288 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: with me of like, I don't know, I don't think 289 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: I'll ever be able to understand what that must feel 290 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: like to have watched that as a child and be 291 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: so powerless, and then watch it again and be like, no, 292 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 1: I'm not letting this happen again, and compounding that with 293 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: the fact that this is an racist attack on a 294 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: woman for just being in love with a man, point blank. Um. 295 00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: But you know, I found it interesting because for me, 296 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: I actually didn't know much about this hashtag I as 297 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 1: much as I'm on Twitter and saying things. Again, like 298 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: I said, my friends have very strong feelings of the 299 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: Queen and her responsibility and colonialism in itself, so I 300 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 1: had a whole different take on this conversation. So I'm 301 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: kind of surprised to know that this is happening, and 302 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: I'm really wondering where did they all come from? So 303 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: this is a great question. So I have to say 304 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,880 Speaker 1: I'm am probably in a similar digital pocket that you are, 305 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: because my timeline when the Queen died was like very 306 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: much black Twitter and like Irish Twitter and like to 307 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: make in Twitter all coming together. I know that people 308 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,959 Speaker 1: have how can I put this? I came so when 309 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: the Queen died, I don't think I realized that I 310 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 1: knew people that had a lot had I was surprised 311 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 1: by how much reverence my friends in the United States 312 00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: had for her. So I was like, Okay, she's definitely 313 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 1: like a I have friends that think of her as 314 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 1: like a like a feminist figure. I was like, okay, 315 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: Like I was a little again, this is not to 316 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: like I don't want to I don't want to do 317 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: like I really I realized. I was like, oh, people 318 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: have complex feelings about her, and it kind of almost 319 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 1: became like a raw shark test of where people were at. 320 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: And I was just like very surprised to see that 321 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 1: it had not occurred to me that that was going 322 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 1: to be the way that it was as I'll put 323 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: it that way. But yeah, like I said, so that's 324 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: pocket eyeman. So I'm out of the loop on this one. 325 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's interesting to me. I think that 326 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 1: Megan Markle and we should talk about it, because I 327 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: do think Megan Marco evokes a reaction in a certain 328 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: type of person. Just her presence, just her being around 329 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: is threatening and like deeply I think it can like 330 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 1: deeply challenge a lot of people's preconceived notions, right, So 331 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: I think that, like, I also think that Megan Markle 332 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: at this point carries herself in a kind of way that. Frankly, 333 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: I think a lot of like white people might have 334 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,919 Speaker 1: a problem with not surprising. Yeah, but that's the thing, 335 00:19:05,119 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: is like, so that's the only thing I have seen. 336 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: And so I'm trying to figure out where all these 337 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: conversations are coming from and is it actually reflective of 338 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: the rest of society, the rest of the peoples and twitters. Well, 339 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,880 Speaker 1: so that is a very very interesting question. Uh. Christopher Boose, 340 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: who is a CEO of a company called bot Sentinel, 341 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: which is an organization that analyzes Twitter data to determine, 342 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,919 Speaker 1: you know, where conversations are coming from, who is generating them? 343 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,640 Speaker 1: Is it's real people with its spots um. He did 344 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: an entire analysis of Megan Markel in October one and basically, 345 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 1: you would be surprised that a lot of the hate 346 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: thrown at Megan Markele is being driven by a lot 347 00:19:43,440 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: fewer people on social media than you might suspect. So 348 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: this I'm excited to talk about because I remember forever ago, Bridget, 349 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: when you and I did that episode on Star Wars Feminism. 350 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: There was a similar thing about Star Wars about the 351 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: hate the actors received. Oh my god, that's right, yes, 352 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,400 Speaker 1: And I was shocked and I I've I always try 353 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: to make the point. Believe me, I know there are terrible, racist, 354 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: sexist fans. Believe me, I know that. But the data 355 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: that came out was like, it's way less posting about it. 356 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say it's way way well less, it's 357 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: way less actually posting about it. And still the perception 358 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: I got was there was this huge sex sex sect 359 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: on Twitter that was like tearing down these actors and 360 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: was causing Rotten Tomatoes to like review bomb. And the 361 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: report we talked about was like, it's actually a lot 362 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: of bots. And still it has this huge impact that 363 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: changed Drawn Tomatoes and their policy, and it changes how 364 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: people perceive like Disney made creative decisions because the cowards 365 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: based on this. Like, I'm just so glad you brought 366 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: that up. That's such a good point, and I think 367 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: it really goes to show that like a a pretty 368 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: small minority of very motivated, very vocal, coordinated, I guess, 369 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: in a nice way to put it, passionate people can 370 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: really change discourse, They can really change like they can 371 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: really make an impact. And so I would also I 372 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 1: would argue then that like there's a problem with our 373 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: social media platforms and our digital platforms, it's a small handful, 374 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: a relatively small handful of dedicated trolls and people to 375 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: people like haters can really impact and change discourse. Like 376 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 1: I would argue that that means that someing is broken 377 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: something it's flawed. And I also think that you know, 378 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: when you have a small handful of people dictating the 379 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: conversation and making make creating the impression that everybody hates 380 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: this new person on Star Wars or everybody hates Megan Markele, 381 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: it's so much easier for somebody who it's just a 382 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:21,399 Speaker 1: casual viewer of this to get the idea that like, oh, 383 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: well everybody hates so and so, so like I'm not 384 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: going to chime in with like I like so and so, 385 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,719 Speaker 1: or that I'm ambivalent about so and so. If I'm 386 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:31,360 Speaker 1: going to chime in, it kind of poisons the well 387 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: and it makes it so that we can't actually have 388 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: honest conversations rooted in what people actually feel, because it's 389 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: just like creates an ecosystem where the hate is it's 390 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: what's dictating the conversation. And so, yeah, I would argue 391 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: that that means that our ecosystems are not healthy and 392 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: not you know, functioning properly. If hate is able to 393 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: dictate the conversation, even if it's a small minority of 394 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: people who feel that way. Absolutely, absolutely, because I was 395 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 1: under the impression, I was totally under the impression like, oh, 396 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:01,640 Speaker 1: this must be a much big or group of people 397 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: than I thought. Even if I was like, they're wrong 398 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: and they're full of hate, I still thought it was 399 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: way bigger. And the numbers you brought about Megan Markle 400 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: kind of shocked me with like how much smaller they 401 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 1: were based on what I have seen as a casual 402 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 1: viewer of this. Absolutely, So let's dig into some of 403 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 1: those numbers. So from this Bot Sentinel report, they found 404 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: that only eighty three accounts on Twitter generate seventy percent 405 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: of Megan Markle hate content on Twitter. They estimate that 406 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,719 Speaker 1: these three accounts have a potential combined reach of seventeen 407 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: million users. So they broke it down. They found that 408 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:45,480 Speaker 1: fifty five what we call single purpose anti Megan Markle 409 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: hate accounts. And so a single purpose hate account is 410 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: that account that like it only exists to hate on 411 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: one person, like that, like they're not like primarily like 412 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: that's what they're doing. So fifty five of those accounts 413 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,159 Speaker 1: were these like primary hate accounts, and then another twenty 414 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: eight secondary accounts that like mainly amplified them. And so 415 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: those twenty eight accounts they might post about like the 416 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: royals more generally, but that their real function is to 417 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: boost and amplify when those that when those other primary 418 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,440 Speaker 1: accounts put out anti meg and Markle hate and so 419 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: that that's really it, Like they are generating a lot 420 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 1: of the hate online. It is not organic conversation and 421 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: it's certainly not a reflection of how just everybody feels 422 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: on social media because these these accounts have such a 423 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,159 Speaker 1: big reach and such a big ability to control the 424 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: conversation about Megan Markel. Yeah. Yeah, and that's something that 425 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: you've you've come on and you've talked about a lot 426 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: on here. Is this the responsibility of social media platforms, 427 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: but also that kind of manipulation towards these hateful accounts 428 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: when it comes to the algorithm and like what people 429 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: see and what gets like more traction, right, yeah, exactly, 430 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 1: And so I I have a little bit of a 431 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: different opinion than a lot of my colleagues in the 432 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 1: platform accountability and disinformation space. A lot of people would 433 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,359 Speaker 1: say single use hate accounts should be banned from the Internet, Like, 434 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: if you are someone who is running an account and 435 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: the only that account only exists to hate on one 436 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: specific person, it should be banned. I can understand that view, 437 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: but I think that the most important thing is that 438 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: platforms should not be amplifying it. They shouldn't be recommending 439 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: those accounts to people when you when you search Megan 440 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: Markel information, those accounts shall not be the ones that 441 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: are prioritized and that that users see first. What users 442 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: see first should be like thoughtful, honest information from sites 443 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 1: that are that do not exist only to spread hated 444 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: at this one person. And so it is interesting that, 445 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: like on a platform like Twitter, these eight three accounts 446 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,399 Speaker 1: that are driving most of the conversation around the negative 447 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:59,440 Speaker 1: conversation around Megan Markel, they kind of blatantly violate Twitter's rules. 448 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 1: Like one of there's rules is that accounts cannot coordinate 449 00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: to dogpile on people, to harass them, or to like 450 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: spread negativity around them. Well, these accounts do just that, right, 451 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: and they do so in like a pretty sophisticated coordination 452 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: with each other. And yeah, I think it's one of 453 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 1: those things where platforms really need to understand what's at 454 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,240 Speaker 1: stake when this is allowed, When like a small handful 455 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 1: of accounts are able to bypass the rules that you 456 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: have set for your platform in order to artificially control 457 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: the discourse about one subject. That's not great. No, no, 458 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: it's not. And it's kind of frightening to be honest, 459 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: And you had to quote Bose talked about this, like 460 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:50,639 Speaker 1: making the clarification that like, we can't just blame thoughts. 461 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,800 Speaker 1: So I find this super interesting because you know, we 462 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: often when it comes to online discourse, talk about like, 463 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: well is it boughts that people? And I feel like 464 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,760 Speaker 1: the over focused like talking about both is serious and 465 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: we should be doing that. But when we focus on 466 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: that and don't also bring into the conversation that sometimes 467 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,239 Speaker 1: it is real people, I feel like the conversation can 468 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: be not as useful because it ob scared the fact 469 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: that like, well it isn't all bought some of it 470 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: is like real people. And so in an interview with BuzzFeed, 471 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 1: booz I said, this campaign comes from people who know 472 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: how to manipulate the algorithms, manipulate Twitter, stay under the 473 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: wire to avoid detection, and suspension. This level of complexity 474 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: comes from people who know how to do this stuff 475 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,680 Speaker 1: and who are paid to do this stuff. And so yeah, 476 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 1: I think, especially what do you think about the fact 477 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: that people can profit from this? I think it really 478 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: should be who these platforms to make a change. I mean, 479 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: that's the big conversation, is that people are making money 480 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: and can make a living off of this, and why 481 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: is this something that is profitable? So it's not just 482 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: they're making money, but they're profiting and literally off of 483 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 1: hate because over here I have at least four times 484 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: the amount of the bots following me and I can 485 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 1: only get three people to look at my tea. Come on, rageous. 486 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: But I find that interesting that we have had this 487 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: continuous talk and we have these prime examples of what 488 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: is happening on Twitter specifically, Like we talked recently about 489 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: one of the Canadian um women who is currently working 490 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: with Bumble and making sure that there's safety for the 491 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:36,240 Speaker 1: women who are and those who are on their app, 492 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: and that one of her big things where that she 493 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,440 Speaker 1: was bringing out the reports showing how Twitter does not 494 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: help or defend or make Twitter safe for women and 495 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: marginalized people. And uh, if so just recently came out 496 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: with a big research data showing that women are still 497 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: being heavily targeted and are not being helped at all 498 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 1: by platforms in general, and that the fact of the 499 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: matter is people are once again profiting, have become have 500 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: become aware of Oh, so we can make money by 501 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 1: essentially on women and women of color and doing so 502 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: in a way that not only can we get away 503 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: with it, not only can we make money, but it's 504 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: making a difference, uh, in people's reaction to this. Yeah, 505 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: I mean like, and so you're exactly right, like this 506 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: the research is it completely jives with what you're saying. 507 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: You are exactly exactly right. And as bad as that is, right, 508 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: So like platforms are like I would argue that this 509 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 1: this kind of negative engagement and harassment and abuse of 510 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: women of color on these platforms, I would argue that 511 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: is built into these business models like Twitter. When when 512 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: somebody tweets something that is like crapping on Megan Markele 513 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: and it's getting lots of engagement, it is in Twitter's 514 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: best financial interest to boost that and amplify that because 515 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: it's like, oh, this is clickie. People are people are 516 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 1: paying attention to this that's a problem. And I also 517 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: think that you know, we're talking about Megan Markle, who 518 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 1: is a public figure, but she's not a political figure necessarily. 519 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: We're talking about you know, Star Wars and life fandom. 520 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: Think about how that I as bad as that is. 521 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: Apply that to democracy. Apply that to women and women 522 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: of color who are trying to run for office. Apply 523 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,520 Speaker 1: that to women and women of color and other marginalized 524 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: people who are trying to engage in our democracy and 525 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: be part of civic and public life, right, And so 526 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: the implications really become clear. If it's this bad for 527 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: conversations that are you know about pop culture and like celebrities, 528 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: imagine how how big the stakes are when that same 529 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: dynamic is applied to people who are just trying to 530 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: run for office or just trying to make their voices 531 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: heard and participate fully in our democracy. Right. In the 532 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: one report we were talking about, they were specifically focusing 533 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 1: on journalists and talking about this is a part of 534 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:55,600 Speaker 1: their job description. And I think about that all the time. 535 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, because technically is a part 536 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: of our job description. And I hate it. I hate 537 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: it so much because I don't want to become a 538 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 1: focal point at any point noting that we are. Thank God, 539 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:05,120 Speaker 1: because if we go under the radar as well, like 540 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: I said to people like my tweets, it's fine, um, 541 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: but we go under the radar enough that you know, 542 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: we don't have to deal with that before someone who 543 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: has who is being told if you don't get your 544 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: views up, you're not gonna get paid, or you're not 545 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: going to stay in this job. I couldn't imagine. So 546 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 1: I actually literally just left a summit all about this 547 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: as it pretains to journalism. And I when I was 548 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: a kid, I wanted to be a journalist, right like 549 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: I was obsessed with April O'Neil from teenage Mutant into Turtles. 550 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: I wanted to be a journalist like that was like 551 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: the career that I wanted to go into. And today 552 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 1: the fact that young women like who are younger go 553 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: into journalism like like willingly, it surprises me because I 554 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: think a lot of women have women are smart enough 555 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: to realize if I'm going if the cost of doing 556 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: this job is dealing with with online abuse, online harassment, 557 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: online violence, and my male counterparts are not dealing with 558 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 1: it the same way that I am. So it's just 559 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: like the it's just like an extra woman tax or 560 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: you know, marginalization tax in the workplace, and institutions largely 561 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: do not know how to support women who are going 562 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: through this and dealing with this, and so it's like 563 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: just their problem. There's an assumption that the person who 564 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: is the focal point of harassment and abuse that they've 565 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: done something to warrant it, and that completely is not 566 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: how it works. Like oftentimes the thing that they're doing 567 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: is like existing as a woman. Um, and so think 568 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: about what we are asking women to deal with. It's 569 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: just completely unfair, and we're asking them to deal with 570 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: it and not even talk about the issue, right, and 571 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,280 Speaker 1: so it's completely it's that's a completely unfair dynamic. When 572 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: I think about how many people have either just given 573 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,880 Speaker 1: up on this as a career, they're just like, I'm 574 00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: not going to get on social media. It's not worth it. 575 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 1: It has the ability to suppress women from being involved 576 00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: in public and civic life. And the worst part is 577 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 1: is like we were just now talking about it. We're 578 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: so late in bringing it up right, And that's in fact, 579 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: these reports are specific to Twitter, but it's been happening. 580 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 1: It's been happening on bigger platforms and other social media's right, Oh, 581 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: absolutely it is. I don't want to give the impression 582 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: that it is just Twitter, because that is not the case. 583 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: Um So Sentinel also analyzed YouTube accounts and they found 584 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: that because of YouTube monetization, trashing Megan Markel is actually 585 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: big lucrative business. They found that twenty five YouTube channels 586 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: earned around three point five million from ad revenue and 587 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: that three of the most successful anti Megan Markell accounts 588 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: generated almost five hundred thousand dollars during their existence. And 589 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: these videos are like it's not like they're filming, you know, 590 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 1: I know, but yess, it's like they're low quality videos 591 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 1: that basically just traffic in years theories and outright lies 592 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,520 Speaker 1: and like racist stereotypes and tropes, right, and so like 593 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: some of the claims that they'll make is like, oh, 594 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: Megan Markel, she baked her pregnancy, she used to serogate, 595 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: like it's it's things that are completely baseless lies. And 596 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: I think that if you are able to make half 597 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:24,000 Speaker 1: a million dollars almost trafficking in baseless lies and conjecture 598 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: and racism and sexism, you shouldn't be able to If 599 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: you're able to make that kind of money from that, 600 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: something is wrong, like something is really broken. Yeah, yeah, 601 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: I mean agreed, because it's like not that this always works, 602 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 1: but there's been attempts to crack down on like medical 603 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: misinformation UM, like you can't make money off of that. 604 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,800 Speaker 1: It's been hit or miss, but there have been attempts, 605 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 1: and it seems like if there's just something flatly untrue, 606 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 1: you should not be making millions of dollars from it 607 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: by saying that it is true. And then just like 608 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: the the spreading of that UM and how harmful that 609 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,879 Speaker 1: is on these platforms. And we've seen and like we said, 610 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: like the trickle effect of people believing that this is 611 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: the discourse. And so therefore women have it hard enough already, 612 00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: like in the public office, like I just don't like her, 613 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 1: There's something about her, and to have like just this 614 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: overwhelming discourse of like no, no one likes her, and 615 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: so it just it just seems so toxic and that 616 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 1: people are making money from it is very frustrating. And 617 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: I definitely agree that means something is wrong here. Yeah, 618 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 1: And I want to be clear, like I didn't really 619 00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: have strong feelings about Megan Markele. I like that she's 620 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: a black princess, but or was a black princess, and yeah, 621 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: I know she wasn't really princess, but whatever. I but like, 622 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: if you don't like Megan Markele, that's fine, You're it's 623 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: it's totally within your right to be like, I don't 624 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: like her, ruthers me the wrong way. Whatever. We all 625 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: have people that we don't like, but that is very 626 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: different than you know, I am going to spearhead a 627 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: coordinated campaign to make it seem like everybody doesn't like her, 628 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,360 Speaker 1: and that campaign is going to be built on racism, sexism, 629 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,279 Speaker 1: and lies about who she is. And I say that 630 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: because when you do that, you're making us all less safe. 631 00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: It truly does threaten our democracy. When you're able to 632 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: tell those kinds of inflammatory lies and have them take 633 00:36:33,719 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 1: up so much space in the room, it makes all 634 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,160 Speaker 1: of us that much less safe, particularly women and women 635 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: of color. It makes it so much harder for us 636 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: to thrive in environments where we can be judged on 637 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: our character, things that we actually do and actually say, 638 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,800 Speaker 1: not made up conspiracy theories about us putting microphones in 639 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,360 Speaker 1: our panties, right, like, we need to have a discourse 640 00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: where honest, thoughtful, accurate conversation about who we are as 641 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:06,959 Speaker 1: marginalized people dominates and crap like that does not. Yeah, yeah, 642 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:10,160 Speaker 1: I remember very vividly this essay I read a while 643 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,439 Speaker 1: back that was like, you know, if a woman stands 644 00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: up in the town square and is saying something is 645 00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 1: wrong here, and as thousand men threatened her with violence 646 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,400 Speaker 1: and are screaming over her, who's like, freedom of speech 647 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: is being threatened here? Because it feels like that because, 648 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 1: like you said, so many people leave, so many marginalized 649 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 1: people and women leave because they're facing this what they feel? What? 650 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: What is this like shouting hateful vitriol that makes you 651 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 1: feel unsafe in the space, and it makes it impossible 652 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,200 Speaker 1: for us to have these healthy conversations that are necessary 653 00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: and needed for a democracy. Absolutely, I would also argue 654 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: that like that, it's by design, it's meant to come 655 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: up the works. It's meant to have people who are 656 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 1: interested in actual discussion and dialogue to check out and 657 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: be like, no, banks don't want to risk risk it 658 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: by putting my thoughts out there. And it's meant to 659 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 1: make sure that we can't find unity, that we can't 660 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: come together, that we can't make progress on all the 661 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,960 Speaker 1: issues that are impacting us and have the conversations that 662 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:11,000 Speaker 1: we need to have that might move us forward on 663 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,879 Speaker 1: those issues. Right well, Virgid, is there any has there 664 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: been any changes? Is there any hope? There is a 665 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: little bit of hope. Right So. Earlier so I mentioned 666 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: how on YouTube people are able to make big money 667 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,200 Speaker 1: basically just running single purpose hate accounts against Megan Markele 668 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,479 Speaker 1: not anymore. Earlier this year, YouTube made a big change. 669 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,479 Speaker 1: They do ranked anti Megan Market results from their search. 670 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 1: In a really great BuzzFeed piece by Ellie Hall which 671 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: shout out to Elliet Hall, she has done some fantastic 672 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: reporting on Megan Markel and race and culture and what 673 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: it all means. Uh, Ellie Hall rights. But now you'll 674 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 1: only find videos from verified accounts and news outlets in 675 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 1: the YouTube search results for Megan Markel and first recommendations 676 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: in the sidebar, even if you explicitly searched for and 677 00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: started watching video is that accused Megan Market of being 678 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: a narcissist or videos claiming that she wore fake ballet 679 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 1: to make herself look pregnant. YouTube's recommendation sidebar won't initially 680 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:11,879 Speaker 1: serve you similar videos, and so, uh, I do think 681 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: that that is a step in the right direction. Like 682 00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: I gotta give it to YouTube that that was a 683 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,320 Speaker 1: good call, because yeah, when you search any topic, but 684 00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: let's use Megan market at an example. It is not 685 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: it should not be in YouTube's best interest for the 686 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: first search results, but the things that they're promoting for 687 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,080 Speaker 1: the recommended videos that they're surfacing to you to be 688 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: videos from people whose whole thing is hating on that 689 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:41,560 Speaker 1: one thing. Right, it should be honest, accurate content. I 690 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: would love to throw and thoughtful in there, but I 691 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: think if because it's gets accurate, that would be great. 692 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,160 Speaker 1: That would be a great start for just just just 693 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:53,920 Speaker 1: do this because it's gotten so off the royals and 694 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: it's just like, just just be true. At least if 695 00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: you're going to say Nick and Markle is married to 696 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,600 Speaker 1: Prince Harry, just just into with that. I'll watch that 697 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 1: over anything. This is the biggest conversation, like why is 698 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: it significant when people talk about Megan Markel knew what 699 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: she was coming onto. Again, it's just one of those 700 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: places of like, but she just got married, but that's 701 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: the end, she didn't want to be a princess because 702 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,200 Speaker 1: so many accusations came at her that they're like, you 703 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 1: know what, we're leaving this royal family stuff. We're done. 704 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,879 Speaker 1: We're done because we're getting attacked from every circle, whether 705 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 1: it's she's uh a gold digger, slash, I guess a 706 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,520 Speaker 1: royalty digger? Is that? Is that that sort of name, 707 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: is that something um or versus to her want to 708 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 1: disrupt the family, all of these things that what just 709 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,320 Speaker 1: happened was they got set up. They are famous. She 710 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: wasn't that famous. She just she was an actress. She 711 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:57,759 Speaker 1: was good at our job. She could have kept going. 712 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:01,239 Speaker 1: She met him, got married, and that's it. She's not 713 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: trying to be political, she's not trying to be royalty. 714 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 1: She just wants to be a part of our family. 715 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: Has some really good good relationship with her mother, bad 716 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 1: relationship with bother, just being that and because of that, 717 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: she's getting all this vitriol being compared to the other royalties. Uh, 718 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:18,520 Speaker 1: we we know what this is. We know what this 719 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: looks like. And for her, who was not even on 720 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,080 Speaker 1: social media, who continues to be attacked, is just one 721 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: of those parts of like she doesn't deserve this. There's 722 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: nothing that she did that deserves this. There's no conversation 723 00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,560 Speaker 1: where we think that this is earned. And she she 724 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: put herself out there. She's not a politician taking a 725 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: stance on anything. She's just being like, that's it, Yeah, 726 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: you something that you said. I hadn't even really thought 727 00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: about this, But I think that people's reactions to Megan 728 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: Markle really demonstrate how women of color especially are really 729 00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:01,000 Speaker 1: not allowed to publicly be multifaceted, comply humans. It's like 730 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,120 Speaker 1: the fact that like, oh, she has a you know, 731 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 1: complicated relationship with her father who doesn't write. Like they 732 00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,360 Speaker 1: use these incredibly human things where it's like, yeah, welcome 733 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: to being a human in relationships with other humans. Sometimes 734 00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,360 Speaker 1: that these things happen, Like they find these incredibly human 735 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 1: things that we all experience, and they they use it 736 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 1: or they frame it as like a negative against her. 737 00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,239 Speaker 1: In these ways I just think are just completely transparent. 738 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: It's so obvious what's happening. And the way that they 739 00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:34,719 Speaker 1: talk about her with this like I wanna say this, 740 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 1: They're quite good at talking about her with this plausible 741 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: deniability of like oh, I didn't mean I didn't mean 742 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,279 Speaker 1: that racially When I called her Compton Kate, even though 743 00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:47,080 Speaker 1: she's not from Compton. I didn't mean anything race like 744 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: race truly, but I didn't say anything racially motivated there. 745 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 1: I was just saying she's from California and Compton it's 746 00:42:52,840 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: also a city in California, you know, yeah, yeah, I 747 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: mean this is again, I feel like we need a 748 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 1: new segment bridget where you come on and we do 749 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 1: like ramps, but I feel like this, there's so much 750 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: of this. It is like questioning women's ambition and it 751 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: still seems to be in this very like old system 752 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:22,439 Speaker 1: of royalty, like, oh, she's just trying to marry into 753 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: the royal family. We can't trust anything she does, and 754 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,160 Speaker 1: she's trying to ruin this tradition by being her and 755 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: like just constantly questioning and calling out what women's intentions are. 756 00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: And it's funny because I find myself having I mean, 757 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,920 Speaker 1: these systems are so ingrained that I'm not immune to it. 758 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: Like I when I read articles about ambitious women, like 759 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,239 Speaker 1: I have to really check myself internally and be like, well, 760 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: are you really just like adding this like sexist trope 761 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:03,040 Speaker 1: on to this woman that assumes that she must be 762 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 1: you know, misleading this like simple childlike man who doesn't 763 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,319 Speaker 1: know any better, and and oftentimes the answer is yes, 764 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:12,560 Speaker 1: and I have to step back and be like, well, 765 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: let's unpact why your assumption was that this woman who 766 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: was ambitious and powerful must be you know, calling the 767 00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,839 Speaker 1: shots and misleading this like dull lord of a man. 768 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: Isn't that kind of insulting to both of them? Yeah? 769 00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,319 Speaker 1: It just goes to show like how ingrained these these 770 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:32,320 Speaker 1: systems are and how insidious they are, and the work 771 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: that each individual needs to do to unpack them. And 772 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 1: myself very much included, right, Yeah, me, all of us. 773 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,239 Speaker 1: I think we all have these things that we just 774 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 1: didn't realize that we did internalize so much, and something 775 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 1: like this, you know, the Royal family, Mega Markle can 776 00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:55,239 Speaker 1: seem kind of frivolous. It's not that it can kind 777 00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:58,320 Speaker 1: of feel that way because celebrity culture kind of insights 778 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: that a lot. But as we've been alluding to a 779 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:05,920 Speaker 1: lot throughout this, it does matter, right, Oh, it matters hugely. 780 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,120 Speaker 1: Like I would say that the reactions to Megan Merkel 781 00:45:08,480 --> 00:45:10,959 Speaker 1: really shows how easy it is for a relatively small 782 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,080 Speaker 1: amount of people to create an effective and negative echo 783 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:17,880 Speaker 1: chamber that can be fueled by things like racism and sexism. 784 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,840 Speaker 1: You know, again, if eighty three accounts are able to 785 00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:24,440 Speaker 1: generate the majority of negative chatter about one person and 786 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,920 Speaker 1: create the impression inorganically that that is the overall sentiment 787 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,400 Speaker 1: of that person, it kind of means that our digital 788 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: landscape and our platforms might not be so healthy. Yes, yes, 789 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:37,400 Speaker 1: and and I don't think we went over this, but 790 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,399 Speaker 1: there were those the people who are doing this, who 791 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,520 Speaker 1: are running these accounts know what they're doing. They know 792 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 1: how to manipulate the system. We talked about that, but 793 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,279 Speaker 1: they have like very specific ways. So if there's if 794 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: we are on working in these systems where the eight three, 795 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:55,120 Speaker 1: these eight three people can just manipulate these rules and 796 00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,760 Speaker 1: kind of skate being banned and these what some people 797 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,840 Speaker 1: who or maybe casual Twitter users or what have users 798 00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: assume like, oh Twitter has these rules, they'll kick people off. 799 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,040 Speaker 1: But that's not working either. No, it's not working right, 800 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,839 Speaker 1: And so I would say the fact that platforms still 801 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,800 Speaker 1: allow this largely is a big problem, right, And the 802 00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: fact that it's profitable that you can make money from it, 803 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: and I think it's incentivized, and so again, like we 804 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,680 Speaker 1: it's these eighty three people are bad actors, but also 805 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,520 Speaker 1: more institutionally, platforms need to do something to make sure 806 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: that relatively small handful of people can't hijack an entire 807 00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: conversation about a subject. And again, I know that a 808 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:38,719 Speaker 1: lot of people that I respect would say that the 809 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,439 Speaker 1: answer is to ban single issue hate accounts or single 810 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,759 Speaker 1: person hate accounts, that we should be banning those, and 811 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,759 Speaker 1: I again, I I think that there's always going to 812 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,560 Speaker 1: be people who they're staying is hating on other public figures, 813 00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: and so I don't necessarily think that like those people 814 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,200 Speaker 1: should not be able to do that, Like I don't 815 00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 1: love it, and like I wouldn't recommend it, and I 816 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,480 Speaker 1: would never be friends with somebody who would do that, 817 00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: and I would never do that. But there's I feel 818 00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: that there's always going to be people who are hell 819 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,719 Speaker 1: bent on hating on others, and I think that's just 820 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: like a reality of the world that we live in. 821 00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,399 Speaker 1: But even so, platforms don't have to make money off 822 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:16,880 Speaker 1: of it, profit off of it, amplify it, normalize it, 823 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:19,920 Speaker 1: you know, like they can take some accountability. And so 824 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,719 Speaker 1: I don't know, I think that the real the real 825 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,480 Speaker 1: For me at least, the real problem here is what 826 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,799 Speaker 1: happens when platforms just allow this and it becomes the norm. 827 00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 1: Because I really have seen the way that this same 828 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,480 Speaker 1: dynamic can be applied to political leaders, women running for office, 829 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,600 Speaker 1: women journalists, and I think the implications when you apply 830 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: it that way really become clear. It's it's it's they're 831 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,480 Speaker 1: quite dire, and yeah, people can make money off of it. 832 00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:49,279 Speaker 1: Like the fact that we're looking at Forbes magazine with 833 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:53,239 Speaker 1: TikTok stars talking about how the number one stars making 834 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 1: almost twenty million dollars per you. It's kind of like 835 00:47:55,880 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: what wait, what? And the realization is literally, TikTok the 836 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,759 Speaker 1: platform helped elevate these individuals and have made them a 837 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: household market and have made them profitable and have created 838 00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: a new genre of celebrities. Is that a thing, right? 839 00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,520 Speaker 1: I mean, the fact is they have a lot of power, 840 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:21,320 Speaker 1: whether we want to admit it or not. And it 841 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,240 Speaker 1: it plays into obviously, as you were talking about Star Wars, 842 00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:27,400 Speaker 1: it plays into movies, is played into what's being created, 843 00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,239 Speaker 1: it's plays into what's being pulled, is played into who 844 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: ends up being on uh, who ends up becoming leaders. 845 00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:39,080 Speaker 1: It absolutely affects everything, and when it's specifically targeted to 846 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: silence marginalized individuals, like what has happened with Megan Markel 847 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,359 Speaker 1: that she got off of social media. We've seen many 848 00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 1: teen celebrities, young girls get off social media because it's 849 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: the constant were rating, constant trolling that it becomes a thing. 850 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:57,399 Speaker 1: We've seen individuals being terrorized for making a comment about 851 00:48:57,400 --> 00:49:01,320 Speaker 1: someone's favorite musicians. It's the whole level of like what 852 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: is happening and the fact that this has allowed to 853 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,439 Speaker 1: happen and there's no one who seemingly controls it, even 854 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:10,840 Speaker 1: though it's under a platform that is a private company exactly. 855 00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I couldn't have put it better myself. And 856 00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:15,800 Speaker 1: when I think about the ways that you know, the 857 00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: younger generation, the generation coming up behind me, they're largely 858 00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:23,799 Speaker 1: like you know, the online generation, and so they're learning 859 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:26,800 Speaker 1: about politics and the world around them and civic engagement 860 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,160 Speaker 1: from the internet. The ways that they exert that power 861 00:49:30,239 --> 00:49:33,319 Speaker 1: in those voices is are are largely online. If our 862 00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,040 Speaker 1: online systems are so toxic that people don't even want 863 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:38,840 Speaker 1: to be part of them, that is an entire generation 864 00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,840 Speaker 1: of marginalized young people who early on have just checked 865 00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,400 Speaker 1: out and that is a huge problem. Yeah. Yeah. And 866 00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:49,640 Speaker 1: on top of that, I think of kind of the 867 00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:53,680 Speaker 1: toxic messaging we get from a very young age um 868 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,920 Speaker 1: as women, and so you internalize some of this stuff. 869 00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,239 Speaker 1: And then if you were exposed to these so ual 870 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,080 Speaker 1: platforms that are just reinforcing all the toxic messaging, that's 871 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:11,120 Speaker 1: not good. That's that's very, very bad. Yeah. I guess 872 00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,120 Speaker 1: like I just strongly feel that we all deserve better. 873 00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,879 Speaker 1: Like we we we can have better. The reason why 874 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,200 Speaker 1: things are not better, I would argue, or because it's 875 00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:25,239 Speaker 1: lining the pockets of mostly white, straight cys men who 876 00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: build these systems and profit from them, and them we 877 00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:31,280 Speaker 1: deserve better. I don't care if they all go bankrupt 878 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:32,759 Speaker 1: if it means that we can have something better for 879 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,360 Speaker 1: the rest of us. Yes, see, the rich like it. 880 00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,120 Speaker 1: I love it. Um Well, thank you so much as always, Bridget, 881 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:45,080 Speaker 1: it was a delight to have you. Every time we 882 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:46,840 Speaker 1: have these, I'm like, well, we gotta talk about this, 883 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:48,279 Speaker 1: we gotta talk about this, we gotta have about this. 884 00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,759 Speaker 1: So are there any resources you want to shout out 885 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,000 Speaker 1: or where can the listeners find you? Both well, I 886 00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,880 Speaker 1: definitely recommend checking out bought sentinels work. They put out 887 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,920 Speaker 1: research briefings that are so fascinating and Christopher Bose has 888 00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,400 Speaker 1: done such a the job of really helping me understand 889 00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,359 Speaker 1: what's happening on the internet, so definitely check them out. Um. 890 00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Bridget Murray or 891 00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: on Instagram at Bridget Marian d C and check out 892 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:17,000 Speaker 1: my podcast There are no girls on the Internet. Yes, yes, yes, 893 00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,600 Speaker 1: absolutely do that. Listeners, if you have not already, thank 894 00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,360 Speaker 1: you again a Bridget for being here. Cannot wait until 895 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 1: the next time, me too, thanks for having me Yes 896 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,480 Speaker 1: absolutely always a wonderful, wonderful pleasure and the listeners. If 897 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:31,720 Speaker 1: you would like to contact us, you can or emails 898 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: stuff me your mom stuff at I hurt meat dot com. 899 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,600 Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at Mom's of podcast 900 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,399 Speaker 1: or Instagram and stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as 901 00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,520 Speaker 1: always too, are super producer Christina. Thank you Christina, and 902 00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:42,560 Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening someone Never told you the 903 00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:44,320 Speaker 1: protection of I Heart Radio. For more podcast for my 904 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:45,879 Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the heart Radio app 905 00:51:45,880 --> 00:51:48,040 Speaker 1: Apple podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows