Speaker 1: On theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 2: As we're already into the third month of twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: this year has started off with a bang, A very
Speaker 2: chaotic year in general, but for black storytelling in particular.
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty four got Hands. But you think the black
Speaker 1: storytelling realm has been chaotic too?
Speaker 2: I mean, who can forget Kat Williams stirring the pot
Speaker 2: during his Club Chashe interview in the beginning of January, You.
Speaker 1: Having an unnatural allegiance to losers.
Speaker 3: It's not like you.
Speaker 1: He had the Internet going wild with all the allegations.
Speaker 3: Epitome of standing on big business.
Speaker 2: Then, near the end of January, the h town hottie
Speaker 2: Megan thee Stallion released a single Hits, where she took
Speaker 2: shots at unnamed ops.
Speaker 1: Unnamed but one rapper did decide to respond.
Speaker 2: What they be saying about hit dogs anyway? Nicki Mina's
Speaker 2: responded via tweet, Instagram lives, and a radio app called
Speaker 2: station Head, And finally, in a song titled Bigfoot.
Speaker 1: The girls are fighting in the words of the late
Speaker 1: Rodney King.
Speaker 4: Can we all get along? Can we get along?
Speaker 2: It's looking like the answer is no. And with Kat
Speaker 2: coming for Cedric the Entertainer and Steve.
Speaker 1: Harvey, Ricky Smalley and Ludacris, Kevin hart Yup and Tiffany
Speaker 1: Hattish everybody.
Speaker 2: Basically people were saying he was hating on them, trying
Speaker 2: to bring them down, But I don't think that's quite it.
Speaker 1: You don't think Cat's a hater. I know you got
Speaker 1: your pH D player hater degree.
Speaker 2: I mean, I do think he'd be hating a little bit,
Speaker 2: but as we discussed in our episode, I like to
Speaker 2: thank my haters. Offering principal criticism isn't hating. And when
Speaker 2: someone like Kat Williams, who is objectively funnier than comedians
Speaker 2: like Steve Harvey and Cedric the Entertainer, has comments about
Speaker 2: how they carry themselves as comics, I think that ventures
Speaker 2: into Hayden's first cousin beef, which I happen to have
Speaker 2: a bachelor's.
Speaker 1: In beef, is nothing new, but it's particularly raw this year.
Speaker 2: Yes, and with Meghan and Niki, one of the main
Speaker 2: talking points I saw was that Nicki Minaj was going
Speaker 2: to ruin her legacy by trying to go back and
Speaker 2: forth with Meghan, and while I am te Meghan one
Speaker 2: hundred percent. I don't know if that's actually true if
Speaker 2: we look at past beef's in the storytelling realm. People
Speaker 2: love to rehash beef, sure, but the few artists find
Speaker 2: themselves in rarely overshadow their most important works. Take Tupac
Speaker 2: versus Biggie, for example, their beef had a fatal ending.
Speaker 2: But I've never heard anyone claim that their legacies have
Speaker 2: been ruined from beefing or Spike Lee coming for Tyler Perry.
Speaker 2: When folks still a retrospective on Spike's career, I don't
Speaker 2: think there will be much hand ringing about him beefing
Speaker 2: with Medea's creator. The beef filmmakers, poets, musicians, and authors
Speaker 2: get into maybe interesting like a footnote in their legacy,
Speaker 2: but from what I've witnessed, it doesn't completely ruin the
Speaker 2: public's perception of them over time. I'm Katie and I'm Eves,
Speaker 2: and I got a question, which one of y'all won't beef?
Speaker 1: So, Hayten and beef In are first cousins, Yes, I'd
Speaker 1: say so, So how would you define beef or beef in?
Speaker 2: I define beef as a mutual feud among peers or
Speaker 2: near peers. So there's like no way I could be
Speaker 2: beefing with Oprah. I could offer some principal critiques which
Speaker 2: I have, or I could be hate no, no, but
Speaker 2: I can't beef with her. We're just not in the
Speaker 2: same stratosphere.
Speaker 1: Okay, So per your definition, it takes two to tango
Speaker 1: and they have to be on the same level or
Speaker 1: they'reabout right.
Speaker 2: So her bff, Gail King, could be beef with her,
Speaker 2: I can't beef with her. And when you look at
Speaker 2: the history of black storytelling, you'll find plenty of equally
Speaker 2: yoked beef. Because I'm a bookish gal, we'll focus on
Speaker 2: beef between writers, specifically Zora Neilhurston and other writers of
Speaker 2: the Harlem Renaissance. Part one, Zora Neil Hurston Versus Langston Hughes.
Speaker 2: Let's venture back to post World War One America. It
Speaker 2: was the dawn of the Jazz Age, and as music, art,
Speaker 2: and literature converge. With this great migration, the Harlem Renaissance
Speaker 2: is born, an explosion of cultural, social, and intellectual and
Speaker 2: artistic expression rooted in the Black experience. Two literary stars
Speaker 2: who became synonymous with the Harlem Renaissance are none other
Speaker 2: than Zora Neilhurston and Lenggston Hughes and nineteen twenty seven,
Speaker 2: the two had a chance encounter outside a mobile Alabama
Speaker 2: train station. Zora was in town to interview Kadjo Lewis,
Speaker 2: the last living former slave born in Africa. Langston was
Speaker 2: in Alabama giving readings and doing some research. The two
Speaker 2: decided to go on a tour of the Deep South.
Speaker 2: During their road trip, they learned they shared a love
Speaker 2: for black folklore, everyday Black Folks, an adventure. In her
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine essay Turning into Love some thoughts on
Speaker 2: surviving and meeting Langston Hughes, Alice Walker says of Zora
Speaker 2: and Langston's friendship, it is so easy to see how
Speaker 2: and why they would love each other. Each was to
Speaker 2: the other an affirming example of what black people could
Speaker 2: be like. Wow, crazy, creative, spontaneous, at ease with who
Speaker 2: they are, and funny.
Speaker 1: Damn. I really don't want their friendship to end now.
Speaker 2: They did maintain a close friendship for many years and
Speaker 2: even had the same patron, Charlotte Mason. Patroon basically a
Speaker 2: rich white person who supported artists financially, and that's nice
Speaker 2: of Charlotte I guess well, Charlotte did give both Zora
Speaker 2: and Langston healthy monthly stipends. She was still pretty racist though.
Speaker 2: She believed African Americans and Native Americans were quote younger
Speaker 2: races unspoiled by white civilization, and that American culture could
Speaker 2: be re energized by exposing it to primitive ones.
Speaker 1: That was very paternalistic of her.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it turns out Charlotte was central and Dora and
Speaker 2: Langston's friendship, and they're falling out. She demanded complete devotion
Speaker 2: from the black folks she was sponsoring. She even controlled
Speaker 2: Zora's work to the point that Zora wasn't allowed to
Speaker 2: show anyone else without Charlotte's permission. That being said, Zora
Speaker 2: and Lanston did produce some of their most enduring works
Speaker 2: during the time that she was sponsoring them. But here's
Speaker 2: where the beef comes in, and it all starts as
Speaker 2: a play called mule Bone. Zora and Langston began working
Speaker 2: on mule Bone in March nineteen thirty. The play was
Speaker 2: based on a folk tale Zor her during one of
Speaker 2: her anthropological trips to Florida.
Speaker 3: The pair dedicated the play to Louise.
Speaker 2: Thompson, their typist sounds good so far, so by June
Speaker 2: the play was almost done. Zora went away for the summer,
Speaker 2: took her notes, and promised to return in the fall
Speaker 2: so they could finish the play. But when she came back,
Speaker 2: she would not return Langston's cause. Zora felt that Langston
Speaker 2: wanted to list Louise Thompson The Typist as a third
Speaker 2: contributor and was not down with that at all. Some
Speaker 2: historians believed Zora was jealous of Langston and Louise's relationship,
Speaker 2: but I don't know, I don't know. Also, during this time,
Speaker 2: Langston was in the process of severing his relationship with Charlotte.
Speaker 1: Ooh, I knew she was gonna come back in it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Charlotte was controlling Langston too. According to Langston Hughes
Speaker 2: biographer Faith Barry, Charlotte chose the books Langston could read,
Speaker 2: the music he can listen to, and the plays he
Speaker 2: could watch. So when Langston got out of his relationship
Speaker 2: with Charlotte, she preyed on his downfall and took Zora's
Speaker 2: side in her dispute with Langston. Some historians think Zora
Speaker 2: was trying to protect her relationship with Charlotte by shunning
Speaker 2: Hughes because while Langston cut himself off from Charlotte's purse strings,
Speaker 2: Zora remained close to her till Charlotte died in nineteen
Speaker 2: forty six.
Speaker 1: Zora wasn't trying to jeopardize that bag, y'all.
Speaker 2: And wasn't, so she's not communicating with Langston right, And
Speaker 2: in October of nineteen thirty she submits mule Bone for copyright,
Speaker 2: listing only herself as the author.
Speaker 3: Zora Girl Yes.
Speaker 2: And in January of nineteen thirty one, Langston finds out
Speaker 2: that a copy of mule Bone, listing only hersu's name,
Speaker 2: was sent to Gilpen Players, an all black theater company
Speaker 2: in Cleveland, for their consideration. I know he was mad, big, mad, furious,
Speaker 2: I rate, but Zora wasn't the one who sent the
Speaker 2: play to Gilpen.
Speaker 3: It was actually Carl van Vechten.
Speaker 2: Zora had sent him a copy and he said it
Speaker 2: to Gilpen without telling her. During all this kerfuffle, Langston
Speaker 2: applied for a copyright under both their names. Gilpin wanted
Speaker 2: to stage the play, but it still neededn't work. There
Speaker 2: was some back and forth. Zora refused to allow productions
Speaker 2: to play. Then she authorized it under the condition that
Speaker 2: she could work with Langston on changes. Then she sent
Speaker 2: Langston a letter saying he didn't write any of the play.
Speaker 2: So with all that drama, Gilpen decided not to go
Speaker 2: forward with the play, and Langston Hughes's copy of Meal
Speaker 2: Bone in his papers at Yale. He pinned a handwritten
Speaker 2: note summarizing it down with him Zora Ammuel Bone. The
Speaker 2: notation reads, this play was never done because the authors
Speaker 2: fell out.
Speaker 1: Dang, so no one ever got to see Meal Bone.
Speaker 3: Oh no, they did.
Speaker 2: It hit the stage for the first time in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety one, over sixty years after it was written. It
Speaker 2: was met with mostly negative reviews and the consensus that
Speaker 2: if Langston and Zora would have finished the play together
Speaker 2: then it would have been much better.
Speaker 1: Wow, the beef really impacted the art. That's tragic.
Speaker 2: And while a copyright issue was the center of Zora
Speaker 2: and Langston's beef, ideological differences fueled Zora Neil Herstin's and
Speaker 2: Richard writes beef and they did not mince words.
Speaker 3: More on that after the Break.
Speaker 2: Part two, zor Neil Hurston versus Richard Wright and other
Speaker 2: respectable negroes to understand why Zora Neilhurston and Richer Wright
Speaker 2: had beef. You have to understand some of the contexts
Speaker 2: of the Harlem Renaissance. The Harlem Renaissance was an artistic
Speaker 2: flowering of the New Negro movement. Its participants celebrated their
Speaker 2: African heritage and embraced self expression, rejecting long standing and
Speaker 2: often degrading stereotypes. Richard Wright wrote what you might call
Speaker 2: protest novels, works that were overtly political and interested in
Speaker 2: sending a capital M message. Richard Wright used his role
Speaker 2: as a Harlem Renaissance writer to reveal the humanity of
Speaker 2: black people through the strength of arts and letters. And
Speaker 2: Zor Neil Hurston was explicitly not on that she wrote
Speaker 2: for the sake of writing, rather than for a greater
Speaker 2: political good. Some even questioned her standing as a Harlem
Speaker 2: Renaissance writer because of her flat refusal to politicize her
Speaker 2: early writings. Richard Wright and other writer's acute Zora of
Speaker 2: using African American stereotypes in her writing to pander to
Speaker 2: white audiences.
Speaker 1: That is an evergreen accusation. I've read some of Zora's work.
Speaker 1: What did Richard say about it? Like, what did he
Speaker 1: find offensive?
Speaker 2: So the back and forth between them starts after Their
Speaker 2: Eyes Were Watching God is published.
Speaker 1: Give a quick synopsis for folks who aren't familiar with
Speaker 1: the book.
Speaker 2: Sure Their Eyes is written using a Southern dialect. It
Speaker 2: tells the story of Janie, who, after childhood hardships and
Speaker 2: difficult marriages, finds the love she seeks in a young
Speaker 2: blue singer named Teacake. The two live happily until Jane
Speaker 2: shoots him after he attacks her. Richard wrote a scathing
Speaker 2: review that appeared in The New Masses on October fifth,
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty seven.
Speaker 4: In part, he says, miss Herston voluntarily continues in her
Speaker 4: novel the tradition which was forced upon the Negro in
Speaker 4: the theater, That is the menstrual technique that makes the
Speaker 4: white folks laugh. Her characters eat and laugh and cry
Speaker 4: and work and kill. They swing like a pendulum eternally
Speaker 4: in that safe and narrow orbit in which America likes
Speaker 4: to see the Negro live between laughter and tears.
Speaker 1: It was really bold of Richard to say that in
Speaker 1: public in that way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like they was going at each other, But
Speaker 2: he didn't step there. He goes on to.
Speaker 4: Say, the sensory sweep of her novel carries no theme,
Speaker 4: no message, no thought. In the main, her novel is
Speaker 4: not addressed to the Negro but to a white audience
Speaker 4: whose chauvinistic tastes she knows how to satisfy. She exploits
Speaker 4: that phase of Negro life which is quaint, the phase
Speaker 4: which evokes a piteous smile on the lips of the
Speaker 4: superior race.
Speaker 1: That's really hard hitting, honestly, and that's a pretty big accusation.
Speaker 3: It was like a very eloquent read.
Speaker 1: Yes, a read I feel like read is putting it
Speaker 1: very lightly though, and other black writers agreed with Richard Wright,
Speaker 1: including Ralph Ellison, W. E. B.
Speaker 2: Du Bois, Alan Locke, and Otis Ferguson. But white audiences
Speaker 2: reviewed the book positively, which.
Speaker 1: I'm sure Richard saw as evidence that his take on
Speaker 1: it was right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but not only him. Remember Charlotte Mason, Zora's patron.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, how could I forget? What about her?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 2: As I said, she was really controlling in Racist She
Speaker 2: got Zora to sign an agreement that stated that all
Speaker 2: the material that Zora wrote would be the legal property
Speaker 2: of Charlotte, and Zora could only use it with written permission.
Speaker 2: In Yearning Race, Gender, and Cultural Politics, Bell Hooks asserts
Speaker 2: that it is difficult to believe that Herston was blind
Speaker 2: to the cultural imperialism the white supremacy of her sponsor.
Speaker 2: She goes on to argue that because of Charlotte Mason's
Speaker 2: financial support of herson, she enforced specific themes and subjects
Speaker 2: onto Hurston's work.
Speaker 1: So Charlotte was getting Zora to include the stereotypical depictions
Speaker 1: of black folks that Richard White sound offensive.
Speaker 3: That's the thought process.
Speaker 2: But I say, even if it wasn't explicit, Zora knew
Speaker 2: that the lady had her views right, and she knew
Speaker 2: she needed money, so preemptively added some stuff that she
Speaker 2: knew would reinforce Charlotte's worldview.
Speaker 1: Mm hm, that would make sense. What does Zorra have
Speaker 1: to say about all of this anything?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 1: Did?
Speaker 2: She said, I am not interested in the race problem,
Speaker 2: but I am interested in the problems of individuals, white
Speaker 2: ones and black ones.
Speaker 1: I guess that goes back to what you said about
Speaker 1: her writing being apolitical.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: She criticized what she described as quote race pride and
Speaker 2: race consciousness, describing it as a thing to be a board,
Speaker 2: stating suppose.
Speaker 5: A Negro does something really magnificent and not glory, not
Speaker 5: in the benefit to mankind, but in the fact that
Speaker 5: the doer was a Negro. Must I not also go
Speaker 5: hang my head in shame when a member of my
Speaker 5: race does something execrable. The white race did not go
Speaker 5: into a laboratory and invent incandescent light. That was edison.
Speaker 5: If you are under the impression that every white man
Speaker 5: is an Edison, just look around a bit. If you
Speaker 5: have the idea that every Negro is a carver, you
Speaker 5: have better take off plenty of time to do your searching.
Speaker 3: What do you say about that?
Speaker 1: It's a little bit troubling. In some ways, She's not wrong,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like, yes, we are all
Speaker 1: made differently. We all don't have the same paths in life.
Speaker 1: We all don't, you know, have the same roles, and
Speaker 1: we do different things. That's true. But I think this
Speaker 1: kind of sentiment and response to race pride and race
Speaker 1: consciousness in a way ignores the reason behind race pride
Speaker 1: and race consciousness, which is that we've been through a
Speaker 1: lot of shit. So a little dismissive in ways. But
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say I don't feel where she's coming from,
Speaker 1: because you know, we take the ups with the downs.
Speaker 1: That's a fair point across the board. I just think
Speaker 1: it's a little misplaced in this instance.
Speaker 2: I really interested to see what Zora Neil Hurston thinks
Speaker 2: of her like standing in American culture now, because she
Speaker 2: is like lumped into all these Harlem Renaissance writers who,
Speaker 2: for the most part, were on that race pride stuff,
Speaker 2: even though she wasn't. When I first learned about Zora
Speaker 2: Neil Heherston in high school, as far as like her
Speaker 2: books and stuff, I think their eyes were watching God.
Speaker 3: It wasn't even a sign.
Speaker 2: It was like, you can read these five books, and
Speaker 2: like her book was the only black one, so I
Speaker 2: read that one, but the teacher wasn't like, oh, zorineel
Speaker 2: Hurston was like against race pride, you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: And I think like at that time it was pretty
Speaker 2: well known that she was kind of like a contrarian
Speaker 2: in that regard. But I think as a contrarian you
Speaker 2: got to be contrary. You can't agree with these niggas,
Speaker 2: even if you kind of do what do you mean?
Speaker 2: I think that was her role in the Harlem Renissance
Speaker 2: was to be contrary to Richard Wright, to W. E. B.
Speaker 2: Du Bois to like say these things like I'm not black,
Speaker 2: I'm Zora. You know she said it first. Okay, sorry, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think that's a fair point. And even if it
Speaker 2: wasn't the case where she was specifically trying to be contrarian,
Speaker 2: it's like she wasn't the only person who was not
Speaker 2: trying to be in the race consciousness lane at the time,
Speaker 2: Like there were other people who were writing who wanted
Speaker 2: to be more focused on like historical fact rather than
Speaker 2: writing things that were about uplifting the race, rather than
Speaker 2: writing things that were about being.
Speaker 1: Race positive specifically. So she wasn't alone in thinking this way,
Speaker 1: because I think Drusilla Dungee Houston was writing at the time,
Speaker 1: and she also was on this way where she was
Speaker 1: talking about historical thing and the roots of where black
Speaker 1: people came from, and she shared kind of similar sentiments.
Speaker 1: She was still in the category of racial uplift, but
Speaker 1: also in some ways said things that were derogatory a
Speaker 1: little bit about other writers in the Harlem Renaissance because
Speaker 1: of how much they focused on art as opposed to
Speaker 1: educating people about the real black history.
Speaker 2: Basically, Okay, because I know Zora got into it with
Speaker 2: w Duvois and you know, this is like a little
Speaker 2: bit after the Harlem Renaissance, but saying that the brown
Speaker 2: versus Board decision like wasn't good basically, and that you know,
Speaker 2: y'all so focused on race, y'all so focused on like
Speaker 2: getting close to white people, which is a criticism of
Speaker 2: the Civil rights movement and desegregation. And yeah, but I
Speaker 2: don't know, I really do think that Bell Hooks is
Speaker 2: onto something like having this white woman who is sponsoring
Speaker 2: your life, like you wouldn't be able to really like
Speaker 2: write these things. And she's racist and you know that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, she's racist. She thinks you're primitive, and you know,
Speaker 2: be next to you. It's giving get out, like you know,
Speaker 2: like you use some of you to reinvigorate herself.
Speaker 3: So I do think that played a part in it.
Speaker 2: And it kind of goes back to our episode the
Speaker 2: Black Struggle Industrial Complex, like when you have like this
Speaker 2: taste maker in your head kind of like controlling the
Speaker 2: art you put out. You're gonna put little goofy things
Speaker 2: in there to appease them, you know, Like they're saying
Speaker 2: that she used all these stereotypes, and she used the
Speaker 2: Southern dialect, which when I read, their eyes were watching God.
Speaker 2: I like the Southern dialect. I never read a book
Speaker 2: like that before. But I know some people were like,
Speaker 2: I literally cannot read this because I can't.
Speaker 3: Catch the flow of the dialogue.
Speaker 2: So I do think Charlotte played a big role in
Speaker 2: like what she spoke out against and the art that
Speaker 2: she put out. But I mean I could see both sides.
Speaker 2: I can see why people were beefing with her, and
Speaker 2: I can see why she was like, f ya, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna do.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna do.
Speaker 2: Me and Charlotte, Yeah, me and my girl.
Speaker 1: Did Sora ever review Richard's work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she came swinging too. In April of nineteen
Speaker 2: thirty eight, she reviewed Uncle Tom's Children, which are novella
Speaker 2: set in the Deep South that focus on the lives
Speaker 2: of black folks during the post slavery era and their
Speaker 2: resistance to white racism and oppression.
Speaker 5: Sora writes, this is a book about hatreds Mister Wright
Speaker 5: serves noticed by his title that he speaks of people
Speaker 5: in revolt, and his stories are so grim that the
Speaker 5: dismal swamp of race hatred must be where they live.
Speaker 5: Not one act of understanding and sympathy comes to pass
Speaker 5: in the entire work.
Speaker 2: And that was just the first paragraph. Mind you, dang,
Speaker 2: did they ever squash the beef? It doesn't appear so
Speaker 2: their eyes were watching. God went out of print shortly
Speaker 2: after its release in nineteen thirty seven and didn't get
Speaker 2: reprinted until nineteen seventy eight. Many believe that happened because
Speaker 2: of Zora's refusal to participate in the racial uplift movement
Speaker 2: championed by W. E. B. Du Bois, and in nineteen
Speaker 2: thirty three essay titled the Negro College du Boys appears
Speaker 2: to throw a shot at those of Zora's ilk.
Speaker 3: He writes, why was.
Speaker 4: It that the renaissance of literature which began among negroes
Speaker 4: ten years ago has never taken real and lasting route.
Speaker 4: It was because it was a transplanted and exotic thing.
Speaker 4: It was a literature written for the benefit of white
Speaker 4: people and at the behest of white readers, and started
Speaker 4: out privately from the white point of view. It never
Speaker 4: had a real Negro constituency, and it did not grow
Speaker 4: out of the inmost heart and frank experience of Negros.
Speaker 4: On such an artificial basis, no real literature can grow.
Speaker 2: Zora continued to publish some essays, but ran into money
Speaker 2: and health problems and died in nineteen sixty after a
Speaker 2: series of strokes. Right moved to Paris in the late
Speaker 2: nineteen forties and eventually became a citizen of France. He
Speaker 2: published dozens of novels, essays, and other nonfiction works well
Speaker 2: into the late nineteen fifties until dying also in nineteen sixty,
Speaker 2: due to heart related problems. It's interesting that they both
Speaker 2: died in nineteen sixty of heart problems.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there were twin flames.
Speaker 2: No, but yeah, so, like I don't know how much
Speaker 2: you know about like Dora's life after the hollow and issues,
Speaker 2: But she died like penniless and was buried in an
Speaker 2: unmarked grave, and Alice Walker had to kind of rediscover
Speaker 2: her for the public right, and that's how her book
Speaker 2: came back into print. Because she wasn't just beefing with Langston.
Speaker 2: And Langston tried to reach out to Zora some more,
Speaker 2: and she just would not speak to him anymore. She
Speaker 2: wasn't just beefing with like say, she wasn't just beefing
Speaker 2: with Richard right, and she was beef wood to boys
Speaker 2: like she had all these people who she was just
Speaker 2: like opposites of. And I say that her legacy hadn't
Speaker 2: been ruined, but for Alice Walker, we.
Speaker 3: Might've just like not known who she is.
Speaker 2: So I don't know, maybe her legacy could have been
Speaker 2: for her friend or just like erase maybe is a
Speaker 2: better a better way to phrase it, because there were
Speaker 2: those decades after she died that people really weren't checking
Speaker 2: for her for her work, even being buried on my grave,
Speaker 2: you know, just kind of like the disregard for her
Speaker 2: as a person, let alone an artist and a writer.
Speaker 2: But I do think, like it is fun to see
Speaker 2: these reviews coming out, right, I like when the beef
Speaker 2: is generative?
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3: Give me some art, Give me some.
Speaker 2: Art to to showcase the beef.
Speaker 1: You want the distract.
Speaker 3: I want to distract, don't tweet.
Speaker 1: I have something more substantial.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to know that you've thought about this,
Speaker 2: that you considered the other person's point of view and
Speaker 2: you think it's dead wrong and you think they live
Speaker 2: in a racist swamp.
Speaker 1: That dismal one girl. So at the time, this was happening.
Speaker 1: Zora had her stature. She wasn't. She didn't have that
Speaker 1: grade of a stature at that point where she was
Speaker 1: beefing with Richard Wright.
Speaker 2: I think it depends on the audience, right, So the
Speaker 2: other Harlem Renaissance writers, mostly the men, they didn't like
Speaker 2: what she was doing. As I said, the white audiences
Speaker 2: loved her book, you know what I'm saying, it loved it.
Speaker 2: It was Charlotte's stuff really until she signed it back
Speaker 2: to Zora nel Hurston. Such a strange agreement. But so
Speaker 2: white audiences liked it, and then the black Harlem Renaissance
Speaker 2: men didn't like it because I think they're like more
Speaker 2: mission driven, you know, like we're gonna make this work
Speaker 2: that is going towards this greater good of people realizing
Speaker 2: black people's humanity. And I think we see a lot
Speaker 2: of that now. Like I said, there's always the same
Speaker 2: conversations go on and on. It's like, oh, are you
Speaker 2: writing to better the condition of black people or are
Speaker 2: you just creating art? And like sometimes people do get
Speaker 2: frustrated with people who are like kind of a racial.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think in a way, you know, the
Speaker 1: racial uplift work you can also argue that work in
Speaker 1: that vein is made for white audiences too, because we're
Speaker 1: trying to convince them our our humanity. We're not trying to,
Speaker 1: for the most part, convince other black people of our humanity.
Speaker 2: I think it's probably fifty to fifty because these people
Speaker 2: were very close to slavery, right, so you had a relative,
Speaker 2: most likely that you knew had been enslaved. So if
Speaker 2: you've been told that you are less than, you're subhuman,
Speaker 2: you're not as smart, You're gonna believe that on a
Speaker 2: certain level too. So I think the even if the
Speaker 2: people weren't like, you know, running out to go read
Speaker 2: a du boy's essay, they knew that there was this
Speaker 2: important black man who wore a sue and kutacral good
Speaker 2: and went to Harvard and taught at Atlanta University.
Speaker 3: So I think it was kind.
Speaker 2: Of twofold, like, hey, black people, you are somebody, and
Speaker 2: hey white people were just as good too, type of thing.
Speaker 2: And I do think that is kind of like what
Speaker 2: we see now, Like when I watch a Blackish, I'm like,
Speaker 2: this is for white people, but then it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: you see like this black family, now all of them
Speaker 2: are mixed for real, that's a different subjects. Family.
Speaker 1: Let's stay on track here.
Speaker 3: On you know ABC.
Speaker 2: They live in a nice house, they got good jobs,
Speaker 2: everybody looking nice, hair done, nails done everything, They got
Speaker 2: cute clothes, they get along for the most part. It's
Speaker 2: like the representation of it all like aspirational, Like you know,
Speaker 2: I ain't lively like that. So I think it's showing
Speaker 2: like white people that like, oh, white people are human too,
Speaker 2: which is like such a low bar. But then also
Speaker 2: like black people like, oh, this is what you could have,
Speaker 2: this what you could be, this is what your kids
Speaker 2: could be.
Speaker 1: So do you know what white audiences said about the
Speaker 1: beefs and how they felt about it? Because the thing
Speaker 1: that I'm thinking here is how if you're being a
Speaker 1: respectable negro, you know, you'll hear a lot of people
Speaker 1: say you can't let them see us doing all this,
Speaker 1: like all this in fighting, like we need to be unified.
Speaker 1: We have all these other problems that are against all
Speaker 1: of us together as a race, and we're doing all
Speaker 1: of this in fighting. Do you know, because Zora had
Speaker 1: a lot of white people in her audience, what they
Speaker 1: said about these beefs she was having, was she like
Speaker 1: were her audiences like back up, off my girl, or
Speaker 1: were they like, oh, look at the blacks, they really
Speaker 1: are on civilized.
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I don't know about the general public.
Speaker 2: I know, like the people that were in like the
Speaker 2: Black People's Business and the Harlem Renaissance, like Charlotte and
Speaker 2: carl And I think it was just kind of like
Speaker 2: camps and I'm speaking mostly to like her beef with
Speaker 2: Lenston Hughes, the white people that she was like in
Speaker 2: like direct community with kind of just took her side.
Speaker 2: She was more well known than Langston at the time,
Speaker 2: you know, he was younger, so they took her side.
Speaker 2: I don't know what the general public was saying, but
Speaker 2: that is a good question because that is a common sentiment,
Speaker 2: like we.
Speaker 3: Doing stuff in front of white people.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it would have been interesting to see like
Speaker 2: full blown pieces of art from Zora and Richard coming
Speaker 2: out of the beef. One thing about Uncle Tom's children.
Speaker 2: It did get kind of like, oh, this is too sentimental,
Speaker 2: Like that was like not only Zora Neilhrson was saying that,
Speaker 2: And so then he wrote Native Son, which was supposed
Speaker 2: to be like his serious work. So he did kind
Speaker 2: of respond in that way and kind of changed his approach.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I love a generative beef. Like I want
Speaker 2: to listen to hit him up and who shatya. I
Speaker 2: want to dissect the lyrics, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I want to like get in the booth. I don't
Speaker 2: want this yap yap right.
Speaker 1: Because it shortens the distance between us and who the
Speaker 1: artist was because we seeing them angry, that's the side
Speaker 1: of them we might not have seen before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you can be angry in the art, but
Speaker 2: when you're just being unhinged, it's like you're not being thoughtful,
Speaker 2: You're not being an artist, You're just talking your shit,
Speaker 2: which you know you're human, so I guess. But I
Speaker 2: think it's always worth interesting to like put the beef
Speaker 2: in the art, write your thoughts down, whatever your medium is,
Speaker 2: if it's paint, paint the beef. This is your PSA
Speaker 2: to them people.
Speaker 1: But I think it's cool too because it really is criticism,
Speaker 1: you know. Like the quotes were harsh, you know, I
Speaker 1: do think that they were harsh, you know, and there
Speaker 1: are other black people who care about Zora and WB
Speaker 1: du bois to saying these things, and other upstanding people
Speaker 1: are saying these things they have right, they have weight,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think, you know, you really have
Speaker 1: to be considerate about the things you say when you
Speaker 1: have rank in the black community. It's like, is it
Speaker 1: really do I really need to say this out loud
Speaker 1: in public?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: What is the service that I'm doing for people? But
Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, I care a lot
Speaker 1: about arts criticism as an arts critic myself. Like, I
Speaker 1: think it is very healthy to have these conversations in public,
Speaker 1: and it's nice to see people who were really thinking
Speaker 1: about this and who were afraid to share their opinions
Speaker 1: on it and not just to be like okay representation,
Speaker 1: like okay, like I have something to say about it,
Speaker 1: not really feeling it, and I feel like my opinion
Speaker 1: has some substance behind it, you know, it's not just
Speaker 1: floating on thin air, and I want to say it
Speaker 1: because it needs to be sid So I appreciate both
Speaker 1: sides of that and that way too, and it's refreshing
Speaker 1: and I think healthy to see that kind of criticism,
Speaker 1: that kind of back and forth happening between black artists.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely gives people like me who like to
Speaker 2: be in the archives something to do in like some tea,
Speaker 2: some history. But it also shows that hystorical figures were
Speaker 2: people with emotions, which I feel like sometimes we forget,
Speaker 2: like there are people with emotions. They weren't just these
Speaker 2: like great men, great women at all times. You know
Speaker 2: they're in relationship with people. And when you're in relationship
Speaker 2: with people, you're gonna be beefing, you know. So diving
Speaker 2: through the archives, you'll find many examples of your fased beefing.
Speaker 2: It's normal.
Speaker 3: You're probably beefing with three people at this very moment.
Speaker 1: Speak for yourself.
Speaker 2: So while it might make us uncomfortable or disappointed to
Speaker 2: see it happening in real time with artists today, remember
Speaker 2: that beef has this place in storytelling too. Now it's
Speaker 2: time for roll credits, the segment where we give credit
Speaker 2: to a person, place, or thing that we've encountered.
Speaker 3: During the week eves. Who are what would you like
Speaker 3: to give credit to?
Speaker 1: I like to give credit to hiking. I really like hiking.
Speaker 1: I like being outside and fresh air. And there have
Speaker 1: been some really nice, sunny, crisp cool but not you know,
Speaker 1: not two cold days and I've been able to spend
Speaker 1: them outside. It gives me lots of time to think.
Speaker 1: I find that I've been getting very, very emotional on
Speaker 1: hikes lately because they remind me of things that make
Speaker 1: me emotional. But I'm appreciative of it. I'm like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I was crying the metal yesterday because I like, nobody's here,
Speaker 1: so nobody can see me cry. Like this is nice.
Speaker 1: Like you know, I think crying can be a very
Speaker 1: insular thing too, and it's like often done indoors. So
Speaker 1: it's nice to be outside and be like, Okay, look
Speaker 1: at all this around me, look at what I'm still
Speaker 1: grateful for. So I appreciate the space that literally being
Speaker 1: outside the space gives me to like come into my
Speaker 1: full being and it's a good time.
Speaker 4: I like that.
Speaker 2: I will give credit to reading books out of order.
Speaker 2: I just started doing this and because you know, I'm
Speaker 2: on my nonfiction wave right now. And so I was
Speaker 2: reading this book and I was trying to read it
Speaker 2: cover to cover and I was just like, I'm not
Speaker 2: feeling this chapter. So I skipped it and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: what chapter will I be lucky? And so I looked
Speaker 2: at the table context I was like, this sounds like
Speaker 2: an interesting chapter.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna read this.
Speaker 1: And now was it a book of essays?
Speaker 2: No, it was like a historical thing, but it was
Speaker 2: kind of going like too deep in the weeds on
Speaker 2: some things, and I was like, I do not care,
Speaker 2: and I didn't like feel like, oh, because I didn't
Speaker 2: know about this treaty, that I am missing out on
Speaker 2: knowing something that happened in the nineties. Personally, so I
Speaker 2: want to give credit to reading books out of order,
Speaker 2: maybe just picking a chapter or two and getting what
Speaker 2: you need for the book and not feeling bullied by
Speaker 2: reading a bunch of stuff that you don't care about.
Speaker 1: I'm here for you reading as you would like to.
Speaker 1: But I must say a response that I would be
Speaker 1: very uncomfortable with closing the book and being like I
Speaker 1: finished it.
Speaker 3: I would say I finished it. You would just write
Speaker 3: some chapters.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, okay, yeah, you're announcing this too no
Speaker 1: to myself. You know, I'm just saying, like, oh, I
Speaker 1: finished that book. I have marked that off the list.
Speaker 1: If I missed parts of it, it would just be
Speaker 1: a personal thing, not anything to like be reconciled with
Speaker 1: anybody else. Who's what my patrons and my patrons don't
Speaker 1: need to know that I didn't finish the book. Did
Speaker 1: you read all of it?
Speaker 3: Did you want to do some research?
Speaker 1: Nigga? But that's all. I like that though, because you know,
Speaker 1: you know what you need and what you want when
Speaker 1: you want it.
Speaker 3: See y'all next week.
Speaker 1: Bye y'all.
Speaker 2: Hi Ma.
Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send
Speaker 1: us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show.
Speaker 1: Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the
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