WEBVTT - Which One Of Y’all Want Beef? 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.120 On theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:22.560 As we're already into the third month of twenty twenty four, 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:26.079 this year has started off with a bang, A very 0:00:26.160 --> 0:00:29.720 chaotic year in general, but for black storytelling in particular. 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.400 Twenty twenty four got Hands. But you think the black 0:00:32.440 --> 0:00:34.159 storytelling realm has been chaotic too? 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 I mean, who can forget Kat Williams stirring the pot 0:00:37.760 --> 0:00:41.639 during his Club Chashe interview in the beginning of January, You. 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:44.199 Having an unnatural allegiance to losers. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:45.040 It's not like you. 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.400 He had the Internet going wild with all the allegations. 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:51.680 Epitome of standing on big business. 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.960 Then, near the end of January, the h town hottie 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.440 Megan thee Stallion released a single Hits, where she took 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:00.160 shots at unnamed ops. 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:03.440 Unnamed but one rapper did decide to respond. 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:07.880 What they be saying about hit dogs anyway? Nicki Mina's 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.280 responded via tweet, Instagram lives, and a radio app called 0:01:11.280 --> 0:01:15.800 station Head, And finally, in a song titled Bigfoot. 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:18.399 The girls are fighting in the words of the late 0:01:18.480 --> 0:01:19.160 Rodney King. 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.959 Can we all get along? Can we get along? 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.479 It's looking like the answer is no. And with Kat 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.360 coming for Cedric the Entertainer and Steve. 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:34.520 Harvey, Ricky Smalley and Ludacris, Kevin hart Yup and Tiffany 0:01:34.560 --> 0:01:36.000 Hattish everybody. 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.240 Basically people were saying he was hating on them, trying 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.600 to bring them down, But I don't think that's quite it. 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:44.280 You don't think Cat's a hater. I know you got 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.240 your pH D player hater degree. 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:49.560 I mean, I do think he'd be hating a little bit, 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:51.880 but as we discussed in our episode, I like to 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:57.040 thank my haters. Offering principal criticism isn't hating. And when 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.720 someone like Kat Williams, who is objectively funnier than comedians 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:03.240 like Steve Harvey and Cedric the Entertainer, has comments about 0:02:03.240 --> 0:02:07.080 how they carry themselves as comics, I think that ventures 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.960 into Hayden's first cousin beef, which I happen to have 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:13.079 a bachelor's. 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:16.560 In beef, is nothing new, but it's particularly raw this year. 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.560 Yes, and with Meghan and Niki, one of the main 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:22.040 talking points I saw was that Nicki Minaj was going 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:24.160 to ruin her legacy by trying to go back and 0:02:24.200 --> 0:02:26.720 forth with Meghan, and while I am te Meghan one 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.720 hundred percent. I don't know if that's actually true if 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:33.520 we look at past beef's in the storytelling realm. People 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.720 love to rehash beef, sure, but the few artists find 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.160 themselves in rarely overshadow their most important works. Take Tupac 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:43.280 versus Biggie, for example, their beef had a fatal ending. 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.440 But I've never heard anyone claim that their legacies have 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:50.079 been ruined from beefing or Spike Lee coming for Tyler Perry. 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.280 When folks still a retrospective on Spike's career, I don't 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:55.200 think there will be much hand ringing about him beefing 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:59.760 with Medea's creator. The beef filmmakers, poets, musicians, and authors 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.400 get into maybe interesting like a footnote in their legacy, 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:06.960 but from what I've witnessed, it doesn't completely ruin the 0:03:06.960 --> 0:03:11.280 public's perception of them over time. I'm Katie and I'm Eves, 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:14.520 and I got a question, which one of y'all won't beef? 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:23.720 So, Hayten and beef In are first cousins, Yes, I'd 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.560 say so, So how would you define beef or beef in? 0:03:27.320 --> 0:03:33.400 I define beef as a mutual feud among peers or 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:36.320 near peers. So there's like no way I could be 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:40.160 beefing with Oprah. I could offer some principal critiques which 0:03:40.200 --> 0:03:43.680 I have, or I could be hate no, no, but 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:46.520 I can't beef with her. We're just not in the 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:47.480 same stratosphere. 0:03:47.840 --> 0:03:50.920 Okay, So per your definition, it takes two to tango 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.320 and they have to be on the same level or 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:54.480 they'reabout right. 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:58.480 So her bff, Gail King, could be beef with her, 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.680 I can't beef with her. And when you look at 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.480 the history of black storytelling, you'll find plenty of equally 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:09.320 yoked beef. Because I'm a bookish gal, we'll focus on 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.600 beef between writers, specifically Zora Neilhurston and other writers of 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:25.960 the Harlem Renaissance. Part one, Zora Neil Hurston Versus Langston Hughes. 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:32.000 Let's venture back to post World War One America. It 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:38.839 was the dawn of the Jazz Age, and as music, art, 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:43.120 and literature converge. With this great migration, the Harlem Renaissance 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:47.640 is born, an explosion of cultural, social, and intellectual and 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:52.920 artistic expression rooted in the Black experience. Two literary stars 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.719 who became synonymous with the Harlem Renaissance are none other 0:04:55.880 --> 0:05:00.960 than Zora Neilhurston and Lenggston Hughes and nineteen twenty seven, 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.960 the two had a chance encounter outside a mobile Alabama 0:05:04.000 --> 0:05:07.440 train station. Zora was in town to interview Kadjo Lewis, 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.560 the last living former slave born in Africa. Langston was 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:13.480 in Alabama giving readings and doing some research. The two 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.440 decided to go on a tour of the Deep South. 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:17.960 During their road trip, they learned they shared a love 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.760 for black folklore, everyday Black Folks, an adventure. In her 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:25.039 nineteen eighty nine essay Turning into Love some thoughts on 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:28.200 surviving and meeting Langston Hughes, Alice Walker says of Zora 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.719 and Langston's friendship, it is so easy to see how 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:33.880 and why they would love each other. Each was to 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:36.600 the other an affirming example of what black people could 0:05:36.600 --> 0:05:40.920 be like. Wow, crazy, creative, spontaneous, at ease with who 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:42.200 they are, and funny. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.279 Damn. I really don't want their friendship to end now. 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.560 They did maintain a close friendship for many years and 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:52.760 even had the same patron, Charlotte Mason. Patroon basically a 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.839 rich white person who supported artists financially, and that's nice 0:05:55.839 --> 0:06:01.160 of Charlotte I guess well, Charlotte did give both Zora 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:05.320 and Langston healthy monthly stipends. She was still pretty racist though. 0:06:05.640 --> 0:06:09.400 She believed African Americans and Native Americans were quote younger 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:13.440 races unspoiled by white civilization, and that American culture could 0:06:13.480 --> 0:06:17.279 be re energized by exposing it to primitive ones. 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:19.440 That was very paternalistic of her. 0:06:19.960 --> 0:06:22.600 Yeah, it turns out Charlotte was central and Dora and 0:06:22.680 --> 0:06:27.000 Langston's friendship, and they're falling out. She demanded complete devotion 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.600 from the black folks she was sponsoring. She even controlled 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.040 Zora's work to the point that Zora wasn't allowed to 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.600 show anyone else without Charlotte's permission. That being said, Zora 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:37.799 and Lanston did produce some of their most enduring works 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.400 during the time that she was sponsoring them. But here's 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:47.960 where the beef comes in, and it all starts as 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:53.040 a play called mule Bone. Zora and Langston began working 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.839 on mule Bone in March nineteen thirty. The play was 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.040 based on a folk tale Zor her during one of 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:00.719 her anthropological trips to Florida. 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:03.400 The pair dedicated the play to Louise. 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:07.280 Thompson, their typist sounds good so far, so by June 0:07:07.520 --> 0:07:10.080 the play was almost done. Zora went away for the summer, 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.360 took her notes, and promised to return in the fall 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.000 so they could finish the play. But when she came back, 0:07:15.280 --> 0:07:18.800 she would not return Langston's cause. Zora felt that Langston 0:07:18.840 --> 0:07:22.000 wanted to list Louise Thompson The Typist as a third 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.640 contributor and was not down with that at all. Some 0:07:25.880 --> 0:07:29.080 historians believed Zora was jealous of Langston and Louise's relationship, 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:32.040 but I don't know, I don't know. Also, during this time, 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.960 Langston was in the process of severing his relationship with Charlotte. 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:37.760 Ooh, I knew she was gonna come back in it. 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.880 Yeah, Charlotte was controlling Langston too. According to Langston Hughes 0:07:41.960 --> 0:07:45.760 biographer Faith Barry, Charlotte chose the books Langston could read, 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:48.720 the music he can listen to, and the plays he 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.640 could watch. So when Langston got out of his relationship 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:55.600 with Charlotte, she preyed on his downfall and took Zora's 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.520 side in her dispute with Langston. Some historians think Zora 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:01.440 was trying to protect her relationship with Charlotte by shunning 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:05.520 Hughes because while Langston cut himself off from Charlotte's purse strings, 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:08.560 Zora remained close to her till Charlotte died in nineteen 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:09.120 forty six. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:12.200 Zora wasn't trying to jeopardize that bag, y'all. 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:15.680 And wasn't, so she's not communicating with Langston right, And 0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:19.240 in October of nineteen thirty she submits mule Bone for copyright, 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:22.360 listing only herself as the author. 0:08:22.640 --> 0:08:24.360 Zora Girl Yes. 0:08:24.720 --> 0:08:27.840 And in January of nineteen thirty one, Langston finds out 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.560 that a copy of mule Bone, listing only hersu's name, 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:33.760 was sent to Gilpen Players, an all black theater company 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:38.720 in Cleveland, for their consideration. I know he was mad, big, mad, furious, 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.040 I rate, but Zora wasn't the one who sent the 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:41.960 play to Gilpen. 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:43.679 It was actually Carl van Vechten. 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.240 Zora had sent him a copy and he said it 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.959 to Gilpen without telling her. During all this kerfuffle, Langston 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.520 applied for a copyright under both their names. Gilpin wanted 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.360 to stage the play, but it still neededn't work. There 0:08:56.440 --> 0:08:58.960 was some back and forth. Zora refused to allow productions 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.440 to play. Then she authorized it under the condition that 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:04.480 she could work with Langston on changes. Then she sent 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:06.720 Langston a letter saying he didn't write any of the play. 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:09.320 So with all that drama, Gilpen decided not to go 0:09:09.360 --> 0:09:11.800 forward with the play, and Langston Hughes's copy of Meal 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.280 Bone in his papers at Yale. He pinned a handwritten 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:18.280 note summarizing it down with him Zora Ammuel Bone. The 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.320 notation reads, this play was never done because the authors 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:21.880 fell out. 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:24.960 Dang, so no one ever got to see Meal Bone. 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:25.920 Oh no, they did. 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:27.880 It hit the stage for the first time in nineteen 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.400 ninety one, over sixty years after it was written. It 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:33.920 was met with mostly negative reviews and the consensus that 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:36.640 if Langston and Zora would have finished the play together 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:37.959 then it would have been much better. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.160 Wow, the beef really impacted the art. That's tragic. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.920 And while a copyright issue was the center of Zora 0:09:43.960 --> 0:09:47.920 and Langston's beef, ideological differences fueled Zora Neil Herstin's and 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:51.239 Richard writes beef and they did not mince words. 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:53.880 More on that after the Break. 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:05.640 Part two, zor Neil Hurston versus Richard Wright and other 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:11.760 respectable negroes to understand why Zora Neilhurston and Richer Wright 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.960 had beef. You have to understand some of the contexts 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:20.040 of the Harlem Renaissance. The Harlem Renaissance was an artistic 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:24.520 flowering of the New Negro movement. Its participants celebrated their 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:28.640 African heritage and embraced self expression, rejecting long standing and 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.200 often degrading stereotypes. Richard Wright wrote what you might call 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.840 protest novels, works that were overtly political and interested in 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:39.400 sending a capital M message. Richard Wright used his role 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.000 as a Harlem Renaissance writer to reveal the humanity of 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.640 black people through the strength of arts and letters. And 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:48.280 Zor Neil Hurston was explicitly not on that she wrote 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.480 for the sake of writing, rather than for a greater 0:10:50.600 --> 0:10:53.959 political good. Some even questioned her standing as a Harlem 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:57.520 Renaissance writer because of her flat refusal to politicize her 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.520 early writings. Richard Wright and other writer's acute Zora of 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.560 using African American stereotypes in her writing to pander to 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:04.680 white audiences. 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.600 That is an evergreen accusation. I've read some of Zora's work. 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:10.400 What did Richard say about it? Like, what did he 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:11.120 find offensive? 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:13.640 So the back and forth between them starts after Their 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:15.120 Eyes Were Watching God is published. 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.040 Give a quick synopsis for folks who aren't familiar with 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:18.400 the book. 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.400 Sure Their Eyes is written using a Southern dialect. It 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:25.760 tells the story of Janie, who, after childhood hardships and 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.880 difficult marriages, finds the love she seeks in a young 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:38.760 blue singer named Teacake. The two live happily until Jane 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.800 shoots him after he attacks her. Richard wrote a scathing 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.640 review that appeared in The New Masses on October fifth, 0:11:46.720 --> 0:11:47.640 nineteen thirty seven. 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:52.160 In part, he says, miss Herston voluntarily continues in her 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.000 novel the tradition which was forced upon the Negro in 0:11:55.040 --> 0:11:58.439 the theater, That is the menstrual technique that makes the 0:11:58.760 --> 0:12:02.640 white folks laugh. Her characters eat and laugh and cry 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.359 and work and kill. They swing like a pendulum eternally 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.439 in that safe and narrow orbit in which America likes 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.680 to see the Negro live between laughter and tears. 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.320 It was really bold of Richard to say that in 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:18.280 public in that way. 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.040 Yeah, I like they was going at each other, But 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:22.679 he didn't step there. He goes on to. 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:26.000 Say, the sensory sweep of her novel carries no theme, 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.520 no message, no thought. In the main, her novel is 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.280 not addressed to the Negro but to a white audience 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:36.440 whose chauvinistic tastes she knows how to satisfy. She exploits 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.720 that phase of Negro life which is quaint, the phase 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.320 which evokes a piteous smile on the lips of the 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:43.480 superior race. 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.520 That's really hard hitting, honestly, and that's a pretty big accusation. 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:52.920 It was like a very eloquent read. 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.280 Yes, a read I feel like read is putting it 0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:02.200 very lightly though, and other black writers agreed with Richard Wright, 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.920 including Ralph Ellison, W. E. B. 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:09.239 Du Bois, Alan Locke, and Otis Ferguson. But white audiences 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.560 reviewed the book positively, which. 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:13.800 I'm sure Richard saw as evidence that his take on 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:14.360 it was right. 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:17.960 Yeah, but not only him. Remember Charlotte Mason, Zora's patron. 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.640 Mm hmm, how could I forget? What about her? 0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:21.760 Well? 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:25.760 As I said, she was really controlling in Racist She 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.040 got Zora to sign an agreement that stated that all 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.720 the material that Zora wrote would be the legal property 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.959 of Charlotte, and Zora could only use it with written permission. 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.960 In Yearning Race, Gender, and Cultural Politics, Bell Hooks asserts 0:13:40.000 --> 0:13:42.800 that it is difficult to believe that Herston was blind 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.280 to the cultural imperialism the white supremacy of her sponsor. 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.160 She goes on to argue that because of Charlotte Mason's 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:53.280 financial support of herson, she enforced specific themes and subjects 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:54.360 onto Hurston's work. 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:58.440 So Charlotte was getting Zora to include the stereotypical depictions 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.800 of black folks that Richard White sound offensive. 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:02.240 That's the thought process. 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.400 But I say, even if it wasn't explicit, Zora knew 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:09.040 that the lady had her views right, and she knew 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.719 she needed money, so preemptively added some stuff that she 0:14:12.800 --> 0:14:14.600 knew would reinforce Charlotte's worldview. 0:14:14.679 --> 0:14:17.000 Mm hm, that would make sense. What does Zorra have 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:18.480 to say about all of this anything? 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:19.200 Sure? 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:19.520 Did? 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:23.040 She said, I am not interested in the race problem, 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.120 but I am interested in the problems of individuals, white 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:27.160 ones and black ones. 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:29.640 I guess that goes back to what you said about 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:31.040 her writing being apolitical. 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:31.960 Yeah. 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.880 She criticized what she described as quote race pride and 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.160 race consciousness, describing it as a thing to be a board, 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:41.840 stating suppose. 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.800 A Negro does something really magnificent and not glory, not 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.480 in the benefit to mankind, but in the fact that 0:14:47.520 --> 0:14:50.520 the doer was a Negro. Must I not also go 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:52.840 hang my head in shame when a member of my 0:14:53.000 --> 0:14:56.280 race does something execrable. The white race did not go 0:14:56.320 --> 0:15:00.520 into a laboratory and invent incandescent light. That was edison. 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.800 If you are under the impression that every white man 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:06.920 is an Edison, just look around a bit. If you 0:15:06.960 --> 0:15:10.080 have the idea that every Negro is a carver, you 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.800 have better take off plenty of time to do your searching. 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:15.360 What do you say about that? 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:19.840 It's a little bit troubling. In some ways, She's not wrong, 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.040 you know what I'm saying, Like, yes, we are all 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.160 made differently. We all don't have the same paths in life. 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:27.960 We all don't, you know, have the same roles, and 0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:34.200 we do different things. That's true. But I think this 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.480 kind of sentiment and response to race pride and race 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.800 consciousness in a way ignores the reason behind race pride 0:15:41.840 --> 0:15:43.680 and race consciousness, which is that we've been through a 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:47.800 lot of shit. So a little dismissive in ways. But 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:49.920 I'm not gonna say I don't feel where she's coming from, 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:53.000 because you know, we take the ups with the downs. 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.360 That's a fair point across the board. I just think 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.000 it's a little misplaced in this instance. 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:02.000 I really interested to see what Zora Neil Hurston thinks 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.200 of her like standing in American culture now, because she 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:09.440 is like lumped into all these Harlem Renaissance writers who, 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.520 for the most part, were on that race pride stuff, 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.520 even though she wasn't. When I first learned about Zora 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:17.160 Neil Heherston in high school, as far as like her 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.040 books and stuff, I think their eyes were watching God. 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:20.840 It wasn't even a sign. 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:22.960 It was like, you can read these five books, and 0:16:22.960 --> 0:16:24.360 like her book was the only black one, so I 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.720 read that one, but the teacher wasn't like, oh, zorineel 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:30.280 Hurston was like against race pride, you know what I mean? 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:32.440 And I think like at that time it was pretty 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.640 well known that she was kind of like a contrarian 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:40.120 in that regard. But I think as a contrarian you 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:42.840 got to be contrary. You can't agree with these niggas, 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:44.960 even if you kind of do what do you mean? 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.840 I think that was her role in the Harlem Renissance 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.240 was to be contrary to Richard Wright, to W. E. B. 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:54.560 Du Bois to like say these things like I'm not black, 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.720 I'm Zora. You know she said it first. Okay, sorry, Yeah, 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:00.760 I think that's a fair point. And even if it 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:03.880 wasn't the case where she was specifically trying to be contrarian, 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:06.280 it's like she wasn't the only person who was not 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:09.000 trying to be in the race consciousness lane at the time, 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.320 Like there were other people who were writing who wanted 0:17:11.359 --> 0:17:13.639 to be more focused on like historical fact rather than 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.640 writing things that were about uplifting the race, rather than 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:18.200 writing things that were about being. 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:22.520 Race positive specifically. So she wasn't alone in thinking this way, 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.200 because I think Drusilla Dungee Houston was writing at the time, 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:28.000 and she also was on this way where she was 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.560 talking about historical thing and the roots of where black 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:35.240 people came from, and she shared kind of similar sentiments. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.720 She was still in the category of racial uplift, but 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:42.639 also in some ways said things that were derogatory a 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:46.159 little bit about other writers in the Harlem Renaissance because 0:17:46.200 --> 0:17:49.480 of how much they focused on art as opposed to 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.600 educating people about the real black history. 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:58.000 Basically, Okay, because I know Zora got into it with 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.320 w Duvois and you know, this is like a little 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:03.320 bit after the Harlem Renaissance, but saying that the brown 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:08.520 versus Board decision like wasn't good basically, and that you know, 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.159 y'all so focused on race, y'all so focused on like 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.480 getting close to white people, which is a criticism of 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:19.800 the Civil rights movement and desegregation. And yeah, but I 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:22.080 don't know, I really do think that Bell Hooks is 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:26.639 onto something like having this white woman who is sponsoring 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:30.080 your life, like you wouldn't be able to really like 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:34.280 write these things. And she's racist and you know that, Yeah, 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:37.840 you know, she's racist. She thinks you're primitive, and you know, 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:41.679 be next to you. It's giving get out, like you know, 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.679 like you use some of you to reinvigorate herself. 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:46.560 So I do think that played a part in it. 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.480 And it kind of goes back to our episode the 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.400 Black Struggle Industrial Complex, like when you have like this 0:18:53.760 --> 0:18:57.199 taste maker in your head kind of like controlling the 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:01.560 art you put out. You're gonna put little goofy things 0:19:01.600 --> 0:19:04.320 in there to appease them, you know, Like they're saying 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.240 that she used all these stereotypes, and she used the 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.400 Southern dialect, which when I read, their eyes were watching God. 0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:12.680 I like the Southern dialect. I never read a book 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:14.480 like that before. But I know some people were like, 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.480 I literally cannot read this because I can't. 0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:18.919 Catch the flow of the dialogue. 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.240 So I do think Charlotte played a big role in 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.679 like what she spoke out against and the art that 0:19:24.760 --> 0:19:27.080 she put out. But I mean I could see both sides. 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:28.919 I can see why people were beefing with her, and 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:31.800 I can see why she was like, f ya, I'm 0:19:31.800 --> 0:19:32.119 gonna do. 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:32.840 I'm gonna do. 0:19:32.880 --> 0:19:36.800 Me and Charlotte, Yeah, me and my girl. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:40.800 Did Sora ever review Richard's work. 0:19:40.920 --> 0:19:44.480 Yeah, and she came swinging too. In April of nineteen 0:19:44.520 --> 0:19:47.600 thirty eight, she reviewed Uncle Tom's Children, which are novella 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:49.480 set in the Deep South that focus on the lives 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.959 of black folks during the post slavery era and their 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:54.000 resistance to white racism and oppression. 0:19:54.640 --> 0:19:58.760 Sora writes, this is a book about hatreds Mister Wright 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.520 serves noticed by his title that he speaks of people 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.359 in revolt, and his stories are so grim that the 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:07.480 dismal swamp of race hatred must be where they live. 0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.320 Not one act of understanding and sympathy comes to pass 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:12.240 in the entire work. 0:20:13.000 --> 0:20:15.960 And that was just the first paragraph. Mind you, dang, 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:18.800 did they ever squash the beef? It doesn't appear so 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:21.600 their eyes were watching. God went out of print shortly 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:24.600 after its release in nineteen thirty seven and didn't get 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:28.800 reprinted until nineteen seventy eight. Many believe that happened because 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.600 of Zora's refusal to participate in the racial uplift movement 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.520 championed by W. E. B. Du Bois, and in nineteen 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:38.000 thirty three essay titled the Negro College du Boys appears 0:20:38.040 --> 0:20:40.160 to throw a shot at those of Zora's ilk. 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.920 He writes, why was. 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:46.240 It that the renaissance of literature which began among negroes 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.560 ten years ago has never taken real and lasting route. 0:20:50.119 --> 0:20:52.960 It was because it was a transplanted and exotic thing. 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.080 It was a literature written for the benefit of white 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.639 people and at the behest of white readers, and started 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.680 out privately from the white point of view. It never 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.280 had a real Negro constituency, and it did not grow 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:09.640 out of the inmost heart and frank experience of Negros. 0:21:10.160 --> 0:21:28.639 On such an artificial basis, no real literature can grow. 0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.280 Zora continued to publish some essays, but ran into money 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:39.720 and health problems and died in nineteen sixty after a 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.440 series of strokes. Right moved to Paris in the late 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:45.520