1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,120 Speaker 1: On theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 2 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: As we're already into the third month of twenty twenty four, 3 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,079 Speaker 2: this year has started off with a bang, A very 4 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: chaotic year in general, but for black storytelling in particular. 5 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: Twenty twenty four got Hands. But you think the black 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: storytelling realm has been chaotic too? 7 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: I mean, who can forget Kat Williams stirring the pot 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 2: during his Club Chashe interview in the beginning of January, You. 9 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: Having an unnatural allegiance to losers. 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 3: It's not like you. 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: He had the Internet going wild with all the allegations. 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 3: Epitome of standing on big business. 13 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 2: Then, near the end of January, the h town hottie 14 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: Megan thee Stallion released a single Hits, where she took 15 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 2: shots at unnamed ops. 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: Unnamed but one rapper did decide to respond. 17 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 2: What they be saying about hit dogs anyway? Nicki Mina's 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: responded via tweet, Instagram lives, and a radio app called 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: station Head, And finally, in a song titled Bigfoot. 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: The girls are fighting in the words of the late 21 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: Rodney King. 22 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:22,959 Speaker 4: Can we all get along? Can we get along? 23 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,479 Speaker 2: It's looking like the answer is no. And with Kat 24 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 2: coming for Cedric the Entertainer and Steve. 25 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: Harvey, Ricky Smalley and Ludacris, Kevin hart Yup and Tiffany 26 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: Hattish everybody. 27 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: Basically people were saying he was hating on them, trying 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 2: to bring them down, But I don't think that's quite it. 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 1: You don't think Cat's a hater. I know you got 30 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: your pH D player hater degree. 31 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 2: I mean, I do think he'd be hating a little bit, 32 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 2: but as we discussed in our episode, I like to 33 00:01:51,880 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: thank my haters. Offering principal criticism isn't hating. And when 34 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: someone like Kat Williams, who is objectively funnier than comedians 35 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: like Steve Harvey and Cedric the Entertainer, has comments about 36 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: how they carry themselves as comics, I think that ventures 37 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: into Hayden's first cousin beef, which I happen to have 38 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 2: a bachelor's. 39 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: In beef, is nothing new, but it's particularly raw this year. 40 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: Yes, and with Meghan and Niki, one of the main 41 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 2: talking points I saw was that Nicki Minaj was going 42 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,160 Speaker 2: to ruin her legacy by trying to go back and 43 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 2: forth with Meghan, and while I am te Meghan one 44 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 2: hundred percent. I don't know if that's actually true if 45 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: we look at past beef's in the storytelling realm. People 46 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: love to rehash beef, sure, but the few artists find 47 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: themselves in rarely overshadow their most important works. Take Tupac 48 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: versus Biggie, for example, their beef had a fatal ending. 49 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: But I've never heard anyone claim that their legacies have 50 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 2: been ruined from beefing or Spike Lee coming for Tyler Perry. 51 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 2: When folks still a retrospective on Spike's career, I don't 52 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: think there will be much hand ringing about him beefing 53 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: with Medea's creator. The beef filmmakers, poets, musicians, and authors 54 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,400 Speaker 2: get into maybe interesting like a footnote in their legacy, 55 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: but from what I've witnessed, it doesn't completely ruin the 56 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 2: public's perception of them over time. I'm Katie and I'm Eves, 57 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 2: and I got a question, which one of y'all won't beef? 58 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: So, Hayten and beef In are first cousins, Yes, I'd 59 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 1: say so, So how would you define beef or beef in? 60 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 2: I define beef as a mutual feud among peers or 61 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 2: near peers. So there's like no way I could be 62 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 2: beefing with Oprah. I could offer some principal critiques which 63 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: I have, or I could be hate no, no, but 64 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: I can't beef with her. We're just not in the 65 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:47,480 Speaker 2: same stratosphere. 66 00:03:47,840 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: Okay, So per your definition, it takes two to tango 67 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: and they have to be on the same level or 68 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: they'reabout right. 69 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 2: So her bff, Gail King, could be beef with her, 70 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,680 Speaker 2: I can't beef with her. And when you look at 71 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:05,480 Speaker 2: the history of black storytelling, you'll find plenty of equally 72 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: yoked beef. Because I'm a bookish gal, we'll focus on 73 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: beef between writers, specifically Zora Neilhurston and other writers of 74 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: the Harlem Renaissance. Part one, Zora Neil Hurston Versus Langston Hughes. 75 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 2: Let's venture back to post World War One America. It 76 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: was the dawn of the Jazz Age, and as music, art, 77 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: and literature converge. With this great migration, the Harlem Renaissance 78 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: is born, an explosion of cultural, social, and intellectual and 79 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 2: artistic expression rooted in the Black experience. Two literary stars 80 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: who became synonymous with the Harlem Renaissance are none other 81 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: than Zora Neilhurston and Lenggston Hughes and nineteen twenty seven, 82 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 2: the two had a chance encounter outside a mobile Alabama 83 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 2: train station. Zora was in town to interview Kadjo Lewis, 84 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: the last living former slave born in Africa. Langston was 85 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: in Alabama giving readings and doing some research. The two 86 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: decided to go on a tour of the Deep South. 87 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: During their road trip, they learned they shared a love 88 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 2: for black folklore, everyday Black Folks, an adventure. In her 89 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,039 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty nine essay Turning into Love some thoughts on 90 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: surviving and meeting Langston Hughes, Alice Walker says of Zora 91 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,719 Speaker 2: and Langston's friendship, it is so easy to see how 92 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: and why they would love each other. Each was to 93 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 2: the other an affirming example of what black people could 94 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 2: be like. Wow, crazy, creative, spontaneous, at ease with who 95 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 2: they are, and funny. 96 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: Damn. I really don't want their friendship to end now. 97 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 2: They did maintain a close friendship for many years and 98 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: even had the same patron, Charlotte Mason. Patroon basically a 99 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: rich white person who supported artists financially, and that's nice 100 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 2: of Charlotte I guess well, Charlotte did give both Zora 101 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: and Langston healthy monthly stipends. She was still pretty racist though. 102 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 2: She believed African Americans and Native Americans were quote younger 103 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 2: races unspoiled by white civilization, and that American culture could 104 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 2: be re energized by exposing it to primitive ones. 105 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: That was very paternalistic of her. 106 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it turns out Charlotte was central and Dora and 107 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: Langston's friendship, and they're falling out. She demanded complete devotion 108 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 2: from the black folks she was sponsoring. She even controlled 109 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: Zora's work to the point that Zora wasn't allowed to 110 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 2: show anyone else without Charlotte's permission. That being said, Zora 111 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 2: and Lanston did produce some of their most enduring works 112 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 2: during the time that she was sponsoring them. But here's 113 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: where the beef comes in, and it all starts as 114 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 2: a play called mule Bone. Zora and Langston began working 115 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: on mule Bone in March nineteen thirty. The play was 116 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 2: based on a folk tale Zor her during one of 117 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 2: her anthropological trips to Florida. 118 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 3: The pair dedicated the play to Louise. 119 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 2: Thompson, their typist sounds good so far, so by June 120 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: the play was almost done. Zora went away for the summer, 121 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 2: took her notes, and promised to return in the fall 122 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: so they could finish the play. But when she came back, 123 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 2: she would not return Langston's cause. Zora felt that Langston 124 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: wanted to list Louise Thompson The Typist as a third 125 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: contributor and was not down with that at all. Some 126 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: historians believed Zora was jealous of Langston and Louise's relationship, 127 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,040 Speaker 2: but I don't know, I don't know. Also, during this time, 128 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 2: Langston was in the process of severing his relationship with Charlotte. 129 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: Ooh, I knew she was gonna come back in it. 130 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, Charlotte was controlling Langston too. According to Langston Hughes 131 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: biographer Faith Barry, Charlotte chose the books Langston could read, 132 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: the music he can listen to, and the plays he 133 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: could watch. So when Langston got out of his relationship 134 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 2: with Charlotte, she preyed on his downfall and took Zora's 135 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 2: side in her dispute with Langston. Some historians think Zora 136 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: was trying to protect her relationship with Charlotte by shunning 137 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: Hughes because while Langston cut himself off from Charlotte's purse strings, 138 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: Zora remained close to her till Charlotte died in nineteen 139 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 2: forty six. 140 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 1: Zora wasn't trying to jeopardize that bag, y'all. 141 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: And wasn't, so she's not communicating with Langston right, And 142 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: in October of nineteen thirty she submits mule Bone for copyright, 143 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: listing only herself as the author. 144 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 3: Zora Girl Yes. 145 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: And in January of nineteen thirty one, Langston finds out 146 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: that a copy of mule Bone, listing only hersu's name, 147 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 2: was sent to Gilpen Players, an all black theater company 148 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: in Cleveland, for their consideration. I know he was mad, big, mad, furious, 149 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: I rate, but Zora wasn't the one who sent the 150 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 2: play to Gilpen. 151 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 3: It was actually Carl van Vechten. 152 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: Zora had sent him a copy and he said it 153 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,959 Speaker 2: to Gilpen without telling her. During all this kerfuffle, Langston 154 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: applied for a copyright under both their names. Gilpin wanted 155 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: to stage the play, but it still neededn't work. There 156 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 2: was some back and forth. Zora refused to allow productions 157 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 2: to play. Then she authorized it under the condition that 158 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 2: she could work with Langston on changes. Then she sent 159 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 2: Langston a letter saying he didn't write any of the play. 160 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:09,320 Speaker 2: So with all that drama, Gilpen decided not to go 161 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: forward with the play, and Langston Hughes's copy of Meal 162 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: Bone in his papers at Yale. He pinned a handwritten 163 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: note summarizing it down with him Zora Ammuel Bone. The 164 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 2: notation reads, this play was never done because the authors 165 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: fell out. 166 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: Dang, so no one ever got to see Meal Bone. 167 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 3: Oh no, they did. 168 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: It hit the stage for the first time in nineteen 169 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 2: ninety one, over sixty years after it was written. It 170 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: was met with mostly negative reviews and the consensus that 171 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: if Langston and Zora would have finished the play together 172 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:37,959 Speaker 2: then it would have been much better. 173 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: Wow, the beef really impacted the art. That's tragic. 174 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 2: And while a copyright issue was the center of Zora 175 00:09:43,960 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 2: and Langston's beef, ideological differences fueled Zora Neil Herstin's and 176 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,239 Speaker 2: Richard writes beef and they did not mince words. 177 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 3: More on that after the Break. 178 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 2: Part two, zor Neil Hurston versus Richard Wright and other 179 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 2: respectable negroes to understand why Zora Neilhurston and Richer Wright 180 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: had beef. You have to understand some of the contexts 181 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 2: of the Harlem Renaissance. The Harlem Renaissance was an artistic 182 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 2: flowering of the New Negro movement. Its participants celebrated their 183 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 2: African heritage and embraced self expression, rejecting long standing and 184 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 2: often degrading stereotypes. Richard Wright wrote what you might call 185 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 2: protest novels, works that were overtly political and interested in 186 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,400 Speaker 2: sending a capital M message. Richard Wright used his role 187 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 2: as a Harlem Renaissance writer to reveal the humanity of 188 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: black people through the strength of arts and letters. And 189 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: Zor Neil Hurston was explicitly not on that she wrote 190 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: for the sake of writing, rather than for a greater 191 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 2: political good. Some even questioned her standing as a Harlem 192 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 2: Renaissance writer because of her flat refusal to politicize her 193 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 2: early writings. Richard Wright and other writer's acute Zora of 194 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 2: using African American stereotypes in her writing to pander to 195 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 2: white audiences. 196 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: That is an evergreen accusation. I've read some of Zora's work. 197 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: What did Richard say about it? Like, what did he 198 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: find offensive? 199 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 2: So the back and forth between them starts after Their 200 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 2: Eyes Were Watching God is published. 201 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: Give a quick synopsis for folks who aren't familiar with 202 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: the book. 203 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: Sure Their Eyes is written using a Southern dialect. It 204 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 2: tells the story of Janie, who, after childhood hardships and 205 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: difficult marriages, finds the love she seeks in a young 206 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:38,760 Speaker 2: blue singer named Teacake. The two live happily until Jane 207 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: shoots him after he attacks her. Richard wrote a scathing 208 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: review that appeared in The New Masses on October fifth, 209 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty seven. 210 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: In part, he says, miss Herston voluntarily continues in her 211 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 4: novel the tradition which was forced upon the Negro in 212 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 4: the theater, That is the menstrual technique that makes the 213 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 4: white folks laugh. Her characters eat and laugh and cry 214 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,359 Speaker 4: and work and kill. They swing like a pendulum eternally 215 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 4: in that safe and narrow orbit in which America likes 216 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 4: to see the Negro live between laughter and tears. 217 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: It was really bold of Richard to say that in 218 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: public in that way. 219 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I like they was going at each other, But 220 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:22,679 Speaker 2: he didn't step there. He goes on to. 221 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 4: Say, the sensory sweep of her novel carries no theme, 222 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 4: no message, no thought. In the main, her novel is 223 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 4: not addressed to the Negro but to a white audience 224 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 4: whose chauvinistic tastes she knows how to satisfy. She exploits 225 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 4: that phase of Negro life which is quaint, the phase 226 00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 4: which evokes a piteous smile on the lips of the 227 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 4: superior race. 228 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: That's really hard hitting, honestly, and that's a pretty big accusation. 229 00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 3: It was like a very eloquent read. 230 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: Yes, a read I feel like read is putting it 231 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: very lightly though, and other black writers agreed with Richard Wright, 232 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: including Ralph Ellison, W. E. B. 233 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,239 Speaker 2: Du Bois, Alan Locke, and Otis Ferguson. But white audiences 234 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 2: reviewed the book positively, which. 235 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure Richard saw as evidence that his take on 236 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: it was right. 237 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, but not only him. Remember Charlotte Mason, Zora's patron. 238 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: Mm hmm, how could I forget? What about her? 239 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 4: Well? 240 00:13:22,679 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: As I said, she was really controlling in Racist She 241 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 2: got Zora to sign an agreement that stated that all 242 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 2: the material that Zora wrote would be the legal property 243 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 2: of Charlotte, and Zora could only use it with written permission. 244 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: In Yearning Race, Gender, and Cultural Politics, Bell Hooks asserts 245 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 2: that it is difficult to believe that Herston was blind 246 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: to the cultural imperialism the white supremacy of her sponsor. 247 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 2: She goes on to argue that because of Charlotte Mason's 248 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 2: financial support of herson, she enforced specific themes and subjects 249 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 2: onto Hurston's work. 250 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: So Charlotte was getting Zora to include the stereotypical depictions 251 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: of black folks that Richard White sound offensive. 252 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 3: That's the thought process. 253 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 2: But I say, even if it wasn't explicit, Zora knew 254 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:09,040 Speaker 2: that the lady had her views right, and she knew 255 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,719 Speaker 2: she needed money, so preemptively added some stuff that she 256 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,600 Speaker 2: knew would reinforce Charlotte's worldview. 257 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 1: Mm hm, that would make sense. What does Zorra have 258 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: to say about all of this anything? 259 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 4: Sure? 260 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: Did? 261 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: She said, I am not interested in the race problem, 262 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: but I am interested in the problems of individuals, white 263 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 2: ones and black ones. 264 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: I guess that goes back to what you said about 265 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 1: her writing being apolitical. 266 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. 267 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: She criticized what she described as quote race pride and 268 00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: race consciousness, describing it as a thing to be a board, 269 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: stating suppose. 270 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 5: A Negro does something really magnificent and not glory, not 271 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 5: in the benefit to mankind, but in the fact that 272 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 5: the doer was a Negro. Must I not also go 273 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 5: hang my head in shame when a member of my 274 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:56,280 Speaker 5: race does something execrable. The white race did not go 275 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 5: into a laboratory and invent incandescent light. That was edison. 276 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 5: If you are under the impression that every white man 277 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 5: is an Edison, just look around a bit. If you 278 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 5: have the idea that every Negro is a carver, you 279 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 5: have better take off plenty of time to do your searching. 280 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: What do you say about that? 281 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: It's a little bit troubling. In some ways, She's not wrong, 282 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, Like, yes, we are all 283 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: made differently. We all don't have the same paths in life. 284 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: We all don't, you know, have the same roles, and 285 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: we do different things. That's true. But I think this 286 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,480 Speaker 1: kind of sentiment and response to race pride and race 287 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: consciousness in a way ignores the reason behind race pride 288 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: and race consciousness, which is that we've been through a 289 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: lot of shit. So a little dismissive in ways. But 290 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say I don't feel where she's coming from, 291 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: because you know, we take the ups with the downs. 292 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: That's a fair point across the board. I just think 293 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: it's a little misplaced in this instance. 294 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: I really interested to see what Zora Neil Hurston thinks 295 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: of her like standing in American culture now, because she 296 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: is like lumped into all these Harlem Renaissance writers who, 297 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 2: for the most part, were on that race pride stuff, 298 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 2: even though she wasn't. When I first learned about Zora 299 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: Neil Heherston in high school, as far as like her 300 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 2: books and stuff, I think their eyes were watching God. 301 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 3: It wasn't even a sign. 302 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: It was like, you can read these five books, and 303 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: like her book was the only black one, so I 304 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: read that one, but the teacher wasn't like, oh, zorineel 305 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: Hurston was like against race pride, you know what I mean? 306 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 2: And I think like at that time it was pretty 307 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: well known that she was kind of like a contrarian 308 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: in that regard. But I think as a contrarian you 309 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 2: got to be contrary. You can't agree with these niggas, 310 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 2: even if you kind of do what do you mean? 311 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 2: I think that was her role in the Harlem Renissance 312 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 2: was to be contrary to Richard Wright, to W. E. B. 313 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 2: Du Bois to like say these things like I'm not black, 314 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,720 Speaker 2: I'm Zora. You know she said it first. Okay, sorry, Yeah, 315 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: I think that's a fair point. And even if it 316 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 2: wasn't the case where she was specifically trying to be contrarian, 317 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 2: it's like she wasn't the only person who was not 318 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: trying to be in the race consciousness lane at the time, 319 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 2: Like there were other people who were writing who wanted 320 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 2: to be more focused on like historical fact rather than 321 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 2: writing things that were about uplifting the race, rather than 322 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 2: writing things that were about being. 323 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: Race positive specifically. So she wasn't alone in thinking this way, 324 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 1: because I think Drusilla Dungee Houston was writing at the time, 325 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: and she also was on this way where she was 326 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: talking about historical thing and the roots of where black 327 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:35,240 Speaker 1: people came from, and she shared kind of similar sentiments. 328 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: She was still in the category of racial uplift, but 329 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: also in some ways said things that were derogatory a 330 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: little bit about other writers in the Harlem Renaissance because 331 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: of how much they focused on art as opposed to 332 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: educating people about the real black history. 333 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 2: Basically, Okay, because I know Zora got into it with 334 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 2: w Duvois and you know, this is like a little 335 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 2: bit after the Harlem Renaissance, but saying that the brown 336 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 2: versus Board decision like wasn't good basically, and that you know, 337 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 2: y'all so focused on race, y'all so focused on like 338 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 2: getting close to white people, which is a criticism of 339 00:18:14,960 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: the Civil rights movement and desegregation. And yeah, but I 340 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 2: don't know, I really do think that Bell Hooks is 341 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: onto something like having this white woman who is sponsoring 342 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: your life, like you wouldn't be able to really like 343 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: write these things. And she's racist and you know that, Yeah, 344 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: you know, she's racist. She thinks you're primitive, and you know, 345 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 2: be next to you. It's giving get out, like you know, 346 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 2: like you use some of you to reinvigorate herself. 347 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 3: So I do think that played a part in it. 348 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: And it kind of goes back to our episode the 349 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 2: Black Struggle Industrial Complex, like when you have like this 350 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 2: taste maker in your head kind of like controlling the 351 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: art you put out. You're gonna put little goofy things 352 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 2: in there to appease them, you know, Like they're saying 353 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 2: that she used all these stereotypes, and she used the 354 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,400 Speaker 2: Southern dialect, which when I read, their eyes were watching God. 355 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,680 Speaker 2: I like the Southern dialect. I never read a book 356 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: like that before. But I know some people were like, 357 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,480 Speaker 2: I literally cannot read this because I can't. 358 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 3: Catch the flow of the dialogue. 359 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 2: So I do think Charlotte played a big role in 360 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 2: like what she spoke out against and the art that 361 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: she put out. But I mean I could see both sides. 362 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:28,919 Speaker 2: I can see why people were beefing with her, and 363 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 2: I can see why she was like, f ya, I'm 364 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 2: gonna do. 365 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 3: I'm gonna do. 366 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 2: Me and Charlotte, Yeah, me and my girl. 367 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: Did Sora ever review Richard's work. 368 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she came swinging too. In April of nineteen 369 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 2: thirty eight, she reviewed Uncle Tom's Children, which are novella 370 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 2: set in the Deep South that focus on the lives 371 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,959 Speaker 2: of black folks during the post slavery era and their 372 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: resistance to white racism and oppression. 373 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 5: Sora writes, this is a book about hatreds Mister Wright 374 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 5: serves noticed by his title that he speaks of people 375 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 5: in revolt, and his stories are so grim that the 376 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 5: dismal swamp of race hatred must be where they live. 377 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 5: Not one act of understanding and sympathy comes to pass 378 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 5: in the entire work. 379 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 2: And that was just the first paragraph. Mind you, dang, 380 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 2: did they ever squash the beef? It doesn't appear so 381 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 2: their eyes were watching. God went out of print shortly 382 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 2: after its release in nineteen thirty seven and didn't get 383 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: reprinted until nineteen seventy eight. Many believe that happened because 384 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 2: of Zora's refusal to participate in the racial uplift movement 385 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 2: championed by W. E. B. Du Bois, and in nineteen 386 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: thirty three essay titled the Negro College du Boys appears 387 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 2: to throw a shot at those of Zora's ilk. 388 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,920 Speaker 3: He writes, why was. 389 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 4: It that the renaissance of literature which began among negroes 390 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 4: ten years ago has never taken real and lasting route. 391 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 4: It was because it was a transplanted and exotic thing. 392 00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:56,080 Speaker 4: It was a literature written for the benefit of white 393 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 4: people and at the behest of white readers, and started 394 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 4: out privately from the white point of view. It never 395 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 4: had a real Negro constituency, and it did not grow 396 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 4: out of the inmost heart and frank experience of Negros. 397 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 4: On such an artificial basis, no real literature can grow. 398 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: Zora continued to publish some essays, but ran into money 399 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 2: and health problems and died in nineteen sixty after a 400 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 2: series of strokes. Right moved to Paris in the late 401 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 2: nineteen forties and eventually became a citizen of France. He 402 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,640 Speaker 2: published dozens of novels, essays, and other nonfiction works well 403 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: into the late nineteen fifties until dying also in nineteen sixty, 404 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 2: due to heart related problems. It's interesting that they both 405 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 2: died in nineteen sixty of heart problems. 406 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there were twin flames. 407 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 2: No, but yeah, so, like I don't know how much 408 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 2: you know about like Dora's life after the hollow and issues, 409 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: But she died like penniless and was buried in an 410 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 2: unmarked grave, and Alice Walker had to kind of rediscover 411 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 2: her for the public right, and that's how her book 412 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: came back into print. Because she wasn't just beefing with Langston. 413 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 2: And Langston tried to reach out to Zora some more, 414 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 2: and she just would not speak to him anymore. She 415 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:31,679 Speaker 2: wasn't just beefing with like say, she wasn't just beefing 416 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,159 Speaker 2: with Richard right, and she was beef wood to boys 417 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 2: like she had all these people who she was just 418 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: like opposites of. And I say that her legacy hadn't 419 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: been ruined, but for Alice Walker, we. 420 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 3: Might've just like not known who she is. 421 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 2: So I don't know, maybe her legacy could have been 422 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: for her friend or just like erase maybe is a 423 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 2: better a better way to phrase it, because there were 424 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 2: those decades after she died that people really weren't checking 425 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 2: for her for her work, even being buried on my grave, 426 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 2: you know, just kind of like the disregard for her 427 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 2: as a person, let alone an artist and a writer. 428 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 2: But I do think, like it is fun to see 429 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 2: these reviews coming out, right, I like when the beef 430 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 2: is generative? 431 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? 432 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 3: Give me some art, Give me some. 433 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 2: Art to to showcase the beef. 434 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: You want the distract. 435 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 3: I want to distract, don't tweet. 436 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 1: I have something more substantial. 437 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to know that you've thought about this, 438 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,120 Speaker 2: that you considered the other person's point of view and 439 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: you think it's dead wrong and you think they live 440 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 2: in a racist swamp. 441 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: That dismal one girl. So at the time, this was happening. 442 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: Zora had her stature. She wasn't. She didn't have that 443 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: grade of a stature at that point where she was 444 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: beefing with Richard Wright. 445 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 2: I think it depends on the audience, right, So the 446 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 2: other Harlem Renaissance writers, mostly the men, they didn't like 447 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,280 Speaker 2: what she was doing. As I said, the white audiences 448 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 2: loved her book, you know what I'm saying, it loved it. 449 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 2: It was Charlotte's stuff really until she signed it back 450 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 2: to Zora nel Hurston. Such a strange agreement. But so 451 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 2: white audiences liked it, and then the black Harlem Renaissance 452 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 2: men didn't like it because I think they're like more 453 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,840 Speaker 2: mission driven, you know, like we're gonna make this work 454 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: that is going towards this greater good of people realizing 455 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 2: black people's humanity. And I think we see a lot 456 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: of that now. Like I said, there's always the same 457 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: conversations go on and on. It's like, oh, are you 458 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 2: writing to better the condition of black people or are 459 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: you just creating art? And like sometimes people do get 460 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 2: frustrated with people who are like kind of a racial. 461 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, but I think in a way, you know, the 462 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: racial uplift work you can also argue that work in 463 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 1: that vein is made for white audiences too, because we're 464 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: trying to convince them our our humanity. We're not trying to, 465 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: for the most part, convince other black people of our humanity. 466 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 2: I think it's probably fifty to fifty because these people 467 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 2: were very close to slavery, right, so you had a relative, 468 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,640 Speaker 2: most likely that you knew had been enslaved. So if 469 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 2: you've been told that you are less than, you're subhuman, 470 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 2: you're not as smart, You're gonna believe that on a 471 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 2: certain level too. So I think the even if the 472 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: people weren't like, you know, running out to go read 473 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 2: a du boy's essay, they knew that there was this 474 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: important black man who wore a sue and kutacral good 475 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: and went to Harvard and taught at Atlanta University. 476 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 3: So I think it was kind. 477 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 2: Of twofold, like, hey, black people, you are somebody, and 478 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 2: hey white people were just as good too, type of thing. 479 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 2: And I do think that is kind of like what 480 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:39,600 Speaker 2: we see now, Like when I watch a Blackish, I'm like, 481 00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 2: this is for white people, but then it's like, oh, 482 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 2: you see like this black family, now all of them 483 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: are mixed for real, that's a different subjects. Family. 484 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: Let's stay on track here. 485 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 3: On you know ABC. 486 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 2: They live in a nice house, they got good jobs, 487 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 2: everybody looking nice, hair done, nails done everything, They got 488 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,680 Speaker 2: cute clothes, they get along for the most part. It's 489 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: like the representation of it all like aspirational, Like you know, 490 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 2: I ain't lively like that. So I think it's showing 491 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 2: like white people that like, oh, white people are human too, 492 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 2: which is like such a low bar. But then also 493 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,479 Speaker 2: like black people like, oh, this is what you could have, 494 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 2: this what you could be, this is what your kids 495 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:19,159 Speaker 2: could be. 496 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: So do you know what white audiences said about the 497 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: beefs and how they felt about it? Because the thing 498 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: that I'm thinking here is how if you're being a 499 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: respectable negro, you know, you'll hear a lot of people 500 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: say you can't let them see us doing all this, 501 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: like all this in fighting, like we need to be unified. 502 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: We have all these other problems that are against all 503 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: of us together as a race, and we're doing all 504 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 1: of this in fighting. Do you know, because Zora had 505 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: a lot of white people in her audience, what they 506 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: said about these beefs she was having, was she like 507 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: were her audiences like back up, off my girl, or 508 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: were they like, oh, look at the blacks, they really 509 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: are on civilized. 510 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 2: That's a good question. I don't know about the general public. 511 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:57,399 Speaker 2: I know, like the people that were in like the 512 00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 2: Black People's Business and the Harlem Renaissance, like Charlotte and 513 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: carl And I think it was just kind of like 514 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 2: camps and I'm speaking mostly to like her beef with 515 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: Lenston Hughes, the white people that she was like in 516 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: like direct community with kind of just took her side. 517 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 2: She was more well known than Langston at the time, 518 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: you know, he was younger, so they took her side. 519 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 2: I don't know what the general public was saying, but 520 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 2: that is a good question because that is a common sentiment, 521 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: like we. 522 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 3: Doing stuff in front of white people. 523 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: But yeah, it would have been interesting to see like 524 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 2: full blown pieces of art from Zora and Richard coming 525 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 2: out of the beef. One thing about Uncle Tom's children. 526 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 2: It did get kind of like, oh, this is too sentimental, 527 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 2: Like that was like not only Zora Neilhrson was saying that, 528 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: And so then he wrote Native Son, which was supposed 529 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,960 Speaker 2: to be like his serious work. So he did kind 530 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 2: of respond in that way and kind of changed his approach. 531 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 2: But yeah, I love a generative beef. Like I want 532 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 2: to listen to hit him up and who shatya. I 533 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 2: want to dissect the lyrics, you know what I'm saying. 534 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 2: I want to like get in the booth. I don't 535 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 2: want this yap yap right. 536 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: Because it shortens the distance between us and who the 537 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: artist was because we seeing them angry, that's the side 538 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: of them we might not have seen before. 539 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you can be angry in the art, but 540 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,679 Speaker 2: when you're just being unhinged, it's like you're not being thoughtful, 541 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 2: You're not being an artist, You're just talking your shit, 542 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 2: which you know you're human, so I guess. But I 543 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 2: think it's always worth interesting to like put the beef 544 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 2: in the art, write your thoughts down, whatever your medium is, 545 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 2: if it's paint, paint the beef. This is your PSA 546 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:32,919 Speaker 2: to them people. 547 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: But I think it's cool too because it really is criticism, 548 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: you know. Like the quotes were harsh, you know, I 549 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: do think that they were harsh, you know, and there 550 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:42,880 Speaker 1: are other black people who care about Zora and WB 551 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: du bois to saying these things, and other upstanding people 552 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: are saying these things they have right, they have weight, 553 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: you know, and I think, you know, you really have 554 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 1: to be considerate about the things you say when you 555 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: have rank in the black community. It's like, is it 556 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: really do I really need to say this out loud 557 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: in public? 558 00:28:57,920 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 4: You know? 559 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: What is the service that I'm doing for people? But 560 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: at the same time, you know, I care a lot 561 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: about arts criticism as an arts critic myself. Like, I 562 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,240 Speaker 1: think it is very healthy to have these conversations in public, 563 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: and it's nice to see people who were really thinking 564 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: about this and who were afraid to share their opinions 565 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: on it and not just to be like okay representation, 566 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: like okay, like I have something to say about it, 567 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: not really feeling it, and I feel like my opinion 568 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: has some substance behind it, you know, it's not just 569 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: floating on thin air, and I want to say it 570 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: because it needs to be sid So I appreciate both 571 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: sides of that and that way too, and it's refreshing 572 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: and I think healthy to see that kind of criticism, 573 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,840 Speaker 1: that kind of back and forth happening between black artists. 574 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely gives people like me who like to 575 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: be in the archives something to do in like some tea, 576 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: some history. But it also shows that hystorical figures were 577 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: people with emotions, which I feel like sometimes we forget, 578 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,720 Speaker 2: like there are people with emotions. They weren't just these 579 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 2: like great men, great women at all times. You know 580 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 2: they're in relationship with people. And when you're in relationship 581 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 2: with people, you're gonna be beefing, you know. So diving 582 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 2: through the archives, you'll find many examples of your fased beefing. 583 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 2: It's normal. 584 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 3: You're probably beefing with three people at this very moment. 585 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 1: Speak for yourself. 586 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 2: So while it might make us uncomfortable or disappointed to 587 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 2: see it happening in real time with artists today, remember 588 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 2: that beef has this place in storytelling too. Now it's 589 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 2: time for roll credits, the segment where we give credit 590 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 2: to a person, place, or thing that we've encountered. 591 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 3: During the week eves. Who are what would you like 592 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 3: to give credit to? 593 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: I like to give credit to hiking. I really like hiking. 594 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: I like being outside and fresh air. And there have 595 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: been some really nice, sunny, crisp cool but not you know, 596 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: not two cold days and I've been able to spend 597 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: them outside. It gives me lots of time to think. 598 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,959 Speaker 1: I find that I've been getting very, very emotional on 599 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: hikes lately because they remind me of things that make 600 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 1: me emotional. But I'm appreciative of it. I'm like, Okay, 601 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: I was crying the metal yesterday because I like, nobody's here, 602 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:12,600 Speaker 1: so nobody can see me cry. Like this is nice. 603 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: Like you know, I think crying can be a very 604 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: insular thing too, and it's like often done indoors. So 605 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 1: it's nice to be outside and be like, Okay, look 606 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: at all this around me, look at what I'm still 607 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: grateful for. So I appreciate the space that literally being 608 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 1: outside the space gives me to like come into my 609 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 1: full being and it's a good time. 610 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 4: I like that. 611 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 2: I will give credit to reading books out of order. 612 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 2: I just started doing this and because you know, I'm 613 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: on my nonfiction wave right now. And so I was 614 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: reading this book and I was trying to read it 615 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 2: cover to cover and I was just like, I'm not 616 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,880 Speaker 2: feeling this chapter. So I skipped it and I was like, well, 617 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 2: what chapter will I be lucky? And so I looked 618 00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 2: at the table context I was like, this sounds like 619 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: an interesting chapter. 620 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 3: I'm gonna read this. 621 00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: And now was it a book of essays? 622 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: No, it was like a historical thing, but it was 623 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 2: kind of going like too deep in the weeds on 624 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,640 Speaker 2: some things, and I was like, I do not care, 625 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 2: and I didn't like feel like, oh, because I didn't 626 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 2: know about this treaty, that I am missing out on 627 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 2: knowing something that happened in the nineties. Personally, so I 628 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 2: want to give credit to reading books out of order, 629 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 2: maybe just picking a chapter or two and getting what 630 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 2: you need for the book and not feeling bullied by 631 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 2: reading a bunch of stuff that you don't care about. 632 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: I'm here for you reading as you would like to. 633 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: But I must say a response that I would be 634 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: very uncomfortable with closing the book and being like I 635 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: finished it. 636 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,480 Speaker 3: I would say I finished it. You would just write 637 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 3: some chapters. 638 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, okay, yeah, you're announcing this too no 639 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: to myself. You know, I'm just saying, like, oh, I 640 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: finished that book. I have marked that off the list. 641 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: If I missed parts of it, it would just be 642 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: a personal thing, not anything to like be reconciled with 643 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: anybody else. Who's what my patrons and my patrons don't 644 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 1: need to know that I didn't finish the book. Did 645 00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 1: you read all of it? 646 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:05,479 Speaker 3: Did you want to do some research? 647 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: Nigga? But that's all. I like that though, because you know, 648 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:11,640 Speaker 1: you know what you need and what you want when 649 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: you want it. 650 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 3: See y'all next week. 651 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: Bye y'all. 652 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:15,600 Speaker 2: Hi Ma. 653 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,719 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 654 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 655 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us 656 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Theme Show. You can also send 657 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,000 Speaker 1: us an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. 658 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: Head to on Theme dot Show to check out the 659 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: show notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit 660 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,400 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to 661 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.