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Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of

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Speaker 1: You Need Therapy. I'm your host, Cat, and as always,

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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you're here. A quick note before we

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Speaker 1: get started today, or a couple of quick notes. One,

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Speaker 1: I've had allergies this week, so again I don't know

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Speaker 1: how I sound anymore, but give me some grace as

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Speaker 1: I wait for my voice to come back to normal. Also,

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Speaker 1: remember that this is not therapy. This is just a

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Speaker 1: therapist talking to you on a podcast about mental health things.

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Speaker 1: And also, if you haven't already followed us on or

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Speaker 1: me on social media, I would love for you to

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Speaker 1: do that. You can follow the podcast at at You

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Speaker 1: Need Therapy podcast, and you can follow me personally at

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Speaker 1: at Cat dot de fata. And I would love to

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Speaker 1: ask y'all for a little favor again if you could

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Speaker 1: take five seconds to rate this podcast. That would in

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Speaker 1: a lot to me. If you just scroll down to

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Speaker 1: the bottom of Apple Podcasts, if you're on the Unied

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Speaker 1: Therapy podcast page, you can rate it there. It takes

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Speaker 1: literally one second, and I really appreciate you guys. It's feedback.

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Speaker 1: I also take it really seriously, so feel free to

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Speaker 1: leave a comment as well. And I would just be

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Speaker 1: eternally grateful. So go forth and do that please. Now

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Speaker 1: let's get into the episode this week. You are getting

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Speaker 1: me and just me. I'm talking about something that I

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Speaker 1: have a lot of passionate about for many reasons, and

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Speaker 1: we will get into those reasons as we go this episode.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I should have titled it cats unpopular opinion,

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Speaker 1: I feel like, but I didn't. And actually, maybe it's

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Speaker 1: not an unpopular opinion. Maybe people just don't talk about

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Speaker 1: the side of the street very often. We're talking about forgiveness.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about how I look at and how I

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Speaker 1: talk to clients about forgiveness. So maybe this isn't an

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Speaker 1: unpopular opinion. Maybe we just don't talk about this generally

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Speaker 1: as much out in the been as I wish we did,

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Speaker 1: And maybe this will help that. Now I have some

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Speaker 1: feelings about the general expectations and norms that there are

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Speaker 1: when it comes to forgiveness and apologizing to those kind

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Speaker 1: of going the same little like I don't know, container

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Speaker 1: today we're gonna talk about both of those things, more

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Speaker 1: on the forgiveness side. Now, I don't know about you, guys,

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Speaker 1: but I grew up with the idea that we need

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Speaker 1: in all caps, We need to forgive people in order

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Speaker 1: to feel free or light and live the life we

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Speaker 1: were created to live. I was told that holding grudges

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Speaker 1: and quotes affects you more than the people that you

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Speaker 1: have a grudge against, and therefore it's a waste of

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Speaker 1: energy that you could be using for something else. Blah

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Speaker 1: blah blah. All of that. I also has told things

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Speaker 1: like you should love your enemy, pray for your enemy,

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Speaker 1: like forgive those who have trespassed against us, like all

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Speaker 1: of that stuff. I am going to assume that some

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Speaker 1: of you listening to have also felt that way. And

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Speaker 1: the other thing is like I believe this for many

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Speaker 1: many years, and I also preached it for many many years,

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Speaker 1: like put that out in the world as well. And

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Speaker 1: I still do believe that forgiveness is about us and

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Speaker 1: it's not so much about making the other person feel better.

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Speaker 1: And we'll get more into that in a second. But

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Speaker 1: I really want to encourage you guys, as you start

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Speaker 1: to listen to this episode, maybe you pause it for

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Speaker 1: a second. I want to encourage you to ask yourself

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Speaker 1: before we cross to the other side of the bridge

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Speaker 1: where I sit, and I believe, what are your automatic

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Speaker 1: feelings and beliefs and what really comes up When I

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Speaker 1: bring up the topic of forgiveness and forgiving people, it

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Speaker 1: to me feels like a very should based phenomenon, like

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Speaker 1: it's bad to be angry at people, or bad to

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Speaker 1: hold a grudge, or bad to have lingering feelings about something.

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Speaker 1: And as some of y'all know, I always think it's

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Speaker 1: important to look at the why behind the what when

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Speaker 1: it comes to forgiveness. Like I said, apologizing is in

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Speaker 1: the same realm. It kind of mimics the questions I

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Speaker 1: would ask someone who struggles with apologizing too much. I

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Speaker 1: would ask, are you apologizing because you think you did

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Speaker 1: something wrong or because you want to make sure you

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Speaker 1: look good in the eyes of those around you? Like

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Speaker 1: are you actually sorry that you bumped into that person

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Speaker 1: that was actually just like in the way, or did

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Speaker 1: you just want to look polite and nice? In other words,

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Speaker 1: are you apologizing for you or you apologizing for the

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Speaker 1: other people or just people or your image or any

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Speaker 1: of that. The same goes for forgiving people. Are you

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Speaker 1: forgiving someone because it feels right and true or are

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Speaker 1: you forgiving because it is what you have been told

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Speaker 1: that you should do? To be a good and healthy human.

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Speaker 1: The truth is one you don't need an apology to

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Speaker 1: forgive someone, and the other truth that that just because

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Speaker 1: you did get an apology, it doesn't mean you have

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Speaker 1: to accept it, Okay. So I want to put that

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Speaker 1: out there first, and also hear me out. If those

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Speaker 1: things work for you, do them, do them all day long.

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Speaker 1: When it comes to some of this stuff, it's not

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Speaker 1: about finding the answer or the one size fits all.

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Speaker 1: It's about finding what works for you. And after working

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Speaker 1: with so many different human I have come to a

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Speaker 1: very obvious conclusion that the general norms around feelings, apologies,

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Speaker 1: and forgiveness just don't work for everybody, specifically people who

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Speaker 1: have experienced trauma. Now, I want to take a little

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Speaker 1: turn here and talk about feelings for a second, and

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Speaker 1: this is where I think we really begin to go

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Speaker 1: wrong here. So generally we learn that there are good

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Speaker 1: feelings and there are bad feelings. There are feelings we

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Speaker 1: want to feel, and there are feelings that we don't

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Speaker 1: want to feel. And I will continue, hopefully along with

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Speaker 1: every other good therapist in the world, to challenge us

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Speaker 1: on this until the day I die. Feelings are not

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Speaker 1: good or bad. They are just things. Feelings rather our guides.

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Speaker 1: They are tools that help lead us to what we need. Now,

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Speaker 1: it is true that some feelings might be more comfortable

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Speaker 1: and some feelings might be more uncomfortable, but that does

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Speaker 1: not equate too good or bad. That does not equate

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Speaker 1: to say versus unsafe. It just equates to it is

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Speaker 1: what it is. Why is this such a big deal? Well,

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Speaker 1: because if a feeling is good versus bad, add then

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Speaker 1: we would be highly motivated to not feel the bad ones. Correct,

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Speaker 1: bad is bad. We don't want bad. Therefore, we would

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Speaker 1: do everything in our power to move away from the

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Speaker 1: bad feelings, make them go away, and make them not

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Speaker 1: come back. Well, if feelings are what I am telling you,

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Speaker 1: they are tools that help guide us to our needs,

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Speaker 1: but we want to make them go away, then we

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Speaker 1: will never get to the tool that guides us to

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Speaker 1: our needs, and then we will never really get our

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Speaker 1: needs met. I know this is kind of confusing. I

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Speaker 1: have a whole episode on feelings called All of the Feelings,

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Speaker 1: and if you want more on this, I highly, highly

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Speaker 1: highly recommend going to check that out. I also think

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Speaker 1: that I'll probably do another episode on feelings sometime in

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Speaker 1: the near future. So if you want more on feelings,

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Speaker 1: go listen to that. It will be very helpful. The

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Speaker 1: goal when it comes to feeling our feelings is not

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Speaker 1: to not feel them when anger, her, saddest, fear, any

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Speaker 1: of that comes up. The goal is to not to

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Speaker 1: unfeel them. It is to notice, it is to feel,

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Speaker 1: it is to list, and it is to respond. Those

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Speaker 1: are four like pillars of feeling or feelings that I've

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Speaker 1: kind of come up with. One, I'm gonna say it again.

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Speaker 1: One Notice, notice a feeling is coming up, to feel it,

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Speaker 1: Identify what feeling it is. Three listen, Listen to what

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Speaker 1: the feeling is saying and guiding you to for respond,

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Speaker 1: respond with what the need is. Go offer yourself what

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Speaker 1: the feeling is telling you and moving you to. Now,

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Speaker 1: for the sake of this episode, I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: really focus on individual feelings. I'll just probably talk about

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Speaker 1: a couple of them. So again, if you want details

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Speaker 1: on all of the different feelings, go to that episode

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Speaker 1: all of the feelings. Now, how does this tie into forgiveness. Well,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to forgiveness, this is where I get

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Speaker 1: like really hot based on what societal norms tell us

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Speaker 1: to get past something we must and we have to

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Speaker 1: forgive someone like it's the law. And if you haven't

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Speaker 1: forgiven them, that that means you aren't over it. And

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Speaker 1: if you aren't over it, then that means your harboring resentment.

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Speaker 1: And if your harboring resentment, then you're allowing that person

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Speaker 1: to hold power over you. And I just don't agree

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Speaker 1: with this all the time. Sometimes maybe all the time,

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Speaker 1: absolutely not. So let's talk about why. In my most

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Speaker 1: rational brain, which I don't always have, but in my

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Speaker 1: very most rational brain, I cannot rationalize how forgiving someone

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Speaker 1: who has let's say, sexually abused you is what you

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Speaker 1: must do to heal, Like what the hell? Like that

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Speaker 1: does not make sense to me. It can't make sense

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Speaker 1: to me that somebody who has, like I said, sexually

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Speaker 1: abused me, or murdered a family member, or murdered a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine, or I mean, in search, set my

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Speaker 1: house on fire, like think about that stuff Like it

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Speaker 1: does not make sense that I would have to forgive

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Speaker 1: somebody who has done something like that for me to

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Speaker 1: heal from that trauma. It makes zero sense. How telling

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Speaker 1: someone who has been extremely hurt and who is extremely

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Speaker 1: angry that they need to tell someone they are letting

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Speaker 1: it go and really seeing themselves of those feelings, and

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Speaker 1: that's how they heal. That is not how we heal,

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Speaker 1: like releasing what does that even mean? Releasing the feelings?

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Speaker 1: So let's circle back to the feelings. We feel hurt

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Speaker 1: and we feel anger for a reason, a very very

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Speaker 1: very good reason. Hurt tells us that something has affected us.

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Speaker 1: It tells us that what we got isn't what we

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Speaker 1: needed or it's not what we wanted. Anger is a

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Speaker 1: justice emotion. I love anger, and it gets a very

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Speaker 1: bad rap in our world. It is the justice emotion,

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Speaker 1: and it tells us that what we have received or

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Speaker 1: what happened was wrong. It is the reason that actually

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Speaker 1: a lot of the amazing change we're seeing now when

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Speaker 1: it comes to social justice is happening. It's essential for change.

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Speaker 1: If we want change to happen. Ever, in our world,

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Speaker 1: we have to feel anger. So like, let's feel some

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Speaker 1: anger now. There's a difference between rage and anger. Go again,

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Speaker 1: listen to that episode and we'll talk about that there

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Speaker 1: or maybe I'll talk about in the future. But like

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Speaker 1: I said, anger is essential. I want my clients to

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Speaker 1: feel these things. Actually, I want everyone to feel these things,

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Speaker 1: because this is what will lead us to truly getting

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Speaker 1: our needs met and too truly actually find healing. If

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Speaker 1: we think we need to get rid of these things

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Speaker 1: to heal to me, we just have a very weird

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Speaker 1: version of what healing is in our heads. When I'm

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Speaker 1: working with survivors of trauma, one of the things that

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Speaker 1: I hear a lot is I often hear them ask

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Speaker 1: what's wrong with me? Like why can't I get past this?

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Speaker 1: I'm resentful and full of X, y Z whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: and I shouldn't be enough time has passed or they've

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Speaker 1: said sorry or blah blah blah, I mean anything. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes when that happens, it really feels like the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of their abuse becomes their fault and not the abuser's fault.

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Speaker 1: This just breaks my heart because what I want all

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Speaker 1: of survivors to know that, like none of it was

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Speaker 1: their fault. Now, one of my favorite things to do

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Speaker 1: sometimes is give someone permission to hate someone. And I

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Speaker 1: know this is weird, this is weird, but honestly, sometimes

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Speaker 1: you can't help it, and I don't think anyone really

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Speaker 1: wants to hate someone. However, we pretend like we don't

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Speaker 1: when we do and that doesn't work. That also doesn't

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Speaker 1: make any sense. We can pretend all day long that

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Speaker 1: we don't hate somebody, but it doesn't mean we don't.

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Speaker 1: It means we are aligning to ourselves. And if we

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Speaker 1: are a lying to ourselves, then we're also lying to

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Speaker 1: other people. And that's when we get stuck. We get

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Speaker 1: stuck because we can't heal something by pretending it's not there,

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Speaker 1: like I'm gonna say that again. We cannot heal something

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Speaker 1: by pretending it's not there, like again, use your rational brain.

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Speaker 1: How would that make sense? How would I heal something

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Speaker 1: that I'm ignoring? You cannot heal something that we are

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Speaker 1: refusing to acknowledge. And if we refuse to acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: we have hate in our heart towards someone, we will

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Speaker 1: never get rid of it. It just is gonna get

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Speaker 1: buried there and then it turns to things like rage

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Speaker 1: and resentment and all that stuff. Now, this is one

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Speaker 1: of the main reasons why I think we can also

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Speaker 1: have to offer something other than this idea of forced forgiveness.

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna ask you a question. What if we

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Speaker 1: stopped pretending, What if we offered ourselves what we truly need?

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Speaker 1: And then looked at what it would be like to

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Speaker 1: offer something else other than forgiveness to people. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: throw the idea of compassion out and hold up before

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Speaker 1: you freak out, because compassion does not mean that we

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Speaker 1: think something is okay or right, or like we feel

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Speaker 1: bad for somebody or anything like that. That's not what

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Speaker 1: compassion is. And I know, I think I've talked about

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Speaker 1: this book before. Maybe you should talk to someone. Lori

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Speaker 1: Gottlib is the author, and she talks about somewhere in

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Speaker 1: her book about kind of this idea, and it was

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Speaker 1: really my favorite part of the book, probably because I

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Speaker 1: felt like I was finally being seen as a therapist

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Speaker 1: in the therapy world. I think a lot of us

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Speaker 1: can understand this concept and in this idea of forgiveness

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Speaker 1: versus compassion and all of that, it might be more common,

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Speaker 1: but she put this idea out there in the real

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Speaker 1: world for like all of the non therapy and formed humans,

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Speaker 1: I guess. And she also talked about I don't know

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Speaker 1: if this is in the same spot where she talked

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Speaker 1: about this, I just know it was in there. She

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Speaker 1: also talked about something that is also understood in the

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Speaker 1: therapy world, but not so much in the normal world.

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Speaker 1: And that's the difference between something called wise compassion versus

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Speaker 1: idiot compassion, which sounds funny when I say it, but

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Speaker 1: idiot compassion is what happens when we blindly like cheerly

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Speaker 1: people on and I know that the name is off putting,

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Speaker 1: I think, and I'm sure some of you all are like,

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Speaker 1: I never want to do that, or I bet I

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Speaker 1: don't ever do that, But the truth is we all

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Speaker 1: do this. I do this. Idiot compassion is kind of

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Speaker 1: like friend compassion, I guess, And it's what happens when

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Speaker 1: our friends vent to us about that shitty person that

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Speaker 1: they're dating or the horrible boss, and we're just like, wow,

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Speaker 1: that sounds so hard, screw that person, blah blah blah blah,

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Speaker 1: you deserve better. But what we don't do is what

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Speaker 1: someone like a therapist would do when they use wise compassion.

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Speaker 1: Wise compassion is what happens when we're honest and we

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Speaker 1: help people see what really is going on. It like

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Speaker 1: the holding up the mirror idea, is a therapist offers

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Speaker 1: wise compassion when we say the hard and uncomfortable thing

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Speaker 1: and we call out our clients inconsistencies, and we don't

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Speaker 1: just tell people what they want to hear. We show

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Speaker 1: them their blind spots in a very loving way. One

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Speaker 1: of my therapists told me one time, I think I

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Speaker 1: was venting about a person I was dating, and not venting,

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Speaker 1: I think I was processing a break up and how

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Speaker 1: hard it was. And she said to me, she said,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that you do so well as

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Speaker 1: you or someone who holds up a mirror to everybody

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Speaker 1: you're around. The issue is not everybody wants you to

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Speaker 1: hold that mirror up. Not everybody wants to see really

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Speaker 1: see themselves. And so that's why idiot compassion happens, because

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Speaker 1: not everybody all the time, once once that wise compassion.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's something that we dive into deeper at

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Speaker 1: another time. But I want us to use that idea

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Speaker 1: of wise compassion and transfer that into this former idea

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Speaker 1: or former need to forcefully forgive someone. As someone who

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Speaker 1: has study trauma and patterns of behaviors and personalities, I

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Speaker 1: can totally understand why people do horrible things. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I can get it. It can make sense to me.

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Speaker 1: And I even struggle saying that because I don't want

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Speaker 1: it to but it can, I can see it, and

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Speaker 1: I can I can have compassion for the things that

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Speaker 1: may have led someone to do those horrible things. However,

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Speaker 1: in no way does that ever mean that I think

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Speaker 1: it's okay to do those things. In no way does

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Speaker 1: that mean that I am then forgiving them for what

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Speaker 1: they have done. You can offer compassion to someone without

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Speaker 1: telling them that they are in the right or that

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Speaker 1: they are are washed of the things that have happened,

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Speaker 1: And that, I think is a very freeing thought because

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Speaker 1: to me, that says I can understand this, or I

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Speaker 1: can understand why you're a hurting person. Therefore you have

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Speaker 1: hurt other people, including me. But that does not mean

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Speaker 1: it's okay, and does that does not mean I forgive you.

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Speaker 1: That does not mean I accept your apology. There is

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Speaker 1: a sense of freeness in that, And coming all the

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Speaker 1: way back around to the beginning of this, I want

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Speaker 1: to bring up the idea that real and honest forgiveness

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Speaker 1: and real and honest compassion really is about us. It's

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Speaker 1: not about the other person. True real healing happens, and

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Speaker 1: we allow ourselves to be honest and feel our stuff

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Speaker 1: and work on what happens inside of us. Versus what

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Speaker 1: happens outside and around us. Laurie also talks in her book,

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Speaker 1: and again I don't know if this is in that

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Speaker 1: same part, if it's just just something that really stuck

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Speaker 1: out to me, but she talked about putting herself in

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Speaker 1: her own prison, and basically her therapist asked her to

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Speaker 1: make sure the prison cell that she's in has four

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Speaker 1: walls that are all locked, because in our pain and

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Speaker 1: in the cells that we lock ourselves in of shame

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Speaker 1: and guilt, we often keep looking for one way out,

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Speaker 1: and it's usually forward. We're just looking forward, right, one

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Speaker 1: way out, forgiveness, forgive that person, rid yourself of the

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Speaker 1: energy that that takes up. However, that's not always the

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Speaker 1: way that's going to be the light and the truth

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Speaker 1: and what saves you and offten. Sometimes if you just

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Speaker 1: look to your left, or you look to your right,

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Speaker 1: or you turn around, you'll notice that there are other

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Speaker 1: open roads. There's a door and it's unlocked to your left,

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Speaker 1: but you haven't been looking that way. And I say

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Speaker 1: this because I want to encourage those of us who

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Speaker 1: have been fighting this forgiveness battle to maybe stop fighting.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there's no fight to fight. Maybe you can find

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Speaker 1: your way out of the not doing healing right prison

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Speaker 1: by simply just turning slightly to the left, slightly to

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Speaker 1: the right. There's no one size fits all when it

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Speaker 1: comes to the inside of our hearts. There's only one

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Speaker 1: way that works best for us in our individual situations.

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Speaker 1: And that's really what I'm offering you guys to look

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Speaker 1: at today. If you don't think that this compassion versus

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Speaker 1: forced forgiveness is a way for you, you don't have

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Speaker 1: to take it. But what I want you to hear

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Speaker 1: is that there are other ways. And I want you

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Speaker 1: to hear that if you are feeling wrong or bad,

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Speaker 1: or like you're not doing it right, or like there's

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Speaker 1: something wrong with you because you can't find it a

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Speaker 1: way to let go or forgive someone who has deeply

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Speaker 1: hurt or wronged you, you're not not doing it right.

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Speaker 1: You're just only looking at one way to do it.

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's because nobody has offered another way. So,

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Speaker 1: like I said, one of the things that I love

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Speaker 1: to do more than anything is offer permission to I mean,

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Speaker 1: hate people. Some people don't deserve forgiveness, And you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I've talked about being a Christian, and I

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Speaker 1: am a Christian, and that feels like a wrong thing

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Speaker 1: to say, But we are not God, we are not Jesus,

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Speaker 1: and so we are we are not the people who

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Speaker 1: have to do that thing that's not between us and

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Speaker 1: that person, that's between God and that person. It's not

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Speaker 1: our job to rid them of the things that they

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Speaker 1: have done wrong. It's our job to figure out what

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Speaker 1: is going to help me heal. And so I hope

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Speaker 1: that this conversation that I'm having basically with myself opens

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Speaker 1: your eyes to again looking right or looking left, maybe

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Speaker 1: turning all the way around. Because I hate more than

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Speaker 1: ever is when I hear people who have been deeply hurt,

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Speaker 1: I feel like they're the ones that are now in

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Speaker 1: the wrong. When it's not them, it's not you. So

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Speaker 1: I hope this is helpful. And really I think my

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Speaker 1: goal here is just to start a conversation around different

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Speaker 1: ways to heal. And this might, not, like I said,

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Speaker 1: work for everybody, but it might work for some of

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Speaker 1: you guys, and I hope it does. So with that,

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Speaker 1: I hope that you have the day you need to

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Speaker 1: have today, whatever day it is, and I will talk

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Speaker 1: to you guys again on Wednesday for couch talks