Speaker 1: Had those protests on January six, gathered Capitol Hill and
Speaker 1: been peaceful, we would be playing the PHA Championship at
Speaker 1: Betminster this week, There's no question about it. Put another
Speaker 1: log on the fire nobody hears get the time. Hello,
Speaker 1: this is Alan Schip knock back for another Fire Drill podcast. Uh.
Speaker 1: Joining as per usual the New Norm Michael Bamberger from Philadelphia.
Speaker 1: How are you, Michael? Great? I like the new normal,
Speaker 1: don't we all? Don't we all? I want to think
Speaker 1: part points they've they've been with the fire pick collected
Speaker 1: from the beginning. That's the scoring thing that's I want
Speaker 1: to learn about that. Yeah, I think the will be
Speaker 1: a recurring bit in our podcast. I wouldn't know about
Speaker 1: it next time. But just a quick word about about
Speaker 1: power points, because it is a really fun new way
Speaker 1: to score golf. Instead of just strokes, you get actually
Speaker 1: getting points. It's great for kids and beginners who that's
Speaker 1: the mentality and every other sport you want to as
Speaker 1: many points as possible. And so it's really a labor
Speaker 1: of love from from these two guys who I've become
Speaker 1: friends with, Brandon Ebert and Kevin Quinley. They're awesome dudes.
Speaker 1: Members of Prairie Dunes, which might be the best golf
Speaker 1: course in America. Like I went out and played with them,
Speaker 1: I blew my mind and we actually it was it
Speaker 1: was a fun challenge to We played power points out there.
Speaker 1: And it's based on the yardage, right, So you can
Speaker 1: have a five yard hole, but you can tee off
Speaker 1: anywhere you want and make your own golf course. And
Speaker 1: so you know, if it's a if it's a if
Speaker 1: it's this long, hard carry and you're playing against the
Speaker 1: guy who scratched like Kevin, I might move up in
Speaker 1: front of the hazard and played as a drivable par four.
Speaker 1: You would accrew fewer points because you've reduced the yardage
Speaker 1: it and puts you maybe in a more advantageous position.
Speaker 1: So it's a whole other layer of strategy on top
Speaker 1: of um. You have to execute the shots, but you
Speaker 1: got to be realistic about what you can and can't do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that's part of the challenge. It's like can I
Speaker 1: hit a career drive here or am I more likely
Speaker 1: to hook it into the dunes. Well you know the
Speaker 1: answer to that, Michael. So you do have to be
Speaker 1: you do have to be clever. But anyway, part points
Speaker 1: check it out, so well, we want to take this
Speaker 1: before Michael and I have our long travel days to
Speaker 1: um Tulsa, Oklahoma. It's like Paris in the spring. We're gonna,
Speaker 1: We're gonna be there. We're gonna enjoy the week. There's
Speaker 1: some good barbecue, there's some great night and golf, and
Speaker 1: there's one hell of a golf course Southern Hills, which
Speaker 1: is um was great town to be a vegetarian. And
Speaker 1: that's what I hear. That's quick question, Brown, How are
Speaker 1: you getting there? What's your path? I'm gonna drive to
Speaker 1: s j c UM that's the San Jose Airport and
Speaker 1: then I connect through deadn for but only into Oklahoma
Speaker 1: City that I'm gonna drive because the way the flights
Speaker 1: were coming from the West coast, it was just quicker
Speaker 1: than to make that little drive over from from Oklahoma City.
Speaker 1: But um, you know, we've talked about this before. It
Speaker 1: is one of the joys of our job is that
Speaker 1: we get to places we otherwise probably not visit. And
Speaker 1: I do have fond memories of Tulsa just for some
Speaker 1: good meals. And there was that law for Tune Park,
Speaker 1: that little that little lighted golf course. It was across
Speaker 1: the street from the Media Center and years past, and
Speaker 1: we would play and at ten o'clock the light to
Speaker 1: go out and you hear a bunch of like, you know,
Speaker 1: golf writers like, oh crap, you know, and everyone would
Speaker 1: walk in under the cover of darkness, and um, I
Speaker 1: know that place is still going strong, and I expect that. Well,
Speaker 1: we'll visit it. I'm a in Tulsa, bunch. It's a
Speaker 1: great town. And I think Tulsa is two men's gulf
Speaker 1: what Rochester, New York is to women's golf. It's like
Speaker 1: they don't get it that often, but when they do,
Speaker 1: they really go to town and it's a it's a
Speaker 1: great golf town. It's a great city. And of course
Speaker 1: Southern Hills has been you know, retrofitted by Gil Hants,
Speaker 1: and I've seen the pictures. It looks absolutely luscious. It
Speaker 1: was always one of those courses that had, you know,
Speaker 1: the proverbial great bones, um, but there there were some
Speaker 1: greens that are unpinnable and the bunkers looked a little tired,
Speaker 1: so they refreshed Southern Hills. I think it's gonna be
Speaker 1: one hell of a venue. And well, um, we're gonna
Speaker 1: defer too much talk about the golf course itself, because
Speaker 1: we're gonna be joined by Jeff Ogilvie, another another member
Speaker 1: of the fire Pit Collective. Here in the days to come,
Speaker 1: we'll drop a more golf course centric preview and get
Speaker 1: into the wackiness of um the two thousand one US
Speaker 1: Open and some other fun stuff. But UM, today we
Speaker 1: want we want to set the table a little bit
Speaker 1: because not everyone remembers or knows that Southern Hills was
Speaker 1: not the original venue for this PG Championship. It was
Speaker 1: supposed to be trump bedminister and all that changed on
Speaker 1: January six, two thousand and one. And Michael is, of
Speaker 1: course the hardcore golf fan is well aware, recently joined
Speaker 1: the collective and his first big story that that we're dropping,
Speaker 1: which is such a thrill to even say that. It
Speaker 1: goes extremely deep on this whole issue. So, um, it's
Speaker 1: on fire but collective dot com right now, I guess, Michael,
Speaker 1: what what what drew you to telling this tale of
Speaker 1: how Trump lost the p G A where Michelson fits
Speaker 1: into it? Uh? You know there's cameos from Big Jack
Speaker 1: Nicholas and it's quite a rich stew of Big personalities
Speaker 1: and seth wah the who's the head of the PG
Speaker 1: of America. He has some pretty poignant things to say.
Speaker 1: So maybe briefly describe where you take the story and
Speaker 1: why you were drawn to it. Good, thank you for
Speaker 1: all that. Let's try to remember time. Trump has always
Speaker 1: been a larger than life figure. But let's try to
Speaker 1: think about Trump before he even got into politics. He
Speaker 1: was a he was a real estate mogul tycoon. He
Speaker 1: was saying, it's become a fashion was that he was
Speaker 1: a second rate TV personality, but it's not really true.
Speaker 1: He was the first rate TV personality in the sense
Speaker 1: that his shows The Apprentice were wildly popular. What you
Speaker 1: liked him and didn't like him doesn't matter. They weren't
Speaker 1: successful shows. But his real passion was golf. He was
Speaker 1: using golf, maybe to make money. I think his primary
Speaker 1: thing was to raise his status, and he was buying
Speaker 1: courses and his building courses, and he's fixing up old
Speaker 1: courses like dur Ralph. You could say you like him
Speaker 1: or didn't like him, even that's not material. If let's
Speaker 1: just try to think from Trump's perspective. He had a passion.
Speaker 1: He had a genuine passion for golf, and he had
Speaker 1: a driving need in his own psyche to be on
Speaker 1: the world's best stages. And he cultivated the PGA Tour,
Speaker 1: the PGA of America, the U s J and other
Speaker 1: and other r and a other organizations, but those primarily
Speaker 1: to try to get a major championship, with the idea
Speaker 1: that if he could get one, he could get more.
Speaker 1: And if you're trying to sell memberships and tea times,
Speaker 1: you're trying to raise your status through golf in your
Speaker 1: golf course owner, what could be better than that? Just
Speaker 1: as a quick aside to that thought, when you think
Speaker 1: about being a member of Augusta National, what is being
Speaker 1: a member of Augusta National mean without that annual Master's tournament,
Speaker 1: It's a totally different thing. Sometime in twos, through Pete Babaco,
Speaker 1: who was in the CEO of the PUGE of America
Speaker 1: and Ted Bishop, who was then the president of the
Speaker 1: PUG of America, he got the Trump deed Minster Course
Speaker 1: selected and it was had to be a major thing
Speaker 1: on his life calendar that I'm going to be the
Speaker 1: host of the major championship. Yeah, I mean to understand Trump,
Speaker 1: you have to understand golf because he was this this striver,
Speaker 1: you know, from the unfashionable borough of New York City,
Speaker 1: and he couldn't get into Augusta National. He couldn't get
Speaker 1: into Pine Valley or Seminole or any of these citadels
Speaker 1: of golf, and that killed him right like that. That
Speaker 1: was That was is for someone who status is everything
Speaker 1: to not be invited to these, these the most coveted
Speaker 1: of clubs. I think that that explains his whole foray
Speaker 1: into golf real estates like, okay, you won't have me,
Speaker 1: then let me just build something bigger and grander than
Speaker 1: what you already have. Now it's as you said, it's
Speaker 1: not it's not all of our tastes, but um, you
Speaker 1: know that that need to be accepted. And he was
Speaker 1: never really accepted in Manhattan society. Um, he was just
Speaker 1: too he was too loud, he was too new, too
Speaker 1: new money. And I really think it's a huge part
Speaker 1: of trump psyche. And uh so expand on that a
Speaker 1: little bit more, just because the courtship that that Trump
Speaker 1: did a professional golf is almost unparalleled. Because also the LPGA,
Speaker 1: I mean, he went after every single organization and governing
Speaker 1: body there is I mean he he spread it around
Speaker 1: and and finally got the validation for the PGA of America.
Speaker 1: I mean, how important was that. I think it had
Speaker 1: to a huge link for him, and uh, you could
Speaker 1: egg him on in conversation. And I'm really dating myself here,
Speaker 1: not dating myself. I'm really dating myself. But I'm really
Speaker 1: trying to say, is I'm talking about a period in
Speaker 1: his life long before he got into politics. But he
Speaker 1: played the U s J off the PGA of America,
Speaker 1: played the PGA America off the U s g A,
Speaker 1: the PGA Tours. It was part of the mix. He
Speaker 1: hadded this long relationship with the lp J. He's a
Speaker 1: very very sophisticated manipulator, as many great salesman art. And
Speaker 1: what happened in this particular case was Mike David. Mike
Speaker 1: Davis and people of Accua were both rising forces at
Speaker 1: the U s g A. And one of the two
Speaker 1: of them was going to succeed our friend David fat
Speaker 1: as the as the executive rector of the U s
Speaker 1: j A. UH the U s G One was a
Speaker 1: lawyer and a businessman and one was a golf guy.
Speaker 1: Pete was a lawyer and businessman. Mike Mike Davis very
Speaker 1: much golf guy. They selected Mike Davis Pete the U
Speaker 1: s g A, as people somebodys do in that situation,
Speaker 1: I believe went to c A for Prie period and
Speaker 1: then it came back to Golf is the CEO of
Speaker 1: the PGA of America. The U s g A was
Speaker 1: going down an aggressive road to Trump. They had signed
Speaker 1: on the women's U S Open was going to be
Speaker 1: h PN Minster, They had already had a U S Junior,
Speaker 1: the boys champion was Jordan's speed. So that when Pete
Speaker 1: got the job of the PGA of America, he swooped
Speaker 1: in there quickly with Ted Bishop at his side, and
Speaker 1: signed up Trump for the two thousand at senior pH
Speaker 1: signed up Trump for the two dozen in a senior
Speaker 1: PGA and two PGA Championship, And they were sort of
Speaker 1: off and running. So he was playing one against the other.
Speaker 1: And and now he's kind of I mean just to
Speaker 1: jump way ahead for a minute. Well he sort of
Speaker 1: burned to all of them. The PGA Tour probably won't
Speaker 1: do business, So the PJA American probably won't, the R
Speaker 1: and A probably won't. The only people left who will,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm really getting to a head. Here is
Speaker 1: lived golf, but that was much shoot past. But anyway,
Speaker 1: well it doesn't it doesn't form this whole thing. And
Speaker 1: we should mention here that, um, among sports writers, you
Speaker 1: probably know Trump the best, and even among most mainstream reporters,
Speaker 1: because when Michael's at Sports Illustrated he wrote a definitive
Speaker 1: feature on Donald Trump. This is way before the presidential ambitions.
Speaker 1: But um, tell the reader how often you interacted with
Speaker 1: Trump during the reporting of this story. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't want this is a modesty, immodest. I would just
Speaker 1: say it's accurate. He would not let go of me.
Speaker 1: Nothing nothing to do with me, and everything to do
Speaker 1: with the fact that I had something he wanted, a
Speaker 1: good write up in Sports Illustrated, and he thought if
Speaker 1: he could win me over, he'd get what he wanted.
Speaker 1: It just as how one amusing thing. People say, oh,
Speaker 1: how can you remember this all these years later? The
Speaker 1: recent remembers just and I'm sure you've had many kept
Speaker 1: had this experience. Trump gets lodged in your head. It's
Speaker 1: just the way he talks and everything about him. He's
Speaker 1: a slow talker. It's not what he says is not complicated.
Speaker 1: So you know, it's not like it's nuance. You gotta
Speaker 1: remember Trump's skill, and this what I'm about to say
Speaker 1: did not show up at all in my opinion and
Speaker 1: his presidency. Trump's skill actually was to listen to you
Speaker 1: and figure out where he could push your buttons to
Speaker 1: win you over. And but because you know I don't
Speaker 1: like vallet parking and I don't like fire what he
Speaker 1: called those things the water cast getting down waterfall waterfalls,
Speaker 1: and you know I don't need his hamburgers, he would
Speaker 1: say things like, or these not the most spirit to
Speaker 1: put cart paths you've ever seen in your life? Like
Speaker 1: I don't even like cart paths. You're asking the wrong person.
Speaker 1: And then, of course you're trying to be a place.
Speaker 1: You say, I mean, yeah, Donald, those are the best
Speaker 1: cart paths I've ever seen life. And then later this
Speaker 1: is made up. If you should write something like and
Speaker 1: the cart paths so ridiculous, he'll call you. So you
Speaker 1: said those card pass for the best two episode. Heard
Speaker 1: you say so, I mean he's tricky. It's a weird
Speaker 1: way and fun in his own weird way. Yeah, until
Speaker 1: because it was all meaningless, it's just then, of course,
Speaker 1: in president states yeah, I mean right, I mean because
Speaker 1: I dealt with Trump a bit when he was just
Speaker 1: a golf guy, and he was slightly ridiculous, but he
Speaker 1: was fun because he's just he's the larger life character
Speaker 1: and he does understand the game. He loves the game,
Speaker 1: and he could expound on Christie Kerr's putting stroke, and
Speaker 1: you know, he really was a hardcore fan. And you know,
Speaker 1: I actually thought the single most nuanced thing he said
Speaker 1: during his entire presidency when he was talking about the
Speaker 1: electoral College versus the popular vote, was that it was
Speaker 1: it was like match play versus stroke play, and it
Speaker 1: was genius. And when you think of it in that terms,
Speaker 1: the whole thing makes sense because we all know you
Speaker 1: I can shoot eight and you can shoot eight two,
Speaker 1: but I can still beat you in match play. Because
Speaker 1: that's the way, the best, the way it goes. And
Speaker 1: so anyway, that was, that was incredibly insightful. And let's
Speaker 1: say something like, how about the act of giving Tiger
Speaker 1: Woods the Presidential Medal of Freedom at age, you know,
Speaker 1: mid forties, because he won the Masters. Let's say Mollinary,
Speaker 1: you know, just about three weeks after he won the Masters,
Speaker 1: Let's say mollinary have played that back on better and
Speaker 1: he won. Then when Trump had given uh, you know,
Speaker 1: he gave him the Presidential Medal Freedom, the highest civilian honor,
Speaker 1: because he won a golf tournament. And it was good
Speaker 1: for Trump. But let's leave all that aside. He had,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, Trump's best day as president was when
Speaker 1: that kid came to mow the one of the White
Speaker 1: House and Trump talked about and Trump was so charming
Speaker 1: with the kid, and the kid was great that the
Speaker 1: Trump was great. But Trump was spectacular with Tiger Woods
Speaker 1: that day. And one of the things, to your point,
Speaker 1: so he's reading about the teleprompter, he says, and the
Speaker 1: teger had the Garden Trophy scoring outage, and then he
Speaker 1: got off his little Prompterty said, and that's really saying
Speaker 1: something because he only plays the hardest courses. Well, that's accurate, insight.
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to win that now they do
Speaker 1: with Justin Barten. Trump at the point being, it's harder
Speaker 1: to win the Barton Trophy when you're not playing Bob
Speaker 1: Hope and you know the course courses. So as you say,
Speaker 1: your your example was way better. But he I mean,
Speaker 1: that is really the old example, match versus medal for
Speaker 1: electoral versus probably broke, but he's knowledgeable back off. That's
Speaker 1: really the point. Yeah, And so he gets the p
Speaker 1: g A championship in twentys you and then he runs
Speaker 1: a very divisive presidential campaign. He becomes a very polarizing president,
Speaker 1: and there's a lot of angst in the governing bodies. Now,
Speaker 1: the U s J had awarded Trump the Women's Open
Speaker 1: at Trump Beadminister, a kind of the crown jewel in
Speaker 1: his portfolio and the hill Country of New Jersey, and
Speaker 1: it was too late to pull the plug. So you
Speaker 1: had the sitting president of the United States tweeting NonStop
Speaker 1: about women's golf that week. And you and I were
Speaker 1: both of that tournament, and you know the motor cade
Speaker 1: but roar up and in the middle of this golf turn,
Speaker 1: I would pop the President of the United States and
Speaker 1: he's pressing flesh and he's he's greeting his members and
Speaker 1: he's signed autographs and it was this weird confluence of
Speaker 1: golf celebrity politics. And for the wind, he was like
Speaker 1: the potmobile. Yeah, I was unbelievable promobile out wheels and yeah,
Speaker 1: all of it was it was. It was ridiculous and
Speaker 1: fun and whatever your feelings are about Trump, it was
Speaker 1: an unbelievable victory for the Women's Open because it received
Speaker 1: global attention and Trump couldn't help, you know, tweeting about
Speaker 1: these these obscure golfers to you know, to the political people,
Speaker 1: and they had to pay attention because he was on
Speaker 1: the property and this tournament was playing out. And uh,
Speaker 1: of course there was the President's Cup at Liberty National
Speaker 1: where he helicoptered in for the US victory. So even
Speaker 1: though Trump was so incredibly polarizing, he still was hosting
Speaker 1: or he had a role in in these big time tournaments.
Speaker 1: And then, of course January six happened, and that changed
Speaker 1: things in the dying days of his presidency. So take
Speaker 1: the reader through what happens. There's the Capital riots, and um,
Speaker 1: of course, again golf always plays role, as the next
Speaker 1: day Anika and Gary player Resid received their Presidential Medals
Speaker 1: of Freedom. While you know they're they're they're still cleaning
Speaker 1: the blood off the steps of the Capital and that's
Speaker 1: become part of both of their legacies. But it had
Speaker 1: an impact right away on on how people felt about
Speaker 1: about Trump and about his legacy and of course the
Speaker 1: two thousand champonship, which are on the precipice of so
Speaker 1: to walk the reader through what happens in the aftermath
Speaker 1: of the riots, right and and it's interesting to see
Speaker 1: how the U s J played Trump versus how the
Speaker 1: UM when Trump announced his candidacy with hav in two
Speaker 1: thousand fifteen, summer two thousand fifteen, and then he made
Speaker 1: those payous comments about Mexican immigrants, and the us J
Speaker 1: was already getting cold feed about the guy, and they
Speaker 1: sent up a couple of emissaries the us J did
Speaker 1: to to try to talk to him out of having
Speaker 1: the two thousand and eighteen US Women's Open the orang
Speaker 1: just talking about and Trump said, you know, there's no
Speaker 1: way I got a fucking contract. Uh. So now I
Speaker 1: passed forward to his presidency and there's Charlottesville, Ruth, and
Speaker 1: there's everything you know, the the no fly zone for
Speaker 1: Muslims and just you know, one thing and one thing
Speaker 1: after another that could have been disqualifying Mark, and the
Speaker 1: PHA America is like, well, we this guy's gonna be
Speaker 1: the host. He's either going to be the former president
Speaker 1: or the sitting president. Uh. And he's gonna. He's a
Speaker 1: polarizing figure. Uh, but there was no question that he
Speaker 1: was going to be the host of this championship. And
Speaker 1: then and then januaries and then January six comes and
Speaker 1: seth wais in Florida watching an unfold and part of
Speaker 1: it is an intellectual exercise, and part it's just an
Speaker 1: instinctive that a line had been crossed from which the
Speaker 1: p g A could not recover. And um, and I
Speaker 1: know people have really strong opinions about this on both
Speaker 1: sides of it. You know, it's just a golf course.
Speaker 1: From names attached to it, Why does it matter? Well,
Speaker 1: because incept was view of things Trump, the divisive president
Speaker 1: or or ex president would co opt and become and
Speaker 1: become much bigger than the tournament. And that would not
Speaker 1: serve the PJ of America. Well, and when you think
Speaker 1: about it, this this weird line. How those protests he's
Speaker 1: on January six gathered Capitol Hill and been peaceful, we
Speaker 1: would be playing the PGA Championship at Bedminster this week.
Speaker 1: There's no question about it. It was because Trump. What
Speaker 1: no matter what your opinion is, Trump was pinned with
Speaker 1: formenting the riot and then doing very little to quell it.
Speaker 1: Does that sound accurate? I don't want to say anything
Speaker 1: that doesn't sound accurate. I mean, I don't want to
Speaker 1: say I don't want to voice an opinion here, but
Speaker 1: I would think that, you know, the broad feeling among
Speaker 1: not everybody biting these but millions of people, was that
Speaker 1: that that he had. He encouraged the gathering that led
Speaker 1: to the writing and did very little to quell the
Speaker 1: well the writing when when it was underway. That would
Speaker 1: maybe be an understatement for that reason. He lost the
Speaker 1: p J championship, but had those parts from peaceful and
Speaker 1: we would have it. So, you know, people have you
Speaker 1: and I among them. We hate the mix of politics
Speaker 1: in sport. We go to sport to get away from
Speaker 1: politics a lot of the time, maybe all the time,
Speaker 1: but there are times when the two are so intertwined
Speaker 1: you can't get away from it. And this is one
Speaker 1: of those times. Yeah, And there's a long history of that.
Speaker 1: I mean going back to you know, Jesse Owens in
Speaker 1: the Berlin Olympics with Hitler, I mean, um, John Smith
Speaker 1: and Tommy Carlos, like politics and sports have always Muhammad
Speaker 1: Ali and the Vietnam Draft, like this is taking me
Speaker 1: in the NFL games and Trump Trump, Trump turned that
Speaker 1: into something political. Well, it was political, Trump turned not
Speaker 1: more political. It's naive to say that the politics doesn't
Speaker 1: have a role in sports because it's always had that role.
Speaker 1: And while you're right, it sometimes wish it didn't. But
Speaker 1: it's it's just it is what it is that and
Speaker 1: it really is what it is. And the shocker to
Speaker 1: me is the Trump, the Trump that I thought I
Speaker 1: knew before he before he became a politician, ran for
Speaker 1: the presidency. Was such a salesman. I thought he would
Speaker 1: have done anything he could do to not be this
Speaker 1: even though he's a polarizing figure you like him or
Speaker 1: don't like him. I thought he would try to win
Speaker 1: people over and and and even and all through the
Speaker 1: presidency you saw that he wasn't like that at all,
Speaker 1: and it caught up with him in the end. Let's
Speaker 1: see double downs. I feel like I'm going down a
Speaker 1: rabbitable year. But now just to finished this one though,
Speaker 1: he doubled down so much with his quote base that
Speaker 1: it ultimately cost him the thing that probably he really
Speaker 1: did love in life, which is golf. And theydea of
Speaker 1: being the host of this major championship. Yeah, well, and
Speaker 1: you know the crown jewel and his portfolio really is
Speaker 1: Turnberry and which we know is a spectacular golf course.
Speaker 1: Michael I had a great match their years ago. I
Speaker 1: had him like four down, came all the way back
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm won the first four holes if you
Speaker 1: remember that, and then it was like the tortoise in
Speaker 1: the hair. He just chased me down. But um, you
Speaker 1: know that for people should be allowed to have you know,
Speaker 1: it's true. And Janelle was part of that group too,
Speaker 1: I remember, and but anyway we digress. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: for to think that Turnberry he's never going to have
Speaker 1: a Open championship while while Donald Trump is still walking
Speaker 1: this earth, I mean, it's it's a loss for all
Speaker 1: of us. But the RNA, they've never made it up.
Speaker 1: They've never released a policy statement about it, but they've
Speaker 1: just kind of made it clear that as you're saying
Speaker 1: with the p g A, and they don't want Trump
Speaker 1: lording over the tournament. And you know, I went to
Speaker 1: I went to some of those events at Dural after
Speaker 1: Trump had refurbished the property, and he was everywhere and
Speaker 1: he's on the range present flesh and his helicopter is
Speaker 1: coming and going, and you can't ignore the guy when
Speaker 1: when he's the host of the tournament. And so so,
Speaker 1: the PGA makes this decision and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you know, you're only talking about it's a very short
Speaker 1: amount of time to to organize a major championship, which
Speaker 1: we know is a vast undertake taking with all the
Speaker 1: infrastructure and the corporate hospitality. So how does Southern Hills
Speaker 1: jump to the front of the line there? Uh? From
Speaker 1: what seth While and others saw make twenty year thirty,
Speaker 1: they made their the pj SEPWA is you know, the
Speaker 1: senior staff there in the PGA board made their decision
Speaker 1: not to have the PGA Championship at Trump Petminster Um.
Speaker 1: By the end of the weekend after the January six riots,
Speaker 1: they send out an ap B to various clubs, do
Speaker 1: you want to host a championship? Twenty to thirty clubs
Speaker 1: responded the leaders in the clubhouse and what I could
Speaker 1: pick up. We're Congressional Valhalla, which is sold by the
Speaker 1: pack America and UH in Southern Hills and Tulsa, Pahoma. Uh.
Speaker 1: Southern Hills had a lot going for it, one of
Speaker 1: which is they were going to have or they were
Speaker 1: already scheduled to have them, we're going to have senior championship.
Speaker 1: So they had a lot of people in place, they
Speaker 1: had a lot of corporate relationships in place. They had
Speaker 1: a fabulous golf course. Sea have been there recently and
Speaker 1: liked it. And um and as as one of the
Speaker 1: members that told me they were quote major Corney, they
Speaker 1: watched it. Uh favorite expression, I'm gonna use all of
Speaker 1: his and as as in everything in life, you know,
Speaker 1: when you really want to when you really really want something,
Speaker 1: you know, it's like blind love, you pursue it with
Speaker 1: manic seal uh And and they got it. And from
Speaker 1: from everything we're not there yet or from everything for
Speaker 1: they're totally ready for this championship. And I actually think
Speaker 1: Trump Beadminster, we've both been there. Have you been there? All? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: oh right, and I played it, you know several times.
Speaker 1: It's a really good modern golf whereas it's a big
Speaker 1: looks like you know, the second place that would very
Speaker 1: capably hold a major championship, but it's not Southern Southern
Speaker 1: hips is it's got involved, but especially that those those
Speaker 1: green stock pitch shots and chip shots at Startern Hills
Speaker 1: are spectacular, That those crown greens, everything about it, it's
Speaker 1: a really special golf course, and that it's in Tulsa. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it plays like a sand belt of course, you know.
Speaker 1: And they're gonna they're gonna bake it out firm and fast,
Speaker 1: and they've they've shaved some of the grasses down around
Speaker 1: the greens to really highlight the recovery shots. And it's
Speaker 1: gonna be a tremendous test. I'm I'm excited about this venue.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say it feels a little bit like
Speaker 1: like they just airlifted darl and put it into you know,
Speaker 1: the Jersey hillside. There's there's just not the same level
Speaker 1: of artfulness. And so yeah, from just a golf course standpoint,
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any questions that I'm greating this question.
Speaker 1: It's such a deep at this hour day, you may
Speaker 1: not be ready for it. Having made a study in
Speaker 1: your in your reporting life of both Phill Nicholason and
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, in what ways do you see them as
Speaker 1: some similar characters? Yeah, they are. And you know this,
Speaker 1: this is actually not even in the book. This is
Speaker 1: a funny story that Phil told me years ago, where
Speaker 1: he was player of the year in college and they
Speaker 1: had this this big all American banquet and Trump was
Speaker 1: like the hosts. And that was when he had just
Speaker 1: started dating Marla Maples, who Phil said was the most
Speaker 1: beautiful woman he'd ever laid eyes on, and so um.
Speaker 1: At some point there's some interaction and Phil or Trump.
Speaker 1: So one of them convinces Marlo to give Phil a
Speaker 1: kiss on the cheek, you know, for a photo or whatever.
Speaker 1: And at the last minute, like Phil turned his face
Speaker 1: and like kind of went like lip to lip with
Speaker 1: with Marla Maples right in front of Trump, and Trump
Speaker 1: loved it. You know. That's like they both have some
Speaker 1: rascal in them. They're they're they're they like to stir
Speaker 1: the pot. They like they enjoy the energy of the
Speaker 1: cameras on them and their showmen in their own way.
Speaker 1: And there's definitely some similarities there. And I was gonna
Speaker 1: get to this. So you know, Seth was an interesting
Speaker 1: figure because he presided over Deutsche Bank, which we know
Speaker 1: was deeply involved in the finances of Donald Trump and
Speaker 1: gave him hundreds of millions of dollars in loans to
Speaker 1: help keep him afloat. Not really under Seth waws Rain,
Speaker 1: but you know, that's that's a big line item on
Speaker 1: on on WA's resume. And and Deutsche Bank can still
Speaker 1: under investigation for its role in Trump's finances and so
Speaker 1: that's an interesting piece of the puzzle there. And so
Speaker 1: now now enter the Saudias because their their tentacles run
Speaker 1: to everywhere. So Trump is out as for hosting any
Speaker 1: important golf tournament for the foreseeable future. And as you
Speaker 1: teased earlier, all of a sudden they're now mixed up
Speaker 1: in the live golf and they're on the hook to
Speaker 1: host two of these events that are coming up this
Speaker 1: summer into the fall and what And of course Trump
Speaker 1: and the Saudis go way back because he's you know,
Speaker 1: they were some of the first buyers of this overpriced
Speaker 1: condos and Trump Tower. And you know Trump's famous line
Speaker 1: about the Saudias. It applies him as a real estate developer.
Speaker 1: And even when he was president, was they pay cash?
Speaker 1: And in his world that's king. And so he's never
Speaker 1: really had any qualms about their their role as bad
Speaker 1: actors on the world stage. We know that that his
Speaker 1: son in law, Jared Kushner's text buddies with with MBS.
Speaker 1: You know, the Crown Prince and Um. After after the
Speaker 1: assassination of Jamaal ka Shogi Um, Trump did not come
Speaker 1: down on the Saudis as president in a way that
Speaker 1: many other presidents might have, you know, for assassinating a
Speaker 1: Washington Post reporter who was a resident of the United States.
Speaker 1: And so there's been this kinship between the ruling elite
Speaker 1: of Saudi Arabia and Trump and his organization for a
Speaker 1: long time. So I don't think anyone was shocked when
Speaker 1: he signed up to host these two events. And you know,
Speaker 1: Krishner had been over at the Saudi Internationalist this year,
Speaker 1: pressing flesh like this has been a visible courtship. But
Speaker 1: what can we say about this, this now more formal
Speaker 1: alliance between Trump and the Saudis. It's an unbelievable confluence
Speaker 1: of events. And let's bring Phillips at this conversation as well. Uh,
Speaker 1: Phil wanted to roll Phil Uh. Trump has cultivated Nicholson
Speaker 1: as a quote friend. In golf um fifteen years ago,
Speaker 1: Trump was telling me how much Phil loved the driving range.
Speaker 1: He hadn't even played the course, but Phil had been
Speaker 1: to the driving range for an exhibition and allegedly, I
Speaker 1: am sure It's true. I told Trump that it was
Speaker 1: the best, told Trump that it was the best driving
Speaker 1: range that he ever that he had ever seen. Kept it,
Speaker 1: kept the voice message for a long time afterwards. Here
Speaker 1: at Trump Draw, there's a villa. There's one for Tiger,
Speaker 1: and there's one I don't know who else, Uh maybe
Speaker 1: Gary Player, and there's and there's one for Phil. There's
Speaker 1: a Bill Micholson villa at a Trump Darrell. So now
Speaker 1: we've got Phil aligned with this Greg Norman series, uh,
Speaker 1: the Live Golf series, and Trump, who started out of
Speaker 1: options for splashy events that that he can stage at
Speaker 1: his at his tournaments at his golf courses, is signed
Speaker 1: up for two with events himself. Uh So it's like
Speaker 1: everything in life. It's like when you're out of options,
Speaker 1: what do you do. It's amazing because one thing that
Speaker 1: that this Saudia seduction has done is it's brought home
Speaker 1: for a lot of sports fans the insidious nature of
Speaker 1: of the Saudi Arabian regime. I mean, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of Americans are just not have not been tuned
Speaker 1: into Saudi Arabia's role on the world stage, and a
Speaker 1: lot of folks don't know are forgotten that fifteen of
Speaker 1: the nineteen eleven hijackers came from Saudi Arabia, and that
Speaker 1: there's there's there's it was just a news break a
Speaker 1: week ago. You know. The evidences has always been there,
Speaker 1: and it's been buried in classified documents. It was redacted
Speaker 1: from the nine eleven Commission report. But the Saudi Arabian
Speaker 1: government was materially supporting some of the hijackers, and those
Speaker 1: links are just growing stronger. Is more proof emerges, and
Speaker 1: and Saudi Arabia it you know, if you follow, if
Speaker 1: you follow Brandle Shamble's Twitter feed and other places, Satty
Speaker 1: Braby has become so toxic in the public imagination. It
Speaker 1: hasn't changed, but people are more more tuned into you know,
Speaker 1: they just execute eighty one people in the town square, um,
Speaker 1: and things of that nature. And so that Trump would
Speaker 1: would so happily sign on at this moment, I think
Speaker 1: it does reveal a desperation. It's a tone deafness, you know,
Speaker 1: just it's like read the room. I mean, um, is
Speaker 1: it that important to host a golf tournament? I mean,
Speaker 1: he still is a He's present United States, and it
Speaker 1: just feels wildly inappropriate for him to be hosting these events.
Speaker 1: But um, I guess Trump has passed the point of
Speaker 1: really caring, right right, you people, this is not a
Speaker 1: political statement. It's gonna sound like one people get down
Speaker 1: on the bomb if we're hanging out with Bruce Springsteening
Speaker 1: do podcasts with them, or down in Clinton for writing
Speaker 1: a murder mystery. What is that compared to what you
Speaker 1: just said. It's not even on the same scale. No, No,
Speaker 1: it's it's interesting because I mean, we all know this
Speaker 1: is just blatant sports washing and that you know, the
Speaker 1: Saudis don't really care about golf. What they're trying to
Speaker 1: do is launder their reputation on the world stage. And
Speaker 1: you know, the people who take their money are complicit,
Speaker 1: and so it's really it's really a wild moment in
Speaker 1: professional golf. And of course Phil is at the center
Speaker 1: of it. It's been that way for a while. Now,
Speaker 1: what's your what's your guests? I'm starting, but I know
Speaker 1: people are gonna want to know what's your insight into
Speaker 1: why Phil is not playing this week? Let's start there.
Speaker 1: So I think you have to go to his the
Speaker 1: final paragraph of his February you know statement you can't
Speaker 1: call it an apology because it wasn't really an apology.
Speaker 1: You know, he made himself both the hero and the
Speaker 1: victim of that statement. But um, you know that last
Speaker 1: paragraph we talked about I've let people down, Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I need to become a better man and prioritize the
Speaker 1: people I love. That doesn't have much to do with
Speaker 1: with Saudi Arabia or golf tournaments. You know, there's there's
Speaker 1: deeper things at work here. And Phil's playing a lot
Speaker 1: of golf around San Diego. I've actually been sent some
Speaker 1: photos and videos that I haven't posted because it just
Speaker 1: felt a little invasive. But the he you know, he's
Speaker 1: playing Metro Santa Fe, he's playing the farms, he's playing
Speaker 1: the bridges. So it's not like he's hurt. It's not
Speaker 1: like he doesn't have a zest for golf. I just
Speaker 1: think he's not ready to return to public life and
Speaker 1: the scrutiny. And you know, there's gonna be a come
Speaker 1: to Jesus moment where he's going to have to get
Speaker 1: in front of the world and and talk about these
Speaker 1: last few months and some of his decision making and
Speaker 1: some of his motivations to to get mixed up with
Speaker 1: the Saudi's in the first place, and I think he's
Speaker 1: just trying to defer that, and so I don't think
Speaker 1: he's just you know, I've talked about this before, but
Speaker 1: you know, the aftermath of the book excerpt and when
Speaker 1: Phil went into exile, you know, someone extremely close to
Speaker 1: him use the word suspend and talking about you know,
Speaker 1: he said, now the tour wants to suspend him, and
Speaker 1: then they went dark on me. So whether whether he's
Speaker 1: suspended he's on a voluntary leave of absence really just
Speaker 1: becomes a matter of semantics. But clearly a tour told
Speaker 1: them it was time to go away for a while.
Speaker 1: But there's not really any scenario where that would include
Speaker 1: the PGA Championship because the PGA of America does not
Speaker 1: have to honor that suspension. Phil is the defending champion.
Speaker 1: He's exempted into their tournament. And if you were to
Speaker 1: return to golf at Southern Hills, that's that would become
Speaker 1: an event that transcends sports. It would be amazing for
Speaker 1: their tournament to be at the center of that. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is an organization that really has two events a
Speaker 1: year that keeps the whole thing afloat the PGA Championship
Speaker 1: well and then of the writer comphiches every other year,
Speaker 1: and um, you know, the money generated by by by
Speaker 1: these events, it's massively important to the PGA of America
Speaker 1: and so they would have loved to have Fill there
Speaker 1: and it would have been an incredible spotlight. So I
Speaker 1: don't you know, I think this was entirely up to Fill.
Speaker 1: The Masters was a little more nuanced that was earlier.
Speaker 1: That was a little closer to the whole thing. Um,
Speaker 1: when the news broke and if it was say a
Speaker 1: ninety day leave slash suspense, and that that would have
Speaker 1: included the Masters. And because the PGA Tour has always
Speaker 1: been very good to Augusta National, they were going to
Speaker 1: honor that one way or the other, through back channel
Speaker 1: communications or anything they had to do. But I think
Speaker 1: this is entirely Phil's decision, and you know, I think
Speaker 1: he's also maybe buying time to see how it's going
Speaker 1: to play out with the Saudias. You know. Now, um,
Speaker 1: the tours denied releases to the players to go over
Speaker 1: there and play for this first event in London the
Speaker 1: week for the U S Open, So that requires a
Speaker 1: lot of strategizing. Who's gonna break the blockade. You know,
Speaker 1: eight PGA tour members are going to show up there
Speaker 1: and test the waters and see what end probably touch
Speaker 1: off litigation. Is it going to be Phil? Is he
Speaker 1: waiting for someone else to raise their hand? I just
Speaker 1: think there's there's so much up in the air right
Speaker 1: now that from his perspective, he just wanted to let
Speaker 1: things cool down. Um. And you know, of course my
Speaker 1: book does drop Tuesday, the PGA Championship week, and that
Speaker 1: that was that date was picked basically when Phil put
Speaker 1: it out in the ocean course. You know, it was
Speaker 1: always gonna come out that week, and that was long
Speaker 1: before he called me and told me all the secrets.
Speaker 1: And UM, it's just I don't know if you know.
Speaker 1: I sent Phil the book weeks ago now and just said, hey,
Speaker 1: you know this is factors in your decision. Here's the book.
Speaker 1: You'll know what's in it. There's no more earthquakes like
Speaker 1: the Saudi stuff, you know. Um. I wasn't trying to
Speaker 1: influence his decision, but just allow him to be informed.
Speaker 1: If he was worried about what was to come. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: here's the book, you can make your own decision. I
Speaker 1: didn't hear anything back, but so it's it's wild. I mean,
Speaker 1: I do think this is such a crossroads for Phil
Speaker 1: Mickelson because sports fans love a comeback and they love
Speaker 1: a redemption story, and you know, we are a forgiving nation. Um.
Speaker 1: I can't remember which golfer said that I'm talking about
Speaker 1: about Phil, but um it was Big Jack. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: you know he's right, and so people are, you know,
Speaker 1: Phil's done his time. People are ready to cheer for
Speaker 1: him again. But it gets very complicated if if he
Speaker 1: goes all in with the Saudi's at that point, he's
Speaker 1: going to burn up a lot of good will and
Speaker 1: a lot of fans are not going to forgive him,
Speaker 1: because then it really does become about greed and money.
Speaker 1: And he's already shared, you know, his innermost feelings, and
Speaker 1: he knows they're bad people, and he knows the money's dirty,
Speaker 1: he still takes it. That really complicates his comeback. And
Speaker 1: so I think Phil's trying to figure all this stuff out.
Speaker 1: And you know the fact that the Saudi event is
Speaker 1: the week for the US Open, which we all know,
Speaker 1: you know, has been such an important tournament and fills
Speaker 1: life and his legacy, and he's still dangerous at this
Speaker 1: age and um, you know, he was out of the
Speaker 1: US Open field and now he's back. Now he's back
Speaker 1: in it, you know, for five years because of the
Speaker 1: PGA Championship wins. So he's bought himself, you know, one
Speaker 1: last round to try and get the missing jewel in
Speaker 1: the crown. Like it's it's amazing how this has played out.
Speaker 1: So I feel like Phil wants to play the Saudi
Speaker 1: events because he needs to sort of validate this, this insurrection. Um.
Speaker 1: Not to use another word that could be applied to
Speaker 1: January six, but he um, you know, if he walks away,
Speaker 1: now it's like what was all this about? And I
Speaker 1: do think he wants the money. He might need the money,
Speaker 1: so it's um. At the same time, I think he
Speaker 1: knows that it will complicate his legacy and it's a
Speaker 1: monumental decision. I just don't think he's made up his
Speaker 1: mind and so like it just made sense to himself.
Speaker 1: Another month here, it was extremely nuance stancre. There's so
Speaker 1: much in there that was very well done out and
Speaker 1: uh uh start to cut to the chase and we
Speaker 1: don't know this because we're not for instanc accounts here,
Speaker 1: but if if if you're weighing legacy versus cash flow problems.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying we know, because we don't. Cash
Speaker 1: flow problems will win out. If you're starting and you
Speaker 1: can see all low for bread, you're gonna see a
Speaker 1: lot low for bread um. And of course that that's
Speaker 1: a very crude analogy, and viewed that way, despite all
Speaker 1: the nuances, he said, it would be hard to mention him.
Speaker 1: He's got to do something with the rest of his life.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's like what Warren Buffett said, you
Speaker 1: know recently. You know, how do you I think it
Speaker 1: was Buffett, how do you compensate? Or how do you
Speaker 1: how do how do you get a handle on inflation?
Speaker 1: Double down? And the thing that you're good at me
Speaker 1: because you know that the thing that he's good at
Speaker 1: is playing golf in front of people now, as you
Speaker 1: exly said. But if he loses a lot of fans
Speaker 1: along the way by ling down with the Saudias, it
Speaker 1: means to kind of lose the thing that makes his
Speaker 1: paid to possible in the first place, and that would
Speaker 1: lead to questions of to get the worsements again and
Speaker 1: everything else. On the other hand, the Saudis some games,
Speaker 1: so much money, it doesn't matter. Uh yeah, there's so
Speaker 1: much going on your I know, But for for a
Speaker 1: consummate showman who always who thrives on the energy of
Speaker 1: the crowd, Like what kind of crowds are they going
Speaker 1: to have at these Saudi events? You know, it's it's
Speaker 1: gonna be sparse. You know, the ticket prices are really high.
Speaker 1: I would I thought that they would just let people
Speaker 1: in for free, but they're definitely they're definitely appealing to
Speaker 1: a certain demographic, and so they're gonna feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's a shotgun star. It's fifty four. Hold, They're already
Speaker 1: doing things. They're going to diminish the the feeling of
Speaker 1: a big time golf tournament, and you add small fans
Speaker 1: and sort of second rate venues to it. It just
Speaker 1: feels a little sad. You know. It's like it's like
Speaker 1: Jake LaMotta here doing Vegas lounge acts at the tail
Speaker 1: end of his career. I mean, Phil Mickelson is the
Speaker 1: defending campion of the PGA Championship. He can he can
Speaker 1: play Revere, he can play Pebble Beach, he can play
Speaker 1: all you know, colonial all his favorite places where he's
Speaker 1: he's one and he's he's revered and he's beloved, and
Speaker 1: to give that up to go and and look at
Speaker 1: I mean even Greg Norman, who It's interesting because Phil
Speaker 1: and Greg have never really been friends, but they are
Speaker 1: kind of kindred spirits, and they each of have had
Speaker 1: their battles with the tour and they're kind of these
Speaker 1: iconic class there. They like to think of themselves as
Speaker 1: rebels and pleaded pants. I mean, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: overlap in their personalities and even the way they play
Speaker 1: the game. You know, aggressive slash, reckless cost Norman a
Speaker 1: lot of majors. It certainly costs Phil a few. Um
Speaker 1: so it's almost like somewhat inevitable they would team up
Speaker 1: on this. But Norman has made himself such a pariah
Speaker 1: in this this last act of his his golfing life,
Speaker 1: and his comments week after week about the Saudi's have
Speaker 1: just been increasingly ridiculous us And you know, it feels like,
Speaker 1: is this a guy I'm gonna throw in with? Like,
Speaker 1: am I gonna hitch my entire professional life to Greg Norman?
Speaker 1: Like he's got to be wondering about that as he
Speaker 1: watches from the sideline. It's just then, once the option
Speaker 1: double down on the Senior Tour, and he's bored up
Speaker 1: a soons like he's bored out of his mind. There
Speaker 1: maybe not, but I don't know. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: if he if he, if he comes back and says,
Speaker 1: you know, I thought that I was being a really
Speaker 1: kg businessman here. I had, I had leverage. I was
Speaker 1: trying to affect change to help all professional golfers. I
Speaker 1: was trying to reshape the landscape so it would, you know,
Speaker 1: bring us into the two thousand and twenties. And I
Speaker 1: was thinking about all my colleagues, and you know, I
Speaker 1: might have overplayed my hands slightly. I've thought about it
Speaker 1: the I don't feel comfortable taking the Saudi money. I
Speaker 1: love the PGA Tour. It's been an amazing platform for me.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna come back play my schedule. I'm here
Speaker 1: to sign autographs and make birdie's and make people smile,
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm glad this chapter of my life
Speaker 1: is over and let's just play golf. I think people
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, right on, man, hell yeah, let's go
Speaker 1: go Phil. And I don't think it would be that hard.
Speaker 1: And I may hit some bombs for you, hit some
Speaker 1: bombs you know I'll be I'll continue to beat my
Speaker 1: stick on social media, which people enjoy, like, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: as I bump into into casual golf fans at Pacific Grove,
Speaker 1: Muni and other places sitting on airplanes, a lot of
Speaker 1: people can't. They want me to explain why is why
Speaker 1: is Phil in exile? It doesn't even they don't even
Speaker 1: get it. They're not falling at that carefully. You know,
Speaker 1: you and I follow this stuff forensically, but the average
Speaker 1: golf fan, many of them are just confused, like what
Speaker 1: did you do that was wrong? Because there is an
Speaker 1: element of hypocrisy where every other golfer takes the Saudi
Speaker 1: money and they get they get away with it, and
Speaker 1: Formula one races over there and every a million other
Speaker 1: sports and um, you know, Lee Westwood's out there, uh
Speaker 1: how talking about how excited he is to go play
Speaker 1: for the Saudi and he's kind of ska it on it,
Speaker 1: like why Phil? You know, he kind of strayed off
Speaker 1: the script where he was too blunt and he was
Speaker 1: too honest, and you know, we all roll our eyes
Speaker 1: when Dustin Johnson says, I'm just over there to grow
Speaker 1: the game, and I'm a I'm an athlete, not a politician, like,
Speaker 1: but that's the script and if you stay on it,
Speaker 1: people will give you a pass because it's been it's
Speaker 1: proven effective through the years. Now. But but Phil, you know,
Speaker 1: he said the quiet parts out loud and so um
Speaker 1: it's nevertheless, I mean, professional athletes, professional golfers have done
Speaker 1: far worse and and been embraced again. And so fans
Speaker 1: are ready to cheer for Phil. They want to cheer
Speaker 1: for Phil and um, but if he goes all into
Speaker 1: the Saudias, he gets a lot harder. So this is
Speaker 1: really a monumental decision for him. And um, you know,
Speaker 1: I think I think this PG Championship was just a
Speaker 1: casualty and the decision making processes. He's still trying to
Speaker 1: sort all this stuff out. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that's last year is how correct he use about a
Speaker 1: lot of things. Um, you know, the weekend a week
Speaker 1: out of somebody to hold strokeplay events. Um, the Peck
Speaker 1: Tour is often very boring in my opinion. And uh,
Speaker 1: and team golf as a concept, cohole golf as a concept, Um,
Speaker 1: they may work, they may not work. But you know,
Speaker 1: you and I have tried things in our writing lines.
Speaker 1: Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. You really can't
Speaker 1: kick people for trying something new, which of course is
Speaker 1: what's happening here because of the overlord said of being
Speaker 1: the Saudis. But uh well, and the whole yeah, that
Speaker 1: the PGA tour product has gotten stale as an organization,
Speaker 1: it's very lumbering and way behind the times when it
Speaker 1: comes to media stuff. You know, their streaming app is
Speaker 1: still a mess after all these years. Their social media
Speaker 1: is terrible, like because they haven't had competition. They've the
Speaker 1: tour has grown complacent and the Saudis have provided that
Speaker 1: that spark and all of a sudden things are happening
Speaker 1: at the tour and they've been spurred to change, which
Speaker 1: was kind of Fils larger points all along. And that
Speaker 1: is one of the tragedies in this is that he
Speaker 1: was he did have some very valid points and he
Speaker 1: actually was winning some of these political battles behind the scenes,
Speaker 1: and all that's kind of been lost. But you know,
Speaker 1: Phil saw himself as this agent of change and in
Speaker 1: some ways he was effective, but you know, he set
Speaker 1: himself on fire through his his his bluntness and I
Speaker 1: guess his callousness and um but he is going to
Speaker 1: be a legacy from all of this where Phil did
Speaker 1: force the tour to evolve. He may never get the
Speaker 1: credit for it, but and he knows, and he's never
Speaker 1: gonna forget that. And I think that's important to him
Speaker 1: and his personality needs to be right. And I think
Speaker 1: that's also one of the things that's drawing him towards
Speaker 1: the South East is that he still wants to ticket
Speaker 1: to the tour like he had all these grievances. Then
Speaker 1: they you know, they forced him on the sideline for
Speaker 1: for airing his grievances. So you know, he's a guy
Speaker 1: who loves to double down, whether it's in Vegas or
Speaker 1: it's on the golf course. And the ultimate double down
Speaker 1: MOVI here is to go into the Saudias and say,
Speaker 1: look to the tour, like I gave you thirty plus
Speaker 1: years and I didn't get much back other than you know,
Speaker 1: the money I won. But I had to build my
Speaker 1: brand on my own and I still don't have my
Speaker 1: my media and digital rights and all these things he
Speaker 1: cares about, and so m he'll get he can get
Speaker 1: those things from the Saudias. And I think that that
Speaker 1: that's part of the appeal is he needs to be right,
Speaker 1: he needs to win this battle, and if he kind
Speaker 1: of goes back to the tour with his tail between
Speaker 1: his legs, it'll feel like he lost. So it's complex.
Speaker 1: Do you think I'll play the US? Maybe because at
Speaker 1: that point the Saudi question will have been answered. Who's
Speaker 1: gonna play? Who's going to break the blockade? Um is
Speaker 1: litigation has that? Has that been touched off? So I
Speaker 1: think that that becomes more likely. But um, I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's people who think he's never gonna play another event
Speaker 1: outside of the LIBS series, which would be wildly tragic.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine Phil not at Augusta, like, you know,
Speaker 1: all the things that were on the table for him
Speaker 1: to be an honorary starter for the Masters, to be
Speaker 1: in a TV tower, you know, making Tony Romo money,
Speaker 1: Like these things are still these things are still available
Speaker 1: to fill. I mean there's again, Tiger Woods put his
Speaker 1: his family, his fans and the game through much worse
Speaker 1: than Phil Michelson has from the narrow standpoint of the
Speaker 1: Todderinus of the scandal. And you know, Phil broke some
Speaker 1: unwritten rules. We didn't break any laws like Tiger did
Speaker 1: with his d U I and Tiger has never been
Speaker 1: more beloved. There is a roadback for Phil, but he
Speaker 1: has to me very careful what he does when it
Speaker 1: comes to saudiast because that can evaporate and and those things,
Speaker 1: those opportunities can disappear because the lovers of power have
Speaker 1: kind of rallied around the PGA tourn very subtle ways,
Speaker 1: and they don't want the Saudis to become a part
Speaker 1: of professional golf. And much like the RNA does not
Speaker 1: want to give an open to Trump, they do not
Speaker 1: want to give the Saudis a seat at the table.
Speaker 1: And so these things are being expressed behind closed doors.
Speaker 1: But the little moves they're making, like for instance, you
Speaker 1: know the Live Golf series, you know they buy into
Speaker 1: or the Saudis buy into the Asian Tour with this
Speaker 1: this two million dollar investment, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: the RNA clawback that that automatic exemption into the open
Speaker 1: for the leading money winner on the Asian Tour. And
Speaker 1: that was a very subtle thing that golf fans and
Speaker 1: even noticed, but it was it was a message like
Speaker 1: we are not on your side and we're going to
Speaker 1: try and protect our own. And so it's um It's
Speaker 1: really an unparalleled moment in professional golf, and somehow inevitably
Speaker 1: Michelson and Trump are in the middle of it. You know,
Speaker 1: your your story about Jack that's on fire, but Collective
Speaker 1: dot Com now you know Jack Nicholas is part of
Speaker 1: it too. To tell the listeners what what the offer
Speaker 1: was for Jack to get involved with the saudis well
Speaker 1: telling me. I think Jackman is a part of it
Speaker 1: by not being part of it. And uh, and that's
Speaker 1: sort of what, you know, one of the points they
Speaker 1: tried tried to make him the story. But you know,
Speaker 1: in Tiger and in Trump, you really have to disruptive
Speaker 1: people who sort of thrived on chaos. I mean, for
Speaker 1: those of us who watched Phil's career unfold, he thrived
Speaker 1: on chaos on the golf course, you know, when things
Speaker 1: weren't really haywire um, something in his psyche let him
Speaker 1: pull things off in really exciting ways. And Trump thrived
Speaker 1: in the chaos too. And this is the most most
Speaker 1: chaotic moment. I mean, I've been founding him a long time,
Speaker 1: but people have been flying far longer than I say.
Speaker 1: They've never seen a period of total chaos in the
Speaker 1: game as it is now and it's just so telling
Speaker 1: that that Trump and Phil are at the center of
Speaker 1: the chaos. To answer your question, Jack most decidedly is not.
Speaker 1: And and one of the things that Nicholas told me,
Speaker 1: and he he first brought this up while talking in
Speaker 1: a large public setting at the Honda Classic, people just
Speaker 1: didn't pick up on it, or the public didn't pick
Speaker 1: up on it um was that he was offered in access,
Speaker 1: as he told me, and excess of a hundred million
Speaker 1: dollars by the Saudi overlords. So this of this golf
Speaker 1: league before Greg Norman got involved, to play this sort
Speaker 1: of chairman um face of the tour, and and he
Speaker 1: said no. And I think by saying no, what he
Speaker 1: was saying is there's not enough money in the world
Speaker 1: for me to do that because the pg Tour made me.
Speaker 1: I have two events on the PJ Tour, the Memorial
Speaker 1: Tournament and to a lesser degree, the Honda Classic, that
Speaker 1: are that contributed charities that that are important. You may
Speaker 1: and that's of course part of it as well, But
Speaker 1: what but what you really when I really thought about
Speaker 1: what this commons where you know why I say no
Speaker 1: it a hundred million dollars is because he repreates even
Speaker 1: though he's close to Trump and he's and he's good,
Speaker 1: has a good relationship with Bill. He represents an American
Speaker 1: value system that and I may be romanticizing it here,
Speaker 1: but it's rooted in civility, in common ground, in not
Speaker 1: being so divisive. Um. And that's not these times, um,
Speaker 1: you know when we see it with how Monahan is
Speaker 1: responding to this threat, and it's understandable Monahan doing what
Speaker 1: he's doing. Um. But so when you say, you know,
Speaker 1: you know big Jazz cut a roller, Yeah, Big Jack
Speaker 1: has a role here by by showing that money shouldn't
Speaker 1: always carry the day, except for the fact money almost
Speaker 1: always does, so it's carried the day. And even in
Speaker 1: Nicholas's case, Nicholas and an old Palmber and others, they
Speaker 1: created the modern PGA Tour by doing in a way,
Speaker 1: in a way what Phil wants to do here, which
Speaker 1: is they broke away from the PJA of America, the
Speaker 1: host of this week's Sortament and an event that that
Speaker 1: that Nicholas won five times in to create the PGA Tour.
Speaker 1: But these things are so nuanced because it's not just
Speaker 1: what you do, it's how you do and what you say,
Speaker 1: and in the stances that you take in public and
Speaker 1: a certain a certain civil code that is very much
Speaker 1: liking now and that really is a bedrock, exactly asset
Speaker 1: of of what golf has, and we've seen it in
Speaker 1: other golfing areas because really, the the ethic that I
Speaker 1: observed and one of the things that drew me in
Speaker 1: the game in the well forever, really is that the
Speaker 1: fund and you and I talked about this not the
Speaker 1: fundamental starting point of competitive golf is strict, strict adherence
Speaker 1: to the rules, and once you start taking having attitude
Speaker 1: of every man for himself in terms of oh can
Speaker 1: I push this rule or not, we were really getting
Speaker 1: away from the core value of what golf is in
Speaker 1: the first place. And unfortunately, um, you've seen that happen.
Speaker 1: We've all seen that happen in professional golf to some
Speaker 1: degree limited other cases are but they're happen cases, and
Speaker 1: we're seeing that more broadly as well. We're seeing a
Speaker 1: certain lawlessness and sort of gets back to the point
Speaker 1: I tried to make earlier that when you see those protesters,
Speaker 1: it's a fundamental American right to protest peace and to
Speaker 1: complain and demonstrate. No your displeasure with what our government
Speaker 1: is doing. There's nothing wrong with that. But when they
Speaker 1: but when they went in there with ramming irons and
Speaker 1: started breaking winners and doors and threatening people and people
Speaker 1: and getting people up and people and causing mayhem and fatalities,
Speaker 1: then of course you crossed the line. And that was
Speaker 1: the line that law responded to both intellectually animals. But
Speaker 1: it is interesting because you know, Jack has been building
Speaker 1: a golf course in Saudi Arabia, and so he's it
Speaker 1: is it is nuanced as you to use your word,
Speaker 1: but I guess the differences that was just a little
Speaker 1: project for his company to take on this role for
Speaker 1: for live golf would be work not subverting the PGA
Speaker 1: tour and really again creating this this this dividing line
Speaker 1: in the whole game. And so Jack could he's made
Speaker 1: peace with whatever he has to do to take take
Speaker 1: the money from the Saudias and his designing life, but
Speaker 1: um to to subvert the entire world order professional golf
Speaker 1: that he didn't want to go down that road. So
Speaker 1: it is telling in its own way. And of course
Speaker 1: among celebrity and among big time athletes, Jack was one
Speaker 1: of the most prominent voices in endorsing Trump reelection, right
Speaker 1: and so, and you know Mike Pence's staff wrote that
Speaker 1: statement he put out and uh so, it's it's complex.
Speaker 1: These tentacles run through so many different ways, from from
Speaker 1: Trump to the Saudias, through Jack through Phil. And that's
Speaker 1: what I loved about your story is that it brought
Speaker 1: it all together and it's a framework to understand, as
Speaker 1: you said, this extremely chaotic moment. And um, it just
Speaker 1: you just wonder is anyone going to survive this? You know,
Speaker 1: Phil has been besmirched, Norman has um like maybe maybe
Speaker 1: Ja Monahan is going to emerge as as the good
Speaker 1: guy and all of this. Maybe maybe by you know,
Speaker 1: Jack civil disobedience here or not taking the money. I
Speaker 1: think that's probably redeemed him for some fans and um,
Speaker 1: but it's like this has gotten so messy and the
Speaker 1: um it's what what gives this jittery feeling is not
Speaker 1: knowing what's next. I mean I was on pins and
Speaker 1: needles waiting for Phil to announce the p g A
Speaker 1: and not. We know he's not going to be there,
Speaker 1: but we still don't know what's next. When is he
Speaker 1: gonna return to public life? Is he gonna play the
Speaker 1: Saudi of is he gonna play the US Open? He
Speaker 1: is gonna play in St. Andrews. Like there's just all
Speaker 1: these different mile posts out there and we don't know
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. And um, we still don't know
Speaker 1: how these terms are gonna play out. Who's gonna show
Speaker 1: up for them? When when you know the saudiast start starting,
Speaker 1: you know, handing out the money, Like that's just the
Speaker 1: uncertainty and and almost the chaos is really unparalleled, and
Speaker 1: I guess such a fascinating moment. It's really easy for
Speaker 1: any of us for you know, you and I on
Speaker 1: this conversation. Two, this is sound harsh, but to take
Speaker 1: this wholier than now position, what would any of us
Speaker 1: do of NBS showed a better door, like uh, you know,
Speaker 1: like in one of those gangster movies that you know,
Speaker 1: I'll pay you a hundred million dollars to your house.
Speaker 1: You got to move out today. I would like to
Speaker 1: think I would say no, but I don't know that
Speaker 1: I would. Um, you know, well, on I mean on
Speaker 1: a small scale, you know, as the at the here
Speaker 1: at the at the collective, we do a lot of
Speaker 1: fun travel stories and we've been to Scotland, We've been
Speaker 1: to Ireland and Kauai and all these boards of tourism
Speaker 1: are are well funded by the governments and they want
Speaker 1: they want us to help tell their story and that's
Speaker 1: part of our business. And and then it's you know,
Speaker 1: obviously Matchinell has been in the travel space for a
Speaker 1: long time and he's great at those videos, and we
Speaker 1: have these talented technicians and um we we say yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's part of our business. But you know,
Speaker 1: the Saudis did make some fuelers a long time ago,
Speaker 1: in the early days of the collective, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we're all proud to say the answer was, no, we're
Speaker 1: not going to go over there and do a fun,
Speaker 1: breezy story about you know, golf and Saudi Arabia. And
Speaker 1: as a as a upstart company that needs revenue, you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard to say no to anyone who wants to
Speaker 1: write a big check. But you do have to have
Speaker 1: a code and um so I mean that that's that's
Speaker 1: just one of our bedrock principles. We're just not going
Speaker 1: to take the Saudi money in any scenario. And um
Speaker 1: they it now. It was a hundred million dollars I'll
Speaker 1: say that so um as as I guess get more
Speaker 1: Commas than Zeros, it gets it gets harder to say no.
Speaker 1: But at some point you just got to decide what
Speaker 1: your value system is, right, right right? I think that's
Speaker 1: what Nicholas showed. Now he is eighty two and blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, but I think that is ultimately what Nicholas showed.
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about this week. We're going to have
Speaker 1: a great week of golf. Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday will
Speaker 1: all be about the golf. There's no one separating themselves
Speaker 1: from the crowd, your solciers and different personalities, so you're like,
Speaker 1: we're not there different personalities. Um think you know, Major
Speaker 1: Championship golf is engaging and it will be a pleasure
Speaker 1: not to have to think about this stuff for four days.
Speaker 1: But I think it's also important to remember that underneath
Speaker 1: this stuff is bubbling and it's not going anywhere, and
Speaker 1: really there's a vacuum of leadership right now. And you
Speaker 1: can say we wanted about Joe d Or or Deem
Speaker 1: Beamon or anybody or anybody else, but staid aside from
Speaker 1: Monahan in a way and Fred Lee at Augusta in
Speaker 1: a way. I mean, there are some good people leading
Speaker 1: in the game right now, Mike want with U s
Speaker 1: g A. But there's no overarching generational sense of we're golf,
Speaker 1: this is the way we do things. I know I
Speaker 1: romanticize Arnold probably as a person in his career as well,
Speaker 1: But I've said this many times. Arnold he never he
Speaker 1: was a big major figure. He had a big ego,
Speaker 1: He made hundreds of millions of dollars from golf. His
Speaker 1: starting principle was I am not bigger than the game,
Speaker 1: and it served him well and it was authentic and
Speaker 1: that is missing right now. Um. And it's troubling for
Speaker 1: those of us who love the game and who can
Speaker 1: sort of see that while we play this, while this
Speaker 1: four days of good tournament golf is going on, there
Speaker 1: are nefarious things bubbling underneath it. Yeah, well I think
Speaker 1: that's that's a great ending point. And how do you
Speaker 1: like what you said? We had to we had to
Speaker 1: address all this stuff. It's it's very important context for
Speaker 1: this golf tournament. Um. And as the week goes on,
Speaker 1: we'll we'll we'll focus more on people who are here,
Speaker 1: including guying Tiger Woods. We hardly touched on in this
Speaker 1: preview piece, but what we'll get to him. Tiger is
Speaker 1: going to have his moment on on the Fire Drill
Speaker 1: podcast for sure. But um, thank you for thank you
Speaker 1: for all your insight here, Michael. Thank you a pleasure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I would definitely if somehow you wound up on
Speaker 1: this podcast and you didn't have a chance to read
Speaker 1: Michael story, I'd really encourage you to do it because
Speaker 1: it's a big deal for us to be publishing Michael
Speaker 1: and you know, on fire but Collective dot com and
Speaker 1: it's really this is a kind of reporting that we
Speaker 1: want to do on this platform and it's no holds
Speaker 1: barred and it's honest and it's real. So um, anyway,
Speaker 1: it's a highlight for us to have that. Thank you great.
Speaker 1: So all right, thanks for listening. We will be doing
Speaker 1: Fire Drill Podcast pretty much every day from from Tulsa,
Speaker 1: and please tune in for those This is Alan Schipnuk,
Speaker 1: that's Michael Bamberger. We're out of here. Thank you.