1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: What can of trains. 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm Joel Webber and I'm Eric balchunis. 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: Eric. The thing that we've talked about on the podcast 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: before every Halloween or so, we try and do an 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: ETF graveyard, which are things that liquidate, but we've actually 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 1: never talked to someone who's actually liquidated up on ETF, 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: and we are going to do so today. 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, the whole idea of how hard the ETF industry 9 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 3: camp a lot in the bitcoin ETF race, because. 10 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: You've long called this the ETF terror dome. 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the ETF terro dome. 12 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 3: So if you get a hundred million like some even 13 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 3: the like the eighth bitcoin TF is one hundred million, 14 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 3: I'm like, that's really good. Because it's a hard market. 15 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 3: Advisors are cost obsessed. Your performance out of the gate, 16 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 3: timing matters. There's a lot of variables, especially if you're 17 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 3: doing something other than a vanguardian cheap thing. Right. It's 18 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 3: interesting to find stories of people who took the chance, 19 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 3: you know, in this case, folded up. They gave it, 20 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 3: I don't know, five six years, tried everything they could, 21 00:00:57,560 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 3: the market went against them. 22 00:00:58,680 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 2: It was tough. 23 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 3: These stories I think have universal appeal because twenty five 24 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 3: percent of every ETF launch is closed, so your odds 25 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 3: are one in four of not making it, and especially 26 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 3: if you're smaller and it's your whole thing, right, Blackrock 27 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 3: and those guys can sustain the ETFs that don't. 28 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:16,639 Speaker 2: Sell for a while because they do all these other things. 29 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 3: But for an India issuer, this is you know, a 30 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 3: lot of your whole life gets poured into this ETF. 31 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 3: And these stories are really interesting to me. But I 32 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,480 Speaker 3: give everybody credit. It takes gut stroll to launch an 33 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 3: ETF because it's public. The performance is there every day, 34 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 3: you can't hide from it. It does take a lot 35 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 3: and it doesn't always work out, and that's why it 36 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 3: takes guts. 37 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 1: So we're gonna speak with Validia Capital Management, where we've 38 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: got Jack Foehand who's the president, and Justin Carmono who's 39 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 1: the partner. The name of the ETF was Validia Market Legends. 40 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: The ticker was va l X. If you like listening 41 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: to them, you can check out their podcast Access returns, 42 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: this time on Trillions inside a Liquidation. Jack, Justin, welcome 43 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: to trillions. 44 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 4: Thank you for having us, Hi guys. 45 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: Okay, So the ETF that we're going to talk about 46 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: is the validia market Legends ETF, which rip no longer. 47 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: When did it launch and when did it liquidate? 48 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 5: So launched in twenty fourteen and we liquidated it. It 49 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 5: h during the pandemic in twenty twenty. 50 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: Okay, and why what happened? 51 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 4: Well, were going going back to the beginning, I should, 52 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 4: There's a lot behind that. So we started. 53 00:02:35,120 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 5: You know, we're primarily quant investors, and you know, when 54 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 5: we look at like quant strategies that work over time, 55 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,079 Speaker 5: I think they tend to have a little bit of 56 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 5: a value. 57 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 4: Bent to them. 58 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 5: So we had seen going back like in twenty thirteen 59 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 5: when Cambria did shareholder yield, that ETF did really really well. 60 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 5: I mean Eric knows better than me, but it got 61 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 5: like three hundred million in assets pretty quickly. And you know, 62 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 5: the the ETF space, like in that space was much 63 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 5: less competitive back then. So in twenty fourteen we decided, 64 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 5: you know, we should do it, this idea of like 65 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 5: following the strategies of Legends. We thought we could market it. 66 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 5: You know, it was a good thing for our clients 67 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 5: from a tax efficiency standpoint. We thought we'd get some 68 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 5: outside capital. So we decided to give it a shot. 69 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:13,679 Speaker 2: So what does legends mean? What were the legends? 70 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 6: So the yeah, the idea is basically taking the publicly 71 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 6: disclosed investment methodologies from famous investors, but it's extended beyond 72 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 6: the likes of Born Buffet, Peter Lynch and Benjamin Graham 73 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,720 Speaker 6: and other strategies that have been written about in books 74 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 6: or academic papers and basically creating models that utilize those 75 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 6: strategies to select stocks. And so what the Market Legends 76 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 6: strategy specifically was doing is at the outset, we were 77 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 6: taking ten of those unique stock selection models and building 78 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 6: what was effectively one hundred stock portfolio that sat inside 79 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 6: the ETF rapper. So, and I think they're still around. 80 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 6: I remember Alpha Clone was out there, and there was 81 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 6: some other cloning strategies that exist, but they were using 82 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 6: thirteen as filings. So we thought we could maybe stand 83 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,480 Speaker 6: out from a strategy perspective by saying, Okay, we're capturing 84 00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 6: these fundamental strategies quantitatively and let's stack these models together 85 00:04:12,920 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 6: to create the actual portfolio for the ETF. 86 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: I mean that sounds like a good idea because it's like, Okay, 87 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: if we have these got people investors legends over time, 88 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: and you could kind of deduce what their strategies were 89 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,480 Speaker 1: and bring them into an ETF. We talked a lot 90 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,799 Speaker 1: about how ETFs can be like a vehicle for trades before. 91 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,280 Speaker 1: So when you launched, it must feel a little bit 92 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: like you got bottled lightning. What did it feel like 93 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: to bring this to market? 94 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, it was fun just learning like what goes on 95 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 5: behind the scenes to get it to market in the 96 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 5: first place was really cool because we knew nothing about that. 97 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 4: But yeah, you know, we thought we had a pretty 98 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 4: good opportunity. 99 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:45,839 Speaker 5: I mean, we had developed a pretty good plan in 100 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 5: terms of how we would do this, and obviously that 101 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 5: plan had to change a lot when we realized the 102 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 5: reality of the ETF market. But you know, we had 103 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 5: some of our own client money we were going to 104 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 5: put in there. We thought we had a good story. 105 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 5: We thought there was a good factor investing underpinnings and 106 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 5: what we were doing in terms of like exposure to 107 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 5: value and at that time turned out to be completely wrong. 108 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 5: But at that time we thought it was a great 109 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 5: time to invest in value. We thought value looked really attractive, 110 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 5: so we thought. 111 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 4: All that together gave us a shot. 112 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think we had any illusions that 113 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 5: it was going to be easy, but we thought we 114 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 5: had a decent chance well. 115 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 6: And I think one of the things that we realized 116 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 6: too that that was different for us because we were 117 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 6: running SMAs before that and we still do. But you know, 118 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:22,119 Speaker 6: when you come into the fund world, there's a whole 119 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 6: different set of compliance rules and regulation around performance. So 120 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 6: out of the gate, we couldn't show anyone any back 121 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 6: tested or hypothetical results, and so you know, we started 122 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 6: whatever it was December tenth of twenty fourteen, started tracking 123 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 6: the actual fund and it was always the question of 124 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 6: people liked the story, but it was like what is 125 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 6: the performance? And so you start with kind of a 126 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 6: day one with no performance, and then you have to 127 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 6: build it up, and just the first couple of years 128 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 6: for this type of strategy just was tough. So we 129 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 6: were always struggling in that sense too. 130 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: One of the things as an analyst, you brought up 131 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 3: Alpha Clone and then I also think of GURU and GVIP. 132 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 3: These are eachfs sort of look through thirteen F filings 133 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 3: to see what stock picks hedge funds have bought and sold, 134 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: and a lot of times these funds end up with 135 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 3: a lot of tech, so they do. Okay, I can't 136 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 3: say any of these have crushed it and been huge successes. 137 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 3: GURU had a little nice run there, GVP as a Goldman, 138 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 3: so I think some people like that brand, but they 139 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 3: haven't really like crushed it either in performance or flows. 140 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 2: But they've survived. 141 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 3: I think because they largely are in large cap us equities, 142 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 3: which have dominated. 143 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: You guys are in small value. 144 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 3: I guess as an analyst, I would have assumed this 145 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 3: was large cap, but you weren't looking through thirteen f's right, 146 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 3: and so as these market legends, what led you to 147 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: small value? Did you pick small value and then say 148 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 3: we're going to take these legends strategies and apply it 149 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 3: to small value or were the legends picking small value? 150 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 3: I guess I don't understand that. 151 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 4: No, it actually flowed through the strategies themselves. 152 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 5: So when you look at say Ben Graham's strategy, or 153 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 5: any of these strategies that have either a long term 154 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 5: track record on their own or follow people who have 155 00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 5: long term track records, these guys tend to be a 156 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 5: little more of value biased. And also when you run 157 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,799 Speaker 5: a strategy and you run it as an all cap strategy. 158 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 5: So you know, our universe was, say twenty seven hundred stocks, 159 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 5: give or take we can invest in. When you run 160 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 5: an equal weight strategy with twenty seven hundred stocks, the 161 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 5: natural thing is you're going to end up with much 162 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 5: more small cap exposure than say the S and P 163 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 5: five hundred, because one you're equal weighting, and two you're 164 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 5: picking from a much larger universe that has all those 165 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 5: small and midcaps, and you typically find more small, more 166 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 5: value in that small and MidCap area. So it was 167 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 5: just like a natural We didn't come out saying we 168 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 5: want to launch a small cap value ETF, but it 169 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 5: was like this natural progression from the type of strategy 170 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 5: we were running. 171 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: And how much experience did either of you have around 172 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: with ETFs before the launch? 173 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 6: Almost none, right, justin yeah, well, we were running SMAs 174 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 6: and we may have invested some of our client money 175 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 6: in ets, but in terms of like launching a ETS 176 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 6: and the inner workings of it, we basically did it 177 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 6: all internally. There's services out there now that you can 178 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,239 Speaker 6: kind of partner and white label, and those are great 179 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 6: for a lot of different shops. You know, we kind 180 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 6: of said we got our own exemptive release, We interfaced 181 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 6: with US Bank on the compliance and the trading jack 182 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 6: did all the custom custom creating redeems in terms of 183 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 6: sending those trades to the to the custodian, to the 184 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 6: brokerage firm or the trader. So yeah, So, I. 185 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: Mean there's hundreds of launches a year, thousands of ETFs 186 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: out there. What did you what do you think you 187 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: know now that you didn't know then about bringing an 188 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: ETF to market in terms of the success. 189 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 5: The biggest thing I think I know now is that, 190 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 5: going back to what Justin said before about about short 191 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 5: term performance, is that when you launch an ETF, you've 192 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 5: got your story, you've got your marketing, you've got all 193 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 5: that stuff. 194 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 4: But what you do in those. 195 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 5: First six months, that for a year, the first two years, 196 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 5: is a huge party or success, and it's something that 197 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 5: you cannot control. And so for us as a small 198 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 5: cap value manager, that ended up going the other way. 199 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 5: You know, we launched at the same time as Kathy 200 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 5: Wood or right right around the same time. That went 201 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 5: the you know, obviously in the positive way for her, 202 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 5: in the negative way for us. 203 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 4: But this is not an excuse for not working. 204 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 5: But that is like maybe not withindts, but with these 205 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 5: type of active strategies, people don't have any performance track 206 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 5: record to go on other than what you've put out 207 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 5: in the real world, and so they're going to judge 208 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 5: you by that, and that's going to be a big 209 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 5: part of your success. 210 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 4: And you know, in our case of our failure. 211 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: When did you get a sense that it wasn't going 212 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:24,160 Speaker 1: the way that you were most hoping for. 213 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 4: I guess it took. It took a little while. 214 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 5: We never had great performance because as you guys know, 215 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 5: small Cat Value coming out of twenty fourteen had many 216 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:31,679 Speaker 5: years where it didn't work. 217 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 4: But we did do okay. 218 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 5: I think we got to like thirty million and assets 219 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 5: at one point, so we crossed break even. So it 220 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 5: wasn't like it was a failure out of the gate 221 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 5: and it was just a disaster. It was like periods 222 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 5: of great optimism and we got up to thirty million, 223 00:09:42,920 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 5: were above break even, and then periods are great pessimism. 224 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 4: In twenty twenty was a great example of that. 225 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 5: You know, when the market was down thirty five percent 226 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 5: with small Cat value to cut in half, so you know, 227 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 5: I think our ATF went down to like fifteen million, 228 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 5: so it wasn't. 229 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 4: It was a back and forth justin. 230 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:57,440 Speaker 5: You may have some some you know, comments on that, 231 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 5: but it was got back and forth as it went. 232 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 6: No, I agree with all that. The only thing is 233 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 6: like at the low end COVID we had I think 234 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 6: it was like something like thirteen million in assets in 235 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 6: the fund and we had a six year track record 236 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 6: that it just wasn't good. And so as a business, 237 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 6: we kind of just had to say, like, we kind 238 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 6: of have to shut this thing down because you know, 239 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 6: kind of pulling out of this is going to be 240 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 6: tough now in retrospect, to be honest with you, those 241 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 6: types of stocks that we were owning and we were 242 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 6: part of what we did with the ETF. We actually 243 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 6: followed like a monthly rebalancing, so every month we were 244 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 6: rebalancing one tenth of the fund. So we were a 245 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 6: little bit more active in that sense. So during that 246 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 6: COVID decline, we were rebalancing and finding like more attractively 247 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 6: priced value stocks. That was just part of the process. 248 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,079 Speaker 6: And then kind of coming out of that, that kind 249 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 6: of stuff took off. But we shuttered the ETF I 250 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 6: think in like May of that year, so at least 251 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 6: the fundholders didn't get that. Now some of those clients' 252 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 6: assets moved back over to the SMA, so we were 253 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 6: fortunate in that sense. 254 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, so I'm curious, so you had the six 255 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: that's your track record, and just wondering, did you have 256 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: you kept a version of this strategy in place so 257 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: that you could kind of track what the strategy would 258 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,079 Speaker 1: be doing had it not been liquidated. 259 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, we actually continue to run it. 260 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 5: So for any of our clients that were in the ETF, 261 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 5: we basically moved them the day the ETF shut down 262 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 5: into an SMA strategy. There was actually a little bit 263 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 5: more aggressive focused, small cat value version of what the 264 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 5: ETF was that obviously did exceptionally well. And so you know, 265 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 5: for us, that was something that we questioned after the fact, 266 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 5: did we shut this ETF down at exactly the wrong time? 267 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 5: Because we basically shut it down at the COVID bottom 268 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 5: And as you guys know, small cat Value went on 269 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 5: to have a ridiculous run in the next year or two. So, yeah, 270 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 5: it did well, and you know, the clients that moved 271 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 5: to the SMAs did well. But you know, we always 272 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 5: have that question, you know, did we make. 273 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 6: The right choice that strategy that Jack's talking about kind 274 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 6: of tracks AVUV, but with a little bit more optane. 275 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 6: So the event to small cat value figned with kind 276 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 6: of more variation both to the up and downside. 277 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: Which by the way, is a pretty big hit. 278 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 3: Avantis has a pretty decent hit with that small value fund, 279 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: but it came out better timing. And it's interesting. It's 280 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:08,200 Speaker 3: always darkest before dawn. They literally closed it like four 281 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 3: in the morning, you know what I mean. They didn't 282 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 3: realize the sun was just about to rise. Ted Aronson, 283 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 3: who's a guy I interviewed for my Bogel book, he 284 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 3: also closed up at a similar time. There was a 285 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 3: couple shops who were just like, I don't get this market, 286 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 3: Like they almost had like an existential crisis, and they 287 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 3: were like, the hell with it, I'm done. And most 288 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 3: of them were value type investors, because value was supposed 289 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 3: to come back like three or four times, and it 290 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 3: would have like a couple months, but then growth would 291 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 3: just run it over again and again. Like Marshawn Lynch, 292 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 3: you know, the the cues would go beast mode, as 293 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 3: we say, and I want to ask about that. We 294 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 3: have been studying the cues and for us, we felt 295 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 3: like last year, the cues We're going to have like 296 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 3: a decade where small value and these other things were 297 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 3: going to do well, and the cues came back even though. 298 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 2: Rates were high. 299 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 3: I want to talk about the existential crisis that people 300 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 3: who are steeped in academic literature, who have mentors who 301 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: have taken CFAs and multiple degrees. You know, only one 302 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 3: manager on planet Earth has outperformed QQQ over fifteen years, 303 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 3: and it's this guy, Ron Barron. And he only did 304 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 3: it because he bought Tesla like fifteen years ago and 305 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 3: let it become like fifty percent of the portfolio, and 306 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 3: that was the only winning way to beat QQQ. Everybody 307 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 3: else underperformed it. And a lot of the training is, well, 308 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 3: these stocks look over valued, I should go into better deals. 309 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 3: How do you feel about that? Because all of the 310 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 3: academic literature and everything's pointing to looking at fundamentals and value, 311 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 3: and yet the cues just kind of runs it over 312 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: with these seven stocks leading the way. I guess I 313 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 3: want to talk about your mentality and your spirit as 314 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 3: this goes on year after year. 315 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 4: Yeah. 316 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 5: No, it's really really tough because, like you said, I mean, 317 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 5: if you look at value spreads or if you look 318 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 5: at any kind of data, someone like us behind the 319 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 5: scenes will look at to say, is value attractive? 320 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:55,960 Speaker 4: Is value cheap? 321 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 5: It's been that way, It's been cheap for a really 322 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 5: long time, and we have had a good on recently. 323 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 5: But like you said, it's nothing like what's going on 324 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 5: with the qqqs. But you know, ultimately this is something 325 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 5: you see throughout history. 326 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 4: There's two things with this. 327 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 5: One is this is something you've seen in other periods 328 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 5: in history, and value has always come back, So that 329 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 5: gives all of us that follow it optimism. But the 330 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 5: other thing we tend to say to a lot of 331 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 5: people is small cap value investing, particularly small cat value, 332 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 5: aggressive small cat value investing is not for your average investor, 333 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 5: or not for a lot of your average investors. 334 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 4: You have to be able to sit through these periods. 335 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 5: And you look at the period, say from two thousand 336 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 5: to two thousand and two, after you know a period 337 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 5: that ended in ninety nine where small cat value was awful, 338 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 5: you got ridiculous performance over a three year period. 339 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:39,239 Speaker 4: And that's kind of what the history. 340 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 5: Of value tells you, is that you get these long 341 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 5: periods where you struggle, you get outrageously good performance over 342 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 5: a very short period, and if you can't stick through 343 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 5: the long periods, you don't get the short period. So 344 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 5: for us, for people who look at data like you said, 345 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 5: I mean, we're very very optimistic about small cap value. 346 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 5: It's still exceptionally cheap. But also, like I think every 347 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 5: investor has to look themselves in the mirror and say, 348 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 5: can I sit through those kind of periods or maybe 349 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 5: as you've talked about ERIC a lot of like in 350 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 5: terms of how people size ARC and things like that, 351 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 5: you know, sizing small cat value is a smaller portion 352 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,040 Speaker 5: of your portfolio is probably a good idea because it 353 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 5: allows you to maybe sit through those kind of periods. 354 00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. 355 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 3: No, I remember one year we said that it was 356 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 3: q VAL, which is your colleague West Gray's ETF. We 357 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 3: thought that could be the next ARC because we're tobias 358 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 3: is because it was so concentrated and if the regime 359 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 3: changed that one should pop the most. Then we thought 360 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 3: it had ARC potential, but it never lasted long enough 361 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 3: to turn heads. It sort of needs to be like 362 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 3: over a year, you know, it has to like have 363 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 3: time to set in, and it just never got going. 364 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 3: I think the other question I have for you about 365 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 3: value is we had Kai wuh In here who runs 366 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 3: the it tan ETF. He's a you know, a quant 367 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 3: guy too, and he talks about intangible value, which is 368 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 3: like a lot of the numbers that all of the 369 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 3: quants look at. The dark matter that isn't measured is 370 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 3: the brands and the brand value, and there's the people 371 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 3: and this other stuff that makes the Magnificent seven and 372 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 3: the queues actually more justifiable, and the sort of beaten 373 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 3: up value stocks actually more justifiable where they are. In 374 00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: other words, that gap that you might measure that seems 375 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 3: like values obvious is actually more narrow because of the 376 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 3: intangible value not measured by the numbers. 377 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: Do you have any thoughts on that? 378 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,480 Speaker 5: Yeah? No, I think Kai is one hundred percent right. 379 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 5: We've actually had him on our podcast and talked about 380 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 5: this as well. If you look at a company like 381 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 5: say Microsoft, and you look at the price to book, like, 382 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 5: is Microsoft's valuation relative to its office buildings and whatever 383 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 5: physical things it has? Does that make any sense at all? No, 384 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 5: it doesn't make any sense. So it obviously makes sense 385 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 5: to adjust for its brand. It's technology like all that stuff. 386 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 5: And so I think, actually what Kai is doing is awesome, 387 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 5: and I think it's a great compliment to traditional value. 388 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 5: Another thing I would say, though in favor of traditional value, 389 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 5: is when you run like a very cheap small cap 390 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 5: value strategy, the types of companies you're investing in are 391 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 5: not the types of companies that have a lot of 392 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 5: intangible assets. So value does a better je of valuing 393 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 5: those kind of companies that are steel companies or whatever 394 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,160 Speaker 5: they are like that they don't have tons of intangible assets. 395 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 5: And so as much as like the christ to book 396 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 5: is way way off for Microsoft or Google, it's a 397 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 5: better valuation metric for those really cheap companies. But when 398 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 5: we had Kai on, he talked about the idea of 399 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 5: blending both, which is, if you have your traditional value, 400 00:17:19,080 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 5: taking this sort of new intangible based value and putting 401 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 5: them together in a portfolio can make a lot of 402 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 5: sense because we don't know which path the world's going 403 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 5: to take. We don't know if these other value companies 404 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 5: are going to come back or if these intangible companies 405 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 5: are going to continue to lead the way, so a 406 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 5: combination of them can make a lot of sense. 407 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 3: Okay, while we're on this sort of nerdy value talk, 408 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 3: I got to ask you about a report that I 409 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 3: was writing last week. We had the guy Tim Rittolo 410 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 3: on ETFIQ and this guy, you know how, you guys 411 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 3: launched after a horrible run for value and you thought, Okay, 412 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 3: it's good to launch after a bad back test because 413 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 3: then you have room to run if it goes up. 414 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,720 Speaker 3: I kind of dig that that makes sense to me. 415 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 3: You didn't get that run because it hasn't happened yet obviously, 416 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 3: but a lot of ETFs launch after a good back 417 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 3: test and then they actually go down. Studies have shown 418 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 3: that after it hits market generally there's an underperformance period 419 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 3: because they launched at the top. 420 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 2: This guy launched. 421 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,440 Speaker 3: The CTF detracts coal stocks, and as we know, cole 422 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,239 Speaker 3: stocks are just like demonized all over the place and 423 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 3: a lot of them are really just beaten up. But 424 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 3: if you dig into this, it's fascinating, Like they the 425 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 3: colestocks are on one hundred and seventy percent run, but 426 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 3: their price to earnings is still five, which is half 427 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 3: of their sector, which is the material sector, and the 428 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 3: S and P is like twenty five. 429 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 2: I think the queues is like forty. 430 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 3: And it's interesting to me as value investors when you 431 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 3: see something like this, you know, what's your take on that? 432 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 2: Have you ever seen that. 433 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 3: Much momentum and still that much deep value in one place? 434 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 5: I mean maybe not, But after the pandemic we kind 435 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 5: of saw that too, Like some of the pees at 436 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 5: the you know, for all value small cap value companies 437 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 5: coming off the you know, off the bottom of the pandemic, 438 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 5: we're ridiculously low. And then you got that run where 439 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 5: you had you on two hundred percent and they still 440 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 5: were pretty cheap. You know, we didn't see like value 441 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 5: spreads getting create or anything like that. We still saw 442 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 5: them on the cheaper end after that. So yeah, and 443 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 5: that's you know, studies have shown that's when you can 444 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 5: really get some really great performance, you know, when you 445 00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 5: can get value momentum together working together, like you know, 446 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 5: like your reference Wes Gray before like q mom became 447 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 5: actually a value ETF for a while. Then like you 448 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 5: had q valan q MOM looking very similar because value 449 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 5: was doing so well. So you can get some of 450 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 5: your best performance off periods like that. They just they 451 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 5: just don't happen that often. 452 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 6: Now I forget what year it was, but we got 453 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 6: caught in some energy names because the trailing twelve month 454 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 6: earnings were really high, but the price of oil had 455 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 6: fallen dramatically, so the forward earnings were coming way down, 456 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 6: and so our system was picking up these energy stocks 457 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 6: that looked like they were like incredible values. And I 458 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 6: think that hurt us. I forget if that was like 459 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 6: twenty fifteen or whenever, that was, whatever year, but I 460 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 6: think Jack, we we sort of modified some things coming 461 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 6: off of that with our value trap. We kind of 462 00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:02,360 Speaker 6: run a value trap negative screen to try to avoid 463 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 6: like really bad performers, like the worst five percent of 464 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 6: our universe. And I think that was a result of 465 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 6: those energy positions, if I'm remembering correctly. 466 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 3: Jack. 467 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 4: Yeah. 468 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 5: You know, one of the things anybody who does the 469 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,400 Speaker 5: type of value investing we do face is you're using 470 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 5: past fundamentals to try to predict the future. And so 471 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 5: what Justin's referencing with the value trap idea is, well, 472 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 5: what types of scenarios would those past results tell us 473 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 5: nothing about the future or tell us less about the future. 474 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 5: And that's the idea that if you own a bunch 475 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 5: of oil stocks and the price of oil just plummets, 476 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 5: well that's not in the past fundamentals yet so we 477 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,360 Speaker 5: try to do some adjustments around the edges. To say, right, 478 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 5: in a situation like that where the past fundamentals are 479 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 5: not as predictive, what other things can we use to 480 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:44,399 Speaker 5: try to enhance our strategy. 481 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: So I'm curious, knowing what you've known about ETFs now 482 00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: and this sort of baptism and exposure to like having 483 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: a great idea and the market not totally rewarding the 484 00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,959 Speaker 1: strategy at the time, and your conversations with financial advisor 485 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: and clients and everything else, how do you evaluate just 486 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: the ETF market as a whole now. I mean, there's 487 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: so many things there. Obviously Eric's brain is filled with them. 488 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: Normal people aren't like that, But like, how do you 489 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: when you look at the options that are out there, 490 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: how do you evaluate them now? And how has that 491 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: change from your experience? 492 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I would say it's even more crowded 493 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 5: and even tougher than when we started. And that was 494 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 5: one of the reasons why when we look at shutting 495 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 5: it down and say, well, you know, it was a 496 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,080 Speaker 5: mistake to shut it down because small. 497 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,399 Speaker 4: Cat value went on to do really well. 498 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 6: You know. 499 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 5: The other side of that coin is there were way 500 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 5: more small cap value ETFs in twenty twenty when we 501 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 5: shut it down, than there weren't twenty fourteen. So it's 502 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 5: just it's a very like Eric, what you call it, 503 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 5: what the terror Dome, Eric, Right, it's a you know, 504 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 5: it's just a much more competitive space. It's a tough space, 505 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 5: and we knew that going in, but I think it 506 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 5: got a lot tougher as it went on. 507 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 6: When we were trying to get the ETF up on 508 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 6: some platforms, we went into UBS down and I think 509 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 6: it was Jersey City or something like that, where their 510 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 6: ETF due diligence team was, and we kind of pitched 511 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 6: them on the market legends ETF and they were looking 512 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 6: at it and they were asking us questions about our 513 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 6: firm and the strategy and stuff, and then they're like, 514 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,800 Speaker 6: what are your plans on launching other ETFs? And we 515 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 6: sort of at the time we were like, well, we're 516 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 6: putting on because we were funding this on their own money, 517 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 6: so we said we're putting all of our resources behind 518 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 6: this ETF. But in retrospect, now that we kind of 519 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 6: know everything and how it all shook out, like I 520 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 6: could see how a firm like UBS would want to 521 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 6: see a firm like ours launching multiple strategies, and if 522 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 6: we would have launched a value strategy, a growth strategy, 523 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,080 Speaker 6: maybe something using momentum or something like that, I don't 524 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 6: know what. You can slice and dice a lot of 525 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 6: our stock selection strategies in a lot of different ways. 526 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,359 Speaker 6: So it's I can see why they were asking that question, 527 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 6: and we kind of got it wrong. Like what we 528 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 6: should have done out of the gate, if we had 529 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 6: the capital to do it was probably launched two or 530 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 6: three of these things, because maybe the growth one would 531 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 6: have took off, the value one would have lingered there, 532 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 6: but you could have used the growth profits to stay 533 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 6: in the game long term for the value one to 534 00:22:56,720 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 6: eventually see see the data. 535 00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 3: And also if you let's say you get thirty million 536 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 3: in the growth the nobody else bought it, it would 537 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 3: it might have doubled to sixty just on the market performance, 538 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 3: which helps you stay in business. It's interesting them and 539 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 3: Kathy having this sort of like launch date where they 540 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 3: both thought they were right. Kathy happened to get the performance. 541 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 3: Not to say either the both ideas were completely logical 542 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,199 Speaker 3: and genuine, but it's just interesting and both went all in. 543 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 3: I mean, she doesn't have any value hedge, that's for sure. 544 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 3: She doesn't just doesn't believe in it. Could you guys 545 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 3: even launch your growth stocks or is that just against 546 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 3: your like, I don't know, like being to be into 547 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 3: high growth. 548 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 4: No, not at all. 549 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 5: We have strategies that are growth, We have momentum, We 550 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 5: have all kinds of strategies. They just tend to have 551 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 5: a bias if you look at them all as a whole, 552 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 5: they tend to have a bias towards value. But no, 553 00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:45,479 Speaker 5: we could have done that, And to Justin's point, I mean, 554 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 5: that might have been the best way is to have 555 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 5: you know, you see that a lot. I think with 556 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 5: ETF launches, people will kind of do both ends of 557 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 5: the spectrum so that you're at least gonna win on 558 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 5: one side of it. 559 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 4: So that might have been something we should have done. 560 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 1: We haven't talked about artificial intelligence, which, if there were 561 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: ever a buzzy word or phrase, it feels like it's 562 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: succeeded all rational expectations already when you look at what's 563 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: capable of investing, also at the companies that are obviously 564 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: becoming increasingly involved and invested in this space. Is there 565 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: a moment that any of this looks like value or 566 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,200 Speaker 1: is it just all speculation and growth stiff. 567 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 4: I mean, there's a couple sides to AI. 568 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 5: There's there's like the market impact of it, and there's 569 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 5: kind of what's going on behind the scenes. So we're 570 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 5: starting to play with it in terms of, you know, 571 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 5: it can be useful in value, in terms of maybe 572 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 5: you actually constructing value strategies. You know, for us, with 573 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 5: our bias is value is value investors. You know, it's 574 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 5: hard for us to see like those types. 575 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 4: It's hard for us to invest in those types of companies. 576 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 5: And you know, the thing about growth too, and especially 577 00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 5: early stage growth, is quant strategies do not work well 578 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,959 Speaker 5: at all because you most of if you look at 579 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 5: the AI type compmpanies right now, most of them will 580 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 5: not do well. The basket of them probably will not 581 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 5: do well, but there'll be just some outrageous, massive winners 582 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 5: in there. And that's where the growth people, the people 583 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 5: that are good at growth investing, the venture guys, the 584 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 5: growth investors, they do a really good job of being 585 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,919 Speaker 5: able to figure out what those companies are like. We 586 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 5: can't apply a quant screen right now to those types 587 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 5: of companies and say here are going to be the winners. 588 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 4: It just doesn't work. 589 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 5: So we don't exist that much in that space because 590 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 5: our types of quant strategies don't work very well there. 591 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 6: Just from an investment standpoint, there are some I mean, 592 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 6: we don't do any of this, but Doug Clinton over 593 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:34,399 Speaker 6: at deep Water, he's Gene Munster's partner. They're building these 594 00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 6: and tracking these indexes, broad based market indexes that are 595 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:45,520 Speaker 6: waiting companies based on sort of looking at their I 596 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 6: guess fundamentals through the lens of AI and then trying 597 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 6: to let the AI create sort of the better index 598 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 6: versus market cap weighted And I think they started tracking 599 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,399 Speaker 6: that at some point last year. So obviously they've got 600 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 6: along ways to go in terms of when the performance 601 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,680 Speaker 6: becomes meaningful. But you know, you're starting to see some 602 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 6: strategies be created using using AI. The only thing that 603 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 6: I wonder with that is, you know, if you feed chat, 604 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 6: GPT or some AI engine, I don't know, thirty years 605 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 6: of fundamental data and ask it to create a strategy 606 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,520 Speaker 6: and you get this like great back test, It's like, well, 607 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,639 Speaker 6: is that just maybe a big exercise and just data 608 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,080 Speaker 6: mining and doesn't make sense? And is it likely to 609 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 6: work going forward, but they're starting to in the academic world. 610 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 6: There's been some research where some of the academics we've 611 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 6: actually had in our podcasts are finding things using AI 612 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:43,919 Speaker 6: and machine learning. And it's almost like the mindset is 613 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 6: it almost doesn't matter why it works. The fact that 614 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 6: it works is it works. And so it's kind of 615 00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 6: a weird thing, like we tend to be grounded in 616 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 6: like first principles and why value investing should work, or 617 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 6: why growth at reasonable price investing, or why quality companies 618 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 6: should compound and over time, but the AI is kind 619 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 6: of bringing us a little bit in a different direction. 620 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 3: Real quick about you guys have small value. You guys 621 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 3: are the quants, and I'm friends with the quants. I 622 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 3: met you Justin at West Gray's Marines March for the Fallen, which, 623 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 3: by the way, this guy Justin is iron Man. Like 624 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 3: there's a lot of iron Man in the quant world. 625 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 3: They love to work out. This guy's like the top guy. 626 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 3: I think he did the race like in half the 627 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 3: time I did, or something like that. You still do 628 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 3: you do Ironman? 629 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:31,160 Speaker 2: Run? Still? 630 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,679 Speaker 6: No, I'm just just just a runner and rocking when 631 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 6: I can. I have I didn't do Wes's I didn't 632 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 6: do the marsh for the fallen last year. It's it's tough, 633 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 6: that's that's pretty brutal, but it's it's so good and 634 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 6: it's so good to get out there and just work hard, 635 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 6: and I. 636 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 3: Was impressed by you. Okay, so these quants. I have 637 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 3: a theory that part of the other thing going on 638 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 3: with the quant world is that you've got the ETFs 639 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 3: coming out from themes and even track metrics, so metrics specific. 640 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 3: So for example, the free cash flow yield ETF, CAF 641 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 3: and cows have gotten billions. I mean, the flows into 642 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,960 Speaker 3: these are ridiculous. They tend to lean value. Then you've 643 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 3: got something like natural resources ETFs, which is now the 644 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 3: biggest thematic category you open up the hood, it's largely value. 645 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:20,040 Speaker 3: What do you think of this idea that just sort 646 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 3: of slapping on different names to ETFs actually is maybe 647 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 3: part of how to sell value going forward, as opposed 648 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 3: to just calling it value. 649 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 6: I mean that sort of makes sense to me because 650 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 6: I mean I think people those themes and ideas and narratives, 651 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 6: you know, can make it more understandable, maybe make it 652 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 6: more sellable. You kind of get off the value train, 653 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 6: and it's more like, Okay, we're going to look to 654 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 6: capitalize on this theme in the market or trend. I 655 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 6: could certainly see that for sure. 656 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 5: There's just so many You've seen so many ETFs with 657 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 5: like small cap value or whatever in their name. It 658 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 5: probably is good to try something different because going back 659 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 5: to our own experience, like and you compared us to 660 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 5: Kathy would before, it wasn't just the performance that she 661 00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 5: did better than us. She is master of marketing. The 662 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 5: stuff she talks about for the future and the fifty 663 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 5: percent GDP growth and all that stuff. I mean, she 664 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 5: is really really good at that, and you know we're 665 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 5: not as good. So you know that that is something 666 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 5: we probably could have figured out. Is maybe if we 667 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 5: had wrapped it, if we had named it differently, or 668 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 5: we'd wrapped it in a different way, maybe it would 669 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 5: have done better. 670 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, we joke on the team sometimes they just have 671 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 3: these companies that make money or stuff you really need 672 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 3: in life, just you know, because her stuff is all 673 00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 3: like you know, electronic and robots and I don't know, 674 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 3: just like getting back to basics, you know, Joel, like 675 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 3: that just seemed to and that actually worked In twenty 676 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 3: twenty one for a little bit, right, some of the 677 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 3: those names actually became popular companies that had a lot 678 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: of cash. It all of a sudden became like fundamentals 679 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 3: matter for a brief moment there. 680 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: Well, I'm just curious, do you ever think that you'll 681 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: do an ETF again or was this a one and 682 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: done and stick to SMAs from now on. 683 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,239 Speaker 4: I think it's I think it's unlikely. It would be 684 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 4: my answer to it. 685 00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 5: I just think it's a tough I mean, if we 686 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 5: ever have a ton of success in the business, then 687 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 5: we want to try it again. Maybe, But it's just 688 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 5: going back to what I said before. It's just a 689 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 5: really really tough space right now, and it is. There 690 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 5: are people like say Simplify as an example, there are 691 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 5: people who are finding things that are white space, things 692 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,640 Speaker 5: that are very different than anybody else is offering. But 693 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 5: for us in the quant space, whether it's quant value 694 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 5: or quant momentum, I mean, there. 695 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 4: Are some really really great cheap funds. 696 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:29,760 Speaker 5: Also, if you look at something like q val, which 697 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 5: you mentioned before, when we started, qu vow's fee was 698 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 5: probably twice what it is now. So just to show 699 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 5: how much fees have compressed. So even if we had 700 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 5: a great idea, it would be very hard to execute it. 701 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 5: From the perspective, we'd probably start with a break even 702 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 5: that was double than what our break even was when 703 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 5: we did the first time. 704 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: All right, Jack fourhand, justin Garbload. Thank you so much 705 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: for joining us on Trillions. 706 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 4: Thank you for having us. 707 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 7: Thanks guys, thanks for listening to Trillions until next time. 708 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 7: You can find us on the Bloomberg Terminal, Bloomberg dot com, 709 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 7: Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever else you'd like to listen. 710 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,880 Speaker 7: We'd love to hear from you. We're on Twitter, I'm 711 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 7: at Joel Webber Show. 712 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: He's at Eric Baltunas. 713 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:20,440 Speaker 7: This episode of Trillions was produced by Magnus Hendrickson. Bye.