1 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: Welcome to Strictly Business Varieties weekly podcast featuring conversations with 2 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: Cynthia Littleton, business editor for Variety Today. My guest in 4 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: New York is John Slaws, founder and principle of Senetic Media. 5 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,600 Speaker 1: John has negotiated every kind of deal and navigated every 6 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: aspect of the independent film business, from lining up financing 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:36,520 Speaker 1: to advising and marketing and awards campaigns. Today, he's expanded 8 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: the company's per view to include television development, talent management, 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: and a branded content joint venture with filmmaker David Gordon Green. 10 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:50,400 Speaker 1: In this wide ranging discussion, Slaws explains why he somewhat bombastically, 11 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: as he says, see Senetic as a media conglomerate for 12 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: the twenty first century. This interview took place in Senetics 13 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: offices in Chelsea on March eleven. It was my last 14 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: in person appointment before Variety shifted to a work from 15 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: home mandate. In light of the coronavirus crisis. Please everyone, 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: let's stay safe and let's all keep doing our part 17 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: to flatten the curve and save lives. John Slaws, principle 18 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: of Senetic, Thank you so much for making time for 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: us today. My pleasure tell me, John, you and the 20 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: company are well well established in the indie film world. 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: John Slaws has become synonymous with smart, intelligent management of film, properties, 22 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: of talent, of getting getting things done in the in 23 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: the heat of festival bidding wars, for sure. But in 24 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: the of late you have been expanding into other areas. Yes, 25 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: we have. Let's talk about that compliment. I shouldn't let 26 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: that go on recognice it is well earned. Yes, so 27 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 1: we have expanded. Um, we are very much at the 28 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 1: moment pushing the development of our management company. Uh. And 29 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: we can talk more about that over time. Uh. Also 30 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: last year David Gordon Green celebrated filmmaker and commercials director 31 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: and I started a company called Brand New Story which 32 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: is meant to sit at the intersection of brand messaging 33 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: and long form storytelling, sort of promoting the development of 34 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: that uh phenomenon. And I also be happy to talk 35 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:34,920 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, I definitely want to because that it 36 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: Obviously that is a growing business. And also you have 37 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 1: ventured into the more episodic realm television and digital content 38 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: like everybody else. We are we are fully on that bandwagon. 39 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: As the sort of distinction between um episodics and singular 40 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: features blurs. It would seem like, you know, it's for 41 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 1: the content business that is is pretty much exploding right now. 42 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 1: To to not look at other opportun you know, look 43 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: at these expanding opportunities would seem to be which seemed 44 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: to be remissed for somebody who was so adept at, 45 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: you know, handling these kinds of things. From the moment, 46 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: Ted Serrando's informed me that he was going to be 47 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: dropping an entire season of House of Cards at once, 48 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: and I told him he was insane. Uh uh, I 49 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: think the world has had to rethink the length of 50 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: narrative stories and uh and whether something told over eleven 51 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: hours is uh significantly different than something told over a 52 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 1: hundred minutes, and whether really in a way it's the 53 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: same thing. And to be in the service business facilitating 54 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,240 Speaker 1: those kinds of stories, you have to be as um 55 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 1: uh fluent in in episodics as you do in standalone features. 56 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: Is there something about I mean, is it just the 57 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: expansion of the marketplace? Is there something about this moment 58 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: of television that made you want to get into this 59 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 1: space for the first time? I mean, it is again, 60 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: the idea that that stories would be told a half 61 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: hour an hour a week over over a series of 62 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: weeks never seen that particularly interesting to me. The idea 63 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,280 Speaker 1: that a narrative story can be told over eleven hours, 64 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: that you can watch for eleven hours straight, uh, is 65 00:04:26,640 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: not only attractive to storytellers, but it was attractive to 66 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,039 Speaker 1: me as well and caused me to sort of reframe 67 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: my judgment of episodics, and um, my feeling is a 68 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: narrative is a narrative, whether it's seven minutes long or 69 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 1: twelve or twelve hours long. And I'm in the business 70 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: of facilitating world class storytellers, and the distinction between these 71 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 1: enforced time periods was really a sort of twentieth century 72 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 1: analog limitation that no longer exists. It is a brave 73 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: new world, certainly for the for the content business, which 74 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, we didn't even use that phrase, you know, 75 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: not too many years ago. Tell me, I want to 76 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: talk about about the expansion in some of the partnerships 77 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: you've set up. But let me ask kind of the 78 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: Devil's advocate question, is are you expanding in other areas 79 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: because you're your traditional business of films is contracting you 80 00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: are a devil UM or there's too much. There's two 81 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: answers to that question. Yes, UM. Ten years ago or 82 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 1: so uh. We there began a diaspora from Syenetic of 83 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: of smart executives who went out into the world and 84 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: several of them went to agencies, and one of the 85 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: first things they told these agencies is Senetic is a 86 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: great business selling completed films, and we represent the talent 87 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,239 Speaker 1: that's in those completed films. And it's a very small 88 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: step from you, mr talent agent down the hall, from 89 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: me supplying an actor to a film to you saying, oh, 90 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 1: by the way, I will put this actor in a 91 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: film as long as our finance and sales group can 92 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: sell it. There began the movement of the major talent 93 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: agencies encroaching on the on the realm of the traditional 94 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: realm of the sales agent UM, and it got to 95 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: the point where for scripted features, we were largely knocked 96 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: out of the UM market by agencies who were locking 97 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 1: these films up at the casting stage. UM. It used 98 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: to be that we would look at films a year 99 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: submitted to Sundance and have our pick of what to sell, 100 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 1: and that evolved. So yes, to say that uh caused 101 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: us to be you know, agile and to pivot on 102 00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: our sort of world class Uh, you know advisory services 103 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: in different directions would be a fair statement. Um. But 104 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 1: also a lot of things have happened over the past 105 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 1: twenty years that have created a new ecosystem for people 106 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: in our position with the kind of skill sets we 107 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: have to help facilitate storytelling outside the traditional system. You 108 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: set up last October, you set up a content a 109 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: development partnership with a big unscripted production sort of a 110 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: conglomerate of unscripted banners All three Media, which has a 111 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: big presence in the US and and is based in 112 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: the UK. Tell me how that Tell me how that 113 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:46,240 Speaker 1: deals works. Um. It is full on. It is working 114 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: um a hundred miles an hour right now. We've got 115 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: a bunch of projects in the process of being developed. Uh. 116 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: It is a new experience for me because I feel 117 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: like I've always um avoided the idea of of deploying 118 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,679 Speaker 1: money on our own behalf. I've never sought to raise 119 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: a production fund. UM. I've always felt that we are 120 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: agnostic and we can access all sorts all forms of 121 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: financing on behalf of our clients UM and to then 122 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: compete with those forms of financing by having our own 123 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 1: uh fund uh uh would create a complicated situation. So 124 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: the idea of having a development fund, which is what 125 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: we do have as you rightly identified it with All three, 126 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 1: which is a great organization. UM. It feels like a 127 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 1: different um relationship with with our clients who's whose stories 128 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: were developing through this fund. And I've had to sort 129 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: of grapple with that and and get comfortable with it. 130 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,440 Speaker 1: And that's interesting because you mentioned clients that goes into 131 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: another area of expansion for you that has been it's 132 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: not brand new. You said about seven years ago you 133 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 1: ventured into the talent the artist management business. So in 134 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: terms of the deals that the stuff that you're developing 135 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: with All three is that for clients that are on 136 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: the talent management side or people that you work with 137 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: on on other content. You know, because of all the 138 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: different areas we have. We have a law firm, we 139 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 1: have this management company, we have a consulting company, uh. 140 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: We we have a finance group, we have a sales group. 141 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: We see so many different stories, whether it's for the 142 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: filmmakers we work with, whether it's just I p that 143 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: that comes across our screen. Um uh, and we uh 144 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: we have always historically parceled it out to financiers and 145 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 1: to other producers, and our feeling was maybe we should 146 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: uh help those opportunities developed further, that we could be 147 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,319 Speaker 1: doing a service for everyone and sort of maintain our 148 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: position in the process, you know, um more solidly. And UM. 149 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: Like I said, it's not typically what we've done historically, 150 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 1: but because we see all these opportunities and because we'd 151 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: like to help them push them forward, this felt like, um, 152 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: it could make sense. How has it been for you 153 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: in this process and developing things with all three? It 154 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: sounds like you're more at the ground floor of projects. 155 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: How is that working for the company? I mean, it's 156 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: interesting we were approached by all three about this. This 157 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: would this would would have never happened if Tim Pastor, 158 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 1: who I had worked with when we were consulting for 159 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: National Geographic, went over to run all three American Yeah, 160 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: and he approached me with us idea because I think 161 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: he saw how many stories and how many people we 162 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:02,400 Speaker 1: acted on behalf of and made this suggestion. Um. But 163 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: also at the same time last year we put the 164 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: financing together for green Book, and green Book was a 165 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: project that we had no connection to beforehand. Not no 166 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: one we worked with was attached to it. It was 167 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: just a script that one of the producers sent us 168 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: and said, we know you have a financing group. Um 169 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: you uh, the agency that's looking after this isn't really 170 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,439 Speaker 1: focused on it. Can you help us get it financed? 171 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: And we took it out and we got it financed, um, 172 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: and we sort of stepped back and let it go 173 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: out into the world. And I think it gave us 174 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: pause and said, well, you know, maybe if we had 175 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:44,960 Speaker 1: the ability to develop it with our resources internally, we 176 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: could have been more fully attached to it when it 177 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: went out into the world, rather than just sort of 178 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: handing it off to a set of financiers. Um. So 179 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: those two things happening at the same period, I think 180 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: really pushed us over the top and said, let's give 181 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: this develop a uh fund idea to try. And when 182 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:07,079 Speaker 1: you say development fund, is that designed to give you more? 183 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 1: Is that designed to give you more ownership than you 184 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:13,559 Speaker 1: would if it was a more traditional producer like overall 185 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,440 Speaker 1: deal relationship with between your company and all three. I mean, 186 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: I don't think it gives us as much ownership as 187 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: if we were full full time on set producers. But 188 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: it's clearly designed to give us more ownership than we 189 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: have historically had as a as a pure representative. Let's 190 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: talk about brand new story. That's also you know, it 191 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: sounds like a pretty big departure from what you have 192 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: done in the past. Yeah, I mean brand new story. 193 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 1: This This sort of came out of a one on 194 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 1: one conversation I had at a Winston Baker conference three 195 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:45,679 Speaker 1: years ago with David Gordon Green where we were just 196 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:50,280 Speaker 1: sort of riffing. And I've always admired David. He is 197 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: a world class filmmaker and he has a world class 198 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: commercials director. And an observation that we made as simple 199 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: and uh and uh sort of overly simplistic as I 200 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: guess this would be, is that there are two essential 201 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,079 Speaker 1: things occurring um at the same time in the world. 202 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: And one is that um uh brands are having a 203 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: harder time. Well, let me let me step back. One 204 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: is that we're approaching a world where nobody is going 205 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: to do anything, even for thirty seconds that they don't 206 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: want to do. So the notion of making people watch 207 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: commercials that they don't want to watch is something that 208 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: that is quickly fading away, and so brands are scrambling 209 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: to uh, you know, keep their their message and there 210 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: they're sort of brand awareness front and center in the consumers. 211 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: And if they can't do it by buying uh their 212 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: attention for thirty seconds at a time, they need to 213 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 1: find um other ways to do it. UM. And at 214 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 1: the same time, UH consumers, younger consumers are interested in 215 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: knowing what the values of a brand are. Something that 216 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: wasn't intuitive to me but has become more um clear 217 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: as i've you know, embarked on this venture, is that 218 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: brand values actually are a thing and they they matter 219 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: to UM, at least a newer generation of consumers. What 220 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: does a brand stand for? So they will sit and 221 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: watch a piece of content that elucidates what, well, this 222 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: is the question. So so there's that happening. And at 223 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: the same time, you know, the media companies that are 224 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 1: living and dying strictly by consumption of content are going 225 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: to be increasingly challenged. So the question is, um can 226 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: brands with double bottom lines? And I start of was 227 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: first made aware of this when I made a couple 228 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: of films with Amazon who basically sort of pioneered the 229 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,720 Speaker 1: double bottom line with with Amazon Prime. I mean, they 230 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: want to drive eyeballs to Amazon Prime because they know 231 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: those eyeballs are also going to buy toilet paper while 232 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: they're an Amazon Prime. So, so is there a vision 233 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: of the future for a studio that is really a 234 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: consumer brand that knows its audience, that maybe can learn 235 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: very quickly how to tell stories, and whose stories can 236 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: then embody brand messages and and keep the brand front 237 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: and center with consumers. You know, essential to this is 238 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: the understanding that, as I said before, that people aren't 239 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 1: going to spend a second watching content that doesn't entertain it. 240 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 1: You have to earn people's attention. So as long as 241 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: brands understood that they had to entertain first and convey 242 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: brand messaging and value second, then there's a real opportunity 243 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: out there. So David and I we had this conversation 244 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 1: and we sort of evolved this thinking and said, well, 245 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: brands are sort of stumbling in the dark, not sort 246 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: of knowing what the next iteration beyond commercials is and 247 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: keeping their brand out there. We as storytellers and as 248 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: someone who especially David, who understands the way brands think 249 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: um can help pull them towards this sort of longer 250 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: form storytelling, while at the same time we are credible 251 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: to a whole group of storytellers and filmmakers who are 252 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: suspicious of brands and what their motivations are. I feel 253 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: like it's going to be a thinly veiled, just NonStop commercial, 254 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: dred and twenty minute commercial, which, as we said before, 255 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: we'll be watched by no one. So, um, can we 256 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: sit in the middle between these suspicious world class storytellers 257 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: and these you know, brands that are looking for a 258 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: way to stay relevant and in people's minds and usher 259 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: them towards a newer future where they are content creators. 260 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,400 Speaker 1: Have you pitched that to like blue chip advertisers. We've 261 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: pitched it to blue chip Yes. Consumer companies, not advertising agencies, 262 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: are caught in a tricky situation. Advertising agencies in this 263 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: regard and there I think scrambling to adapt to this 264 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 1: as well. Um, But we we spend a lot of 265 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: time pitching it to consumer brands and we're getting a 266 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of uptake on it. Hi, it's Andrew Wallenstein, 267 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 1: the other half of the Strictly Business podcast. I want 268 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: to tell you about my new venture called Variety Intelligence Platform. 269 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: It's a new subscribers only section to Variety dot com 270 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: that digs deep into the trends and issues that matter 271 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: most to media professionals. We do that with a mix 272 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: of special reports on everything from streaming wars to production incentives, 273 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: along with daily commentary weighing in on the latest industry developments. 274 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: So check it out at Variety dot com. Slide V, 275 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: I P and I'd like to extend a special thank 276 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 1: you to our launch partner, Pluto TV, the leading free 277 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: streaming TV service in America. It sounds like you've got 278 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 1: you've got a lot of kind of you know, burgeoning 279 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: activity that must be kind of exciting for you as 280 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: a as a leader. I mean it is, uh what 281 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 1: I the one thing that's sort of if there's if 282 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: there's an overriding uh ethos or theme to what we're 283 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 1: trying to do here. Uh, it's very simple. I I 284 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: somewhat bombastically but somewhat seriously referred to us as the 285 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:43,240 Speaker 1: first media conglomerate of the twenty one century. UM. The 286 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 1: twentieth century was about studios and the networks. Uh, and 287 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: they controlled the physical plant. They controlled UM the capital, 288 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: they actually took time to develop storytelling, and they had 289 00:18:58,119 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: a shared monopoly on delivery um and everybody had to 290 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: sort of serve them because of it. The agencies were 291 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:11,199 Speaker 1: oriented to to make content with them. The talent was 292 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: waiting to be employed by them. Uh, you know, systematically, 293 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: one by one, Uh, those organizations have surrendered these elements 294 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: of control. They no longer have um, a shared monopoly 295 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,199 Speaker 1: over delivery. They don't use their own money anymore, they 296 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: don't bother to develop anymore. UM. So the question is 297 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 1: where does that leave the realm of storytelling? And our 298 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: observation was the scarest resource in this new environment are 299 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: the creators. And the creators have available to them all 300 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: the tools that will enable them to create content, to 301 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:51,679 Speaker 1: own it, if that makes sense, and to supervise the 302 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: dissemination out into the world. Um And Uh, what we've 303 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: tried to do with this company was to create a 304 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: set of world class services that can basically surround scalable 305 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: creators on a three D and sixty degree basis with 306 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 1: every business component they need in order to just sit 307 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: in a room and create, whether it's putting financing together, 308 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: whether it's sales, whether it's our marketing group, which we 309 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,120 Speaker 1: haven't even talked about, which is extraordinary and you know, 310 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: basically was instrumental in winning uh neon Best Picture with 311 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 1: Parasite this year. UM. Whether pretty good run. Yeah, we're 312 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: we're in a role UM, whether it is uh the 313 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: consulting group UH you know as we or we say management, 314 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: we are we are organized to basically take creators who 315 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: are working at the highest level and who are scalable, 316 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: who want to sort of you know, go out into 317 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,879 Speaker 1: the world with any number of creations, UM on any level, 318 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,360 Speaker 1: whether it's I said, seven minutes stories or eleven hour stories, 319 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,239 Speaker 1: and and optimize their opportunities. Tell them they come to us, 320 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: we say here the ten different ways you can finance this. 321 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: Here the ways you can um put it out into 322 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 1: the world in terms of platforms or or distribution mechanisms. 323 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: You know, here's a marketing group who can make sure 324 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: that when you've handed it off to someone else, you 325 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: can stay involved and oversee the its dissemination out into 326 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: the world. I mean, that's the idea behind the company, 327 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 1: and to me, that's what a media conglomerate's gonna look 328 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: like in the twenty one century. Someone who facilitates for 329 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: the creators who are finally going to sort of realize 330 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: their inherent power and largely own their own content. Um, 331 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: it's hearing you talk about all this is so fascinating 332 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: at a time when we know that Hollywood's largest talent 333 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: agencies are in what's become nearly a year long battle 334 00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: with the Writer's Guild, which represents the people where the 335 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: you know where the where it all starts, the people 336 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: that the screenwriters. How has I mean, has that has 337 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: that breach that has happened with so many writers you know, 338 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,240 Speaker 1: formally leaving their agents? Has that? Do you think is 339 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:19,120 Speaker 1: that created opportunities? Well? I mean, look at we work 340 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 1: very closely with the agencies and many of the people, 341 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: if not all, the people we manage, have agents. Um, 342 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: and we're not looking to be opportunistic at a time 343 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: when the agencies and the writers are sort of trying 344 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: to sort out differences between them. But there's a simple, 345 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: inescapable fact with regard to the agencies is that the 346 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: large town agencies are largely owned by private equity companies, 347 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: and the pressure on returns from private equity companies has 348 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 1: forced these agencies to look beyond the traditional representation model 349 00:22:54,400 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 1: and UM that I think creates opportunities UM for sophisticated 350 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,880 Speaker 1: UM representatives to come in. I mean, agencies are great. 351 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: They have a breath of knowledge of the marketplace that 352 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: we can't possibly have. But they also have two thousand 353 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: clients each. So the question is if their knowledge is 354 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: across this horizontal mass of data and information and ours 355 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 1: is more vertical in the ability to have many fewer clients, 356 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: but to be more immersive on on also a sort 357 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,159 Speaker 1: of sophisticated level equal to the agencies on behalf of 358 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: those clients. You know, is there an opportunity in the 359 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: management realm? And we've decided absolutely. Can you point to 360 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: a win or a success story for any of your 361 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: recent success story for any of your talent management clients? 362 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: I mean, we we work very closely with Richard link Letter, 363 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:59,119 Speaker 1: and you know, his career has been a continual success story. UM. 364 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: You know it's not a secret that UM I put 365 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: together the financing model for Boyhood which enabled him to 366 00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 1: make a film over twelve years, convincing I f C 367 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: that this was that this was a good thing, which 368 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 1: it turned out to me that that they should invest 369 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 1: in something that they can't begin to see a return 370 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: on for twelve years, and they ended up getting an 371 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: incredibly handsome return on their investment. But I'm very proud 372 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: of my association with Richard link Letter, and I always 373 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 1: point to that. You know, I think Green Book is 374 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,480 Speaker 1: a is a classic example of how Senetic works at 375 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: its best. Um, we we you know, we didn't write this. 376 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 1: The script came to us written. Uh. Pete Fairley said 377 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,359 Speaker 1: he wanted Hershel Ally and Vigo Mortenson in it, and 378 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: we said, if you get those guys to commit, we 379 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: will get it financed. And we did. Um, and he 380 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 1: went made a beautiful movie. And what we did is 381 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: we stayed involved with it on a granular level for 382 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,040 Speaker 1: six months after the release to try and win an 383 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: Academy Award for Best Picture. And Uh, personally, I learned 384 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: a lot from losing with Green Book with I'm Sorry 385 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: with Boyhood that we then put in our service in 386 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,000 Speaker 1: this sort of strategy effort for a green Book that 387 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 1: that worked out. Um, tell us how the parasite relationship 388 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: came through, because that that is such a such a 389 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: wonderful kind of out of nowhere, you know, rags to 390 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: riches success story. Well, whereas the marketing group. You know, 391 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: when I say that we're a media kenlometer for the 392 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,360 Speaker 1: twenty one century, with the marketing group is sort of 393 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: bassed to the extent they bashed in um the glow 394 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: of the green Book win because they didn't work on 395 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:01,040 Speaker 1: green Book, and we did. Our financing group, Uh didn't 396 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: work on parasite. Our our marketing group did it entirely. 397 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: So we were not on the ground. But we, I 398 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: guess share from in the reflected glory of their strategic 399 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: brilliance on behalf of the film. And the film itself 400 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,360 Speaker 1: is brilliant. But as I learned uh in the trenches 401 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: on Boyhood, Uh, they don't give that award necessarily for 402 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,960 Speaker 1: best Film. They give it for best campaign. That it 403 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: sounds like, um, you know something, as you say, like 404 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: a hard one lesson out of out of being in 405 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: the hunt and not you know, I mean, I was 406 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: immensely disappointed that Boyhood did not win Best Picture. And Uh, 407 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: if there's any consolation, I learned so much on that 408 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: that we put to work in the service of Greenbook. 409 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: Is there a Best Picture premium? Does winning Best Picture 410 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 1: add to the long tale of a property in a 411 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,159 Speaker 1: in a financially is there a can you put a 412 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,400 Speaker 1: put a dollar sign on what a Best Picture win means? 413 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: I mean, I I think Tom Quinn at Neon helped 414 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 1: revolutionize that this year. Uh in that I think he 415 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: grossed more uh on parasite post win than just about 416 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,840 Speaker 1: anyone ever has on a post win where you really 417 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: gross your money. Uh. And he had to win it 418 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: this year. And this might have been a contributor because 419 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 1: the nomination period was much shorter this year. Excuse me, 420 00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: the nomination period was much shorter this year, so in 421 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 1: a way, the spill overmade sense to to the added 422 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 1: gross after the win. Uh. Greenbook grows very little after 423 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: it one, but it had a full nomination period. And 424 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: what I've come to realize, and I realized it's with 425 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: with Boyhood, is that you don't get a boost from 426 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 1: a nomination just by being nominated. But if you're nominated 427 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: and you're one of the two or three films that 428 00:27:56,160 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: is really being considered as a potential winner, the you 429 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: get a significant boost because the general population reads that, 430 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: and no one wants to be left out. If you 431 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: if you think there's a film that really has a 432 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: chance of winning, you want to see it before Oscar night, 433 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 1: and that's where the gross really happens for those two 434 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: or three films during the six week period between nomination 435 00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: and the awards. Hm, m um. Let's talk about what 436 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: everybody in the film business I think is talking about 437 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:32,160 Speaker 1: at some point, uh, the let's call it the Netflix 438 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,680 Speaker 1: slash Amazon effect on filmmaking. Do you think that the 439 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: entry of these companies in a big way with capital 440 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: and energy and you know, obviously trying to draw a 441 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: list people, do you think a lot of people think 442 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: that this is that this is the four horsemen of 443 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: the apocalypse coming for the end of the theatrical business 444 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 1: as it has you know, existed for a hundred years. 445 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: I think they maybe the three horsemen, and then coronavirus 446 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: is the fourth horseman. Um. I mean, the theatrical experiences challenged. 447 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 1: There's no doubt right now. And it's a weird paradox 448 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: because there's never been more money in the marketplace for 449 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: the financing of content in my thirty years of doing this, 450 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: and there is right at this moment um. You know, 451 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,520 Speaker 1: there's a rumor I and I have no idea what 452 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: this is true, but the rumor on the street was 453 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: that the content budget at Netflix for nineteen billion dollars 454 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,360 Speaker 1: and they're they're at least five platforms chasing Netflix, you know, 455 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: for world domination, you know, for the for the Netflix 456 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: may have hunted and sixty million sets of eyeballs, but 457 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, there's an addressable market out there of seven 458 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:47,480 Speaker 1: billion people, and I think that's really what the platforms 459 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,440 Speaker 1: are looking at, and they're spending largely into a deficit 460 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 1: to try and get there first. Do you think it's 461 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: the fact that there's that they're putting a lot of 462 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: money and they're attracting very strong cre Do you think 463 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: that that is to the detriment of the traditional film business, 464 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: the traditional release it in the theater film business, it's 465 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: clearly to the Yes. I think it's clearly to the 466 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 1: detriment of at least our end of the business, which 467 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: has always sort of trafficked in the character driven sort 468 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:22,239 Speaker 1: of literary stuff. I think there seems that you know, 469 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: the the sort of theme park, UH, superhero myth based 470 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: uh large scale films seem to be as as popular 471 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: as ever and people are still seem to be willing 472 00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: to go to movie theaters to see them. But I 473 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:43,920 Speaker 1: think the independent sector has really suffered theatrically from this, 474 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: and you see the number of films that are being 475 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: bought out of sundance scripted films is down significantly. And 476 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: last year, if Amazon hadn't gone and paid a tremendous 477 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: amount for three films, it would have been a disastrous Sundance. 478 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: And this year, yeah, you know, it's still sort of 479 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: the same thing. Do you think that the sales were 480 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,080 Speaker 1: down this year because there were high prices paid for 481 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: projects that were chased that just didn't perform at the 482 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 1: box office? Yeah, I mean, I think that's certainly a component. 483 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: But when you look at UM what's it called Palm Springs, 484 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: which is sort of another one that was Apple sort 485 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: of getting into the play um uh. I think you know, 486 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,120 Speaker 1: Sundayance seems to be a popular place for UM offbeat 487 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: romantic comedies with movie stars in it, UM and for documentaries, 488 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: which is a realm that we're very heavily invested in UM. 489 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: And there's a big gap in the middle for dramas 490 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: and just really worthy, you know, traditional independent films. Whether 491 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: that's as a result of the failure of films last 492 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 1: year or whether that's just one component. I don't know. Um, 493 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: you mentioned that that you feel like there's more money 494 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: in the marketplace right now. Do you do you mean 495 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: more money for specifically film or just content in general? 496 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: And why do you think there is a game That 497 00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: gets back to our original conversation about is there a 498 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: difference between an episode eleven hour episodic that gets dropped 499 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: at once in a in a two hour movie. Um. 500 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: If Netflix is indeed spending nineteen billion dollars and all 501 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:29,719 Speaker 1: these other platforms are chasing them, there's no question that 502 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:35,120 Speaker 1: there's more money in the marketplace than there's ever been. Um, 503 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: you know what that means for a traditional theatrical distributors. 504 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I think four is doing quite well. I 505 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: think Neon has staked there and I think they're leaning 506 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: into that. Um. It's uh, you know, I don't think 507 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 1: anyone has all the answers now, and it's such a 508 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: sort of unstable time. It's hard to know where things 509 00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: are gonna go. Um, and you know where we're I 510 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: don't know when this podcast is going to hit the air, 511 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: but you know, right now there's a tremendous amount of 512 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: uncertainty about any public gathering because of the coronavirus. The 513 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: first thing I did when I got here was was 514 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: was washed my hands, which seems to be the new protocol. Yeah. Um, 515 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: setting aside as I'm curious about the financing setting aside 516 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: the influx of the big platforms, the Amazons, the Netflix 517 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: is the Hulus. Is their private equity money out there 518 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: chasing chasing content as it used to be, is it? 519 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: You know, for for so long it was going you know, 520 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: he was the German funds, it was you know, it 521 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: was there was always like a movable feast if there 522 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: was some sector that was ready to invest in movies. 523 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: And it feels like that's been a lot quieter. Well, 524 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: I mean there's always been financial engineering. Um. And you 525 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: know it's funny. I always say, I've dedicated my career 526 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: to getting films made for the right reason and not 527 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: for the wrong reason. Like insurance too. You know, there 528 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: were there was an inch, there was an insurance movement 529 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: at one point where insurance companies were getting into the 530 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: finance of films. Uh. There there's all sorts of you know, 531 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: our Sylvester salone remains popular in Estonia or something, and 532 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:21,440 Speaker 1: that gets a film finance. Um. Uh, these bubbles emerge 533 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:26,120 Speaker 1: from time to time. Uh. You know, the subsidy universe 534 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: used to be in Europe, and equity driven universe used 535 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,879 Speaker 1: to be the province of the States that is now 536 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: more global and less US centric. There's still a lot 537 00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 1: of equity money out there. And and what what has 538 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: become an essential component of film finance in the United 539 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,720 Speaker 1: States is is soft money? Is um subsidies from states 540 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: And Uh, it's almost irresponsible to make a film in 541 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: the United States financed by equity without a significant so 542 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,280 Speaker 1: of tax benefit or rebate from from the state of production, 543 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: which explains why there are more films being Maine, Georgia 544 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 1: than there are in California. John, how does a guy 545 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: from Michigan get into this particular end of the film 546 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: business and and become so successful? Let it? Uh? How 547 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: did you get started that at the right time? You know? 548 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: I had a very Uh, I decided to I was 549 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: raised to think that New York was the cultural couple 550 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,239 Speaker 1: of the world. You know, my father was sort of 551 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: a frustrated New Yorker. He subscribed to The New Yorker 552 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: and sort of always pointed East. Um. And I had 553 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,479 Speaker 1: a bad initial experience in California. I was cheking around 554 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: the country, believe it or not, and I thought, like, 555 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 1: this place is an endless suburb. I don't want to 556 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,719 Speaker 1: live here, so I want, you know. I was in 557 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: the film society at the University of University of Michigan, 558 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: and I wanted to get into film. Uh. And I 559 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,240 Speaker 1: went to law school because I came from a family 560 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,120 Speaker 1: of salesman and I needed a risk averse trade. Um. 561 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: I said, I'm going to I want to be in 562 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: the entertainment business, but I'm going to go to New 563 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: York and try to do it there because I don't 564 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: want to live in Los Angeles. And I always wanted 565 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: to live in New York. And I got into Wall 566 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: Street and I worked at a corporate firm for three years, 567 00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,000 Speaker 1: and then I got an opportunity to become an entertainment lawyer, 568 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,319 Speaker 1: and I jumped at it. Uh. And I fell into 569 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,839 Speaker 1: the independent film world because that's where my sensibilities lie, 570 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: and that's kind of where film where film existed in 571 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,719 Speaker 1: New York. And I realized very quickly, and this was 572 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,839 Speaker 1: sort of the AHA moment of my career, is that 573 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: as a lawyer, you can be a traditional lawyer and 574 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: be passive and wait for other people to do deals 575 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,400 Speaker 1: and put financing together, and you can document them like 576 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 1: traditional lawyers do, uh. Or having negotiated the sales and 577 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: financing of films and knowing who those people are, those 578 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,720 Speaker 1: financiers and those distributors, I can go to my producer 579 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: clients and say, you don't like raising money anyway, you'd 580 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: rather produce a movie. And I know all these people, 581 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,439 Speaker 1: I'm going to take it upon myself to go out 582 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: and put the financing together for you. And they were 583 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,920 Speaker 1: relieved and they said, yes, we we want to be producers. 584 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: We don't want to be fundraisers. Um. And so I 585 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: threw myself into the breach and started uh trying to 586 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:22,319 Speaker 1: put finance together for my clients films. And out of 587 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: that grew Syenetic, which is a service company for all 588 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: this stuff that isn't the practice of law. And we 589 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,120 Speaker 1: still have a very vibrant law firm here. And you know, 590 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: the I just sort of rode the rise of the 591 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: independent film world. And what happened, What people don't realize 592 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 1: is what happened about twenty years ago is when the 593 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: studios sort of got out of the finance business and 594 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:51,959 Speaker 1: opened the kimono to Wall Street. They started creating uh 595 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: finance models for two million dollars films that looked exactly 596 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 1: like the finance models for two million dollar independent films. 597 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 1: And because I had all your playbook, well or are they? 598 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: They created an opportunity for me and so um, they 599 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: did steal the playbook a little bit, but we were 600 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: smart enough to realize that we could bring the expertise 601 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: that we brought to these smaller films to the financing 602 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 1: of larger films, and that's we got involved in those 603 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,200 Speaker 1: What was the first film that you worked on that 604 00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 1: you really felt like when you saw it on the 605 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: big screen, you felt like, I really played a huge 606 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 1: role in getting into this onto the screen. It was 607 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: the first film I executive produced, which was City of 608 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: Hope by John Sales UM, which unfortunately was released in 609 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: theaters the same weekend as the Anita Hill confirmation hearing. 610 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: And if you looked at a ven diagram of the 611 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: people um who watched John sales films and the people 612 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,960 Speaker 1: would be glued to the TV to see whether Clarence 613 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,800 Speaker 1: Thomas U would be affirmed as a Supreme Court justice, 614 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: you realized that no one was going to go to 615 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: the movie theater that weekend, but it was. It's a 616 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: it remains a very important film to me. It's a 617 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 1: film I'm very proud to have been associated with and 618 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,240 Speaker 1: it's sort of set me on my path. Great well, 619 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: thank you so much for taking the time to talk 620 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: about the new things going on at Syenetic and a 621 00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 1: little bit about the about the business at a at 622 00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: a difficult time for the business for the world, and 623 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: let's hope that we can do this again some when 624 00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: we're not under the threat of coronavirus and everything else. 625 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: Let's go wash our hands and hatch a plan for 626 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 1: another visit to the podcast. Thank you, John m thanks 627 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 1: for listening. Be sure to tune in next week for 628 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: another episode of Strictly Business.