WEBVTT - Relationships After Baby with Couples Therapist Dr. Tracy Dalgleish 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:09.080 Who baby, my baby, I need you, Oh how I 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:13.200 need you? What to expect? As a production of I 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.239 Heart Radio, I'm your host Heidi Murkoff, and I'm a 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:19.920 mom on a mission, a mission to help you know 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:25.160 what to expect every step of the way. Let's face it, 0:00:25.360 --> 0:00:28.160 you've got baby on the brain, and whether that baby 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:31.760 is still in your belly already snuggled up in your arms, 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:37.120 you are one hundred percent obsessed and preoccupied. And that 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:41.120 makes sense. And both you and your partner are officially 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.240 or soon to be parents as little as they are. 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:49.080 Having a baby is a really big deal. But somewhere 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.720 in the back of your baby overloaded mind, you may 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:55.280 be wondering what happens to the two of us when 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:58.320 baby makes three. Will you still be a couple or 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:00.960 will you just become a couple of parents? Will you 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:04.520 live to love each other again in the same way. 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.959 The answer is yes, yes, one thousand times yes. But 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.679 like nurturing a baby, nurturing a relationship takes time, commitment, 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.440 and a lot of hard work. Happily, we're about to 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.240 make it seem a little bit easier. Today M and 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.840 I are talking relationships with Dr Tracy Dalglish Tracy as 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:30.080 a clinical psychologist and couple therapists who specializes in helping 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:35.400 couples postpartum with everything from maintaining intimacy to preventing resentment, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.920 to learning to communicate and work as a team to 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.520 parent your new little bundle of joy. She's also a 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.840 mom of two and a partner in parenting as both 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.640 Emma and I are. So and well, let's start with you. 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:53.040 What was the hardest adjustment for you and Simon when 0:01:53.040 --> 0:01:56.000 you brought Stevy home. You already have Lenox. Yeah, so 0:01:56.160 --> 0:01:58.000 I feel like, in a sense that I was kind 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:00.560 of lucky without because I was a single m and 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.840 so Simon and I got knocked up after like four 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.800 months of dating, so we really didn't have that honeymoon 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:09.480 phase that a lot of couples have, and I'm always 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.920 kind of envious to the couples who get that time, 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:16.040 which we never got. Although I'm grateful for the fact 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:19.440 that I had Lennox, so even when we started dating, 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:24.280 you know, there was time issues and scheduling and so 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:27.600 we were kind of prepared in that sense. But I 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:30.640 really feel now, especially because it's been so rough for 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.720 this past year, that we really could have used that 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:37.639 alone time. For me, the hardest thing is making time 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:41.120 because at the end of the day, I am so tired, 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.640 and for us at least, like the relationship is always 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.040 kind of put on the back burner. We need to 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:51.079 build on reconnecting at the end of the day instead 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.240 of disconnecting because we're there's a lot of disconnection happening. 0:02:54.240 --> 0:02:56.840 I mean, my husband works fourteen hours a day, so 0:02:56.919 --> 0:02:59.720 he's exhausted. He gets into bed, he's out like a light. 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:01.480 And when he's not working, he's with the kids. And 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:04.200 that makes me so happy because personally, I would rather 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.320 have them have that time. Although it's kind of affecting 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:11.200 a relationship, and when it comes to a relationship that 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:15.120 kind of falls into the third party, like it's the 0:03:15.840 --> 0:03:20.120 it's it's work kids relationship, and I feel like a 0:03:20.160 --> 0:03:22.440 lot of people feel that way, and I want to 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:26.160 learn how to prioritize but also still have my kids 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:30.680 have their dad. Fortunately, for you and for all the 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.240 moms out there and dads, we have a professional in 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:36.440 the house, and I am so glad we do. Tracy, 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.560 thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you 0:03:39.880 --> 0:03:42.640 so much for inviting me. I am so glad to 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:45.160 be sitting with both of you, Heidi and Emma. At 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:48.480 what point did you realize that you wanted to focus 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.760 on helping new parents with their relationships. You know, it's 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.520 interesting when I think about this question that we often 0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.040 can say what leads us to certain areas of work 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:03.280 is often our own experience as a psychologist and couples therapists. 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.280 I was working within maternal mental health in in practice 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:11.880 already and helping women in the postpartum period, helping couples 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:15.320 after they had had children, But it wasn't truly until 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.640 I had my own child, my first one, that I 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:23.000 was just side tracked with, you know, just the disparity 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:27.440 of information that is being provided to women and couples 0:04:27.480 --> 0:04:29.360 before having a baby. And I mean, I think so 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:31.359 many of us can relate to this one where you 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.800 go to your six week check up and they say, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.320 all right, you're good, You're all clear, and I'm thinking 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:40.000 all clear for what I'm backing most of the time, 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:42.600 I'm sweating at night, I'm up in the middle of 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.640 the night, ready for what. And my partner and I, 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:51.000 I mean, we were both navigating the role changes are 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.080 changes and identities and then also all the changes in 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.919 our relationships. And while I knew all of the communication 0:04:57.000 --> 0:04:59.680 tools and strategies, no one could have prepared me for 0:05:00.040 --> 0:05:03.719 the mental load that came on after having our first child. Yeah, 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:08.760 so you didn't exactly know what to expect. No, I 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:14.360 feel like unrealistic expectations can be at the root of 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.919 relationships struggles that are ahead. They can almost forecast it, 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:23.040 because babies bring big changes, and there's changes in every 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.560 aspect of your life. They change your lifestyle, your schedule, 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:30.800 you're all of your relationships absolutely, and you know, we 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:33.000 think of all the things that we prepare for, We 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.080 prepare for the nursery, we prepare for labor, we do 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.840 the readings, and we rarely prepare our relationships. That's right. 0:05:40.480 --> 0:05:43.839 So what are some of the most common issues that 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:48.200 you see in couples dealing with that change in relationship 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:52.880 when they bring a new baby home. What don't they expect? Yes, oh, yes, Well, 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:56.000 the first thing that comes to mind is navigating all 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:58.880 of the emotions that show up. So for many moms 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.240 they talk about well and both parents, the depression, the anxiety, 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.080 the blues, the baby blues that show up, you know, 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.400 the random tearfulness, and then also the rage that shows 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:11.520 up during that time for women as well. It's not 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.880 something that we are prepared for we talk about, and 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.640 the challenge with this is that we also don't always 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:23.240 know how to share our feelings or even ask for 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:25.840 our needs. So that is one of the top things 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:28.640 that I see show up. But on top of that, 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:30.840 which is the big piece I've already alluded to, is 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:34.400 navigating the roles and the demands that show up. You know, 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.599 if you are breastfeeding, have you talked about who's waking 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:41.040 up with baby to do the diaper change first before feeding? 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:44.279 Are you sharing the night feedings? You know, that's something 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.800 that we don't tend to talk about. And ultimately all 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.960 of this goes into our intimacy, right we do not 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.719 prepare the conversations around how will we maintain our physical closeness, 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.080 what will we do to remain close? And all of 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:01.799 this goes into the side. We just keep going because 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.720 we're in survival mode learning how to you know, rock 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:09.240 this baby and feed the baby. And then resentment starts 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:12.680 to build up, and many moms are so surprised to 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:16.960 experience the level of resentment towards a partner. My theory 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:21.880 is two old. One is the obvious. That's society talking. Still, 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.360 even though society is way behind the wheel, right, we 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.200 expect moms to be nurtures. We don't expect that necessarily 0:07:29.240 --> 0:07:33.400 of dad's. And the problem I feel is number two, 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:37.040 that the dads aren't given the chance, that women have 0:07:37.120 --> 0:07:39.480 a way of taking over, and then they sort of 0:07:39.960 --> 0:07:43.480 step away from the changing table, they step away from everything, 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:46.080 they step away from the relationship because it's all baby 0:07:46.080 --> 0:07:50.080 and mommy. Absolutely, yes, absolutely, those are two key pieces. 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.840 So what society tells us I hear from a lot 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:56.240 of mothers this internal guilt. I should be able to 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.400 do it all. I shouldn't burden my partner. They shouldn't 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:00.720 have to wake up in the middle of the night 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:03.960 with me, you know somehow, and you know, for a 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:07.200 good reason. We're nurturing and caring. But this is about 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:12.080 being that collaborative and co creating this family together. Huge piece. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:13.880 But then the other piece that I love what you've 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.440 said they're harty is that dad's aren't given the chance. 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:21.520 And this is where maternal gatekeeping really comes into play. Oh, 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.840 I love that phrase. Yes, and it starts really early 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.320 on that you know, naturally, we start to maybe feel 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:33.600 uncomfortable feelings as we're seeing dad trying to navigate crying baby, 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.480 so we think, Okay, well baby's uncomfortable, I'm uncomfortable. Let 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.920 me jump in, rather than mom just taking that step 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:43.680 back and saying, Okay, my partner needs to learn to 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.640 do this as well, So I'm going to let them 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.760 do that, and maybe I will take this opportunity to 0:08:48.760 --> 0:09:04.439 go have a shower or do something for myself. Trees, 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:09.000 I'm curious how you feel that the pandemic it's changed 0:09:09.120 --> 0:09:11.040 so much about our lives, But how do you think 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.559 it's changed relationships for the better and for the worst. Yeah, 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:17.439 for for the for the better in some ways, So 0:09:17.440 --> 0:09:19.679 when I'm thinking of when baby comes home, of all 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:22.920 of the new parents during this time, in some ways, 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.560 what has been really good about this opportunity is that 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:28.440 if your partner is working from home, that has been 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.000 a beautiful space that I've been able to tap into 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:35.080 with a lot of my clients as well. So if rage, anxiety, 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.600 or depression are showing up, can you just gently knock 0:09:37.640 --> 0:09:39.800 on your partner's door and they can hold baby for 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:42.120 ten minutes while you go and do something for yourself. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.680 That has been a huge benefit. Now downfall, unfortunately, though, 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.840 is that we know that to really feel good during 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:54.200 the postpartum period, especially in the first six months, we 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:58.319 need to have a strong social support network, and families 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.880 are just having this taken away from them right now 0:10:00.960 --> 0:10:03.160 that you know you can't lean on you know, maybe 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.400 your mom coming to live with you for two weeks, 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.160 or friends dropping by and holding babies so you can 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:11.000 take the shower or make the meal for yourself. We're 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.440 just really having to go through this time on our own, 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.679 and as a result, parents are getting exhausted and they 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.559 are burnt out without being able to lean on anyone 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.800 for more support. Now that's true. And Emma, how about you. 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.720 I think part of the problem for you is that 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.679 you're both working at home, but Simon's one who's working 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.680 fourteen hours a day. Yeah, so you know, communication is 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:39.880 really important and I'm not the greatest communicator. I think 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.520 I'm communicating, but I'm thinking it and I expect him 0:10:43.559 --> 0:10:47.959 to read my mind at all times, and then I explode. 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:52.120 So there needs to be away where I can communicate 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:54.760 in a healthy way. I'll get like so mad at 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.440 the end of the day. Because he's upstairs working and 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.440 I'm taking care of the kids. I'm doing school pickups, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.600 I'm doing school with Lenox, I'm cleaning, I'm making dinner. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.120 And then I start like throwing dishes in the sink, 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:06.360 you know, and I slammed doors and I slammed And 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.240 that's not good for my kids either, to see me 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.960 like that. So I think communication is so incredibly important, 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.240 and that's something that I obviously need to work on. 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.320 And can I normalize that that nobody really teaches us 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:20.600 the communication piece. We don't learn what to do with 0:11:20.640 --> 0:11:23.640 our feelings and how to express them and get them out. 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:27.920 And you know, I posted something recently about when you 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:31.720 say I feel like you never help out, it's actually 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:36.760 not a feeling word. But many people, for they were saying, oh, 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:39.880 that's a light bulb moment, right, okay, versus the saying 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:44.200 I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm feeling frustrated, I need help. We 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.000 just don't learn how to do that. I appreciate that, 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:50.640 that's that's very true. How does Emma and how do 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:55.520 other couples work on communicating before the baby even arrives 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.840 on the scene, Yes, before the baby even arrives. Okay, 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.080 so we need to make sure looking at how we 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:05.240 are communicating, are we getting into negative communication patterns? So 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:09.680 those are the patterns of blame and criticism, defensiveness, Are 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:14.400 we um contemptuous towards our partner? Or are we stonewalling? 0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:19.320 Those communication patterns lead to us into negative interaction cycles. 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.319 And that looks like as I'm pursuing you, as I'm 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:26.400 approaching you for attention and affection, one partner might step back, 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.040 and as that partner step back, you start to knock 0:12:29.040 --> 0:12:31.800 on the door louder, Hello, I need help, where are you? 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.240 And the louder you get, the other person withdraws more. 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:39.920 And so couples get into these patterns that are often 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.960 there even before baby comes, but we haven't learned to 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:45.840 necessarily get out of them beforehand. So that would be 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:49.440 the first thing that we really need to work on beforehand. So, am, 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.840 how does that sound to you? That sounds that sounds doable? 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:54.800 And yeah, that does sound too. I feel like I 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:56.839 feel like empowered, Like it's a new day, it's a 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.079 new dawn, it's a new day. I have an example 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:00.880 for this, you know, I'm I'm sure you can relate 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:02.160 to this party. I know you can relate to this 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.480 as well. As it's kind of like a month in advance. 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.200 You get the party invite and you're like, yeah, the party. 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.600 I can't wait to go to the party. Right the 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.400 day of the party, you think, oh gosh, why did 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:14.240 I say yes, I don't want to go, and so 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:16.720 you said, all right, I'm gonna go. Anyways, So you 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:19.600 go to the party, and then afterwards you say, oh, 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:23.160 I'm so glad I went to the Party's not so 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:27.120 true into missing in our relationships is exactly that. So 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.880 even though you know, I had one couple that described 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.200 this perfectly. The male partner would go and give her 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:33.560 a hug and she's like, I don't want to hug. 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.320 I don't want to hug, and he would say, I'm 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.640 just gonna hold you. I'm gonna keep squeezing you, and 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:41.439 after a few seconds she would let herself release into 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.000 it exactly, And it's very much like a toddler, like 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.080 when they're having a tantrum. Sometimes giving them a big 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.920 giant hug, even if you're mad at them and they're 0:13:50.960 --> 0:13:55.080 mad at you, it communicates in a way that words can't, 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.520 and it melts down that resentment or that anger, and 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:03.960 in moment you feel close and connected. But there's also 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:08.840 the issue of time. Like big time, it's hard to 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.240 find time. Jersey, what's some advice you have for couples 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.520 who feel like they don't have the time. Yeah, how 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:17.720 do you're talking about? The number one thing I say 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:20.960 to couples, which is getting intentional to schedule it. It 0:14:21.000 --> 0:14:23.600 doesn't have to be rigid, but it's an agreement that 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:26.760 you know, every Sunday night we have a thirty minute 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:31.920 connection time where we have no distractions. It's the getting 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.240 out of the all or nothing. Right. We can't take 0:14:34.280 --> 0:14:37.560 the weekend away just the two of us, the adventure, 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.560 the week long adventure, so we're not going to do 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:44.120 anything it. No, it's more about those small, manageable pieces 0:14:44.160 --> 0:14:47.120 that you can do every single day, and I think 0:14:47.120 --> 0:14:50.360 those do have more meaning even than the weekend away, 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:54.680 which comes with so many expectations like vacation. You have 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.080 to have sex so many times a day and have 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.680 all this intimacy. But in fact, if you who actually 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.280 make time for it at home and it's just twenty minutes, 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.640 that can mean more, at least cumulatively. Now, of course 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.680 this says bring us to intimacy. And it's funny how 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.360 people use it as a euphemism for sex, But I 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:16.680 think of sex as sex and intimacy as something that 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.200 is all the time. One of the things I think 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:22.640 is so important around this is, first, let's let's redefine sex. 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:24.640 And how do I agree with what you're saying around 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.560 that is that it is not just this sex as 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:31.000 an intercourse. It is more about this intimacy of let's 0:15:31.000 --> 0:15:33.320 think of all the ways we can be intimate, physical intimacy, 0:15:33.720 --> 0:15:36.880 sexual intimacy, which is intercourse or outer course. Right, there's 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:40.040 pleasure on the outside of our bodies as well, emotional 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:44.640 intimacy sharing our thoughts and feelings, intellectual intimacy, which is 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.440 let's listen to a podcast or read a book together 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.760 and share our ideas over that. Or my favorite and 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:54.400 my go to is the experiential intimacy. We painted our 0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:58.560 main floor during COVID and we felt so close doing 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.840 this project together. Right, that's so cute. I love that 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:04.800 in the postpartum period, in that first year, it doesn't 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:07.520 have to be sex, but instead let's find the other 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.240 ways that we can bridge that connection. Absolutely, I agree. 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:13.480 I think that for me though, when you don't have 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.120 sex as often as you used to, it's a little 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:19.840 bit like stressful. What's interesting, though, is that for me 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:24.560 during that newborn stage, the baby stage, that was the 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:27.520 easy stage. And now that I have a toddler, of 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:31.600 my vaginas shut. It's closed up because I'm tired. Absolutely. 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.440 And what we're talking about there is responsive desire versus 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:39.880 spontaneous desire. And it is incredibly hard to have spontaneous 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.640 desire when you are carrying a backpack of bricks on 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.960 and inside of that backpack is the number of diapers 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.720 you've changed, the running around toddler, and the tantrums and 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.160 the melting down, and then the laundry and all of 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.000 that on top of it. And then you go to 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:55.480 the bedroom at the end of the day you have 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.000 no energy left, and you think, somehow I'm going to 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.480 be lubricated and excited and and you can with a 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.479 backpack of bricks and you look over and there is 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:07.200 the laundry basket full of clothes that you didn't get 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:11.720 to do. So spontaneous desire does tend to fade as 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:13.919 we move through this stage. But what's important is we 0:17:13.960 --> 0:17:17.520 remember the responsive desire which is if you get into 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.320 bed and you lie your bodies next to each other 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.439 and you start to touch each other in ways that 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.280 feel good, then assault your body is going to respond. 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.720 And I think that's also important that we remember that 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.440 as women, that is something that we are more likely 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:35.840 to experience compared to compared to men in heterosexual relationship. Yeah, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.520 that's true, you know, but I think that dad's also 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:43.760 experience postpartum, you know, baby blues. They they have changes 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:47.400 in their hormones that you know, lower test saucetone. They're 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:51.760 feelings sleep deprived, not to the extent maybe that we are, 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:55.960 but it does changing too. Yeah, their lobito might not 0:17:56.080 --> 0:17:58.520 be what it was. But what do we do as women? 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:05.120 We assume that it's us, like we're not sexy anymore, right, right. 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:07.760 I think that people need to be more willing to 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:10.919 have dialogues around this, and that that dialogue is not 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:13.920 something that's personal. And that is one of the hardest 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:15.520 things that I see for couples when I come into 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.439 my office is they just do not know how to 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:21.320 talk about sex as something that we can create together, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.560 but that it's not personal, and that we can make 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:28.240 space for both people to have an experience, and if 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:30.320 one partner wants it five times a week and the 0:18:30.359 --> 0:18:33.160 other one is okay with one once a month, maybe 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.239 even we've got to find that middle space together and 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:37.760 how we're going to work through it because we need 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.320 to consider both people. You know, it's really interesting that 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.800 oftentimes when a mom does say to her partner in session, 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:48.400 I don't want you to come near me. I don't 0:18:48.440 --> 0:18:50.720 want to give you hugs because I'm worried that if 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:53.160 I let you hug me, you're going to want sex. 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:56.560 And so then we get this assumption or this perception 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:59.960 that any touch from my partner is going to leave 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.879 to them wanting sex. And the male partner will often say, 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:07.479 I just want to be close to you, I just 0:19:07.600 --> 0:19:11.240 want to hold you. That it is not always me 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.840 coming in for sex. It is let's build closeness. And 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:16.840 it puts a lot of pressure on him as well, 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.320 right if he thinks that, you know, he brings sex 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:25.120 to the table, you know, and it has to be sex. So, Ama, 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:28.360 how do you feel about going to give Simon a hug? 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:31.560 I'm such a I don't know, like I think that 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:33.679 you and I are very different because I think that 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.560 sometimes like when I'm mad, like I want to stay mad, 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.880 and I want to have that reason to be mad 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.480 and to like hold a grudge and to have him 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:46.760 like gravel, and that's such a horrible quality. But I 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:48.440 feel like, so if I give in and I give 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:52.200 that hug, it's like I'm letting that go, and maybe 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:53.800 I'm not ready to let it go. What if you 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:55.959 could have both, Emma, What if you could still have 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.919 your mad feelings and you can still have your partner. 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.160 I think I think that would be great. I think, honestly, 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:05.320 it would probably make me a much happier, less dressed out, 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:09.520 angry person if I would release some of the anger 0:20:09.600 --> 0:20:12.080 and let go of things easier. I think what you're 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.600 speaking to, Emma is the sense that what we really 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:17.159 need to feel is being seen from our partners. We 0:20:17.240 --> 0:20:19.440 really want to know that they see what we're feeling. 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:22.560 And sometimes our partners come in and say, Okay, you're struggling, 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:24.440 how can I fix it? How can I problem solve, 0:20:24.840 --> 0:20:27.040 Let me do this, I'll do that, and they really 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.080 miss what it is that we're feeling. And exactly when 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.600 they miss it, then we start to dig in even further. 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:36.640 Rather than being able to communicate them. Can you see 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:38.760 just the feeling that I'm having right now? I just 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:41.040 need you to see that I'm angry about this. Yeah. 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.120 And I think men and women generally are wired differently. 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.080 And my husband obviously does not think the same way 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:52.000 I do, just like he doesn't understand necessarily like why 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:54.240 I feel a certain way. Sometimes I'm like understood, don't 0:20:54.280 --> 0:20:56.639 understand why he feels a certain way. Yeah, And I'm 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.240 curious to hear what you have to say about that, Tracy. 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:01.320 If we go to the search. So the research by 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:04.840 John Gottmann's group, they have studied over a three thousand couples. 0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:09.040 They've hooked men and women, heterosexual couples up to all 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:12.679 of the measures their heart rates, sweat monitoring, and what 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.280 we see is that when a couple starts to talk 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:20.200 about a heated discussion, men's markers actually go up much 0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:24.120 higher and quicker than a female's marker. So they are 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:29.040 more prone to being to feeling flooded and overwhelmed in disagreements. 0:21:29.119 --> 0:21:31.080 And so then they because of that, because of this 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.800 rush of emotion, you know, increased heart rate, shortness of breath, 0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.720 more sweating, they are more likely to be the ones 0:21:36.800 --> 0:21:40.040 to shut down in conversations and to not talk about 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:43.240 their emotions. And if we also then look at the 0:21:43.320 --> 0:21:47.280 attachment research, we do tend to see that more men 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.320 tend to be avoidantly attached, which means it's not that 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:53.960 they don't have those feelings, is that they feel those 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:56.760 feelings they are overwhelming, and then they shut them down. 0:21:57.040 --> 0:22:00.919 And men are more likely to compartmentalize as well. You know, 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.920 I see that clinically in my experience. Your partner might 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:07.040 have a big disagreement with you and then you're still 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:09.800 thinking about it, but then they come home and you're wondering, 0:22:09.840 --> 0:22:12.800 why aren't they saying anything about it? Because they've compartmentalized it. 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.919