Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to Quest Love Supreme and we're celebrating Women's
Speaker 2: History Month here in March with some special programming drawn
Speaker 2: from nearly a decade of shows and conversations. And shout
Speaker 2: out to Laya from Team Supreme who always pushed the
Speaker 2: programming to QLs to make sure that there is space
Speaker 2: for these conversations to even happen, especially at times when
Speaker 2: the team was sometimes crowded by guys.
Speaker 3: In the room.
Speaker 1: Yes, we are guilty.
Speaker 2: It's so weird how we take for granted women's roles
Speaker 2: in music and in history. I remember as a child
Speaker 2: oftentimes getting records and legit being shocked. I remember one
Speaker 2: time my aunt was a part of the Columbia Music House.
Speaker 2: Asked your parents about that at Google Columbia Music House
Speaker 2: that was the original Spotify. That's how we got records rapidly.
Speaker 2: And one day we got night Birds by label in
Speaker 2: the package in the mail.
Speaker 1: I believe that was the.
Speaker 2: Very first time that I saw all women on an
Speaker 2: album cover and I kept staring at it, and I
Speaker 2: remember asking my aunt. I was like four years old,
Speaker 2: and night Birds is the LaBelle album that kind of
Speaker 2: like brought them to prominence. Of course, their timeless Lady
Speaker 2: Marmalade was the lead single, that Monster single from that album.
Speaker 2: And I remember asking my aunt, like, are women allowed
Speaker 2: to make music? And you know, it's so weird how
Speaker 2: even at the age of four I had to ask
Speaker 2: that question, but because you know, you just often didn't
Speaker 2: see such a thing, which now you know, after having
Speaker 2: worked on the slo and the Family Stone documentary, I
Speaker 2: see how revolutionary sly Stone was in nineteen sixty seven.
Speaker 2: As far as like ginger pairing is concerned, seeing Cynthia
Speaker 2: Robinson on the trumpet, that's something you just didn't see
Speaker 2: every day, you know, you didn't see those things. I
Speaker 2: remember there was a group called Ecstasy, Passion and Pain
Speaker 2: from Philadelphia and they had a drummer named Cookie and
Speaker 2: they were on Soul Train, and I was like, wow,
Speaker 2: girls are allowed.
Speaker 1: To play drums?
Speaker 2: Like And you know, I lived in a household with
Speaker 2: three women, my aunt, my sister, and my mother, and
Speaker 2: they were constantly, constantly reprogramming me to always give consideration
Speaker 2: to women and to give them their proper do and
Speaker 2: their proper respect. And so that's kind of how it
Speaker 2: starts with me, and you know, as a result, women.
Speaker 1: Were a big part of our creative circle.
Speaker 2: Like you know, if you just look at the first
Speaker 2: movement of jam sessions that we had with Black Lily,
Speaker 2: primarily female led, simply because when that movement started out
Speaker 2: initially as the Roots Jam session, a lot of the
Speaker 2: women that would come would just be huddled up in
Speaker 2: the corner rather, you know, kind of pissed off that
Speaker 2: they're not getting any time on the microphone. Like they
Speaker 2: would sing for like two seconds and then suddenly like
Speaker 2: an MC would come on and.
Speaker 1: Then you know, they just give up and walk away
Speaker 1: in the corner.
Speaker 2: I remember one particular night there's epic battle between Tracy
Speaker 2: and the Jazzy Fat Nasties and Rest in Peace Mum's
Speaker 2: the poet, and they were going at each other and
Speaker 2: Tracy was getting in his ass like like I'm tired
Speaker 2: of y'all hogging up the microphone not giving us our
Speaker 2: say and whatever.
Speaker 1: You know, Richard Nichols is his whole solution. Rich's job
Speaker 1: was always to come with this solution. He didn't break
Speaker 1: up arguments, He just came up with the solution. The
Speaker 1: solution was, Okay, we will now start a female led
Speaker 1: jam session so that women get their say.
Speaker 2: And that's the Black Lily Jam sessions for you.
Speaker 1: So shout out to Tracy for holding it down. This
Speaker 1: is part three.
Speaker 2: Enjoy all right, So we're going to begin with the
Speaker 2: amazing Tracy Ellis Ross. In this clip, she speaks about
Speaker 2: wishing to use the physical life changes that women experience
Speaker 2: to push her towards stand up. This conversation also touches
Speaker 2: on Blackish covering postpartum and how Tracy had a complicated
Speaker 2: relationship being an actress with a very famous mother.
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed this conversation.
Speaker 2: I always tried to imagine what it was like to
Speaker 2: grow up in Los Angeles or Hollywood.
Speaker 1: Assume that you grew up.
Speaker 4: I grew up in New York.
Speaker 5: Really yeah, New York, New York and Europe. So I
Speaker 5: was born here in La I went to the Center,
Speaker 5: and then we moved to New York so my mom
Speaker 5: could do the whiz in seventy nine, and we left
Speaker 5: and started school in New York in seventy.
Speaker 4: Nine and stayed there until seventh grade. And I'm we
Speaker 4: moved to Paris and then Switzerland.
Speaker 5: So I did eighth and ninth grade in Europe, which
Speaker 5: are pivotal years, and then moved back to the East
Speaker 5: Coast and then went to Brown.
Speaker 3: You've got a couple of languages and maybe oh.
Speaker 6: I just forgot all my friendship.
Speaker 5: I have lost most of my vocabulary, but I have
Speaker 5: a strong French accent that can you know, get me
Speaker 5: by and I can speak English with a French accent
Speaker 5: like nobody's business.
Speaker 7: Then you have no idea because you don't know that
Speaker 7: I speak English of conscience doesn't matter because the people
Speaker 7: they wander and don't know how you stay in English
Speaker 7: because the people are their wonder all the time.
Speaker 4: You know how you say, how you say?
Speaker 1: Uh?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 6: Wait, I'm sorry, I mean almos Tracy, Tracy?
Speaker 8: Do you right?
Speaker 5: I do?
Speaker 8: I write so me.
Speaker 3: It's funny because I was just thinking you. I know
Speaker 3: you've done improv. I seen you sketch comedy with the
Speaker 3: lyricists lounge. Of course, You're a funny lady. How come
Speaker 3: and I know your I a stand up? Have you
Speaker 3: ever thought of like just doing.
Speaker 5: I've not done stand up, but I have to tell
Speaker 5: you I mean this.
Speaker 4: I'm forty eight years old.
Speaker 5: At my forty eight, I'm forty eight and I'm going
Speaker 5: through the beginning of some changes, some perimenopause, and I've
Speaker 5: got to tell you that I really get to stand
Speaker 5: up on this ship because I, first of all, it's
Speaker 5: got Did you see the that two second pool video
Speaker 5: I posted?
Speaker 2: Yes, thoughts there, I heard about that fool video.
Speaker 1: It's funny.
Speaker 4: I think it's two seconds. It's two seconds in.
Speaker 6: That videocy Mater you was in a bathing suit. That's
Speaker 6: what I heard. That's all I had in a pool.
Speaker 5: I mean, you know, I have a like it wasn't
Speaker 5: me in a bathing suit in the kitchen.
Speaker 8: Actually in the pool.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was like, why is this two seconds?
Speaker 6: You should do that?
Speaker 3: Because a female comedian told me that female shouldn't talk
Speaker 3: about female issues, so please do that.
Speaker 6: Why was I.
Speaker 4: Wish more people would talk about it.
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know about you, but some of
Speaker 5: the sexiest and most admirable women that I look at
Speaker 5: are my age and older. I want to know what's
Speaker 5: happening and it's.
Speaker 6: Still happening, and how it happens and what.
Speaker 5: It is, and like it should be demystified. And I
Speaker 5: don't think it should be scary to men either. I
Speaker 5: think it's it's certainly not the end of my life.
Speaker 5: I am not being pushed out on a canoe out
Speaker 5: into nowhere.
Speaker 4: I'll tell you that right now.
Speaker 5: I as I said before, I am a liberated woman. I
Speaker 5: am out here living my life in all.
Speaker 4: Of its fullness.
Speaker 5: Well yeah, and I think people we should talk about
Speaker 5: it in that way so that we let go of
Speaker 5: the stigma. It's the same thing like on Blackish when
Speaker 5: we did that episode on postpartum depression. Why are we
Speaker 5: not talking about these things when you're siloed off by yourself.
Speaker 5: That's when you feel termally unique and you don't think
Speaker 5: that you can you know, it's just you that's in
Speaker 5: that situation.
Speaker 4: Nah, We're all doing it.
Speaker 5: And by the way, men have their own version of
Speaker 5: what's happening at this age as their home hormones are
Speaker 5: shifting and changing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, hey, well yeah, I was about to say,
Speaker 2: will set it off yesterday, even though this is coming.
Speaker 1: On way later.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, that was so charming and lovely that
Speaker 4: he did that.
Speaker 1: And that was my favorite post.
Speaker 4: Yes, it was so lovely.
Speaker 5: But I also have to say, like a friend, so
Speaker 5: many friends and me a text.
Speaker 4: I did a video on that on Instagram too of
Speaker 4: people saying you have gained so much weight.
Speaker 5: Good, bravo, thank your body. You just made it through
Speaker 5: a pandemic. What else were you supposed to do? And
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, but that layer of softness welcome it because
Speaker 5: the ship was hard and scary and sharp out there.
Speaker 8: Everybody make it?
Speaker 5: No, you know, and so and and our joy and
Speaker 5: spontaneity was all funneled into very few spaces, most of
Speaker 5: which involved food and drink. So what y'all thought was
Speaker 5: gonna happen? And you well, I've never done that, but
Speaker 5: you know that.
Speaker 4: But don't worry.
Speaker 5: I had It's okay, I'm okay.
Speaker 1: No truth, you never had, no true at all.
Speaker 4: No, and my friends know. I call it the devil's lettuce.
Speaker 6: Why did they let you in? The lyricsis lounge?
Speaker 8: I didn't.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 8: I don't know.
Speaker 2: It can happen. I'm gonna leave bloom or two trades. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I will guide you through this.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've been I've been saying. I mean, I have
Speaker 5: so many stories about me thinking I'm gonna walk that
Speaker 5: way and.
Speaker 6: Wait till fifty. Just go ahead of wait till fifty.
Speaker 5: Okay, maybe it'll be my fiftieth birthday, You're gonna send
Speaker 5: me a package.
Speaker 1: I'll leave the light one for you. Trust me, I
Speaker 1: got I got you, Okay.
Speaker 2: So I always wanted to know, as far as you're
Speaker 2: growing up as concerned and that you were paired with
Speaker 2: other kids that were sort of in the same position
Speaker 2: as you, at what point, at any point, did you
Speaker 2: ever had to adjust in a world in which people
Speaker 2: weren't of that sort of cut from that that same cloth,
Speaker 2: where you had to deal with everyday people, Like, at
Speaker 2: what point.
Speaker 4: Were you every day in life? I mean I was,
Speaker 4: you know.
Speaker 5: I First of all, the way I was raised again
Speaker 5: is everybody is a person.
Speaker 4: I am one of people. I was not raised to
Speaker 4: think I was better than anybody.
Speaker 5: I had certain different opportunities and experiences than other people,
Speaker 5: but I was always taught to connect on the places
Speaker 5: that we are the same. We've all got blood running
Speaker 5: through our veins, and we all have feelings, and we all,
Speaker 5: most of us are getting up every day trying to
Speaker 5: do our best and work our hardest and and sort
Speaker 5: of make at least our lives work.
Speaker 4: And function properly.
Speaker 5: So I also come I don't know if I was
Speaker 5: top this, if I came up with this, if.
Speaker 4: You know, but to sort of put my.
Speaker 5: My humanness as the front runner of who I am not.
Speaker 4: And first of all, I didn't do that. My mom
Speaker 4: did all those things.
Speaker 8: She did.
Speaker 3: She keep you around like a couple of Detroit cousins
Speaker 3: just to make sure it does y'all new.
Speaker 4: I went to Detroit every summer, and that's how you
Speaker 4: do it.
Speaker 5: Yeah, on a palette on the floor and on Bobby's
Speaker 5: house up the street from Grandmammy and Aunt.
Speaker 4: Bobby sat me.
Speaker 5: Between her legs and did my hair with that goodie
Speaker 5: comb and tried to kill my scalp. And you know, Grandmommy,
Speaker 5: my Grandma lined us up outside the fancy bathroom downstairs
Speaker 5: and put all the cousins and put mayonnaise in our
Speaker 5: hair on the on the laid on the kitchen sink,
Speaker 5: put our head in the sink, and then filled our
Speaker 5: hair with mayonnaise. You had to walk around smell on
Speaker 5: like a sandwich forever to getition your hair.
Speaker 4: I mean, all all of our cousins and boys and girls.
Speaker 4: It wasn't just the girl. The girls like the boys
Speaker 4: and girl.
Speaker 5: We all got lined up step and Monica Kevin Kevin
Speaker 5: we all just line up.
Speaker 6: We see that in Rainbow. That is so beautiful, that's dope,
Speaker 6: it's funny.
Speaker 5: So so yeah, that's what I'm saying, Like, we weren't
Speaker 5: sheltered to be up in some crystal palace somewhere, although.
Speaker 4: We lived, you know, in a hotel, and I'm not
Speaker 4: to work in.
Speaker 5: A rolls at the school at a rolls verse every
Speaker 5: day with a driver by the name of Bartha.
Speaker 8: But that's.
Speaker 1: As you do.
Speaker 5: Wait a minute, okay, so yeah, like, okay, so these
Speaker 5: things also did happen.
Speaker 4: I'm not saying they didn't, but.
Speaker 6: Wow, that's amazing.
Speaker 9: Christmas in a ritz.
Speaker 4: But then we were in Detroit in the summer.
Speaker 1: So they did you.
Speaker 2: I know that singing at least when when I first
Speaker 2: met you in the early arts, singing was always a
Speaker 2: big passion of yours. With a household like yours, in
Speaker 2: an environment like you grew up in, how easy was
Speaker 2: it for you to express the desire to want to
Speaker 2: do something in the arts or not be shy about.
Speaker 5: It, Like Harry, My mother supported us in finding our
Speaker 5: version of expression in whatever that looked like.
Speaker 1: But you know, are you the only singing ross?
Speaker 5: No, Roonda is a singer.
Speaker 4: Evan's a singer. I'm the last.
Speaker 1: I forgot your brother, Evan Ross.
Speaker 4: That's okay, I'm the last to the party.
Speaker 5: And it's so funny because I remember, I can't remember
Speaker 5: how many years ago it was, but my mom was
Speaker 5: in Vegas and on stage and she was like, you know,
Speaker 5: my children sing.
Speaker 4: Blah blah blah whatever, and I want to bring someone
Speaker 4: up to sing with me.
Speaker 5: And I'm like standing there, like, go ahead, Evan, go ahead,
Speaker 5: you know whatever, and she said.
Speaker 4: My name, and I was like, with what's happening right now?
Speaker 4: I was like, this is not my thing. I'm the
Speaker 4: funny one. What are we doing? What's happening?
Speaker 5: And she made me sing on stage and it was
Speaker 5: so hilarious because if you watch the video, you see.
Speaker 4: My mom turn into my mom and thinks, oh no.
Speaker 5: Did I just put Tracy put my baby in a
Speaker 5: position that she didn't want to be in inadvertently, like
Speaker 5: did I make her put her, you know, too exposed
Speaker 5: on something that makes her shy?
Speaker 4: And she sort of she got this tone in her
Speaker 4: voice that was such.
Speaker 5: My mom's tone of okay, everybody be quiet because this
Speaker 5: is important, like we need we need to support this moment?
Speaker 4: Be quiet?
Speaker 2: Are you speaking of the infamous when she puts people
Speaker 2: on the spot to sing reach out in touch?
Speaker 5: No, she put me on stage and had me sing
Speaker 5: sing like Billie Holiday. Oh, Like I was sing that
Speaker 5: around the house and she was like, go ahead, did you?
Speaker 5: Because every time I mean, I sang in high school
Speaker 5: and whatever, every time I sang.
Speaker 4: When I was twenty two, my mom said to me,
Speaker 4: all right, Tracy, it's time. And I was like, it's
Speaker 4: time for what? She's like, it's time for you to
Speaker 4: record an album?
Speaker 5: And I was like, hell, no, no, no, no, no no.
Speaker 4: No no no, I'm gonna go the other way.
Speaker 5: Nope, We're gonna make people laugh and we're just gonna
Speaker 5: keep them at arm's length and that'll be good.
Speaker 1: But why, Okay, in hindsight, why do you think that
Speaker 1: was your decision?
Speaker 5: Uh?
Speaker 4: For a lot of reasons.
Speaker 5: I think unconsciously, I the idea of being.
Speaker 4: Compared to my mom was just too much to think of.
Speaker 5: I had also seen children of be obliterated in the press,
Speaker 5: just shredded, And you think back to that time and
Speaker 5: being the child of or any of those things.
Speaker 4: That's not that was not cool.
Speaker 5: Then that was not something that was also the time
Speaker 5: when you didn't move from TV to movies, when you
Speaker 5: didn't move from being a host to an actor, Like
Speaker 5: everything was very pigeonholed, and there certainly wasn't this spirit
Speaker 5: of oh, you're Dona Ross as child. Maybe you want
Speaker 5: to say, well, no, not at all. And I look
Speaker 5: like my mom, And the truth is I sound kind
Speaker 5: of like her. So you know, there was no you
Speaker 5: put you as soon as you put a sparkly dress
Speaker 5: on me. I mean, I've seen it now, I've won
Speaker 5: a Golden Globe. I've been doing working in the I'm
Speaker 5: forty eight years old. I'm not a child anymore, and
Speaker 5: I still cannot do anything without my mom's name.
Speaker 4: Like maybe my mom is just like it's she's larger,
Speaker 4: she's an.
Speaker 1: Interesting let me but let me interject.
Speaker 2: I definitely now feel as though, you know, to Dinah Ross,
Speaker 2: it's like, yo, Tracy Ellis is your daughter, Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you've done You've definitely done something that is I don't
Speaker 2: know if any person, maybe Janet Overcoming who her her
Speaker 2: brothers were to be in her own right, but.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like you made your own name though, Yeah, yeah, you're.
Speaker 2: When history books are written like you know, you have
Speaker 2: your own and not even to compare like that, you know,
Speaker 2: like we can.
Speaker 5: All well that was part of what I came to,
Speaker 5: I mean and understood it's like and an adult mind
Speaker 5: can look at it that way, but a kid cannot.
Speaker 4: And so now I.
Speaker 6: Know, like I'm not my mom right.
Speaker 4: Like I'm not trying to be here, I'm not like never,
Speaker 4: that's not what's happening. But as a kid, you think you.
Speaker 3: Know and you have something that's really super special. I
Speaker 3: was going to ask you because your production company is
Speaker 3: named Joy Mills, but I'm assuming that you're aware that
Speaker 3: you have that superpower and that's why you named it that.
Speaker 3: Are you aware that like Tracy Ella's Ross is a
Speaker 3: joy bringer.
Speaker 4: That like makes my heart very very full.
Speaker 6: I'm just trying to tell you.
Speaker 4: My I was born Tracy Joy Silverstein. That's my name,
Speaker 4: so right.
Speaker 6: Now, so because I'm like, well what about mister Ellen.
Speaker 5: Okay, okay, go ahead, Okay, So this is and that
Speaker 5: was the third point okay about my dad.
Speaker 4: So when I joined so like many kids, uh so.
Speaker 5: Then I was Tracy Joy Ross Silberstein. All through growing up,
Speaker 5: t j R S were my initials all through growing up.
Speaker 5: But then, like so many people, you dropped this name.
Speaker 5: That name is too long. I was Tracy Joy Ross.
Speaker 5: You know what I mean, drop these names too many names.
Speaker 5: So I became Tracy Joy Ross. And then when I
Speaker 5: joined SAG there was another Tracy Ross.
Speaker 4: In the Union. Remember Tracy Ross. She was.
Speaker 5: Yes.
Speaker 8: I thought, yeah, that very god she grew up.
Speaker 1: Wow, I didn't know you were my age.
Speaker 6: I thought like, you know, we don't all look alike.
Speaker 6: They looked nothing alive.
Speaker 2: I heard the name Tracy Ellis. I remember watching that
Speaker 2: Tracy Ross on Star Search.
Speaker 6: He was a hero.
Speaker 2: And then she thought like, oh, that's Diana Ross's daughter.
Speaker 2: That's the one she talked about.
Speaker 5: When I joined the Union, there was another Tracy Ross.
Speaker 5: So they were like, uh, do you want to be
Speaker 5: Tracy Joy Ross in the Union? And I was like yes,
Speaker 5: But everybody like I look like my mom, and people
Speaker 5: know I'm my mom's child and I'm so much a
Speaker 5: product of both of my parents, Like.
Speaker 4: I am my dad's child and I'm my mom's child.
Speaker 4: And I wanted him to have a steak.
Speaker 5: You know, it's so crazy because I talk so much
Speaker 5: about women and women of color, and particularly black and
Speaker 5: brown women that we historically have not had a steak
Speaker 5: in what we make, and even with our children, we
Speaker 5: give up our name, and so there's often this you
Speaker 5: can't I even follow our bloodline because of that. But
Speaker 5: we have been at the center of economic, cultural, political
Speaker 5: revolutions in this country, and we are often doing the work,
Speaker 5: but not centered in the prize from that work. And
Speaker 5: strangely enough, I was worried about my dad having a
Speaker 5: piece of what he made, and so I put Ellis
Speaker 5: in my name and I became Tracy Ellis Ross at
Speaker 5: the beginning of my career, and my first you know,
Speaker 5: SAG card was Tracy Ellis Ross. And now you know,
Speaker 5: my name goes up there and people go and Bob
Speaker 5: Elis's kid.
Speaker 2: Okay, what was the first major creative thing that you
Speaker 2: at least for you, What was the first major creative
Speaker 2: thing that you did as far as doing television or
Speaker 2: commercials or well, the.
Speaker 5: First big thing I did was the gap ad with
Speaker 5: my mom. Yeah, and I remember it was on billboards
Speaker 5: and it was like a big.
Speaker 4: Wall in airport.
Speaker 5: I walked through and I was just like, oh my god,
Speaker 5: I made fifteen hundred dollars and I thought I had made.
Speaker 4: I was like, I'm rich. I don't my mother.
Speaker 6: I'm rich.
Speaker 4: I was like, that was so amazing. I could pay
Speaker 4: my own doctor's fees. I can just I can make
Speaker 4: my own food.
Speaker 1: Was a crowd.
Speaker 4: I was so much money. I was like, I was like,
Speaker 4: I will never work again.
Speaker 5: I actually think it was it was seven hundred and
Speaker 5: fifty dollars and then I think I made fifteen hundred
Speaker 5: on the first show I did. But then the next
Speaker 5: thing was I did an Infinity commercial. So I was
Speaker 5: modeling with Wilhelmine Agency and I went in for.
Speaker 4: A modeling like commercial job and go see.
Speaker 5: And at the place where they were doing it, they
Speaker 5: were like, the people that are doing me. It was
Speaker 5: a secret deodorant ad I went in for and there
Speaker 5: was a sign in sheet next to it for Infinity
Speaker 5: car commercial and whoever ran the commercial audition place was like,
Speaker 5: you should go in and try for the Infinity commercial.
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh, yes, of course I'll drive.
Speaker 5: So I went in and that was the job that
Speaker 5: taft heart lead me into SAG, which is the job
Speaker 5: that will pay the money to get you into SAG.
Speaker 10: And yeah, I just love the idea that Tracy Els
Speaker 10: had to Taft Hartley. I mean, I've done that and
Speaker 10: it just just makes me laugh. That's okay, keep continuing, please,
Speaker 10: But also also, why are there not people with multiple
Speaker 10: names in SAG? Couldn't there be multiple Tracy?
Speaker 1: Really?
Speaker 6: But Nessa Williams Remember Vanessa william.
Speaker 1: L Williams Vanessa L Williams. Yeah, well shit, okay, cool, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I learned something again.
Speaker 4: So I got taft heart lead in.
Speaker 5: I did that commercial and then I don't know.
Speaker 4: I mean, it has not been a fast and easy
Speaker 4: road for me.
Speaker 5: I remember there was a movie called Mixing Nia that
Speaker 5: Karen Parsons from Fresh Press. She ended up getting that movie,
Speaker 5: and I've never been more devastated in my life.
Speaker 1: Really.
Speaker 7: I was like, I mean, I was sure a meror
Speaker 7: that this was going to launch me into.
Speaker 8: The stratosphere of the Roscar.
Speaker 7: I was going to the Academy Awards with my seven
Speaker 7: hundred and fifty dollars from my gap aad. I was
Speaker 7: going to march my way into Hollywood and be received
Speaker 7: with open arms for a career that would last a lifetime.
Speaker 5: Didn't happen.
Speaker 2: What is that process like? Like your version of the
Speaker 2: Hollywood Shuffle? As far as callbacks near missus, what did
Speaker 2: you audition for that you didn't get?
Speaker 6: Oh my god, I don't even remember.
Speaker 5: I had a three ring binder, like one of those
Speaker 5: Whopper three ringfinders of like every audition I had auditioned for.
Speaker 6: I didn't care.
Speaker 1: You keep all the receipts of everything.
Speaker 5: I didn't get nothing, really well, because according to us,
Speaker 5: it's like Daddy's Girls.
Speaker 6: I had no in right, Like, I'm trying to think no, no, no, no.
Speaker 5: There from from the time that I did I did
Speaker 5: Far Harbor, that first movie I did with Jennifer Connelly
Speaker 5: and Marsha k Harden. Okay, so I did that, and
Speaker 5: then I did the show and before that, I did
Speaker 5: the show The Dish on Lifetime.
Speaker 4: That was because I'm a TV girl. I live in
Speaker 4: your TV and I'm a TV girl, like like it
Speaker 4: was like.
Speaker 5: A magazine show about TV shows.
Speaker 6: What nothing? He ain't say nothing, he says, she.
Speaker 1: Said, first, I'm like.
Speaker 6: I started watching Lifetime.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, you know.
Speaker 5: And and then I got an agent and auditioned and
Speaker 5: auditioned and auditioned and auditioned and auditioned and auditioned and
Speaker 5: auditioned and auditioned, and I auditioned some more and I
Speaker 5: didn't get many callbacks, and then they dropped me. And
Speaker 5: this is what they said.
Speaker 4: It stuck with me for a really long time.
Speaker 5: Listen, Tracy, We're gonna let you go because you come
Speaker 5: with all these bells and whistles, but then you get
Speaker 5: in the room and you just don't pop?
Speaker 3: Would you face bitch?
Speaker 4: I could, but you know what, it was a turning
Speaker 4: point for crazy.
Speaker 5: I could not get out of there without those you know,
Speaker 5: those tears they sit.
Speaker 4: There because you're so ha you know those office chairs
Speaker 4: with the wheels of the the wheels on the bottom
Speaker 4: of them.
Speaker 5: I felt like my heart had come out and it
Speaker 5: was like stuck underneath the wheel and she kept moving
Speaker 5: the chair and it was just getting all tangled in
Speaker 5: there with my heart and then there was blood and
Speaker 5: stuff and then the tears, and I couldn't get out
Speaker 5: fast enough. But I made a decision at that point.
Speaker 5: I remember calling my sister.
Speaker 11: I called I was like, I don't I don't wop I.
Speaker 5: Know no popper.
Speaker 6: Stand up.
Speaker 2: At any point, did you ever consider dropping the ross
Speaker 2: from your name? It was too late the thought that like, okay,
Speaker 2: maybe they're holding that against me, like my lineage and well, you.
Speaker 4: Know I used to say that.
Speaker 7: People were like, well, doesn't being done roszda open doors
Speaker 7: for you?
Speaker 5: And I was like, no, what it does is and
Speaker 5: unlocks the door. And then people sit on the other
Speaker 5: side like, going, how's she going.
Speaker 4: To walk in?
Speaker 1: Oh?
Speaker 4: They're like, okay, show us what. But I don't think
Speaker 4: that had anything to do with it. I think I sucked.
Speaker 5: I think I didn't know how to bring the person
Speaker 5: that I was inside myself and in the privacy of
Speaker 5: my home out into the world. And I needed that
Speaker 5: hit in order to ask myself, did I have the
Speaker 5: courage to do what it took to bring.
Speaker 4: That person out? Or did I just.
Speaker 5: Want to go back into my hole and sort of
Speaker 5: live privately as I chose?
Speaker 8: You know.
Speaker 1: That was Tracy Ellis Ross.
Speaker 2: And next up is Shirley Jones at The Jones Girls
Speaker 2: and this clip she speaks about the power of Tracy's mom,
Speaker 2: Diana Ross, and the sexism that went into see a
Speaker 2: strong black woman who was a perfectionist and the early
Speaker 2: nineteen seventies. Shirley also tells how Diana made a way
Speaker 2: for her as an artist outside of an accomplished background singer.
Speaker 1: Shirley also speaks about a powerful anthem for women nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy nine, so You're Gonna make Me love somebody.
Speaker 2: Else sampled by Jay Z, as well as being covered
Speaker 2: by Escape in the nineteen nineties. There's some great history here,
Speaker 2: Shirley Jones from twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: What was it like to finally land that job?
Speaker 8: It was amazing. We actually, we were perfectly happy. We
Speaker 8: had just moved to Detroit to LA with McKinley Jackson.
Speaker 8: He was managing us at the time, and we were
Speaker 8: perfectly happy doing background sessions because because we were doing
Speaker 8: like three and four day it was either us or
Speaker 8: the waters that people wanted to do their water back then,
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, those are my buddies. Yeah, it was either
Speaker 8: us or them. That's who we were, those premier groups
Speaker 8: for background singing back then. And McKinley said, well, you know,
Speaker 8: Diana's auditioning for some singers and she's been turning everybody down,
Speaker 8: and you know, and I and he said, you guys
Speaker 8: want to try We like Diana. Yeah, I mean, you know,
Speaker 8: we're from Detroit. Hey, let's give it a shot. And
Speaker 8: so we went up there actually thinking we were singing
Speaker 8: for gil Aski, her music director and her road manager
Speaker 8: Don Peak up lower canyon somewhere and we went up
Speaker 8: there and McKinley started playing. We had rehearsed ain't no
Speaker 8: mountain high enough and reach out and touch somebody's hand
Speaker 8: for our audition, and right in the middle of singing,
Speaker 8: who comes down the hall but Diana Ross and yeah,
Speaker 8: And the only words out of her mouth was, you
Speaker 8: guys are terrific. Can you get passports? We're going to London?
Speaker 8: And we, of course, you know, we were like, yeah,
Speaker 8: we can go to London, but we had to work
Speaker 8: out some things on our contract because of our background singing,
Speaker 8: which she did allow. We traveled seven months of the
Speaker 8: year with her, and then when she was on hiatus,
Speaker 8: she did allow us to keep our background singing. Career.
Speaker 2: For other artists, I failed you, she ailed you and retainer,
Speaker 2: but you were allowed to We were.
Speaker 8: Allowed to sing, right, but we were still getting you know,
Speaker 8: we were getting half of our paycheck when she was
Speaker 8: when she wasn't working, but she still allowed us to
Speaker 8: do our singing, our background singing. And over the years
Speaker 8: I have defended and set said so many people have said,
Speaker 8: what was she like? I hear, you know, she's this,
Speaker 8: she's that, and the other. I said, let me just
Speaker 8: tell you one thing. She was the hottest entertainer in
Speaker 8: the world back in the seventies. Absolutely nobody was bigger
Speaker 8: than Diana Ross except maybe Frank Sinatra. And she was
Speaker 8: a perfectionist. She was a female, and she was demanding.
Speaker 8: She demanded that her from her band to her singers
Speaker 8: to be as into the show and rehearse and be
Speaker 8: on top of your gig as she was. And because
Speaker 8: that was drilled in us, and that's what we did. Anyway.
Speaker 8: She was absolutely one of the best people to work for,
Speaker 8: and she was so concerned for us because up until
Speaker 8: we went to London with her, the only places we
Speaker 8: had been was Detroit surrounding areas and then California. And
Speaker 8: she loved and respected our sounds so much that after
Speaker 8: the European tour is when she came to us, she
Speaker 8: was getting ready to do her yearly twice a year
Speaker 8: residency at Caesar's Palace, and she came to us and said,
Speaker 8: you know, you girls are too good to be singing
Speaker 8: background behind me or anybody else whatever, So you know,
Speaker 8: I changed clothes at least five times in my show.
Speaker 8: I want you to get a song together and i
Speaker 8: want you to sing it. I'm gonna bring you out
Speaker 8: the Jones sisters and I'm gonna introduce you to the world.
Speaker 8: And that's actually she did that. We chose if I
Speaker 8: Ever Lose This Heaven from Quincy Jones' album that was
Speaker 8: hot back then, and uh, that's how we got with
Speaker 8: gamb One Huff at the theater, yeah, the subar s Yeah,
Speaker 8: from the Schubert Theater, and she called us and Cynthia
Speaker 8: Biggs and Dexter Wanzelle they were in the audience and
Speaker 8: they said all they could think about and look at
Speaker 8: during the whole show was us. They kept saying, you
Speaker 8: hear those girls, you hear her background singers, they're tearing
Speaker 8: it up and Gambling Huff came backstage and they said,
Speaker 8: you guys are terrific. Are you signed with anybody? And
Speaker 8: we're like no, And we're like, oh my god, gamb
Speaker 8: when I'm asking us if we're signed with anybody? And
Speaker 8: so we went back to LA and within a month
Speaker 8: we had our attorneys did we worked out the deal,
Speaker 8: and within two months we were flown to Philadelphia to
Speaker 8: work on that first Jones Girls album.
Speaker 1: Wow, Yes, that's amazing, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: Wait a minute, I always wanted to know was this
Speaker 2: the tour where she would it would start with the
Speaker 2: video thing with the guys carrying her open.
Speaker 8: No, No, this was before then, okay, because.
Speaker 2: I always wanted to know how she did that illusion. No, Okay,
Speaker 2: I was a kid when I see it, like a
Speaker 2: long time ago.
Speaker 8: But yeah, wow.
Speaker 3: Can you also talk about like the gig with her
Speaker 3: and how it was different than other background kids as
Speaker 3: far as like she said she changed her clothes five times,
Speaker 3: did you guys get to change your clothes? Did you
Speaker 3: have the same outfit you had to wear every night
Speaker 3: or what? Because it was Diana Ross, y'all had like
Speaker 3: a nice rotation, and what did.
Speaker 6: She require before every show?
Speaker 3: As far as we hur soul and stuff like that,
Speaker 3: it's the comparison to everybody else you work for.
Speaker 8: With her being a perfectionist. We rehearsed a lot before
Speaker 8: we would go out on tour with her. I mean
Speaker 8: we rehearsed a lot. And yes she did curse. She
Speaker 8: would come in there and if you if the bad
Speaker 8: and she never had to curse with us because we
Speaker 8: were gonna be on top of our game. But if
Speaker 8: she would, she would curse them out. And I and
Speaker 8: you know, and I often tell people, I said, now,
Speaker 8: if she were a man like Frank Sinatra coming out
Speaker 8: cursing because somebody wasn't doing their absolute best and she
Speaker 8: felt that they should be, he'd be applauded. He would
Speaker 8: be applauded and said, oh, he's just such a strong individual.
Speaker 8: He's he'd make sure that, you know. But because she's
Speaker 8: a woman, and she was that demanding at that time,
Speaker 8: you know, women weren't supposed to, you know, come if
Speaker 8: you done, weren't doing your job. You were supposed to
Speaker 8: be demure and say well would you please? You know,
Speaker 8: she would come in there cursing like us, saying oh, yeah.
Speaker 6: Beyond it makes me think of Beyonce is allowed to
Speaker 6: be today?
Speaker 8: Yeah exactly, So I gets I give I give her
Speaker 8: kudos because she was demanding, yes she was, but she
Speaker 8: was also she would she would also make sure that
Speaker 8: she was doing the you know, as far as rehearsing too,
Speaker 8: she was always always immaculate, impeccable. Two people that I
Speaker 8: learned the most from as far as entertaining myself. I
Speaker 8: always say, is Diana Ross and Eddie Lebert from the
Speaker 8: o Jays because they are show people. Absolutely show people
Speaker 8: can't wait to hear.
Speaker 1: What can Yeah, I want I want to know for you?
Speaker 2: Or is it a thing where the grass is greener
Speaker 2: On the other side, do you prefer studio sessions or
Speaker 2: do you prefer uh traveling? This I'm talking in strictly
Speaker 2: in terms of your days as a background singer.
Speaker 8: As a background singer, I prefer being in the studio. Yeah,
Speaker 8: I prefer being in the studio because I'm more of
Speaker 8: a like Well, when we were traveling doing background for her,
Speaker 8: that was exciting because that was the first time we
Speaker 8: you know, we're traveling doing background and making money. But now,
Speaker 8: I mean I prefer doing studio work versus traveling singing
Speaker 8: background for someone.
Speaker 2: Isn't it a bigger pressure though in the studio because
Speaker 2: I'm almost certain that there's you know, there's really not
Speaker 2: enough time for you to you borderline, have to catch
Speaker 2: it and perfect it in you know, in a short
Speaker 2: amount of time, I would assume correct, Yes.
Speaker 8: Yeah, in real time. That's one of the reasons why
Speaker 8: but so many people wanted us to do background because
Speaker 8: they knew that we were going to rehearse so much
Speaker 8: so that when we got in the studio, you know,
Speaker 8: time is money, we would knock that stuff out just
Speaker 8: like that. That's why some some sometimes we would have
Speaker 8: two and three sessions a day because we were able to.
Speaker 8: We would rehearse and practice our parts for whoever, and
Speaker 8: to make sure that when we went in the studio
Speaker 8: bam bam bam, we could do it. And you know,
Speaker 8: back in the day, you're talking about eight tracks, and
Speaker 8: you're talking about not being able to sing one little
Speaker 8: part and then they fly it through the song. You
Speaker 8: had to sing that exact same way four and five,
Speaker 8: you know, three to double it and and uh so.
Speaker 8: And I think that's one of the reasons why the
Speaker 8: artists today today don't as far as live performances. They
Speaker 8: cannot do it like us that were trained to have
Speaker 8: to sing a song all the way through three and
Speaker 8: four different times to stack that harmony and sound the
Speaker 8: exact same way each time.
Speaker 1: Right, I see, I agree. I agree with you.
Speaker 3: Curious who were your peers or I don't want to
Speaker 3: say competitors, but who were the peers who if you
Speaker 3: can't get the Jones sisters.
Speaker 6: You know, we should call so and so the waters.
Speaker 8: That was it. It was ya and it was us
Speaker 8: in California for the longest. Yeah, that was it.
Speaker 6: I'm sorry.
Speaker 8: Yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what I know you mentioned working under Holadozah
Speaker 2: Holland when you came to Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: What year was that.
Speaker 8: We went to Los Angeles in nineteen seventy five? Yeah,
Speaker 8: about seventy five seventy six, that's when Motown moved and
Speaker 8: then you know they had given Hollandojah Holland the Invictus
Speaker 8: and the music Merchant labels, right, and I think Motown
Speaker 8: moved what in seventy three seventy four, and then those
Speaker 8: like McKinley and Hollandojah Holland moved out I think seventy five.
Speaker 2: So it was just basically everyone in Detroit was migrating
Speaker 2: to Los Angeles and we might as well follow suit
Speaker 2: and follow them as well.
Speaker 8: Follow them exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: I see.
Speaker 2: Could you tell me, like, what other notable acts were
Speaker 2: you singing background for that we might not be aware of.
Speaker 8: Helen Ready share songs? Yeah, Helen Ready. Oh my god,
Speaker 8: somebody just posted it the other day. I forgot that
Speaker 8: song that we did for her, we did the entire
Speaker 8: album because she just passed I think recently, and someone
Speaker 8: posted it.
Speaker 1: And share I share like half read or take Me Home.
Speaker 8: Or I forgot what song. But the song that we
Speaker 8: did do for share, I don't think it made the album, okay,
Speaker 8: but we did a session. We did a session because
Speaker 8: we did two songs with her and they never met.
Speaker 8: I don't think they made the album. Now, somebody's gonna
Speaker 8: probably prove me wrong and post it.
Speaker 2: You know, I know that you've done background on some
Speaker 2: notable affilly international songs as well.
Speaker 1: So am I to assume.
Speaker 2: That you're you're basically all the female voices that I
Speaker 2: hear on like You'll never find another love like Mine
Speaker 2: and those those songs as well, like with Lou Rawl's.
Speaker 8: And now we did do Lou Rawl's album. There was
Speaker 8: a group of girls in Philadelphia, Okay, I can't think
Speaker 8: of their names that were doing and a lot of
Speaker 8: background singing for Gambling them because once we became the
Speaker 8: Jones girls, you know, we didn't do as much background
Speaker 8: singing for other people once we got with Gambling Huff
Speaker 8: in seventy nine, just select people, you know, when we
Speaker 8: had the time because you know, with you're going to
Speaker 8: make me love somebody else coming out the box being
Speaker 8: so big, we immediate get Gamble, immediately sent us to
Speaker 8: Ohio with Charlie Atkins, who put the OJS and Temptations
Speaker 8: with him, and we were we were rehearsing to go
Speaker 8: out on tour with the OJS. Oh yes, oh man.
Speaker 2: He.
Speaker 5: Was.
Speaker 8: He was. And I have two left feet, so he
Speaker 8: was always on me. He was constantly on me because
Speaker 8: I'm not. I was the only one that couldn't dance.
Speaker 8: Brendan Valleie could dance, you know, and me, I'd always
Speaker 8: tried to, Well, I'm saying and lead anyway. Can I
Speaker 8: just stand on? No, you cannot. You're gonna do those
Speaker 8: You're doing them too, girl. So oh he was a testent.
Speaker 8: You just just eat a banana. Eat a banana before
Speaker 8: you come in here to rehearsal for that potassium so
Speaker 8: you could move those feet. He was a drill master.
Speaker 2: No, I heard every every act that's ever worked with him.
Speaker 2: Oh wait, what what period were you guys?
Speaker 8: Uh?
Speaker 1: With Aretha Franklin.
Speaker 8: We did the Almighty Fire album with her.
Speaker 2: Oh God, yes, only only say this.
Speaker 1: Because the kind of the kind of household I grew
Speaker 1: up in. I would. I grew up with.
Speaker 2: Three binge shoppers when it came to records, so like
Speaker 2: every week, stacks and stacks and stacks of forty five
Speaker 2: stacks and stacks and stacks of thirty three's would.
Speaker 1: Come in the house.
Speaker 2: The thing is is that I would get the records
Speaker 2: that my parents didn't want. So, you know, as far
Speaker 2: as my Aretha collection, like there there was a period
Speaker 2: like Almighty Fire, the U record all the way up
Speaker 2: to La Diva, like basically the post Sparkle records that
Speaker 2: really weren't hitting the same right I inherited, So I
Speaker 2: know all those like Sweet Passion, like all those Aretha
Speaker 2: records that weren't quite you know up there with the
Speaker 2: legacy albums.
Speaker 1: What was it like?
Speaker 2: Oh god, and she was wearing that space suit too, yep,
Speaker 2: the Green Space I remember that that period.
Speaker 1: What was it like?
Speaker 2: And how intimidating is it you know working with her?
Speaker 2: Or was she just you know, another Detroit person that
Speaker 2: you could connect with.
Speaker 8: Well, we had sang as children at her father's church
Speaker 8: with my mother one Sunday when we were there. I
Speaker 8: believe it was one of her father's anniversary, and we
Speaker 8: knew that she was going to be there. At that time,
Speaker 8: she was she was a superstar. She had respect out,
Speaker 8: you know, she was like and they said she was
Speaker 8: going to be at the church. And after we performed,
Speaker 8: she came up to my mother and said, boy, those
Speaker 8: are some singing girls you got there. And then fast
Speaker 8: forward like fifteen years later, we were doing Almighty Fire.
Speaker 8: And what a lot of people don't know is that
Speaker 8: when that Sparkle movie was, you know, they were looking
Speaker 8: for the actor, the actors and actresses for that movie.
Speaker 8: Aretha Franklin and Kenny Gamble wanted us to play the sisters.
Speaker 8: Aretha put pitched in for She wanted us to do
Speaker 8: it because because of our voices and we had just
Speaker 8: sang on her album, and Kenny felt that that would
Speaker 8: be a great We were the you know, the Jones girls.
Speaker 8: He felt that we were just coming out that they
Speaker 8: sent us to New York and a limo and uh
Speaker 8: it was uh. I think they both were very and
Speaker 8: I know we were disappointed, Uh, especially when uh and
Speaker 8: you know Aretha she was activist, but back then, especially
Speaker 8: when those girls, they you know, was very light, bright
Speaker 8: girls that got the part her thing was to them
Speaker 8: was you know this, this is ridiculous. Those girls can
Speaker 8: you know they they're they're singers and they could be
Speaker 8: taught to be actresses too, and she she was quite
Speaker 8: upset about that.
Speaker 1: So there was almost a chance that you could have yeah, sparkle.
Speaker 6: Yes sing the songs.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Was there was there ever a background gig that you
Speaker 2: had that was like a little too intimidating or that
Speaker 2: you you know, it was just all right to you.
Speaker 8: Now, we we no matter who the artist was, and
Speaker 8: there were a lot of artists that you know, hadn't
Speaker 8: even made it yet. But you know, if we liked
Speaker 8: the song, and you know, they they were willing to pay,
Speaker 8: because pay the money, you know, we were we would
Speaker 8: do it and we would give our best. And the
Speaker 8: thing that a lot of people don't know is that
Speaker 8: for another reason why so many people liked us is
Speaker 8: because we created a lot of those backgrounds. They knew
Speaker 8: that if they gave us the song, we were going
Speaker 8: to create the background parts. Yeah, I mean arrangement, some
Speaker 8: some on some for a lot. Now some did come with,
Speaker 8: you know, specific backgrounds, but our reputation became such that
Speaker 8: they'd be like Okay, well, hey, here's the song. What
Speaker 8: do you guys think you know, no Norman Connors, Lou Rawls.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 8: Else that we they've let us do, just you know,
Speaker 8: control the background. God, it's so many people.
Speaker 3: Just songs. But you were just like artists that were like,
Speaker 3: it don't matter what song I'm doing. Let the Jones girls.
Speaker 8: Come in here and do and do our thing. Now.
Speaker 8: Brenda was alive because her memory is so much better
Speaker 8: than mine. She she she can remember every single artist
Speaker 8: we did background on and everything. But but me, it
Speaker 8: gets a little fuzzy sometime because when people post stuff
Speaker 8: now and I'll be like, oh, yeah, I remember that
Speaker 8: we did do that song, you know.
Speaker 2: So so with with signing to Philly International, I'll say
Speaker 2: that probably in my opinion, because you know, we my
Speaker 2: dad purchased all the records and played it at the
Speaker 2: house all the time, I will say that you guys
Speaker 2: were probably given them more contemporary, up to date town
Speaker 2: than a lot of the acts that were on Philly
Speaker 2: International back then. Like it was almost a thing where
Speaker 2: you know, you knew instantly within the first two seconds
Speaker 2: that you were listening to a Filly International song based
Speaker 2: on like the trademark of the strings and all the
Speaker 2: mixing on the record or whatever, but like, You're gonna
Speaker 2: make me love somebody else sounded nothing like what Philadelphia,
Speaker 2: especially what was happening in nineteen seventy nine, if anything, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: because it.
Speaker 6: Was like a woman telling me you better get your
Speaker 6: shit together.
Speaker 8: Right exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So what I mean, I would assume that it's
Speaker 2: still the same group of people, like it's still dexter
Speaker 2: Anzel and Gambling Huff and all those Well, I know
Speaker 2: McKinley Jackson also worked on the record as well, But right, like,
Speaker 2: what was the discussion basically on how to present you
Speaker 2: guys in your sound.
Speaker 8: That's one of the things that I think Gamble and
Speaker 8: Hope they were purposely trying to take us away just
Speaker 8: a little bit for from the the strings and horns
Speaker 8: of like say, like of what they did with three
Speaker 8: Degrees three Degrees, and wanted they wanted us to be
Speaker 8: more funky, more soulful, more R and B And if
Speaker 8: you noticed the very first Jones Girls album, that's exactly
Speaker 8: I mean. I'm at your Mercies on there, which is
Speaker 8: a you know, heart wrenching ballad.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 8: Then of course there's You're Gonna make Me love somebody else? Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 8: So yeah, who Can I Run To? Us? Yep?
Speaker 1: What were your feelings on?
Speaker 2: Of course, not what your feelings on were you How
Speaker 2: did it feel for Escape to sort of reintroduce that
Speaker 2: song onto a holy generation?
Speaker 8: Yeah? When I when I heard it, when I first
Speaker 8: heard it, it was well nineteen ninety five, so by
Speaker 8: that time it was sixteen years future from when we
Speaker 8: did it, and so many I remember so many of
Speaker 8: the producers when Gambled back in the day, you know,
Speaker 8: you had a A side and a B side on records,
Speaker 8: and who Can I Run To? Was on the B side.
Speaker 8: So many people did not want Gamble to put that.
Speaker 8: They said, put show love today, put anything on that
Speaker 8: on the B side of You're Gonna make Me Love
Speaker 8: somebody else? Besides who Can I Run To? Because that
Speaker 8: is a that is a single of its own. But
Speaker 8: of course that didn't happen. So n I mean we
Speaker 8: you know, we were working and and the girls and
Speaker 8: I had broken up by then, and when we heard
Speaker 8: who Can I Run To? I was happy actually because
Speaker 8: back then when their record came out, there were so
Speaker 8: many DJs that were, you know, into new that we
Speaker 8: had done it first, because people used to flip it
Speaker 8: on the radio sometimes and play who Can I Run to?
Speaker 8: So what they would do is like, yeah, I know
Speaker 8: you guys love this one by Escape, but guess what
Speaker 8: Escape didn't do it first the Jones. Then they would
Speaker 8: play our version too and have people call in which
Speaker 8: version they like the best, and all of that. And
Speaker 8: I happened to the girls on a radio show some
Speaker 8: years back, and they said, we hope we did a
Speaker 8: good job, but we just love you guys and love
Speaker 8: you all sound. And I told them, I said, you
Speaker 8: all did a great job because what you did was
Speaker 8: you brought back a lot of attention to the Jones girls,
Speaker 8: so I was saying, I told them, I said, so, hey,
Speaker 8: thank you, thank you all, because it brought back some attention.
Speaker 8: Because I mean, up until you know, from sixteen years later,
Speaker 8: you know, we had kind of died out, like we
Speaker 8: weren't together anymore. We had done we would do some
Speaker 8: things occasionally over in Europe, but it was it brought
Speaker 8: back a lot of attention and put that Jones girl's
Speaker 8: name back out there.
Speaker 2: And last week's episode, we heard an excerpt from my
Speaker 2: one on one with Kathleen Henna. A few years earlier,
Speaker 2: we spoke to Sleeeder Kenny, and in this group, Carrie
Speaker 2: and Korn speak about Kathleen's influence and the Riot Girl movement.
Speaker 2: You also hear about being a part of a strong
Speaker 2: community and the challenges of fame and success coming out
Speaker 2: of that. At what point for the both of you,
Speaker 2: are you realizing that you have a voice or that
Speaker 2: music is something that you're interested in pursuing, not just
Speaker 2: something that casually that just happens, you know, in your household.
Speaker 12: I think for me, I I moved to Olympia to
Speaker 12: go to college. I went to like, you know, the
Speaker 12: Evergreen State College when all of the stuff was happening,
Speaker 12: and I have to credit Bikini Kill and Brat Mobile
Speaker 12: playing a show, and I was just I just got
Speaker 12: to be like right up close, like right there when
Speaker 12: they were doing their thing, and I was like, I
Speaker 12: want to do that. I'm going to start a band,
Speaker 12: and I in my head I started a band Like
Speaker 12: that night. I was just like I'm in I'm doing
Speaker 12: it too, okay, you know, because I saw them do it.
Speaker 12: They were my age and they were they were just
Speaker 12: starting out, and so it just like opened the door.
Speaker 2: He explained to me the whole idea of what Rye
Speaker 2: Girl represents, and is that a title that was invented
Speaker 2: by the proprietors or again, was it some guy from
Speaker 2: Spin magazine sort of searching for the next big thing
Speaker 2: and then said, okay, this right girl with a bunch
Speaker 2: of rs in it.
Speaker 12: No, it was it was actually like a a genuine movement,
Speaker 12: you know. It was the title was you know, started
Speaker 12: by a young woman in DC who was like, we
Speaker 12: need to start an actual movement for women in the
Speaker 12: independent music scene that that highlights women's roles and supports
Speaker 12: women and talks about safe spaces for women. And there
Speaker 12: were meetings. You could go to a meeting you could
Speaker 12: talk about all these things. You could talk about, you know,
Speaker 12: being in a bad relationship, sexual assault, like all.
Speaker 13: Of the kind of like taboo stuff at.
Speaker 9: The time at that time.
Speaker 12: Yeah, at the time, there just wasn't another space for
Speaker 12: that stuff to come out and happen.
Speaker 8: So it was it was very real. It was very.
Speaker 13: Taboo at the time.
Speaker 12: And you know Kathleen Hannah was she was you know,
Speaker 12: very much like a cultural leader, right, she was like
Speaker 12: our poet because she was writing this stuff that she
Speaker 12: was incredible poet, incredible writer and performer, you know, and
Speaker 12: very confrontational. But she was saying all the stuff that
Speaker 12: we were all like so afraid to say ourselves.
Speaker 2: Okay, So the first time I met Kathleen Hanna, I
Speaker 2: didn't know I was mean, Like I didn't know anything
Speaker 2: about Rye girl whatever. Like the Roots are just doing
Speaker 2: a show somewhere up in Seattle. I forget the spot
Speaker 2: in Seattle that we were playing. I know it was
Speaker 2: across the sheet from the spot where they throw fish.
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, the showbox.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were at the showbox. Yeah, I'll say that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I met.
Speaker 2: Matter of fact, the first three times I've met or
Speaker 2: seen Kathleen, she was like cursing someone out like it
Speaker 2: was always like.
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: And my manager of Rich was they those two were
Speaker 2: like really good friends. So he's sort of my manager
Speaker 2: who passed away. Him and her really became good friends.
Speaker 1: And you know, he just liked, that makes all the sense.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you see it down here and you describe,
Speaker 2: Oh my god, that makes ye.
Speaker 1: Oh that's how it really shit, Like my shit is
Speaker 1: all trickles down.
Speaker 2: Economics were Rich and him, Him and Kathleen were like
Speaker 2: talking whatever, Like I mean, but she was just I've
Speaker 2: never seen the person so just wild and unhinged and
Speaker 2: just told what the fuck she felt and all that.
Speaker 2: Like I was just like, yoh, this is unheard of whatever.
Speaker 2: So that that was like my introduction to her. She
Speaker 2: was cool and very nice to us, but like in
Speaker 2: a second, she will she'll bring the ruckus and I've
Speaker 2: just never seen that shit, so you know, and I
Speaker 2: don't really be like, oh intense or whatever, but that's
Speaker 2: what it was like for me meeting her. So could
Speaker 2: you tell me what the environment was, at least at
Speaker 2: the time in the Northwest that really prompted this movement
Speaker 2: to really find its legs.
Speaker 12: Yeah, I mean, you know, the Northwest was was this
Speaker 12: hotbed of like independent music. So there was all of
Speaker 12: this like criticism of mainstream music that was you know,
Speaker 12: that wasn't genuine, It wasn't you know, real art and everything.
Speaker 12: And this music scene was about you know, like real
Speaker 12: people telling their stories and making music available to everyone,
Speaker 12: so you know, five dollars shows.
Speaker 13: And all of that.
Speaker 12: But it was also this kind of like slam dancing,
Speaker 12: rather violent culture at every show, and so there was
Speaker 12: just not a lot of space for women to feel like,
Speaker 12: am I going to be safe going to this show?
Speaker 12: Am I going to feel like I you know, my
Speaker 12: voice is heard? And the roles for women were still
Speaker 12: like oh yeah, you know, my boyfriend's.
Speaker 13: In that band, and right, and.
Speaker 12: And just like when we're still yeah a foil. And
Speaker 12: so when you had a personality like Kathleen who was
Speaker 12: like protagonist, right, so she was like center stage at
Speaker 12: all times, it was like an arrow like shot through
Speaker 12: our hearts. It was like, I want to be like that.
Speaker 12: Like I'm I was a shy, awkward, kind of academic
Speaker 12: type kid. But I saw someone just like take control
Speaker 12: of the stage, be like I have a story to
Speaker 12: tell and everyone in this room is going to listen,
Speaker 12: And that just opened the door.
Speaker 14: It kind of took feminism and you know, even though
Speaker 14: they're definitely you know, very fair critiques of right girl,
Speaker 14: like just like other early iterations of feminism, it lacked intersectionality,
Speaker 14: and you know, it was it was largely white women,
Speaker 14: although there was tons of women of color there as well,
Speaker 14: but it definitely took feminism out of an academic context
Speaker 14: and gave it a very like punk, very colloquial vernacular.
Speaker 14: It was like here was you know, like a world
Speaker 14: of punk had just come out of like a hardcore phase,
Speaker 14: especially on the West Coast, which was super violent. So
Speaker 14: all of a sudden, it was like, what if we
Speaker 14: took this movement, these ideas that are largely like in
Speaker 14: you know, college textbooks, and just put it over three
Speaker 14: courts and screamed it?
Speaker 9: And that was very liberating.
Speaker 14: I think to think that if you had a message,
Speaker 14: it didn't necessarily need to be couched in a book,
Speaker 14: you know, that it could be couched in a scream
Speaker 14: or a yelp. And I think that just freed up
Speaker 14: a lot of people to express themselves. I mean the
Speaker 14: same way so much music just becomes like a source
Speaker 14: of liberation for people, where it's like I have something
Speaker 14: to say, and now I can say it over this
Speaker 14: song instead of you know, writing out this exactly.
Speaker 2: So what's the point where you two meet each other
Speaker 2: and sort of talk in terms of starting a group
Speaker 2: in and starting the beginning of Slater Kenney.
Speaker 9: That was yeah, I was ninety four.
Speaker 14: I was already living in Olympia to go to college
Speaker 14: as as well. Koran was I think you were in
Speaker 14: your senior year, and we were both in other bands.
Speaker 14: Koran was in a much more like prototypical or archetypal
Speaker 14: right girl band called Heavens to Betsy, and I was
Speaker 14: in a band called Excuse seventeen. You know that was
Speaker 14: that like day, those days, we were in that group.
Speaker 14: To correct the Kathleen, no, she was in neither she
Speaker 14: was in but other bands.
Speaker 1: I didn't know if.
Speaker 14: Everyone was in so many bands, okay, yeah, And so
Speaker 14: we just saw this kindred spirit in each other, like
Speaker 14: you know, Koran was the only her band was two people.
Speaker 9: Koran on guitar and a drummer.
Speaker 14: And then I was in a band with a similar
Speaker 14: setup to Slater Kenney what Slater Keny would be two
Speaker 14: guitars and drums, and we just we thought, I know,
Speaker 14: I heard Korn sing and I was like, I would
Speaker 14: love to be writing songs with this person. And she
Speaker 14: heard me play guitar and had the same feeling, and
Speaker 14: so we started playing kind of as a side project,
Speaker 14: and then pretty quickly that became what we wanted to do.
Speaker 14: It was just a very innate chemistry.
Speaker 10: Why was there always no bass players, I'm just just
Speaker 10: because he didn't want them.
Speaker 8: It was.
Speaker 12: It was definitely like a thing in the northwest of like,
Speaker 12: you know, how can we be different and not not like,
Speaker 12: you know, sort of the archetype rock band.
Speaker 14: Yeah, and neither of us played I think it just
Speaker 14: was played bass and we just wanted to be this
Speaker 14: like kind of tight unit. I think there's sometimes when
Speaker 14: you're when something is perceived as a lack, it actually
Speaker 14: can be a strength through like how can we find
Speaker 14: a way into these songs without the traditional instrumentation, you know,
Speaker 14: it kind of forces you to write differently. We detuned
Speaker 14: to see sharp, so Korn was singing in this really
Speaker 14: high register and you know, trying to get low end
Speaker 14: sound out of for a guitar. And yeah, I think
Speaker 14: we used it to our advantage. Although now in the
Speaker 14: past couple of years. You know, obviously we like bass.
Speaker 14: Early on though people always ask us like, do you
Speaker 14: guys not like bass? I'm like, no, ninety nine point
Speaker 14: nine percent of all music we listened to has bass.
Speaker 1: Okay, how long have you been playing guitar, Carrie?
Speaker 14: I started when I was fifteen, so it has been
Speaker 14: what is that thirty years?
Speaker 1: Ok?
Speaker 13: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Corian, how long have you been playing guitar?
Speaker 13: It is it's like thirty years because I started when
Speaker 13: I was like eighteen, so.
Speaker 2: Okay, well resisting the temptation of making a spinal tap joke.
Speaker 2: And I know that Janet joined the band three albums later,
Speaker 2: but was it always the plan to sort of have
Speaker 2: various musicians because I noticed that what determines what your
Speaker 2: sound is probably also depends on the musicians that are
Speaker 2: playing with you as well. So first drummer Laura McFarlane,
Speaker 2: how do musicians come in the group and how do
Speaker 2: they leave? Like is it just a one and done
Speaker 2: thing or you guys are just taking this a little
Speaker 2: more serious than the other.
Speaker 14: Or no, I mean definitely. Just to say about Janet,
Speaker 14: and she was an integral part of the band. I
Speaker 14: mean I wrote about it in my book when she joined,
Speaker 14: you know, we.
Speaker 1: Were like, yeah, that's when you jelled.
Speaker 9: Yeah, we were like this is this is great?
Speaker 14: I would I'm I am sure as people assess us,
Speaker 14: you know, ten fifteen years from now or you know,
Speaker 14: they're like, that will be the classic period of the band,
Speaker 14: So you know they were never throwaway.
Speaker 1: Being the rock and Hall of Fame, I get it.
Speaker 14: Yeah, she's a great drummer, so that Korn can talk
Speaker 14: about Laura because yeah, she had brought her own avant
Speaker 14: guard style for sure.
Speaker 8: Yeah.
Speaker 12: I mean I think a lot of it is like
Speaker 12: a little bit happenstance on our part, Like you know,
Speaker 12: we went we did go to Australia thinking like, hey,
Speaker 12: let's play music, you know, and there was there was
Speaker 12: like this international underground music community for real, And we
Speaker 12: wrote her a letter, We wrote like the record label
Speaker 12: a letter, and she wrote back like yeah.
Speaker 13: Let's play music.
Speaker 12: And that's just how it happened, and you know, and
Speaker 12: then eventually it was like, well she did come over
Speaker 12: and we played music here, and then she was like
Speaker 12: I kind of need.
Speaker 13: To go back to Australia. We're like, yeah, oh.
Speaker 2: Okay, now that you're in the game of being on
Speaker 2: an indie label, can you just walk us through the
Speaker 2: process of how do you manage to survive and be
Speaker 2: creative at the same time, Like for those first few albums,
Speaker 2: did you still have to have day jobs or was
Speaker 2: it like, Okay, you know, we can sort of survive
Speaker 2: off of our club gigs and what units that we're selling.
Speaker 12: I mean, I think there's there was definitely some back
Speaker 12: and forth, you know, like there were still temp jobs.
Speaker 13: I think even after dig Me Out.
Speaker 9: I think that we kind of put this.
Speaker 12: Like idea about being creative and being control of the
Speaker 12: creative part of things as something that was really important
Speaker 12: to us. So we were always willing to like do
Speaker 12: whatever other jobs needed to be done, I think, just
Speaker 12: to like make money or whatever.
Speaker 8: I mean, we weren't.
Speaker 12: We weren't not making money from touring, and we were
Speaker 12: always wanting to figure that out and make it better.
Speaker 12: We were always like ambitious about that. It just it
Speaker 12: took us a while to get there.
Speaker 2: But at what point are you absolutely full time? We're
Speaker 2: ban I can pay my bills, I can put cheese
Speaker 2: or my whopper and not break the bank like.
Speaker 14: Probably dig me Out, I would say, So that's ninety seven.
Speaker 9: I mean, let's also be clear. I was living in Olympia.
Speaker 14: I think my rent was three ninety five a month,
Speaker 14: so that doesn't take that much. You know, you can
Speaker 14: you can play a couple of shows even as a
Speaker 14: tiny band and make you know. So we were living
Speaker 14: in small towns and like you know, sharehouses and stuff.
Speaker 14: But dig me Out, I mean, one thing at the
Speaker 14: time on indie labels was thesefit profit shares, which you know,
Speaker 14: you just it was a split and people actually bought records.
Speaker 14: So even though these these records weren't going gold or platinum,
Speaker 14: you know, when dig Me out sells you know, seventy
Speaker 14: five thousand copies or one hundred thousand copies and you have,
Speaker 14: you know, getting fifty percent of profit share, like at
Speaker 14: the time when you're in your early twenties, that's that's
Speaker 14: definitely enough to live off of, even if you're splitting
Speaker 14: it three ways.
Speaker 2: So by the time that you guys are out, I
Speaker 2: also know that every major label was looking up and
Speaker 2: down the aisles for the next big thing or whatever
Speaker 2: I mean. So at no point, like you know, I
Speaker 2: know you guys started off on Chainsaw and then the
Speaker 2: lovely title Kill All rock Stars. First of all, with
Speaker 2: with those labels, is that are there actual are these
Speaker 2: actual labels or just like okay, well what are we
Speaker 2: going to call the label this time? Or like is
Speaker 2: that your label and you guys have a distribution system?
Speaker 2: Or is Kill All walk Stars like an actual label
Speaker 2: like sub Pop is, and you know.
Speaker 12: Yeah, no, Kill rock Stars is definitely an actual label.
Speaker 12: And and that point I think was pretty critical for
Speaker 12: us because after the first record came out on Chainsaw,
Speaker 12: which was another a label run by fellow musicians, but
Speaker 12: they were like still touring that it was Jody and
Speaker 12: Donna from Team Drash, so that was, you know, problematic.
Speaker 12: We did have a time when we were courted by
Speaker 12: major labels before dig Me Out, and we considered it.
Speaker 12: You know, we considered, we argued about it, We thought
Speaker 12: about it like crazy.
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna ask you a question, okay, because I
Speaker 2: knew this was a parallel story with hip hop and
Speaker 2: with with this movement, how at what point are you
Speaker 2: able to really relax and really not live in fear
Speaker 2: of the idea of quote unquote selling out? You know,
Speaker 2: that shadow following you, like the perception of how we're
Speaker 2: because the thing is is that knowing what I know
Speaker 2: now and again because I worked backwards, I'm like, yo,
Speaker 2: like you know, and you can even tell them that,
Speaker 2: like with the videos that you're doing now and all
Speaker 2: that stuff, like the humor element and all those things
Speaker 2: that you're really showing your personalities. Whereas once I went
Speaker 2: back to the beginning and realized like, oh okay, it
Speaker 2: started off here and then you guys slowly blossomed into
Speaker 2: this thing. I can imagine that the perception of who
Speaker 2: you guys were as a group or trying to present
Speaker 2: also probably played, you know, decisions made by the band.
Speaker 2: And I always wanted to know, like how the perception
Speaker 2: of being seen as sellouts or being too successful? Should
Speaker 2: we do this commercial or should we sign to this
Speaker 2: this label, this major label, like will we be the same?
Speaker 2: Like how important is that perception playing in the band
Speaker 2: at that period in you're at least for the first
Speaker 2: three or four records, it was huge.
Speaker 14: I mean, I mean you were around during that time too.
Speaker 14: I mean that it just was such a different beast.
Speaker 14: You know, this this idea that somehow, you know, a
Speaker 14: major label was going to you know, rob you of
Speaker 14: your artistic credibility, that by aligning yourself with anything that
Speaker 14: was corporated or commercial, you know, signified you know, something
Speaker 14: that was anti art you know.
Speaker 9: And there were a lot of arguments.
Speaker 14: Treaties, know, books, zines, you know, and very lively polemic
Speaker 14: and a lot of real anger, I think from people
Speaker 14: that never really took into consideration how anyone grew up
Speaker 14: in terms of you know, if they had money and
Speaker 14: that you know, like it just never it was not
Speaker 14: a very nuanced conversation, but it was very real because
Speaker 14: you cared about your friends and to sort of admit,
Speaker 14: you know, I want something more than I can get.
Speaker 14: This route was really tricky, so we just we really
Speaker 14: didn't consider it. And I was probably the most hard
Speaker 14: line at the time. I was like the youngest, I
Speaker 14: was the baby in the band, and I think Corn
Speaker 14: was probably you probably were the most interested, am I right?
Speaker 13: No, Steel Magnolia is the termine years.
Speaker 12: I was always my eyes were always on the business
Speaker 12: route more than anyone else.
Speaker 9: Yeah, she's good about that. But you know, there were
Speaker 9: also these horror stories.
Speaker 14: You know, you would for every band that had a
Speaker 14: decent relationship with their A and R person, there was
Speaker 14: someone that ad signed to a major and been dropped,
Speaker 14: you know, like a band like Spoon or like or
Speaker 14: even coming from the Northwest, you see Nirvana, you see
Speaker 14: this guy that was tort supposedly, you know, tortured by
Speaker 14: the fact that you know, he no longer felt connected
Speaker 14: to who he was and his fans. So there were
Speaker 14: all these cautionary tales.
Speaker 2: In twenty twenty two, we did a two party with
Speaker 2: Monica Lynch as the president of Tommy Boy Records, Monica
Speaker 2: is responsible for releasing some of my favorite hip hop
Speaker 2: by day La Skul, Queen, Antifa and others. To listen
Speaker 2: to Monica speak, you can hear her passion and dedications
Speaker 2: which remains today.
Speaker 1: And this clip she speaks about being a white woman
Speaker 1: in a position of power and influence in a male
Speaker 1: dominated space.
Speaker 2: What's cool about Monica is she also was a steadfast
Speaker 2: supporter of afrocentric hip hop, as well as other forms
Speaker 2: of music and sometimes marginalized communities. At this place, are
Speaker 2: you shocked that, even though you know Sylvia Robinson was
Speaker 2: running sugar Able Records or whatnot, were women in executive
Speaker 2: positions really not a thing? And I'm taking it out
Speaker 2: of hip hop just general at labels like I know
Speaker 2: about Sylvia Ron at least her, you know, coming up
Speaker 2: at at at Atlantic and starting east West and whatnot.
Speaker 1: And maybe I mean Cassargramils was more.
Speaker 15: At Casablanca before then.
Speaker 2: Well okay, well I knew about Neil Bogart, but who
Speaker 2: was running who was at Casablanca?
Speaker 15: Well, I believe Sylvia had started.
Speaker 1: I did not know. Oh wow, all right, we give
Speaker 1: fact check it.
Speaker 16: This is a great, great subject matter, And I'm really
Speaker 16: happy you brought this up, because you know, there's a
Speaker 16: lot of women from that early eighties period who didn't
Speaker 16: necessarily get at their shine or necessarily get titles.
Speaker 15: I was, I think I was made president in eighty five.
Speaker 15: I still have the press release. And why do I
Speaker 15: have it because I had to write it.
Speaker 1: The writing Wikipedia entry.
Speaker 15: Yeah, like, yeah, your president, Now, could you go write
Speaker 15: this up?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 15: Okay, fine, so the but yeah, before in that.
Speaker 16: Early eighties period, I would say that the people that
Speaker 16: really come to my mind is like women who were
Speaker 16: doing a lot in the early hip hop labels would
Speaker 16: be Ann Carly at Jive Records, you know who. I
Speaker 16: actually knew Anne when she was working in the New
Speaker 16: York office of EG Records.
Speaker 15: I used to harass her for rocky music tour tickets
Speaker 15: and that.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 16: There was Jeanine Leclair who was at Next Plateau Records
Speaker 16: that worked with Eddie o'lachlin.
Speaker 8: There was D. D.
Speaker 16: Joseph who worked with at Prism Records, which became you know,
Speaker 16: which began Chill. Of course, there was Sylvia and there
Speaker 16: were others. And I'm really sorry because I should have
Speaker 16: prepared a list for this because it is important and
Speaker 16: there's a lot of people who you know, it was
Speaker 16: a bit later in the eighties when there were more
Speaker 16: women who were getting into the business, but there were
Speaker 16: a lot of women who were in the business then
Speaker 16: and they just didn't necessarily get as much recognition. They
Speaker 16: might have started as a receptionist and became press or promo.
Speaker 15: So there's there's this whole.
Speaker 16: Wave of women that were part of the even like
Speaker 16: late seventies and early eighties, whose whose names just don't
Speaker 16: tend to come up as much.
Speaker 15: So much in hip hop.
Speaker 16: Has been told and told again through books and documentaries
Speaker 16: and everything, but there's still a lot of terrain that
Speaker 16: hasn't been touched really, So.
Speaker 2: What's the difficulty level of you like really as far
Speaker 2: as like pounding the desk and demanding that respect, like
Speaker 2: do you have to be tough as nails?
Speaker 1: Who ran book? And uh winter? Right? And when you
Speaker 1: have to come do you have to run it in
Speaker 1: a winter style?
Speaker 15: And you know, no, no, well I don't yeah, no,
Speaker 15: I know what you're saying. I know what you're saying.
Speaker 16: You know. I get asked a lot over the years,
Speaker 16: people said, well, what was it like being a woman
Speaker 16: in the hip hop world, or what was it like
Speaker 16: being a white woman in the hip hop world? And
Speaker 16: I'm like, my response is usually like, you know what,
Speaker 16: there were so many opportunities for women in the fledgling
Speaker 16: hip hop industry.
Speaker 15: Again, it was so small back then. If I had
Speaker 15: gone to say, oh, you.
Speaker 16: Know, Columbia Records or Mercury or PolyGram or whatever Warner Brothers,
Speaker 16: you know, and said, hey, you know, I'm looking for
Speaker 16: a job, I would have been lucky to get you know,
Speaker 16: be the coffee run or for some.
Speaker 15: Guy doing mid Atlantic radio promotion. Okay, so in hip
Speaker 15: hop because it.
Speaker 16: Was just a small little industry and no one was
Speaker 16: really checking. You know, like a lot of women were
Speaker 16: able to sort of get ahead in this business because
Speaker 16: there wasn't like a precedent.
Speaker 15: It wasn't an old boys network, you.
Speaker 16: Know, so it was still being it was still being
Speaker 16: the story was being written, and you know, there was
Speaker 16: a lot of opportunities. Although I will say when I
Speaker 16: went to the first Jack the Rapper Convention, uh, a
Speaker 16: lot of people thought I was hired help for another reason. So,
Speaker 16: but you know the Rapper Convention, that's another documentary somebody
Speaker 16: should too.
Speaker 1: Oh boy, tales from the Rap Convention.
Speaker 2: So okay, when when okay, so eighty six, when Club
Speaker 2: Neuveau starts hitting you know, lean on me and jealousy
Speaker 2: and all that. So it was highly it was on
Speaker 2: a capable like by that point, you guys are just
Speaker 2: you know, a force. Was there ever a temptation to
Speaker 2: say leave Tommy Boy and maybe and I don't want
Speaker 2: to discredit hip hop's you know, force or whatnot, but
Speaker 2: in the mind state of eighty seven, did you ever
Speaker 2: have the temptation or did someone from RCA or Warner
Speaker 2: Brothers or quote a legit major.
Speaker 1: Label try to poach you away and say, come work
Speaker 1: for us.
Speaker 16: Yeah, there was a label A and M actually and
Speaker 16: A M was a real class operation, you know it was.
Speaker 15: I mean, there was like, uh and they even bought
Speaker 15: me a plane ticket and put me in a hotel.
Speaker 15: It was like, oh my god, you know, this is
Speaker 15: pretty great. But I it didn't didn't happen. I really
Speaker 15: sort of sense that I was better.
Speaker 16: Where it was, and it turned out to be true,
Speaker 16: you know, because it was towards you know, it was
Speaker 16: made president. I guess eighty five eighty six, I can't
Speaker 16: remember exactly, but you know, it was towards the end,
Speaker 16: you know, towards the late eighties where I really oversaw
Speaker 16: A and R and the creative direction for the label.
Speaker 15: I was already doing quite a bit already in both
Speaker 15: of those areas.
Speaker 16: And also, you know, in the early days, whether it
Speaker 16: was collecting money from distributors, or putting in pressers with
Speaker 16: the pressing plant, or getting the label copy typed up,
Speaker 16: or sitting with Bambada while he wrote out of special things,
Speaker 16: or creating a press list and writing press releases, talking to.
Speaker 15: You name it. It was like you got to do
Speaker 15: a lot of different things. But it was, you know,
Speaker 15: in the late eighties where I sort of really I
Speaker 15: think that was a really golden erape for Tommy Boy
Speaker 15: in the late eighties and the early nineties.
Speaker 2: In nineteen eighty eight, you know, for me, at least
Speaker 2: in my life, one of the greatest pairaradigm shifts that
Speaker 2: really affected I mean, eighty eight was such a banner year.
Speaker 2: But you sign a group that literally changes the course
Speaker 2: of my life. And we've had various people involved with
Speaker 2: Daylas Soul projects, so we you know, you don't have
Speaker 2: to go through the every day, but what I do
Speaker 2: want to know is who was responsible for the genius
Speaker 2: marketing of day Las Soul because from the press photos
Speaker 2: to the fonts to the stickers. You know, for only
Speaker 2: time on life I ever got sent to the principal's
Speaker 2: office was because I put day Lost Soul stickers all
Speaker 2: over my high school. Like, so, who was responsible? Like
Speaker 2: what was the brainchild operation of we can make these
Speaker 2: guys bigger than hip hop?
Speaker 1: And I read that hip hop for hippies? Wasn't that
Speaker 1: your ship? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, I was.
Speaker 15: Very involved in all of that, but it was also.
Speaker 16: There's a lot of people at Tommy Boy that I
Speaker 16: would credit for being a huge part of this campaign.
Speaker 16: I think that it was a very critical decision to
Speaker 16: have the Gray organization do the all the you know,
Speaker 16: all of the daisy or the imagery for the for
Speaker 16: the album cover. That was so that was I would
Speaker 16: say such a radical move at that point because they
Speaker 16: basically sort of threw down a gauntlet, uh to what
Speaker 16: the prevailing visual aesthetic was of hip hop. And I
Speaker 16: think it was the type of thing that a lot
Speaker 16: of people were like, what is this but you know,
Speaker 16: but but but the thing is before the album, before
Speaker 16: the album, and you saw all those visuals. You know,
Speaker 16: Plug Tune In was a radical record and and and
Speaker 16: I still have I still have the demo tape and
Speaker 16: I still have the write up that I did after
Speaker 16: my meeting with Daddy O. And I want to make
Speaker 16: sure to credit Daddyo because it was Daddy O from
Speaker 16: Stetsasnic who called me and said, Hey, I've got these
Speaker 16: groups I'm shopping.
Speaker 15: Can we set up a meeting. I'm like yeah, da
Speaker 15: da da, And he sat on the phone. There were
Speaker 15: three groups.
Speaker 16: Two of them were like Sore, these more mainstream like
Speaker 16: Rene and angela type of groups or something, and he mentioned, uh,
Speaker 16: Dela Saul.
Speaker 15: He said, oh, and there's this group that Paul's working
Speaker 15: with called De La Soult.
Speaker 16: And I do remember thinking that's a really intriguing name.
Speaker 16: You know what is that it didn't sound like a
Speaker 16: hip hop group. And so I met with him, and
Speaker 16: that's in that demo tape of plug Tuning and.
Speaker 15: Freedom, Freedom of Speak I think was the freedom.
Speaker 16: Yeah, it was the two tracks on the on the
Speaker 16: one cassette, and it was like you immediately knew that
Speaker 16: it was either gonna be big or nothing. And that's
Speaker 16: where I think Tommy Boys legacy largely lies with signings
Speaker 16: that were sort of in that category you're gonna love
Speaker 16: it or you're not gonna hate it, but it wasn't
Speaker 16: in the middle, and Dala Soul I think personifies that.
Speaker 16: And you know, the the demo of plug Tuning sounds
Speaker 16: pretty much. I'm pretty sure I don't think that it
Speaker 16: was even even mixed, you know. I think it was
Speaker 16: an eight track that Paul did and I don't think
Speaker 16: it even went beyond that.
Speaker 15: By the time it was mastered. I think it was
Speaker 15: still like this eight trick demo sounding thing.
Speaker 16: And we had this We did this ad campaign where
Speaker 16: we got all these different people to say, you.
Speaker 1: Know, you know how it is, you know, like when
Speaker 1: you know Latifa's mom, she was part of it.
Speaker 15: Latifa's mom, the lake Rita Owens we did.
Speaker 16: We did a campaign that I came in for Dala Soul,
Speaker 16: I came in for Patty LaBelle, I came out with
Speaker 16: Dala Saul. We had this with like some goofy, you know,
Speaker 16: sort of straight looking white guy like you know, I
Speaker 16: came in for.
Speaker 15: I forget it wasn't steely Dan.
Speaker 1: We hung that up in Sam Goodies. I worked at
Speaker 1: Sam goodies at the time.
Speaker 16: Oh man, well then you know, so this is that
Speaker 16: imaging campaign I think was fantastic. We had a great
Speaker 16: full page ad and billboard. I said DLA gold when
Speaker 16: it went gold. But you know, I think a lot
Speaker 16: of it sprung from the group itself, because you know,
Speaker 16: I still have and I shared this with pass actually
Speaker 16: just last week.
Speaker 15: He sat down in the office and with this he has.
Speaker 16: A very distinctive style of cursive and he was writing
Speaker 16: down the history of Dala Soul on this notebook paper set,
Speaker 16: describing who each group member was. And he was writing
Speaker 16: it in day La speak. And that was another thing too,
Speaker 16: because like, nobody knew what the fuck they were talking about.
Speaker 15: They had their own language, like what are they tell?
Speaker 8: What the what do you mean?
Speaker 15: Plug tune?
Speaker 6: And what's that you know?
Speaker 15: And what is true? Guy the dove?
Speaker 8: You know?
Speaker 15: What is all this stuff?
Speaker 16: But they but they had a different look, They had
Speaker 16: a different sensibility. So there was a lot there to
Speaker 16: already work with and to sort of get inspired to
Speaker 16: do interesting and creative marketing and promotion. You really can't
Speaker 16: do something unless the something that the project and the
Speaker 16: recordings and the artists that you're working with are interesting in.
Speaker 15: And of themselves.
Speaker 16: You can blow it up and magnify it. But if
Speaker 16: they're not, if it's not inherently interesting and great, you
Speaker 16: can't really do anything.
Speaker 15: So so they really they were like, wow, this group
Speaker 15: pretty interesting. There a lot of people played role.
Speaker 16: I don't know if you know Rod Houston because he's
Speaker 16: also from from Philadelphia.
Speaker 15: He's now one of the biggest voice.
Speaker 1: Side He's a voice aided guy.
Speaker 6: He's huge.
Speaker 15: He's huge.
Speaker 16: And Rod I still have the copy that he wrote
Speaker 16: up because we did this contest to name the sample and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, did you did you enter?
Speaker 6: I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't know the LIBERACEI or any Yeah I didn't
Speaker 1: know that.
Speaker 16: Yeah we got I still have a lot of the
Speaker 16: entries from the contest that I kept. A lot of
Speaker 16: people thought it was Bobby Bloom And the only person
Speaker 16: who got the who the only person who got it
Speaker 16: right was Joel Weber, as I mentioned to him earlier
Speaker 16: with the Partners in the New Music Seminar. And he's
Speaker 16: the guy who put out He was an A and
Speaker 16: R guy at Fourth and Broadway in Island. He put
Speaker 16: out the Dominatrix Sleeps Tonight and he was the only
Speaker 16: one who identified the invitations right, It's written on the
Speaker 16: wall is the sample right record. So they So there
Speaker 16: was a lot of really great things that sort of
Speaker 16: sprung from the fact that the group themselves were so
Speaker 16: different and so interesting. And I think that that whole
Speaker 16: Daisy age imagery, you know, was certainly a blessing and
Speaker 16: a curse for the group, because then they didn't really
Speaker 16: like being named the hippies of hip.
Speaker 15: Hop, and you know, pushed back against it, you know.
Speaker 16: But that was that album Three Feet High in Rising,
Speaker 16: you know, And that was actually the first project I
Speaker 16: assigned to Dante. I loved that, Dante, make sure you
Speaker 16: get this, get the clearances for so and so and
Speaker 16: so and so. But it was the first project that
Speaker 16: he worked on, which was fantastic. He did an amazing job.
Speaker 15: And Paul, of course, you know, yeah, thank you for this.
Speaker 2: Listen back for Women's History Month. Ket's new episodes a
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Speaker 1: I'm here Quest Love Thompson. Are you saying clear? Sugar?
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