1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: The case being discussed in the next couple of episodes 2 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: of Sworn was an emotional case. It was a horrific case. 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 1: It was a highly publicized and emotional case. But the 4 00:00:12,640 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: purpose of this podcast is not to relitigate guilt or innocence, 5 00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: and nothing that I say should be interpreted as an 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: expression of my opinion about the guilt or innocence of anybody. 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: Neither I nor this podcast is intended to relitigate the 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: issues at trial. The jury has spoken. This is about 9 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: what the case looks like from the inside looking out. 10 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: The case was extensively litigated by very good lawyers on 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: both sides. A jury reached a verdict, and it's not 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: our place to relitigate those issues. But we do want 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: to bring you inside the case for an insider's look 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: at the case of the State of Georgia versus Justin 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: Ross Harris. Place your left hand on the bay of 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: Bible and raise your right hand and repeat after me. 17 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: I do solemnly swear the jury trying it. Attendant not 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:18,559 Speaker 1: scared this weekend and around the country. It makes no sense. 19 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: If it doesn't fit, you must have quit. Judge, you 20 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: are the last line of reason in this case, very 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: one of us took out all the shuffles, and we're 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: sworn to uphold the Constitution. From Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta, 23 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 1: this is sworn. I'm your host, Philip Holloway. I'm thinking 24 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: worst case scenario, it's a really bad accident gone wrong. 25 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: But then as I sat there and I listened to 26 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: the evidence, I was like, Oh, my goodness, have you 27 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: ever won of what it's like to be a lawyer 28 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: who has to represent someone who is accused of something horrific, 29 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: who is seen as a monster and a reprehensible human being. 30 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: What would it be like if you were the lawyer 31 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,200 Speaker 1: and you believe in your heart and your soul that 32 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: that supposed monster is innocent. On the Atlantic community tragically 33 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: lost a beautiful soul with the horrifying death of twenty 34 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: two month old Cooper Harris. Little. Cooper's death was traumatic news, 35 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:35,919 Speaker 1: distressing to everyone who heard it as it made its 36 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: way around the entire nation and in fact, the world. 37 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: This case had widespread media attention from the very beginning. 38 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 1: Everyone has strong feelings about Cooper's death, and everyone seemed 39 00:02:48,560 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 1: to have their own opinions on the case. The Baby 40 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: on the ground stand where in your con Okay, okay, ma'am, 41 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: We're not to sing like a no where I think 42 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: babee anybody around them? You're in, daddy? Can you see 43 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: the baby from when you are? From where you are 44 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: on your baby appear to be? Can you you're forced 45 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:37,119 Speaker 1: me about your phole and can you see him? Bring 46 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: me hi? I'm married A Stedman, a producer on sword. 47 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: On the afternoon of June eighteen, two fourteen, cob County 48 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,200 Speaker 1: Police received one call from a woman witnessing a baby 49 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: who appeared to be having a seizure being pulled from 50 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: a car in the parking lot of a shopping center. 51 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: Due to the screams coming from the father, twenty two 52 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: month old Cooper Harris was quickly surrounded by onlookers. A 53 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: few people tried to help. CPR was attempted. M Cooper 54 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: Harris was pronounced dead at the scene. Cooper Harris was 55 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,599 Speaker 1: the son of Justin Ross Harris, known as Ross and 56 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: Leanna Harris. They lived together and married Atta, Georgia, a 57 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: suburb north of Atlanta. Ross Harris was a thirty three 58 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: year old web developer for home Depot and the lead 59 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 1: guitar player at his church. Leanna Harris was a thirty 60 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: year old dietitian. They met in Alabama, and at the 61 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,840 Speaker 1: time of the incident, the two had been married for 62 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: roughly eight years. By all accounts, Ross and Leanna were 63 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: kind people, active churchgoers, and a happy family. Around nine 64 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: am on the morning of June eighteen, Ross Harris and 65 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: his son, Cooper went to Chick fil A on Cumberland 66 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: Parkway in Cobb County. After breakfast, he placed his son 67 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 1: back into the rear facing car seat and his henday 68 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 1: two son and headed off to drop Cooper at daycare. 69 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:58,559 Speaker 1: Around four pm, Ross left his work and his wife, Leanna, 70 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 1: headed to pick up her son from day care. Glanna's surprise, 71 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: Cooper wasn't at the Little Apron Academy where he was 72 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: supposed to be. After driving for about seven minutes, Ross 73 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: pulled over at the Acres Mill Square Mall, screaming Cooper 74 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: had been in the car all day. The Acres Mill 75 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: Square Mall in Cobb County, Georgia is a busy place 76 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: with many different shops and restaurants. When Ross Harris pulled 77 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: his twenty two month old son out from the back 78 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: of the car seat, there were dozens of witnesses and 79 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: working lot. Early Wednesday morning, exactly one week ago, justin Ross, 80 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: Harris was seen at this Atlanta area Chick fil A. 81 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,799 Speaker 1: Harris was seen strapping his twenty two month old son, Cooper, 82 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: into his car seat. He drove less than a mile 83 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: away to this home depot store support center where he 84 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: works as a web designer. Normally, Harris takes Cooper to 85 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: a daycare center on site, but not on this day. Instead, 86 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: Harris headed inside the office and left his toddler in 87 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: his rear facing car seat in the back in the 88 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 1: blazing Georgia's His twenty two month old son was dead, 89 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,119 Speaker 1: probably long before he tried to resuscitate him. It was tough. 90 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: It's it's tough to see anyone pass, but especially a 91 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: small child and made it especially tough. I don't know. 92 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: He kept saying, what have I done? What have I done? 93 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: And but that's all I could entertained that he was said, 94 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: kind of emotions go through your mind seeing something like that. 95 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: You know, I just hope it's not the obvious. Hopefully 96 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: he didn't do anything to to harm the child. Um, 97 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: but I guess we'll know momentarily. It was an extremely 98 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: tragic accident resulting in the death of a young child. 99 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: No one could conceive the pain and the guilt apparent 100 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: must feel after such a devastating lapse in memory. But 101 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: at ten pm that same night, Ross Harris was arrested 102 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: for murder. After searching his office, police arrested the grieving 103 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: father and charged him with felony murder and child endangerment. 104 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: He's pleaded not guilty. Father's arrest is causing outrage, some 105 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: agreeing with police and shocked at what happened, many saying 106 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: the father has suffered enough. The justice system can't punish 107 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: Ross worse than he is punishing himself, and it will 108 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: only cause more pain for a grieving family. Harris Is 109 00:07:12,400 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: supporters online have raised more than eighteen dollars for his defense. 110 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: I remember that day very clearly. I was in my 111 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: car on my way back from my law office and Marietta, Georgia, 112 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: and there was a lot of traffic way, more than usual. 113 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: I heard the traffic reporter, who's a friend of mine, 114 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: say on the radio that it was due to police 115 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: activity in the area and that they were investigating the 116 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: death of a child left strapped in the back of 117 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: a hot car. On this very hot summer day. That 118 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: precious child was Cooper Harris. The heartache that I felt 119 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: is indescribable, and it was a media and I turned 120 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: around to look at the empty car seat in the 121 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: back of my own car, where my own son sometimes sits. 122 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: I thought, what a tragic accident this had to be. 123 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: But later that night it was eventually reported that the 124 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: father of this child, Justin Ross Harris, was accused of murder. 125 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: I was stunned. How could this man be charged with murder? 126 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: Based on the information provided to me at that time, 127 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: I was not convinced that Ross Harris was a killer 128 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: of any kind. I even chimed in on a couple 129 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: of news stations about it. Justin Ross Harris thirty three 130 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: years old, now indicted on eight counts, including malice murder 131 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: for the death of his twenty two month old son, 132 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: Cooper journey and now was Philip Halloway, a criminal defense 133 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: attorney and former Atlanta prosecutor. Defense attorney Philip Halloway joins us. 134 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: Now I want to bring in Phil Holloway. Phil give 135 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 1: us a sense of what's going on right now. Malice 136 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: murderer is something that is an intentional death that it 137 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: indicates premeditation. It indicates deliberation, something that was planned in 138 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: advanced and particularly cruel. An abandoned and malignant heart is 139 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: what Georgia Code calls mal The arrest of Justin Ross 140 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: Harris and the death of Cooper Harris sparked lots of 141 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: national interests and awareness about the issue of leaving children 142 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: in hot cars. As time went on, people basically split 143 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: into two camps, those who were absolutely convinced that he 144 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,320 Speaker 1: was guilty of murder and those who believed that it 145 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: had to be a tragic accident. Nonetheless, the story was 146 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: out and people were talking. Many people had doubts about 147 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 1: Ross Harris's guilt. To gather some additional perspective on this case, 148 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 1: I talked to a friend and colleague of mine named 149 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: Vinny Polton. Vinny is an anchor at eleven Live News 150 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, and he's a former correspondent for Court 151 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: TV and at HLN. Vinny and I literally sat together 152 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: during the probable cause hearing for this case with a 153 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: CNN news crew right outside the courthouse. Leading up to 154 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: the probable cause hearing, I was not convinced that this 155 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: was really a murder case. I'm thinking worst case scenario, 156 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: it's a really bad accident gone wrong. There's no way 157 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: I could have even considered that a father would intentionally 158 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: leave his son there. But then as I sat there 159 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:22,880 Speaker 1: and I listened to the evidence that was going to 160 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 1: be part of this case and the evidence against Ross Harris, 161 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: what they uncovered in his searches and everything else, I 162 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: was like, oh, my goodness. First, you look at that 163 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: day that morning, and you watch all the videotapes because 164 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 1: you can track all of his motions and things that 165 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: he did through surveillance. And there's two parts of it 166 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: that are to me very revealing. The one part that 167 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 1: everyone was talking about where he's dropped off by his 168 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: friends and he goes to put the lightbulb into his suv. 169 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 1: He opens the door of his suv in the middle 170 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: of the day at lunchtime and is able to put 171 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: those light bulbs in, but never looks inside the car. 172 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 1: To me, that was so unusual, awkward, counterintuitive that you 173 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: have light bulbs in your hand, you're placing him in 174 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,720 Speaker 1: your car, and you open the door, don't look inside, 175 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: and toss the light bulbs in and close the door 176 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: and then turn around and walk away. But the most 177 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: revealing part of the surveillance video comes after that moment 178 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: as he's walking back to his office from his car 179 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 1: where his son is dying or is already dead, and 180 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: he passes someone. And as he passes that person, that 181 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: person is walking towards the vehicle where Cooper is. As 182 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: the person who passes Ross Harris starts to pass Ross 183 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: harris suv, you can see Ross Harris stop and peek 184 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: over his shoulder to take a look at that guy. 185 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: Why why is he looking? Is he is turning and 186 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: looking over his shoulder to see if that person sees 187 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: inside the window you can see the little Cooper's inside 188 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: his SUV. To me, very revealing at that probable cause 189 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 1: hearing the testimony was that Mr Harris went to his 190 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,079 Speaker 1: car multiple times throughout the day, and the idea at 191 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: the time that he could not have possibly been aware 192 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: of what was happening in the back of his car 193 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:43,440 Speaker 1: seemed particularly questionable. The part of the evidence to me, 194 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: that is so real for a juror to understand and 195 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 1: so simple for a juror to understand. We've talked always 196 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: about Ross Harris's SUV. SUV SUV. It's not a Chevy suburban. 197 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: This is not some super stretch suv. This is a 198 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,560 Speaker 1: compact suv. I wouldn't even call it an suv because 199 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: that think that's so misleading. This car is tiny. And 200 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: when you take a look inside and you see the 201 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: photos that were presented by the prosecution of the interior 202 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: of Ross Harris's vehicle, you can see how close that 203 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: car seat is to the driver's seat. It is virtually 204 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: inconceivable that you could sit in the driver's seat of 205 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: that vehicle and not notice or understand that there's a 206 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: child seat right next to you. Because remember it's it's 207 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: rear facing, so it is right there, within inches of 208 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: the driver's seat. And if you're leaning over to grab 209 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: your bag, if you're turning forty degrees to your right, 210 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: there's no way you don't notice that child's seat. It's 211 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 1: right there. So how on earth could he drive for 212 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: more than ten seconds and not remember that there's a 213 00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: child seat there. He didn't have a rear facing care 214 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: He's got to take a peek over his shoulder, and 215 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: as soon as you turn the slightest bit over your 216 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: right shoulder inside, there's no way on earth you don't 217 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: see the car seat. One of the big issues in 218 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: the case was Mr Harris's physical size and the small 219 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: size of the suv. How could he have not noticed 220 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: the child in the back of the car when he 221 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: left work that day? In other words, was this just 222 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: a freak accident or did Ross Harris intentionally leave his 223 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: son to bake to death in the back of a 224 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: hot car. One thing that was constant from the beginning 225 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,480 Speaker 1: of the case all the way through the conclusion of 226 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: the trial is that Justin Ross Harris maintained his innocence. 227 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: On the day he was arrested. He expressed those exact 228 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: feelings to his wife while he was in the interrogation 229 00:14:54,600 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: room at the Cobb Police headquarters. Right you got my 230 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: card and right do my poll out? I try to something. 231 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: I try to just seek good news comes post. I 232 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: don't know what a ring well most out her baby 233 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: hat over her? It never Oh well, pet, can we 234 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: talk to him? It's the co he has. They're coming. 235 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: You're gonna charge me. My curls and child curld him. 236 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: That's where they put it up there as count the 237 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: cheese to a bolt. That's all I purpose I feel. 238 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: I don't want as a general practice, the cameras inside 239 00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: police interview rooms or interrogation rooms are always running. This 240 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: interrogation video, along with several others, later became a key 241 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: piece of evidence in the trial, and one thing that 242 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: in particular really stood out to the investigators. Leanna, mr 243 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: Harris's wife, asked him in the interview room, among other things, 244 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: did you say too much? Two investigators? That was an 245 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: odd us and the demeanor of Mr Harris and his 246 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: wife didn't add up in the eyes of the investigators. 247 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: The tears and the emotion that was displayed during that 248 00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: interaction between Leanna and Ross Harris was not genuine, and 249 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: that was a source of much debate both before the 250 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: trial and during the trial. The bus shocking part of 251 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 1: this case for me was finding out who justin Ross 252 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 1: Harris really was. More to come after the break, It's 253 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: still really hard to get your head wrapped around why 254 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: would a person intentionally leave their son to die in 255 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: one of the worst ways possible? What could possibly be 256 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: the motive. When it first happened, people sort of forget 257 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,680 Speaker 1: the initial reaction. You know, you had an aggressive prosecution 258 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: team who's charging this father, apparently not giving him time 259 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 1: to grieve. It's the way in the media and publicly 260 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 1: initially was that this father was almost being victimized by 261 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: the system, by the prosecution, who had jumped to a 262 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: conclusion and was being overly aggressive and and was was 263 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 1: trying to turn this into something that it wasn't. And 264 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: then that got turned around very quickly because of the 265 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 1: shocking revelation of who Ross Harris was and the life 266 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: that he was leading and and what his true focus was. 267 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: This was not a guy who was living anything close 268 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: to a traditional life. It was absolutely a shocking moment 269 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: because you learned so much more about who he was 270 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: and this this double life that he had, and there 271 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: was something that that I would consider a motive, and 272 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:51,200 Speaker 1: you know, you think about a father and as something 273 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: why would a father kill his son? And to me, 274 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: that's a question that had to be addressed before you 275 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: could even think about this being in an intentional murder. 276 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 1: Behind the scenes, police were uncovering information that would begin 277 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: to paint Justin Ross Harris in a completely different light. 278 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: The Cop County father accused of intentionally leaving his twenty 279 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: two month old son, Cooper, had a hot car to die. 280 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,840 Speaker 1: Just two weeks before Cooper died, Harris started an online 281 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: sexual relationship with a woman, and it continued during the 282 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: day that the toddler died yet again, another woman met 283 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: randomly first threw an app from a phone called Whisper. 284 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: During the police investigation, law enforcement discovered that Justin Ross 285 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:48,159 Speaker 1: Harris was not only engaging in explicit sexual conversations and 286 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: sexting with multiple women, some of the miners, he was 287 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: also having extramarital affairs, including sex with prostitutes. There's a 288 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: difference between and being a bad father and being a 289 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: bad husband. Being an adulterer, a philanderer, a cheater, and 290 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: even sexting with underage girls doesn't necessarily mean that you're 291 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: a murderer, does it. It was apparent to everybody, at 292 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 1: least those in the legal community following this case, that 293 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: this information, if it made its way into an indictment, 294 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: would most certainly cause a jury to hate Justin Ross 295 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: Harris at a minimum. Yeah, there are husbands who cheat 296 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:34,439 Speaker 1: on their wives, there are husbands who have mistresses. But 297 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 1: this is a man who became so obsessed with sex 298 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,240 Speaker 1: and his pursuit of women. It was like it was 299 00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: like seven, this was the most important thing in his life, 300 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: and for me, that's the shocking part that a father 301 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: of a young child like that could be overtaken in 302 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: his mind with with something other than the well being 303 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 1: of his own child. And and the most important thing 304 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: in Ross Harris's life on the day his child died 305 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: was again pursuing sex with random women that he's meeting. 306 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: And it was that obsession to me, that was the 307 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: most shocking part of this. That was the big revelation. 308 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: Once you find out what was going on in his 309 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 1: life and what he was doing and what he was 310 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: up to, and this secret double life that he had, 311 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: you could understand that in his mind there somehow you 312 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 1: could form a reason why I would want to get 313 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: out of that life and take the life of my 314 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: own son. It reminded me of Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson 315 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: was a husband and assumed to be father who killed 316 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: his nine month pregnant wife out in California. He's sitting 317 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: on death row right now. I saw that the similarities 318 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 1: between the two cases and that Scott Peterson wanted to 319 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,880 Speaker 1: live a life if that he could not live as 320 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: a husband and father, And for Ross Harris, same thing. 321 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 1: There was a life that he wanted to lead that 322 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: was so different than being a responsible husband, so different 323 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: than being a responsible father. That the way to get there, 324 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: it's it's sick, I know, but the way to get 325 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: there would be to take the life of his own child. 326 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:35,400 Speaker 1: This guy, this father, intentionally left his son inside that car. 327 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: During the investigation, a few unsavory details came out about 328 00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:01,119 Speaker 1: Ross Harris and the events of that day. Firstly, Harris 329 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: claimed to forget his son was in the car during 330 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,440 Speaker 1: the drive from breakfast to his workplace. However, that drive 331 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 1: was only point five miles, maybe five minutes, conceivably less. Secondly, 332 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: Harris had gone to his car that day once in 333 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: between breakfast and leaving work. He had lunch with some 334 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: coworkers that day, and after lunch he had gone to 335 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: his car to put some light bulbs inside, but even 336 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: then he said he didn't see Cooper. Thirdly, and maybe 337 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: most disturbingly, Harris had been sexting with multiple women that day, 338 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 1: including one underage girl. Chuck Boring, the lead prosecutor in 339 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: the case of the State of Georgia versus Justin Ross Harris, 340 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: agreed to talk with me about his part in the trial. 341 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: As a prosecutor, I think you have a higher duty 342 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: and a higher burden on your shoulders. We have a 343 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: our oath and our duty is not just too to 344 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 1: try to seek convictions, but to do justice, whatever that 345 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,439 Speaker 1: may be. I think we have an ethical obligation to 346 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: both the state bar and the general bar, but also 347 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 1: our duties as a prosecutor to make sure that justice 348 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,960 Speaker 1: is done. Whereas with a you know, a criminal defense 349 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: attorney or a civil litigant, you know, their duty is 350 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: to their client to represent them to the utmost within 351 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: the confines of the state bar rules and the law. 352 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,719 Speaker 1: But their duty is to their client. Our duty is too, 353 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: I guess, more of a general cause of trying to 354 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: do what is right. Is there one particular case that is, say, 355 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: the most high profile that you've ever tried. I mean 356 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 1: that's probably as of recent times. It was the Justin 357 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: Ross Harris case that we tried last fall, and I'm 358 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: sure that was probably it garnered the most media attention, 359 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,640 Speaker 1: no doubt. Would you consider this to be an unusual case, Yeah, 360 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: I mean I think this is obviously it was a 361 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: case that we haven't seen this exact circumstance. But in 362 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: a lot of the uh, the cases that involved deaths 363 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: of children, none of them are the exact same, but 364 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: this was definitely something that was out of the norm 365 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: I would say generally doing child crimes. One of the 366 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: particular hurdles that we have that we have to get 367 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: over is general Society's not like you and I who 368 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: see this stuff on a daily basis. But you know, 369 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: general society doesn't understand the things that we see, and 370 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 1: I don't think they want to believe the evil that 371 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,960 Speaker 1: exists out there and the terrible things that go on 372 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: in our community, you know, every day. And so that's 373 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: one of the hurdles we have to look at and 374 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: have to take into consideration. Uh, not so much in 375 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: charging a lot of times, but in how we're going 376 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: to approach the argument. How how are we going to 377 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: get through to the jury that you know, evil does 378 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: exist and this person was capable of it. In most 379 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: cases you see in the media, Uh, there are times 380 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,639 Speaker 1: where there are things that may be accurate, inaccurate, half accurate, 381 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: and you know, it's tough sometimes to sit back and 382 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: and just let it happen, but that's what you have 383 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: to do. You know. As a prosecutor, we we couldn't 384 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: come up and say, you know what we see this 385 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 1: sentence here in the the newspaper on TV, and we 386 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 1: want to say that we need to correct that. We 387 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 1: we can't do that at the time. We have to 388 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: let it come out in the courtroom. Well, I think 389 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,200 Speaker 1: you know that one thing is you don't want to 390 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: attain a jury. That's one of the big problems when 391 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: you have a case with media attention and publicity. One 392 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: of the biggest problems is when, as far as you know, 393 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,680 Speaker 1: the appellate decisions have held. Is if a prosecutor or 394 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,640 Speaker 1: defense attorney comes out and puts out intentionally or maybe 395 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,399 Speaker 1: not intentionally, but a statement outside of the courtroom that 396 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: turns out not to be correct. If a court finds 397 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,360 Speaker 1: that that was done and it was done to influence 398 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,720 Speaker 1: the jury and properly, you know, that could affect the 399 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: prosecution of the case. So you have you have to 400 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: be very careful and we have ethical obligations as well 401 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: about what we should or shouldn't say, uh in the 402 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: media outside of a courtroom before the trial has had 403 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: to a jury. Let's talk about the attempt that you 404 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 1: mentioned at picking a jury in Cobb County. What extraordinary 405 00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: measures were undertaken to attempt to pick a jury in 406 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: Cobb Kill. Well, I think the first thing that was 407 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: done that was, you know, everyone agreed on trying to 408 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,679 Speaker 1: that would help accomplish it was bringing in an extraordinary 409 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 1: amount of jurors, hundreds of jurors, as opposed to you know, 410 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: for one case, you may have a general jury pool 411 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: and the judge calls forty two jurors up. You know, 412 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,160 Speaker 1: we had hundreds of jurors just called in for this case. 413 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 1: Another thing we had done we thought that may expedite 414 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 1: some of the situations and fairt out people that there 415 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: was just absolutely no way that could be on the 416 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: jury was to do jury questionnaires regarding pre trial publicity 417 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: and a myriad of other subjects related to the case. 418 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: So that's another tool that we tried to utilize, should 419 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 1: try to actually see if we could get a fair 420 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: and impartial jury in this county. Extensive efforts were made 421 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: to find an impartial jury in Cobb County, Georgia. Defendants 422 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,120 Speaker 1: have a constitutional right to be tried in the county 423 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: where the crime is alleged to have occurred. But in 424 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:57,719 Speaker 1: the end, after much effort and much deliberation by the judge, 425 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: it was decided that the venue of the trial needed 426 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: to be changed, particularly because of pervasive negative media. What 427 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: went through your head when you realize that this show 428 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: was about to go on the road. I tried to 429 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: make sure that my main thought process was what is 430 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: the best thing legally and the best thing for this case? 431 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 1: You know, what is the best thing to do justice 432 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: for the victim of this crime? You know, so for 433 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 1: good or ill, whatever happened extraneously, not saying that wasn't 434 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:29,119 Speaker 1: in the back of our minds, I'm sure, but you 435 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: have to be cognizant and make sure that your decision 436 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: is based upon what is the most legally appropriate thing 437 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: to do and what is the best thing for the case. 438 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,600 Speaker 1: After we got done injury venue had been changed, that's 439 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: when the kind of reality of it washes over you, 440 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: and then you start thinking about how are we going 441 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: to live? Where are we going to go? You know, 442 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: and and as as when you when a case, when 443 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: you change venue like that and you move hundreds of 444 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 1: miles away. Just as the months go towards trial, there 445 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: are things you haven't thought of before, like, oh, great, 446 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: how am I gonna get this? How am I get that? 447 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: I've got to find a dry cleaner? Wherever this is 448 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: gonna go big and small, it starts to wash over 449 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: you once that actually the triggers pulled. How was it 450 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: decided upon Glenn County, Georgia and Brunswick. Well, the way 451 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: that the suggestions are made to the judge in a 452 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: case like this, the parties can defense and stake can 453 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: make suggestions about different counties that they may want to 454 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: try the case in, and you know, it's up to 455 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: the judge ultimately to make a determination. She can pick 456 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: one of the counties suggested by the parties, or she 457 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: can independently decide on a county. Um, what you have 458 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: to do is look at the demographics of the county 459 00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 1: involved that you're trying to move venue to. The goal 460 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: is to find something that's demographically similar to the county 461 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: that you're already you know, the the original county the 462 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,480 Speaker 1: venue is in. And so Glen County actually, over the 463 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: years has been a county where in cases where venue 464 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 1: has been changed, both from Glenn County to another county 465 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: and from Cobb to Glenn. It's it's gone back and 466 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,280 Speaker 1: forth a little bit because the demographics of both counties 467 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: they kind of mirror each other, and so it was 468 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,240 Speaker 1: a natural fit for One other thing that I think 469 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: had to be taken into consideration was that when it's 470 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 1: got the venue is being changed. Because of the aspect 471 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 1: of media attention, it probably would be most wise to 472 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 1: switch venue to somewhere that may have a different media 473 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,239 Speaker 1: hub and most of the news and things of that 474 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 1: nature down in Brunswick St. Simon's. They're actually in the 475 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,560 Speaker 1: Jacksonville media market, not Atlanta, So uh, you have to 476 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: move it far enough away to at least numb some 477 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: of the pre trial publicity. I want to speak briefly 478 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: about the the car that Cooper died in. It was 479 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: transported to Brunswick for the trial. Correct, How was it transported? 480 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 1: As far as the vehicle getting it, getting it down there, 481 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: I'll say, you know it, it was costly to do it, 482 00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: to make sure it got down there in a manner 483 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: that it preserved it. There were nothing, you know, because 484 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: you wanted to make sure nothing was done incorrectly. So 485 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: it was it was a task to get the car 486 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: transported down there. And how's it? How many times have 487 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: you try a case where there was no one in 488 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,480 Speaker 1: the courtroom who represented the victim in the case. A 489 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 1: lot of the child homicides that I prosecutor over the years, 490 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: not prosecuted a lot. I'd say, in the majority of them, 491 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: there's no one there because usually you have, I mean, honestly, 492 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: a lot of times one of the parents or one 493 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: of the caregivers is the offender, and many of the 494 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: times the non offending caregiver is supportive of the offender, 495 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 1: and so a lot of times there's nobody there for 496 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,239 Speaker 1: the victim. It's sad. I mean, I still have, you know, 497 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: in life photos of several of the victims of you know, 498 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: child homicides that prosecutor over the years, going back to 499 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,880 Speaker 1: two thousand and five, you know, as a reminder, you 500 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: know they they were, you know, they were victims. And 501 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: even though they don't have family members to go put 502 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: flowers in their graves or you know, they don't have 503 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, memorials, and you know they don't have people 504 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: calling up to our office to touch base with us, 505 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 1: because they were with us through the trial. You want 506 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: to keep some memory of, you know, that that living 507 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 1: being whose life was taken from them criminally, And so 508 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: in one regard it it can be sad and another 509 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: is something that you know makes me proud to be 510 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: able to represent that type of victim. You've got a 511 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: jury in the box, you present your case, you cross 512 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: examined witnesses, you examine other witnesses, the defense puts up 513 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: its case, Motions are argued during the middle of a trial, 514 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,800 Speaker 1: and now you're at the end. What does it feel 515 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,600 Speaker 1: like to stand in front of that jury in that moment? 516 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:33,800 Speaker 1: I was I was pretty worn down by the time 517 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 1: it got there, but I will say in the eight 518 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: second closed it wasn't so much exhaustion, but it was 519 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: finally like I finally get the this last opportunity and 520 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: complete opportunity to seek justice for the victim in the case. 521 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: And so I think that's what it felt like. This 522 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,760 Speaker 1: is you know, this moment is finally here. Everything is 523 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: out there before the jury, so here. It is. One 524 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: thing that I've learned in my role as a legal 525 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 1: analyst in the media, both on radio and television, is 526 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 1: that you can't go by emotions. You've got to put 527 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: those aside. You've got to be neutral. You can't be 528 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: a cheerleader for one side or the other. You have 529 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: to stick to the facts that are being reported. But 530 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: particularly you have to be careful not to draw assumptions 531 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: from those facts, because in a criminal trial, what is 532 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: or is not a fact? It is always a question 533 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: for a jury. I reached out to Veronic Waters, a 534 00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: friend of mine and a radio journalist who covers crime 535 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: and who followed this case very closely from the beginning 536 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: all the way to the end. People were feeling so 537 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: sorry for this family and for this young dad who 538 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 1: seems to have lost his world. But then, very early on, 539 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: talking to one or two of the witnesses out there 540 00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: in that parking lot, we started to hear what or 541 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: two rumblings about maybe this dad wasn't quite the grieving 542 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: father that we first thought. He seemed a little stiff, 543 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 1: he seemed a little not quite all there. Something about 544 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: him seemed a little off. And then, very quickly, as 545 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: we heard from police that there were some suspicions enough 546 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: to hold him behind bars, the sort of focus of 547 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: the story quickly turned from oh, my gosh, how could 548 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: this happen? To oh my gosh, did somebody make this 549 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: happen on purpose? As a journalist, how do you go 550 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:46,840 Speaker 1: about separating your personal feelings about that question? Uh, could 551 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: somebody have made this happen on purpose? From being objective 552 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: in the way you report about it. Well, you never 553 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: lose sight that somebody lost his life. It's impossible really 554 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: to separate your emotions from noing that somebody died a 555 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: terrible death. I mean, as an adult, have you we've 556 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,759 Speaker 1: all gotten into a hot car in the middle of 557 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: the summertime and maybe you drop the keys before you 558 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: can put them in the addition really quickly and turn 559 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:16,280 Speaker 1: on the car. But we've all had those few seconds 560 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: of being in a car that was baking in the 561 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,440 Speaker 1: sun for a couple of hours before we got in, 562 00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: So you kind of know what that really uncomfortable prickle 563 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: is like when you are in your own hot car, 564 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: but you know you have the power to turn on 565 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: the a C let down the window, and you can 566 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: kind of chill a little bit, literally chill out a 567 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,960 Speaker 1: little bit. But you know that Cooper never had that option, 568 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: and so you don't not know that Cooper died. But 569 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: in a different way, but sort of the same as 570 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: how you are as an attorney. You have to look 571 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:51,320 Speaker 1: at all sides of everything. Basically just report things straight 572 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: down the middle. And just because the police say I've 573 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: never seen something so horrific in my life, and we 574 00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: believe that this was done on purpose, doesn't mean that 575 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: you have to believe it too. And I think the 576 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: way that you keep that in mind means that you 577 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: do your job as a reporter and and not sort 578 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,719 Speaker 1: of try to sway the audience. I mean, my job 579 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: is to go straight down the middle and um, and 580 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 1: that's what I did. You sort of have to pay 581 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: attention to not getting caught up in the spin and 582 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: looking at what is actually presented at trial. But I 583 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: think for the jury in this case, emotion did really 584 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 1: lead the way because there was a lot of at 585 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: the at the end of the day, a lot of 586 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: people just couldn't imagine that somebody could forget their kid. 587 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 1: And in either case, and in any case, I think 588 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people thought, even if you were distracted, 589 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,800 Speaker 1: no matter what you were doing, you still have to 590 00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: pay the price for leaving your kid in the car. Well, 591 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: I think what a lot of people really couldn't separate 592 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: in their mind was the allegation of sexting from the 593 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,719 Speaker 1: question of whether or not he actually purposely left his 594 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: child in the car die. People were horrified by that. 595 00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: How could you be sexty six different ladies on the 596 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: day that your son is dying in a hot car 597 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: in June, it was just unfathomable. I think a lot 598 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: of people were saying, I don't want to believe he 599 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 1: did it, but if he did it, he should fry. 600 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 1: I think at that point it was still hard for people, 601 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people to believe that he had actually 602 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: done it, but people were furious with him at the 603 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: at the thought of it. Even though we live in 604 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:28,960 Speaker 1: a country where you're innocent until proven guilty, I think 605 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: a lot of people tend to think that if you 606 00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: are ever put in handcuffs, you probably did it. And 607 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 1: of course, as you know as a defense attorney, this 608 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,040 Speaker 1: is why the way that your client is presented in 609 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: front of a jury is so important, and that goes 610 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: for even pre trial hearings, motions hearings where they might 611 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,279 Speaker 1: be coming to court. We don't want them seen in 612 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: an orange jumpsuit, say the defense attorneys, because we don't 613 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 1: want to prejudice the jury pool against our client. So 614 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: people are already horrified and shocked at the nature of 615 00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: this alleged crime. Do we really want to make it 616 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: work by, you know, parading this guy out in jail blues? 617 00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,239 Speaker 1: Or whatever, and in handcuffs, shackled at the ankles and 618 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: wrists to sort of hammer home the image of a 619 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,880 Speaker 1: guy who's, you know, guilty before he's even had a 620 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 1: chance to go trial. I think I may have said 621 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,280 Speaker 1: to you earlier that we had people who were saying, 622 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: I get it, I've been distracted, I've forgotten stuff, and 623 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,279 Speaker 1: and in quiet moments, there are some people who will 624 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 1: actually tell you I have forgotten my kid in the car. 625 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: Didn't happen for eight hours on a summer day, But 626 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: I've walked away from the car for X number of 627 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: seconds or minutes and forgotten that I had a kid 628 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: in the car. Veronica was actually in the courtroom when 629 00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:42,839 Speaker 1: the prosecution displayed the horrific and graphic images of the 630 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: deceased body of little Cooper Harris. I asked her what 631 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: was in her mind when she saw those photos. It 632 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: was heartbreaking. I mean I really felt something in my chest. 633 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: I really hurt when we heard about what Cooper probably 634 00:39:13,239 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: experienced that day was bad. But just looking at the 635 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 1: pictures of his frozen, little precious body, this beautiful little boy, 636 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:30,279 Speaker 1: m hm. You just I think, you know, you wish 637 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: you could roll back time. You can't imagine that someone 638 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: could have done that on purpose. Who would wish this 639 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:47,759 Speaker 1: kind of death on somebody. I do think that the 640 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: verdict against Ross Harris was a condemnation of how he 641 00:39:53,000 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: spent his married life. Listening to the k is laid 642 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: out by the state and the defense, I was shocked. 643 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: I just think for a lot of people it is 644 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: hard to separate someone who lies and cheats that much, 645 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,040 Speaker 1: or from someone who could be a killer, and I 646 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: certainly think that that was the argument made by the prosecutor. Conversely, 647 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: Mados Kilgore said, this is a guy who has moral failings. 648 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,879 Speaker 1: He's a terrible husband, but he loved his kid more 649 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: than anything. And I think one of the things that 650 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,280 Speaker 1: was very surprising to me was that the prosecution rested 651 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: its case without ever having called a single witness who 652 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: could say that Ross Harris ever even spoke across word 653 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: to Cooper. And that was a shock to me because 654 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 1: there was not one person whoever said, yeah, he seemed 655 00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 1: like he loved Cooper. But I remember that time he 656 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 1: that that boy's arm in the grocery store, or I 657 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: remember the time he spanked him, and I just didn't 658 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: think that was right. We never heard one single person 659 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: say that Ross Harris had even frowned at his little 660 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: boy one day. By all accounts, Ross Harris loved Cooper, 661 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 1: even though the prosecution found what they believed was convincing 662 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,760 Speaker 1: evidence that Justin Ross Harris was cheating on his wife 663 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,759 Speaker 1: with multiple women, and that he was more concerned with 664 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 1: his extramarital sex life than the safety of his own child. 665 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,880 Speaker 1: On the day little Cooper died. Not everyone was convinced 666 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,960 Speaker 1: yet that this was a murder. Both sides prepared for 667 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: what would be a very drawn out trial several hundred 668 00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: miles outside of Atlanta, all the way down to Brunswick, Georgia. 669 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,360 Speaker 1: The question remained, was this murder or was this just 670 00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:59,120 Speaker 1: a horrible accident. Justin Ross Harris was represented by a 671 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: defense team led by a friend of mine named Maddox Kilgore. 672 00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,919 Speaker 1: Maddox's job was to convince the jury that Justin Ross 673 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: Harris loved his son Cooper, that he was a good father, 674 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,399 Speaker 1: and as a good father he could never have done 675 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:19,440 Speaker 1: something like intentionally murdering his child in this horrible way. 676 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: His job was to raise reasonable doubt wherever it may 677 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:26,320 Speaker 1: have existed, and ultimately it was up to Matos to 678 00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 1: prove to the jury that this was nothing more than 679 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:32,959 Speaker 1: a tragic accident. From watching Maddox in court and knowing 680 00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:36,360 Speaker 1: him like I do, I know that he really, truly, 681 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: honestly believes that this was a tragic accident. I sat 682 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:44,479 Speaker 1: down with Maddox Kilgore to talk about the case next 683 00:42:44,520 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 1: time on Sworn. Sworn is produced by Tenderfoot TV in Atlanta. 684 00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: Story production and sound design by Payne Lindsay Executive producers 685 00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 1: Donald Albright and Payne Lindsay, and if you have it yet, 686 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 1: please check out our sister podcast, Up and Vantage that 687 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: follows the investigation into the disappearance of Georgia High school 688 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,560 Speaker 1: teacher and beauty queen Tera Brinstein. Up and Vantaged is 689 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,800 Speaker 1: available now on Apple Podcasts. The Sworn is mixed and 690 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: mastered by Resonate Recordings. If you're in the market for 691 00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,200 Speaker 1: podcast production, go to Resonate Recordings dot com to get 692 00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 1: your first episode produced for free. If you haven't already, 693 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: please head over to iTunes now to subscribe, rate, and 694 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,280 Speaker 1: review Sworn, and make sure you check us out online 695 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: at Sworn podcast dot com and follow us on social 696 00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 1: media at Sworn podcast on Twitter, and Instagram, and you 697 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,160 Speaker 1: can follow me your host, Philip Holloway at phil holloway 698 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: E s Q on Twitter. 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