Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're still
Speaker 1: cheesing over the Minnesota frost rocking eighties ski suits to
Speaker 1: their Denver Takeover Tour game. It's Tuesday, January fourteenth, and
Speaker 1: on today's show, we'll be chatting with Hall of Fame
Speaker 1: coach Muffett McGraw about Notre Dame's success this season, Hannah Hidalgo,
Speaker 1: the state of coaching in women's sports, and more. Plus
Speaker 1: a brit goes to Canada College hockey gets cooking and
Speaker 1: some folks have punched their tickets straight to the bad place.
Speaker 1: It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.
Speaker 1: Here's what you need to know today to soccer. Casey
Speaker 1: Stoney has officially been confirmed as the next coach of
Speaker 1: the Canadian national team, just seven months after her questionable
Speaker 1: firing as head coach of the San Diego Wave. If
Speaker 1: you remember, Stony led the Wave to the playoffs in
Speaker 1: the team's inaugural season before winning the NWSL Shield and
Speaker 1: NWSL Challenge Cup in the following two years. The lead
Speaker 1: for Team Canada after former head coach Bev Priestman was
Speaker 1: handed a one year suspension by FIFA and then fired
Speaker 1: by Soccer Canada after an investigation into the program's use
Speaker 1: of drones to spy on other teams. There's also some
Speaker 1: coaching news in pro basketball, with a couple WNBA teams
Speaker 1: rounding out their benches. Newly announced Dallas Wings coach Chris
Speaker 1: Koklanis has hired Camille Smith and Nola Henry to serve
Speaker 1: as assistants. Smith and Henry both served as assistants for
Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Sparks under then head coach Kurt Miller
Speaker 1: during the twenty twenty four season. Henry is also one
Speaker 1: of the head coaches for the inaugural season of Unrivaled,
Speaker 1: where she'll lead the Rose basketball club. The New York
Speaker 1: Liberty also announced the signing of a new assistant coach,
Speaker 1: Sonia Rahman. She most recently served as an assistant coach
Speaker 1: for the mnba's Memphis Grizzlies, spending five seasons with the team.
Speaker 1: To college hockey, the Women's bean Pot gets underway tonight.
Speaker 1: The annual tournament is a big deal in Boston, where
Speaker 1: the four local teams Northeastern, bu BC, and Harvard meet
Speaker 1: up to compete for bragging rights. Last year's championship mark
Speaker 1: the five first time the women played at t D Garden,
Speaker 1: home of the NHL's Bruins, and they'll be back again
Speaker 1: this year for next Tuesday's championship. But first, the semi
Speaker 1: finals get underway tonight at Northeastern's Matthew's Arena. Boston College
Speaker 1: faces off against Harvard, followed by BC against Northeastern. Finally,
Speaker 1: some infuriating and scary news over the weekend, A fifty
Speaker 1: five year old man from Texas was arrested in Indianapolis
Speaker 1: and charged with felony stalking after he allegedly sent threats
Speaker 1: and sexually explicit messages to WNBA star Caitlin Clark. The
Speaker 1: Athletic reviewed the court documents and reported that the man,
Speaker 1: named Michael Lewis, traveled from his home in Texas to
Speaker 1: Indiana in order to be closer to Clark. The Indianapolis
Speaker 1: Star reported that prosecutors have moved to ban the man
Speaker 1: from the two home venues where the Fever play, Hanklefield
Speaker 1: House and Gainbridge Field House. We got to take a
Speaker 1: quick break. When we come back, we get real honest.
Speaker 1: With Muffett McGraw joining us now. She was the head
Speaker 1: women's basketball coach at Notre Dame from nineteen eighty seven
Speaker 1: to twenty twenty, compiling an eight hundred and forty eight
Speaker 1: and two to fifty two record over thirty three seasons.
Speaker 1: She led her team to nine final fours, seven championship
Speaker 1: game appearances, and two National Championship wins. A college player
Speaker 1: at Saint Joseph's University, then briefly a pro player for
Speaker 1: the California Dreams of the Women's Professional Basketball League, she
Speaker 1: coached a few spots before Notre Dame, including Lehigh, where
Speaker 1: she coached now WNBA Commissi Kathy Engelbert, a member of
Speaker 1: the Nasmith Basketball Hall of Fame and the Women's Basketball
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame and the first female coach at Notre
Speaker 1: Dame to have a statue in her honor. She was
Speaker 1: born Ann, but she legally changed her name to Muffett.
Speaker 1: Yes like little Miss Muffett, and she once appeared on
Speaker 1: NPR's weight Wait don't tell me an incorrectly answered a
Speaker 1: question about a nursery rhyme that's actually about consorting with prostitutes.
Speaker 1: It's Muffett McGraw. What's up, coach?
Speaker 2: I remember that. Wait, wait, don't tell me. That was
Speaker 2: so much fun. I'd love that show.
Speaker 1: I was shocked to hear that the Lucy goosey or
Speaker 1: whatever rhyme was actually about hookers.
Speaker 2: I had little to I know.
Speaker 1: Coach, thank you so much for taking time to come
Speaker 1: on the show. You retired from coaching in twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: and we saw you pop up on ESPN recently doing
Speaker 1: some NCAA hoops analysis. Can we expect more of that?
Speaker 1: Tell us what else you've been up to.
Speaker 2: I'm on every Thursday night on the ACC Network. We
Speaker 2: have a women's show. It's the only women's show in
Speaker 2: the country. We feature ACC basketball, but we have an
Speaker 2: hour long show all women, and that's all we talk
Speaker 2: about every single week right up through the tournament. And
Speaker 2: I'm doing a little bit of ESPN also, but mostly
Speaker 2: we cover ACC Network.
Speaker 1: What's the show called, tell us?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's called nothing but Net. But the problem is
Speaker 2: the men's show is called nothing but Net also, so
Speaker 2: when you're taping them, you're going to get a hundred
Speaker 2: of them instead of just the one. So you have
Speaker 2: to find a Thursday night show.
Speaker 1: Okay, Thursday night, nothing but Net. I love that. I
Speaker 1: want to talk some Irish hoops before we zoom out
Speaker 1: and go more big picture. We've seen former players take
Speaker 1: over coaching duties at their alma maters with success before,
Speaker 1: but neil Ivy's transitioned to head coach just felt especially seamless.
Speaker 1: And we know she was your assistant for over a
Speaker 1: decade before taking over. That certainly helps. But what is
Speaker 1: it about her that makes her such an excellent head
Speaker 1: coach and recruiter?
Speaker 2: You know, I think point guards make the best coaches.
Speaker 2: They look at the game differently, they study the game differently,
Speaker 2: you know, they see it from that angle where they're
Speaker 2: seeing the whole floor. They know everything that's going on
Speaker 2: in every position. And as a point guard, she was
Speaker 2: that kind of player, just a really smart player, a
Speaker 2: great leader, and I knew a long time ago that
Speaker 2: she was going to be a terrific coach. So when
Speaker 2: I had a job open, it was pretty much the
Speaker 2: easiest decision ever made to hire neil Ivy. And she
Speaker 2: was young, she didn't know, she didn't have any experience,
Speaker 2: she didn't know a lot, But each day, each year
Speaker 2: really kind of gave her a little bit more and
Speaker 2: a little bit more until eventually she was ready to
Speaker 2: do it all. But the first year she came in,
Speaker 2: I said you have one job. Get Skylar Diggins to
Speaker 2: say yes to Notre Dame. That's the only recruit you have.
Speaker 2: I want you working full time on that. And then
Speaker 2: of course she did that very well and continued to
Speaker 2: be one of our recruiters. But also she was a
Speaker 2: great scout. She understands offense and defense. And then the
Speaker 2: year that I was about to retire, she had an
Speaker 2: opportunity to go to Memphis in the NBA and have
Speaker 2: a year in the NBA. And you know, I said,
Speaker 2: what a great training ground for you. You've only ever
Speaker 2: known me. You know I'm the only person you played
Speaker 2: for me. You coach with me, go learn something different
Speaker 2: from somebody else at the highest level. And I think
Speaker 2: that really helped her as well.
Speaker 1: So speaking of recruiting, actually I want to ask you this.
Speaker 1: Caitlyn Clark talked about how Notre Dame was top of
Speaker 1: the list and then she made the switch to Iowa.
Speaker 1: What do you remember about those conversations and what would
Speaker 1: it have looked like if it had been Caitlyn Clark
Speaker 1: at Notre Dame.
Speaker 2: I may still be coaching if Kaitlyn Clark couldn't come
Speaker 2: to Notre Dame. I remember it well. I loved recruiting
Speaker 2: her terrific, terrific person, loved her game of parents, great family,
Speaker 2: everything was good. She went to a Catholic school. When
Speaker 2: I went to recruiting at Dallan Catholic, they waited on me.
Speaker 2: I mean, they brought me popcorn, they brought me drink,
Speaker 2: you know, they gave me special seating. It was amazing.
Speaker 2: Everybody in the place, I think, wanted her to go
Speaker 2: to Notre Dame. And it was fun recruiting or the
Speaker 2: home visit was great. She committed to us, but I
Speaker 2: had a feeling it was kind of a soft commitment
Speaker 2: when she did, because she couldn't decide, couldn't decide. And
Speaker 2: then finally she said, you know, I want to come,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't it wasn't like I'm coming, you know,
Speaker 2: it was kind of like I made the decision. And
Speaker 2: so after that we waited and waited for her to
Speaker 2: announce it because, as you know, we're not allowed to
Speaker 2: announce anything. The players have to do that themselves. And
Speaker 2: so she made the announcement. A long time after that,
Speaker 2: I kept saying, when is it coming out? And then
Speaker 2: when she made the announcement she was going to Iowa.
Speaker 2: But of course she called me first to tell me
Speaker 2: that she was going to that classy person that she is,
Speaker 2: you know, And I thought, after seeing four years of
Speaker 2: her at Iowa, it was probably a pretty good decision
Speaker 2: because I remember thinking, I'm not sure I'm gonna like
Speaker 2: those shots right over half court when we have all
Speaker 2: these good players around you. So I think she made
Speaker 2: a good decision. We would have obviously been contending for
Speaker 2: national championship if she had come to Notre Dame, but
Speaker 2: total respect for her game.
Speaker 1: Oh, I can hear the Notre Dame fans out there
Speaker 1: both crying and screaming about that missed opportunity. Okay, let's
Speaker 1: talk this Irish team. After a little transitional period, they've
Speaker 1: been back in the top five on a regular basis
Speaker 1: for the last three seasons, currently sitting at number three
Speaker 1: in the country with what feels like a pretty good
Speaker 1: opportunity to make a title run. What do you enjoy
Speaker 1: most about watching this group of players and the brand
Speaker 1: of hoops they're playing.
Speaker 2: The best backcourt in the country at Notre Dame. I'm
Speaker 2: loving Olivia Miles is an incredible passer. She has such
Speaker 2: great vision. She's really fun to watch improved a three
Speaker 2: point percentage by twenty percentage points.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: And then Hannah Hidalgo, who was the national player of
Speaker 2: the year I think, and she also leads the nation
Speaker 2: in steals. She's I think second in the country in scoring,
Speaker 2: first in steals. Those two are so hard to guard.
Speaker 2: You want to put your best defender on one of them,
Speaker 2: and you can't decide which one. And then you've got
Speaker 2: Sonya Citron on the wing. Mattie Westfield is back and healthy.
Speaker 2: I mean, what a terrific, terrific squad. And they got
Speaker 2: Leah tu King from pitt in the transfer portal. She
Speaker 2: is playing great basketball right now. So this team has
Speaker 2: all of the tools to get to the final four.
Speaker 1: Doesnielle ever call you just like, Hey, I have a
Speaker 1: quick question or I was thinking about this. What do
Speaker 1: you make of this? Oh?
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk and I text her pretty frequently just
Speaker 2: after games about great stuff. I don't I never critique
Speaker 2: the team, but yeah, we talk more in the preseason.
Speaker 2: You know, here's what we're putting in. What do you
Speaker 2: think about this or that?
Speaker 1: Oh? Wow, what a nice thing for her to have
Speaker 1: you on on standby for that. You mentioned Hannahidalgo such
Speaker 1: a fun player to watch, absolutely insane swag, so many
Speaker 1: skills in her bag, and it's been interesting to see
Speaker 1: the reaction to her play. She obviously as a player,
Speaker 1: is undoubtedly, like you said, in the running for Player
Speaker 1: of the Year. But I haven't seen a lot of
Speaker 1: covered of some of the online pushback that she got.
Speaker 1: Last summer, she reposted a conversation to her Instagram story.
Speaker 1: It was a conversation between former CNN host and gay
Speaker 1: man Don Lemon and Candice Owens, who's a political commentator,
Speaker 1: and she later deleted it, but she posted this part
Speaker 1: of the video where Lemon asked Owens if she believes
Speaker 1: that he's sinful because he's married to a man, and
Speaker 1: Owens responded, yes, you're sinning, you're in a sinful relationship.
Speaker 1: I actually don't believe marriage can be between two men.
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously people are allowed to have their beliefs,
Speaker 1: but when religious beliefs include sharing some of those bigoted views,
Speaker 1: and especially when they're in this space of women's basketball
Speaker 1: that has plenty of out gay athletes, I wonder what
Speaker 1: responsibility there is for the team or the media, I guess,
Speaker 1: to hold an athlete accountable to expect them to speak
Speaker 1: on that and defend that behavior. What did you make
Speaker 1: of that and how it's been responded to or maybe
Speaker 1: not responded to.
Speaker 2: I thought it was a really poor choice on her part,
Speaker 2: first been leaving that I think it's a poor choice,
Speaker 2: and then saying it on as you said, on a
Speaker 2: stage where women's basketball. There are a number of gay
Speaker 2: players out there, and I thought that it was almost
Speaker 2: insulting to our teammates, to everybody in the game of basketball.
Speaker 2: I was really disappointed that it came out that way.
Speaker 2: I was happy that she deleted it, but the damage
Speaker 2: I think was done before she deleted it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think we've talked about this on our show
Speaker 1: with a couple different athletes, where the natural instinct is
Speaker 1: to call someone out for behavior that you disagree with,
Speaker 1: but ultimately, when you're on a team, you're in a
Speaker 1: locker room, you have to work together with a shared goal.
Speaker 1: There is this feeling of calling in. How do you
Speaker 1: hold someone accountable and also try to let them learn
Speaker 1: or experience life in a way that might change their
Speaker 1: mind about something like that. How do you balance accountability
Speaker 1: in a locker room when you were coaching with all
Speaker 1: these different mindsets and lived experiences coming together.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, Sarah, I think the great thing about
Speaker 2: sports is we're a microcosm of society and we deal
Speaker 2: and live work with different people who you know, different
Speaker 2: They come from different backgrounds, black, white, straight, gay, religious,
Speaker 2: not religious. You know, there's so many things that they
Speaker 2: do to work together, and they come out as a
Speaker 2: team with one goal, one team. And so I think
Speaker 2: it's really hard to have a player in the locker
Speaker 2: room that feels that way about somebody else in the
Speaker 2: locker room who may be gay. So I think it's
Speaker 2: going to take it would take a lot of conversations.
Speaker 2: Accountability for me, was like that was the number one
Speaker 2: thing in having a championship team. Honesty, trust and accountability.
Speaker 2: It's hard to trust when you have somebody that believes
Speaker 2: that what you believe is wrong. So I think it
Speaker 2: takes a lot of time to kind of get to
Speaker 2: know people, learn, you know, this is what I think,
Speaker 2: this is who I am, you know, and really have
Speaker 2: open conversations about it, because I don't think it's a
Speaker 2: good idea to just see it and then not talk
Speaker 2: about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it does feel like ultimately it's as festers
Speaker 1: when there aren't more open conversations about it. She's a
Speaker 1: young person and I hope that she does find her
Speaker 1: way to the other side of that kind of thinking.
Speaker 1: But hopefully there is support within that locker room and
Speaker 1: accountability eventually. Right if any of those posts continue, or
Speaker 1: if she continues to make those kind of statements. I
Speaker 1: want to talk about now that you're separated from the
Speaker 1: space a little bit more, not in it every day.
Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty one, you said you thought ESPN
Speaker 1: was biased toward Yukon. Do you still think that's an issue?
Speaker 1: Has it changed at all? And now that there is
Speaker 1: a little bit more parody in terms of the superstar players, coaches, storylines,
Speaker 1: is ESPN doing a better job sharing the wealth?
Speaker 2: Well? I think now the fact that the Big East
Speaker 2: is on Fox, I think that they don't have as
Speaker 2: many games on. But I think the real thing that's changed,
Speaker 2: Sarah was when conferences got their own TV deals, the
Speaker 2: ACC Network, the SEC Network, people were able to watch
Speaker 2: games without hearing about Yukon because the announcers were focusing
Speaker 2: on that conference. So I think that conversations really have
Speaker 2: turned to you know, what's happening in the SEC, what's
Speaker 2: happening in the ACC, what's happened in the Big Ten.
Speaker 2: I mean, everybody has their own networks, so when you
Speaker 2: watch games, you're not constantly hearing about that. And I
Speaker 2: think the fact that we've you know, we've had other
Speaker 2: really good teams South Carolina, LSU, so many other different
Speaker 2: teams are winning now, I think that there is room
Speaker 2: for everyone. I think that Connecticut definitely benefited from what
Speaker 2: they got from ESPN through the years, but lately with
Speaker 2: other teams winning, I don't I think that they still
Speaker 2: believe that everybody wants to watch Yukon play. And then
Speaker 2: when you look at the teams and the games, and
Speaker 2: you saw what happened in the final last year with
Speaker 2: you know, Connecticut wasn't in the final, and we set
Speaker 2: records for people watching and listening. So I think they're
Speaker 2: they're learning, but I think they still that's still their fallback.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's so close, like literally geographically too. So
Speaker 1: I found those conversations simultaneously infuriating and fascinating for all
Speaker 1: those years about like, is Yukon women's basketball bad for women?
Speaker 1: And it was like you both understood that singular focus
Speaker 1: was limiting your ability to learn about the rest of
Speaker 1: the teams and stars. And you also knew that when
Speaker 1: you create this like sometimes person or team to hate
Speaker 1: because they're always winning, it also drives interest in a
Speaker 1: way that spreading the wealth doesn't. So I think we're
Speaker 1: in a much better spot now as women's basketball. But
Speaker 1: I do think they played their role in kind of
Speaker 1: the same way that Caitlyn played a role in this
Speaker 1: massive leap of excitement. Is people sometimes need that one
Speaker 1: thing to focus in on that kind of opens the
Speaker 1: door for them. Do you agree?
Speaker 2: I absolutely agree? And can I get set the standard?
Speaker 2: I mean they raised the bar for everyone, and you know,
Speaker 2: rising tide lifts all boats. Everybody started to say, we
Speaker 2: got to do what they're doing. How are we going
Speaker 2: to do that? What do we have to do recruiting wise,
Speaker 2: what kind of style of play? What is it that
Speaker 2: we need to improve on to get to their level?
Speaker 2: And that was the biggest thing. I think It's all
Speaker 2: about recruiting. They have three Player of the Years right
Speaker 2: now on their high school Player of the Years, and
Speaker 2: you're gonna have a pretty good team when you get
Speaker 2: the number one player. And what happened to give us parody?
Speaker 2: You know, Asia decides you're gonna go to South Carolina
Speaker 2: and Leah Boston went to South Carolina, and different people
Speaker 2: were going different places, and that's really how we got
Speaker 2: the parody going. Somebody like Caitlin Clark stays in Iowa
Speaker 2: and brings them to a Final Four. So I think
Speaker 2: when you have players that are willing to go different places.
Speaker 2: But again, if you're not hearing Connecticut all the time
Speaker 2: every time you're watching the game, maybe you will think, hey,
Speaker 2: we're watching South Carolina right now, and they had a
Speaker 2: pretty good spob.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And also just investment right across the
Speaker 1: space where you see what Yukon has and you think,
Speaker 1: let's bring that to our school by actually investing in
Speaker 1: coaches and resources and everything else, which has been really
Speaker 1: cool to see. Yeah, I want to pick your brain
Speaker 1: about coaching, in particular in women's basketball. Let's take a
Speaker 1: listen to this answer that you gave you. You were
Speaker 1: asked a question about women and coaching at the Final
Speaker 1: Four back in twenty nineteen and talked about women in
Speaker 1: leadership spaces in general, and this went truly viral. Let's
Speaker 1: take a listen. Muffett. I know you made some comments
Speaker 1: about hiring practices and what you do in the future.
Speaker 1: How important. As your career has gone on and we've
Speaker 1: lost past summit, how seriously do you take being that voice?
Speaker 2: Did you know that the Equal Rights Amendment was introduced
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven and it still hasn't passed. We
Speaker 2: need thirty eight states to agree that discrimination on the
Speaker 2: basis of sex is unconstitutional. We've had a record number
Speaker 2: of women running for office and winning, and still we
Speaker 2: have twenty three percent of the House and twenty five
Speaker 2: percent of the Senate. I'm getting tired of the novelty
Speaker 2: of the first American, the first female governor of this state,
Speaker 2: the first female African American mayor of this city. When
Speaker 2: is it going to become the norm instead of the exception.
Speaker 2: How are these young women looking up and seeing someone
Speaker 2: that looks like them preparing them for the future. We
Speaker 2: don't have enough female role models, We don't have enough
Speaker 2: visible women leaders. We don't have enough women in power.
Speaker 2: Girls are socialized to know when they come out, generals
Speaker 2: are already set. Men run the world, Men have the power,
Speaker 2: Men make the decisions. It's always the men that is
Speaker 2: the stronger one. And when these girls are coming out.
Speaker 2: Who are they looking up to to tell them that
Speaker 2: that's not the way it has to be. And where
Speaker 2: better to do that than in sports. All these millions
Speaker 2: of girls that play sports across the country. They could
Speaker 2: come out every day and we're teaching them great things
Speaker 2: about life skills. But wouldn't it be great if we
Speaker 2: could teach them to watch how women lead. This is
Speaker 2: a path for you to take to get to the
Speaker 2: point where in this country we have fifty percent of
Speaker 2: women in power. We have less out right now, less
Speaker 2: than five percent of women are CEOs of fortune five
Speaker 2: hundred companies. So yes, when you look at men's basketball
Speaker 2: and ninety nine percent of the jobs go to men,
Speaker 2: why shouldn't one hundred or ninety nine percent of the
Speaker 2: jobs in women's basketball go to women. Maybe it's because
Speaker 2: we only have ten percent women athletic directors in division. IE.
Speaker 2: People hire people who look like them, and that's the problem.
Speaker 1: Gosh. I'm still very moved by that, and I remember
Speaker 1: being asked about it on around the Horn with you know,
Speaker 1: some of the obvious and expected questions about is it
Speaker 1: similarly discriminatory to not hire men and only hire women?
Speaker 1: But to first, I want to ask do you feel
Speaker 1: better or worse about the state of coaching and equality
Speaker 1: in general today than you did then?
Speaker 2: You know, I think I think there were some improvements initially.
Speaker 2: I think right after that people really did start to think.
Speaker 2: But I think we're still sixty percent men forty percent women,
Speaker 2: and that's a problem. The problem comes from the athletic
Speaker 2: directors who are doing the hiring. People hire people who
Speaker 2: look like them, and that is still true today. That's
Speaker 2: why there's so many men. And I think that women, unfortunately,
Speaker 2: we're not as aggressive go for jobs. I think we
Speaker 2: could do a better job, first of all, of applying
Speaker 2: for the job, of you know, going after the job,
Speaker 2: where men are going to pick up the phone and say,
Speaker 2: I want that job. I'm going to take your team
Speaker 2: to the to the final four. If you hire me,
Speaker 2: you know they're gonna they're gonna be a lot more
Speaker 2: confident in the interview. And I've read a really interesting
Speaker 2: article in the Harvard Business Journal and it's said men
Speaker 2: win the interview because of their confidence, but women really
Speaker 2: have better skills to do the job. They're much better
Speaker 2: team players and collaborators. And the way coaching is going now,
Speaker 2: it's not an autocracy. It's it's not come in and
Speaker 2: this is what we're doing and here's how we're doing it.
Speaker 2: It's really about team and bonding in chemistry and getting
Speaker 2: people to work together, and women are so good at
Speaker 2: that and we we just need to have the opportunity.
Speaker 2: And when men get the job, I think it's up
Speaker 2: to them to hire women. And that's something that Gino
Speaker 2: has always done. He's always had women on his staff.
Speaker 2: You have to be able to mentor them though and
Speaker 2: get them off and become coaches. And I wish that
Speaker 2: in the NBA, they're doing a great job. They're hiring
Speaker 2: a lot of women. Bring them back like Becky Hammond,
Speaker 2: and let's get some really good quality coaches on the
Speaker 2: women's side.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one of the points you're making is
Speaker 1: so solid, which is that our kind of idea of
Speaker 1: what a good coach looks like is still pretty antiquated.
Speaker 1: It's this man who yells a lot and is intimidating.
Speaker 1: For a lot of people, that's still what they imagine
Speaker 1: when they think of a great coach. Four out of
Speaker 1: the six unrivaled head coaches are men. Five of the
Speaker 1: eight head coach hires in this WNBA offseason where men,
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, four out of ten coaches in NCAA
Speaker 1: sports are women. Six out of ten are men across
Speaker 1: Division one, and in the last reporting that I saw
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one to twenty two, women were just sixty
Speaker 1: six percent of head coaches in Division one college women's basketball.
Speaker 1: So how much of this is a lack of imagination
Speaker 1: or an outdated idea of what a good coach looks like?
Speaker 1: And how much do you think is about pipeline or
Speaker 1: other issues.
Speaker 2: I think it is mostly outdated, and gender bias is real.
Speaker 2: I mean you don't have to look very far in
Speaker 2: any business in any way, you know, look at politics.
Speaker 2: We haven't gotten a women president yet, and gender bias
Speaker 2: is real. I firmly believe that women are not getting
Speaker 2: job just because when it comes right down to it,
Speaker 2: they say, oh, I'll hire a woman. I don't mind
Speaker 2: hiring a woman, I'll vote for a woman, But when
Speaker 2: it comes down to it, they don't. And I think
Speaker 2: that's a problem. When you look at really everything, you know,
Speaker 2: you look in movies and TV and stuff we're watching,
Speaker 2: how many producers, how many people behind the scenes. When
Speaker 2: you look at how much they are they getting paid.
Speaker 2: How much are the women getting paid compared to them,
Speaker 2: to the male actors. I think it's across the board.
Speaker 2: You know, we're struggling to have equal pay, We're struggling
Speaker 2: to have equal opportunity. They're taking our rights away. I mean,
Speaker 2: we are going in the wrong direction. We have so
Speaker 2: many things that we need to really find somebody in
Speaker 2: a leadership position that really understands women, and right now
Speaker 2: we don't have that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. And to your point about the
Speaker 1: way men might pitch themselves as opposed to the job
Speaker 1: that actually needs to be done is fascinating. I have
Speaker 1: a friend named Linda lu who wrote a piece about
Speaker 1: co leadership and the co leadership model that she uses
Speaker 1: with her co head of company, and she wrote, the
Speaker 1: most prominent model of leadership we've seen focuses on finding
Speaker 1: ways to have more power over more people and in
Speaker 1: turn to control a press and dictate how others should be.
Speaker 1: This type of leadership is steeped in the white supremacy
Speaker 1: culture of a deep sense of urgency, an immense amount
Speaker 1: of control, Bigger is better thinking, and a simplistic view
Speaker 1: that there's only one right way to be an effective leader.
Speaker 1: And the right way is to lead with certainty even
Speaker 1: when you're uncertain, with power concentrated at the top, and
Speaker 1: with a singular vision for the organization which all other
Speaker 1: team members are then incentivized to achieve. But true leadership
Speaker 1: is not about power and control. It's about a balance
Speaker 1: between vision and journey, rooted and expansiveness, evolution, and always
Speaker 1: in service to uniting, uplifting and caring for the collective.
Speaker 1: Sounds like a team to me, the second one, not
Speaker 1: the first one. And yet it does feel like the
Speaker 1: old ideas around coaches and particularly why men get those jobs,
Speaker 1: is the idea of my way or the highway. I'm
Speaker 1: certain power at the top, everybody following, if you do
Speaker 1: what I say, will win. How do we convince people
Speaker 1: that that ain't it anymore?
Speaker 2: I think it's starting to come when when you read
Speaker 2: any kind of leadership books now, they all talk about
Speaker 2: it's not top down leadership anymore. That's not the way
Speaker 2: you lead because so many of those leaders fail eventually,
Speaker 2: So you have to find the person that's going to
Speaker 2: be a clever And all of the definitions that she
Speaker 2: used to describing that second leadership thing, I kept thinking,
Speaker 2: that's a woman, that's a woman. All these things are
Speaker 2: what our strengths are, and that's what real leadership looks like.
Speaker 2: And I think we have to start younger. I mean,
Speaker 2: when you look at kids going out to play soccer
Speaker 2: when they're five and six years old, who's coaching the team?
Speaker 2: Somebody's dad. Every time they have a chance to see
Speaker 2: what leadership looks like, there's a man at the top.
Speaker 2: You go into middle school, you go to aau, all
Speaker 2: of those coaches are men. So you're teaching these kids
Speaker 2: men and women, Like, why isn't a woman. We have
Speaker 2: so many great soccer players, why don't they coach their
Speaker 2: sons team. Now, let's get more women out there coaching
Speaker 2: boys at the younger ages so that they can look
Speaker 2: up and say, oh so I have a coach that's
Speaker 2: a woman. It's no big deal, you know, and they
Speaker 2: start to accept it at a younger age because we're
Speaker 2: still so stereotypical. You know, you look at the boys
Speaker 2: and girls. You know, you're pink, you're blue, you're going
Speaker 2: down the aisle with the dolls, or you're going down
Speaker 2: for the chemistry set and the trucks. You know, we
Speaker 2: have to do something at a younger age to teach
Speaker 2: these kids that you can be anything you want to be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it feels too like there has to be
Speaker 1: an over correction with intention because to your point about
Speaker 1: women coaches, sometimes what happens is the first barrier is, well,
Speaker 1: I didn't play Division one, so I can't coach them. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: the dad over there never played at all, but he's
Speaker 1: like I know this, yeah right. So after you get
Speaker 1: past that, though, then it's are you able to be
Speaker 1: away from your home or family for this the hours
Speaker 1: or are you the primary caregiver right? Or are you
Speaker 1: able to travel with the team If you have children
Speaker 1: at home? Is their childcare right? So some of the
Speaker 1: steps aren't just equality of opportunity, but what does the
Speaker 1: pipeline and then the path of the work look like
Speaker 1: so that women are capable of doing it? And do
Speaker 1: we have to overcorrect in that way so that we
Speaker 1: create more space.
Speaker 2: Well, I definitely think we need an overcorrection. I think
Speaker 2: that's a good point. I think that's why women don't
Speaker 2: move around as much as men. You know, I'm going
Speaker 2: to take this shob that I'm going to take that
Speaker 2: job because it's more money. You know, they're more loyal,
Speaker 2: they're looking at different things. They're probably a tendency to
Speaker 2: stay more in one space, But I think that's changing too,
Speaker 2: And I think that you have to look at the
Speaker 2: questions we get asked, Well, who's going to take care
Speaker 2: of the kids while you're out recruiting? You know, they
Speaker 2: don't ask men those questions, So we really we just
Speaker 2: need to figure out a way to be that leader
Speaker 2: and show people like we can do it. And there's
Speaker 2: plenty of coaches that are doing it now. There are
Speaker 2: a lot of women out there who have kids and
Speaker 2: people are everybody's been taken care of, you know, it's
Speaker 2: not our job all the time. And really having a
Speaker 2: great spouse, I think that's really a big part of
Speaker 2: the job. If you can have somebody to share that
Speaker 2: load with you and be a teammate at home, I
Speaker 2: think that's where women are going to find more success.
Speaker 1: Yeah, where would you start to change the makeup of
Speaker 1: the coaching ranks? Would you try to talk to more
Speaker 1: of the decision makers and change their mindset? Would you
Speaker 1: try to start at lower levels and create the kind
Speaker 1: of training in both confidence and ability to be willing
Speaker 1: to put themselves out there more for these jobs, Like
Speaker 1: where's the best place that we need to be investing
Speaker 1: time and resources.
Speaker 2: You know, it's so hard to say, Sarah, because you
Speaker 2: want to start at both places. We definitely need a
Speaker 2: good pipeline. We need these women who are assistant coaches
Speaker 2: to believe that they're capable and they're ready to move on.
Speaker 2: And that is the head coach's job really to start
Speaker 2: to prepare them to be that next assistant coach. I
Speaker 2: always thought that was that's part of my job, like
Speaker 2: I want you to be a head coach. I want
Speaker 2: people to move on, and so we need to do
Speaker 2: that more. But I think the athletic directors for sure,
Speaker 2: sometimes I mean we're getting to a spot where now
Speaker 2: there is a little bit more money. Now I'm going
Speaker 2: to be making money from the NCAA. Now suddenly we
Speaker 2: might have some money coming in. So ads are a
Speaker 2: little more worried about who they hire. Well, you know,
Speaker 2: there was a time when they really they really didn't
Speaker 2: take it that seriously. You know, well nobody applied, No
Speaker 2: women applied, as if the football job opened and they
Speaker 2: were waiting to see who was going to apply for
Speaker 2: that job. So I think they they definitely need somebody
Speaker 2: to be helping them and and I think that's I
Speaker 2: think that's happening. I know a few ads that have
Speaker 2: never hired a man to coach their women's team, So
Speaker 2: there's some of them out there. We just need more.
Speaker 1: How do you apply to someone that listened to your
Speaker 1: h I'm not going to call it a rantom to
Speaker 1: call it an inspired speech from a couple of years ago,
Speaker 1: and responded to your hire only women's stance with you know,
Speaker 1: you should hire the best person? Or what if a
Speaker 1: men's coach said the same thing, what's your response to that? Well?
Speaker 2: I think when whenever I would say to somebody, are
Speaker 2: you looking to hire a woman? They would say I'm
Speaker 2: going to hire the best person for the job. And
Speaker 2: I would say, great, then you're going to be hiring
Speaker 2: a woman. And I think that that people don't again
Speaker 2: they you know, they look at the interview and they're
Speaker 2: looking at men doing certain things and we're going to
Speaker 2: get better at that. We can get better at that.
Speaker 2: But I think you have to go out intentionally. I
Speaker 2: think you have to look and say it's women's basketball.
Speaker 2: These women need a role model, they need somebody they
Speaker 2: can look up to and say that's what I want
Speaker 2: to be. There's where my path to success is going
Speaker 2: to be. That's my future. I'm looking at somebody. Men
Speaker 2: can't teach women women what it's like to be a
Speaker 2: woman at this age, in this time of their life
Speaker 2: and the things that we have to go through, and
Speaker 2: the stereotypes were battling the little I call them paper
Speaker 2: cuts that you know, we all go through, like just
Speaker 2: almost daily, somebody says something, or you hear something, you
Speaker 2: read something, and you think, oh, my gosh, how are
Speaker 2: we going to deal with this? They need strong women
Speaker 2: to be able to look up to and help them
Speaker 2: through so many different things that they're going through at
Speaker 2: this age.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think if you're tempted to apply the
Speaker 1: same logic in reverse, you will be ignoring the context
Speaker 1: that exists. There is not currently a vacuum of male
Speaker 1: representation in sport. There is not a vacuum or historic
Speaker 1: precedent of men not being in leadership positions that women
Speaker 1: and men can see. So if you're talking about why
Speaker 1: it's great to add a female coach to a men's team,
Speaker 1: there are myriad ways that that is necessary and beneficial
Speaker 1: that don't apply in reverse the other way because they
Speaker 1: are already seeing and exposed to a million different male
Speaker 1: leadership models across the space, and usually in their coaching
Speaker 1: coming up and everywhere else. Do we hold it against
Speaker 1: spaces that are not making enough of an effort or
Speaker 1: at least not getting the outcome, or at least not
Speaker 1: resulting in enough women coaches. Like I mentioned, Unrivaled is
Speaker 1: for women by women, and yet four of the six
Speaker 1: head coaches are men. The WNBA is getting further away
Speaker 1: from diversity in terms of both race and gender in
Speaker 1: terms of their head coaching. Do we hold these places
Speaker 1: feet to the fire or do we look at it
Speaker 1: in cycles and give them the benefit of the doubt
Speaker 1: that that's what the interviews came up with.
Speaker 2: Oh, I definitely think we should hold them accountable. You
Speaker 2: look at what happened at Phoenix last year when they
Speaker 2: had a coaching changed. They not only hired a man
Speaker 2: who had no experience with coaching women, but he was
Speaker 2: the highest bided coach in the new UNBI. Now how
Speaker 2: is that possible? So, you know, was there a public outcry?
Speaker 2: I didn't feel it. I mean, I think there was
Speaker 2: a lot of things said behind closed doors, But you know,
Speaker 2: and then the team was not very successful. So what
Speaker 2: are we looking at now? And I think the other
Speaker 2: problem is a lot of teams look and say, you
Speaker 2: know what, hired a woman, tried that didn't work. Hired
Speaker 2: a man. I mean, you know, but never say that
Speaker 2: when it's a guy. You know, we are like representing
Speaker 2: our entire gender every time we take a jump.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true. You know. One of the things
Speaker 1: that was the biggest change in the makeup gender makeup
Speaker 1: of college women's sports was money. Historically it was predominant women,
Speaker 1: and it was back with Pat Summit had to do
Speaker 1: the laundry and coach the team. Right, you start making money,
Speaker 1: men are like that looks nice over there, They get
Speaker 1: hired more, and bam, all of a sudden, we have
Speaker 1: all these women's teams being coached by men instead. There's
Speaker 1: also that disparity between the professional and college ranks. Historically,
Speaker 1: hoops coaching jobs have been more financially desirable than coaching
Speaker 1: in the WNBA. The best college coaches are making more
Speaker 1: money than most WNBA head coaches. USA Today reported eighteen
Speaker 1: college coaches last year had an annual based salary of
Speaker 1: more than a million. As far as we know, just
Speaker 1: Nate Tibbets you just mentioned and Becky Hammond make that much.
Speaker 1: How do you think that paid disparity plays into whether
Speaker 1: coaches decide to coach in college or the W And
Speaker 1: is that something that the W needs to address in
Speaker 1: order to draw the kind of candidates that might go elsewhere.
Speaker 2: Well, I think the W could address that, but I
Speaker 2: think we're going to see very soon coaches leaving college.
Speaker 2: We have two of them already this year leaving the
Speaker 2: college game and heading to the WNBA because of n
Speaker 2: and the transfer portal. I think, especially some of the
Speaker 2: older coaches that are looking in saying this in the
Speaker 2: job I signed up for, I really want to teach,
Speaker 2: you know, I really feel like I'm an educator as
Speaker 2: much as a coach. And now it's all about who's
Speaker 2: got the most money, and that's really not what amateur
Speaker 2: athletics was supposed to be about. So I think we
Speaker 2: will see some coaches moving on like the two that
Speaker 2: did it this year, and see what kind of success
Speaker 2: they had, and that could be I can see women
Speaker 2: being driven out of the game because they don't want
Speaker 2: to deal with all the money issues, the transfer stuff.
Speaker 1: We were talking earlier about how money might change some
Speaker 1: of the investments and more parody across the college space.
Speaker 1: There is a potential, too, for another distribution of money
Speaker 1: across the college spase. The twenty twenty five NCAA Convention
Speaker 1: is this week. Full membership is expected to vote on
Speaker 1: whether to approve a women's basketball distribution fund, which is
Speaker 1: called the Unit. If you haven't heard of the Unit,
Speaker 1: the context is basically, since ninety one, NCAA has paid
Speaker 1: conferences for the games their teams play during March Madness.
Speaker 1: So you earn a unit at about two million dollars
Speaker 1: each for every game they play during the tournament, and
Speaker 1: then over the next six years, the conferences decide how
Speaker 1: to allocate the money to each school. So SEC got
Speaker 1: sixteen units last year. That's about thirty two million for
Speaker 1: the men's basketball teams over the previous six years, but
Speaker 1: no women's teams in the SEC have earned any money
Speaker 1: from that. Even though the game Cocks made the Final
Speaker 1: four for four straight years won two titles, that doesn't
Speaker 1: make the school money. Now, this is something I've railed
Speaker 1: against for years, because how do you incentivize investment in
Speaker 1: your women's team if you have nothing to show for it?
Speaker 1: When they have great success, and on the men's side,
Speaker 1: you're constantly getting paid every time your team approves. So
Speaker 1: the NCAA membership can vote to change that this week.
Speaker 1: The amount for the women's tournament is not surprisingly far
Speaker 1: less than what the men's would make. It would be
Speaker 1: about fifteen million allocated from this tournament compared to two
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million on the men's side. But it's
Speaker 1: a start. Do you think that that needs to happen?
Speaker 1: Do we need to start showing schools if you care
Speaker 1: about women's sports and your teams do well, it will
Speaker 1: help you financially.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's been a long time coming. I think Charlie
Speaker 2: Baker's really done a great job as ahead of the
Speaker 2: nc DOUBLEA. He is very pro women and pro equality.
Speaker 2: And you're right, it's such a small number. I mean,
Speaker 2: you take fifteen million. If you divide it by thirty
Speaker 2: two conferences, or even even if you went to sweet sixteen,
Speaker 2: you get a million dollars for your conference. How much
Speaker 2: is these school going to gates? Some of these leagues
Speaker 2: have eighteen teams, so you know, but I think it's
Speaker 2: a good starting point that the other issue is how
Speaker 2: are they gonna enhance that every year. I think there
Speaker 2: was like a percentage it's going to go up four
Speaker 2: percent every year or six or whatever. That's not very much.
Speaker 2: I mean we need to double it every year, and
Speaker 2: we need to try to catch up. They certainly have
Speaker 2: enough money on the men's side's let's share that pot.
Speaker 1: Well, and particularly as the numbers continue to be less
Speaker 1: jarring in favor of the men. Last year, the women's
Speaker 1: final game, the championship game, got better ratings than the men.
Speaker 1: There are far more household names on the women's side
Speaker 1: because as the one and done situation on the men's
Speaker 1: side means that a star is in and out and
Speaker 1: moved on before you've had a chance to really learn
Speaker 1: about them. On the women's side, we are getting players
Speaker 1: like Juju Watkins, for instance, who had such a spectacular
Speaker 1: freshman year that were sophomore year and she has already
Speaker 1: known and starring across the space, drawing fans, drawing interest
Speaker 1: that should be viewed in a way that we for
Speaker 1: years have ignored. On the women's side, This value that
Speaker 1: they're bringing to their schools, and to do it by
Speaker 1: virtue of tournament appearances and success just makes sense. When
Speaker 1: you're doing it on the men's side. One last question
Speaker 1: about the sort of NCAA we've seen over the last
Speaker 1: couple of years, beginning really with the independent investigation into
Speaker 1: the rights values of the women's tournament, where they realize
Speaker 1: that they at the time said it was worth about
Speaker 1: eighty million a year to have the rights to the
Speaker 1: women's tournament, with upwards of one hundred and ten million
Speaker 1: in value per year, and they were being coupled with
Speaker 1: all the rights to the other national titles for about
Speaker 1: six million. It was an absolute disgrace, and for a
Speaker 1: place that's really known to care mostly about money in
Speaker 1: the NCUBA in a lot of ways, for them to
Speaker 1: be losing that much money just told you how much
Speaker 1: the misogyny and the antiquatedy is about the value of
Speaker 1: women's sports were baked in that they didn't even have
Speaker 1: a belief that they were missing out on so much.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about now the idea that they are
Speaker 1: separating the rights packages. They're actually looking at the women's
Speaker 1: tournament as a money maker, they're actually looking at the
Speaker 1: valuation realistically. But that number, that eighty one to one
Speaker 1: hundred and twelve million, that was sort of ignored instead
Speaker 1: they agreed to continue bundling it with other NCAA championships
Speaker 1: as part of an eight year deal with ESPN. Nine
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million dollars. Sounds like a big number,
Speaker 1: but that's all of them. Do you think the women's
Speaker 1: tournament should have just been sold separately? Do you think
Speaker 1: they should have looked at that valuation and said, let's
Speaker 1: actually get out there and see what we can get
Speaker 1: for this product.
Speaker 2: I think that was the hope of most of the people,
Speaker 2: and the Women's Coaches Association and people familiar with what
Speaker 2: we're doing here. I think everybody wanted us to go out,
Speaker 2: be separate, stand on our own, see what we could do.
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened in the negotiations. Obviously it
Speaker 2: did not come to fruition, but I really do have
Speaker 2: faith in Charlie Baker and where he has taken women's basketball,
Speaker 2: So I hope that in the future there was a plan.
Speaker 2: But I think Camlyn Clark changed the game. I mean
Speaker 2: she changed everything. We were playing in arenas that were
Speaker 2: probably too small, you know, by the time, but you know,
Speaker 2: you have to make those decisions five years out. Before
Speaker 2: she even got to Iowa. The decision was made where
Speaker 2: they're going to play the NCAA tournament. So I think
Speaker 2: that we were maybe a little short sighted with our vision,
Speaker 2: and now I think we've seen what we can be.
Speaker 2: I think we're finally at that point where so many
Speaker 2: women in my generation are saying, I knew what would happen.
Speaker 2: I'm glad it happened in my lifetime, and now let's
Speaker 2: build on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I would like to see some failures in the
Speaker 1: opposite direction where they're like, oops, we went too big.
Speaker 1: Yes we didn't sell out, like how we don't see
Speaker 1: that often. Usually what we see as well sold out
Speaker 1: in twenty four hours. Oh well you could have gone
Speaker 1: even bigger. Do it next time? Right? Yeah? Well, coach,
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you've got the ACC show, you're
Speaker 1: doing some stuff ESPN. I know you have earned retirement
Speaker 1: and to do nothing but eat bombbonds all day and
Speaker 1: sit marks. But please keep your voice in these spaces.
Speaker 1: Get Charlie on the phone as often as possible. Talk
Speaker 1: to the people in decision making spaces, because your voice
Speaker 1: is so needed, and we are at this precipice of major,
Speaker 1: major change that could get much much bigger. But we
Speaker 1: need people to not drop the ball in these opportunities,
Speaker 1: and I trust you and I would follow you into battle,
Speaker 1: so you know, make sure you're around when these conversations
Speaker 1: are being had.
Speaker 2: Thanks Sarah, I feel the same about you. I love
Speaker 2: your voice. You are doing your best and we all
Speaker 2: need to get on board.
Speaker 1: Thanks again to coach for taking the time. If you
Speaker 1: want to watch that great viral speech again, we'll link
Speaker 1: to it in the show notes, as well as an
Speaker 1: essay from Director of Women's Coaches and Executives at Wasserman
Speaker 1: Emily Joe Roberts about investing in women coaches, and we'll
Speaker 1: put the link to the co leadership essay I mentioned
Speaker 1: from my friend Linda Lou as well. We got to
Speaker 1: take another quick break stick around welcome back slices. We
Speaker 1: always love that you're listening and we love to hear
Speaker 1: from you, so hit us up on email good game
Speaker 1: at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at
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