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Speaker 1: Welcome to Good Game with Sarah Spain, where we're still

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Speaker 1: cheesing over the Minnesota frost rocking eighties ski suits to

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Speaker 1: their Denver Takeover Tour game. It's Tuesday, January fourteenth, and

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Speaker 1: on today's show, we'll be chatting with Hall of Fame

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Speaker 1: coach Muffett McGraw about Notre Dame's success this season, Hannah Hidalgo,

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Speaker 1: the state of coaching in women's sports, and more. Plus

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Speaker 1: a brit goes to Canada College hockey gets cooking and

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Speaker 1: some folks have punched their tickets straight to the bad place.

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Speaker 1: It's all coming up right after this welcome back slices.

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Speaker 1: Here's what you need to know today to soccer. Casey

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Speaker 1: Stoney has officially been confirmed as the next coach of

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Speaker 1: the Canadian national team, just seven months after her questionable

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Speaker 1: firing as head coach of the San Diego Wave. If

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Speaker 1: you remember, Stony led the Wave to the playoffs in

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Speaker 1: the team's inaugural season before winning the NWSL Shield and

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Speaker 1: NWSL Challenge Cup in the following two years. The lead

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Speaker 1: for Team Canada after former head coach Bev Priestman was

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Speaker 1: handed a one year suspension by FIFA and then fired

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Speaker 1: by Soccer Canada after an investigation into the program's use

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Speaker 1: of drones to spy on other teams. There's also some

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Speaker 1: coaching news in pro basketball, with a couple WNBA teams

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Speaker 1: rounding out their benches. Newly announced Dallas Wings coach Chris

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Speaker 1: Koklanis has hired Camille Smith and Nola Henry to serve

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Speaker 1: as assistants. Smith and Henry both served as assistants for

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Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Sparks under then head coach Kurt Miller

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Speaker 1: during the twenty twenty four season. Henry is also one

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Speaker 1: of the head coaches for the inaugural season of Unrivaled,

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Speaker 1: where she'll lead the Rose basketball club. The New York

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Speaker 1: Liberty also announced the signing of a new assistant coach,

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Speaker 1: Sonia Rahman. She most recently served as an assistant coach

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Speaker 1: for the mnba's Memphis Grizzlies, spending five seasons with the team.

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Speaker 1: To college hockey, the Women's bean Pot gets underway tonight.

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Speaker 1: The annual tournament is a big deal in Boston, where

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Speaker 1: the four local teams Northeastern, bu BC, and Harvard meet

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Speaker 1: up to compete for bragging rights. Last year's championship mark

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Speaker 1: the five first time the women played at t D Garden,

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Speaker 1: home of the NHL's Bruins, and they'll be back again

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Speaker 1: this year for next Tuesday's championship. But first, the semi

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Speaker 1: finals get underway tonight at Northeastern's Matthew's Arena. Boston College

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Speaker 1: faces off against Harvard, followed by BC against Northeastern. Finally,

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Speaker 1: some infuriating and scary news over the weekend, A fifty

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Speaker 1: five year old man from Texas was arrested in Indianapolis

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Speaker 1: and charged with felony stalking after he allegedly sent threats

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Speaker 1: and sexually explicit messages to WNBA star Caitlin Clark. The

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Speaker 1: Athletic reviewed the court documents and reported that the man,

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Speaker 1: named Michael Lewis, traveled from his home in Texas to

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Speaker 1: Indiana in order to be closer to Clark. The Indianapolis

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Speaker 1: Star reported that prosecutors have moved to ban the man

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Speaker 1: from the two home venues where the Fever play, Hanklefield

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Speaker 1: House and Gainbridge Field House. We got to take a

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Speaker 1: quick break. When we come back, we get real honest.

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Speaker 1: With Muffett McGraw joining us now. She was the head

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Speaker 1: women's basketball coach at Notre Dame from nineteen eighty seven

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Speaker 1: to twenty twenty, compiling an eight hundred and forty eight

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Speaker 1: and two to fifty two record over thirty three seasons.

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Speaker 1: She led her team to nine final fours, seven championship

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Speaker 1: game appearances, and two National Championship wins. A college player

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Speaker 1: at Saint Joseph's University, then briefly a pro player for

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Speaker 1: the California Dreams of the Women's Professional Basketball League, she

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Speaker 1: coached a few spots before Notre Dame, including Lehigh, where

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Speaker 1: she coached now WNBA Commissi Kathy Engelbert, a member of

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Speaker 1: the Nasmith Basketball Hall of Fame and the Women's Basketball

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Speaker 1: Hall of Fame and the first female coach at Notre

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Speaker 1: Dame to have a statue in her honor. She was

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Speaker 1: born Ann, but she legally changed her name to Muffett.

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Speaker 1: Yes like little Miss Muffett, and she once appeared on

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Speaker 1: NPR's weight Wait don't tell me an incorrectly answered a

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Speaker 1: question about a nursery rhyme that's actually about consorting with prostitutes.

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Speaker 1: It's Muffett McGraw. What's up, coach?

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Speaker 2: I remember that. Wait, wait, don't tell me. That was

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Speaker 2: so much fun. I'd love that show.

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Speaker 1: I was shocked to hear that the Lucy goosey or

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Speaker 1: whatever rhyme was actually about hookers.

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Speaker 2: I had little to I know.

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Speaker 1: Coach, thank you so much for taking time to come

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Speaker 1: on the show. You retired from coaching in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: and we saw you pop up on ESPN recently doing

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Speaker 1: some NCAA hoops analysis. Can we expect more of that?

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Speaker 1: Tell us what else you've been up to.

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Speaker 2: I'm on every Thursday night on the ACC Network. We

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Speaker 2: have a women's show. It's the only women's show in

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Speaker 2: the country. We feature ACC basketball, but we have an

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Speaker 2: hour long show all women, and that's all we talk

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Speaker 2: about every single week right up through the tournament. And

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Speaker 2: I'm doing a little bit of ESPN also, but mostly

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Speaker 2: we cover ACC Network.

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Speaker 1: What's the show called, tell us?

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's called nothing but Net. But the problem is

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Speaker 2: the men's show is called nothing but Net also, so

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Speaker 2: when you're taping them, you're going to get a hundred

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Speaker 2: of them instead of just the one. So you have

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Speaker 2: to find a Thursday night show.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Thursday night, nothing but Net. I love that. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk some Irish hoops before we zoom out

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Speaker 1: and go more big picture. We've seen former players take

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Speaker 1: over coaching duties at their alma maters with success before,

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Speaker 1: but neil Ivy's transitioned to head coach just felt especially seamless.

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Speaker 1: And we know she was your assistant for over a

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Speaker 1: decade before taking over. That certainly helps. But what is

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Speaker 1: it about her that makes her such an excellent head

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Speaker 1: coach and recruiter?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think point guards make the best coaches.

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Speaker 2: They look at the game differently, they study the game differently,

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Speaker 2: you know, they see it from that angle where they're

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Speaker 2: seeing the whole floor. They know everything that's going on

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Speaker 2: in every position. And as a point guard, she was

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Speaker 2: that kind of player, just a really smart player, a

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Speaker 2: great leader, and I knew a long time ago that

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Speaker 2: she was going to be a terrific coach. So when

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Speaker 2: I had a job open, it was pretty much the

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Speaker 2: easiest decision ever made to hire neil Ivy. And she

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Speaker 2: was young, she didn't know, she didn't have any experience,

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Speaker 2: she didn't know a lot, But each day, each year

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Speaker 2: really kind of gave her a little bit more and

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Speaker 2: a little bit more until eventually she was ready to

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Speaker 2: do it all. But the first year she came in,

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Speaker 2: I said you have one job. Get Skylar Diggins to

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Speaker 2: say yes to Notre Dame. That's the only recruit you have.

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Speaker 2: I want you working full time on that. And then

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Speaker 2: of course she did that very well and continued to

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Speaker 2: be one of our recruiters. But also she was a

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Speaker 2: great scout. She understands offense and defense. And then the

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Speaker 2: year that I was about to retire, she had an

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Speaker 2: opportunity to go to Memphis in the NBA and have

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Speaker 2: a year in the NBA. And you know, I said,

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Speaker 2: what a great training ground for you. You've only ever

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Speaker 2: known me. You know I'm the only person you played

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Speaker 2: for me. You coach with me, go learn something different

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Speaker 2: from somebody else at the highest level. And I think

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Speaker 2: that really helped her as well.

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Speaker 1: So speaking of recruiting, actually I want to ask you this.

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Speaker 1: Caitlyn Clark talked about how Notre Dame was top of

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Speaker 1: the list and then she made the switch to Iowa.

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Speaker 1: What do you remember about those conversations and what would

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Speaker 1: it have looked like if it had been Caitlyn Clark

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Speaker 1: at Notre Dame.

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Speaker 2: I may still be coaching if Kaitlyn Clark couldn't come

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Speaker 2: to Notre Dame. I remember it well. I loved recruiting

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Speaker 2: her terrific, terrific person, loved her game of parents, great family,

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Speaker 2: everything was good. She went to a Catholic school. When

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Speaker 2: I went to recruiting at Dallan Catholic, they waited on me.

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Speaker 2: I mean, they brought me popcorn, they brought me drink,

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Speaker 2: you know, they gave me special seating. It was amazing.

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Speaker 2: Everybody in the place, I think, wanted her to go

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Speaker 2: to Notre Dame. And it was fun recruiting or the

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Speaker 2: home visit was great. She committed to us, but I

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Speaker 2: had a feeling it was kind of a soft commitment

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Speaker 2: when she did, because she couldn't decide, couldn't decide. And

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Speaker 2: then finally she said, you know, I want to come,

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Speaker 2: but it wasn't it wasn't like I'm coming, you know,

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Speaker 2: it was kind of like I made the decision. And

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Speaker 2: so after that we waited and waited for her to

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Speaker 2: announce it because, as you know, we're not allowed to

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Speaker 2: announce anything. The players have to do that themselves. And

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Speaker 2: so she made the announcement. A long time after that,

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Speaker 2: I kept saying, when is it coming out? And then

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Speaker 2: when she made the announcement she was going to Iowa.

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Speaker 2: But of course she called me first to tell me

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Speaker 2: that she was going to that classy person that she is,

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Speaker 2: you know, And I thought, after seeing four years of

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Speaker 2: her at Iowa, it was probably a pretty good decision

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Speaker 2: because I remember thinking, I'm not sure I'm gonna like

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Speaker 2: those shots right over half court when we have all

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Speaker 2: these good players around you. So I think she made

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Speaker 2: a good decision. We would have obviously been contending for

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Speaker 2: national championship if she had come to Notre Dame, but

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Speaker 2: total respect for her game.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I can hear the Notre Dame fans out there

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Speaker 1: both crying and screaming about that missed opportunity. Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: talk this Irish team. After a little transitional period, they've

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Speaker 1: been back in the top five on a regular basis

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Speaker 1: for the last three seasons, currently sitting at number three

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Speaker 1: in the country with what feels like a pretty good

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Speaker 1: opportunity to make a title run. What do you enjoy

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Speaker 1: most about watching this group of players and the brand

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Speaker 1: of hoops they're playing.

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Speaker 2: The best backcourt in the country at Notre Dame. I'm

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Speaker 2: loving Olivia Miles is an incredible passer. She has such

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Speaker 2: great vision. She's really fun to watch improved a three

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Speaker 2: point percentage by twenty percentage points.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 2: And then Hannah Hidalgo, who was the national player of

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Speaker 2: the year I think, and she also leads the nation

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Speaker 2: in steals. She's I think second in the country in scoring,

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Speaker 2: first in steals. Those two are so hard to guard.

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Speaker 2: You want to put your best defender on one of them,

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Speaker 2: and you can't decide which one. And then you've got

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Speaker 2: Sonya Citron on the wing. Mattie Westfield is back and healthy.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what a terrific, terrific squad. And they got

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Speaker 2: Leah tu King from pitt in the transfer portal. She

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Speaker 2: is playing great basketball right now. So this team has

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Speaker 2: all of the tools to get to the final four.

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Speaker 1: Doesnielle ever call you just like, Hey, I have a

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Speaker 1: quick question or I was thinking about this. What do

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Speaker 1: you make of this? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk and I text her pretty frequently just

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Speaker 2: after games about great stuff. I don't I never critique

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Speaker 2: the team, but yeah, we talk more in the preseason.

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Speaker 2: You know, here's what we're putting in. What do you

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Speaker 2: think about this or that?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Wow, what a nice thing for her to have

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Speaker 1: you on on standby for that. You mentioned Hannahidalgo such

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Speaker 1: a fun player to watch, absolutely insane swag, so many

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Speaker 1: skills in her bag, and it's been interesting to see

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Speaker 1: the reaction to her play. She obviously as a player,

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Speaker 1: is undoubtedly, like you said, in the running for Player

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Speaker 1: of the Year. But I haven't seen a lot of

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Speaker 1: covered of some of the online pushback that she got.

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Speaker 1: Last summer, she reposted a conversation to her Instagram story.

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Speaker 1: It was a conversation between former CNN host and gay

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Speaker 1: man Don Lemon and Candice Owens, who's a political commentator,

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Speaker 1: and she later deleted it, but she posted this part

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Speaker 1: of the video where Lemon asked Owens if she believes

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Speaker 1: that he's sinful because he's married to a man, and

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Speaker 1: Owens responded, yes, you're sinning, you're in a sinful relationship.

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Speaker 1: I actually don't believe marriage can be between two men.

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Speaker 1: And you know, obviously people are allowed to have their beliefs,

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Speaker 1: but when religious beliefs include sharing some of those bigoted views,

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Speaker 1: and especially when they're in this space of women's basketball

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Speaker 1: that has plenty of out gay athletes, I wonder what

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Speaker 1: responsibility there is for the team or the media, I guess,

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Speaker 1: to hold an athlete accountable to expect them to speak

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Speaker 1: on that and defend that behavior. What did you make

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Speaker 1: of that and how it's been responded to or maybe

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Speaker 1: not responded to.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a really poor choice on her part,

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Speaker 2: first been leaving that I think it's a poor choice,

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Speaker 2: and then saying it on as you said, on a

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Speaker 2: stage where women's basketball. There are a number of gay

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Speaker 2: players out there, and I thought that it was almost

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Speaker 2: insulting to our teammates, to everybody in the game of basketball.

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Speaker 2: I was really disappointed that it came out that way.

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Speaker 2: I was happy that she deleted it, but the damage

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Speaker 2: I think was done before she deleted it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think we've talked about this on our show

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Speaker 1: with a couple different athletes, where the natural instinct is

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Speaker 1: to call someone out for behavior that you disagree with,

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Speaker 1: but ultimately, when you're on a team, you're in a

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Speaker 1: locker room, you have to work together with a shared goal.

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Speaker 1: There is this feeling of calling in. How do you

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Speaker 1: hold someone accountable and also try to let them learn

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Speaker 1: or experience life in a way that might change their

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Speaker 1: mind about something like that. How do you balance accountability

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Speaker 1: in a locker room when you were coaching with all

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Speaker 1: these different mindsets and lived experiences coming together.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, Sarah, I think the great thing about

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Speaker 2: sports is we're a microcosm of society and we deal

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Speaker 2: and live work with different people who you know, different

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Speaker 2: They come from different backgrounds, black, white, straight, gay, religious,

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Speaker 2: not religious. You know, there's so many things that they

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Speaker 2: do to work together, and they come out as a

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Speaker 2: team with one goal, one team. And so I think

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Speaker 2: it's really hard to have a player in the locker

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Speaker 2: room that feels that way about somebody else in the

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Speaker 2: locker room who may be gay. So I think it's

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Speaker 2: going to take it would take a lot of conversations.

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Speaker 2: Accountability for me, was like that was the number one

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Speaker 2: thing in having a championship team. Honesty, trust and accountability.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to trust when you have somebody that believes

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Speaker 2: that what you believe is wrong. So I think it

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Speaker 2: takes a lot of time to kind of get to

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Speaker 2: know people, learn, you know, this is what I think,

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Speaker 2: this is who I am, you know, and really have

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Speaker 2: open conversations about it, because I don't think it's a

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Speaker 2: good idea to just see it and then not talk

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Speaker 2: about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it does feel like ultimately it's as festers

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Speaker 1: when there aren't more open conversations about it. She's a

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Speaker 1: young person and I hope that she does find her

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Speaker 1: way to the other side of that kind of thinking.

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Speaker 1: But hopefully there is support within that locker room and

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Speaker 1: accountability eventually. Right if any of those posts continue, or

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Speaker 1: if she continues to make those kind of statements. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about now that you're separated from the

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Speaker 1: space a little bit more, not in it every day.

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Speaker 1: Back in twenty twenty one, you said you thought ESPN

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Speaker 1: was biased toward Yukon. Do you still think that's an issue?

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Speaker 1: Has it changed at all? And now that there is

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Speaker 1: a little bit more parody in terms of the superstar players, coaches, storylines,

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Speaker 1: is ESPN doing a better job sharing the wealth?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think now the fact that the Big East

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Speaker 2: is on Fox, I think that they don't have as

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Speaker 2: many games on. But I think the real thing that's changed,

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Speaker 2: Sarah was when conferences got their own TV deals, the

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Speaker 2: ACC Network, the SEC Network, people were able to watch

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Speaker 2: games without hearing about Yukon because the announcers were focusing

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Speaker 2: on that conference. So I think that conversations really have

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Speaker 2: turned to you know, what's happening in the SEC, what's

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Speaker 2: happening in the ACC, what's happened in the Big Ten.

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Speaker 2: I mean, everybody has their own networks, so when you

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Speaker 2: watch games, you're not constantly hearing about that. And I

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Speaker 2: think the fact that we've you know, we've had other

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Speaker 2: really good teams South Carolina, LSU, so many other different

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Speaker 2: teams are winning now, I think that there is room

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Speaker 2: for everyone. I think that Connecticut definitely benefited from what

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Speaker 2: they got from ESPN through the years, but lately with

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Speaker 2: other teams winning, I don't I think that they still

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Speaker 2: believe that everybody wants to watch Yukon play. And then

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Speaker 2: when you look at the teams and the games, and

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Speaker 2: you saw what happened in the final last year with

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Speaker 2: you know, Connecticut wasn't in the final, and we set

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Speaker 2: records for people watching and listening. So I think they're

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Speaker 2: they're learning, but I think they still that's still their fallback.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's so close, like literally geographically too. So

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Speaker 1: I found those conversations simultaneously infuriating and fascinating for all

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Speaker 1: those years about like, is Yukon women's basketball bad for women?

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Speaker 1: And it was like you both understood that singular focus

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Speaker 1: was limiting your ability to learn about the rest of

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Speaker 1: the teams and stars. And you also knew that when

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Speaker 1: you create this like sometimes person or team to hate

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Speaker 1: because they're always winning, it also drives interest in a

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Speaker 1: way that spreading the wealth doesn't. So I think we're

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Speaker 1: in a much better spot now as women's basketball. But

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Speaker 1: I do think they played their role in kind of

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Speaker 1: the same way that Caitlyn played a role in this

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Speaker 1: massive leap of excitement. Is people sometimes need that one

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Speaker 1: thing to focus in on that kind of opens the

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Speaker 1: door for them. Do you agree?

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Speaker 2: I absolutely agree? And can I get set the standard?

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Speaker 2: I mean they raised the bar for everyone, and you know,

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Speaker 2: rising tide lifts all boats. Everybody started to say, we

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Speaker 2: got to do what they're doing. How are we going

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Speaker 2: to do that? What do we have to do recruiting wise,

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Speaker 2: what kind of style of play? What is it that

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Speaker 2: we need to improve on to get to their level?

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Speaker 2: And that was the biggest thing. I think It's all

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Speaker 2: about recruiting. They have three Player of the Years right

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Speaker 2: now on their high school Player of the Years, and

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Speaker 2: you're gonna have a pretty good team when you get

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Speaker 2: the number one player. And what happened to give us parody?

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Speaker 2: You know, Asia decides you're gonna go to South Carolina

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Speaker 2: and Leah Boston went to South Carolina, and different people

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Speaker 2: were going different places, and that's really how we got

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Speaker 2: the parody going. Somebody like Caitlin Clark stays in Iowa

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Speaker 2: and brings them to a Final Four. So I think

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Speaker 2: when you have players that are willing to go different places.

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Speaker 2: But again, if you're not hearing Connecticut all the time

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Speaker 2: every time you're watching the game, maybe you will think, hey,

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Speaker 2: we're watching South Carolina right now, and they had a

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Speaker 2: pretty good spob.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. And also just investment right across the

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Speaker 1: space where you see what Yukon has and you think,

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Speaker 1: let's bring that to our school by actually investing in

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Speaker 1: coaches and resources and everything else, which has been really

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Speaker 1: cool to see. Yeah, I want to pick your brain

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Speaker 1: about coaching, in particular in women's basketball. Let's take a

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Speaker 1: listen to this answer that you gave you. You were

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Speaker 1: asked a question about women and coaching at the Final

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Speaker 1: Four back in twenty nineteen and talked about women in

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Speaker 1: leadership spaces in general, and this went truly viral. Let's

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Speaker 1: take a listen. Muffett. I know you made some comments

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Speaker 1: about hiring practices and what you do in the future.

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Speaker 1: How important. As your career has gone on and we've

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Speaker 1: lost past summit, how seriously do you take being that voice?

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Speaker 2: Did you know that the Equal Rights Amendment was introduced

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty seven and it still hasn't passed. We

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Speaker 2: need thirty eight states to agree that discrimination on the

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Speaker 2: basis of sex is unconstitutional. We've had a record number

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Speaker 2: of women running for office and winning, and still we

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Speaker 2: have twenty three percent of the House and twenty five

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Speaker 2: percent of the Senate. I'm getting tired of the novelty

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Speaker 2: of the first American, the first female governor of this state,

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Speaker 2: the first female African American mayor of this city. When

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Speaker 2: is it going to become the norm instead of the exception.

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Speaker 2: How are these young women looking up and seeing someone

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Speaker 2: that looks like them preparing them for the future. We

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Speaker 2: don't have enough female role models, We don't have enough

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Speaker 2: visible women leaders. We don't have enough women in power.

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Speaker 2: Girls are socialized to know when they come out, generals

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Speaker 2: are already set. Men run the world, Men have the power,

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Speaker 2: Men make the decisions. It's always the men that is

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Speaker 2: the stronger one. And when these girls are coming out.

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Speaker 2: Who are they looking up to to tell them that

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Speaker 2: that's not the way it has to be. And where

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Speaker 2: better to do that than in sports. All these millions

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Speaker 2: of girls that play sports across the country. They could

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Speaker 2: come out every day and we're teaching them great things

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Speaker 2: about life skills. But wouldn't it be great if we

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Speaker 2: could teach them to watch how women lead. This is

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Speaker 2: a path for you to take to get to the

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Speaker 2: point where in this country we have fifty percent of

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Speaker 2: women in power. We have less out right now, less

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Speaker 2: than five percent of women are CEOs of fortune five

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Speaker 2: hundred companies. So yes, when you look at men's basketball

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Speaker 2: and ninety nine percent of the jobs go to men,

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Speaker 2: why shouldn't one hundred or ninety nine percent of the

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Speaker 2: jobs in women's basketball go to women. Maybe it's because

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Speaker 2: we only have ten percent women athletic directors in division. IE.

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Speaker 2: People hire people who look like them, and that's the problem.

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Speaker 1: Gosh. I'm still very moved by that, and I remember

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Speaker 1: being asked about it on around the Horn with you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the obvious and expected questions about is it

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Speaker 1: similarly discriminatory to not hire men and only hire women?

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Speaker 1: But to first, I want to ask do you feel

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Speaker 1: better or worse about the state of coaching and equality

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Speaker 1: in general today than you did then?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think I think there were some improvements initially.

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Speaker 2: I think right after that people really did start to think.

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Speaker 2: But I think we're still sixty percent men forty percent women,

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Speaker 2: and that's a problem. The problem comes from the athletic

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Speaker 2: directors who are doing the hiring. People hire people who

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Speaker 2: look like them, and that is still true today. That's

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Speaker 2: why there's so many men. And I think that women, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: we're not as aggressive go for jobs. I think we

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Speaker 2: could do a better job, first of all, of applying

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Speaker 2: for the job, of you know, going after the job,

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Speaker 2: where men are going to pick up the phone and say,

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Speaker 2: I want that job. I'm going to take your team

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Speaker 2: to the to the final four. If you hire me,

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Speaker 2: you know they're gonna they're gonna be a lot more

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Speaker 2: confident in the interview. And I've read a really interesting

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Speaker 2: article in the Harvard Business Journal and it's said men

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Speaker 2: win the interview because of their confidence, but women really

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Speaker 2: have better skills to do the job. They're much better

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Speaker 2: team players and collaborators. And the way coaching is going now,

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Speaker 2: it's not an autocracy. It's it's not come in and

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Speaker 2: this is what we're doing and here's how we're doing it.

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Speaker 2: It's really about team and bonding in chemistry and getting

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Speaker 2: people to work together, and women are so good at

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Speaker 2: that and we we just need to have the opportunity.

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Speaker 2: And when men get the job, I think it's up

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Speaker 2: to them to hire women. And that's something that Gino

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Speaker 2: has always done. He's always had women on his staff.

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Speaker 2: You have to be able to mentor them though and

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Speaker 2: get them off and become coaches. And I wish that

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Speaker 2: in the NBA, they're doing a great job. They're hiring

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Speaker 2: a lot of women. Bring them back like Becky Hammond,

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Speaker 2: and let's get some really good quality coaches on the

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Speaker 2: women's side.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think one of the points you're making is

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Speaker 1: so solid, which is that our kind of idea of

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Speaker 1: what a good coach looks like is still pretty antiquated.

433
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 1: It's this man who yells a lot and is intimidating.

434
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 1: For a lot of people, that's still what they imagine

435
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 1: when they think of a great coach. Four out of

436
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 1: the six unrivaled head coaches are men. Five of the

437
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 1: eight head coach hires in this WNBA offseason where men,

438
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,000
Speaker 1: As you mentioned, four out of ten coaches in NCAA

439
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 1: sports are women. Six out of ten are men across

440
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 1: Division one, and in the last reporting that I saw

441
00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one to twenty two, women were just sixty

442
00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,880
Speaker 1: six percent of head coaches in Division one college women's basketball.

443
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 1: So how much of this is a lack of imagination

444
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,560
Speaker 1: or an outdated idea of what a good coach looks like?

445
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 1: And how much do you think is about pipeline or

446
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: other issues.

447
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: I think it is mostly outdated, and gender bias is real.

448
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 2: I mean you don't have to look very far in

449
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 2: any business in any way, you know, look at politics.

450
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 2: We haven't gotten a women president yet, and gender bias

451
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 2: is real. I firmly believe that women are not getting

452
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 2: job just because when it comes right down to it,

453
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 2: they say, oh, I'll hire a woman. I don't mind

454
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,880
Speaker 2: hiring a woman, I'll vote for a woman, But when

455
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 2: it comes down to it, they don't. And I think

456
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: that's a problem. When you look at really everything, you know,

457
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,720
Speaker 2: you look in movies and TV and stuff we're watching,

458
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 2: how many producers, how many people behind the scenes. When

459
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: you look at how much they are they getting paid.

460
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,120
Speaker 2: How much are the women getting paid compared to them,

461
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:44,639
Speaker 2: to the male actors. I think it's across the board.

462
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,120
Speaker 2: You know, we're struggling to have equal pay, We're struggling

463
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 2: to have equal opportunity. They're taking our rights away. I mean,

464
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:52,959
Speaker 2: we are going in the wrong direction. We have so

465
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 2: many things that we need to really find somebody in

466
00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,880
Speaker 2: a leadership position that really understands women, and right now

467
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,000
Speaker 2: we don't have that.

468
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. And to your point about the

469
00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,640
Speaker 1: way men might pitch themselves as opposed to the job

470
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: that actually needs to be done is fascinating. I have

471
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 1: a friend named Linda lu who wrote a piece about

472
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: co leadership and the co leadership model that she uses

473
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: with her co head of company, and she wrote, the

474
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,679
Speaker 1: most prominent model of leadership we've seen focuses on finding

475
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,719
Speaker 1: ways to have more power over more people and in

476
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 1: turn to control a press and dictate how others should be.

477
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 1: This type of leadership is steeped in the white supremacy

478
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 1: culture of a deep sense of urgency, an immense amount

479
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: of control, Bigger is better thinking, and a simplistic view

480
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: that there's only one right way to be an effective leader.

481
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 1: And the right way is to lead with certainty even

482
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,679
Speaker 1: when you're uncertain, with power concentrated at the top, and

483
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 1: with a singular vision for the organization which all other

484
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 1: team members are then incentivized to achieve. But true leadership

485
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: is not about power and control. It's about a balance

486
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: between vision and journey, rooted and expansiveness, evolution, and always

487
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: in service to uniting, uplifting and caring for the collective.

488
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 1: Sounds like a team to me, the second one, not

489
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,639
Speaker 1: the first one. And yet it does feel like the

490
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,159
Speaker 1: old ideas around coaches and particularly why men get those jobs,

491
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 1: is the idea of my way or the highway. I'm

492
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:13,840
Speaker 1: certain power at the top, everybody following, if you do

493
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: what I say, will win. How do we convince people

494
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 1: that that ain't it anymore?

495
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 2: I think it's starting to come when when you read

496
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: any kind of leadership books now, they all talk about

497
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: it's not top down leadership anymore. That's not the way

498
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,359
Speaker 2: you lead because so many of those leaders fail eventually,

499
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: So you have to find the person that's going to

500
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 2: be a clever And all of the definitions that she

501
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 2: used to describing that second leadership thing, I kept thinking,

502
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 2: that's a woman, that's a woman. All these things are

503
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: what our strengths are, and that's what real leadership looks like.

504
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,000
Speaker 2: And I think we have to start younger. I mean,

505
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 2: when you look at kids going out to play soccer

506
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 2: when they're five and six years old, who's coaching the team?

507
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: Somebody's dad. Every time they have a chance to see

508
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 2: what leadership looks like, there's a man at the top.

509
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 2: You go into middle school, you go to aau, all

510
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,719
Speaker 2: of those coaches are men. So you're teaching these kids

511
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 2: men and women, Like, why isn't a woman. We have

512
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 2: so many great soccer players, why don't they coach their

513
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: sons team. Now, let's get more women out there coaching

514
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 2: boys at the younger ages so that they can look

515
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,439
Speaker 2: up and say, oh so I have a coach that's

516
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: a woman. It's no big deal, you know, and they

517
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 2: start to accept it at a younger age because we're

518
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 2: still so stereotypical. You know, you look at the boys

519
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 2: and girls. You know, you're pink, you're blue, you're going

520
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 2: down the aisle with the dolls, or you're going down

521
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 2: for the chemistry set and the trucks. You know, we

522
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: have to do something at a younger age to teach

523
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 2: these kids that you can be anything you want to be.

524
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it feels too like there has to be

525
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: an over correction with intention because to your point about

526
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 1: women coaches, sometimes what happens is the first barrier is, well,

527
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 1: I didn't play Division one, so I can't coach them. Meanwhile,

528
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 1: the dad over there never played at all, but he's

529
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: like I know this, yeah right. So after you get

530
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 1: past that, though, then it's are you able to be

531
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: away from your home or family for this the hours

532
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: or are you the primary caregiver right? Or are you

533
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: able to travel with the team If you have children

534
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: at home? Is their childcare right? So some of the

535
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: steps aren't just equality of opportunity, but what does the

536
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: pipeline and then the path of the work look like

537
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: so that women are capable of doing it? And do

538
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: we have to overcorrect in that way so that we

539
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: create more space.

540
00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: Well, I definitely think we need an overcorrection. I think

541
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: that's a good point. I think that's why women don't

542
00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 2: move around as much as men. You know, I'm going

543
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 2: to take this shob that I'm going to take that

544
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: job because it's more money. You know, they're more loyal,

545
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,000
Speaker 2: they're looking at different things. They're probably a tendency to

546
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 2: stay more in one space, But I think that's changing too,

547
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 2: And I think that you have to look at the

548
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 2: questions we get asked, Well, who's going to take care

549
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,719
Speaker 2: of the kids while you're out recruiting? You know, they

550
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: don't ask men those questions, So we really we just

551
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:54,159
Speaker 2: need to figure out a way to be that leader

552
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 2: and show people like we can do it. And there's

553
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 2: plenty of coaches that are doing it now. There are

554
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 2: a lot of women out there who have kids and

555
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,199
Speaker 2: people are everybody's been taken care of, you know, it's

556
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 2: not our job all the time. And really having a

557
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 2: great spouse, I think that's really a big part of

558
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,879
Speaker 2: the job. If you can have somebody to share that

559
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: load with you and be a teammate at home, I

560
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: think that's where women are going to find more success.

561
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, where would you start to change the makeup of

562
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 1: the coaching ranks? Would you try to talk to more

563
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 1: of the decision makers and change their mindset? Would you

564
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 1: try to start at lower levels and create the kind

565
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 1: of training in both confidence and ability to be willing

566
00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: to put themselves out there more for these jobs, Like

567
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 1: where's the best place that we need to be investing

568
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 1: time and resources.

569
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: You know, it's so hard to say, Sarah, because you

570
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,679
Speaker 2: want to start at both places. We definitely need a

571
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 2: good pipeline. We need these women who are assistant coaches

572
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 2: to believe that they're capable and they're ready to move on.

573
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,359
Speaker 2: And that is the head coach's job really to start

574
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: to prepare them to be that next assistant coach. I

575
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,879
Speaker 2: always thought that was that's part of my job, like

576
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: I want you to be a head coach. I want

577
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: people to move on, and so we need to do

578
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: that more. But I think the athletic directors for sure,

579
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,200
Speaker 2: sometimes I mean we're getting to a spot where now

580
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: there is a little bit more money. Now I'm going

581
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,479
Speaker 2: to be making money from the NCAA. Now suddenly we

582
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 2: might have some money coming in. So ads are a

583
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: little more worried about who they hire. Well, you know,

584
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 2: there was a time when they really they really didn't

585
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: take it that seriously. You know, well nobody applied, No

586
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 2: women applied, as if the football job opened and they

587
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 2: were waiting to see who was going to apply for

588
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: that job. So I think they they definitely need somebody

589
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 2: to be helping them and and I think that's I

590
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 2: think that's happening. I know a few ads that have

591
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 2: never hired a man to coach their women's team, So

592
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: there's some of them out there. We just need more.

593
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: How do you apply to someone that listened to your

594
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: h I'm not going to call it a rantom to

595
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: call it an inspired speech from a couple of years ago,

596
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: and responded to your hire only women's stance with you know,

597
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: you should hire the best person? Or what if a

598
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: men's coach said the same thing, what's your response to that? Well?

599
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 2: I think when whenever I would say to somebody, are

600
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 2: you looking to hire a woman? They would say I'm

601
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,200
Speaker 2: going to hire the best person for the job. And

602
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: I would say, great, then you're going to be hiring

603
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: a woman. And I think that that people don't again

604
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 2: they you know, they look at the interview and they're

605
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: looking at men doing certain things and we're going to

606
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 2: get better at that. We can get better at that.

607
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 2: But I think you have to go out intentionally. I

608
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: think you have to look and say it's women's basketball.

609
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 2: These women need a role model, they need somebody they

610
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: can look up to and say that's what I want

611
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: to be. There's where my path to success is going

612
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 2: to be. That's my future. I'm looking at somebody. Men

613
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: can't teach women women what it's like to be a

614
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: woman at this age, in this time of their life

615
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 2: and the things that we have to go through, and

616
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 2: the stereotypes were battling the little I call them paper

617
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: cuts that you know, we all go through, like just

618
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 2: almost daily, somebody says something, or you hear something, you

619
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: read something, and you think, oh, my gosh, how are

620
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 2: we going to deal with this? They need strong women

621
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: to be able to look up to and help them

622
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,719
Speaker 2: through so many different things that they're going through at

623
00:29:57,720 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: this age.

624
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think if you're tempted to apply the

625
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: same logic in reverse, you will be ignoring the context

626
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 1: that exists. There is not currently a vacuum of male

627
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: representation in sport. There is not a vacuum or historic

628
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: precedent of men not being in leadership positions that women

629
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: and men can see. So if you're talking about why

630
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: it's great to add a female coach to a men's team,

631
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: there are myriad ways that that is necessary and beneficial

632
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,479
Speaker 1: that don't apply in reverse the other way because they

633
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: are already seeing and exposed to a million different male

634
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,400
Speaker 1: leadership models across the space, and usually in their coaching

635
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: coming up and everywhere else. Do we hold it against

636
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: spaces that are not making enough of an effort or

637
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: at least not getting the outcome, or at least not

638
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: resulting in enough women coaches. Like I mentioned, Unrivaled is

639
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: for women by women, and yet four of the six

640
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: head coaches are men. The WNBA is getting further away

641
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: from diversity in terms of both race and gender in

642
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: terms of their head coaching. Do we hold these places

643
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: feet to the fire or do we look at it

644
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: in cycles and give them the benefit of the doubt

645
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: that that's what the interviews came up with.

646
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 2: Oh, I definitely think we should hold them accountable. You

647
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 2: look at what happened at Phoenix last year when they

648
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,959
Speaker 2: had a coaching changed. They not only hired a man

649
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: who had no experience with coaching women, but he was

650
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,720
Speaker 2: the highest bided coach in the new UNBI. Now how

651
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: is that possible? So, you know, was there a public outcry?

652
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: I didn't feel it. I mean, I think there was

653
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: a lot of things said behind closed doors, But you know,

654
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 2: and then the team was not very successful. So what

655
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 2: are we looking at now? And I think the other

656
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: problem is a lot of teams look and say, you

657
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: know what, hired a woman, tried that didn't work. Hired

658
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: a man. I mean, you know, but never say that

659
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 2: when it's a guy. You know, we are like representing

660
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: our entire gender every time we take a jump.

661
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so true. You know. One of the things

662
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 1: that was the biggest change in the makeup gender makeup

663
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: of college women's sports was money. Historically it was predominant women,

664
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: and it was back with Pat Summit had to do

665
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: the laundry and coach the team. Right, you start making money,

666
00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 1: men are like that looks nice over there, They get

667
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: hired more, and bam, all of a sudden, we have

668
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 1: all these women's teams being coached by men instead. There's

669
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: also that disparity between the professional and college ranks. Historically,

670
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: hoops coaching jobs have been more financially desirable than coaching

671
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: in the WNBA. The best college coaches are making more

672
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: money than most WNBA head coaches. USA Today reported eighteen

673
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: college coaches last year had an annual based salary of

674
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: more than a million. As far as we know, just

675
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: Nate Tibbets you just mentioned and Becky Hammond make that much.

676
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: How do you think that paid disparity plays into whether

677
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: coaches decide to coach in college or the W And

678
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 1: is that something that the W needs to address in

679
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: order to draw the kind of candidates that might go elsewhere.

680
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think the W could address that, but I

681
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,960
Speaker 2: think we're going to see very soon coaches leaving college.

682
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: We have two of them already this year leaving the

683
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 2: college game and heading to the WNBA because of n

684
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: and the transfer portal. I think, especially some of the

685
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: older coaches that are looking in saying this in the

686
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: job I signed up for, I really want to teach,

687
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 2: you know, I really feel like I'm an educator as

688
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: much as a coach. And now it's all about who's

689
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: got the most money, and that's really not what amateur

690
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,479
Speaker 2: athletics was supposed to be about. So I think we

691
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: will see some coaches moving on like the two that

692
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: did it this year, and see what kind of success

693
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 2: they had, and that could be I can see women

694
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: being driven out of the game because they don't want

695
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:35,479
Speaker 2: to deal with all the money issues, the transfer stuff.

696
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: We were talking earlier about how money might change some

697
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: of the investments and more parody across the college space.

698
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: There is a potential, too, for another distribution of money

699
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: across the college spase. The twenty twenty five NCAA Convention

700
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: is this week. Full membership is expected to vote on

701
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 1: whether to approve a women's basketball distribution fund, which is

702
00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: called the Unit. If you haven't heard of the Unit,

703
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: the context is basically, since ninety one, NCAA has paid

704
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: conferences for the games their teams play during March Madness.

705
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: So you earn a unit at about two million dollars

706
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 1: each for every game they play during the tournament, and

707
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 1: then over the next six years, the conferences decide how

708
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:13,919
Speaker 1: to allocate the money to each school. So SEC got

709
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: sixteen units last year. That's about thirty two million for

710
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 1: the men's basketball teams over the previous six years, but

711
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: no women's teams in the SEC have earned any money

712
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: from that. Even though the game Cocks made the Final

713
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,160
Speaker 1: four for four straight years won two titles, that doesn't

714
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: make the school money. Now, this is something I've railed

715
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,440
Speaker 1: against for years, because how do you incentivize investment in

716
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: your women's team if you have nothing to show for it?

717
00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 1: When they have great success, and on the men's side,

718
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: you're constantly getting paid every time your team approves. So

719
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: the NCAA membership can vote to change that this week.

720
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 1: The amount for the women's tournament is not surprisingly far

721
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: less than what the men's would make. It would be

722
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 1: about fifteen million allocated from this tournament compared to two

723
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million on the men's side. But it's

724
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,320
Speaker 1: a start. Do you think that that needs to happen?

725
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: Do we need to start showing schools if you care

726
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: about women's sports and your teams do well, it will

727
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 1: help you financially.

728
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: Absolutely, it's been a long time coming. I think Charlie

729
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 2: Baker's really done a great job as ahead of the

730
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 2: nc DOUBLEA. He is very pro women and pro equality.

731
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 2: And you're right, it's such a small number. I mean,

732
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 2: you take fifteen million. If you divide it by thirty

733
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 2: two conferences, or even even if you went to sweet sixteen,

734
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: you get a million dollars for your conference. How much

735
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 2: is these school going to gates? Some of these leagues

736
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 2: have eighteen teams, so you know, but I think it's

737
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 2: a good starting point that the other issue is how

738
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: are they gonna enhance that every year. I think there

739
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 2: was like a percentage it's going to go up four

740
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 2: percent every year or six or whatever. That's not very much.

741
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 2: I mean we need to double it every year, and

742
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: we need to try to catch up. They certainly have

743
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 2: enough money on the men's side's let's share that pot.

744
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: Well, and particularly as the numbers continue to be less

745
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 1: jarring in favor of the men. Last year, the women's

746
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: final game, the championship game, got better ratings than the men.

747
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: There are far more household names on the women's side

748
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: because as the one and done situation on the men's

749
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,560
Speaker 1: side means that a star is in and out and

750
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 1: moved on before you've had a chance to really learn

751
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: about them. On the women's side, we are getting players

752
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: like Juju Watkins, for instance, who had such a spectacular

753
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: freshman year that were sophomore year and she has already

754
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,320
Speaker 1: known and starring across the space, drawing fans, drawing interest

755
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: that should be viewed in a way that we for

756
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 1: years have ignored. On the women's side, This value that

757
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 1: they're bringing to their schools, and to do it by

758
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: virtue of tournament appearances and success just makes sense. When

759
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: you're doing it on the men's side. One last question

760
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 1: about the sort of NCAA we've seen over the last

761
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: couple of years, beginning really with the independent investigation into

762
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: the rights values of the women's tournament, where they realize

763
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 1: that they at the time said it was worth about

764
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: eighty million a year to have the rights to the

765
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: women's tournament, with upwards of one hundred and ten million

766
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:51,480
Speaker 1: in value per year, and they were being coupled with

767
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 1: all the rights to the other national titles for about

768
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: six million. It was an absolute disgrace, and for a

769
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: place that's really known to care mostly about money in

770
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: the NCUBA in a lot of ways, for them to

771
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: be losing that much money just told you how much

772
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 1: the misogyny and the antiquatedy is about the value of

773
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: women's sports were baked in that they didn't even have

774
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: a belief that they were missing out on so much.

775
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 1: So let's talk about now the idea that they are

776
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: separating the rights packages. They're actually looking at the women's

777
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 1: tournament as a money maker, they're actually looking at the

778
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,680
Speaker 1: valuation realistically. But that number, that eighty one to one

779
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 1: hundred and twelve million, that was sort of ignored instead

780
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,680
Speaker 1: they agreed to continue bundling it with other NCAA championships

781
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: as part of an eight year deal with ESPN. Nine

782
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty million dollars. Sounds like a big number,

783
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: but that's all of them. Do you think the women's

784
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 1: tournament should have just been sold separately? Do you think

785
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: they should have looked at that valuation and said, let's

786
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: actually get out there and see what we can get

787
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: for this product.

788
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 2: I think that was the hope of most of the people,

789
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 2: and the Women's Coaches Association and people familiar with what

790
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,040
Speaker 2: we're doing here. I think everybody wanted us to go out,

791
00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,840
Speaker 2: be separate, stand on our own, see what we could do.

792
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: I don't know what happened in the negotiations. Obviously it

793
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 2: did not come to fruition, but I really do have

794
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 2: faith in Charlie Baker and where he has taken women's basketball,

795
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: So I hope that in the future there was a plan.

796
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 2: But I think Camlyn Clark changed the game. I mean

797
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: she changed everything. We were playing in arenas that were

798
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 2: probably too small, you know, by the time, but you know,

799
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 2: you have to make those decisions five years out. Before

800
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 2: she even got to Iowa. The decision was made where

801
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,879
Speaker 2: they're going to play the NCAA tournament. So I think

802
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: that we were maybe a little short sighted with our vision,

803
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 2: and now I think we've seen what we can be.

804
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: I think we're finally at that point where so many

805
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: women in my generation are saying, I knew what would happen.

806
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: I'm glad it happened in my lifetime, and now let's

807
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: build on that.

808
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. I would like to see some failures in the

809
00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 1: opposite direction where they're like, oops, we went too big.

810
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: Yes we didn't sell out, like how we don't see

811
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,839
Speaker 1: that often. Usually what we see as well sold out

812
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: in twenty four hours. Oh well you could have gone

813
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 1: even bigger. Do it next time? Right? Yeah? Well, coach,

814
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,359
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you've got the ACC show, you're

815
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 1: doing some stuff ESPN. I know you have earned retirement

816
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 1: and to do nothing but eat bombbonds all day and

817
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: sit marks. But please keep your voice in these spaces.

818
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 1: Get Charlie on the phone as often as possible. Talk

819
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: to the people in decision making spaces, because your voice

820
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: is so needed, and we are at this precipice of major,

821
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 1: major change that could get much much bigger. But we

822
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: need people to not drop the ball in these opportunities,

823
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: and I trust you and I would follow you into battle,

824
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 1: so you know, make sure you're around when these conversations

825
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: are being had.

826
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 2: Thanks Sarah, I feel the same about you. I love

827
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 2: your voice. You are doing your best and we all

828
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: need to get on board.

829
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: Thanks again to coach for taking the time. If you

830
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: want to watch that great viral speech again, we'll link

831
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: to it in the show notes, as well as an

832
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 1: essay from Director of Women's Coaches and Executives at Wasserman

833
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: Emily Joe Roberts about investing in women coaches, and we'll

834
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: put the link to the co leadership essay I mentioned

835
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: from my friend Linda Lou as well. We got to

836
00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: take another quick break stick around welcome back slices. We

837
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: always love that you're listening and we love to hear

838
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: from you, so hit us up on email good game

839
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: at wondermedianetwork dot com or leave us a voicemail at

840
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 1: eight seven two two oh four point fifty seventy and

841
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. It's easy. Watch

842
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,040
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843
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Speaker 1: the California fires rating minus infinity Karma points review. Please

844
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:32,640
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845
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: LA fires. Be sure to give to links that go

846
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,200
Speaker 1: to organizations, not individuals, unless you know the person directly.

847
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 1: There are even some accounts using real victims that then

848
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: divert the money to a scammer instead. People are truly

849
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: the worst, but giving supplies and funds and ensuring that

850
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:51,239
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851
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: to counteract their evil, So do please get involved. Just

852
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: quadruple check your links and your recipients. Now's your turn,

853
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Speaker 1: rate and review. Thanks for listening, See you tomorrow. Good Game, Muffett,

854
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: Good Game, neel Ivy you gender bias. Good Game with

855
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: Sarah Spain is an iHeart women's sports production in partnership

856
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: with Deep Blue Sports and Entertainment. You can find us

857
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,239
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858
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859
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860
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Speaker 1: Jesse Katz, Jenny Kaplan, and Emily Rudder. Our editors are

861
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862
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