WEBVTT - Killer Mom Trial: Final Day Of Testimony As Experts Battle “Moral Awareness” Vs Postpartum Psychosis 0:00:02.290 --> 0:00:07.070 Hey there, folks. It is Wednesday, August 26th, and this 0:00:07.190 --> 0:00:11.340 is expected to be the final day of testimony in 0:00:11.380 --> 0:00:14.860 the Lindsay Clancy triple murder trial. And then, yes, a 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:18.920 jury is going to decide if she was criminally responsible 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.680 for killing her three young children. With that, welcome to 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:23.780 this episode of Amy and TJ Can't Believe We're Here. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 Five weeks of this. Seemed like the end kind of 0:00:26.500 --> 0:00:28.580 snuck up on us to a certain degree, but, Ro, 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:31.620 this is it. The jury's going to get... We could 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:34.720 have potentially a verdict by the end of this week. 0:00:34.780 --> 0:00:37.520 That seems hard to imagine, but you're right. 0:00:37.659 --> 0:00:38.360 It is possible. 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:43.409 The judge did predict that closing arguments will take place tomorrow, 0:00:43.450 --> 0:00:47.610 which is Thursday. And we believe that today will start 0:00:47.970 --> 0:00:52.360 off with the last prosecution rebuttal witness. Obviously, they could 0:00:52.380 --> 0:00:55.120 always call someone else, but we believe this is the 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:57.780 final witness, and the prosecution is still in the middle 0:00:57.840 --> 0:01:01.540 of questioning that witness. And then we have what's been 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:06.840 extremely entertaining and contentious, the cross-examination. 0:01:06.910 --> 0:01:07.430 And impressive. 0:01:07.610 --> 0:01:09.950 Yes, and impressive. That's a good way to put it because, look, 0:01:09.970 --> 0:01:12.869 this is what the defense needs to do. This has been, 0:01:12.910 --> 0:01:15.110 as we've talked about, a battle of the experts. And 0:01:15.150 --> 0:01:18.230 so with these rebuttal witnesses... who are one by one 0:01:18.330 --> 0:01:22.110 saying that Lindsay Clancy did not or was not suffering 0:01:22.150 --> 0:01:25.500 from postpartum psychosis. Yes, this is when the defense has 0:01:25.540 --> 0:01:30.560 to discredit these witnesses, has to question these witnesses, and 0:01:30.620 --> 0:01:34.460 at least leave an impression among jurors that they're wrong 0:01:34.780 --> 0:01:38.160 or they're confused or they don't have the expertise to 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:41.820 actually be able to weigh in on whether or not 0:01:42.180 --> 0:01:44.460 Lindsay Clancy had postpartum psychosis. Uh. 0:01:45.990 --> 0:01:49.430 I have reasonable doubt about all of their credentials and 0:01:49.550 --> 0:01:53.820 all of their ability to accurately diagnose because of his cross-examination. 0:01:53.860 --> 0:01:58.580 He had some of these folks fumbling over what they're saying. And, Robes, 0:01:58.620 --> 0:02:00.260 what I've gotten out of this, really, and I wonder 0:02:00.280 --> 0:02:03.290 what's going to happen with the jury, it's hard to 0:02:03.330 --> 0:02:06.290 just blame these experts I've seen on the stand. Robes, 0:02:06.330 --> 0:02:12.010 it sounds like the entire field of study in this needs... 0:02:12.620 --> 0:02:13.540 To get up to speed. 0:02:13.650 --> 0:02:15.810 Is limited at best. Yeah. 0:02:15.870 --> 0:02:18.250 And so how is a juror going to take it? 0:02:18.350 --> 0:02:21.090 Is it, okay, this psychosis thing is some crazy mumbo 0:02:21.130 --> 0:02:23.750 jumbo that they don't even have a lot of study on. 0:02:23.790 --> 0:02:26.130 Am I supposed to believe that? Or do I go 0:02:26.190 --> 0:02:31.290 with what is already in that Bible of options for 0:02:31.669 --> 0:02:33.940 what was bothering her? Rose, which way? Maybe they're hearing 0:02:33.970 --> 0:02:35.100 this stuff differently than we are. 0:02:35.480 --> 0:02:38.520 It could work in either direction because to your point, yes, 0:02:38.900 --> 0:02:43.639 if it's so... little studied and unknown if it's so 0:02:43.780 --> 0:02:48.779 exceptional and rare that there is no real research or 0:02:49.020 --> 0:02:53.150 literature on it to the point where the experts are saying, yeah, 0:02:53.210 --> 0:02:54.910 we just don't see it. And when we do, it 0:02:54.950 --> 0:02:58.570 doesn't present like this. That could be effective for the prosecution. 0:02:58.590 --> 0:03:00.549 That could be landing with jurors. 0:03:00.590 --> 0:03:02.740 What did you say? What did you just say there 0:03:02.760 --> 0:03:03.520 at the end? Say it again. 0:03:04.380 --> 0:03:05.980 Well, I don't know if I can repeat what I 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:06.840 just said. 0:03:06.900 --> 0:03:09.799 But the... You put me in the place, well, this 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:11.950 is a field of study that what I'm saying is, 0:03:12.139 --> 0:03:16.440 does it discredit possibly the experts? Because it seems like 0:03:16.460 --> 0:03:20.070 the entire industry doesn't know what to do. I can't 0:03:20.150 --> 0:03:22.830 trust you on psychosis. None of y'all know what to 0:03:22.870 --> 0:03:23.690 do with psychosis. 0:03:23.710 --> 0:03:26.410 Could it also make it seem like the defense is 0:03:26.570 --> 0:03:28.889 making this up, so to speak, that this isn't really 0:03:29.010 --> 0:03:32.100 something that they've ever seen before. And now they're just 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:35.980 trying to say it's something that actually isn't even really 0:03:36.060 --> 0:03:36.940 well documented. 0:03:36.970 --> 0:03:38.690 See, and there's where I go to the next part. 0:03:38.750 --> 0:03:41.070 It's not well documented, sure. So that means you don't 0:03:41.110 --> 0:03:45.180 have a lot of experts in it. This guy's seen 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:48.200 five people over a 40-year career who've had psychosis. So 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:49.800 he's the expert. That's the best we got. 0:03:50.610 --> 0:03:52.310 It could work in either direction. 0:03:52.330 --> 0:03:53.730 I wonder how it's reading for that jury. 0:03:53.810 --> 0:03:59.090 So, yeah, we began Tuesday with Dr. Kirk Heilbrunn, who 0:03:59.250 --> 0:04:03.110 is a forensic psychologist. This is the one who almost 0:04:03.170 --> 0:04:06.900 caused the mistrial the day before by bringing in mortal 0:04:06.960 --> 0:04:10.240 sin and Catholicism. But the prosecution had him back up 0:04:10.300 --> 0:04:13.960 on the stand under redirect. And I thought this was interesting. 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.600 He gave a new term that I hadn't heard before, 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:20.539 that none of us had heard before. that he believes 0:04:20.620 --> 0:04:23.980 Lindsay Clancy was not suffering from psychosis. Instead, he said 0:04:24.060 --> 0:04:29.659 she had a paratraumatic disassociation. So now we're getting all 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.080 of these scientific words that are confusing, and I don't 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:38.330 really understand at what point is this something that you 0:04:38.390 --> 0:04:42.229 suffer from that would allow you to no longer be 0:04:42.310 --> 0:04:45.210 criminally responsible. That is where the confusion is. But I 0:04:45.310 --> 0:04:49.789 did think it was effective when Dr. Heilbrunn said... that 0:04:49.810 --> 0:04:53.770 there were just so many decisions that Lindsay Clancy had 0:04:53.870 --> 0:04:57.849 to make to accomplish killing three kids and then trying 0:04:57.890 --> 0:05:01.350 to kill herself within just 18 minutes. He said she 0:05:01.410 --> 0:05:04.200 had to decide who goes first, how to do it, 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.260 why take them down to the basement. His quote was, 0:05:07.300 --> 0:05:12.420 she demonstrated such self-control throughout the day on January 24th. 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.760 She retained control as to whether, when, and how she 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.979 carried it out and including her children. I thought that 0:05:21.140 --> 0:05:21.820 was effective. 0:05:22.220 --> 0:05:26.440 Yeah, but then Reddington gets up and he completely shoots 0:05:26.500 --> 0:05:29.479 all that stuff down. Robes, we keep hearing about one 0:05:29.540 --> 0:05:32.050 expert saying if she was in psychosis, she would be 0:05:32.110 --> 0:05:33.870 able to do this or wouldn't be able to do that. 0:05:33.950 --> 0:05:35.870 And then you hear another expert come up and say, well, 0:05:35.930 --> 0:05:38.810 she can still do both. Robes, I really do not know. 0:05:39.550 --> 0:05:41.310 Who are you supposed to believe? Who do you find 0:05:41.350 --> 0:05:44.340 most credible? And I don't find... Robes, I'll be honest. 0:05:44.420 --> 0:05:46.320 I'm getting to the point I don't find anybody credible. 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:50.190 This is a very confusing line of... of study in 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.390 the medical field that is just not, we don't know 0:05:53.430 --> 0:05:56.589 what's wrong with this lady. Robes, that's my conclusion, because 0:05:56.690 --> 0:05:59.330 none of them seem to have given her great quality 0:05:59.370 --> 0:06:03.130 of care. Nobody seemed to have, to be able to 0:06:03.270 --> 0:06:07.110 sit up there definitively and say, like passionately, she was hurting, 0:06:07.130 --> 0:06:10.330 she was this, she was that. All these prosecution witnesses, Robes, 0:06:10.350 --> 0:06:12.479 you know what turned me off about Halliburton? He's looking 0:06:12.740 --> 0:06:15.980 up for the answers. He sits there oftentimes, Robes, his 0:06:16.200 --> 0:06:20.039 eyes are going up towards the ceiling. He's finding an answer. 0:06:20.339 --> 0:06:22.450 If you're sitting in there with your cancer doctor and 0:06:22.510 --> 0:06:25.330 oncologist asking about what you should do next and how 0:06:25.370 --> 0:06:27.890 do I look, how are things, and they start looking 0:06:28.010 --> 0:06:32.440 up at the ceiling going, well, you know, Robes, well, 0:06:32.460 --> 0:06:34.099 they probably wouldn't call you Robes, but you get my point. 0:06:34.850 --> 0:06:36.450 Yeah. And you know what? It's interesting you say that 0:06:36.490 --> 0:06:38.630 because I have seen that with a friend who has 0:06:38.670 --> 0:06:41.589 stage four where they're trying to figure out how to 0:06:41.630 --> 0:06:43.990 battle something they don't know how to fix. And that 0:06:44.089 --> 0:06:47.030 does seem like what has been going on or what 0:06:47.130 --> 0:06:49.170 was going on with Lindsay Clancy. I think the one 0:06:49.210 --> 0:06:51.390 thing you can say, and the defense has been trying 0:06:51.710 --> 0:06:54.590 to hammer this home, is that every single person who 0:06:54.630 --> 0:06:57.540 has testified about Lindsay Clancy has testified to her being 0:06:57.580 --> 0:07:00.950 a great mother. So then what happened? And I thought 0:07:00.990 --> 0:07:04.700 this was effective when Kevin Reddington got back up and 0:07:04.779 --> 0:07:08.820 went after Heilbrunn. I want to know what you think, 0:07:08.860 --> 0:07:11.100 if this was deliberate or if this was an honest 0:07:11.140 --> 0:07:14.860 thing that he figured out. So he gets up initially 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:19.580 to cross-examine, and he had Heilbrunn confirm that he hasn't 0:07:19.620 --> 0:07:22.880 written anything on postpartum psychosis other than something he wrote 0:07:22.900 --> 0:07:26.020 with his father five decades ago. So he sets this up. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.090 Hours go by. He keeps... cross-examining him. They take a break. 0:07:30.130 --> 0:07:33.030 He comes back and says, I need to make a correction. 0:07:34.050 --> 0:07:37.250 I went back and I looked at that paper you 0:07:37.300 --> 0:07:40.440 wrote with your father 49 years ago, and actually, it 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:46.230 wasn't about postpartum psychosis. It was about schizophrenia. Mm-hmm. Did 0:07:46.270 --> 0:07:49.130 he know that all along or did he discover that 0:07:49.150 --> 0:07:52.230 because he wanted to point out? And it was very effective. 0:07:52.730 --> 0:07:53.090 Wow. 0:07:53.230 --> 0:07:57.070 You actually haven't written anything about postpartum psychosis. 0:07:57.570 --> 0:07:59.630 I lean to it seemed in the moment because we 0:07:59.650 --> 0:08:03.920 watch Reddington a lot. It seemed like he wanted to 0:08:03.940 --> 0:08:05.820 come back and make the point. It seemed like he did. 0:08:05.980 --> 0:08:08.320 He missed it in the moment and he doesn't miss much. 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:09.740 And here it is. He didn't miss it because he 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.080 missed the first time. Make sure he came back and 0:08:11.100 --> 0:08:12.500 got it the second time. But Robes, he had spent 0:08:12.540 --> 0:08:14.180 so much time going over this guy's resume. 0:08:14.260 --> 0:08:14.460 Yeah. 0:08:14.940 --> 0:08:15.220 Showing. 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:15.460 Wow. 0:08:15.750 --> 0:08:17.890 You wrote this. You wrote this paper. You've been to 0:08:17.930 --> 0:08:20.610 this many trials. You've studied this much. You've taught this 0:08:20.630 --> 0:08:24.210 many seminars. Like, he made the guy sound so impressive. 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:31.080 And in all your impressive and studied and published resume 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:34.300 and career, you got nothing having to do with the 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.040 thing you're sitting here as an expert on. You have 0:08:37.100 --> 0:08:40.199 written nothing. And he pointed one thing out that was 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.540 45 years ago, and he was an assistant to his 0:08:42.620 --> 0:08:45.840 dad even on that one. And to have to come 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.650 back and the guy flat out said, so yeah, no, 0:08:49.750 --> 0:08:53.930 I haven't written anything. Who am I supposed to listen 0:08:53.970 --> 0:08:56.290 to if the expert, the prosecution, the only one you 0:08:56.309 --> 0:08:58.829 can find has no experience in this thing? 0:08:59.110 --> 0:09:01.979 It's kind of crazy. And the other point that Reddington 0:09:02.020 --> 0:09:05.380 made very, very well, of course, so much of their 0:09:05.420 --> 0:09:10.540 defense has been on these just massive amounts of differing 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.370 medications that doctors were just trying out and throwing at 0:09:14.410 --> 0:09:18.860 her And it led to, according to the defense, this 0:09:19.900 --> 0:09:23.110 moment where she became so psychotic, or at least these 0:09:23.150 --> 0:09:25.590 moments that led up to the killings, that the drugs 0:09:25.670 --> 0:09:29.309 and all of these drugs she was taking led to, obviously, 0:09:29.350 --> 0:09:33.480 that awful moment on January 24th. And so he was 0:09:33.540 --> 0:09:36.800 talking about all of the adverse reactions that to these drugs, 0:09:36.860 --> 0:09:40.500 including insomnia, which he did admit can lead to psychosis. 0:09:41.020 --> 0:09:45.140 If you have insomnia, it can lead to psychosis. So 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:46.720 that was a big deal that he got him to 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.540 admit that. And then he made this dramatic moment where 0:09:49.570 --> 0:09:52.250 he said, look at her, sir. Here you have Lindsay 0:09:52.270 --> 0:09:55.270 Clancy sitting there in a wheelchair. Do you believe she 0:09:55.309 --> 0:10:02.179 had adverse reactions? Of course, the prosecution objected. It was sustained. 0:10:02.660 --> 0:10:05.360 But ultimately, he was forced to answer the question. He 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.120 just had to rephrase it. And he said, yes, forced. 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.910 That goes to credibility. You're a doctor. All he's asking sometimes, Robes, 0:10:14.270 --> 0:10:17.569 and Avram Mack as well, he was a psychiatrist. 0:10:17.590 --> 0:10:21.319 This guy was a psychologist, but Avram Mack was a psychiatrist. 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:25.220 Robes, he's asking them questions. This is basic stuff. Okay, 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:30.250 there are 10 things that are considered symptoms of postpartum depression, da-da-da-da. Okay, 0:10:30.290 --> 0:10:32.470 you agree that, boom, this is one of the symptoms. 0:10:33.970 --> 0:10:36.640 That necessarily depends on the context. 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:39.840 He wouldn't say yes or no. Roe, that goes to credibility. 0:10:39.860 --> 0:10:42.420 That looks like you're trying to be a homer. You're 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:45.900 trying to help the prosecution by not even conceding a 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.130 single point. That's basic. Like, if he would have said, sir, 0:10:50.730 --> 0:10:54.550 did you notice that it's Tuesday when you came in today? Well, 0:10:54.590 --> 0:10:57.189 what do you mean? Because in some... Some time zones, 0:10:57.230 --> 0:10:58.900 and in some places of the world, it has already 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:01.839 changed over to Wednesday, where that is his answer. You idiot. 0:11:02.300 --> 0:11:03.980 I'm not calling this man an idiot, but I'm seeing 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.210 you react to people this way, Roe. And I'm sitting 0:11:06.250 --> 0:11:10.110 there reacting, what is the jury? Like, bro, come on. 0:11:11.110 --> 0:11:13.980 He did so much of that. Avril Mack did so 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.219 much of that. that I think that goes to credibility 0:11:17.260 --> 0:11:17.580 as well. 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.000 Yeah, it'll be so interesting to see how that has 0:11:21.260 --> 0:11:23.780 affected or impacted the jury. And then this final witness, 0:11:24.140 --> 0:11:26.340 who we're going to see again today because he was 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:27.100 just getting. 0:11:26.940 --> 0:11:29.000 Started, and it ended abruptly. 0:11:29.420 --> 0:11:33.250 This is a forensic psychologist, Gregory Sathoff. He is the 0:11:33.330 --> 0:11:37.850 senior psychologist for the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit, which is 0:11:37.910 --> 0:11:41.949 obviously a very famous unit. Very prestigious. He said he 0:11:41.990 --> 0:11:45.300 has treated thousands of cases of psychosis. He says he 0:11:45.340 --> 0:11:49.120 has studied postpartum psychosis. His issue, at least in terms 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.860 of the defense, he saw Lindsay for 11 hours via Zoom. 0:11:52.500 --> 0:11:56.020 So look, that is difficult to be able to assess 0:11:56.070 --> 0:11:59.030 somebody when you actually aren't even in the room with him. 0:12:00.070 --> 0:12:05.430 He was talking and testified to his belief that once again, 0:12:05.510 --> 0:12:08.010 he does not believe that she was suffering from psychosis. 0:12:08.910 --> 0:12:11.990 He was questioning the fact that she had never spoken 0:12:12.010 --> 0:12:15.650 about hearing a voice before or after. He said that's 0:12:15.700 --> 0:12:20.380 highly unusual. We've heard plenty of other prosecution witnesses testify 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:25.240 to that very thing. But there was a bizarre ending. 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:31.020 So the prosecution is asking him questions. He starts talking about... Dude. 0:12:31.620 --> 0:12:35.840 So the prosecutor asks the significance of this voice. that 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:38.600 she claimed she heard telling her to kill her kids, 0:12:39.020 --> 0:12:41.699 but not how to kill her kids. And he said 0:12:41.740 --> 0:12:45.740 he thought that was unusual, right? So he starts to say, children, 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:51.310 you know, inherently have a strong will to survive. Objection 0:12:51.410 --> 0:12:54.770 from Reddington. Sidebar. We don't know what happened. And the 0:12:54.809 --> 0:12:58.910 judge just comes back, tells the witness, get off the stand, 0:12:59.010 --> 0:13:01.980 step down, sends the jury home. Boom. Boom. 0:13:03.070 --> 0:13:04.990 Robes, I'm going to go back and watch that. I 0:13:05.010 --> 0:13:08.370 actually listened to it a couple times yesterday. He didn't 0:13:08.410 --> 0:13:10.990 seem to be answering the question, first of all, and 0:13:11.030 --> 0:13:14.840 going off in some other direction. Robes, there was an awkward, 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:21.080 extended pause. Like he was looking for words to say. No, no, no. 0:13:21.179 --> 0:13:23.220 If you were having a normal conversation with somebody and 0:13:23.260 --> 0:13:25.460 they just stopped talking for this long, you would think 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:27.570 they were having a stroke. Like, what's going on with you? 0:13:27.640 --> 0:13:27.930 What's up? 0:13:28.179 --> 0:13:29.890 It seemed to me, I could be wrong. I don't 0:13:29.910 --> 0:13:32.910 know what you're... your reaction to it was, it seemed 0:13:32.929 --> 0:13:35.820 like he was about to say something so awful and 0:13:36.000 --> 0:13:40.500 so terrible. And he was going to describe something that 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.540 nobody was prepared for in terms of these children's will 0:13:44.620 --> 0:13:47.900 to survive while their mom's trying to strangle them. I 0:13:47.940 --> 0:13:50.760 think he was so uncomfortable where he was about to 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.850 go that he was pausing to try and figure out 0:13:54.309 --> 0:13:55.210 how to say it. 0:13:55.230 --> 0:13:56.790 See, and it came right off to me like he 0:13:56.830 --> 0:13:58.689 did know what to say. He almost got lost and 0:13:58.730 --> 0:14:01.220 forgot the question and he was piecing stuff together. He 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:03.099 just sounded like, to me, again, to me, like he 0:14:03.140 --> 0:14:05.200 didn't know what he was talking about. The camera person, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:09.140 whoever's working the camera in that courtroom, good job. This 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.740 is a trained journalist, Robes, not just a photographer. This 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.340 is a photojournalist who knows where moments are happening and 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:18.870 knows where emotion is and they keep moving around because 0:14:18.890 --> 0:14:21.770 we only got one camera. At this point, this guy's 0:14:21.810 --> 0:14:26.760 giving this answer at the end, The camera pans over 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.020 to Reddington sitting in right next to Lindsay Clancy. 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:30.920 He's about to explode. 0:14:30.990 --> 0:14:33.310 But he's sitting, Robes, this is the thing. We've seen 0:14:33.330 --> 0:14:37.010 him explode. He's sitting back like just chilling. Like he's 0:14:37.070 --> 0:14:40.190 at Thanksgiving and he's full. And he's waiting on this 0:14:40.210 --> 0:14:43.290 guy to answer. And Robes, he finally just kind of 0:14:43.340 --> 0:14:46.520 rolls his eyes and just, I'm going to object. I mean, 0:14:46.540 --> 0:14:49.590 he didn't even... It was almost he was giving the 0:14:49.610 --> 0:14:53.229 guy a chance to finish, and he objected while it 0:14:53.290 --> 0:14:58.130 was quiet because the guy wasn't talking. What was happening? 0:14:58.930 --> 0:15:01.910 And the judge, did he sound pissed to you? He 0:15:01.950 --> 0:15:04.410 wasn't polite in telling the guy, you're excused for the day. 0:15:04.450 --> 0:15:07.770 Yes, he sounded pissed. That's why it seemed abrupt. Something 0:15:07.850 --> 0:15:10.600 happened in that sidebar. Don't know if we'll have any 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:13.580 indication of what that was. And perhaps when we see 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:16.520 where he picks up on his testimony today, we'll know 0:15:16.900 --> 0:15:19.250 if he is going to continue down that line. There 0:15:19.290 --> 0:15:22.930 was another point I said to you because speaking to 0:15:22.970 --> 0:15:26.610 the cameraman who's there, who has done, or I say cameraman, 0:15:26.630 --> 0:15:28.690 it could be a camera woman, but whoever's behind the 0:15:28.710 --> 0:15:30.270 camera is doing such a good job. There was a 0:15:30.330 --> 0:15:35.500 point in which Reddington was forcing some of these witnesses 0:15:35.540 --> 0:15:38.560 to talk about what a good mom Lindsay Clancy was 0:15:38.780 --> 0:15:42.780 and that every single person, they panned to Lindsay and 0:15:42.900 --> 0:15:46.140 she started to breathe so heavily. Her whole body was 0:15:46.220 --> 0:15:48.540 heaving and you could see just how important it was 0:15:48.600 --> 0:15:53.080 to her or just it affected her emotionally to hear 0:15:53.340 --> 0:15:57.060 the confirmation that she was a good mom. That, that was, 0:15:57.280 --> 0:15:59.300 that landed on me. And I wonder how often the 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:03.310 jury heard, The jurors are watching Lindsay Clancy's reaction to 0:16:03.350 --> 0:16:06.330 what's being said because it is fascinating to see and 0:16:06.370 --> 0:16:09.510 it does go into her state of mind. And I just, 0:16:09.670 --> 0:16:12.930 it's just, it's palpable. Her emotions are right there. Even 0:16:12.970 --> 0:16:15.990 though she's not speaking, you can feel it coming off 0:16:16.050 --> 0:16:17.310 her body. 0:16:18.110 --> 0:16:21.150 They see her the whole time after every answer is given. 0:16:21.190 --> 0:16:24.010 We only see it when the photographer decides it. So 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:26.420 who knows, Robes, how they've been reacting to her. It 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:28.520 could be a much different reaction in that courtroom. They 0:16:28.540 --> 0:16:30.880 could be feeling the emotion that the prosecution wants them 0:16:30.940 --> 0:16:33.450 to have, which is anger towards her for whatever. Maybe 0:16:33.490 --> 0:16:35.950 she's over there doing little drawings that we don't see. 0:16:35.990 --> 0:16:38.350 Maybe she's been smiling at times the jury didn't appreciate. 0:16:38.390 --> 0:16:38.810 Who knows? 0:16:39.670 --> 0:16:41.410 I haven't seen that yet, but in terms of the 0:16:41.450 --> 0:16:45.920 camera and catching moments and catching expressions, when we come back. 0:16:47.630 --> 0:16:52.240 The camera caught a person who was there on behalf 0:16:52.270 --> 0:16:55.360 of Vanity Fair right there in the front row alongside 0:16:55.460 --> 0:17:01.040 many other journalists, and her facial expression got her kicked out. 0:17:10.550 --> 0:17:13.610 Welcome back, everyone, to Amy and TJ. Yes, there was 0:17:13.650 --> 0:17:16.570 a bit of a sideshow in the courtroom this week. 0:17:16.930 --> 0:17:19.330 A woman who was there on behalf of Vanity Fair, 0:17:20.970 --> 0:17:24.470 the camera pans over to her and what the camera 0:17:24.590 --> 0:17:28.930 captured suddenly became viral. So it was a court TV camera. 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.500 And all of a sudden you see this row of journalists. 0:17:33.220 --> 0:17:36.130 And everyone has what you would expect, a somber look 0:17:36.170 --> 0:17:38.810 on their face. This is some of the most horrific testimony, 0:17:39.150 --> 0:17:42.270 one of the most horrific crimes that you could imagine covering. 0:17:42.890 --> 0:17:45.109 And here you see a young woman, her name is 0:17:45.230 --> 0:17:50.129 Brittany Romano, literally hamming it up with a smile. She 0:17:50.210 --> 0:17:54.080 even winks at the camera. It goes past her, comes back. 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:58.860 She's still smiling, and she's literally looking directly at the camera, 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.760 mugging for it. It was bizarre, and frankly, it was creepy. 0:18:03.330 --> 0:18:05.950 And you can only imagine the comments. You can even 0:18:05.970 --> 0:18:08.330 see the comments on the side of Court TV. There 0:18:08.410 --> 0:18:14.629 was immense online backlash, people calling her disgusting. People quickly 0:18:14.670 --> 0:18:17.300 found out it was a Vanity Fair person and started 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.960 saying cancel Vanity Fair. It got heated and it was 0:18:21.619 --> 0:18:24.020 overwhelming because people were so appalled that she could be 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.200 smiling and winking at a camera in the middle of 0:18:27.220 --> 0:18:27.700 this trial. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.119 Okay, but isn't this girl, I say this girl, this 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:33.639 grown woman, she's a friend, right? A childhood friend? 0:18:34.380 --> 0:18:39.130 So we find out, yes, that Vanity Fair had basically 0:18:39.250 --> 0:18:42.310 given her credentials, credentialed her as a journalist because they 0:18:42.369 --> 0:18:45.969 wanted her to write a personal essay about growing up 0:18:46.250 --> 0:18:48.310 with Lindsay Clancy. I've even seen a picture, the two 0:18:48.350 --> 0:18:51.050 of them childhood friends. And so they put her in 0:18:51.070 --> 0:18:54.350 the front row. to basically bear witness to the trial 0:18:54.490 --> 0:18:56.869 and then be able to write a personal essay for 0:18:56.910 --> 0:18:59.550 them afterwards about what it was like growing up with 0:18:59.590 --> 0:19:00.709 lindsey clancy. 0:19:00.770 --> 0:19:03.170 Does she have to be in there for that that's 0:19:03.260 --> 0:19:06.020 a i mean really because i've seen the whole trial 0:19:06.060 --> 0:19:09.659 too um obviously they are getting to be able to 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:11.400 give some context to it that we don't have by 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:13.939 from sitting in there but I mean, you could have 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:17.359 had a– that's a seat for– A journalist, right? I mean, fine. 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:19.920 They wanted to go about this. I guess that's fine. 0:19:19.940 --> 0:19:22.070 Yeah, so a couple of things came out of it. 0:19:22.100 --> 0:19:24.690 First of all, she lost her credentials because Vanity Fair 0:19:24.730 --> 0:19:27.669 announced on Tuesday it planned to stop working with her 0:19:27.730 --> 0:19:31.310 given all the backlash. She was asked directly about why 0:19:31.490 --> 0:19:34.850 were you smiling? Why did you do that? She said 0:19:34.890 --> 0:19:36.870 her dad had seen her in court because she'd been 0:19:36.890 --> 0:19:39.340 in court for all of these days and she would 0:19:39.540 --> 0:19:42.480 inadvertently get caught with the court TV camera. And her 0:19:42.500 --> 0:19:45.100 dad told her, stop looking so sad. You look so sad. 0:19:45.119 --> 0:19:48.770 So she said she was doing that for her dad. 0:19:49.170 --> 0:19:52.040 Like she, I, How she didn't recognize that that was 0:19:52.060 --> 0:19:53.780 going to come off the way it did. 0:19:54.140 --> 0:19:56.369 She looked awkward and uncomfortable. And somebody who's not used 0:19:56.380 --> 0:19:58.750 to being on camera is what I saw, right? How 0:19:58.770 --> 0:20:02.109 many times we've had live audiences and get ready when 0:20:02.130 --> 0:20:04.050 the camera comes, just make sure you smile. And then 0:20:04.070 --> 0:20:06.310 they come and they look, that's what it, she looked 0:20:06.330 --> 0:20:08.090 like a deer in the headlights with a camera coming 0:20:08.109 --> 0:20:08.949 by and didn't know how to look. 0:20:09.250 --> 0:20:11.620 In her defense, she's not a journalist. She has never 0:20:11.740 --> 0:20:15.100 covered a trial like this. And I think by that, 0:20:15.300 --> 0:20:19.340 perhaps alone, she wasn't prepared for the attention, for the 0:20:19.380 --> 0:20:23.810 importance of tone, that she was representing not just herself 0:20:23.890 --> 0:20:26.429 and looking at her dad, but she was representing Vanity 0:20:26.530 --> 0:20:29.570 Fair in that moment. And that just wasn't tenable for 0:20:29.609 --> 0:20:30.330 the magazine. 0:20:30.450 --> 0:20:32.629 Probably didn't make, I don't want to be, I don't 0:20:32.650 --> 0:20:34.479 know what's going on with her. And for an awkward, 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:38.520 uncomfortable moment, I don't want to. be too hard on her, 0:20:38.580 --> 0:20:40.760 Vanity Fair, why not? I mean, maybe they talk to her, 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:42.350 maybe they're getting too much heat. You said, I don't 0:20:42.369 --> 0:20:42.730 know why. 0:20:42.869 --> 0:20:43.830 Well, they put out a statement. 0:20:43.990 --> 0:20:45.030 I can read it for you. 0:20:45.070 --> 0:20:47.450 They said, we were interested in the prospect of a 0:20:47.530 --> 0:20:51.129 personal essay by Brittany Romano and her experience growing up 0:20:51.230 --> 0:20:55.460 with Lindsay Clancy. Yesterday, after clear conflicts with our editorial 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.660 standards and processes, we informed Romano that we were not 0:20:59.720 --> 0:21:02.719 moving forward with her essay and informed the court that 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:06.790 she is no longer credentialed by Vanity Fair. Okay. So 0:21:06.810 --> 0:21:08.990 they have ended their relationship with her. 0:21:09.250 --> 0:21:10.230