1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly Frye. 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:15,319 Speaker 2: And I'm Tracy V. 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:19,319 Speaker 1: Wilson, and this is a continuation of our two part 5 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:22,919 Speaker 1: episode on the invention of the MRI and the arguments 6 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: around who invented it gap And when we left off 7 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:30,159 Speaker 1: on part one, doctor Ray Damadian had filed for a 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:33,240 Speaker 1: patent on his idea to create a machine that used 9 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: nuclear magnetic resonance to capture diagnostic data by scanning a 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,279 Speaker 1: human body, but he had not yet built it. So 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 1: we're going to pick right up from that point today. 12 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: So I'm just going to tell you now, if you 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: didn't listen to part one, go back and get all 14 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: of the baseline groundwork that had to be done in 15 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: physics before we can get to this point. I would say, 16 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: we have two partters where you can get the second 17 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: part if the first part, but I. 18 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 2: Would say not, this is not one. 19 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: This is one. 20 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 2: You need part one before part two. 21 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, you do. And so then today's episode is going 22 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: to take us through the building of the first MRI machine, 23 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,639 Speaker 1: how changes were made to the methodology that that machine used, 24 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: and into the very recent past, as people have continued 25 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: to hash out who exactly should get credit for the 26 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: invention of the MRI Raymond's Madian was completely enthusiastic about 27 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: the possibilities of magnetic scanning technology, and once he had 28 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,120 Speaker 1: filed for a patent, he set out to build a 29 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: working body scanner. But this is definitely not something that 30 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: other people believed in right away. To a lot of people, 31 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: it just seemed too far beyond imagining to think there 32 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: would ever be a way to scan an entire living person. 33 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: Damadian later recounted quote, going from the first test of 34 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:55,520 Speaker 1: the experiment to construction of Indomitable and the first human scan, 35 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: we had significant numbers of people forecasting that it was 36 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 1: beyond any prospect of going from a tiny test tube 37 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: to a human body and overcoming all the technological obstacles. Then, 38 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: to be clear, this was a huge jump in how 39 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: NMR could be used. It is one thing to analyze 40 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 1: a very small sample that's been collected and can be 41 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: contained in a test tube, very different thing to analyze 42 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 1: a living human body. This like comes up all the 43 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: time in like medical developments. Where something works in a 44 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: Petri dish, will it work in a full human being. Yeah, 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: And the first big obstacle to building this machine, which 46 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: Domitian referenced in that quote by its name Indomitable, was 47 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: building a magnet big enough that a person could fit 48 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: inside of it. He and a small team eventually managed 49 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: to make one, using an estimated thirty miles of neobium 50 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: titanium wire wrapped on a cylinder to create their superconductor. 51 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: The Indomitable also so had a helium cooling system, but 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: that was problematic. It leaked. It started to become really 53 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: expensive to maintain. One estimate said that it was racking 54 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: up maintenance expenses at roughly eight thousand dollars a month, 55 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: which is an awful lot for one component of a 56 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: machine when you were trying to be a startup and 57 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: get this off the ground. This homemade MRI would look 58 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,079 Speaker 1: both familiar and a little bit alien to anyone who 59 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: has had an MRI recently. The subject was moved into 60 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: it on a platform, just like the way you would 61 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: be today, but that platform was made of wood, and 62 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: the scanny also had to wear an antenna coil that 63 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: was built onto a cardboard vest. It looks very kind 64 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: of nineteen fifty sci fi when you see pictures of 65 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,119 Speaker 1: the first people doing this. The information from that antenna 66 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: then traveled to an oscilloscope, which then parsed and fed 67 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: the information to a mini computer, and that mini computer 68 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: could take that information and generate an INMA image. 69 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 2: Once this machine was built, Tomadian was eager to be 70 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: its first test subject. That meant nobody needed to get 71 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: permission or approval from the school's administration. Had they been 72 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: looking for a volunteer from outside the team, there would 73 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 2: have been red tape involved. But once Tomaidian bravely entered 74 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: the Indomitable on May eleventh, nineteen seventy seven, nothing happened. 75 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 2: The team was completely dejected. Damadian came to the conclusion 76 00:04:29,320 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 2: that he had too much body fat insulating his tissues 77 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: and the coil they were using could not get a 78 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 2: signal through it. As they worked on the machine. Over 79 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: the next few weeks, ray Tomadian's health was closely monitored, 80 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 2: but he never showed any kind of sign of like 81 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,479 Speaker 2: side effects from this experiment. Yeah, they came to the 82 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 2: conclusion that their coil and antenna were not strong enough, 83 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 2: but they couldn't really backtrack and rebuild that part, so 84 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 2: they were just trying to figure out how they could 85 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 2: go forward, and then once the team ready for another test, 86 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:05,000 Speaker 2: it was Larry Minkoff, who was a graduate student working Underdamadian, 87 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:05,960 Speaker 2: who volunteered. 88 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: He had been the one monitoring Damadian for any possible 89 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: problems after the first test, and he was very confident 90 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: it was safe. He also was a very slender gentleman, 91 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: so they were not as worried about that issue of 92 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: body fat blocking the signal from coming through. And so 93 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: he got into the MRI and it took five hours, 94 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: but it worked. The resulting image was really rudimentary, though. 95 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: The team actually had to reconstruct it by drawing it 96 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: out with colored pencils and then to get a quick image, 97 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: and then a computer generated version was made using data 98 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: points that were collected during the scan. There were one 99 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: hundred and six data points that had to be used. 100 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: But again this is in the seventies, so when we 101 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: say computer generated, this is very different than what you 102 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: might think of today. 103 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 2: Damadian founded the Phone Arc Corporation on the heels of 104 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 2: that first successful scan, with the intent to start building 105 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: scanners to market to the medical community. He later noted 106 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: his excitement about this technology in an interview stating quote, 107 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 2: once we had been able to see that scanning the 108 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 2: human body was real and could be accomplished, you wanted 109 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 2: to be part of that. You didn't want to be 110 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 2: just a shoreline observer. As the ship sailed off into 111 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 2: the horizon, and Domadian scans were pretty incredible. This was 112 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: a huge advance over anything that had existed before. But 113 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 2: if you look at one of those early scans, even 114 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 2: after it had been rendered by a computer with all 115 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 2: of those data points, it still looks very rudimentary compared 116 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 2: to what you would see an MRI do today. The 117 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: images are very blocky with very little detail. It's kind 118 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: of like if you had an MRI done by Minecraft. 119 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: While Domitian announced after this that they had created a 120 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: way to detect cancer anywhere in the human body, detractors 121 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 2: noted that the generated image could easily be misinterpreted because 122 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 2: it was so crude, and also that a bias from 123 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: excitement over this new tech could play a part in 124 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: an incorrect interpretation. But Domanian had never really stated in 125 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: his patent or in his research notes that what he 126 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,720 Speaker 2: was after was imagery. He was after data, and then 127 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: that data could be used to create visual images. But 128 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: the biggest problem in all of it was that there 129 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 2: was this degree of guesswork involved in the whole thing. 130 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: Sometimes it wasn't really clear where precisely the information that 131 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: they were using was coming from in the human body. 132 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: So while it was possible to see that there was, 133 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 2: for example, unhealthy tissue clearly pinpointing that unhealthy tissue's location 134 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 2: was not exactly guaranteed. As Domadian and his team were 135 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 2: working on the Indomitable, another scientist, Paul Lauderber, was working 136 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: out his own way to make use of Domadian's early ideas. 137 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: Paul Lauderber was born in Sydney, Ohio, on May sixth, 138 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nine. He described his childhood home as full 139 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 2: of animals dogs and then quote birds, turtles, fish, snakes, 140 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 2: and other animals, and surrounded by outdoor places where he 141 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: played and explored. His father was an engineer who was 142 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: part owner of a company that built machinery for bakeries, 143 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 2: and his mother was a housewife. Paul attended parochial school, 144 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 2: which he later said he didn't have much memory of. 145 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 2: He had an aunt on his father's side named Anna Lauderber, 146 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: who was a teacher. She got him interested in natural history, 147 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: and he wrote later in his life that she was 148 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,439 Speaker 2: his favorite aunt. Yeah, he really makes it sound like 149 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 2: she was one of those people that really turned on 150 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 2: his brain to the idea of like exploring things you 151 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 2: see in the natural world and figuring out what they 152 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 2: are and how they work. After attending public high school, 153 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 2: Lauderber went on to Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio, 154 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 2: where he studied chemistry, although his father had really hoped 155 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 2: he would major in engineering instead, but after he got 156 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 2: his Bachelor of Science, Lauderbird described being quote tired of 157 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 2: lectures and professors and determined to go back to lab work. 158 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 2: He got a job with Dow Corning, specifically at their 159 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 2: lab at the Melon Institute, which came with the opportunity 160 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: to take graduate courses at the University of Pittsburgh for 161 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 2: free if you wanted. He did eventually take some of those. 162 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: He mentions in some of his writing that he kind 163 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 2: of got over his chagrin over academia and was like, yeah, sure, 164 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: I'll take some more classes. But it was while he 165 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: was with Dow Corning that he learned about nuclear magnetic resonance. 166 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 2: He later wrote of his early interest in NMR, quote 167 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 2: it seemed ideally suited, even at that early date, for 168 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 2: investigating the structure and electron distributions in molecules and various 169 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: physical properties of materials. Therefore, as part of my graduate 170 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 2: education at the University of Pittsburgh, in addition to a 171 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 2: literature seminar on interstellar molecules, I gave one on a 172 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 2: paper describing NMR properties of rubber before I could begin 173 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 2: a planned collaboration on the hydrogen NMR spectroscopy of silicon compounds. However, 174 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: my deferments came to an end and I was drafted 175 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 2: into the Army. When his time in the military ended, 176 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 2: he returned to the Mellon Institute, in part because they 177 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: offered to buy him an NMR machine of his own 178 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,480 Speaker 2: to work with. He immediately started research with it, starting 179 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 2: with a survey of carbon compounds. He used that work 180 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 2: to complete his PhD, which opened up more professional opportunities, 181 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: and soon he was offered an associate professor job at 182 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,720 Speaker 2: the State University of New York at Stonybrook that also 183 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: let him set up an NMR lab. Coming up, we'll 184 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 2: talk about the chance event that led Lauderbird to start 185 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 2: thinking about the use of NMR as a medical diagnostic tool. 186 00:10:56,120 --> 00:11:05,479 Speaker 2: But first we're going to pause for a sponsor break. 187 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 2: During this period in Lauderber's life, he observed a postdoc 188 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 2: named Leon Serian that was essentially recreating and repeating Ray 189 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 2: Damadian's rat tissue experiments, comparing the NMR relaxation times between 190 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 2: healthy tissues and tumorous tissues. Laiber wrote of this experience quote, 191 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 2: I was there to observe the experiments and noted that 192 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 2: large and consistent differences were observed for specimens from all 193 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: parts of the sacrificed animals, and that the experiments seemed 194 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: well done. Some individuals were speculating that similar measurements might 195 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: supplement or replace the observations of cell structure in tissues 196 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: by pathologists, but the invasive nature of the animal procedure 197 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: was distasteful to me. The data too complex and the 198 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 2: sources of differences to obscure to be relied upon for 199 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 2: medical decisions. As I pondered the problem that evening, I 200 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 2: realized that there might be a way to locate the 201 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 2: precise origins of NMR signals in complex objects, and hence 202 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: to form an image of their distributions in two or 203 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 2: even three dimensions. Building on that idea. In nineteen seventy three, 204 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: Paul Latiber coined the term zoomatography. He created a two 205 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,959 Speaker 2: dimensional image using gradients in the magnetic field, and then 206 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: he started essentially stacking the two D images that were 207 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 2: produced to create three D ones. He was solving a 208 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 2: problem that was inherent in Damadian's method of capturing data, 209 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: that problem of uncertainty regarding location of the source of 210 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: an NMR signal. Laiber wrote a paper on this method 211 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 2: of using NMR titled image Formation by Induced Local Interactions 212 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: Examples employing Nuclear magnetic resonance. His work was much more 213 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 2: focused on getting an image than just collecting data, an 214 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 2: important departure from Domadian's word work. When he submitted that 215 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 2: paper to Nature, it was initially rejected. Lauderber resubmitted with 216 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: an explanatory cover letter and was asked to edit his 217 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: paper to draw a more direct line to the possible 218 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 2: applications of his method. That year, there was also a 219 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 2: development going on across the Atlantic at the University of Nottingham. 220 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 2: Sir Peter Mansfield realized that changing the magnetic field would 221 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: reveal a chemical's anatomic structure. This was actually pretty similar 222 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 2: to the work that Lauderber was doing, but Mansfield hadn't 223 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 2: read or even known about Louderber's paper. This is kind 224 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: of a bit of an echo of the way that 225 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 2: Block and Purcel, which we talked about in the first 226 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 2: part of this were both coming to similar conclusions through 227 00:13:44,559 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 2: slightly different routes. 228 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: Three decades earlier. Mansfield had also been doing work that 229 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: shortened the length of time required for an MRI. That's 230 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: called the echo planar method today, which captured all of 231 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: the data from a two D plane after just a 232 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,560 Speaker 1: single magnet pulse, rather than just a section of a 233 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: two D plane at a time. So it wasn't like 234 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,960 Speaker 1: you had to do any image in a segment of 235 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: several pieces. You could do it all in one go. 236 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: Mansfield is credited with tightening up the mathematics needed to 237 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: significantly improve the MRI machin's data analysis in nineteen eighty 238 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: Demadian's phone Ar Corporation introduced the first commercially available MRI 239 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: machine in nineteen eighty five, just one year after the 240 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: Food and Drug Administration approved the use of MRI, phone 241 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: R produced a mobile version of an MRI machine. This 242 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,360 Speaker 1: variation enabled MRIs to be performed on patients when moving 243 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: them was too risky. They can be used in ambulances 244 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: and emergency scenarios outside of a hospital, like when there's 245 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: a disaster or another event. Almost as soon as MRI 246 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: machines started to be adopted by the medical community, the 247 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: term nuclear magnetic resonance shifted and started to be called 248 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: magnetic resonance imaging. This, according to a New York Times 249 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: write up, got away from the potentially problematic nuclear association. 250 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: This is not what it meant, really, but it could 251 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: be associated with like nuclear power and nuclear weapons, all 252 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: of this going on during the Cold War right. 253 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: The use of imaging also meant that this folded in 254 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: nicely to the field of radiology. 255 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 1: Also in nineteen eighty five, doctor Paul C. Lauderber was 256 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: one of the recipients of the LASCAR Medical Research Award, 257 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 1: which since nineteen forty five has recognized what are believed 258 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: to be the greatest contributions to medical science each year. 259 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: The LASCAR Awards are sometimes called the American Nobels, and 260 00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: they are considered to be to some degree a predictor 261 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: of Nobel candidates. When Lauderber won his, he was recognized 262 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: alongside the three man team of doctor Caesar Milstein, doctor 263 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: George JF. Koehler, and doctor Michael Potter for their work 264 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: that they had done in antibodies. And in addition to 265 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: those four men already mentioned, nineteen eighty five is also 266 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: the year the doctor Henry J. Heimlich received a LASCAR 267 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: Award for his food ejection technique. So it's kind of 268 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: an interesting time when all of these pieces of medical 269 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: science are being developed at the same moment. 270 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I've thought about doing a Heimlich episode, but number one, 271 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 2: that's like a bit more recent nineteen eighty five than 272 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: normal than we typically cover. And then also I just 273 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: I didn't quite come together anyway. But even in the 274 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,400 Speaker 2: New York Times write up about Latiber's award, they mentioned 275 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 2: doctor Domadian stating quote, while many specialists give doctor Latderber 276 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 2: chief credit for introducing NMR as a diagnostic tool, doctor 277 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 2: Raymond Damadian of the Downstate Medical Center of the State 278 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 2: University of New York has developed an alternate approach called 279 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: field focused NMR or phone R. Its imaging method differs 280 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: from that in the widely used devices based. 281 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: On doctor Lauderber's work. This reference to Domdian having done 282 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: work in the field that didn't receive the award is 283 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: a little bit of a harbinger of something that would 284 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: happen twenty years later, which we will talk about in detail. 285 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, both Domadian and Lauderber were honored 286 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: with the National Medal of Technology for their work on 287 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: MRI tech. This entire debate about all of these issues 288 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: and their two different approaches is complicated by the fact 289 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: that Fonar actually adopted Luderber's method of capturing images. Domadian 290 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:37,480 Speaker 1: still claimed ownership of the idea of the machine, but 291 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: Louderber's work had pretty clearly made the machine more useful 292 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: and marketable. Doctor Raymond Domadian was also inducted into the 293 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: National Inventors Hall of Fame in nineteen eighty nine. 294 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 2: Almost as soon as Foonar introduced its machines, other companies 295 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,720 Speaker 2: started working on their own, but Raymond Damadian was very, 296 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 2: very protective of his patents and he went after anyone 297 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 2: he believed was infringing on them. Hitachi, Johnson and Johnson, Siemens, 298 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 2: Phillips Electronics, and General Electric were all companies that developed 299 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: MRI machines, and Fonar and Damadian went after all of them. 300 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 2: Many of these cases dragged on for years. Eventually, all 301 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 2: of them but one came to out of court settlements, 302 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: with Domadian and his company receiving some sort of payout, 303 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: although the details of those settlements remained private. The one 304 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 2: holdout was General Electric, which claimed that it had been 305 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 2: developing its imaging concepts quote from the beginning, whatever that meant. 306 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: I read that statement and I was like, what's the beginningning. 307 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 2: A major setback happened in nineteen eighty six, though, when 308 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:54,159 Speaker 2: a judgment in favor of Domadian in a dispute with 309 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:57,800 Speaker 2: Johnson and Johnson was overturned in federal court. 310 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: Then in nineteen ninety seven, when Foennar and General Electric 311 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: were still locked in a legal battle about patent rights, 312 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: and it had gone to the US Court of Appeals 313 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: for the Federal Circuit. On June thirtieth of that year, 314 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 1: the appeal did not rule in favor of General Electric, 315 00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: and ultimately GE was found to be in violation of 316 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: Domadian's patent rights and was ordered to pay one hundred 317 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 1: and twenty eight million. This was a huge deal, and 318 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: it was huge news at the time. This bolstered Domadian's 319 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: company in two ways. For one, it meant they got 320 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: a massive financial bump when they really needed it. The 321 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 1: company had never really been profitable, and the work that 322 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,199 Speaker 1: they were doing to develop new versions of MRIs that 323 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: they had on the drawing board was very expensive, so 324 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 1: they really needed that financial backing. But it also cemented 325 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 1: Damadian's status as the originator of the idea, even if 326 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: the methodology of it had shifted in the wake of 327 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 1: Lauderber's work, and Lauderber hadn't successfully patented any of his developments. 328 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: He had tried and had some rejected, and he was 329 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 1: working from within an academic institution that thought that pursuing 330 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: those patents would be. 331 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,199 Speaker 2: More trouble than it was worth. He told The New 332 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 2: York Times in nineteen ninety seven, quote, I was working 333 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: on images, so the question of the relationship between relaxation 334 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: times and cancer was irrelevant. He also told the press 335 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: that he had tried to work things out with Domadian, 336 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 2: but that Ray had not wanted to because he felt 337 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 2: his claim was clearly supported and there was nothing to 338 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 2: work out. 339 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely a weird vibe that we could talk 340 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: about in behind the scenes, where Lauderber is trying to 341 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: just be like I don't know. I'm cool with it, 342 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: Like Ray was really focused on this thing and I wasn't, 343 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: and I to this moment don't really know how I 344 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: feel about any of it, but we'll talk about it. 345 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: That nineteen ninety seven ruling led also to a lot 346 00:20:56,960 --> 00:20:59,479 Speaker 1: of press for Domadian, and he talked about how he 347 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 1: was going to span the business with that money, working 348 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: on making MRIs less expensive for both hospitals to acquire 349 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: and for patients to have done their numbers in there. 350 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: That we'll talk about him behind the scenes because I 351 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: kind of cracked up again having had one of these recently. 352 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: Did not get cheaper than what he was talking about then, 353 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: for sure. He also talked a lot about patent law, 354 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: which really became a passion for him. He was adamant 355 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: when it came to the importance of defending patents. He 356 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,879 Speaker 1: even went to Congress to convince members of Congress not 357 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,880 Speaker 1: to weaken patent laws. He told the New York Times quote, 358 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: with their marketing and financing strength, big companies don't need 359 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: to risk doing things first. For entrepreneurs to keep taking risks, 360 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 1: they need temporary exclusive rights to their inventions. And in 361 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: two thousand and one, interview, Jamadian noted, quote, curiosity is 362 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 1: a major driving force, and the same delight that a 363 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: child has at seeing something new for the first time. 364 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: He was always there for someone in a scientific career. 365 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: When I got into the scientific arena and saw the 366 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: prospect of developing a new kind of medical machine, I 367 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,959 Speaker 1: enjoyed the process of waiting right into it and getting 368 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 1: directly involved in building such a thing. At that point, 369 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: as company was working to innovate the MRI even further 370 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: by creating a machine that allowed the patient to sit upright. 371 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,919 Speaker 1: Everyone at this point in the early two thousands seemed 372 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: to recognize that the MRI had changed medical science really significantly, 373 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: but it had never been recognized with a Nobel Prize. 374 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: And we're going to pause here for a sponsor break, 375 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: and when we come back, we will talk about some 376 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: of the reasons that scientists thought this was the case, 377 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: and we'll also talk about the fallout that happened after 378 00:22:46,680 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: a Nobel Prize was finally awarded for MRI technology in 379 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and two. An editorial in The Wall Street 380 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,959 Speaker 1: Journal by Cameron Stracker noted that it was odd that 381 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: the MRI, which everyone lauded as such a huge step 382 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: forward in medical imaging that even men of science referred 383 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: to it as miraculous, had never been the subject of 384 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 1: a Nobel prize. Stracker's write up quotes University of Oregon 385 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,919 Speaker 1: chemistry professor Hayes Griffiths, who said, quote, MRI is the 386 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: perfect candidate for the Nobel It's something that has improved 387 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,639 Speaker 1: and advanced medicine in a way no one can argue with. 388 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: The article then quotes nineteen eighty one Nobel Laureate in 389 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: physics Nicholas Blombergen as saying, quote, what bothers me is 390 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: that the institute in Stockholm has not yet awarded the 391 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: prize for this great discovery. I believe this is partly 392 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: due to controversy over Damadian's role. The National Academy of 393 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 1: Sciences had the same year Damadian gave his quote about 394 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: curiosity and not wanting to be a mere observer. To 395 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,880 Speaker 1: this thrilling News Science published a commission paper that had 396 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: largely written Damadian out of the MRI story, that claimed 397 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,719 Speaker 1: that his MRI methodology had not been reliable enough before 398 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: Paul Lauderber got involved with the technology. Finally, the Nobel 399 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: Committee recognized the importance of the MRI, but it caused 400 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: a lot of strife in doing so. In two thousand 401 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: and three, Sir Peter Mansfield and Paul C. Lauderber shared 402 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: a Nobel Prize for Contribution to Physiology and Medicine, and 403 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,679 Speaker 1: this was controversial. They had built on work that Demadian 404 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: had done and he felt like he had been left 405 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: out of his rightful credit. In a statement to the press, 406 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: Demadian said of the Nobel prize, quote, I believed that 407 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: I deserved one. I came up with the idea for 408 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: the MRI. I built the first machine, and if there 409 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: was to be a Nobel Prize for medicine for the MRI, 410 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: I thought it should go to me. 411 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,400 Speaker 2: On December ninth, two thousand and three, Raymond did Cadian 412 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 2: took out huge ads in the New York Times and 413 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 2: The Washington Post. The copy read, in part quote, the 414 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: prize pretends to honor discoveries concerning the development of magnetic 415 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,680 Speaker 2: resonance imaging. Yet the Nobel Committee for Physiology or Medicine 416 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:20,199 Speaker 2: decided to exclude from recognition the foundational scientific history of 417 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: magnetic resonance imaging, scientific history that has been before the 418 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: committee during the many years doctor Raymond Damadian has been 419 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: nominated for the prize for the MRI I. They have 420 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,880 Speaker 2: chosen instead to award the prize to two men who 421 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 2: contributed nothing more than improved ways to image the MR 422 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 2: signals from cancer tissue and healthy tissue that Raymond Damadian discovered. 423 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 2: He reportedly spent more than two hundred thousand dollars on 424 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 2: his print campaign in the hopes that the Nobel Committee 425 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,679 Speaker 2: would amend their decision. There was even a mail in 426 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 2: coupon at the bottom of the ad so that readers 427 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: of the paper could clip it out and mail their 428 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,720 Speaker 2: support of Domadian too the Nobel Committee. When it came 429 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 2: apparent that the effort was fruitless, his statement to the 430 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 2: press became quote, I've had time to reflect, and I 431 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 2: must say now that I have learnt how easily the 432 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,679 Speaker 2: Nobel can be manipulated. I have lost almost all respect 433 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: for the prize. I can even tell you that I 434 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,000 Speaker 2: am not sure I want it anymore. 435 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: One of the rumors that popped up as this controversy 436 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: boiled over was that it was Damadian's religious beliefs that 437 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: had held him back from receiving the award. Damidian was 438 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: a very devout Christian and he was very vocal about 439 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,200 Speaker 1: being a creation scientist who believed in the biblical story 440 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: of God creating Adam and Eve. Another rumor was that 441 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: Lauderber had been the decider and that he had made 442 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: clear that he would not share this honor with Damadian. 443 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: But in the end, though all of this remains strictly rumor, 444 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: neither of those stories has ever been substantiated. The Nobel 445 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: Committee chairman at the time, doctor Hans Ringerts, made a 446 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: statement to the press that there were no obstacles to 447 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 1: Domadian being nominated for the Nobel Prize in the future. 448 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 2: In the midst of all the argument over credit, another 449 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 2: completely unexpected person popped up to claim that he too 450 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 2: had the idea to use magnetic imaging, and that he 451 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,240 Speaker 2: had it before all the other contenders. This claim was 452 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,159 Speaker 2: made public in the journal Nature in November two thousand 453 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,680 Speaker 2: and three under the headline Russian claims first in magnetic imaging. 454 00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: The write up is by Brian McWilliams, but the inventor 455 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 2: at the center of it is Vladislav Ivanov. According to 456 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 2: the rite up, Ivanov was serving as a lieutenant in 457 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 2: the Red Army when he was giving the task of 458 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: using NMR for aircraft navigation. They were using it to 459 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 2: image water, and Ivanov thought that it could be used 460 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 2: to image the human body. He's quoted in the article 461 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,040 Speaker 2: saying quote, I figured that because a person is made 462 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 2: up primarily of water, the same method could be used 463 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 2: in research on living organisms. The water inside a person 464 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 2: could be used to give a signal showing what exists 465 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 2: or is located inside and there is according to the article, 466 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 2: a document from nineteen sixty that Ivanov filed with the 467 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 2: USSR State Committee for Inventions and Discovery titled method of 468 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 2: Examination of the Internal Structure of Material Bodies that laid 469 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 2: out this whole idea. It's kind of the same idea 470 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:25,640 Speaker 2: as like a patent application. But Ivanov wasn't especially. 471 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,679 Speaker 1: Worried about trying to legally challenge anyone over any of this. 472 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: His idea had not been understood or approved by the 473 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: administration in Soviet Russia, who thought that his filing it 474 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: was actually evidence that the lieutenant just had too much 475 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: free time. Ivanov also seemed amused with Damadian and thought 476 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: it was difficult, too impossible to contain things like MRI technology, 477 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: noting quote, Besides, there are always mistakes when you have 478 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: major advances in science, you can't keep an idea in 479 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: one place. They have their own momentum. 480 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: Doctor Damadian died just two years ago at the age 481 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 2: of eighty six, on August third, twenty twenty two, in Woodbray, 482 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: New York, of cardiac arrest. His New York Times obituary 483 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 2: walked through all of the many legal and professional battles 484 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 2: that were involved in his work in MRI technology. His company, Foonar, 485 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: is still in business, though its focus has shifted more 486 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 2: to managing scanning centers and offering service on existing tech. 487 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 2: If you visit the company website, it says the landing 488 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 2: page the inventor of MR scanning. 489 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 1: Because Nobel documents used to determine the awarding of prizes 490 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: are kept confidential for fifty years, we will have to 491 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: wait until twenty fifty three to know why the committee 492 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: chose to honor Lauderber and Mansfield over Rayeymadian. 493 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 2: But perhaps the bigger question is not who should get 494 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,360 Speaker 2: credit for this invention, but how and why concepts of 495 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:55,760 Speaker 2: invention and ownership are established and whether they need to 496 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,959 Speaker 2: be re examined. As a coda, here's a quote from 497 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 2: a paper written I meet presad titled the Amorphous Anatomy 498 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 2: of an Invention the Case of Magnetic Resonance Imaging, which 499 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: was published in the Social Studies of Science in two 500 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: thousand and seven. 501 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: Quote. 502 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: In this paper, I analyze the priority dispute between Damadian 503 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: and Lauderber over the invention of MRI. My attempt to 504 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 2: clarify the debate, however, does not intend to assign priority 505 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 2: to one of the scientists. Instead, through an analysis of 506 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,200 Speaker 2: this priority dispute, I will problematize notions of discovery and invention. 507 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 2: I will show how the process of laying claim to 508 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,280 Speaker 2: an invention or discovery is negotiated, even while the outcomes 509 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 2: of the negotiations remain open ended. In particular, I will 510 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 2: throw light on interplay between the institution of authorship and 511 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 2: technoscientific practices in the process of defining a particular technoscientific 512 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: event as a discovery or an invention, and particular scientists 513 00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 2: as discoverer or inventor. 514 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,600 Speaker 1: I really love that quote when I was looking at 515 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: that paper, because it really did open my mind to like, oh, gosh, 516 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: I hadn't you kind of instinctively know yes, when someone 517 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: patents a thing, they don't really know what it could become. 518 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:17,719 Speaker 1: But this really did focus that concept to me of 519 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: like people are arguing over their claims to stuff when 520 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: they didn't know what they were really making a claim on. 521 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: I understand the financial aspect and capitalism of all of it, 522 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: but it still made me go like, oh, science, science 523 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 1: has this one big problem where we don't know what's 524 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: going to happen. The unpredictability of the future leads to 525 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: some big problems with this. So that is I'm sure 526 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 1: if you are a person that works in MRI tech, 527 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: you're like, you left out a bunch of stuff. Even 528 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: with two episodes. Yeah, I know, there's a lot to 529 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: win on there, so hopefully we hit the most important parts. 530 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: I just thought it was a really fascinating examination of 531 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 1: the way that these things can explode and become important 532 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: but also be something that people grapple with for a 533 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,960 Speaker 1: long time. I have a fun listener email about another 534 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: person who is famous for his I don't know that 535 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: invention is quite the right way before his product. This 536 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 1: is from our listener Ellen, who writes, Hi, Tracy and Holly. 537 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: Sorry no cute animals, but thank you for the popcorn podcast. 538 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: I met Orville Reddenbacher in Valpraiso, Indiana. I attended Valpraso 539 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: University in the early nineteen eighties and the town had 540 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: a popcorn festival in early September. His factory was about 541 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: five miles away, and on days that the company tested 542 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 1: the popcorn, you could get a large garbage bag of 543 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:47,200 Speaker 1: popcorn for five dollars. Unless it was for a school, church, 544 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: or youth group. It was free for the groups. Groups 545 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: on campus would sell unpop popcorn to raise money. I 546 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: love this. I kind of love that they just listen. 547 00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: Orvil Reddenbaker is one of those dudes who always seemed 548 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 1: really cool and nice and like a just a good 549 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: kind person. And I love that this kind of holds 550 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: that up. Like his company was like free popcorn for 551 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,240 Speaker 1: anyone without wants, which, let me tell you, I would 552 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: be driving up with my car every day they did 553 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: a test. Same give them twenty bucks, fill that car 554 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: with popcorn, get out of dodge and eat myself silly. 555 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for telling us about that, because that's a 556 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: really wonderful story, and I'm a little jealous. You got 557 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: to meet him. If you would like to write to us, 558 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 1: you can do so at History podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. 559 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: You can also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't 560 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: done that already at his Easiest Pie, on the iHeartRadio app, 561 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: or anywhere you listen to your favorite shows. 562 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: Stuff you Missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. 563 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 564 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.