1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Uh. Today's episode maybe of 4 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,639 Speaker 1: a special interest to our one and only super producer, 5 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: Mr Max Williams, who is, by far out of the 6 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: three of us, the biggest sports fan I'm Ben, Noel. 7 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,720 Speaker 1: Would you agree that max Is is probably leading the 8 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: charge when it comes to sports? Well, yeah, Max is 9 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: what you might call a real sport head, and you're 10 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: looking quite as sporting today to Ben, there you what 11 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: you might call a bit of a sport head going 12 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: on with that dapper ball cap situation. Oh, thank you, yes, yes, 13 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 1: this is uh, this is just one of those hats 14 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: I ended up with. It's kind of like that time. 15 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,559 Speaker 1: No you remember when I just all of a sudden 16 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: had an ancient Steeler's hat and I just decided to 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: wear that on our road rally documentary. Um, that was 18 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: that was cool. But we learned firsthand people in Pennsylvania 19 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: have feelings about the Steelers. Yeah, they have Steeler feelings 20 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: hashtag stealer feelings. Ben. Today's episode surrounds a part of 21 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: the country that, if I'm not mistaken. You've spent a 22 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: little bit of time, man. Uh. Yet today is uh. 23 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: Today does take us to Central America, and as you know, 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: I lived for a time in Guatemala. This episode takes 25 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: us to the countries of Honduras and El Salvador. Now, 26 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: these countries themselves are not the biggest countries in the world. 27 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:04,800 Speaker 1: El Salvador is about the size of Wales, for instance. Uh. 28 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty nine, it had a population of just 29 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: around three million people, and especially in the sixties, inequality, 30 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: social inequality was pretty severe, and so a small group 31 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: of people controlled, you know, most of the land, most 32 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: of the companies, and so on. We're doing myth busting 33 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: today without I guess we should give the log line first. 34 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: Here's the idea, here's the claim. In nineteen sixty nine, 35 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: El Salvador and Honduras, these relatively small but beautiful countries, 36 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: got in a war for four days, something called the 37 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: Football War. Yeah, maybe not a full fledged out and 38 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 1: out war, definitely a conflict, to be sure. But the 39 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: question is did this micro war get started as a 40 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: result of sports differences? Yeah? And that's so No, that's 41 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: what we have to establish because if you are not 42 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: familiar with this part of the world that can sound there. 43 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: I say it ridiculous to say that people might get 44 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: in conflicts over football or what we in the US 45 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: called soccer. I mean here, the worst you're gonna get 46 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,240 Speaker 1: is maybe people setting some cars on fire, you know, 47 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: looting some targets or whatever to get their frustrations out 48 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: for their team. Uh, not prevailing in a in a 49 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: big game. Uh. You're gonna hear me using terms like 50 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: team and big game because I want to sound like 51 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: I'm part of the club, even though I'm definitely not. 52 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: I think that will become apparent. Ben. I know you're 53 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: not exactly the biggest sport head in the world, but 54 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,680 Speaker 1: you are an expert in international affairs. So I think 55 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: between myself, you and Max, we we kind of make 56 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: one whole person here. Yeah, we've got the max not 57 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 1: of approval because Max you already you already know where 58 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: we're going with part of this. Soccer fans especially can 59 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: have a reputation. Football matters to people in a very big, deep, 60 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: abiding way across the world. Right, It's it's serious, serious 61 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: stuff and just like you said, no, this can lead 62 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: to some acts of violence. So here's what happens. We 63 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: said that El Salvador at this time in nineteen sixty 64 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: nine kind of small population of three million. Most of 65 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,799 Speaker 1: the country is controlled by this small group of elites. 66 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,239 Speaker 1: Would you call those landed gentry perhaps exactly? Yes, yeah, 67 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: just so. And Honduras also just as a small number 68 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: of people controlling it socially. But Honduras is five times 69 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: the size of El Salvador, but it only has a 70 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: population of two point three million, So it's more land, 71 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: fewer people. And this means that if you live in 72 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:59,600 Speaker 1: El Salvador, right and you want to have more farmland, 73 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna move to Honduras. There's just more space there. 74 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 1: Uh So these people from El Salvador are moving to 75 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: Honduras in droves, specifically to work for US fruit companies, 76 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: which are kind of supervillains in Latin America. Absolutely, we 77 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: know other stories that have revolved around, say, what is 78 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,240 Speaker 1: it the Chiquita banana company. They essentially were responsible for 79 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: qu in Guatemala. Yes, in and uh also but through 80 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: companies also got up to some dirt in Hawaii. Um, 81 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: we have a pretty great stuff they don't want you 82 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: to know episode about the overthrow of the Kingdom of Hawaii. 83 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: We can say it's great because we are actually not 84 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,600 Speaker 1: on that episode. Our our friends of the show, Dana 85 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: Schwartz and super producer Alexis good name dot Holiday Jackson 86 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: actually did that. They gave us a break. Definitely put 87 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: that one in your back pocket for after you finished 88 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,599 Speaker 1: listening to this episode. Um, here's the thing, this conflict 89 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: between you mentioned that the you know, the the land 90 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 1: mass um disparity I guess between the two and the 91 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: fact that a lot of folks were moving from El 92 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: Salvador to Honduras. Honduran President Oswaldo Lopez Arellano didn't really 93 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 1: care for this um, this interloping, let's call it, and 94 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: he started to actually deport thousands of Salvadoran's back to 95 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: their home country. Why was that, Ben, Well, it's because 96 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: there was a there was a political tension going on. 97 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: The ruling class of El Salvador had been pretty much 98 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: on board with people leaving the country because with fewer 99 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: people in the country, there were also fewer demands for 100 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: more quality. Right, but if you're in Honduras, imagine you 101 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: were a person living in Honduras and you are not 102 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: one of the ruling elites. You are fighting for your 103 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 1: own land rights, you are fighting for more access to opportunity, 104 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden you're flooded with immigrants. This 105 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: just makes your resentment grow. So the Honduran government at 106 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: the time, under President Ariano, as you said, the the 107 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: government at the time says, Okay, we're gonna try to 108 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: make things cool with the lower classes. Uh. And the 109 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: way we're gonna do it is we're gonna pass this 110 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: law about land reform. But the land reform law does 111 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: not apply to those elites. It does not apply to 112 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: the US fruit companies. It focuses on the land settled 113 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: by those folks from El Salvador. Because essentially, these Salvadorans 114 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: are coming in and staking their claim on Honduran land, 115 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: and this is no longer sitting well with the government 116 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: and the citizens of Honduras. They're basically saying, hey, get 117 00:07:57,040 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: off my law. This is for us, not for you. Right. Yeah, 118 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: that's pretty on base. I would say. We know that 119 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: by late nineteen sixty nine, the number of Salvadorans living 120 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: in Honduras had actually ballooned up to three hundred and 121 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: fifty thousands. You can read an excellent BBC article about 122 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: this that relates relates the broad strokes of the story. 123 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: It's by Toby Luckhurst. It's called Honduras versus El Salvador, 124 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: the football match that kicked off the war. A little 125 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: bit of spoiler in the title there, but not for long. Well, 126 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: we'll get to this point. So no, like you said, tensions, 127 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: you know, and the Honduran government is sort of selling 128 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: the people a false bill of goods because they're they're 129 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: focusing on these migrants, but they're not focusing on the 130 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: problems in Honduras that we're existing far before mass immigration. Instead, 131 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: we see formation of political committees, organizations, things that would 132 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: pret hacked the interest of the ruling elite in Honduras. 133 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: The folks who own most of the land forms something 134 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: called the National Federation of Farmers and Livestock Farmers of Honduras. 135 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,080 Speaker 1: Sounds nice, Yeah, next you name. The whole goal is 136 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: to just keep those people wealthy. By the way, Yeah, 137 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: that's sort of the status quo. Keep the rich rich 138 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,439 Speaker 1: and let them get richer and don't worry so much 139 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: about the lower class. And if you do, it tends 140 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: to be a bit of a ticking a box kind 141 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: of um, you know, hollow gesture. Um. There are other 142 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: things that we're leading to the simmering tension because there 143 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: were some territories or some areas that were in dispute 144 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 1: there and the Gulf of Fonseka, which is a little 145 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: body of water on the Pacific coast. This is actually 146 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: shared a number of islands rather in this gulf are 147 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: shared between the two countries and Nicaragua, which is never 148 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: the best situation because you know, ownership becomes part of 149 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: the equation Asian pretty quickly, especially when people start you 150 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: know settling and building lives for themselves and and uh 151 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: in ways of generating income. So essentially, this war was 152 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: the real the simmering tensions that would ultimately erupt, um 153 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: were as a result of these land disputes and the 154 00:10:19,160 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 1: you know finite availability of land. Yeah. Yeah, And when 155 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: the Honduran president makes this decision to kick out these 156 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: folks from El Salvador, he does so by taking the 157 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: land that they have staked their claim to. And also 158 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 1: he turned the population, the average Honduran against these El 159 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: Salvadorian immigrants. Yeah. They were like, um, harassing them. There 160 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: were pretty regular beatings and abuses, you know, physical altercations. 161 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: Um these folks were not being treated very well, and 162 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: then to boot they were deported back to El Salvador, 163 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: where the president um Fidel Sanchez Hernandez and his government 164 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: had a really hard time dealing with this influx of 165 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: folks coming back to his country after they had kind of, 166 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: you know, adapted to their being less folks there exactly. 167 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: So now you have if you're this, if you're a 168 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: person in this situation, now you have literally no place 169 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: to go. Right, the place you lived has been taken 170 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: by one government or the other. Right, Honduras is saying 171 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: Honduras for Honduran's and the government of El Salvador is saying, ah, sorry, 172 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: this is not to keep your seat warm situation. So 173 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: to be very clear that there's a technical term for this, 174 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: it sucks and this you can read this. You can 175 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: read some more details about this in a book called 176 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 1: The One hundred Hour War by Dan Haydorn, which covers 177 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: covers the blow by blow of what happens here. So, 178 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: in the midst of all this stuff happening and these 179 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: people moving back and forth across the border trying to 180 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: find a better life for themselves, there is a football match. 181 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 1: There's a soccer game. And we've talked in the past 182 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: about I can't remember which showed this was on. We've 183 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: talked in the past about how I personally believe that 184 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: sports are often a substitute for war in in some ways, 185 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: and religion, or maybe not a substitute for religion, but 186 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: they can take on the same kind of evangelism in 187 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: some ways that religion has, where folks are so behind 188 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,760 Speaker 1: their team and they're the only team you know, in 189 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 1: the world as far as they're concerning. Every other team 190 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: is against them in the same way that folks, you know, 191 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: kind of treat their particular God or their particular faith. Yeah, 192 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:10,520 Speaker 1: and that's because people have such strong identification with their 193 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: you know, their favorite sports teams, and in this part 194 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: of the world, that kind of association is sort of 195 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:20,440 Speaker 1: times ten what you would encounter here in the US. 196 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: Oh and for the record, folks, Atlanta does have a 197 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: pretty great soccer team of its own. I don't know 198 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: if you guys have gone to the games, but even 199 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: if you don't care for soccer or football, uh, it's 200 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,840 Speaker 1: it's it's great to go, it's great energy, it's cool 201 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: to hang. It seems like a good time. I've not 202 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: been yet, um, but I really wanted. They also do 203 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: this really cool thing with the local art community where 204 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: every every game they have like a Man of the 205 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: Game or something like that and a electric guitar that's 206 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: painted by a local artist they choose for each one 207 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: is presented to Man of the Match, that's what it's called, 208 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: is presented to whoever the like m v P of 209 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: that particular game. Um, was awesome. And our buddy Nick Benson, 210 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: excellent artist and good friend of the show, has done 211 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: one of those form Oh that's right he has. Yeah, 212 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,560 Speaker 1: shout out to Nick. He is a good friend of ours. 213 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: He also does all the art for Run the Jewels, 214 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: which is weird to know someone. Well, we have weird jobs, 215 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: so I guess his job is not that weird. And 216 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: all the art for a really cool upcoming secret project 217 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: of another thing that we're involved in. Yes, more to 218 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 1: be revealed on that one. It's been so hard not 219 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: to talk about it, but all will be revealed in 220 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: the meantime. As you can tell, fraught political tensions between 221 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: Honduras and Al Salvador mean that people are looking for 222 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 1: an outlet. Yeah, and these fraud political tensions are exacerbated 223 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: by the media, um, which I'm not I don't know, Ben, 224 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: you might be able to speak a little bit more 225 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: about the relationship between the media and the government in 226 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: Central America. But it strikes, you know, in the research 227 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: for this, that maybe the government has a little bit 228 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: more control over the media in these countries than maybe 229 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,320 Speaker 1: we see here. What do you think, um, at this time, Yeah, 230 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: the media is heavily controlled by the government, unless it's 231 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: oppositional media. I would say, even more importantly, it's controlled 232 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: by the people who own the outlets, right, they own 233 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: the means of information dissemination. And there are those folks, 234 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: by the way, are the same folks who own like 235 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: the land, so they they have the tools to make 236 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: this propaganda campaign to whip up the masses against each other, 237 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 1: instead of asking why so few people control so much. 238 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: That's that's the question that often gets dodged right before 239 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: we sound too revolutionary about it. Anyway, everybody is pumped, 240 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: they're so stoked about this soccer game, this football game, 241 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: and these countries have similar cultures by the way, they 242 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: speak the same language. Most people have the same or 243 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: similar religious beliefs, and when they meet on the football 244 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: field pitch. Excuse me, sorry, Banks. Everything I know about 245 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: soccer I learned from the wonderful television series um So 246 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: that at last, so I know that it's all about qualifying. 247 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: That's the term they use, qualifying. And so you know, 248 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventy FIFA World Cup just a big deal. 249 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 1: Apparently it's coming up that June. Uh and the teams 250 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: of Honduras and El Salvador are in competition to qualify 251 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: for the nineteen seventy FIFA World Cup. And this is 252 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: a three game series. Um the first game, Honduras beats 253 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: El Salvador in a one to zero victory, and then 254 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: on June five, in a game played in San Salvador, 255 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: El Salvador wins three nil. As they would say in 256 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 1: UK football, what a ludicrous display, they would say, an 257 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,199 Speaker 1: I T crowd, Which is a great episode. It's a 258 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: good way to just if you're in if you're in 259 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: the UK, just say what a ludicrous display, and then 260 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,360 Speaker 1: you're like you can just kind of fake your way 261 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: through the rest of the conversation at the right uh So, 262 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: I do want to go back to setting the scene though, 263 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: so really, for a lot of people, if you just 264 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: saw these teams meet. The people on those teams would 265 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: seem very similar. The only difference would appear to be 266 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: their dress, right, their uniforms. Uh, they're wearing the colors 267 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: of their national flags. So El Salvador is wearing blue 268 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: with white trim. Honduras wears white trimmed with royal blue. 269 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: So they're kind of in verses of each other, which 270 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: I think is interesting. Yeah, it's interesting, right. And both 271 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: of these games that you mentioned, with the one oh 272 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,120 Speaker 1: to Honduras and the three oh three Nils El Salvador, 273 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 1: both of these where games that occurred like amid near riots, 274 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:10,640 Speaker 1: things that were pretty much riots were happening. There were 275 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: a lot of very vociferous, vehement displays of national pride, 276 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: like picture people you know, uh screaming the anthem wave 277 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: in the flag and then like throwing bottles and saying, 278 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: you know, well, I dare someone from Honduras or El 279 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 1: Salvador depending to come around here this, you know this 280 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,239 Speaker 1: Honduras for Honduran's kind of vibe. And we all know 281 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:42,359 Speaker 1: the problem with Determined the UK's soccer hooligans, right, they 282 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: have a bit of a reputation that kind of behavior 283 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: has occurring here as well. And what you see is 284 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 1: that thousands of soccer supporters, several thousand from El Salvador, 285 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: had traveled seven hundred miles northwest for the final match. 286 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: This is very much a ted Lasso moment, right, This 287 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: was the so the two teams are tied, and they 288 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,040 Speaker 1: have this tiebreaker game, this third game, that's where everyone 289 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: is going. It's held in Mexico and the stadium is huge. 290 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,959 Speaker 1: You can fit like a hundred thousand people in there. Uh, 291 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: and these folks from El Salvador, mostly from El Salvador, 292 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 1: fill in the bottom sort of fifteen thousand seats of 293 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 1: the stadium. And then back home, people in El Salvador 294 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: are tuned into the radio on the edge of their seats. 295 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: The world is watching and listening to see what happens, 296 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: to see which country wins the game, because in a way, psychologically, 297 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: that feels like they're winning the conflict over this immigration problem. 298 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: That's right, and this was evident even back in El 299 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 1: Salvador where Salvadoran's We're hanging out and having parties, dancing 300 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: even next to their radios and celebrating with this early win. 301 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,240 Speaker 1: Um s I dot Com has a fabulous article that 302 00:20:11,320 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: kind of looks at this more through the sports angle. Um, 303 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: written by Michael McKnight. Um. You can check that out 304 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: Soccer War nothing more. Really great title there, Um, So dude, 305 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: check that one out too for a little more of 306 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: the sports angle. And at the same time, the armies 307 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 1: of both of these nations, which are not that far 308 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: apart from one another, after all, right next to each other, um, 309 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: are lining the borders, carrying weapons and wearing identical uniforms. 310 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: Why is that? Why do they have the same uniforms? Ben, 311 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: Because again it's very similar. That's the that's the strange. 312 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: That's one of the strange parts of this story. These 313 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,679 Speaker 1: are two different nations, to be clear, but culturally, in 314 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: many many ways, these populations are similar. And I was 315 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: thinking a bit of a way for us to kind 316 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 1: of contextualize what happens next. So we're we're in June, 317 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,959 Speaker 1: right their neck and neck, their neck and neck. In 318 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: terms of qualifying, there is a third and final qualifying 319 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: match that is to take place in Mexico City. Yes, 320 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: and on the day of the match, El Salvador, the 321 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: government of El Salvador severs all diplomatic ties with Honduras. 322 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 1: This is so here here's my comparison. So this is 323 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: like um for baseball fans. I'm gonna lean on you 324 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: a bit for this mix. Baseball fans. Um, you're familiar 325 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: with like the World Series, right, and there are what 326 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:52,960 Speaker 1: what's the most popular Canadian baseball team in your mind, Max, 327 00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: I think it's probably a hockey team. Well, the Toronto 328 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: Blue Jays that the last standing one off the Montreal 329 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: exposed Okay, didn't exist in the Toronto Blue Okay. So 330 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 1: imagine there is a game between like, let's just say, 331 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: the Yankees and the Blue Jays, and on the eve 332 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: of that game, Canada severs all diplomatic ties with the US. 333 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: That sounds a little weird, right, but that's what happens. 334 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: A little weird, easy to interpret as a political flex 335 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: h football adjacent yes, yeah, And the government said, we're 336 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: not really doing this because of the football game. We're 337 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: doing this because Honduras has not taken any action to 338 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: punish all those people who are committing crimes against Salvadoran immigrants, 339 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: all those beatings, all of those abuses that we talked about. 340 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: They are claiming that this act was as a direct 341 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: result of the government of Honduras not doing anything about 342 00:22:54,119 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: those actions. And apparently this treatment accelerated as the games 343 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: went on, and the problem got so bad that the 344 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: interior ministers said around twelve thousand Salvadorans had left Honduras 345 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: after that second soccer match because of the wild persecution 346 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: that's occurring. UH. The day after the game, you will 347 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: see a US news agency called u p I. UH. 348 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: They published a story with the headline soccer wall one 349 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: by El Salvador three to two. That's right, it's a 350 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: legacy UM media outlet United Press International. Don't really hear 351 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: that one thrown around quite as much anymore, UM, but 352 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: they are still around. But you got to imagine, ben, 353 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: I mean, if the Hondurans were messing with the Salvadorans 354 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 1: before this football adjacent tension erupted, I can imagine that 355 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 1: it really would have been exacerbated by this. Yeah, and 356 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: there's a question here about how much of a role 357 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: the media had to play in this. According to that 358 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: up I report, at the third game, there were almost 359 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,879 Speaker 1: two thousand Mexican police who were there to stop the 360 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: violence as Salvadorans are chanting murderers, murderers from the stands, 361 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: and so the world media started to think this was 362 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: a war that was due to soccer. But a lot 363 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: of experts looking back say, this war would have happened 364 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,200 Speaker 1: or this conflict would have happened regardless of the game. 365 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: It just maybe spent things along well. And it didn't 366 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 1: help much that U p I coined the soccer war 367 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: in their headlines. They literally referred to it as soccer 368 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: War one by El Salvador three to two. Uh So 369 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 1: that was the outcome of that game there in Mexico City. 370 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 1: People lost their minds. These borders skirmishes got worse and worse, 371 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 1: like you said, in the days following that upset, and 372 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: as result, the border between El Salvador and Honduras was closed, 373 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: with these skirmish is taking place more and more frequently. Yeah, 374 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: they had also seen this in the cards early on. 375 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: They felt they felt a growing tension in the wind. 376 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: As a result, both governments have been actively increasing their 377 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: military might for a while. At the time, there was 378 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: a U S arms embargoes, so they couldn't buy all 379 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 1: the toys they wanted, but they did find other ways 380 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,879 Speaker 1: of getting hardware, and a lot of it. Like they 381 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,560 Speaker 1: were purchasing old World War two stuff, right, like vintage 382 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: fighter planes like F for U Corsairs, P fifty one 383 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: Mustangs and all of that. Where do they get these 384 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: marvelous toys or whatever it was that the joker said 385 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:51,679 Speaker 1: in Batman um from private individuals who had these in 386 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 1: their collection, which I guess is a thing. Um. By 387 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,640 Speaker 1: the way, great reporting on this from thought code dot com. 388 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: Kennedy Hickman wrote a really great p for them called 389 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: Latin America the Football War also highly recommend giving that 390 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: one a full read. So, like we said, things are escalating. 391 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,399 Speaker 1: Uh and early in the morning on July four, the 392 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: air force of El Salvador started doing strikes against Honduras, 393 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: hitting these targets. And this is when things kind of 394 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 1: get past the point of no return border skirmishes. Okay, 395 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,159 Speaker 1: maybe things can settle down a little bit. Once you 396 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: start actively, you know, doing air attacks, air strikes on 397 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: a neighboring country, it's a little tough to roll that back. Yeah, exactly. 398 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: The troops are also on the move. They're going after 399 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:54,240 Speaker 1: some islands that are owned by Honduras, and they get 400 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: into conflicts with the Army of Honduras. But the Army 401 00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,679 Speaker 1: of Honduras is smaller, and the salve door In troops 402 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: as a result, are able to advance pretty steadily. On 403 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,440 Speaker 1: the flip side, the Salvadoran air force got absolutely waxed 404 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,479 Speaker 1: by the Honduran air force. So think of it like 405 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: El Salvador is starting to control the land and Honduras 406 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: is starting to control the sky. This is where we 407 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: introduce a Polish journalist. I'd like to apologize for pronunciation, 408 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: Justine Rezard Kapusynski. I think that's close. Yeah, excellent job. Yeah, 409 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: thank you man. So this is one of the reasons 410 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: is important. This journalist is one of the few foreign 411 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: correspondence who is on the ground when this conflict begins. 412 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: That's right. And according to some of the initial reports 413 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: that he filed, he described the conflict in the Honduran capital, 414 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 1: which by the way, is one of my favorite named 415 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: capitals in the whole world, to goose Galpa. It is 416 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: fun to say he reported the conflict there using the 417 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:05,480 Speaker 1: country's only teleprinter machine. And this is after President Lopez 418 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,679 Speaker 1: Ariano communicated with this ambassador in the United States about 419 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: the invasion. Yeah, and he would go on to write 420 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: a book called The Soccer War which is kind of 421 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: a recollection of his life and times during that conflict. 422 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 1: And in this book, if you read it, you'll see weird, 423 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 1: interesting references. You get a real snapshot of the tension 424 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,679 Speaker 1: and the effectiveness of the propaganda that was being spread. 425 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: He would see graffiti that says, nobody beats Honduras and 426 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: we shall avenge three nil. It's interesting to wonder what 427 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: ted Lasso would have made of this. Oh, he would 428 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: have said some pithy you know, aphorism of some kind. 429 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: Everyone would have shaken hands and gone home, you know, 430 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, back in back in the States. Uh, we'd 431 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: like to say it takes a little shake and to 432 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: make milk shake. It's true. It's true, and I believe um. 433 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: So it's it's understandable why this football war soccer war 434 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,600 Speaker 1: narrative was so easily fed. I mean, you mentioned, you know, 435 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,760 Speaker 1: the graffiti, you know, the whole we shall avenge a 436 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: narrative specifically referencing the soccer game. So it's definitely it's 437 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: kind of a chicken or egg question. I mean, I 438 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: kind of think that the egg lies with the media. 439 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: But also, I mean, these tensions were real, separate from 440 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: the soccer match. And then the soccer match just kind 441 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: of added fuel to those already simmering fires of resentment. 442 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,960 Speaker 1: So Honduran aircraft hit back and hit El Salvador oil facilities, 443 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: UM and other depots, which caused some real problems in 444 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 1: the supply chain and getting you know, much needed fuel 445 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,440 Speaker 1: to the front lines. So their network of infrastructure was 446 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: really really badly UM affect, and the Salvadorian offensive started 447 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 1: to kind of slow UM and eventually they couldn't go 448 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: on right. Yeah, they got bogged down. And during this time, 449 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 1: on July fift the o AS Organization of American States, 450 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: they get everybody together, they convene in emergency session and 451 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: they agree El Salvador needs to withdraw from Honduras. The 452 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: government of El Salvador there in the capital soun Salvador 453 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: Uh to say, we're not going to do this. We're 454 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: not getting out, we're not stopping the beef, We're not 455 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: squashing the beef or squashing the soccer ball here unless 456 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:47,120 Speaker 1: you can promise that there will be reparations paid to 457 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 1: all the Salvadorans who were displaced, and additionally, any of 458 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: our folks who are living in Honduras, they can't be 459 00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: harmed and it's true. I mean, the the actions taken 460 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: against sell the Doorans at this time it was pretty 461 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: pretty gruesome. So the o A s says, Okay, let's 462 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: work through this, and they are able to just three 463 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: days later officially arrange a ceasefire on July eighth, and 464 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: on July the ceasefire actually goes into place. Yeah, I 465 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: was just thinking about this kind of hardback the episode 466 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: we just did. But if you think about this, you 467 00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: know this nineteen seventy, nineteen sixty nine. This is this 468 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,280 Speaker 1: is a straight like land grab. That's exactly what you know. 469 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of other things, but it's 470 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: basically about land. This is against the Kelly brand packed, 471 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: isn't it. I think it is. I think there is 472 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: basis for you know, outside organizations a being like, hey, 473 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: you guys can't cause this war because you could argue 474 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: this war is about, you know, the resentments all that, 475 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: but that all springs from the fact that El Salvador 476 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: doesn't have enough land for their people. I mean, the 477 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: reason why is debatable, but but it also shows how 478 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: pacts like that are ultimately kind of toothless and difficult 479 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: to enforce because it's hard to pinpoint, or it's very 480 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: easy to dance around what the actual root cause of 481 00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: the war is, you know what I mean, Like you 482 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: can just kind of say, oh, no, it's it's about 483 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: this other thing. It's land grab Why what's that? And 484 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: this is a situation where sanctions actually seemed to do 485 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: some good because initially the government val Salvador refused to 486 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: leave um. Only when threatened with sanctions from the OAS 487 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: did they decide to do something and and actually withdraw. 488 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: And when that ceasefire went into effect, thousands of people 489 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: were already dead, at least three thousand UM, most of 490 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: whom were Hunduran nationals and civilians. They weren't you know, 491 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: they weren't soldiers, these folks, and many many thousands more 492 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,080 Speaker 1: were this place, they had to evacuate where they were 493 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: living due to the fighting or the encroachment of the 494 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: Salvadoran army. Eventually, like you said, international pressure, the threat 495 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: of sanctions, these factors caused El Salvador to withdraw its 496 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: forces from Honduras by August. And if we look at 497 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: the aftermath, we see that thousands of people were killed 498 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: on both sides, the Salvador and military did pretty well, 499 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,520 Speaker 1: but the conflict was a lose lose situation for both countries. 500 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 1: As a result of the fighting, around a hundred thirty 501 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: thousand Salvador and immigrants are trying to get back home 502 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: to El Salvador and they arrive in an already overpopulated country. 503 00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 1: Like you said, no, Um, and like you said, Max, 504 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,600 Speaker 1: it's a kind of a fight for land. And because 505 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: they added so many more people to the population, this 506 00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: destabilized the economy. Like things go horribly wrong. That's the takeaway. 507 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: The went horribly wrong, and a lot of people remains 508 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: convinced this was about a soccer game for a long time. Yeah. 509 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: That BBC piece that you mentioned, Um has some really 510 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:16,160 Speaker 1: illuminating quotes from Dr mo Hume, excellent name, the lecturer 511 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:20,400 Speaker 1: at the University of Glasgow, and she referred to the 512 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: domestic problems back in El Salvador that caused the war 513 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: in the first place, again citing that small land owning 514 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,399 Speaker 1: gentry and the large number of farmers who had been 515 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 1: dispossessed of their land, and said that this is something 516 00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 1: that would have repercussions, you know, well into the future 517 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: for maybe decades. UM. The larger socioeconomic issues are really 518 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 1: the whole deal here, and the football aspect was just 519 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: kind of like the powder keg moment. But to your point, 520 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: and to the point of many other experts, it didn't 521 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: even need that particular powder keg. It just maid for 522 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: an interesting frame story, you know, for the press exactly. 523 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 1: And Professor Hume also makes an excellent point when she 524 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,959 Speaker 1: says this powder keg of tension and inequality that led 525 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: to the football war would ultimately cause the civil War 526 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:22,279 Speaker 1: in El Salvador just a decade later, nineteen seventy nine. 527 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 1: All the way up to and during that war, and 528 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: estimated seventy thousand people lost their lives. So this is 529 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,200 Speaker 1: a very serious thing. It's so interesting. I mean, you 530 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,640 Speaker 1: think of the idea of a civil war, and in 531 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: the United States, obviously seems like something of the distant past. 532 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: But no civil wars continue across the world, uh, to 533 00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,719 Speaker 1: this day. And to this day there's still summering resentment 534 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: between El Salvador and Honduras, and there are continuously border 535 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,799 Speaker 1: disputes between the two nations. Yes, and uh, you know, 536 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: I love the point you're making about civil wars. A 537 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: lot of people aren't aware that The Guatemalan Civil War 538 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: went from nineteen sixty to nineteen nine six, so it 539 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,360 Speaker 1: was still very recent when I lived there. This gives 540 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 1: us an instructive look at how war is sold to 541 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: people right and about how easy it can be to 542 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: obscucate the actual causes of a conflict. Uh. There is 543 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:28,239 Speaker 1: a guy we want to shout out. He is the 544 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,440 Speaker 1: man who scored the winning goal for El Salvador. His 545 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: name Mauricio Rodriguez Peopo to his friends, and Max with 546 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: the facts came through and verified that Mr Rodriguez is alive. 547 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: He is now seventy six, and he pretty much seems 548 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: to agree with the three of us when he says, 549 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,600 Speaker 1: what I am sure of is that the authorities and 550 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 1: politicians made use of our sports victory to glorify El 551 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: Salvador's image. I like the phrase sports victory. Why I do? 552 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: It sounds like it sounds like a translation from something 553 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: in an Ikea sty It does a little bit, but 554 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: I think it it hits the mark. Um and and 555 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: and like you said, I mean, Mauricio Peopo Rerodriguez really 556 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: sums the whole thing up beautifully, saying that for me, 557 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,240 Speaker 1: that goal will always be a source of sporting pride, 558 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 1: despite the spin the government put on it. Spin is 559 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:27,520 Speaker 1: that thing you do in soccer. Can you put some 560 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,839 Speaker 1: spin on the ball? I imagine you can't. You gotta 561 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 1: Bennett like Beckham be like, how do you think you 562 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: call it putting English on it? What have you heard 563 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: that phrase? That's from Billiards right. It's when you hit 564 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,880 Speaker 1: it on the top or the bottom, I believe, and 565 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: it gives that you can do a backspin. There's different 566 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: types of English. But I'm gonna yeah, I think you definitely, 567 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: I'm gonna make my own sport. I think. I think 568 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: that's the time has come. I think so we need 569 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: a new sport, Ben, we don't have enough. Do you 570 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,319 Speaker 1: want help? Ben? Like? So it actually, like you know, 571 00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: works well and stuff. Yeah, you know what, it's fired, 572 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: Max shots fired. That just taught me how to play 573 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: some dice games. So I'll follow. Oh yeah, just Max. 574 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: Max is an expert on game theory, which is a 575 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: really important aspect of designing any sort of game, whether 576 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: it be a NERD related or or sport related. And 577 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:20,719 Speaker 1: you know, despite all of this fallout and all of 578 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,439 Speaker 1: this Association football war and all of that stuff soccer war. 579 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:30,040 Speaker 1: Rodriguez said that the El Salvador team had immense respect 580 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: for their Honduran counterparts. He had this to say on 581 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,400 Speaker 1: the matter, and this is a quote from that BBC 582 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,919 Speaker 1: piece that we've referenced. Neither from the Honduras players nor 583 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,720 Speaker 1: from our side, were the games between enemies, but between 584 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: sports rivals. You know, that's awesome and I think that 585 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: is a good place for us to land the episode 586 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 1: today because you will hear that from a lot of athletes. 587 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,120 Speaker 1: They'll say, you know, actually, I I really like these 588 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,440 Speaker 1: other people you know who are competing with against me 589 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,839 Speaker 1: in the luge or what have you, because they're they're 590 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: kind of it's called the pitch, but not the louse. No, 591 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: I'm talking about the sport of these you're kidding. Yeah, 592 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: Max is called and lose? Is it called the tube? 593 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: The slide? The ice? The ice slide? I think I 594 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,320 Speaker 1: think it actually is slide. That makes sense because you slide, 595 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 1: Uh okay, it's like an ice and crusted water slide. Yeah, yeah, 596 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: which you know every kid's dream, right. But here we 597 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: end the story, and this is one of those tales 598 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: that is illuminating, right, and it's important to remember this 599 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:45,240 Speaker 1: in the modern day, because we do see a lot 600 00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:51,399 Speaker 1: of reporting that appears to determine the causes for a conflict, right, 601 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: and you always have to ask yourself what's going on? 602 00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: You know, even today, if you look at the situation 603 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 1: between NATO and Russia, you'll see that Russian domestic media 604 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,760 Speaker 1: has a very different spin on things compared to media 605 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: in Ukraine or media in Europe. So we all have 606 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: to work together to figure out what the truth is. 607 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because we're getting around lunch time now, 608 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 1: but I am so excited to go see in Atlanta 609 00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: United game with you guys. The Mercedes Benz Stadium is 610 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: pretty swell. The first time I went there was abandoned. 611 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: I went there to get vaccinated, But that place is huge. 612 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: Do you think Kanye West is still living in the 613 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:37,879 Speaker 1: janitor's quarters. I hope so, I hope he is. He's 614 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: like the Phantom of the Opera. I thought he wasn't 615 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: Kanye ay more. I thought he was just yet he's 616 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: always Kanye to me. I I refused to fall in 617 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 1: line with that. It's absurdain. Maybe it's a thing where 618 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:49,799 Speaker 1: it's like, if you're this kind of a southern thing, 619 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,359 Speaker 1: but maybe it's the thing where it's your full name 620 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,440 Speaker 1: if you're in trouble. So he's like yeah, unless he 621 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 1: tries to start a war over soccer, and then we 622 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: have to be like Kanye more like boo am I 623 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:06,160 Speaker 1: right right, And so with that, thank you of course 624 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:11,920 Speaker 1: for tuning in. One note about the region of Central America, 625 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: the countries of Al Salvador and Honduras and all adjacent countries. 626 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 1: They are beautiful, beautiful places. Visit if you get a chance, 627 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:26,879 Speaker 1: be safe and tell us of your adventures. We can't 628 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,719 Speaker 1: wait to hear from you. Thanks as always to our 629 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: super producer, Mr Max Williams uh and now our go 630 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,560 Speaker 1: to sports correspondent. And thanks of course to Alex Williams 631 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: who composed this slapping soundtrack Eat your heart Out yea. 632 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,759 Speaker 1: Thanks to the Christopher aciotas he was, Jeff Code here 633 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: in spirit, Jonathan Strickland, the quizter surely he'll be darkening 634 00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,520 Speaker 1: our digital doorstep in the near future. And thanks to 635 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 1: you Ben for getting sport you with us today. Thanks 636 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: to you know, and I just I want to say, 637 00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:00,319 Speaker 1: you know, if we were the Spice Girls, I don't 638 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: know where we go with this, It's pretty clear Max 639 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: would be Sporty Spice, right. I feel like Sporty Spice 640 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,000 Speaker 1: is the most underrated. Spice Girl needs to give more love. 641 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: Let's do that. Let's honor her memory. I think she's 642 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: still alive, but you know that, maybe not in Spice 643 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,240 Speaker 1: Girl form. Through super producer Max Williams, we love you, buddy, 644 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:25,440 Speaker 1: See you next time. Flix. For more podcasts for my 645 00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,160 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 646 00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.