1 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: the Very unprofessional podcast, whereby we talk through some of 3 00:00:13,119 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: the big changes and transitions of our twenties and what 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: they mean for our psychology. Chow bon jour. How are 5 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: we all? Lockdown? Week five? Baby, just add an extension 6 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 1: announced this morning, So here we are thriving. Thank you 7 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: very much Andrew bar keeping us safe as always. But 8 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 1: I hope you guys are all doing well wherever you 9 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: may be listening Lockdown or not. Hope the sun is shining, 10 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: that you're being COVID safe obviously, and that something amazing 11 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: has happened to you this week. I'm just going to 12 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: jump right into it. This topic, the friendship breakup, has 13 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: been on my mind, taunting my dreams quite a bit 14 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: for the past month or so, but I haven't really 15 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: been able to work up the courage to record it 16 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: or research it. I think for a few reasons. Firstly, 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 1: it's insanely personal, and although I've talked about, you know, 18 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: things like unrequited love and hookups and heartbreak on this podcast, 19 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:23,759 Speaker 1: this is the first episode where it would just be 20 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: entirely natural for me to come off looking like the 21 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: bad guy, which my ego obviously wasn't too fond of. 22 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: And secondly, I didn't really want to do any injustice 23 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: or harm to anyone who I was once friends with, 24 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: who I have quote unquote broken up with, which will 25 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: kind of discuss later on. And I think like another 26 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: reason I was kind of hesitant about recording this is 27 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: it's kind of painful to look back at experiences like that, 28 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: and I just don't think I was really in the 29 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: right headspace to like dig deep into past friendships which 30 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:01,120 Speaker 1: were insanely meaningful for me, but which have now faded, fizzled, 31 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,160 Speaker 1: we've gone our separate ways. But yeah, I've made peace 32 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: with all those things. I talked to my therapist about it. 33 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: Shout out Josie God, I love her so much of 34 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: the best, and she said it was a good idea, 35 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,519 Speaker 1: perhaps even a little bit healing if I came at 36 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 1: it with a wise mind, which is her favorite term. 37 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: So here we are, recording in my car, yet again, 38 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: ready to bury some hatches, discuss the psychology behind friendship 39 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: breakups and the fizzle, and why that age old saying 40 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,679 Speaker 1: is true. You know, if you're not losing friends, you're 41 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: not growing up. So strap in for a great episode. 42 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: I do just want to say before we get into it, 43 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: this is not some like personal rant about people who 44 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: have left my life. No bad feelings will be shared here. 45 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: I just think it's a really interesting topic and researching 46 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: this has caused me to reflect on some of my 47 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: own friendship breakups, and I think throughout this episode I 48 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: was particularly reflecting on three friendships in particular that have 49 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: all ended in the past year, and I just thought 50 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: there was heaps to learn in this. Often I think 51 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: uncharted to rain. Yeah, and I think I just received 52 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: a lot of personal closure looking back at some of 53 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: those friendships, thinking about what I could have done differently, 54 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: or maybe what I didn't need to do, you know. Yeah, 55 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 1: I would explain kind of my thinking behind it a 56 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: little bit later. Yeah, And, like I said, a lot 57 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: of personal closure that I would just love to share. 58 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: So in researching this episode, I read an article that 59 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: had probably one of the best titles, and it really 60 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:38,240 Speaker 1: I think inspired how where I kind of took this 61 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: episode the form that it took. So if you want 62 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 1: to read it, its title was friendship Breakups the most 63 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: untold love story And isn't that the truth? Isn't that 64 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: just a big cup of truth. Friendship breakups or fizzles, 65 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: They're just as serious and can create the same feelings 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: and reactions as normal breakups. You know, the loneliness, guilt, 67 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: and awkwardness, the grief. Like grief can be a huge 68 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: component that I think is often underappreciated and not really 69 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: too often spoken about. And I think friendships also contain 70 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: just as much love as romantic relationships can, and appreciation 71 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: as well if you do them right, of course, and 72 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: heaps of studies have proven time and time again that 73 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: friendships are one of the most important ways to enrich 74 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 1: your life. They improve your well being, they aid in 75 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: the stable release of dopamine and serotonin, and they can 76 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: help you cope with trauma, cope with things like your 77 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: parents are like friendships are just as important as a 78 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: as a part of your social network as a relationship is. 79 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: So I think that yeah, they're just as important, but 80 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: they aren't always held to the same esteem. And I 81 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: think this all has to do with how our society 82 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:58,080 Speaker 1: creates like an internal hierarchy within our minds of which 83 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,599 Speaker 1: relationships are more important and us the level of emotions 84 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: we're able to feel in those relationships and in response 85 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: to them. So bear with me here, But in this hierarchy, 86 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: friendships are not given nearly as much as importance I 87 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: think as familial or intimate relationships. So you know, friends 88 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: are just seen as more plentiful and replaceable, which I 89 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: think is entirely incorrect. You know, good friendships, stable friendships, 90 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: and lasting friendships are incredibly, incredibly rare, But we have 91 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: been conditioned to place more emphasis on finding and keeping 92 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: intimate partners, and there's a greater expectation of suffering in 93 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: grief when romantic relationships end, whereas that kind of reaction 94 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 1: over friendships I don't think is as normalized or expected, 95 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: which is a huge problem as to why we don't 96 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 1: really talk about what it kind of feels like to 97 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: go through a painful end with a friend. I think 98 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: people and people often underestimate what a big deal it 99 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: is for a friendship to end, and they can just 100 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: be you know, these breakups of sorts can be just 101 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: as uncomfortable and sad as romantic endings. You know, I 102 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,039 Speaker 1: kind of I don't really want to stress this point, 103 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: but I just think it's so important, Like you can 104 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: share a similar level of intimacy memory is vulnerability with 105 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: someone you will never romantic or sexual with, and when 106 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: those relationships come to an end, there is an emptiness 107 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: in their place, because no one is entirely replaceable, and 108 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: every individual brings something entirely different to your life, even 109 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: if that friendship is no longer fruitful or successful. I 110 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: had this actually with someone like thinking of them. I 111 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: had this or someone at the end of last year, 112 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 1: and I think as much as it was important to 113 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: no longer speak to this friend and essentially cut them off, 114 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: there are times that I really miss them and I 115 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: missed their presence because we did share a lot of 116 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: memories and a lot of personal vulnerability. So it was 117 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: a hard conundrum, and I've have had quite a few 118 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: moments I won't lie where I've wanted to reach out, 119 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: where I've wanted to message them, rekindle the conversation, talk 120 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 1: it kind of about what went wrong, But I just 121 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: realized that it is for the best that we're no 122 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: longer in each other's lives, and as far as I 123 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 1: can see, they're really happy and so am I. So 124 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: I think it's just best to leave it be, even 125 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: though it's really fucking awkward. When I run into them 126 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: in Dixon Woolley's. Yeah, maybe if they're listening to this, 127 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: they'll know it's about them. But yeah, I think no 128 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: one's entirely replaceable, even when you do know that those 129 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: friendships aren't meant to last. And like I said, as 130 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,080 Speaker 1: important as friendships are, romantic relationships tend to get all 131 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: the glory. Meanwhile, the platonic ones, they're really undervalued, I think. 132 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: And I read an excellent chapter of this book. It's 133 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: called The Friendship Fix. Would definitely recommend it if you're 134 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: into this kind of literature, and it's written by this psychologist. 135 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 1: Her name is doctor Andrew Bonnar, and this is what 136 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: she kind of explains. Because there is not the weighty 137 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: expectation of monogamy which is often associated with romantic relationships, 138 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,400 Speaker 1: people have a much harder time ending friendships. So this 139 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: was a bit confusing when I first read it, and 140 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: I did think it was like a bit of a stretch, 141 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: But this is how she explains it, and it makes 142 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: a lot more sense when you read more of the book. So, 143 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 1: when you're in a relationship with someone and you're in 144 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: a monogamous relationship, a close relationship, you have to break 145 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: up with a partner in order to move on to 146 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: someone new, So you know, you have to break up 147 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: with them. It's an action that has to happen for 148 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: you to move on to any relationship. But in terms 149 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: of a friendship, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from 150 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: avoiding a friendship breakup, indefinitely, putting off the confrontation and 151 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 1: just hanging out with other people instead. You know, you 152 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: can't cheat on your friends the way that you could 153 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: cheat on a partner, and you can have multiple friends, 154 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: whereas in relationships we have that expectation of monogamy. So 155 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: often what happens is we end up staying in these 156 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: friendships and prolonging them with you know, little snippets of 157 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: interactions when we should just be cutting ties. I think 158 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: also unlike our romantic relationships or you know, however, unlike 159 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: romantic relationships in which there is kind of an understanding 160 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,720 Speaker 1: that things may not work out, and that's kind of 161 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: part of the agreement you both sign up for. You know, 162 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: the inevitability of a breakup from a relationship in your 163 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:32,439 Speaker 1: teenage years or you know, in your twenties, an it's understood. 164 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: It's a dynamic of a romantic attachment. But with friendships, 165 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: we assume that our friends will be around forever. We 166 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: expect that will be you know, old people retiring together, 167 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: beat each other's weddings, meet the family, meet each other's kids. 168 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: So this means that if there is a break up, 169 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: we aren't just grieving the present loss of that friend, 170 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 1: but also the loss of that friend in our imagined future. 171 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: It also makes ending of friendships quite awkward and appears unnecessary. 172 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: You know, why do we need to break up with 173 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: a friend? Why not just let it fizzle and let 174 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: the debris settle. I think sometimes that's just not really 175 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: a healthy option. Sometimes it's also not the best way 176 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: to avoid hurt. Like the last taste of your friendship 177 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: should not be one of bitterness and resentment. So sometimes 178 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: you do need to have that chat with them. You 179 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: need to talk to them and be like, this isn't 180 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: really working. The same book I was reading kind of 181 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: goes into this a little bit more, and it concluded 182 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,560 Speaker 1: that there were two main reasons why friendships end. But 183 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: I think I've added a third because I think it 184 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: also deserves acknowledgement. That's the fizzle. So these are the 185 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 1: three reasons the three big, fat reasons why this psychologist 186 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: believes that friendships end. So Number one, something bad happens, 187 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: a betrayal, circumstances that make you realize that you and 188 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: that the person can no longer be friends. These are 189 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: relationships that end because of something really terrible, often resulting 190 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: in maybe a big fight or something of that genre. 191 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 1: It's not reparable the fizzle. You just lose your chemistry 192 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: with someone. You drift. That's that, no harm, no foul, 193 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: no falling out. You have those friends you were really 194 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: close to at some point, and now the conversation no 195 00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: longer flows in the same manner, and you both kind 196 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 1: of recognize that you don't really have that same spark. 197 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: And finally, incompatibility and values, perhaps you were really good 198 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: friends for some time, but as you've grown, your compatibility 199 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: and values in life have changed. Or maybe your values 200 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: really never aligned in the first place, and something has 201 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: made you realize that, or just made you realize that 202 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: you expect different things from each other as friends, and 203 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: I think in general this is the most common reason 204 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,160 Speaker 1: friendships typically come to an end, because there is a 205 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: disconnect that one or both of you feel is beyond repair. 206 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: It's not nasty. It's not a negative thing. You're simply 207 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,160 Speaker 1: going through different life transitions that are going to take 208 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: you to different places. And there's that age old wisdom. 209 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: My friend Lucy to tell this to me the other day. 210 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: People come into your life for a reason, a season 211 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: or a lifetime, and that applies to friendships, I think 212 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: more than any other kind of relationship. Think about all 213 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: those people that you know from high school who are 214 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:39,200 Speaker 1: still friends with the exact same people. They just has 215 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,680 Speaker 1: to be. I think some tension and incompatibility in these situations. 216 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: You know, how can you be on the same trajectory 217 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: as every person in your life that you have ever 218 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: shared a friendship with. People Change and stagnation is really unhealthy. 219 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: It doesn't allow your brain to move, grow, change, and 220 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:03,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't give you new experiences or new ways to 221 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: learn with new people. Because if you're keeping all those 222 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,959 Speaker 1: people that you've always been friends with, there's no room 223 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: for new people. There's no room for someone else. And 224 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 1: that kind of means it's necessary to shed or relationships 225 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: to grow into your new skin. Like I said, imagine 226 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: if you were friends with every person you have ever 227 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: shared a connection with like it would be a fucking 228 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,480 Speaker 1: full time job and more to stay in contact with 229 00:13:27,520 --> 00:13:30,719 Speaker 1: all of them, to hear about, provide support to all 230 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,599 Speaker 1: of them, to have to stay up to date with 231 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: their lives. Essentially, I think, although that was a bit 232 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,559 Speaker 1: of a rant, what I'm trying to kind of communicate 233 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:44,319 Speaker 1: is that friendships ending is not only normal, but also 234 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 1: a necessary part of growth, and it should be something 235 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 1: that we are more honest about. If you and a 236 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: person are no longer compatible, you have different priorities, you 237 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: know why, for said at that stage, would it not 238 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: just be better to give each other the freedom to 239 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: move on and transform into the new versions of yourselves, 240 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: rather than you both kind of having to appease those 241 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: who are now a reflection of a past you. I 242 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 1: think there is one element of friendship breaks ups that 243 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: I do really want to touch on, though because I'm 244 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: very not I don't want to say like, I'm a 245 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: pro friendship breakup person, but I'm pro cultivating the right 246 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: relationships for you. We often hear someone refer to an 247 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: ex friend as toxic or they bring negative energy into 248 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: their life, and I'm sure we've all used that word. 249 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: Or you know their toxic is farc or their relationship 250 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: was like so it was like really toxic, Like they're 251 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: a toxic person. And I kind of have always had 252 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: a bit of a problem with this, like do toxic 253 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: people really exist? Is this a reason to kind of 254 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 1: justify ending a friendship with someone that they're toxic, They're 255 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: inherently toxic. And I do have a bit of a 256 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: particular opinion about this obviously that I don't think is 257 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 1: necessarily shared by everyone. But I really don't think that 258 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: toxic people as a category exist. I don't think that 259 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,400 Speaker 1: anyone in particular is, you know, just toxic to their core. 260 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: People just have friction with other people and not with others, 261 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,479 Speaker 1: and that creates negativity. And that toxicity that we associate 262 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 1: with someone in particular, it's not that person. It's your 263 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: relationship within with that person, not them, And I think 264 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: those are those things that we can't really confuse and 265 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: because of your relationship and because it's not compatible, that's 266 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: what creates that negativity. Like, no one is toxic. I 267 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: hate that phrase. I don't think that we can claim 268 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: anyone is toxic. But with that in mind, I do 269 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: think there obviously is a certain point where friendships do 270 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: cross boundaries and become an increasingly negative force on your life, 271 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: and psychological research does say there are certain personality types 272 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: that do tend to conflict with others, meaning that those 273 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: relationships are more likely to be kind of charged with negativity. 274 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,880 Speaker 1: So these types of people have, like I said, distinct 275 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: personalities or ways of operating socially, but this doesn't make 276 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: them entirely toxic or toxic for everyone. They just might 277 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: not be the most compatible with you or with the 278 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: majority of people. So according to some of this recent 279 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: research that I stumbled across, and this was really interesting 280 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: because I've never heard of this concept before, but this 281 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: researcher suggests that there are at least four basic types 282 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 1: of people that we generally may see as toxic, So 283 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: the narcissistic as narcissistic aggressive person, the phren of me, 284 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: the negative complaining person, and the seductive overly dramatic person. 285 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: Starting off, so, the narcissistic aggressive type is often someone 286 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: who is selfish but still highly charming, so they charm 287 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: and suck you in and can be rather assertive, but 288 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,719 Speaker 1: they're also inclined towards possessiveness. So although the initial stages 289 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 1: of the friendship may be very gioy and exciting, pleasant 290 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,919 Speaker 1: even there is often a degree of rage or anger 291 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: when things don't grow their own way, and intense outbursts. 292 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: Almost when you spend time with people or they tend 293 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 1: to or you know, they might perceive that you're neglecting them. 294 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:31,399 Speaker 1: So the fhren of me is the next archetype. So 295 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: they seem like a friend, but can often become jealous. 296 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: Perhaps they're prone to gossip and you feel like you 297 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: just can't trust them. You might even feel inclined to 298 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,120 Speaker 1: say that they're or perhaps see that they're deliberately trying 299 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: to sabotage your happiness amongst other people in order to 300 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: kind of bolster their self worth self esteem as well. 301 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,640 Speaker 1: And by sabotaging those other relationships, it also increases your 302 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,199 Speaker 1: reliance on them. So the third archetype this is the 303 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: negative complaining person, and this is someone who never never 304 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: appears happy. They're never satisfied with your friendship and what 305 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: you have to give them in any way. Nothing pleases them. 306 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: And I had a friend like this, and my fucking god, 307 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: it was exhausting being around. You know, someone who regards 308 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: their life as terrible and can never take encouragement is exhausting, 309 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: it's so tiring, it makes you feel depressed. You just 310 00:18:28,359 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: feel so hopeless, and you want to help them, but 311 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: it's just sometimes there's just as people who are just 312 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: ultimately pessimistic and perhaps at first, you know, like other archetypes, 313 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: they appear really friendly and they're open to adventure, but 314 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 1: it can often change into passive aggression and need to 315 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 1: dominate your social life and a pattern of negativity that 316 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: is really difficult to deal with and it's difficult to overcome, 317 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: and it's I think a being indicator of this type 318 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: of person, the negative complaining person is that it's emotionally 319 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: draining to be around them, and it's emotionally draining to 320 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: hear how everyone and everything in life is failing them 321 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:07,679 Speaker 1: and going poorly whilst you're trying to hold them up 322 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: trying to support them. Finally, the seductive, overly dramatic person. 323 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,679 Speaker 1: So these people, they're often the life of the party. 324 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: They're physically attractive, intelligent, charming, exciting, but they steamroll you. 325 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: They require all of your attention. This is the type 326 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 1: of person or individual who never seems to be listening 327 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: when you're telling them your issues, or they're interrupt and 328 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: trying to make something funnier about them just cut you off. 329 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 1: They talk over you, and they often require a lot 330 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: of attention and energy, but almost never seem to come 331 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: through for you, or they never really seem to acknowledge 332 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: you either. You're just kind of an accessory for them. 333 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: They crave attention, but it can leave you as the 334 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 1: friend feeling pretty depleted and unworthy, unseen or useles. So, 335 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: knowing that there are these types of people out there, 336 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:08,640 Speaker 1: I'm sure we can all conjure upon some image of 337 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 1: someone who would fit into at least one of these 338 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 1: four categories. But then there's the question, we all know 339 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: someone like this, So why do we continue to remain 340 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 1: friends with people who treat us poorly or who make 341 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: us feel unappreciated. So one reason why we remain friends 342 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: with people a lot longer than necessary is fear. It's 343 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: fear of loneliness. Humans have a natural drive to avoid loneliness. 344 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: It's built into our DNA. So when we feel less 345 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: socially connected or separated, or feel like a member of 346 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: our extended tribe essentially is treating us poorly or withdrawing, 347 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: It creates this visceral knee jerk reaction. Emotionally and as 348 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: a tribal species, our brains have adapted to rely on 349 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: social connections as a means to survive. So, according to 350 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: this neuroscience scientist, his name was John Kaciopo. Kaciopo, John Kaciopo, 351 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:12,320 Speaker 1: I'll put it in the show notes. You can have 352 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 1: a look at it if you want. He's made a 353 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 1: career out of basically just studying loneliness, a really kind 354 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: of a sad niche and in one of his recent 355 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 1: papers he made this point. So, the absence of social 356 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: connection triggers the same primal alarm bells as hunger, thirst, 357 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: and physical pain. So this is what leads us to 358 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 1: maintain friendships even when they are incompatible or we no 359 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: longer feel satisfied, especially if we feel like we have 360 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: limited options beyond that friend or group of friends. Additionally, 361 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 1: unhealthy friendships can do enormous damage to your confidence levels 362 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: without you even realizing it. So the idea of leaving 363 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,880 Speaker 1: what is comfortable, even if it's not fulfilling, and going 364 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: out to find new friends it can be extra terrifying 365 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: if you already are in a place of depleted self esteem. 366 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: This also kind of leads on to another reason why 367 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,920 Speaker 1: we stay friends with people who might not necessarily be 368 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: the best fit for our character or bring out the 369 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: best aspects of who we are. We want to feel needed. 370 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,919 Speaker 1: Everyone wants to feel like they provide value to the world, 371 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: and if we're there for our friends, if we have friends, 372 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: it makes us feel like we're valuable. And social connections 373 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: are also an incredibly meaningful and often understated way in 374 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: which we feel we have purpose. Friendships and social ties 375 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: they allow us to situate ourselves in our external world, 376 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: and internally they make us feel secure and supported, especially 377 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 1: when our presence is serving a function for someone else. 378 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 1: The underlying psychology and the socially tuned nature of our 379 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,960 Speaker 1: brain can also make it exceptionally difficult to end friendships, 380 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,679 Speaker 1: especially if, like in a breakup, we're concentrating on times 381 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: when our friendships were positive and warm and glowy and nice. 382 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: Friendships have a honeymoon face, just like relationships. But I 383 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: think just like relationships, we also tend to outgrow them. 384 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: Like I said, if you're not losing friends, you're not growing. 385 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: But I think the important thing to remember and I 386 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,400 Speaker 1: know it's just like this isn't like a necessarily very 387 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: wise thing to say. I just think it's a nice 388 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: way to end the episode. Is that friends should be 389 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: there to support you and to enrich your life, and 390 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: if they're bringing you down, it's probably time to move on. 391 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: If you don't enjoy their company, move on. The people 392 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: you choose to surround yourself with should be great spirits, 393 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: and they should inspire you to be the absolute best 394 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,400 Speaker 1: you can and just create that energy that you yourself 395 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: funding and body and represent. I think in our twenties 396 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: it's inevitable you're going to go through a friendship breakup, 397 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 1: but recognizing when it is time to move on and 398 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: handling it with grace is kind of our best option 399 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: at that point. Honestly, I don't know, this is a 400 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: bit weird, but why not have like a breakup chat 401 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: about it. I've done it with friends before. It kind 402 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: of curbs the awkwardness. And obviously that's not an option 403 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,120 Speaker 1: for everyone. If someone's done something really terrible to you, 404 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: cut them out. You know, vibe so high you don't 405 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 1: need them. Sometimes you know you're just going to have 406 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: to have awkward run ins with X friends and just 407 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: hope that you're both mature mature enough to like not 408 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: mention it and just ask how each other have been 409 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: and move on, me the bigger person. Anyhow, I hope 410 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 1: you guys enjoyed this episode. Like I kind of mentioned, 411 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: it was incredibly cathartic, and it's kind of been building 412 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: up in my notes archive for a while. So I 413 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: just think it's super important to talk about friendship breakups. 414 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: They're everywhere. We can all think of someone who we're 415 00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: no longer friends with, maybe we even resent them, we 416 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: haven't forgiven them for something. It feels like that refrenchhip 417 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: felt like a relationship even so, definitely something I think 418 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 1: needs to be talked about more So. I hope that 419 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: kind of understanding some of the psychology behind it was interesting, 420 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: And like I said, like I always say, I guess, 421 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: remember to subscribe to this podcast if you liked it 422 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: on wherever you're listening. Honestly, I'm sure you can subscribe 423 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: there unless it's like on the website like my grandparents 424 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: do it. And I hope that we're all coping well 425 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 1: with lockdown and whatever is going on with your life. Yeah, 426 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: feel free to drop some suggestions as well on Instagram 427 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: if you've got any ideas about what you want to 428 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: hear about on the next episode of the show, and 429 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: as always, thanks so much for listening.