1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,759 Sime Gandhi: Welcome back to She Pivots. I'm Sema Gandhi. 2 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,599 Emily Tisch Sussman: Welcome back to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk 3 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:19,239 Emily Tisch Sussman: with women who dare to pivot out of one career 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: and into something new and explore how their personal lives 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:33,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: impacts these decisions. I'm your host Emily Tish Sussman. Today, 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: I'm truly honored to welcome Sema Gandhi, who is here 7 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:39,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: today to share her story publicly. For the first time. 8 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: I met Sema in my pre pivot days working on 9 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: policy in DC. It feels like a lifetime has passed, 10 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: and in some ways it has. Since then, Seema has 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,879 Emily Tisch Sussman: not only made professional pivots, but deeply personal ones, and 12 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: that's what we're going to explore today. By all accounts, 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: Sema has what many would consider alife with all the 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:03,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: right titles andiances. She's a stand for graduate, a lawyer, 15 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: an early stage leader at the wildly successful tech company Plaid, 16 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:12,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: a wife, mother, and founder and CEO of her own company. 17 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: But behind it all, Sema was privately struggling with her 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: relationship with her family. Growing up, she constantly felt like 19 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: she had to walk on eggshells. The smallest misstep would 20 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,959 Emily Tisch Sussman: result in explosive fights and manipulative behavior using her as 21 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:30,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: a pawn was a constant. You'll hear how much she 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: struggled with this, the confusion and guilt she carried, constantly 23 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: questioning if it was her that was misinterpreting, was it 24 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:40,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: her fault? She tried for years to maintain a healthy 25 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: relationship with them, even after she and her husband moved 26 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: back to live near her parents. Sema worked hard to 27 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:50,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: create clear boundaries for herself and her young baby, but 28 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:52,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: at the height of her career, while she was leading 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: Plaid through a major exit, her mother filed a lawsuit 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: against both Sema and her father. It was a devastating 31 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: and grueling experience that dragged on for years. And here's 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: the thing. Estrangement is not something we often talk about openly. 33 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: We hear about divorce, about friendships falling apart, but family 34 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:17,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: estrangement still carries a heavy stigma, even though research shows 35 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:19,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: that one in four Americans is a strange from a parent. 36 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:23,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: It's the silence that makes the experience even more isolating 37 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:26,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: for those living it. When I started the show, I 38 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: wanted to highlight stories that change the perception of professional 39 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:34,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: success to include our personal experiences, and SEMA's story is 40 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: exactly that that, no matter the professional highs we may reach, 41 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:41,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: the reality is that our personal lives are, without question, 42 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:45,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: part of the larger picture. I'm so grateful to Seema 43 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: for being so vulnerable and sharing her story with us. 44 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: So without further ado, welcome Seema. 45 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,920 Sime Gandhi: My name is Sema Bondi and right now I do 46 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,240 Sime Gandhi: a lot of different entrepreneurial type and there's no easy 47 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,200 Sime Gandhi: answer to describe that which we'll talk about today. 48 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: Perfect answer, perfect, Okay, great, So let's back up. We're 49 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: going to go in chronological order, as you know, so 50 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: we're going to back up. Where did you grow up? 51 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,400 Emily Tisch Sussman: Can you tell us about your childhood? Can tell us 52 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:15,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: about your family? 53 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:17,920 Sime Gandhi: So I grew up in California. I grew up in 54 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:22,480 Sime Gandhi: California a long time ago before I think California is 55 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,200 Sime Gandhi: what it is today. And I say that because California 56 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,080 Sime Gandhi: was a little bit of a weird place when I 57 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,120 Sime Gandhi: grew up there, a little bit more offbeat culture, a 58 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,040 Sime Gandhi: little bit more free willing. You know, my background is 59 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,000 Sime Gandhi: India and my parents are from India. And today when 60 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,680 Sime Gandhi: you look at California, especially in the Bay Area, which 61 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:41,440 Sime Gandhi: is where I went to high school, you think of 62 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,160 Sime Gandhi: a lot of Indian people there, and that wasn't necessarily 63 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:47,600 Sime Gandhi: the case when we grew up. It was still pre Google. 64 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:52,400 Sime Gandhi: There were orchards down the street smoke weed. But I 65 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,560 Sime Gandhi: think the more I think, I said, the older I get, 66 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,200 Sime Gandhi: the more appreciate how much our childhoods and our family 67 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,000 Sime Gandhi: dynamics affect who we are as people. And so in 68 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,720 Sime Gandhi: that spirit, I think as I reflect upon my childhood, 69 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:07,640 Sime Gandhi: there are universal traits around growing up. Like I think 70 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,520 Sime Gandhi: all children want the love and affection of the parents, 71 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,760 Sime Gandhi: and I think in immigrant families my parents were immigrants 72 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,080 Sime Gandhi: from India coming here, there's also you know, you grew 73 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,440 Sime Gandhi: up with a sense of obligation, like we came here 74 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,560 Sime Gandhi: to this country sacrifice for you so that you can 75 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,000 Sime Gandhi: have a better life, and so you have to pay 76 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,839 Sime Gandhi: us back by doing well in school and you get 77 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,800 Sime Gandhi: a's and you go to a good school and you 78 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:35,360 Sime Gandhi: be successful because we sacrifice that you could go do that. 79 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,680 Sime Gandhi: And that was very much kind of a cultural conditioning 80 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,320 Sime Gandhi: of growing up. I'm a little wary of kind of 81 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:45,559 Sime Gandhi: talking about these things through a cultural or immigrant lens, 82 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,600 Sime Gandhi: because I think some of my American multi generational family, 83 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,479 Sime Gandhi: kids would say, well, my parents expected us to have 84 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,599 Sime Gandhi: a's too, And so I don't mean to alienate that 85 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,479 Sime Gandhi: dynamic as specifically immigrant, but I do think that there's 86 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:03,840 Sime Gandhi: something a little different about having immigrant parents who are 87 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,880 Sime Gandhi: also themselves trying to acclimate to a new culture and 88 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:11,839 Sime Gandhi: the financial uncertainty, where maybe their definitions are a bit 89 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,680 Sime Gandhi: more narrow and the pressure is more acute, and so 90 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,400 Sime Gandhi: some of these come out in a more exaggerated dynamic. 91 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,640 Sime Gandhi: And on top of that, in my family, there was 92 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,600 Sime Gandhi: also a bit of mental illness which was undiagnosed for many, 93 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,800 Sime Gandhi: many years. And again today versus the conversations happening thirty 94 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,200 Sime Gandhi: years ago, it's very different. I think today something on 95 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,880 Sime Gandhi: the order of one in five children are in some 96 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,800 Sime Gandhi: type of medication. We talk about anxiety, we talk about 97 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:41,440 Sime Gandhi: therapy quite fluidly, and that was not the case when 98 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,000 Sime Gandhi: I was growing up, and in particular in our cultural 99 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:47,440 Sime Gandhi: context of a family member of ours was institutionalized. I 100 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,640 Sime Gandhi: remember going to see him and in a true institution, 101 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:55,800 Sime Gandhi: and our family shut down, our nuclear family shut down, 102 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,320 Sime Gandhi: and we didn't have a community to lean on that 103 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,560 Sime Gandhi: or talk about that and understand what all of that meant, 104 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:03,640 Sime Gandhi: and so I think how all of that kind of 105 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,080 Sime Gandhi: translated into is when I look back, I think we 106 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,440 Sime Gandhi: all want to be from happy families, and we all 107 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,400 Sime Gandhi: want to think that our families are the Norman Rockwell 108 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,400 Sime Gandhi: pictures where you know, we sit around and we celebrate 109 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,160 Sime Gandhi: Christmas and remember the really good things. But I also 110 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,400 Sime Gandhi: think that there were really hard things that for a 111 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,080 Sime Gandhi: lot of years I glossed over or repressed. And I 112 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:24,800 Sime Gandhi: think that, you know, our family is what we know, 113 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:26,480 Sime Gandhi: and it's what we want to work. And there's that 114 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,000 Sime Gandhi: Leon Tolstoy quote, I love all happy families are alike, 115 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,600 Sime Gandhi: and each happy, each family is unhappy in its own way. 116 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:35,560 Sime Gandhi: And we were very much struggling through some things as 117 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,400 Sime Gandhi: we grew up. But you know, I think that's that's 118 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,000 Sime Gandhi: partly what shaped me and made me who I am today. 119 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: You've alluded to it, but are you comfortable being more 120 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: specific about what some of these behaviors were from your family, 121 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:51,679 Emily Tisch Sussman: like how the mental illness manifested itself. 122 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,279 Sime Gandhi: Yeah, I have to admit it's hard, because it's so 123 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,599 Sime Gandhi: hard for me. Don't know what sounds weird or what 124 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,320 Sime Gandhi: sounds kind of helps people understand what that's like. If 125 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,400 Sime Gandhi: that makes any sense. So there's you know, it's like 126 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,320 Sime Gandhi: sometimes I'm like, oh, my mom called me a spoil 127 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,039 Sime Gandhi: bit because I got into Stanford. I went to Stanford, 128 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:11,080 Sime Gandhi: and that some people are like, oh my god, and 129 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,040 Sime Gandhi: other people are like, okay, well, so it's hard for 130 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:16,520 Sime Gandhi: me to really know. But there's an example where and 131 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:18,240 Sime Gandhi: I look back now and I see the story through 132 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,120 Sime Gandhi: such different eyes. But culturally again, and girls tend to 133 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,040 Sime Gandhi: have longer hair, and that's tend to be seen as 134 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,840 Sime Gandhi: very pretty. And I had longer hair and I did 135 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,440 Sime Gandhi: ballet because that was very feminine, and my mom, well, 136 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,280 Sime Gandhi: I didn't want long hair. I wanted short hair. And 137 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:34,440 Sime Gandhi: maybe again this is me trying to exert my power 138 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,600 Sime Gandhi: and defy stereotypes. And my dad was really adamant, like 139 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,040 Sime Gandhi: I needed to have the long hair, and so my 140 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:43,640 Sime Gandhi: mom took me to get my haircut and I was stoked, 141 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,920 Sime Gandhi: like I got my haircut, this is what I wanted. 142 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:48,920 Sime Gandhi: And my dad didn't talk to me for a week. 143 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,800 Sime Gandhi: And it was a huge fight, huge fight at home, 144 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,200 Sime Gandhi: the screaming, the yelling, you know, all of that, and 145 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,440 Sime Gandhi: didn't I didn't really understand it at the time, but 146 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:02,239 Sime Gandhi: now I under stand that was a power play, right, 147 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,560 Sime Gandhi: like she was using us to hurt him. And it's again, 148 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,760 Sime Gandhi: it's a stupid thing. It's a haircut, and it could 149 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:11,640 Sime Gandhi: have been easily resolved through a conversation. But that's not 150 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,200 Sime Gandhi: what we grew up with. We grew up with things 151 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,000 Sime Gandhi: that were intended to hurt other people. She helped me 152 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,640 Sime Gandhi: secretly quit ballet so that I could get at she 153 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,320 Sime Gandhi: could get at my dad. Right. There were things like 154 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,680 Sime Gandhi: my dad and I like to go on walks and 155 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:26,400 Sime Gandhi: at some point we had we would have to sneak 156 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,360 Sime Gandhi: out in the morning because other I she'd scream at 157 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:31,760 Sime Gandhi: us for going out because she didn't want us to 158 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,680 Sime Gandhi: be out of the house and she resented that time together. 159 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:37,839 Sime Gandhi: I don't know what it was. It was a controlling thing. 160 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,679 Sime Gandhi: And so in my family was always like rocking on eggshells, right, 161 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,120 Sime Gandhi: You just never knew what could set somebody off, and 162 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,840 Sime Gandhi: if they be set off, there's no reasoning about it. 163 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,280 Sime Gandhi: It's just a full on screaming and it's even hard 164 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,920 Sime Gandhi: to describe it physically. It's like you're screaming so hard 165 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,880 Sime Gandhi: that your blood is pulsing throughout your body and your 166 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:57,920 Sime Gandhi: head feels like it's going to explode, and it's this 167 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:03,760 Sime Gandhi: whole physical sperience and it's hard, like you can't you 168 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,880 Sime Gandhi: can't be who you are and have needs and talk 169 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,000 Sime Gandhi: about it like you would around a normal dinner table. 170 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,680 Sime Gandhi: I think these things are you know again, they seem small, 171 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:15,240 Sime Gandhi: so it's hard to really articulate. It's like, for example, 172 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,640 Sime Gandhi: you know, my sixteenth birthday, let's go after dinner. Where 173 00:09:17,679 --> 00:09:18,920 Sime Gandhi: do you want to go? Seema? I want to go 174 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:21,599 Sime Gandhi: to this Italian restaurant. She's like, well, I want to 175 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,920 Sime Gandhi: do Chinese? What do you do? Right? And so there's 176 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,880 Sime Gandhi: a fight, and you know, my dad's steps in. He's like, 177 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,360 Sime Gandhi: well it's her birthday, let's do Italian. So we do Italian. 178 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,480 Sime Gandhi: But was out of fun dinner now right, And so 179 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,360 Sime Gandhi: it's like these things that just rob you of joy, 180 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,840 Sime Gandhi: of feeling loved, of feeling supported, because it's not about you, 181 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,760 Sime Gandhi: and it's just it's a child of that. And I 182 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:44,720 Sime Gandhi: you know, I say this with humility in some ways, 183 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,440 Sime Gandhi: because we had food on a table, right, Like my 184 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,760 Sime Gandhi: parents were present. You know, I was not abused physically 185 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:53,160 Sime Gandhi: like and I know so many people have so much 186 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,000 Sime Gandhi: more that they've had to deal with or didn't grow 187 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:58,560 Sime Gandhi: up in a war zone. We had a pretty good 188 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,920 Sime Gandhi: life from the but I think some of that emotional 189 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,800 Sime Gandhi: nourishment and love and support that I'm sure all of 190 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,360 Sime Gandhi: us wanted to give our kids, it was just not 191 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,680 Sime Gandhi: something that was on our table. 192 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: It sounds like maybe she was very explosive when you 193 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: didn't abide exactly the way that she wanted you to. 194 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,200 Sime Gandhi: That's right, But it was also explosive when things were happening, right. 195 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,960 Sime Gandhi: So I remember growing up, my dad would always as 196 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,800 Sime Gandhi: a family, we try to go out for dinner one 197 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,640 Sime Gandhi: night a week and go see a movie, like we'd 198 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,120 Sime Gandhi: go to the Dollar theater. It was super exciting, right, 199 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,920 Sime Gandhi: And again something I don't think I fully appreciated until 200 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,960 Sime Gandhi: I became a mother. It was just the power dynamics 201 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:42,360 Sime Gandhi: at play in our home. And I like to say 202 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,120 Sime Gandhi: that one of the causes of evil in the world 203 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,640 Sime Gandhi: are children who were not loved enough as when they 204 00:10:47,679 --> 00:10:49,840 Sime Gandhi: were when they were children. And I think my mom 205 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,840 Sime Gandhi: had her own rough childhood, and again that's a whole story. 206 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,920 Sime Gandhi: But when there were opportunities to exert power, she used them. 207 00:10:57,080 --> 00:10:59,520 Sime Gandhi: And so there were many times when we'd be ready 208 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,880 Sime Gandhi: to go and she'd just be in bed and scream 209 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:05,440 Sime Gandhi: at us. Right, It wasn't even an expectation of behavior 210 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,880 Sime Gandhi: with her moment to be coddled and controlled and like, 211 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,320 Sime Gandhi: come on, mom, please come with us, Like let's go out. 212 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:13,400 Sime Gandhi: If we love you, we want you to come. And 213 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,040 Sime Gandhi: you know, just the way she would scream the us 214 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,080 Sime Gandhi: or treat us. And I now can't imagine doing that 215 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,640 Sime Gandhi: to my own child, right, like to strip them of 216 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,080 Sime Gandhi: that stability and security and instead use them as a 217 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,240 Sime Gandhi: tool to manipulate. And you know, I think that was 218 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,000 Sime Gandhi: a threat I saw throughout our childhood. But at the 219 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,320 Sime Gandhi: end of the day, I think part of why cycles 220 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,400 Sime Gandhi: of trauma are perpetuated is because I think there's a 221 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,120 Sime Gandhi: very elemental desire to have parents in your life, to 222 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,680 Sime Gandhi: think of yourself as being part of a unit. And so, 223 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,080 Sime Gandhi: you know, it's quite sad, but you see children of 224 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,800 Sime Gandhi: abused situations that still love their parents, right, and they 225 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,719 Sime Gandhi: want to be part of that unit. And there's also 226 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,200 Sime Gandhi: again this cultural context, Right, I grew up in this context. 227 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,400 Sime Gandhi: Let us thicker than water. Families that stick together grow together, 228 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,280 Sime Gandhi: and that is just the unit. And so it doesn't 229 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,160 Sime Gandhi: even kind of cross my mind to think about estrangement 230 00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,880 Sime Gandhi: or separating yourself from your family or creating deliberate boundaries. 231 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:10,839 Sime Gandhi: I didn't have those toolkits. 232 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:18,199 Emily Tisch Sussman: Did you have thoughts or dreams about what a grown 233 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,319 Emily Tisch Sussman: up life would look like like When people ask the 234 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,240 Emily Tisch Sussman: question of kids, what do you want to be when 235 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:24,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: you grew up? Did you think about it? 236 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,200 Sime Gandhi: Or you just It was hard in this cultural context too, 237 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,360 Sime Gandhi: because you know, on the one hand, my dad was 238 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,720 Sime Gandhi: a massive advocate for me, but on the other hand, 239 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:38,880 Sime Gandhi: in our cultural context, women needed to smile and be supportive. 240 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,439 Sime Gandhi: And I think that's true beyond my cultural context too, 241 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:43,160 Sime Gandhi: and a lot of women. Again, this goes back to 242 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,679 Sime Gandhi: the point made earlier, where I think a lot of women, 243 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,959 Sime Gandhi: multi generation American women would feel this way, but maybe 244 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,679 Sime Gandhi: more acutely in this cultural context. And I looked up 245 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,200 Sime Gandhi: that the women, you know, the aunties that we grew 246 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,679 Sime Gandhi: up with, I didn't really see strong role models. They 247 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:00,600 Sime Gandhi: were always described as crazy or too emotion and so 248 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:02,839 Sime Gandhi: it was almost like I needed to alienate myself from 249 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,600 Sime Gandhi: that image because that wasn't successful. And you know, we're 250 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,120 Sime Gandhi: about the same age growing up, you know, women, there 251 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,120 Sime Gandhi: weren't a lot of female CEOs. I remember when Carly 252 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,040 Sime Gandhi: Fiorina became CEO if you would Packard, and I was like, wow, 253 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,200 Sime Gandhi: that's amazing, right, And she made it there from being 254 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,160 Sime Gandhi: secretary all the way to CEO. And you know, Hillary 255 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:24,120 Sime Gandhi: Clinton was this paradigm of a strong woman. She got 256 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,920 Sime Gandhi: crucified in the media for a lot of reasons, but 257 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:29,200 Sime Gandhi: I think she was also one of the first to 258 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,840 Sime Gandhi: stand on her own as a strong, smart woman. And 259 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,760 Sime Gandhi: so I really struggled to find women that I could 260 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,480 Sime Gandhi: relate to, and I think the one that I really 261 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,760 Sime Gandhi: did relate to was Claire Huxble. And I know the 262 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,840 Sime Gandhi: Cosby Show has its baggage now, but I really do 263 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:45,720 Sime Gandhi: love that show and it still makes me laugh out loud. 264 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,560 Sime Gandhi: But she was She was strong, she was funny, she 265 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,720 Sime Gandhi: had an amazing career, She didn't take anyone's crap right, 266 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,959 Sime Gandhi: and she was articulate and in a lot of ways, 267 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,560 Sime Gandhi: she was what I wanted to be. And that's a 268 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,480 Sime Gandhi: model that I really clutched onto throughout my childhood. 269 00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: Did you choose Stanford because it was close? Did you 270 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: think about other schools? Like you were kind of staying 271 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:10,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: close to home for college when that could have been 272 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:12,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: the first opportunity to move away. 273 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,319 Sime Gandhi: Honestly, I struggled with that decision, and I recognized it's 274 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,800 Sime Gandhi: the decision of privilege. I loved Stanford. I loved the campus, 275 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,480 Sime Gandhi: I loved the diversity. But the challenge for me was 276 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:24,480 Sime Gandhi: that I was so close to home, and I was 277 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,200 Sime Gandhi: afraid of being so close to home because here I 278 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,400 Sime Gandhi: was trying to get out and have independence. And so 279 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,120 Sime Gandhi: I remember really talking to my parents saying, this is 280 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,360 Sime Gandhi: you can't just you have to pretend I'm far away. 281 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:39,720 Sime Gandhi: You can't just show up, and you know, there's got 282 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:44,440 Sime Gandhi: to be a line. And actually, my sophomore year, my 283 00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,080 Sime Gandhi: mom showed up to my dorm room and she'd made 284 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,400 Sime Gandhi: some of my favorite foods. And on the surface level, 285 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:53,720 Sime Gandhi: you'd think, oh, my gosh, that's so sweet she showed 286 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:56,720 Sime Gandhi: up and she brought some some food. But on another level, 287 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,560 Sime Gandhi: it so scared me because I felt like my boundary 288 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,080 Sime Gandhi: was being violated, Like this was supposed to be my world, 289 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,080 Sime Gandhi: and I'd made very clear that I didn't want anyone 290 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,000 Sime Gandhi: showing up just like that, and here she was in 291 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,080 Sime Gandhi: my dorm room, standing outside my door, with expectations of 292 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,720 Sime Gandhi: me welcome and being her and making time for her. 293 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:17,760 Sime Gandhi: And this was supposed to be my life, and I 294 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,520 Sime Gandhi: really struggled with that because on the one hand, you know, 295 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,360 Sime Gandhi: I felt like I was being selfish by not dropping 296 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:25,400 Sime Gandhi: everything and being there for her. But on the other hand, 297 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,800 Sime Gandhi: I now have the language to say that was a 298 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,160 Sime Gandhi: self care moment where I had created boundaries to help 299 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:32,960 Sime Gandhi: protect this life that I was trying to build for 300 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:35,160 Sime Gandhi: myself and figure out who I was outside of the home. 301 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:39,840 Sime Gandhi: And that was a very drawing experience. So I love 302 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,160 Sime Gandhi: my time at Stanford. I think it helped me become 303 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,320 Sime Gandhi: who I am. It showed me a whole different world 304 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,800 Sime Gandhi: that I had no idea could exist. And ultimately I 305 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,840 Sime Gandhi: decided to apply to law schools. As we mentioned, Claire 306 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,240 Sime Gandhi: Huxtables my role model, and I only applied to schools 307 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:57,720 Sime Gandhi: on the East Coast because I knew deep down that 308 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:00,960 Sime Gandhi: if I didn't leave California probably never leave. 309 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: After the break, Seema talks about how she tried to 310 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:09,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: establish distance and boundaries with her parents and what eventually 311 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:22,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: came of it all. Before the break, Seema had just 312 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: left California to go expand her horizons and create some 313 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:27,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: distance with her family. 314 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,520 Sime Gandhi: And I wanted to go try something new and I 315 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,560 Sime Gandhi: think again create some geographical distance, and so I ended 316 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:37,880 Sime Gandhi: up in New York for law school. I loved it. 317 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,880 Sime Gandhi: I loved New York. I loved the energy. I felt 318 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:42,000 Sime Gandhi: like when I was in New York, I was plugged 319 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,000 Sime Gandhi: into this electrical grid and everybody was running and there 320 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,920 Sime Gandhi: was so much to learn and see, and the cultural 321 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,920 Sime Gandhi: experience and the fashion and the food, and you could 322 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,120 Sime Gandhi: express yourself in so many different ways because there were 323 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,360 Sime Gandhi: all these people and it was amazing, and I candidly 324 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,640 Sime Gandhi: thought I'd be in New York forever, Like I never 325 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,120 Sime Gandhi: really felt the need to go back to California. And 326 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:05,920 Sime Gandhi: it was also a lot easier to maintain this balance 327 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,119 Sime Gandhi: between wanting to still have a family that was my 328 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,800 Sime Gandhi: close family, and I could fly back for holidays and 329 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,840 Sime Gandhi: start myself and then be out in two days. And 330 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:16,719 Sime Gandhi: it was a really easy way to create the right 331 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,679 Sime Gandhi: type of boundaries for me that let me live my 332 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:21,199 Sime Gandhi: life but also let me jump back into my family 333 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,719 Sime Gandhi: in a way that felt like I could belong and 334 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,160 Sime Gandhi: have a loving unit. 335 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: Yeah, and when you went back home, what was the 336 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: relationship like, Like, was there was there a jump back 337 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: into the old behaviors that were really hard for you, 338 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,679 Emily Tisch Sussman: Like into those old patterns or did you feel like 339 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:41,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: everyone in your mom in particular, I guess, was kind 340 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:42,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: of on their best behavior to have you there. 341 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,240 Sime Gandhi: It was a mix, and I think again these universal 342 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:49,159 Sime Gandhi: trades we've all probably felt this moment back in our 343 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,480 Sime Gandhi: family's homes, were acting like children again, right, and it's like, Ah, 344 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,000 Sime Gandhi: I'm this other person outside of the house. Why is 345 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,920 Sime Gandhi: it then when I revert back to home all of 346 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:00,639 Sime Gandhi: a sudden in order to be I feel like I 347 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,200 Sime Gandhi: have to scream at the top of my lungs, like 348 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,119 Sime Gandhi: I don't want to be that person. And again, I 349 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,520 Sime Gandhi: don't know that I fully internalized just how toxic some 350 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:11,920 Sime Gandhi: of these behaviors were, or maybe how related to mental 351 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:15,000 Sime Gandhi: illness they were as well, But yeah, it was. It 352 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,920 Sime Gandhi: was definitely difficult to be back at home, especially for 353 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:20,320 Sime Gandhi: an extended period of time. And I think there was 354 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,879 Sime Gandhi: some part of me that wanted us to all be 355 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,320 Sime Gandhi: in our best behavior, right when you get off the 356 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,639 Sime Gandhi: plane and you're waiting to be picked up, to be 357 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:32,360 Sime Gandhi: picked up with joy and have that happy couple of days. 358 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,000 Sime Gandhi: But there was another part of me that understood that 359 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,920 Sime Gandhi: probably wasn't always going to be the case, and let 360 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,520 Sime Gandhi: myself not get too excited because I didn't want to 361 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,520 Sime Gandhi: be so disappointed. I knew that it was I was 362 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,920 Sime Gandhi: not the priority, and that was always clear because again, 363 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,119 Sime Gandhi: the folks with the mental illness needed the care and 364 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:53,560 Sime Gandhi: the unpredictability of their emotional stability took precedence over a 365 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,399 Sime Gandhi: visit with me, and so that was kind of the condition, right. 366 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:59,280 Sime Gandhi: I could come back home and we could do our thing. 367 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,640 Sime Gandhi: And I knew my parents we try to carve out 368 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,600 Sime Gandhi: what they could in their own way, and to me, 369 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,600 Sime Gandhi: that was just what that was just the deal. And 370 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,720 Sime Gandhi: I remember when I met my husband and he asked 371 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,520 Sime Gandhi: my dad for permission right to marry his daughter. My 372 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:17,399 Sime Gandhi: dad said to him, well, you know, she has a temper, 373 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,159 Sime Gandhi: and my husband, my now husband, said well, that's not 374 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:23,160 Sime Gandhi: really the way these conversations are supposed to work. You're 375 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,080 Sime Gandhi: just to make sure I'm good enough for your daughter. 376 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,320 Sime Gandhi: But the irony of that was my parents. My family 377 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,080 Sime Gandhi: unit has seen one side of me, the side of 378 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:32,359 Sime Gandhi: me that I needed to manifest in order to survive 379 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,200 Sime Gandhi: in that household. And I'm not someone who I think 380 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,439 Sime Gandhi: would back away from a fight. But I'm also not 381 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,680 Sime Gandhi: someone who screams at the top of my lungs, it's 382 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,399 Sime Gandhi: not who I am. Sometimes, depending on the circumstances, we 383 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,359 Sime Gandhi: have to flex certain behaviors in order to survive, and 384 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,520 Sime Gandhi: so I tried to shed a lot of those during 385 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,520 Sime Gandhi: those bits as home, and I think it became harder 386 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,159 Sime Gandhi: and harder to fall back into those patterns or kind 387 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,240 Sime Gandhi: of feel like I belonged, especially after I got married. 388 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,479 Sime Gandhi: It would make those vis with my husband when that 389 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,280 Sime Gandhi: became something that I really had to grapple with and 390 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,680 Sime Gandhi: deliberately think about creating more boundaries around. 391 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: Well, So you had found separation by going to law 392 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: school on the East coast, being on the East coast, 393 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: being in New York, but then you were eventually offered 394 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:18,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: a position as one of the first fifteen employees that PLAID, 395 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: which was back on the West Coast, near your family. 396 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: So what was that decision process like for you. 397 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,679 Sime Gandhi: I was really excited about joining PLAID. I thought the 398 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,879 Sime Gandhi: team was fantastic. I thought that problems that was interesting. 399 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,040 Sime Gandhi: It let me leverage my time in government, It let 400 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,000 Sime Gandhi: me leverage my technical background, it let me leverage my 401 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,920 Sime Gandhi: experience in the financial sector, and from a career perspective, 402 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,840 Sime Gandhi: the opportunity to be able to add value so quickly 403 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,680 Sime Gandhi: right off the bat felt really exciting, but the fact 404 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:48,879 Sime Gandhi: that I was in California within an hour of my 405 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,480 Sime Gandhi: family was scary. And I remember making a list with 406 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,360 Sime Gandhi: my husband pros and cons versus another opportunity I had 407 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,320 Sime Gandhi: in New York where we could stay in New York, 408 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,880 Sime Gandhi: and the pros and cons of going back out to California, 409 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,119 Sime Gandhi: And on the con section of the plat off or 410 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,040 Sime Gandhi: was proximity to family, and we had a real conversation 411 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:09,320 Sime Gandhi: around boundaries, like do we think we can maintain our 412 00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,119 Sime Gandhi: boundaries with my family, Like how are we going to 413 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,040 Sime Gandhi: prevent them from just showing up and bringing this baggage? 414 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,960 Sime Gandhi: And again, I want to be clear, I love my family. 415 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,800 Sime Gandhi: It's not like I was excited to go be a 416 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,960 Sime Gandhi: strange from them. But I also was afraid of just 417 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,000 Sime Gandhi: the black hole of toxicity. Like I escaped, I gotten out, 418 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,520 Sime Gandhi: and I didn't want to be pulled back in. And 419 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,240 Sime Gandhi: I struggle a lot with this idea of selfish versus 420 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,919 Sime Gandhi: self care, and in a lot of ways, those are 421 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,199 Sime Gandhi: two sides at the same coin. And I wanted to 422 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:39,119 Sime Gandhi: be there for them and be able to engage, but 423 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,680 Sime Gandhi: I was afraid of being seen as selfish by them 424 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:44,639 Sime Gandhi: right or spoiled where I don't want to partake in 425 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,159 Sime Gandhi: some of that behavior that I thought was toxic, And 426 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,639 Sime Gandhi: ultimately we decided that we could do it. I have 427 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,840 Sime Gandhi: to admit having my husband there by my side made 428 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,600 Sime Gandhi: me feel like it was more doable. It was a 429 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:58,199 Sime Gandhi: little bit of a moral compass and a pillar of stability. 430 00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:00,399 Sime Gandhi: But I also feel protective of that life that he 431 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,320 Sime Gandhi: and I had built, right, like to come from an 432 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,399 Sime Gandhi: unhappy family where I didn't really have a strong model 433 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,119 Sime Gandhi: for what healthy relationship looks like. Again, I love the 434 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,239 Sime Gandhi: dynamic between Claire and Bill Cosby. Again, I know there 435 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:14,720 Sime Gandhi: are a lot of copy oats there with that show, 436 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:18,520 Sime Gandhi: but that was that interplay, that marottery, that partnership. And 437 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,600 Sime Gandhi: then I wanted to protect my family, my relationship. I've 438 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,080 Sime Gandhi: heard hard to grow myself right, to grow out of 439 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,600 Sime Gandhi: my toxic behaviors, to build healthy relationships with people, and 440 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,719 Sime Gandhi: I wanted to protect my marriage, and I was I 441 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,439 Sime Gandhi: was afraid. I was afraid of being pulled in and 442 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,040 Sime Gandhi: what that might mean for us, And so he and 443 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,400 Sime Gandhi: I had those conversations. I spoke to a therapist. That's 444 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,160 Sime Gandhi: when I learned of the concept of deliberate boundaries, where 445 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,879 Sime Gandhi: boundaries don't have to be raised with anger, right like 446 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:47,399 Sime Gandhi: a fortress, but they can be loving, like loving boundaries like, look, 447 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,040 Sime Gandhi: you know, Emily, I kind of need tonight for myself, 448 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,320 Sime Gandhi: so I really appreciate the invitation. Let's reschedule and I'll 449 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:54,680 Sime Gandhi: get back to you on a time that worked better 450 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,159 Sime Gandhi: for us. That's a boundary that's a way of saying no, 451 00:22:57,200 --> 00:22:59,320 Sime Gandhi: but it's done out of love, out of self care, 452 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,199 Sime Gandhi: not to push you away. And so that's a muscle 453 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,640 Sime Gandhi: that I really tried to flex, where we really try 454 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,240 Sime Gandhi: to include them in our lives in a way that 455 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,639 Sime Gandhi: made sense on our terms, for just being sucked into 456 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,560 Sime Gandhi: theirs on their terms. 457 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: And around the same time you had your son, so 458 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:18,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: I'm sure that as you were trying to create these 459 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: boundaries it impacted the way you approached parenting. 460 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:27,359 Sime Gandhi: Yeah. I mean, first, even the idea or the decision 461 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,320 Sime Gandhi: to have a child was challenging. When my husband and 462 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,840 Sime Gandhi: I met, both of us were on the fence, something 463 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,560 Sime Gandhi: we discussed but neither of us really felt strongly about. 464 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:40,240 Sime Gandhi: And as we grew older, and I guess the biological 465 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,520 Sime Gandhi: clock started ticking, I decided I really wanted a child, 466 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,680 Sime Gandhi: and I think part of it was a reaction to, honestly, 467 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,240 Sime Gandhi: my own relationship with my mom. I wanted to break 468 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,639 Sime Gandhi: the cycle. It was something that I needed to do 469 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,159 Sime Gandhi: for myself, like I wanted to be I had a 470 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,720 Sime Gandhi: lot of love to give and I wanted to be 471 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:58,680 Sime Gandhi: able to do it in a way that maybe I 472 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,320 Sime Gandhi: would have wanted to have it. And so, but my husband, 473 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:05,600 Sime Gandhi: while I grew increasingly, pro grew increasing thing like con 474 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,159 Sime Gandhi: and so that was its own challenge And how do 475 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,000 Sime Gandhi: I express vulnerability around this is something that I need? 476 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,919 Sime Gandhi: And that was something that was really hard for me 477 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,040 Sime Gandhi: to say, even though I know you don't want it, 478 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,000 Sime Gandhi: would you do this for me because you love me? 479 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,239 Sime Gandhi: And it seems so easy to say right now, but 480 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,520 Sime Gandhi: I swear to a year and a half of therapy 481 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,080 Sime Gandhi: and a lot of conversations. Right, but we're business people, right. 482 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,360 Sime Gandhi: I put together a PowerPoint deck. I was like, these 483 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,960 Sime Gandhi: are all of the reasons, like your life quality will 484 00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:34,480 Sime Gandhi: be sustained and all of the ways we can supplement 485 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,119 Sime Gandhi: with care and you know the task division And he's like, 486 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:41,360 Sime Gandhi: I don't need a PowerPoint deck, Like I just need 487 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,600 Sime Gandhi: you to ask me to do it. For you. And 488 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,320 Sime Gandhi: so anyway we got through that, we had a child, 489 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,000 Sime Gandhi: and I mean that first child that year first is 490 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:54,920 Sime Gandhi: just hormonally crazy. Work was busy and I was super 491 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,960 Sime Gandhi: engaged there and I was also trying to figure this out, 492 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,600 Sime Gandhi: but like being a mo and what that relationship meant 493 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,000 Sime Gandhi: to my child, And I remember really wanting to feel 494 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,919 Sime Gandhi: or create a home that didn't have the stress, that 495 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,000 Sime Gandhi: didn't have the screaming, where it was love. And I 496 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,520 Sime Gandhi: have to say my mother in law was a phenomenal example. 497 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,440 Sime Gandhi: And I think I can't underscore just examples and role 498 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,280 Sime Gandhi: models in life because it's so hard to figure out 499 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,040 Sime Gandhi: this out. But I remember something that she said to 500 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:23,119 Sime Gandhi: me that really resonated. Every time she came over, she'd 501 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,679 Sime Gandhi: leap at the chance of wiping a diaper. Everyone that 502 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,159 Sime Gandhi: has kids and just listening to the snows, like that 503 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,120 Sime Gandhi: first year, there are a lot of diapers to change, 504 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,439 Sime Gandhi: and she would jump, I got this diaper, And it 505 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,680 Sime Gandhi: really changed my framing of it because from her perspective, 506 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,840 Sime Gandhi: You've got two minutes of unadulterated attention from this kid, 507 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,800 Sime Gandhi: and that's going to go quickly. We all know these 508 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,720 Sime Gandhi: kids grow so fast and even after she left. When 509 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:50,560 Sime Gandhi: I looked at it that way, not just as a 510 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,920 Sime Gandhi: chore to get done and move on to the next thing, 511 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:55,520 Sime Gandhi: but as a moment where we could play and chat 512 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,120 Sime Gandhi: and do that process, it really changed it. It wasn't 513 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,040 Sime Gandhi: unlock and I I kind of really understood that what 514 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,240 Sime Gandhi: it means to enjoy your child versus seeing them as 515 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,800 Sime Gandhi: obligations or burdens, which is how we kind of grew 516 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,399 Sime Gandhi: up feeling. And when it came to boundaries, you know, 517 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,520 Sime Gandhi: one of my boundaries was I didn't want to leave 518 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,840 Sime Gandhi: him alone with her, and I think on some levels 519 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,160 Sime Gandhi: she probably picked up on that. That wasn't an explicit one. 520 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,240 Sime Gandhi: It was an implicit one, but I was afraid of 521 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,800 Sime Gandhi: what that interaction would look like. And so there were 522 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,840 Sime Gandhi: definite boundaries that were set up along the way. 523 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: Sima was running a multimillion dollar company that was poised 524 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,399 Emily Tisch Sussman: to sell for over five billion, yes billion. She was 525 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:43,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: a young mother, executive and simply put a human just 526 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:46,080 Emily Tisch Sussman: trying to get through it all. When we come back, 527 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,119 Emily Tisch Sussman: she talks us through the gruelly year that changed everything. 528 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,760 Emily Tisch Sussman: So you had some major career highs at the same 529 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:16,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: time that you were having really big personal lows. So 530 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: can you walk us through that twenty nineteen year when 531 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: Plaids sold and things really imploded with your parents. 532 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,280 Sime Gandhi: Yeah, Plaid wasn't an emotion, like just an amazing career experience. 533 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,240 Sime Gandhi: We added a billion dollars of valuation every year while 534 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,720 Sime Gandhi: I was there, and I led the sale to Visa, 535 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,880 Sime Gandhi: which to do a deal, a deal at that magnitude 536 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,760 Sime Gandhi: was just it was an incredible experience. And you know, 537 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,119 Sime Gandhi: my team was growing, the company was growing. There was, 538 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:47,000 Sime Gandhi: as you said, just a lot of positive success on 539 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,680 Sime Gandhi: the horizon over Plaid. And I remember this moment acutely 540 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,879 Sime Gandhi: where my team was about to go present and in 541 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,480 Sime Gandhi: all hands on the amazing work they were doing. I 542 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:58,560 Sime Gandhi: was running all of our bank relationships in our global 543 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:00,960 Sime Gandhi: policy and I got a call on my phone and 544 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,640 Sime Gandhi: it was anonymous number and I picked it up and 545 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,399 Sime Gandhi: it was a collect call from a jail and it 546 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,520 Sime Gandhi: was my dad and something had happened and my mom 547 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,080 Sime Gandhi: had called the police, and I just got that pit 548 00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,160 Sime Gandhi: in my stomach where I'd escaped from this and here 549 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,200 Sime Gandhi: I was, like, my team's about to go do this thing. 550 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,240 Sime Gandhi: I'm you know, supposed to be doing this career thing. 551 00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:23,960 Sime Gandhi: And some things sucked back in. I felt myself falling 552 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,480 Sime Gandhi: into that black hole, and I had to leave work 553 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:28,760 Sime Gandhi: and I got in my car and I went to 554 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,439 Sime Gandhi: go deal with all of that, and I had to 555 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:32,639 Sime Gandhi: go build my dad out and all of this. In 556 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,240 Sime Gandhi: the meanwhile, that pit is growing, and you know, things 557 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:38,760 Sime Gandhi: kind of cascaded from there, and I had to put 558 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,720 Sime Gandhi: on some of that old shield that I developed. My 559 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,280 Sime Gandhi: dad ended up moving in with us, my mom filed 560 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,360 Sime Gandhi: for divorce, and I started compartmentalizing again all of those challenges. 561 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,000 Sime Gandhi: We're trying to focus on my career, and during that 562 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:55,440 Sime Gandhi: time producing thereafter, I ended up leaving Plaid and starting 563 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,640 Sime Gandhi: my own company. So we raised twenty million dollars. We 564 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,880 Sime Gandhi: started a fintech company focused on creators. You're a creator, Emily, 565 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,880 Sime Gandhi: and it was amazing. I learned so much about the 566 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,760 Sime Gandhi: creator industry and the financial underpinnings of that, and I 567 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,080 Sime Gandhi: compartmentalized all of that stuff that was happening on the 568 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,160 Sime Gandhi: personal side of my family so I could focus on 569 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:22,040 Sime Gandhi: growing this company. And in twenty twenty two, sorry twenty 570 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,880 Sime Gandhi: twenty one, got a knock on our door and this 571 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,240 Sime Gandhi: man my husband actually answered the door service papers and 572 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:34,280 Sime Gandhi: my mom suit us she'd suit us, and the feeling, 573 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,200 Sime Gandhi: the shock, the devastation, I mean, without even a conversation 574 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,040 Sime Gandhi: to go sue your own kid and make such heinous 575 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,480 Sime Gandhi: accusations around fraud, and I mean, you name it duress. 576 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,000 Sime Gandhi: And you know, just I knew things were ugly between 577 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,240 Sime Gandhi: my parents, but all of a sudden, that compartment that 578 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,640 Sime Gandhi: I built to separate all of the nastiness that was 579 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,040 Sime Gandhi: happening then from my own life started eroding and I 580 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,520 Sime Gandhi: felt just emotionally sucked into this. And for anyone that's 581 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,960 Sime Gandhi: been through reallyation, it's awful. You spend a lot of 582 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,040 Sime Gandhi: money on lawyers, it's super negative energy, it's a ton 583 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:10,640 Sime Gandhi: of paperwork, it's emotionally got wrenching, let alone when it's 584 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,560 Sime Gandhi: from your own mother. And then she showed us again. 585 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,680 Sime Gandhi: A year later, my son opened the door and the 586 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,720 Sime Gandhi: guy looked at us and yeah, I remember him serving 587 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,760 Sime Gandhi: us papers and looking at me and saying I'm sorry. 588 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:24,800 Sime Gandhi: And so now we were fighting litigation in both New 589 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,840 Sime Gandhi: York State and in California. And you know, starting your 590 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,160 Sime Gandhi: own company first of all, running a team, even at 591 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,920 Sime Gandhi: plaid like is a lot of emotional energy. You're supporting 592 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,440 Sime Gandhi: people emotionally and I think that part is not often 593 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,600 Sime Gandhi: spoken about. I think for good people managers, you really 594 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,320 Sime Gandhi: do have to be emotionally present for your team, because 595 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,200 Sime Gandhi: it's not always just about the work needs. It's also 596 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,360 Sime Gandhi: about making sure that they're growing as people and feeling 597 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:52,440 Sime Gandhi: supported career wise. And I just felt my emotional resilience emptying. 598 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,320 Sime Gandhi: And this is supposed to be the high right, just 599 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,560 Sime Gandhi: got this amazing moment plaid started my own company and 600 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,920 Sime Gandhi: this really interesting, amazing space, and here I was just 601 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:09,560 Sime Gandhi: feeling sucked dry emotionally and in a way, I thought 602 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,840 Sime Gandhi: I'd learned how to cope. 603 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,800 Emily Tisch Sussman: With As your dad was living with you through this, 604 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: he must have also been going through his own journey 605 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: of being able to realize what he had lived through 606 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: being able to separate. Was that did that weigh on 607 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:26,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: you as well? 608 00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:31,680 Sime Gandhi: Yes, there was a lot of emotional sadness and energy there, 609 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,920 Sime Gandhi: but I compartmentalized it and I put that to the 610 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,600 Sime Gandhi: side and I focused on my career because that's what 611 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,280 Sime Gandhi: I knew how to do. And it wasn't until I 612 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,880 Sime Gandhi: got directly sucked in that I realized I couldn't compartmentalize anymore, 613 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,160 Sime Gandhi: and that all of these things that I had done 614 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,000 Sime Gandhi: in my younger life to survive, and that set me 615 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,640 Sime Gandhi: up for success in Silicon Valley. Right, thick skin, Just 616 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,800 Sime Gandhi: keep moving forward, deliver outcomes, keep your eye on the ball, 617 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,960 Sime Gandhi: don't get distracted by emotional talk. 618 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:02,320 Emily Tisch Sussman: Just just go right. 619 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,840 Sime Gandhi: Started coming home a roost, and I couldn't compartmentalize anymore 620 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,680 Sime Gandhi: because now I was part of this negative, negative vortex, 621 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:12,800 Sime Gandhi: and I was dealing with the lawyers, and now I'm 622 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:17,360 Sime Gandhi: dealing with litigation in two places. And yeah, his continued 623 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,640 Sime Gandhi: see him suffering so much, and his inability to be 624 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,840 Sime Gandhi: resilient from that affected me deeply. And then I did. 625 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,640 Sime Gandhi: I did the thing that type a people do. I said, well, 626 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,600 Sime Gandhi: I'm smart, I'm a lawyer. I can solve this. And 627 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,360 Sime Gandhi: so I was joining his weekly calls with lawyers. I 628 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,800 Sime Gandhi: was looking at the motions I was jumping in, and 629 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,400 Sime Gandhi: I figured, if we just spent a year with all 630 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,760 Sime Gandhi: of this energy on this thing and focused on him, 631 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:44,440 Sime Gandhi: that I'm going to be able to solve this problem too. 632 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:46,240 Sime Gandhi: And I can do that, and I can run this company, 633 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,080 Sime Gandhi: and I can be at home and be a wife 634 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,040 Sime Gandhi: and a mother, and you know, not surprising, only that 635 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,040 Sime Gandhi: didn't go the way I thought it would go and 636 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,600 Sime Gandhi: I hit a point where my husband at one point 637 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,320 Sime Gandhi: joked where he said, you know, thirty percent of our 638 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,160 Sime Gandhi: life right now is our conversation asians start exchanging anxiety. 639 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,080 Sime Gandhi: Thirty percent is you know, talking logistics about our son, 640 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,760 Sime Gandhi: thirty percent is exchanging founder anxiety, and ten percent is 641 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:12,120 Sime Gandhi: maybe budging out watching TV. And it just degraded, and 642 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,280 Sime Gandhi: I felt like I wasn't the mom I wanted to 643 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,120 Sime Gandhi: be talk about cycles, and I just felt like I 644 00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,800 Sime Gandhi: was not emotionally present. I felt like I was being 645 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,320 Sime Gandhi: suck dry on so many different fronts. And at one 646 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,400 Sime Gandhi: point my husband said to me, like, how long are 647 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:29,600 Sime Gandhi: we going to keep living like this? And you have 648 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:33,760 Sime Gandhi: to remember this is now four years into the divorce litigation, 649 00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:36,040 Sime Gandhi: it's all off in two years into meeting Soup. I'm 650 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,640 Sime Gandhi: still these both active cases still, as anyone who's been 651 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,360 Sime Gandhi: through litigation or acrimonious litigation knows, it takes a long time. 652 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:44,560 Sime Gandhi: And that was a real low point, which is, oh 653 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,600 Sime Gandhi: my goodness, all of the things that I really prioritized 654 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,000 Sime Gandhi: and I worked so hard to build, like a loving family, 655 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,000 Sime Gandhi: a loving relationship with my husband, like this beautiful relationship 656 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,160 Sime Gandhi: with my son, I'm underminding it all because I'm being 657 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:02,040 Sime Gandhi: sucked into this vortex my family and I'm also trying 658 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,600 Sime Gandhi: to do this company. But these are all the things 659 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:06,640 Sime Gandhi: that I should be able to do. And that was 660 00:34:06,680 --> 00:34:08,520 Sime Gandhi: a real low point. 661 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,680 Emily Tisch Sussman: How did your perspective change as a result of that 662 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,359 Emily Tisch Sussman: low point? And then what did you do about it? 663 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,719 Sime Gandhi: I decided to prioritize what was important to me. That 664 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,520 Sime Gandhi: was my family, right, my husband and my son, And 665 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,120 Sime Gandhi: I think for me, professional women, we kind of define 666 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,200 Sime Gandhi: a part of ourselves by how a career success is unfold. 667 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:34,520 Sime Gandhi: It was really hard to say that maybe being CEO 668 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,640 Sime Gandhi: of this company isn't the best thing for me right now, 669 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,040 Sime Gandhi: and to even contemplate in my mind, I was like, 670 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,840 Sime Gandhi: oh my gosh, am I giving up on this company? 671 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,040 Sime Gandhi: Am I quitting this company? My failing people? Right? I 672 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,600 Sime Gandhi: had female investors and that meant so much to me 673 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,759 Sime Gandhi: because I want to perpetuate female founders and female investors. 674 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,480 Sime Gandhi: And you know at a certain point, though, that you 675 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,359 Sime Gandhi: can't carry the weight of the world on your back, right, 676 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,440 Sime Gandhi: And maybe we put too much pressure on ourselves in 677 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,120 Sime Gandhi: that way. And it was really a calculus where I 678 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,520 Sime Gandhi: think everyone goes through stuff in their lives, and it's 679 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:10,600 Sime Gandhi: harder for women to take pauses I'm putting that in 680 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:15,480 Sime Gandhi: air quotes, or to deviate off the more commonly traveled path. 681 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,880 Sime Gandhi: But in some ways I felt like I didn't have 682 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,080 Sime Gandhi: a choice because I couldn't really be the CEO that 683 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,520 Sime Gandhi: I wanted to be and also maintain my personal life. 684 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,799 Sime Gandhi: And I needed to just start getting things off my 685 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,960 Sime Gandhi: plate that weren't giving me energy because I needed to 686 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,719 Sime Gandhi: recover and focus on being me again. And so you know, 687 00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,680 Sime Gandhi: I started thinking about ways to manage the business, and 688 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,000 Sime Gandhi: we ended up selling the business, which was amazing, and 689 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,560 Sime Gandhi: our investors were incredibly supportive through that process. But that 690 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,520 Sime Gandhi: was hard. That was a hard conversation to have, right 691 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,200 Sime Gandhi: because I felt like I was not living up to 692 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,799 Sime Gandhi: the expectations of a founder that is all in and 693 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,200 Sime Gandhi: doing what they're supposed to do to make that company 694 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,680 Sime Gandhi: a massive success. And I started investing in myself through 695 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,520 Sime Gandhi: therapy and running and trying to let go of my 696 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,839 Sime Gandhi: anger and really process what had happened between me and 697 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,240 Sime Gandhi: my mom and letting go of these concepts of guilt 698 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,120 Sime Gandhi: and selfishness that I think I'd carried around for a 699 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,800 Sime Gandhi: long time, and understanding that. You know, I think sometimes 700 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,839 Sime Gandhi: as women, we put a lot of these burdens on 701 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:23,160 Sime Gandhi: care on ourselves. Like I think the reality is reality. 702 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,520 Sime Gandhi: Women tend to be caretakers more in the mails today 703 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,359 Sime Gandhi: at least. And I had to let go of those 704 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,000 Sime Gandhi: things that it wasn't my responsibility. And I know that 705 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:33,920 Sime Gandhi: sounds simple. It's like, obviously that's not your fault, ear 706 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:35,839 Sime Gandhi: Walm suit you, But you know, there was a lot 707 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,319 Sime Gandhi: of oh my gosh, what I do to cause this right? 708 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,080 Sime Gandhi: And I think this go back to the earlier parts 709 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,080 Sime Gandhi: of the conversation. We're living with folks that have meant 710 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,040 Sime Gandhi: to Illness can be so hard because it can also 711 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:50,319 Sime Gandhi: be so manipulative and so passive, aggressive in ways that 712 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,960 Sime Gandhi: aren't so easy to articulate or pinpoint. And these lines 713 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,160 Sime Gandhi: can be so gray, and for a lot of years, 714 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,479 Sime Gandhi: until she sued me, it was gray, and I still 715 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,120 Sime Gandhi: wanted her in my life, I still wanted our family, 716 00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,200 Sime Gandhi: and so realizing that I didn't really have a choice 717 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,200 Sime Gandhi: at that point and letting that go, letting the notions 718 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,600 Sime Gandhi: of having a mother go, it's really hard. And I 719 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,239 Sime Gandhi: think anyone who's lost a parent might relate on some 720 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,880 Sime Gandhi: level the grief of letting that go. But for me 721 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,439 Sime Gandhi: it was a little bit different because she wasn't dead, 722 00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:22,879 Sime Gandhi: she was alive. She made a choice and I felt 723 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,560 Sime Gandhi: so alone through that process. And yet one in four 724 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,680 Sime Gandhi: Americans are estranged from a close family member, but we 725 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,640 Sime Gandhi: don't talk about it with the same precision or openness 726 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,879 Sime Gandhi: as we do grief, right or mental illness even and 727 00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,960 Sime Gandhi: estrangement is really hard and it's isolating, and I need 728 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,439 Sime Gandhi: to figure that out for myself as well. 729 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,879 Emily Tisch Sussman: After Sima left Blaed, she took a pause, but only 730 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:50,360 Emily Tisch Sussman: a brief one. That same year, she launched her own company, 731 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: Creative Juice, which was designed to give individual creators the 732 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: tools and support needed to reach their full potential. But 733 00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,560 Emily Tisch Sussman: the ongoing lawsuit with her mother and the pressures of 734 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: wanting to be present with her own family all became 735 00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:24,040 Emily Tisch Sussman: too much, and she made the tough choice to step away. 736 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: When you were deciding to prioritize your personal and step 737 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: away and then eventually sell Creative Juice, did you have 738 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:35,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: an external narrative around it, like for your board, for 739 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: your investors, where you're saying, oh, you know, I'm going 740 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: to sell because I think this is the right time 741 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,479 Emily Tisch Sussman: in the market or how much transparency did you give 742 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: that it was for personal reasons with two of. 743 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,279 Sime Gandhi: My board members, one board member, one board advisor. I 744 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,719 Sime Gandhi: feel very fortunate that I could have an open conversation 745 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:54,480 Sime Gandhi: with them and explain to them what was really going on. 746 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:56,640 Sime Gandhi: It was at the point where I couldn't even talk 747 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:59,560 Sime Gandhi: about it without crying. I was just so gutted, especially 748 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,439 Sime Gandhi: in the second time getting sued. You think you come 749 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,560 Sime Gandhi: to terms the first time, and then it happens again. 750 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,160 Sime Gandhi: It's like I just recover from this, and you just 751 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,520 Sime Gandhi: threw me another punch, and the punch is just felt 752 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,200 Sime Gandhi: like they kept on coming. And part of it was 753 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:15,359 Sime Gandhi: I wasn't able to emotionally like go of her and 754 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,200 Sime Gandhi: that relationship and this idea of my mother doing this 755 00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,800 Sime Gandhi: to me. And I think that's part of the process 756 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,360 Sime Gandhi: of estrangement, which can mean so many different things, But 757 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,680 Sime Gandhi: to me, it was kind of letting go of that 758 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,399 Sime Gandhi: emotional connection. But at that point when I was having 759 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,759 Sime Gandhi: the conversations with my board, it was a real conversation, 760 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,319 Sime Gandhi: and I can't underscore how much it meant to have 761 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,839 Sime Gandhi: that support and that understanding and for them to see 762 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,680 Sime Gandhi: what was happening and appreciate that I couldn't be the 763 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,400 Sime Gandhi: CEO that I wanted to be, But at the same time, 764 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,399 Sime Gandhi: with others outside of that close knit circle, I did 765 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:51,480 Sime Gandhi: feel they need to have an external narrative. I wasn't 766 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,319 Sime Gandhi: ready at the time to say, well, my mom sued 767 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:56,160 Sime Gandhi: me two times and so I need to go take 768 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,719 Sime Gandhi: her myself. I felt like a big bomb to drop 769 00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:01,799 Sime Gandhi: on the people, and it wasn't an answer that I 770 00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,520 Sime Gandhi: felt like I could give appropriately. And so, you know, 771 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,480 Sime Gandhi: we were fortunate that Juice was in a healthy position 772 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,640 Sime Gandhi: and the creator economy was hot, and we found a 773 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,480 Sime Gandhi: great place for it to be, and so that was, 774 00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,560 Sime Gandhi: you know, a pretty straightforward story to understand. But there 775 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,680 Sime Gandhi: are a lot of people that didn't understand why I'd 776 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,400 Sime Gandhi: want to sell. The story I would say was, you know, 777 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,800 Sime Gandhi: the business wasn't a healthy enough place where we were fortunate, 778 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,279 Sime Gandhi: we had a great offer, and I decided that it 779 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,000 Sime Gandhi: was the best thing for the business, and that was 780 00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,560 Sime Gandhi: the story. And a lot of people would leave it 781 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:37,840 Sime Gandhi: at that say congrat it's awesome, and it was always like, 782 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:39,440 Sime Gandhi: what are you going to do next? And you know, 783 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,920 Sime Gandhi: I think for me, the answer I would just give us. Look, 784 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,279 Sime Gandhi: I'm focused on the integration and wrapping that up and 785 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,960 Sime Gandhi: I just need to take a breather. And that was 786 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,520 Sime Gandhi: fine for most people, but they'd say, what are you 787 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,799 Sime Gandhi: starting your X company? Let us know, right, And it 788 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:54,880 Sime Gandhi: was just so interesting. There's always that expectation of what 789 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:57,360 Sime Gandhi: are you doing next, which I had to also let 790 00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,960 Sime Gandhi: go of, and you know, writing a book and say 791 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:02,840 Sime Gandhi: I'm going to go write a book that felt almost 792 00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,359 Sime Gandhi: frivolous to me. Right, It's like, what about my career, 793 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,080 Sime Gandhi: my actual career, What am I going to do that's 794 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,920 Sime Gandhi: actually something real like And it's just letting go of 795 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,440 Sime Gandhi: these preconceived notions. Is still a work in progress, but 796 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:18,360 Sime Gandhi: I think for I'm honestly just excited about where the 797 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,760 Sime Gandhi: path takes me from here. And it's not a clear one, 798 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,880 Sime Gandhi: but my hope is that it will help me or 799 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,680 Sime Gandhi: that I can find meaning and satisfaction in the things 800 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,600 Sime Gandhi: that I feel really passionately about. And also I still 801 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,520 Sime Gandhi: have a little bit of an entrepreneurial spirit and I 802 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,680 Sime Gandhi: don't know how it's going to manifest itself, but being 803 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,200 Sime Gandhi: open to manifesting in different ways and trusting not to 804 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,840 Sime Gandhi: sound too spiritual, but trusting the universe to manifest that 805 00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:43,520 Sime Gandhi: energy in a good way while I put out good 806 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,919 Sime Gandhi: energy and live my life is something that has taken 807 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,600 Sime Gandhi: me time to trust. But you know, I'm trying to trust. 808 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,839 Emily Tisch Sussman: Were you able to find any community in people who 809 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,920 Emily Tisch Sussman: had gone through something similar or did you find it 810 00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:58,479 Emily Tisch Sussman: somewhere else. 811 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,480 Sime Gandhi: So one of the things I started doing after I 812 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,160 Sime Gandhi: sold Joe was I started writing a book. It was 813 00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,279 Sime Gandhi: also I felt a calling to tell this story. I 814 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,600 Sime Gandhi: felt like this crazy thing had happen to me. And 815 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,799 Sime Gandhi: I think realizing that I needed to let go of 816 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,360 Sime Gandhi: the traditional career pillars of success like writing my company 817 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,200 Sime Gandhi: and doing all this and taking the time for myself 818 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:22,200 Sime Gandhi: to explore this book, and these processes helped me articulate 819 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:24,920 Sime Gandhi: these feelings of estrangement and these emotions in a way 820 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,560 Sime Gandhi: that I didn't I couldn't do before. And I have 821 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,560 Sime Gandhi: to say when I started telling people about the book, 822 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,600 Sime Gandhi: and I think sometimes even now, I'm still trying to 823 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,120 Sime Gandhi: figure this out. I think, you know, and a lot 824 00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,800 Sime Gandhi: of times we want these clean arcs of a story, 825 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,719 Sime Gandhi: like oh, okay, and then you reach the slow point 826 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:42,600 Sime Gandhi: and then it's up and everything's like wrapped in a 827 00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:45,280 Sime Gandhi: bow and solved, and the reality is I'm still figuring 828 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,600 Sime Gandhi: out every day things happen, and I'm still trying to 829 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,120 Sime Gandhi: be resilient and move forward. And sometimes when I tell 830 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,040 Sime Gandhi: people I'm writing a book on estrangement, honestly, I'm not 831 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:57,000 Sime Gandhi: sure what to expect. I feel shamed sometimes because I 832 00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,799 Sime Gandhi: grew up in this context, and I think a lot 833 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,440 Sime Gandhi: of us share of strong or place a strong premium 834 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:03,920 Sime Gandhi: on famie values like families, and we take care of 835 00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,719 Sime Gandhi: her families. And so when I say I'm a strange 836 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,160 Sime Gandhi: from my mom, largely my brother like, it's like, oh, 837 00:43:10,200 --> 00:43:12,400 Sime Gandhi: what'd you do? What's wrong with you? Why do you 838 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,360 Sime Gandhi: alienate your family? But I have to say in the 839 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,120 Sime Gandhi: last couple of months is kind of as I've started 840 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,600 Sime Gandhi: talking more about this, even at random cocktail parties and 841 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,360 Sime Gandhi: trying to become more comfortable about talking about the subject, 842 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,200 Sime Gandhi: I've been shocked by how many people have said to me, 843 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,920 Sime Gandhi: did you know I'm a strange with X? In a 844 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:34,880 Sime Gandhi: way that I just I would not have expected. And 845 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:36,400 Sime Gandhi: just a couple of weeks ago, I was at a 846 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,520 Sime Gandhi: cocktail party in DC, and again, this is a professional 847 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,000 Sime Gandhi: cocktail party. You're not working, you're talking, and there's this 848 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,680 Sime Gandhi: woman and I end up chatting with her a little bit. 849 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:48,440 Sime Gandhi: She said, what are you up to? And you know 850 00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,759 Sime Gandhi: my answer is not clean cut. Right now, I advise companies, 851 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,080 Sime Gandhi: I starting this coalition thing, and I'm writing a book 852 00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,760 Sime Gandhi: and it's not a clean answer with a clean title 853 00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,960 Sime Gandhi: at a company. And she said, oh, like, what's the 854 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,120 Sime Gandhi: book about? And I told her and she said again, 855 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:04,560 Sime Gandhi: this is like your archetype of a very professional woe 856 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,560 Sime Gandhi: with the perfect blow dried hair and the right title 857 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,120 Sime Gandhi: and the right company. She said, you know, I'm a 858 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:12,160 Sime Gandhi: strange for my father, and let me tell you why. 859 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:15,960 Sime Gandhi: And we had a twenty minute conversation at this professional context, 860 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,880 Sime Gandhi: and it's just really struck me how much this is 861 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:21,759 Sime Gandhi: a part of so many people's lives. And I'm still 862 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:23,640 Sime Gandhi: struggling to figure out how to talk about it in 863 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,799 Sime Gandhi: a way that doesn't feel sheepish. But I think the 864 00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,680 Sime Gandhi: power in that story is that these things that happen 865 00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,680 Sime Gandhi: in our personal lives also affect us professionally. And I 866 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,880 Sime Gandhi: think for me, at least, compartmentalizing and suppressing all of 867 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,680 Sime Gandhi: this personal yuckiness and messiness came home to roost in 868 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:43,960 Sime Gandhi: a way where I couldn't do that anymore. It just 869 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,879 Sime Gandhi: physically emotionally was gutted and it made me deal with it. 870 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:53,200 Sime Gandhi: And now I'm doing a lot of weird stuff. I'm 871 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,040 Sime Gandhi: doing things that bring me energy though I love what 872 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,400 Sime Gandhi: I do, and it's not a clean answer, and that's scary. 873 00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,720 Sime Gandhi: People say what do you do? I can't say I'm 874 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,359 Sime Gandhi: eas or I'm president at ex company and they're like, okay, cool, 875 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,680 Sime Gandhi: like whatever, You're doing your thing. And not being on 876 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,360 Sime Gandhi: that hamster wheel and not getting that external validation is 877 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,880 Sime Gandhi: a hard thing when for so many years we've driven 878 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,839 Sime Gandhi: for the accolades and the things that project seniority, and 879 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:19,320 Sime Gandhi: you know, sometimes there's a part of me that thinks, 880 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,239 Sime Gandhi: should I be still thinking about that? Should I go 881 00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,840 Sime Gandhi: for that title? Like what is my external projection there? 882 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,480 Sime Gandhi: And that's still a work in progress. But it's just remembering, 883 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,920 Sime Gandhi: you know, what brings me strength and working towards that. 884 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,600 Emily Tisch Sussman: You've talked about feeling empowered by these decisions like the 885 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:43,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: estrangement and then also leaving your company. You can tell 886 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:45,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: us more about that empowerment that you feel now. 887 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,799 Sime Gandhi: I think that I had felt so trapped by the 888 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,200 Sime Gandhi: time I was ready to make these decisions, so forced 889 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,440 Sime Gandhi: into doing the things that everyone expected me to do that. 890 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:58,319 Sime Gandhi: To break free of that, to feel like I could 891 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:03,239 Sime Gandhi: breathe and be myself felt so to say I am 892 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:06,359 Sime Gandhi: not the best CEO for this company anymore, and it's 893 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,400 Sime Gandhi: time to make a decision about that, and to receive 894 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,879 Sime Gandhi: then that support through that process and then to come 895 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,080 Sime Gandhi: out the other end and then feel like that energy 896 00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,520 Sime Gandhi: could be restored back to me, felt like I could 897 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:20,800 Sime Gandhi: control my life again in a way. And there's a 898 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,640 Sime Gandhi: lot about my life I can't control right now, this 899 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:25,040 Sime Gandhi: litigation being one of them and a big part of it. 900 00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:28,239 Sime Gandhi: But to let go of that and focus on the 901 00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,719 Sime Gandhi: things that could bring me energy is empowering. So estrangement, 902 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,800 Sime Gandhi: even I think it means so many things to different people, 903 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,640 Sime Gandhi: And for a long time, even after my mom sued me, 904 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:39,600 Sime Gandhi: there is probably a false hope of me that wanted 905 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,680 Sime Gandhi: or thought about reconciliation and a deep sadness there around 906 00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,080 Sime Gandhi: the things that we were losing right or family traditions. 907 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,040 Sime Gandhi: My mom is an excellent cook, and she makes things 908 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,920 Sime Gandhi: that I loved growing up that I could never find 909 00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:56,600 Sime Gandhi: in a restaurant or somewhere else. And to know that 910 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,719 Sime Gandhi: my son would never get to experience any of that 911 00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,160 Sime Gandhi: made me really sad. It's like, why are we? Why? Right? 912 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:06,319 Sime Gandhi: For what? To know that we would never take trips 913 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,880 Sime Gandhi: to India together as a family. I mean, me traveling 914 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,000 Sime Gandhi: to India is probably like you traveling to India, Emily, 915 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:13,239 Sime Gandhi: maybe you'd do it better than I would, actually right, 916 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,319 Sime Gandhi: And to feel like my parents would not be able 917 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,680 Sime Gandhi: to be there to pass on some of that cultural 918 00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,160 Sime Gandhi: knowledge to my son is sad. And it took a 919 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,040 Sime Gandhi: long time. And it wasn't even really until I saw 920 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,120 Sime Gandhi: her when she deposed me that I could really let 921 00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,839 Sime Gandhi: go of that emotional connection and then start feeling again 922 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,680 Sime Gandhi: empowered by where we were in this relationship and me 923 00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,839 Sime Gandhi: letting go of those expectations. And I guess that's where 924 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:38,760 Sime Gandhi: that sense of empowerment comes from. Is we can't always 925 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:40,759 Sime Gandhi: control the things that happen to us, but we can 926 00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,759 Sime Gandhi: control how we respond or react to them. And that's 927 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,160 Sime Gandhi: not an overnight process for me. I have to say, 928 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,279 Sime Gandhi: It's been what maybe a year and a half since 929 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,160 Sime Gandhi: I sold Juice and started making these decisions to focus 930 00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:58,200 Sime Gandhi: on my own self, and I'm just now starting to 931 00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,000 Sime Gandhi: feel more like me. So it takes time. 932 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:02,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: I asked this question of all of my guests. But 933 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:06,280 Emily Tisch Sussman: what is something you saw as a like a negative 934 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:08,960 Emily Tisch Sussman: or a low point in your life, but now in 935 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: hindsight you see it, maybe not necessarily as a positive, 936 00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,279 Emily Tisch Sussman: but having put you on the path to where you 937 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:15,919 Emily Tisch Sussman: are right now. 938 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,919 Sime Gandhi: I mean, it's probably getting sued by my mom, right 939 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,560 Sime Gandhi: Like at that point, I felt so victimized. I felt 940 00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:29,440 Sime Gandhi: so violated, right like, how could someone come in and 941 00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,960 Sime Gandhi: say all these things and cause so much pain and 942 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:38,440 Sime Gandhi: drag me through this for what? For what? Right? And 943 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,080 Sime Gandhi: I felt so hurt, and you know, I felt sorry 944 00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,000 Sime Gandhi: for myself, like why why do I have to go 945 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,520 Sime Gandhi: spend money, the time, the energy into this when I 946 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,560 Sime Gandhi: could you know, I presented some of the people that 947 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,719 Sime Gandhi: had these loving families who were so supportive, and even 948 00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:55,480 Sime Gandhi: after I sold Juice, which I say partly I just 949 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,719 Sime Gandhi: I couldn't keep going. I resented why do I have 950 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,440 Sime Gandhi: to do these things to take care of myself? Like 951 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,439 Sime Gandhi: what's the opportunity cost here? Like I should I could 952 00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,040 Sime Gandhi: be investing in my career, I could be doing all 953 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,440 Sime Gandhi: of these things, and here I am quit at therapy 954 00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,839 Sime Gandhi: and trying to run and like manage my anger and 955 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:15,360 Sime Gandhi: stop feeling sorry for myself and I just felt so 956 00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:17,200 Sime Gandhi: mad at my mom too. It's like why did she 957 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,759 Sime Gandhi: It's like I survived my childhood and I made it out. 958 00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,440 Sime Gandhi: I created a professional success for myself. I thought I'd 959 00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,560 Sime Gandhi: stripped away all of that, and then it all came 960 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:28,360 Sime Gandhi: back and like punched me in the god again and 961 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,600 Sime Gandhi: then again because she sued me again. So I'd say 962 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,400 Sime Gandhi: that was a real low point. And you know, my 963 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:38,560 Sime Gandhi: marriage was at risk and all of these things and 964 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,600 Sime Gandhi: forcing myself, but it forced me to have to deal 965 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,120 Sime Gandhi: with it, and I'd like to think that I'm wiser 966 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,560 Sime Gandhi: now two years later, you know, from kind of creating 967 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:53,160 Sime Gandhi: a deliberate step to go invest in myself then I 968 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,160 Sime Gandhi: was before that, and that if I hadn't had those 969 00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,960 Sime Gandhi: things happen to me, probably still be on the conventional trey. 970 00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,640 Sime Gandhi: I'd still be doing the things that people expected me 971 00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,480 Sime Gandhi: to do. I'd still be running a company. Maybe I'd 972 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:07,239 Sime Gandhi: love it, maybe I wouldn't, but I'd still be doing 973 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,319 Sime Gandhi: it right and right now, it's forced me to say 974 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,040 Sime Gandhi: what do I love to do? And everything I do 975 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,799 Sime Gandhi: today I do because I love to do it. Even 976 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,359 Sime Gandhi: writing the book was an exercise, and oh my gosh, 977 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,840 Sime Gandhi: I'm going to go spend all of this time doing 978 00:50:21,880 --> 00:50:23,880 Sime Gandhi: this thing. I could at the end of the day 979 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,000 Sime Gandhi: just end up being a very long diary that my 980 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,120 Sime Gandhi: child reads one day. Like, I don't know that it 981 00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,160 Sime Gandhi: has an outcome. I don't know that it's going to 982 00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:33,680 Sime Gandhi: have a success. And that is that is a new 983 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,120 Sime Gandhi: muscle for me, and I'm still figuring it all out. 984 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,799 Sime Gandhi: But my hope is that it helps put me on 985 00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:43,120 Sime Gandhi: the path to building a life like that's joyful and 986 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,400 Sime Gandhi: full of things that I love to do. You know, 987 00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,120 Sime Gandhi: we ski today. I get to pick up my kid 988 00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:51,560 Sime Gandhi: from school. In most days, I get to do really 989 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,800 Sime Gandhi: interesting things at work. And I may not have that fancy, 990 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,759 Sime Gandhi: big title, people may not really understand what I do. 991 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,719 Sime Gandhi: And being okay with all of that because I'm letting 992 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,080 Sime Gandhi: go of that external validation is not something I would 993 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,640 Sime Gandhi: have been able to do had all of this not 994 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,920 Sime Gandhi: happened to me. And I like to say in life 995 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,919 Sime Gandhi: that sure, you make lemonade out of lemons, but that's 996 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,640 Sime Gandhi: your decision to take that situation and do that with 997 00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:23,600 Sime Gandhi: And I'd like to say that I'm doing that pretty successfully. 998 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,239 Sime Gandhi: I still think I have a lot of work to 999 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,800 Sime Gandhi: keep doing and investing myself and I constantly challenge myself 1000 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,600 Sime Gandhi: to get comfortable not knowing where this journey is going 1001 00:51:32,600 --> 00:51:34,200 Sime Gandhi: to go. I think sometimes I look at my friends 1002 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:38,120 Sime Gandhi: that are now see sweet at public companies, and I 1003 00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:39,320 Sime Gandhi: kind of know what their shock is going to be. 1004 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:40,400 Sime Gandhi: They're going to do that, and they're going to go 1005 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:43,480 Sime Gandhi: join some public company boards and then they'll probably do that, 1006 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,120 Sime Gandhi: and it's like, Okay, I get that story. I don't 1007 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,160 Sime Gandhi: know where my storyline is going to go, and I 1008 00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,520 Sime Gandhi: sometimes I feel fomo, It's like, am I leaving the 1009 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,279 Sime Gandhi: kind of impact on the world what I want to leave? 1010 00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,000 Sime Gandhi: I don't know. But I try to really root myself 1011 00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,799 Sime Gandhi: in the gratitude for having such a flexible life right now. 1012 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,480 Sime Gandhi: Lets me take care of myself. Let me say have 1013 00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:06,080 Sime Gandhi: conversations like this with you that lets me do the 1014 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:10,839 Sime Gandhi: work that I find impactful, and I'm excited about where 1015 00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:11,360 Sime Gandhi: that goes. 1016 00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: Do you think you'll pivot again? 1017 00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:19,000 Sime Gandhi: I feel like, yes, I think that I don't know 1018 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:22,280 Sime Gandhi: where this journey is going, and I think what I 1019 00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:25,840 Sime Gandhi: am more open to now are that pivots are natural 1020 00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:29,359 Sime Gandhi: and that they'll work out. They feel scary, and I'm 1021 00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,840 Sime Gandhi: much more open to those than I used to be. 1022 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,080 Sime Gandhi: I think before it felt like a ladder, right you 1023 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,399 Sime Gandhi: kind of have to climb it, and there's judgments made 1024 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,399 Sime Gandhi: on what's a vertical move and what's a lateral move. 1025 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,799 Sime Gandhi: And I've become much more accepting of the more holistic 1026 00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:48,560 Sime Gandhi: nature of our lives and the ability to have really 1027 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:54,120 Sime Gandhi: impactful careers that aren't just driven by titles. Like I 1028 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,000 Sime Gandhi: used to think. I'm like, oh, sim don't talk that way. 1029 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,960 Sime Gandhi: That's not You're just sound like a loser. Just go 1030 00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:00,480 Sime Gandhi: in for it, right, Like that was really the voice 1031 00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:02,719 Sime Gandhi: inside of my head. And I think in some ways 1032 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,160 Sime Gandhi: that's so limiting, right, And I look at some of 1033 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,000 Sime Gandhi: my peers now and I feel like I've become a 1034 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,439 Sime Gandhi: little bit of a go take that risk, Go start 1035 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:13,440 Sime Gandhi: that law firm by yourself. Sure, are you living the 1036 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:15,960 Sime Gandhi: big name thing and you want to go do this 1037 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,319 Sime Gandhi: special type of practice and it's just going to be 1038 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:20,400 Sime Gandhi: you and nobody's going to understand it for five years. 1039 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,840 Sime Gandhi: But that's okay, right, find the joy and do impactful 1040 00:53:23,880 --> 00:53:27,480 Sime Gandhi: work and don't focus so much on the hamster wheel product. 1041 00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,040 Sime Gandhi: And I hope that that leads to a more joyful 1042 00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,720 Sime Gandhi: and impactful career and all of that stuff will solve 1043 00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:38,320 Sime Gandhi: for itself. But it is a scary prospect. And again, 1044 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,200 Sime Gandhi: I wouldn't have appreciated this pivot for what it is, 1045 00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,279 Sime Gandhi: and I don't think i'd be as open to other 1046 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,560 Sime Gandhi: more quote unquote unconventional pivots had it not been for 1047 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:51,319 Sime Gandhi: what I did over the last year. And my hope 1048 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:55,360 Sime Gandhi: is that as more and more women take pivots and 1049 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,120 Sime Gandhi: do these things that are unconventional, it becomes a lot 1050 00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:02,120 Sime Gandhi: more accepted versus feeling like we have to be trapped 1051 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,400 Sime Gandhi: right or on a certain type of career trajectory in 1052 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:08,839 Sime Gandhi: order to exert seniority. 1053 00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,719 Emily Tisch Sussman: Seema, thank you so much. It's an incredible conversation. 1054 00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,359 Sime Gandhi: Emily, thank you so much for having me. It's so 1055 00:54:16,400 --> 00:54:18,480 Sime Gandhi: great to see you again. It's crazy to think that 1056 00:54:18,719 --> 00:54:21,360 Sime Gandhi: we work together what fifteen years ago, and here we 1057 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,680 Sime Gandhi: are today. I really appreciate you taking the time to 1058 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:26,239 Sime Gandhi: hear the story and to have me. 1059 00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,799 Emily Tisch Sussman: Sema now lives back on the East Coast with her 1060 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: husband and son. Well, she may not have a clean 1061 00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,720 Emily Tisch Sussman: title like we all want to have, she's found peace 1062 00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,480 Emily Tisch Sussman: in her pivot. Sema doesn't have an Instagram, so follow 1063 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:43,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: us to stay up to date with Sema on her 1064 00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,359 Emily Tisch Sussman: latest and her future book, Talk to you next week. 1065 00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I 1066 00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us 1067 00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:56,959 Emily Tisch Sussman: a rating and tell your friends about us. To learn 1068 00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,840 Emily Tisch Sussman: more about our guests, follow us on Instagram she pivots 1069 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:03,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter where you 1070 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:07,520 Emily Tisch Sussman: can get exclusive behind the scenes content on our website 1071 00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:14,440 Emily Tisch Sussman: at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was produced 1072 00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,880 Emily Tisch Sussman: and edited by Emily at Avelosk, with sound editing and 1073 00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,640 Emily Tisch Sussman: mixing from Nina Pollock. Audio production and social media by 1074 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:26,000 Emily Tisch Sussman: Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and planning 1075 00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,160 Emily Tisch Sussman: by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is proud 1076 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,120 Emily Tisch Sussman: to be a part of the iHeart Podcast Network. I 1077 00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:36,200 Emily Tisch Sussman: endorse t Pivots