Speaker 1: Demali Peterman is a highly reguarded and sought after lawyer, mediator, negotiator, educator,
Speaker 1: and speaker with nearly twenty years of experience in the
Speaker 1: alternative dispute resolution field. She's founder and CEO of two companies,
Speaker 1: Breakthrough ADR and Demali Law. Her new book, Negotiating While Black,
Speaker 1: helps you leverage your unique strends and walk away with
Speaker 1: the best possible deal. So the first thing you might
Speaker 1: think about when we talk about negotiation might be compensation.
Speaker 1: So since she's specifically talking to black people, how bad
Speaker 1: are we at negotiating count Black Tech Green Money is
Speaker 1: a production of Blavity Afro Tech on the Black Effect
Speaker 1: podcast network in iHeartMedia and it's produced by Morgan Debonn
Speaker 1: and me Well Lucas, with additional production support by Kate
Speaker 1: McDonald and Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis
Speaker 1: and Sarah Ergan. Learn more about my guests and other
Speaker 1: tech disruptors and innovators at afrotech dot com. The video
Speaker 1: version of this episode will chop to Black Tech Green
Speaker 1: Money on YouTube. So tap in joining Black Tech Green Money.
Speaker 1: Share this with somebody, I'll get your money. He's in love.
Speaker 1: So typically when people write books like this is because
Speaker 1: they see a need in the marketplace, they see a
Speaker 1: need in their community, or otherwise see a need somewhere.
Speaker 1: So let's start with compensation. How bad are we at
Speaker 1: negotiating compensation?
Speaker 2: You know, when it comes to compensation, I see a
Speaker 2: lot of recurring issues. Right. One, people are really afraid
Speaker 2: of hearing no. And sometimes it's that fear of getting
Speaker 2: that know And you can call it whatever you want.
Speaker 2: You can call it a confrontation, you can call it rejection,
Speaker 2: whatever the case may be. But it's that fear of
Speaker 2: hearing the know that in the first place may even
Speaker 2: prevent the person from mustering up the courage to ask, right.
Speaker 2: And then two, once you get that actual no, that
Speaker 2: might stall the conversation and prevent you from advancing your needs.
Speaker 2: And so I don't know if it's that and then
Speaker 2: the other The third thing that I see too is
Speaker 2: that people feel as though, how do you assess your value? Right?
Speaker 2: How do you when you're talking about comp especially if
Speaker 2: you're in an industry that's not transparent in terms of
Speaker 2: what people with your education experience, marketability, your specific set
Speaker 2: of skills, right are earning? How do you know how
Speaker 2: to how to align your value with your ask, and
Speaker 2: especially if there's a set amount. So when I think
Speaker 2: about comp, I think about pre comp so before you
Speaker 2: get that job, right before you're responding to an ad
Speaker 2: or what have you, and you currently do not work there,
Speaker 2: and so you're like, okay, maybe there's a salary range
Speaker 2: and you're trying to figure out where you put yourself
Speaker 2: in that range, and so that's that's hard to say.
Speaker 2: One thing that people use, of course, is what they're
Speaker 2: currently earning if they're already in the field, so that
Speaker 2: that's kind of a marker in many jurisdictions. However, it
Speaker 2: is not permissible legally, as a recruiter can't ask and
Speaker 2: the company can't ask what you're currently making. For example,
Speaker 2: in New York, recruiters can't ask you and companies can't
Speaker 2: ask you what your current salary is. And that's because historically,
Speaker 2: many people of color, I mean, people who check different
Speaker 2: boxes were not compensated fairly and they couldn't kind of
Speaker 2: move out of that bracket to the next bracket because
Speaker 2: they would have to say what they were being paid.
Speaker 2: So if you were already being underpaid and then you
Speaker 2: have to then tell that to the next person, while
Speaker 2: will they be incentivized to pay you what you're worth
Speaker 2: or your value or even what the market could bear.
Speaker 2: If you're making, you know, five thousand dollars, then you
Speaker 2: can be making one hundred thousand dollars. And so when
Speaker 2: it comes to comp if it's pre meaning you haven't
Speaker 2: started there. I really like to encourage people to ask
Speaker 2: for what you want and ask for what you need, right,
Speaker 2: and think about why you're asking for what you want.
Speaker 2: Is it pecked to what you believe your value is?
Speaker 2: Is it what you know the market will bear? What
Speaker 2: information do you have because because information is power, So
Speaker 2: what information do you have that you can use in
Speaker 2: that conversation. The other part of it will is if
Speaker 2: you already work somewhere, right, so you already worked there
Speaker 2: and now you're like ready to seek a pay increase
Speaker 2: or are you trying to have a pay something where
Speaker 2: you know you are already there, but you're doing more work.
Speaker 2: Maybe they give you more responsibilities because someone left, or
Speaker 2: they restructure the organization and now more has fallen on
Speaker 2: your shoulders, but they haven't sort of trued up if
Speaker 2: you will for how much they should be paying you
Speaker 2: so there are different reasons someone could want a salary
Speaker 2: increase when they're already employed somewhere that is sometimes more
Speaker 2: difficult to do too, right, because you don't want to
Speaker 2: maybe you don't want to ruffle any feathers, or you
Speaker 2: don't want to come across the wrong way. Maybe the
Speaker 2: market in general is bad. And so they're all these
Speaker 2: things that people sort of tell themselves as to why
Speaker 2: they shouldn't ask for more, tell themselves as still okay
Speaker 2: if they say no, I'm just going to stop no.
Speaker 2: So when it comes to conversation, I don't think we're
Speaker 2: bad at it. I just think that there are many reasons,
Speaker 2: both like systemically and also economically, like just thinking about
Speaker 2: general economics, and of course just like the the emotional
Speaker 2: roller coaster that you may have internally when you're trying
Speaker 2: to muster up the courage to even make their requests.
Speaker 2: And then what happens if they say no? I have
Speaker 2: people ask me this all the time. What if they
Speaker 2: say no? Will Like, what if you ask for something
Speaker 2: and they tell you no, does a conversation in there?
Speaker 2: You yeah, we would you.
Speaker 1: Say walk away?
Speaker 2: I think you have to have be very you have
Speaker 2: to be aware of what your options are, and I
Speaker 2: think you have to understand where you are in your timeline. So,
Speaker 2: for example, if you just signed deal or contract, or
Speaker 2: you just begin working because in some jurisdictions there isn't
Speaker 2: an employment contract, right, it may just be an offer
Speaker 2: an acceptance, and then you start working and you're an
Speaker 2: at well employee. That's my lawyer hat coming up, right.
Speaker 2: But what if you if you just sign and you
Speaker 2: just agreed to your salary, and then you get there
Speaker 2: and you're like, oh man, this is way more than
Speaker 2: they told me I was going to have to do.
Speaker 2: And that's happened to all of us right where the
Speaker 2: responsibilities didn't really fit the job description. What do you do?
Speaker 2: Do you walk away that is an option that you have.
Speaker 2: Do you sit it out for a bit and say, okay,
Speaker 2: let me see how this works some new here, or
Speaker 2: do you start looking for you know, do you start saying, okay,
Speaker 2: I'm going to ask for an increase? Right? The timing
Speaker 2: of that right may be an issue for a variety
Speaker 2: of reasons. As a person who has started two companies,
Speaker 2: you know budget, right, you think about what you're willing
Speaker 2: to spend and what you're going to do how much
Speaker 2: money you can out a key to certain things. And
Speaker 2: so yeah, you could be like I'm going to walk away.
Speaker 2: You may say I'm going to give it six months.
Speaker 2: You may say I'll give it a year. You may
Speaker 2: say I want to have a conversation with the person
Speaker 2: or the persons who employed me and say, hey, this
Speaker 2: doesn't really match up to what I thought I was
Speaker 2: going to be doing, and how can we make this
Speaker 2: rank and comp. COMP isn't always money, by the way,
Speaker 2: like COMP could be you want a flexible work schedule.
Speaker 2: Maybe on every summer Fridays you want off. Maybe you
Speaker 2: want to work virtually or remotely twice a week. Maybe
Speaker 2: you want tuition reimbursements so you can seek some additional
Speaker 2: professional development opportunities. So comp also can be much more
Speaker 2: expansive than just dollars and cents.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think about that with regards to you.
Speaker 1: During COVID, so many more people went to freelancing and
Speaker 1: working for themselves and you know, starting their little you know, boutiques,
Speaker 1: I shouldn't say litle, but their boutiques and their niche businesses.
Speaker 1: So is there a difference in how you negotiate when
Speaker 1: you're talking to an employer like I work for you,
Speaker 1: I'm a W two versus I'm a ten ninety nine.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's a great question, because I think
Speaker 2: there's only a difference if you value what you do differently.
Speaker 2: And so what I'll say to that is, I remember
Speaker 2: when I first started with my law firm, right, so,
Speaker 2: when I left working for someone else and I started
Speaker 2: working for myself, and I remember thinking, Okay, there's some
Speaker 2: aspects of my work that I'll do at a lower rate.
Speaker 2: For example, if I were providing pro bono help or
Speaker 2: providing help I'll say this differently, providing assistance to a
Speaker 2: nonprofit as opposed to a for profit organization. Should I
Speaker 2: and should I build for the lawyers who are working
Speaker 2: for me build a lower rate because it's a nonprofit
Speaker 2: versus a for profit. Well, at the beginning, yeah, that
Speaker 2: made sense to me. But then as I started looking
Speaker 2: at the hours and what we were doing, it's the
Speaker 2: same amount of work, right, It's the same amount of
Speaker 2: your time, your resources. And so I think one way
Speaker 2: to look at it is what makes the most sense
Speaker 2: if I'm going to work for someone else. There's a
Speaker 2: comfort that comes along with having a system that's already
Speaker 2: established and you sort of plug into it, and if
Speaker 2: there's room for you to get more in the process,
Speaker 2: by all mean to do it. When you are freelancing,
Speaker 2: I think sometimes what people encounter is that the market
Speaker 2: is so vast that someone may be offering the same
Speaker 2: thing that you're offering at a lower rate, a much
Speaker 2: lower rate where you can't compete because you need to
Speaker 2: eat and you have to pay bills. And there are
Speaker 2: a lot of reasons why that could happen. So I
Speaker 2: tell people that you know, and I've been through many
Speaker 2: business programs, right amazing organizations Goldman Sachs ten thousand Small Businesses,
Speaker 2: Tory Birch Foundation program as well, in addition to others
Speaker 2: that focused on helping entrepreneurs learn the ropes and really excel.
Speaker 2: And so some of the things that I've learned I applied.
Speaker 2: Not only do I apply, I help and teach others.
Speaker 2: With that being said, I would say if you're in
Speaker 2: a freelance business, A lot of folks went to freelancing
Speaker 2: during COVID, as you mentioned, and when you're offering something
Speaker 2: where the market is saturated, then you have to figure
Speaker 2: out what you need, right, So are you able to
Speaker 2: offer it at a lower rate, or do you is
Speaker 2: it better to have one hundred gigs at a low
Speaker 2: rate or five gigs? Right? Well, five gigs and get
Speaker 2: you there? Right? What would you do? What would you do?
Speaker 1: Would you prefer rather less clients and more money? Almost clients?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: What I found is so interesting about that is I
Speaker 1: when I started one of my businesses early, I used
Speaker 1: to just do business for anybody that would allow me
Speaker 1: to do business with them. And I realized the ones
Speaker 1: who paid me the least amount of money were the
Speaker 1: hardest to please, and the ones who paid me more
Speaker 1: like as long as I delivered, I never heard from them.
Speaker 2: And when it happened good. And when it happens like that,
Speaker 2: I think you have to assess right, like is you
Speaker 2: must have had some awareness to recognize that, right at
Speaker 2: some point, like, hey, was that worth all the hard
Speaker 2: egg of stress? Right? Was it? Maybe? Not?
Speaker 1: Absolutely? And so I'm interested in your take on this.
Speaker 1: I sit on a couple of boards and we're going
Speaker 1: through a big contract negotiation with one of that I
Speaker 1: won't mention specifics, but one of the boards I'm working
Speaker 1: on and we are going through contract negotiation with an executive,
Speaker 1: and it reminds me of a situation where he wants
Speaker 1: something or she wants something, and because they were an
Speaker 1: internal candidate, they may not get what they could get
Speaker 1: somewhere else. And so what I learned is even in
Speaker 1: my own experience, I used to do radio way long
Speaker 1: time ago, one hundred years ago, and I realized I
Speaker 1: would never be seen because I came up as an intern.
Speaker 1: I would never be seen as at the same level
Speaker 1: as somebody who came in from a different station, a
Speaker 1: different market, at different et cetera, because I came up internally.
Speaker 1: So sometimes you have to leave and go somewhere else
Speaker 1: to be and recognize and appropriately paid because they saw
Speaker 1: you know, that's little Will or that's little Bolly. So
Speaker 1: you have to leave sometimes in order to get the
Speaker 1: reward for your efforts and experience and etc. Can you
Speaker 1: speak to that.
Speaker 2: I'm so happy you said that, because some people exactly
Speaker 2: what you said. They grew up in the organization and
Speaker 2: they are loyal Will. I mean, we have all been there.
Speaker 2: We're like, oh, I used to go back to the
Speaker 2: same place to work every summer when I was in
Speaker 2: college because I love working there. And they looked out
Speaker 2: for me, and I would keep going back. And so
Speaker 2: when you feel that familiarity, sometimes it is hard to
Speaker 2: negotiate with leverage. It could also be the opposite, right,
Speaker 2: you know a lot about the company, You have institutional knowledge, right,
Speaker 2: and so there are things that you bring to the
Speaker 2: table that someone coming from the outside won't be able
Speaker 2: to do. So to me, that's just an additional opportunity, right,
Speaker 2: additional leverage that you can utilize to your advantage and
Speaker 2: the negotiation. And I say that because something that I
Speaker 2: like talk about in my book is reframing how you
Speaker 2: see disadvantages as advantages so that you can expand your toolkit.
Speaker 2: But for people who were in the company and it's
Speaker 2: best to sort of go somewhere else to start fresh,
Speaker 2: I think that goes both ways. Meaning the company sees
Speaker 2: you as little little demali and that you know they
Speaker 2: want someone from the outside, and sometimes the unknown might
Speaker 2: be more appealing. And I've seen exactly that on boards
Speaker 2: where you have like an interim person and that person
Speaker 2: only has that position for a year because they don't
Speaker 2: want people to think that they that they aren't going
Speaker 2: to get great candidates from the outside because that person
Speaker 2: has an advantage because they're there on the same hand
Speaker 2: or at the same time. You may also be like,
Speaker 2: you know what, everyone knows me. They're never going to
Speaker 2: see me as this fully developed professional because I started
Speaker 2: when I was a summer associate, and so I want
Speaker 2: to start fresh and new. And you also may be
Speaker 2: more emboldened to ask for what you need, right because
Speaker 2: it's not the person who used to have lunch with,
Speaker 2: you know, or to have those water cooler chats with.
Speaker 2: So I don't think there's like a fast rule on it.
Speaker 2: It really depends, And I think whatever's going to give
Speaker 2: you the most confidence to ask for what you need,
Speaker 2: and perhaps what you want is what you should do.
Speaker 1: How do I know that a role I'm going for
Speaker 1: lasting on compensation at least for now? How do I
Speaker 1: know that a role I'm up for they're open to
Speaker 1: negotiate if they list the job is, you know, sixty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year one hundred thousand? How do I
Speaker 1: know and confidently approach them with like, Hey, is there
Speaker 1: an opportunity to have a conversation about this, but it
Speaker 1: was listed at that number?
Speaker 2: I would ask the question, that's the only way you
Speaker 2: could know, right, And so sometimes it's it says sixty K,
Speaker 2: but maybe there's some wiggle room. Sometimes the compensation package
Speaker 2: is not just that salary, right, so sometimes there may
Speaker 2: be more. And so what I've found is that it
Speaker 2: depends the question is the time of when the ask occurs, right,
Speaker 2: because I think most people want if it says sixty K,
Speaker 2: they may or may not apply for the job if
Speaker 2: they know they need eighty k. Right, So if you're
Speaker 2: looking at a job opening and you know to cover
Speaker 2: your expenses you need eighty K, that's also it's already
Speaker 2: going to weed out some people. But there may be
Speaker 2: some people who are like, this is like a great opportunity,
Speaker 2: I really want it. Maybe it's an organization you want
Speaker 2: to get your foot in the door, right, and so
Speaker 2: you know, let's see, let's just go in there and
Speaker 2: see if there are any synergies. Let me go through
Speaker 2: the interview process. And so the question is at what
Speaker 2: point during the interview process do you ask about whether
Speaker 2: there's any flexibility in the compensation. I've seen some people
Speaker 2: have success asking at the beginning before they get too
Speaker 2: far in the process, because if they know they need
Speaker 2: eighty K, and it's a hard sixty K is really
Speaker 2: not the best use of anyone's time to go through
Speaker 2: the whole process, meet with eight people, and then you
Speaker 2: get to the enmity they're ready to sign the deal
Speaker 2: and you're like, see, I need twenty game. Some people
Speaker 2: do it at the beginning. I have actually seen some
Speaker 2: very successful negotiations because, as you can probably imagine, people
Speaker 2: call me all the time at different stages in their negotiations,
Speaker 2: and I've seen some very successful ones where and I
Speaker 2: think this is a really great way to have leverage
Speaker 2: if you go through the process and you there's a range,
Speaker 2: and this usually happens when there's a range, so you
Speaker 2: know if they say where it's like starting at sixty
Speaker 2: K as opposed to sixty K or sixty K through
Speaker 2: to eighty K, then to me, that's how you know
Speaker 2: that there's wiggle room. But if you want to check,
Speaker 2: if you want to confirm, and you want to ask
Speaker 2: during the interview process, I would wait to see if
Speaker 2: it's the right fit for both you and for both
Speaker 2: and the others. For the cut organization, I would talk
Speaker 2: to not your boss or future boss, but whoever's in
Speaker 2: h R right, because that gives you some right that
Speaker 2: person can be the intermediary and can ask the questions
Speaker 2: and find out internally without perhaps you know, rubbing the
Speaker 2: person you're going to be reporting to you the wrong way.
Speaker 2: So I would utilize that intermediary and I would ask
Speaker 2: that person, you know, is there any tell me about
Speaker 2: the range? Or can we talk about the range? And
Speaker 2: or can we be how creative can the compensation package be?
Speaker 2: I like that question will because they might be willing
Speaker 2: to do things that you wouldn't even have considered because
Speaker 2: there's some precedent internally within the organization, and how would
Speaker 2: you have known that? So they may say, you know,
Speaker 2: we have a bonus structure that I haven't mentioned. We
Speaker 2: don't always talk about unless someone asks the question. They say,
Speaker 2: you know, we also have some stock options or something
Speaker 2: similar to deferred packages. They may have some restrictive stock
Speaker 2: units right that require you to be employed for a
Speaker 2: certain period of time. So maybe you say, okay, I'll
Speaker 2: sign on for three years and I won't leave for
Speaker 2: three years because you know, because you know that for
Speaker 2: over that three year period your RSUs will vest. So
Speaker 2: there are a lot of different ways to be strategic
Speaker 2: about come and to ask and to think about who
Speaker 2: you're asking and when you're asking, whether there's flexibility and
Speaker 2: the amount that they're offering at the start.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I hear you saying, which I think is
Speaker 1: really good, is you've got to be clear on what
Speaker 1: is the value to you, What is the worth to
Speaker 1: you of this role, because the employer is clear on
Speaker 1: what it's worth to them, but if you're walking in,
Speaker 1: you're not sure what it's worth to you to do this.
Speaker 1: And I think about this from this perspective of I
Speaker 1: hear so many people who are public figures and they
Speaker 1: won't get on the stage unless they're making X. And
Speaker 1: while I understand that because a lot of people will
Speaker 1: take advantage of you and use you to sell tickets
Speaker 1: and they won't pay you anything. Sometimes there's just a
Speaker 1: sage you need to be on that isn't paying. But
Speaker 1: it puts you in a position to be in front
Speaker 1: of people that you may need to be in front of.
Speaker 1: So you have to not see it, to your point
Speaker 1: as dollars, but then what other benefits are there and
Speaker 1: you got to measure those as well.
Speaker 2: I'm happy you said that too, because you're what I'm
Speaker 2: hearing too is opportunity costs right there you go, and
Speaker 2: some things, yeah, some things aren't just dollars and cents.
Speaker 2: I teach at law school and I talk to my
Speaker 2: law students a lot, and as you're getting ready to
Speaker 2: go out into the world as a young lawyer, there
Speaker 2: are a lot of things you have to think about,
Speaker 2: especially if you think about like a general contract. Right,
Speaker 2: people asking this all the time, well can you do
Speaker 2: this under the contract? And I'll look at the terms
Speaker 2: of the contract with the strict interpretation and say yes.
Speaker 2: But then the next question that should that should follow
Speaker 2: is should you do yes right? So should you do it?
Speaker 2: You can't be allowed to do it right? Well, you can,
Speaker 2: what should you? And I think the same thing applies
Speaker 2: to the situation where you know, and it happens a
Speaker 2: lot well, where people all want a piece of view,
Speaker 2: and there's only so much time, and sometimes a good
Speaker 2: way to evaluate what you should be doing with that
Speaker 2: time it comes down to just comes down to math, right,
Speaker 2: and economics. But I do think that sometimes there is
Speaker 2: a stage you should be on, and sometimes you don't
Speaker 2: know how that's going to lead to the next opportunity,
Speaker 2: and so sometimes you just kept a sort of follow
Speaker 2: where the path will lead you, but everyone doesn't always
Speaker 2: have the benefit of being able to do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought up the conversation of
Speaker 1: you know, your legal background and your students, because I was.
Speaker 1: I was having a conversation with a friend of mine
Speaker 1: and she's a female black attorney and she went to
Speaker 1: Howard to do her law studies and we had this
Speaker 1: really interesting conversation. Actually mentioned this one another previous episode
Speaker 1: where she was taught that you know, when you grow up,
Speaker 1: you watch Law and Order and you watch these attorneys
Speaker 1: on TV. You know, they're banging the desk in the courtroom,
Speaker 1: and their white guys or their white ladies, and they're
Speaker 1: doing all this louds and stuff, and you know, being
Speaker 1: really aggressive in the courtroom. And she said, her professor say,
Speaker 1: you can't do that, though, because you will be seen
Speaker 1: differently than that white guy or that white lady, or
Speaker 1: that less milanated person. But you, as a black woman,
Speaker 1: you go in that courtroom and you started slamming your
Speaker 1: fist on the desk, They're going to see you a
Speaker 1: whole different way. And so the reason I position this
Speaker 1: question this way is is are there differences in how
Speaker 1: we need to negotiate versus what our counterparts can get
Speaker 1: away with.
Speaker 2: I love this question. You know, perception is really huge
Speaker 2: and where everyone has control over what they say, how
Speaker 2: they say it, you know, we can be very thoughtful
Speaker 2: about it. And on the other side of communication, it's
Speaker 2: how the person is hearing it and receiving it and
Speaker 2: perceiving it right. And that's going to be based on experience, exposure, exposure, education, bias,
Speaker 2: implicit bias. It could be a whole series of things.
Speaker 2: And so when we're talking about this example of attorneys, like,
Speaker 2: I can't speak for every field, but the last time
Speaker 2: I checked the ABA stats, I think only like a
Speaker 2: very small percentage of lawyers were for black for example,
Speaker 2: let's say two percent or five percent, and maybe two
Speaker 2: percent where women or something to that effect. It was
Speaker 2: a very small amount. And so if you think about that,
Speaker 2: that means that the dominant perception of what a lawyer
Speaker 2: looks like, sounds like, ats like, talks like in general
Speaker 2: is still that of a white male, right, And so
Speaker 2: then if you have to think about that being the
Speaker 2: culture around the law, then how do you be your
Speaker 2: authentic self in this area where authenticity has been defined
Speaker 2: and popularized on TV in a certain way, right, And
Speaker 2: so I like the question a lot because perception is
Speaker 2: I mean, it's amazing to me you can say something
Speaker 2: the same way as someone else, but if you look
Speaker 2: like me, someone can say, well, you seem angry and defensive,
Speaker 2: and then you're just like, well, I wasn't angry or defensive,
Speaker 2: but now I am, like, wait, now I am because
Speaker 2: you just said like two words that you probably shouldn't
Speaker 2: have said to me, only because I was frustrated and annoyed,
Speaker 2: which is within the whole realm of human emotion based
Speaker 2: on this situation. So I think what's interesting about that.
Speaker 2: I saw a movie recently that had Jamie Fox in it,
Speaker 2: and he was a lawyer based on a real case,
Speaker 2: and he was like a lawyer from the South and
Speaker 2: he was working on this big case and you know
Speaker 2: what we were talking about.
Speaker 1: It was so good, yes, and it was.
Speaker 2: So good, and he didn't change his you know, he
Speaker 2: was still sort of like this amazing person. But then
Speaker 2: he and he was the same way. And then there
Speaker 2: was a black woman lawyer on the other side, and
Speaker 2: you know, she went to Howard, which I was like, yes,
Speaker 2: and you know, they still had a lot of respect
Speaker 2: for each other even though they were across from each other,
Speaker 2: because again, you know, and they got they hired her
Speaker 2: by the way, because they were like, oh, the other
Speaker 2: side has like a prominent black attorney, so they knew
Speaker 2: they need to get another prominent black attorney on the
Speaker 2: other side. So I say all this to say, yes,
Speaker 2: the burial, it was so good, it was so good.
Speaker 2: And so I tell us to say that I do
Speaker 2: think that. And let me let me preface this by saying,
Speaker 2: I went to Spelman for undergrad I went to Middlebury,
Speaker 2: which at that time was still called Monterey Institute of
Speaker 2: National Studies, which was say, half international, half Americans. In California,
Speaker 2: I went to Howard Law. I've also been to over
Speaker 2: fifty countries and six continents. So I want to be
Speaker 2: clear that when I'm making these statements, it's not like
Speaker 2: for me speaking in a vacuum. It's for me having
Speaker 2: studying abroad in four countries. It's for me traveling extensively.
Speaker 2: It's for me like being in different rooms where I
Speaker 2: was the youngest, the only woman, the only woman of color,
Speaker 2: the only black women, and also seeing other people in
Speaker 2: these spaces and places, and having had extensive conversations and
Speaker 2: having conducted a lot of research. So research is key
Speaker 2: because it's not just about like, my perception, but what
Speaker 2: are the studies also showing. So do I think that
Speaker 2: in many spaces there's still a perception of what is
Speaker 2: acceptable from some people and unacceptable from others one hundred
Speaker 2: percent one hundred percent. And that's not just limited to
Speaker 2: my field of the law.
Speaker 1: So I'm interested in your perspective on this thing. So historically,
Speaker 1: at least as a non lawyer, you know, at least
Speaker 1: my view of the law is like if we disagreed
Speaker 1: on something thirty forty fifty years ago, you know, you're
Speaker 1: in court, like we sue, you sue You mean I
Speaker 1: sue you were in court today. You have all these
Speaker 1: alternative dispute resolution avenues, you can take mediation, you know,
Speaker 1: all these all these things. I'll let you talk about
Speaker 1: the various types. Can you talk about how those types
Speaker 1: of things are evolving and what in what circumstances you
Speaker 1: would go down each particular route.
Speaker 2: This is such a great question. I know you hear
Speaker 2: me saying that a lot, but sometimes you know, people
Speaker 2: don't ask great questions and you're just like zero, I
Speaker 2: WoT to answer, but you asked, and I knew you
Speaker 2: would because I listened to your podcast and I love it.
Speaker 2: You're a wonderful, wonderful host, and I'm a big fan.
Speaker 2: So stop my fan girling for a moment to answer you.
Speaker 2: I appreciate it, but it's it's I'm telling you the truth.
Speaker 2: You know. Like you said many years ago, the only
Speaker 2: way people knew how to seek justice for any type
Speaker 2: of claim they had was to go to court. You
Speaker 2: still see it on TV. I'm going to sue you.
Speaker 2: You see all the time, nobody is like, I'm gonna
Speaker 2: take you to mediation. Nobody said, right, it doesn't have
Speaker 2: the same like stupid right, I'm gonna get an arbitrator.
Speaker 2: What Like nobody, nobody ever ever says that, and so
Speaker 2: and so. It became something that people knew just like,
Speaker 2: if something's wrong, I'm going to call police, right Like
Speaker 2: that was the only area that people knew to call
Speaker 2: if something happened. I know, someone a bear was in
Speaker 2: their trash and they called the police. I was like,
Speaker 2: I'm a bear. I was just like, you call That's
Speaker 2: that's what came to their mind. They're the bear going
Speaker 2: through our trash. Call nine one. What like, I'm not
Speaker 2: aunting them, but I'm just like, I'm the bear. So
Speaker 2: for people who have an issue, for many years, it
Speaker 2: was just a standard some you do something wrong to me,
Speaker 2: I'm going to see you. If I follow in your store,
Speaker 2: I'm going to see you. If I can't, if I
Speaker 2: need a business divorce, right, I'm going to see you.
Speaker 2: And that was just how it worked, and most contracts
Speaker 2: reflected that right. So contracts, if there was any claim
Speaker 2: that needed to be brought, it would talk about what
Speaker 2: would happen and what jurisdiction would you go to court?
Speaker 2: What would be the choice of law or the governing
Speaker 2: law for this situation, And that's how it was. Many
Speaker 2: years ago you started to see more industries adopt alternative
Speaker 2: dispute resolution processes in their contracts. So, for example, most
Speaker 2: people have a cell phone. Right, if you ever have
Speaker 2: some free time and you want to read the terms
Speaker 2: of use, which people just say yes to you all
Speaker 2: the time, not this nerd. I'm like, oh, what is
Speaker 2: this saying? What am I going to to use this phone?
Speaker 2: Do I need to get a pager? But at the
Speaker 2: point is you ever, if you ever look at it,
Speaker 2: what you'll see is that if you have any claim
Speaker 2: that you want to bring, you have relinquished your right
Speaker 2: to go to jury trial and you've accepted arbitration as
Speaker 2: the forum for your complaint. And what's interesting about that
Speaker 2: is not just for your phone, if you're on a computer,
Speaker 2: like you're on a computer, I'm assuming, or you have
Speaker 2: a video camera, all these different tech you know, all
Speaker 2: this different technology. Often in schools, if your kid is
Speaker 2: in a private school and there's a contract, all these
Speaker 2: different things are now usually instead of going to litigation,
Speaker 2: are preferring first, usually negotiation. Right in the a continuum
Speaker 2: of dispute resolution processes, there's negotiation first where there's no
Speaker 2: third party. Then there's mediation. Well there's sort of shuttle diplomacy.
Speaker 2: So what you see happening when a president goes from
Speaker 2: country to country to try to get you know, sides
Speaker 2: to agree. You have that shuttle diplomacy or conciliation, and
Speaker 2: then you have mediation where you have a third person
Speaker 2: who's involved. And with like negotiation or conciliation or mediation,
Speaker 2: that third person in the middle isn't making a decision.
Speaker 2: So contracts will say, you know, try to negotiate first.
Speaker 2: And if that doesn't doesn't work. Go to mediation. I'm
Speaker 2: also a mediator, and so you can find someone who
Speaker 2: can literally get in the middle and help you try
Speaker 2: to reach a resolution. And then you have arbitration. Now
Speaker 2: you have a person who is a decision maker.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: The thing about arbitration is that it's not that different
Speaker 2: from litigation, where you have a judge or a jury
Speaker 2: of your peers deciding the fate of the situation. But
Speaker 2: with now, with mediation and arbitration, these processes are being
Speaker 2: put into contracts because it's a better business roof. And
Speaker 2: what I mean by that is hugely faster. It's usually
Speaker 2: less expensive to go to court, and many jurisdictions in
Speaker 2: many states sometimes you can follow claim and you may
Speaker 2: not see a judge for several years, will several years.
Speaker 2: You may not even have your first hearing for eighteen months. Right. So,
Speaker 2: to imagine if you were in a situation that was
Speaker 2: time sensitive. What if your neighbor is encroaching on your land.
Speaker 2: What if something is happening in your job and you're like,
Speaker 2: what am I supposed to do in the meantime? What
Speaker 2: you want to separate? As you don't know what to do.
Speaker 2: Some of these processes are faster and you can control
Speaker 2: the cost. Litigation is very expensive, so you can control
Speaker 2: the cost. It's more efficient. And then with mediation especially,
Speaker 2: you can have your day in court. And what I
Speaker 2: mean by that is you can speak, you can you
Speaker 2: can come and say how you feel, you can say
Speaker 2: how it's made you feel. It's less formal of a
Speaker 2: process than arbitration and then litigation, which is at the
Speaker 2: end of the continuum of dispute resolution. And so when
Speaker 2: you're talking about how things have changed, I've seen companies
Speaker 2: recognize that having a dispute resolution process embedded into a
Speaker 2: contract or if you look at your employment agreement in general,
Speaker 2: or if you look at your phone in terms of
Speaker 2: user computer or almost almost everything now they're incorporating. You know,
Speaker 2: they're thinking about how to not just speed up the
Speaker 2: process if there's an issue, but how to keep the
Speaker 2: cost down. A lot of money is spent fighting claims
Speaker 2: and all industries. Tech is not, you know, on the
Speaker 2: outside of this and all industries. So it's just a
Speaker 2: smart businessman.
Speaker 1: So finally I give you this. So I'm interested that
Speaker 1: in your best toolkit for getting into a negotiation when
Speaker 1: you know you're about to walk into one. What do
Speaker 1: you say I should be equipped with it, and I'm gonna
Speaker 1: give you what I think, and then I'll let you
Speaker 1: tell me if it's a good strategy or so. My
Speaker 1: strategy is to think, I want to do my best
Speaker 1: to understand what that person wants, and if I can
Speaker 1: understand what they want, I can position myself to either say,
Speaker 1: you know what what they want, what I'm willing to
Speaker 1: give them for what to help me it they want.
Speaker 1: That helps me determine if it's even a fit for me.
Speaker 1: But if I know what they want, I understand how
Speaker 1: to approach them with my alternative take or my ability
Speaker 1: to assist them in getting what they want, and then
Speaker 1: so all the other things waterfall from there. If I
Speaker 1: understand what you try, what you're trying to get out
Speaker 1: of this, then I'm better equipped to make sure that
Speaker 1: we find a ground that we both can live with.
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to say I like that a lot,
Speaker 2: and I can tell that that's been very useful in
Speaker 2: your life, like figuring out what the other side wants
Speaker 2: and then figuring out Okay, now that I know what
Speaker 2: they want, then I can try to meet what their
Speaker 2: wants and then also get what I want to right,
Speaker 2: And I like how you said it's like a waterfall
Speaker 2: down from there. I think that's a really smart strategy, Will,
Speaker 2: And if it works for you, you keep on doing it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, keep.
Speaker 2: Doing What I'm going to say is that I think
Speaker 2: that going into every negotiation, there's there are five foundational elements,
Speaker 2: and I call them the foundational five in my book
Speaker 2: that every negotiation has. And the first one is knowing
Speaker 2: what you want right, and your take on it too
Speaker 2: is what does the other side want? And I'll get
Speaker 2: to that in the moment. But for the foundational five,
Speaker 2: know what you want and by the way, things that
Speaker 2: you have to know no, So you have to know
Speaker 2: what you want, know what you need, know how to
Speaker 2: to actively listen, know how to communicate, and know when
Speaker 2: to close, because how many times have you gotten like one, two, three,
Speaker 2: and four, but you didn't know when to stop, You
Speaker 2: didn't know when to walk away, And it was like
Speaker 2: now is now a good time? So what should I do?
Speaker 2: And so when I hear you talking about knowing what
Speaker 2: the other person wants, I love that and I'm going
Speaker 2: to push you. I'm going to push you Will to
Speaker 2: say go past the want, because the one is what
Speaker 2: they're articulating that they want, and get to the why
Speaker 2: do they want it? That's the need Because people will
Speaker 2: tell you what they want all the time. You know,
Speaker 2: I want to raise, I want a new car, I
Speaker 2: want to get ready before I'm thirty. You know what
Speaker 2: they want. But when you start to unpack that, understand
Speaker 2: why they want it, because you may not be able
Speaker 2: to get them. You meet them where they are. What
Speaker 2: if you know what I want? Right? What if I
Speaker 2: tell you I want X and you know that, but
Speaker 2: you don't know why I want it? To think about like,
Speaker 2: if you knew why I wanted it, then maybe you
Speaker 2: can help me meet that need a different way, maybe
Speaker 2: even in a way that I didn't think about it. Right.
Speaker 2: And I know you can do this because when we
Speaker 2: were chatting and I was asking some questions about podcasting,
Speaker 2: you you you heard what I needed. So it might
Speaker 2: just be a little bit of semantics with want and need, right,
Speaker 2: I do think that they're different. I do think that
Speaker 2: when people say that they want is usually more fixed.
Speaker 2: And if you can figure out the need and to
Speaker 2: your point, like where there's some shared common goals and
Speaker 2: common ground then everything does water fall from there. And
Speaker 2: part of that what I'm hearing you say, and I
Speaker 2: know that you do because you're very successful, is you
Speaker 2: have to be listening to them. People don't always listen
Speaker 2: when someone else is talking. Well, I mean, you've made
Speaker 2: a career of listening to people. I mean, so you
Speaker 2: get it. But people don't always listen. They don't listen
Speaker 2: because they don't they're thinking about what they're going to
Speaker 2: say next. They are not listening because they don't like
Speaker 2: what they're hearing, right, so they stop listening. And if
Speaker 2: we're being honest, sometimes people don't listen because they don't
Speaker 2: like the other person who's talking, right. They have no
Speaker 2: regard for that person, and they don't want to hear
Speaker 2: what they're saying. But the way that you learn what
Speaker 2: someone wants and what they need is to actively listen
Speaker 2: to what they're saying and perhaps hearing what they aren't
Speaker 2: saying right, and seeing the nonverbal cues, and then communicating
Speaker 2: in a way that's thoughtful. Right. That communication to me,
Speaker 2: and I think that's why I put listening first and
Speaker 2: then communicating like it's in order to kind of get
Speaker 2: somewhere in a negotiation. Don't get me wrong, I can talk,
Speaker 2: but I like to listen and kind of take it
Speaker 2: out and then know when to walk away. Did you
Speaker 2: concede too much? Did you give them everything they wanted
Speaker 2: and you only got one or two things that you wanted?
Speaker 2: But are they weigh the same? Right? Maybe what you
Speaker 2: wanted was really what you needed, right, And so it's
Speaker 2: okay to close and wrap it up. And so I
Speaker 2: think that if there was one takeaway in terms of
Speaker 2: like getting what you what you need in a negotiation.
Speaker 2: And I always say, like, you know, I don't know,
Speaker 2: will Like there's this song back in the day that
Speaker 2: was like, you don't you can't always get what you want,
Speaker 2: but if you try, sometimes you get what you need.
Speaker 2: And I've said that to like groups of people who
Speaker 2: I'll say are a lot younger than me, and they're
Speaker 2: just like, I've never heard that song. So you know
Speaker 2: this song? I want it, I got it, I want it.
Speaker 1: I know that song.
Speaker 2: That's a more contemporary song. I have to like change
Speaker 2: my analogies, but it's like that, like I feel like
Speaker 2: the reason that I think people are successful in negotiations
Speaker 2: oftentimes goes deeper than helping people get what they want.
Speaker 2: It's like getting what they need. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes total sense. Negotiating wild Black. Where can
Speaker 1: we get it? Tell us about it?
Speaker 2: Like you. I appreciate that. You know my book is
Speaker 2: available anywhere you buy books. Uh, it's everywhere right now.
Speaker 2: The editors at Amazon picked it as a top pick
Speaker 2: for the month of June. They make it as best
Speaker 2: in nonfiction. Evane said, you have to read it as
Speaker 2: thank you so much. Esen said it's one of the
Speaker 2: top fifteen books to dive into this summer. Ebany said
Speaker 2: one of I'm one of blackla, one of black authors
Speaker 2: to read this summer, along with like Questlove and Taraji
Speaker 2: p Henson. I love being in their company. To Rogi's
Speaker 2: from DC like me. I play the drums like Questlove.
Speaker 2: No what we have to have a jam session? Will lot?
Speaker 2: I want to do over a jam session. I want
Speaker 2: to see it over. And you know, I've heard a
Speaker 2: lot of episodes and I didn't know you were a
Speaker 2: drum running. Can you say this.
Speaker 1: About it much? But I've been playing Jones. I was ten.
Speaker 2: I even heard it was an Aaron Samuel say that
Speaker 2: he was traveling doing spoken spoken word. I was so
Speaker 2: impressed and all this time you were a drummer and
Speaker 2: I didn't even know. Yeah, me too, me too. We
Speaker 2: have to have a damn session, you know, I have
Speaker 2: to have a jam session. I The book is everywhere.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think what's as important as knowing that
Speaker 2: it's everywhere everywhere Amazon, Bars and Noble, Target, Walmart everywhere
Speaker 2: is when you read, when you read it, review it.
Speaker 2: I think that that's something that people are buying you.
Speaker 2: That's great. And then review it, you know, tell tell
Speaker 2: people what you think of the book. I spent a
Speaker 2: lot of time writing and researching. The stories are good stories,
Speaker 2: but it's not just story based. We come from a
Speaker 2: people who are storytellers. We agree as right, so the
Speaker 2: stories are are still good stories and there's no legally's will.
Speaker 2: It's not boring. It's like you and I talking right now.
Speaker 2: It's also all on audible. I recorded, I narrated myself.
Speaker 2: They have me in the studio. Well, I wish I
Speaker 2: was playing the drums, but they.
Speaker 1: Have the Molly Peterman So glad to have you. Thank
Speaker 1: you for joining me.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity afro
Speaker 1: Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Networking Night, Hiartmedia and
Speaker 1: it's produced by Morgan Debaun and me Well Lucas with
Speaker 1: the addigital production support by Kate McDonald, Saarah Ergan and
Speaker 1: Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis and Love Beach.
Speaker 1: Learn more about my Guess and other tech. Destructor is
Speaker 1: an innovators at afrotech dot com. The video version of
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Speaker 1: us to somebody go get your money. Peace and love,