WEBVTT - Damali Peterman on Negotiating While Black, Getting the Comp Your Worth, and High Stakes

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<v Speaker 1>Demali Peterman is a highly reguarded and sought after lawyer, mediator, negotiator, educator,

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<v Speaker 1>and speaker with nearly twenty years of experience in the

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<v Speaker 1>alternative dispute resolution field. She's founder and CEO of two companies,

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<v Speaker 1>Breakthrough ADR and Demali Law. Her new book, Negotiating While Black,

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<v Speaker 1>helps you leverage your unique strends and walk away with

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<v Speaker 1>the best possible deal. So the first thing you might

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<v Speaker 1>think about when we talk about negotiation might be compensation.

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<v Speaker 1>So since she's specifically talking to black people, how bad

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<v Speaker 1>are we at negotiating count Black Tech Green Money is

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<v Speaker 1>a production of Blavity Afro Tech on the Black Effect

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<v Speaker 1>podcast network in iHeartMedia and it's produced by Morgan Debonn

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<v Speaker 1>and me Well Lucas, with additional production support by Kate

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<v Speaker 1>McDonald and Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis

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<v Speaker 1>and Sarah Ergan. Learn more about my guests and other

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<v Speaker 1>tech disruptors and innovators at afrotech dot com. The video

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<v Speaker 1>version of this episode will chop to Black Tech Green

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<v Speaker 1>Money on YouTube. So tap in joining Black Tech Green Money.

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<v Speaker 1>Share this with somebody, I'll get your money. He's in love.

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<v Speaker 1>So typically when people write books like this is because

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<v Speaker 1>they see a need in the marketplace, they see a

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<v Speaker 1>need in their community, or otherwise see a need somewhere.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's start with compensation. How bad are we at

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<v Speaker 1>negotiating compensation?

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<v Speaker 2>You know, when it comes to compensation, I see a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of recurring issues. Right. One, people are really afraid

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<v Speaker 2>of hearing no. And sometimes it's that fear of getting

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<v Speaker 2>that know And you can call it whatever you want.

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<v Speaker 2>You can call it a confrontation, you can call it rejection,

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<v Speaker 2>whatever the case may be. But it's that fear of

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<v Speaker 2>hearing the know that in the first place may even

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<v Speaker 2>prevent the person from mustering up the courage to ask, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And then two, once you get that actual no, that

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<v Speaker 2>might stall the conversation and prevent you from advancing your needs.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I don't know if it's that and then

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<v Speaker 2>the other The third thing that I see too is

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<v Speaker 2>that people feel as though, how do you assess your value? Right?

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<v Speaker 2>How do you when you're talking about comp especially if

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<v Speaker 2>you're in an industry that's not transparent in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>what people with your education experience, marketability, your specific set

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<v Speaker 2>of skills, right are earning? How do you know how

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<v Speaker 2>to how to align your value with your ask, and

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<v Speaker 2>especially if there's a set amount. So when I think

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<v Speaker 2>about comp, I think about pre comp so before you

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<v Speaker 2>get that job, right before you're responding to an ad

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<v Speaker 2>or what have you, and you currently do not work there,

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<v Speaker 2>and so you're like, okay, maybe there's a salary range

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<v Speaker 2>and you're trying to figure out where you put yourself

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<v Speaker 2>in that range, and so that's that's hard to say.

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<v Speaker 2>One thing that people use, of course, is what they're

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<v Speaker 2>currently earning if they're already in the field, so that

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<v Speaker 2>that's kind of a marker in many jurisdictions. However, it

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<v Speaker 2>is not permissible legally, as a recruiter can't ask and

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<v Speaker 2>the company can't ask what you're currently making. For example,

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<v Speaker 2>in New York, recruiters can't ask you and companies can't

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<v Speaker 2>ask you what your current salary is. And that's because historically,

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<v Speaker 2>many people of color, I mean, people who check different

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<v Speaker 2>boxes were not compensated fairly and they couldn't kind of

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<v Speaker 2>move out of that bracket to the next bracket because

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<v Speaker 2>they would have to say what they were being paid.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you were already being underpaid and then you

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<v Speaker 2>have to then tell that to the next person, while

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<v Speaker 2>will they be incentivized to pay you what you're worth

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<v Speaker 2>or your value or even what the market could bear.

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<v Speaker 2>If you're making, you know, five thousand dollars, then you

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<v Speaker 2>can be making one hundred thousand dollars. And so when

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<v Speaker 2>it comes to comp if it's pre meaning you haven't

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<v Speaker 2>started there. I really like to encourage people to ask

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<v Speaker 2>for what you want and ask for what you need, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and think about why you're asking for what you want.

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<v Speaker 2>Is it pecked to what you believe your value is?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it what you know the market will bear? What

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<v Speaker 2>information do you have because because information is power, So

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<v Speaker 2>what information do you have that you can use in

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<v Speaker 2>that conversation. The other part of it will is if

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<v Speaker 2>you already work somewhere, right, so you already worked there

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<v Speaker 2>and now you're like ready to seek a pay increase

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<v Speaker 2>or are you trying to have a pay something where

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<v Speaker 2>you know you are already there, but you're doing more work.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe they give you more responsibilities because someone left, or

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<v Speaker 2>they restructure the organization and now more has fallen on

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<v Speaker 2>your shoulders, but they haven't sort of trued up if

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<v Speaker 2>you will for how much they should be paying you

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<v Speaker 2>so there are different reasons someone could want a salary

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<v Speaker 2>increase when they're already employed somewhere that is sometimes more

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<v Speaker 2>difficult to do too, right, because you don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>maybe you don't want to ruffle any feathers, or you

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to come across the wrong way. Maybe the

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<v Speaker 2>market in general is bad. And so they're all these

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<v Speaker 2>things that people sort of tell themselves as to why

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<v Speaker 2>they shouldn't ask for more, tell themselves as still okay

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<v Speaker 2>if they say no, I'm just going to stop no.

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<v Speaker 2>So when it comes to conversation, I don't think we're

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<v Speaker 2>bad at it. I just think that there are many reasons,

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<v Speaker 2>both like systemically and also economically, like just thinking about

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<v Speaker 2>general economics, and of course just like the the emotional

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<v Speaker 2>roller coaster that you may have internally when you're trying

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<v Speaker 2>to muster up the courage to even make their requests.

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<v Speaker 2>And then what happens if they say no? I have

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<v Speaker 2>people ask me this all the time. What if they

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<v Speaker 2>say no? Will Like, what if you ask for something

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<v Speaker 2>and they tell you no, does a conversation in there?

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<v Speaker 2>You yeah, we would you.

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<v Speaker 1>Say walk away?

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<v Speaker 2>I think you have to have be very you have

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<v Speaker 2>to be aware of what your options are, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think you have to understand where you are in your timeline. So,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, if you just signed deal or contract, or

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<v Speaker 2>you just begin working because in some jurisdictions there isn't

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<v Speaker 2>an employment contract, right, it may just be an offer

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<v Speaker 2>an acceptance, and then you start working and you're an

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<v Speaker 2>at well employee. That's my lawyer hat coming up, right.

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<v Speaker 2>But what if you if you just sign and you

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<v Speaker 2>just agreed to your salary, and then you get there

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<v Speaker 2>and you're like, oh man, this is way more than

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<v Speaker 2>they told me I was going to have to do.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's happened to all of us right where the

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<v Speaker 2>responsibilities didn't really fit the job description. What do you do?

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<v Speaker 2>Do you walk away that is an option that you have.

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<v Speaker 2>Do you sit it out for a bit and say, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>let me see how this works some new here, or

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<v Speaker 2>do you start looking for you know, do you start saying, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to ask for an increase? Right? The timing

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<v Speaker 2>of that right may be an issue for a variety

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<v Speaker 2>of reasons. As a person who has started two companies,

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<v Speaker 2>you know budget, right, you think about what you're willing

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<v Speaker 2>to spend and what you're going to do how much

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<v Speaker 2>money you can out a key to certain things. And

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<v Speaker 2>so yeah, you could be like I'm going to walk away.

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<v Speaker 2>You may say I'm going to give it six months.

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<v Speaker 2>You may say I'll give it a year. You may

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<v Speaker 2>say I want to have a conversation with the person

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<v Speaker 2>or the persons who employed me and say, hey, this

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't really match up to what I thought I was

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<v Speaker 2>going to be doing, and how can we make this

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<v Speaker 2>rank and comp. COMP isn't always money, by the way,

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<v Speaker 2>like COMP could be you want a flexible work schedule.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe on every summer Fridays you want off. Maybe you

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<v Speaker 2>want to work virtually or remotely twice a week. Maybe

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<v Speaker 2>you want tuition reimbursements so you can seek some additional

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<v Speaker 2>professional development opportunities. So comp also can be much more

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<v Speaker 2>expansive than just dollars and cents.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what do you think about that with regards to you.

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<v Speaker 1>During COVID, so many more people went to freelancing and

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<v Speaker 1>working for themselves and you know, starting their little you know, boutiques,

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<v Speaker 1>I shouldn't say litle, but their boutiques and their niche businesses.

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<v Speaker 1>So is there a difference in how you negotiate when

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<v Speaker 1>you're talking to an employer like I work for you,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm a W two versus I'm a ten ninety nine.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think that's a great question, because I think

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<v Speaker 2>there's only a difference if you value what you do differently.

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<v Speaker 2>And so what I'll say to that is, I remember

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<v Speaker 2>when I first started with my law firm, right, so,

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<v Speaker 2>when I left working for someone else and I started

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<v Speaker 2>working for myself, and I remember thinking, Okay, there's some

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<v Speaker 2>aspects of my work that I'll do at a lower rate.

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<v Speaker 2>For example, if I were providing pro bono help or

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<v Speaker 2>providing help I'll say this differently, providing assistance to a

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<v Speaker 2>nonprofit as opposed to a for profit organization. Should I

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<v Speaker 2>and should I build for the lawyers who are working

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<v Speaker 2>for me build a lower rate because it's a nonprofit

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<v Speaker 2>versus a for profit. Well, at the beginning, yeah, that

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<v Speaker 2>made sense to me. But then as I started looking

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<v Speaker 2>at the hours and what we were doing, it's the

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<v Speaker 2>same amount of work, right, It's the same amount of

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<v Speaker 2>your time, your resources. And so I think one way

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<v Speaker 2>to look at it is what makes the most sense

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<v Speaker 2>if I'm going to work for someone else. There's a

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<v Speaker 2>comfort that comes along with having a system that's already

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<v Speaker 2>established and you sort of plug into it, and if

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<v Speaker 2>there's room for you to get more in the process,

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<v Speaker 2>by all mean to do it. When you are freelancing,

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<v Speaker 2>I think sometimes what people encounter is that the market

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<v Speaker 2>is so vast that someone may be offering the same

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<v Speaker 2>thing that you're offering at a lower rate, a much

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<v Speaker 2>lower rate where you can't compete because you need to

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<v Speaker 2>eat and you have to pay bills. And there are

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of reasons why that could happen. So I

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<v Speaker 2>tell people that you know, and I've been through many

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<v Speaker 2>business programs, right amazing organizations Goldman Sachs ten thousand Small Businesses,

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<v Speaker 2>Tory Birch Foundation program as well, in addition to others

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<v Speaker 2>that focused on helping entrepreneurs learn the ropes and really excel.

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<v Speaker 2>And so some of the things that I've learned I applied.

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<v Speaker 2>Not only do I apply, I help and teach others.

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<v Speaker 2>With that being said, I would say if you're in

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<v Speaker 2>a freelance business, A lot of folks went to freelancing

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<v Speaker 2>during COVID, as you mentioned, and when you're offering something

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<v Speaker 2>where the market is saturated, then you have to figure

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<v Speaker 2>out what you need, right, So are you able to

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<v Speaker 2>offer it at a lower rate, or do you is

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<v Speaker 2>it better to have one hundred gigs at a low

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<v Speaker 2>rate or five gigs? Right? Well, five gigs and get

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<v Speaker 2>you there? Right? What would you do? What would you do?

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<v Speaker 1>Would you prefer rather less clients and more money? Almost clients?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes?

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<v Speaker 1>What I found is so interesting about that is I

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<v Speaker 1>when I started one of my businesses early, I used

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<v Speaker 1>to just do business for anybody that would allow me

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<v Speaker 1>to do business with them. And I realized the ones

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<v Speaker 1>who paid me the least amount of money were the

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<v Speaker 1>hardest to please, and the ones who paid me more

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<v Speaker 1>like as long as I delivered, I never heard from them.

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<v Speaker 2>And when it happened good. And when it happens like that,

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<v Speaker 2>I think you have to assess right, like is you

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<v Speaker 2>must have had some awareness to recognize that, right at

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<v Speaker 2>some point, like, hey, was that worth all the hard

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<v Speaker 2>egg of stress? Right? Was it? Maybe? Not?

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<v Speaker 1>Absolutely? And so I'm interested in your take on this.

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<v Speaker 1>I sit on a couple of boards and we're going

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<v Speaker 1>through a big contract negotiation with one of that I

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<v Speaker 1>won't mention specifics, but one of the boards I'm working

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<v Speaker 1>on and we are going through contract negotiation with an executive,

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<v Speaker 1>and it reminds me of a situation where he wants

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<v Speaker 1>something or she wants something, and because they were an

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<v Speaker 1>internal candidate, they may not get what they could get

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<v Speaker 1>somewhere else. And so what I learned is even in

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<v Speaker 1>my own experience, I used to do radio way long

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<v Speaker 1>time ago, one hundred years ago, and I realized I

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<v Speaker 1>would never be seen because I came up as an intern.

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<v Speaker 1>I would never be seen as at the same level

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<v Speaker 1>as somebody who came in from a different station, a

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<v Speaker 1>different market, at different et cetera, because I came up internally.

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<v Speaker 1>So sometimes you have to leave and go somewhere else

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<v Speaker 1>to be and recognize and appropriately paid because they saw

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<v Speaker 1>you know, that's little Will or that's little Bolly. So

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<v Speaker 1>you have to leave sometimes in order to get the

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<v Speaker 1>reward for your efforts and experience and etc. Can you

0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:14.240
<v Speaker 1>speak to that.

0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.400
<v Speaker 2>I'm so happy you said that, because some people exactly

0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:21.439
<v Speaker 2>what you said. They grew up in the organization and

0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:24.560
<v Speaker 2>they are loyal Will. I mean, we have all been there.

0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.439
<v Speaker 2>We're like, oh, I used to go back to the

0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:28.320
<v Speaker 2>same place to work every summer when I was in

0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.719
<v Speaker 2>college because I love working there. And they looked out

0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.120
<v Speaker 2>for me, and I would keep going back. And so

0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:37.920
<v Speaker 2>when you feel that familiarity, sometimes it is hard to

0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:42.160
<v Speaker 2>negotiate with leverage. It could also be the opposite, right,

0:12:42.440 --> 0:12:45.720
<v Speaker 2>you know a lot about the company, You have institutional knowledge, right,

0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:47.440
<v Speaker 2>and so there are things that you bring to the

0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:49.960
<v Speaker 2>table that someone coming from the outside won't be able

0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.800
<v Speaker 2>to do. So to me, that's just an additional opportunity, right,

0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:57.160
<v Speaker 2>additional leverage that you can utilize to your advantage and

0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.760
<v Speaker 2>the negotiation. And I say that because something that I

0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.960
<v Speaker 2>like talk about in my book is reframing how you

0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:07.680
<v Speaker 2>see disadvantages as advantages so that you can expand your toolkit.

0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.079
<v Speaker 2>But for people who were in the company and it's

0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.360
<v Speaker 2>best to sort of go somewhere else to start fresh,

0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:17.480
<v Speaker 2>I think that goes both ways. Meaning the company sees

0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.319
<v Speaker 2>you as little little demali and that you know they

0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.360
<v Speaker 2>want someone from the outside, and sometimes the unknown might

0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.360
<v Speaker 2>be more appealing. And I've seen exactly that on boards

0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.280
<v Speaker 2>where you have like an interim person and that person

0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.560
<v Speaker 2>only has that position for a year because they don't

0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:35.360
<v Speaker 2>want people to think that they that they aren't going

0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.960
<v Speaker 2>to get great candidates from the outside because that person

0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:42.920
<v Speaker 2>has an advantage because they're there on the same hand

0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.080
<v Speaker 2>or at the same time. You may also be like,

0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:48.679
<v Speaker 2>you know what, everyone knows me. They're never going to

0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.760
<v Speaker 2>see me as this fully developed professional because I started

0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:54.720
<v Speaker 2>when I was a summer associate, and so I want

0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.199
<v Speaker 2>to start fresh and new. And you also may be

0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:01.360
<v Speaker 2>more emboldened to ask for what you need, right because

0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:03.880
<v Speaker 2>it's not the person who used to have lunch with,

0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:07.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, or to have those water cooler chats with.

0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.640
<v Speaker 2>So I don't think there's like a fast rule on it.

0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.280
<v Speaker 2>It really depends, And I think whatever's going to give

0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.560
<v Speaker 2>you the most confidence to ask for what you need,

0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 2>and perhaps what you want is what you should do.

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.160
<v Speaker 1>How do I know that a role I'm going for

0:14:22.360 --> 0:14:24.360
<v Speaker 1>lasting on compensation at least for now? How do I

0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:27.360
<v Speaker 1>know that a role I'm up for they're open to

0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 1>negotiate if they list the job is, you know, sixty

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.520
<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars a year one hundred thousand? How do I

0:14:32.600 --> 0:14:35.800
<v Speaker 1>know and confidently approach them with like, Hey, is there

0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.440
<v Speaker 1>an opportunity to have a conversation about this, but it

0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:39.800
<v Speaker 1>was listed at that number?

0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.320
<v Speaker 2>I would ask the question, that's the only way you

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:46.920
<v Speaker 2>could know, right, And so sometimes it's it says sixty K,

0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.360
<v Speaker 2>but maybe there's some wiggle room. Sometimes the compensation package

0:14:51.680 --> 0:14:54.200
<v Speaker 2>is not just that salary, right, so sometimes there may

0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.800
<v Speaker 2>be more. And so what I've found is that it

0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 2>depends the question is the time of when the ask occurs, right,

0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.960
<v Speaker 2>because I think most people want if it says sixty K,

0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.000
<v Speaker 2>they may or may not apply for the job if

0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.560
<v Speaker 2>they know they need eighty k. Right, So if you're

0:15:09.600 --> 0:15:11.960
<v Speaker 2>looking at a job opening and you know to cover

0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:15.920
<v Speaker 2>your expenses you need eighty K, that's also it's already

0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:18.280
<v Speaker 2>going to weed out some people. But there may be

0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.440
<v Speaker 2>some people who are like, this is like a great opportunity,

0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.720
<v Speaker 2>I really want it. Maybe it's an organization you want

0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.000
<v Speaker 2>to get your foot in the door, right, and so

0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, let's see, let's just go in there and

0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.280
<v Speaker 2>see if there are any synergies. Let me go through

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.680
<v Speaker 2>the interview process. And so the question is at what

0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:37.480
<v Speaker 2>point during the interview process do you ask about whether

0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.720
<v Speaker 2>there's any flexibility in the compensation. I've seen some people

0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:45.880
<v Speaker 2>have success asking at the beginning before they get too

0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.160
<v Speaker 2>far in the process, because if they know they need

0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:51.280
<v Speaker 2>eighty K, and it's a hard sixty K is really

0:15:51.440 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 2>not the best use of anyone's time to go through

0:15:53.800 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 2>the whole process, meet with eight people, and then you

0:15:56.640 --> 0:15:59.480
<v Speaker 2>get to the enmity they're ready to sign the deal

0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.680
<v Speaker 2>and you're like, see, I need twenty game. Some people

0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:05.960
<v Speaker 2>do it at the beginning. I have actually seen some

0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.760
<v Speaker 2>very successful negotiations because, as you can probably imagine, people

0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:13.120
<v Speaker 2>call me all the time at different stages in their negotiations,

0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.200
<v Speaker 2>and I've seen some very successful ones where and I

0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.160
<v Speaker 2>think this is a really great way to have leverage

0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.000
<v Speaker 2>if you go through the process and you there's a range,

0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.960
<v Speaker 2>and this usually happens when there's a range, so you

0:16:28.000 --> 0:16:31.920
<v Speaker 2>know if they say where it's like starting at sixty

0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:35.560
<v Speaker 2>K as opposed to sixty K or sixty K through

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 2>to eighty K, then to me, that's how you know

0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.560
<v Speaker 2>that there's wiggle room. But if you want to check,

0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:43.760
<v Speaker 2>if you want to confirm, and you want to ask

0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.480
<v Speaker 2>during the interview process, I would wait to see if

0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.280
<v Speaker 2>it's the right fit for both you and for both

0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:53.040
<v Speaker 2>and the others. For the cut organization, I would talk

0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:57.320
<v Speaker 2>to not your boss or future boss, but whoever's in

0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:01.480
<v Speaker 2>h R right, because that gives you some right that

0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:05.080
<v Speaker 2>person can be the intermediary and can ask the questions

0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.960
<v Speaker 2>and find out internally without perhaps you know, rubbing the

0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:11.639
<v Speaker 2>person you're going to be reporting to you the wrong way.

0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.400
<v Speaker 2>So I would utilize that intermediary and I would ask

0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.879
<v Speaker 2>that person, you know, is there any tell me about

0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:21.879
<v Speaker 2>the range? Or can we talk about the range? And

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.679
<v Speaker 2>or can we be how creative can the compensation package be?

0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.200
<v Speaker 2>I like that question will because they might be willing

0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:32.440
<v Speaker 2>to do things that you wouldn't even have considered because

0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.920
<v Speaker 2>there's some precedent internally within the organization, and how would

0:17:35.960 --> 0:17:38.879
<v Speaker 2>you have known that? So they may say, you know,

0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.040
<v Speaker 2>we have a bonus structure that I haven't mentioned. We

0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 2>don't always talk about unless someone asks the question. They say,

0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:52.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, we also have some stock options or something

0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:58.000
<v Speaker 2>similar to deferred packages. They may have some restrictive stock

0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 2>units right that require you to be employed for a

0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:04.440
<v Speaker 2>certain period of time. So maybe you say, okay, I'll

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:07.359
<v Speaker 2>sign on for three years and I won't leave for

0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.679
<v Speaker 2>three years because you know, because you know that for

0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.280
<v Speaker 2>over that three year period your RSUs will vest. So

0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.280
<v Speaker 2>there are a lot of different ways to be strategic

0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:22.600
<v Speaker 2>about come and to ask and to think about who

0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.480
<v Speaker 2>you're asking and when you're asking, whether there's flexibility and

0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.359
<v Speaker 2>the amount that they're offering at the start.

0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what I hear you saying, which I think is

0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.000
<v Speaker 1>really good, is you've got to be clear on what

0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.639
<v Speaker 1>is the value to you, What is the worth to

0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.080
<v Speaker 1>you of this role, because the employer is clear on

0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:43.159
<v Speaker 1>what it's worth to them, but if you're walking in,

0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:45.919
<v Speaker 1>you're not sure what it's worth to you to do this.

0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:47.760
<v Speaker 1>And I think about this from this perspective of I

0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:50.680
<v Speaker 1>hear so many people who are public figures and they

0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.760
<v Speaker 1>won't get on the stage unless they're making X. And

0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.720
<v Speaker 1>while I understand that because a lot of people will

0:18:56.720 --> 0:18:59.240
<v Speaker 1>take advantage of you and use you to sell tickets

0:18:59.240 --> 0:19:02.879
<v Speaker 1>and they won't pay you anything. Sometimes there's just a

0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.560
<v Speaker 1>sage you need to be on that isn't paying. But

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.480
<v Speaker 1>it puts you in a position to be in front

0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:09.919
<v Speaker 1>of people that you may need to be in front of.

0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.040
<v Speaker 1>So you have to not see it, to your point

0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:14.920
<v Speaker 1>as dollars, but then what other benefits are there and

0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:16.280
<v Speaker 1>you got to measure those as well.

0:19:17.920 --> 0:19:20.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm happy you said that too, because you're what I'm

0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.520
<v Speaker 2>hearing too is opportunity costs right there you go, and

0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:26.680
<v Speaker 2>some things, yeah, some things aren't just dollars and cents.

0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:28.639
<v Speaker 2>I teach at law school and I talk to my

0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.520
<v Speaker 2>law students a lot, and as you're getting ready to

0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.240
<v Speaker 2>go out into the world as a young lawyer, there

0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:35.880
<v Speaker 2>are a lot of things you have to think about,

0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:38.760
<v Speaker 2>especially if you think about like a general contract. Right,

0:19:38.840 --> 0:19:41.200
<v Speaker 2>people asking this all the time, well can you do

0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:44.399
<v Speaker 2>this under the contract? And I'll look at the terms

0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:46.840
<v Speaker 2>of the contract with the strict interpretation and say yes.

0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:49.200
<v Speaker 2>But then the next question that should that should follow

0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.840
<v Speaker 2>is should you do yes right? So should you do it?

0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:57.560
<v Speaker 2>You can't be allowed to do it right? Well, you can,

0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:00.560
<v Speaker 2>what should you? And I think the same thing applies

0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.639
<v Speaker 2>to the situation where you know, and it happens a

0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.560
<v Speaker 2>lot well, where people all want a piece of view,

0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.880
<v Speaker 2>and there's only so much time, and sometimes a good

0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:13.199
<v Speaker 2>way to evaluate what you should be doing with that

0:20:13.320 --> 0:20:16.560
<v Speaker 2>time it comes down to just comes down to math, right,

0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:20.639
<v Speaker 2>and economics. But I do think that sometimes there is

0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:22.640
<v Speaker 2>a stage you should be on, and sometimes you don't

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.400
<v Speaker 2>know how that's going to lead to the next opportunity,

0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.760
<v Speaker 2>and so sometimes you just kept a sort of follow

0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:31.040
<v Speaker 2>where the path will lead you, but everyone doesn't always

0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.600
<v Speaker 2>have the benefit of being able to do that.

0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:36.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought up the conversation of

0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.080
<v Speaker 1>you know, your legal background and your students, because I was.

0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:40.880
<v Speaker 1>I was having a conversation with a friend of mine

0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:43.720
<v Speaker 1>and she's a female black attorney and she went to

0:20:44.280 --> 0:20:48.439
<v Speaker 1>Howard to do her law studies and we had this

0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.160
<v Speaker 1>really interesting conversation. Actually mentioned this one another previous episode

0:20:52.200 --> 0:20:55.520
<v Speaker 1>where she was taught that you know, when you grow up,

0:20:55.520 --> 0:20:57.800
<v Speaker 1>you watch Law and Order and you watch these attorneys

0:20:57.800 --> 0:21:01.160
<v Speaker 1>on TV. You know, they're banging the desk in the courtroom,

0:21:01.200 --> 0:21:02.960
<v Speaker 1>and their white guys or their white ladies, and they're

0:21:03.000 --> 0:21:05.120
<v Speaker 1>doing all this louds and stuff, and you know, being

0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.480
<v Speaker 1>really aggressive in the courtroom. And she said, her professor say,

0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:11.680
<v Speaker 1>you can't do that, though, because you will be seen

0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.199
<v Speaker 1>differently than that white guy or that white lady, or

0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:17.760
<v Speaker 1>that less milanated person. But you, as a black woman,

0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:20.280
<v Speaker 1>you go in that courtroom and you started slamming your

0:21:20.280 --> 0:21:22.159
<v Speaker 1>fist on the desk, They're going to see you a

0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.960
<v Speaker 1>whole different way. And so the reason I position this

0:21:25.040 --> 0:21:28.280
<v Speaker 1>question this way is is are there differences in how

0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:32.000
<v Speaker 1>we need to negotiate versus what our counterparts can get

0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:32.399
<v Speaker 1>away with.

0:21:33.560 --> 0:21:39.840
<v Speaker 2>I love this question. You know, perception is really huge

0:21:40.359 --> 0:21:45.680
<v Speaker 2>and where everyone has control over what they say, how

0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:48.240
<v Speaker 2>they say it, you know, we can be very thoughtful

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:52.360
<v Speaker 2>about it. And on the other side of communication, it's

0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:55.439
<v Speaker 2>how the person is hearing it and receiving it and

0:21:55.560 --> 0:22:05.400
<v Speaker 2>perceiving it right. And that's going to be based on experience, exposure, exposure, education, bias,

0:22:06.400 --> 0:22:10.040
<v Speaker 2>implicit bias. It could be a whole series of things.

0:22:10.600 --> 0:22:15.800
<v Speaker 2>And so when we're talking about this example of attorneys, like,

0:22:15.800 --> 0:22:19.280
<v Speaker 2>I can't speak for every field, but the last time

0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:23.080
<v Speaker 2>I checked the ABA stats, I think only like a

0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:26.880
<v Speaker 2>very small percentage of lawyers were for black for example,

0:22:27.920 --> 0:22:31.080
<v Speaker 2>let's say two percent or five percent, and maybe two

0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.240
<v Speaker 2>percent where women or something to that effect. It was

0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:37.520
<v Speaker 2>a very small amount. And so if you think about that,

0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:43.399
<v Speaker 2>that means that the dominant perception of what a lawyer

0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:48.840
<v Speaker 2>looks like, sounds like, ats like, talks like in general

0:22:49.240 --> 0:22:54.639
<v Speaker 2>is still that of a white male, right, And so

0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 2>then if you have to think about that being the

0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:01.920
<v Speaker 2>culture around the law, then how do you be your

0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:08.720
<v Speaker 2>authentic self in this area where authenticity has been defined

0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:15.080
<v Speaker 2>and popularized on TV in a certain way, right, And

0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:19.479
<v Speaker 2>so I like the question a lot because perception is

0:23:19.800 --> 0:23:22.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's amazing to me you can say something

0:23:22.760 --> 0:23:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the same way as someone else, but if you look

0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:30.359
<v Speaker 2>like me, someone can say, well, you seem angry and defensive,

0:23:30.480 --> 0:23:33.240
<v Speaker 2>and then you're just like, well, I wasn't angry or defensive,

0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:37.240
<v Speaker 2>but now I am, like, wait, now I am because

0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.199
<v Speaker 2>you just said like two words that you probably shouldn't

0:23:40.240 --> 0:23:43.840
<v Speaker 2>have said to me, only because I was frustrated and annoyed,

0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:48.520
<v Speaker 2>which is within the whole realm of human emotion based

0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:52.480
<v Speaker 2>on this situation. So I think what's interesting about that.

0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:55.880
<v Speaker 2>I saw a movie recently that had Jamie Fox in it,

0:23:56.720 --> 0:23:58.960
<v Speaker 2>and he was a lawyer based on a real case,

0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:01.840
<v Speaker 2>and he was like a lawyer from the South and

0:24:01.880 --> 0:24:03.840
<v Speaker 2>he was working on this big case and you know

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:04.880
<v Speaker 2>what we were talking about.

0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:09.360
<v Speaker 1>It was so good, yes, and it was.

0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.240
<v Speaker 2>So good, and he didn't change his you know, he

0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:15.200
<v Speaker 2>was still sort of like this amazing person. But then

0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:17.560
<v Speaker 2>he and he was the same way. And then there

0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:20.080
<v Speaker 2>was a black woman lawyer on the other side, and

0:24:20.240 --> 0:24:22.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, she went to Howard, which I was like, yes,

0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:26.439
<v Speaker 2>and you know, they still had a lot of respect

0:24:26.480 --> 0:24:28.920
<v Speaker 2>for each other even though they were across from each other,

0:24:28.960 --> 0:24:31.439
<v Speaker 2>because again, you know, and they got they hired her

0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:33.000
<v Speaker 2>by the way, because they were like, oh, the other

0:24:33.040 --> 0:24:35.560
<v Speaker 2>side has like a prominent black attorney, so they knew

0:24:35.600 --> 0:24:37.480
<v Speaker 2>they need to get another prominent black attorney on the

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:40.840
<v Speaker 2>other side. So I say all this to say, yes,

0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:43.600
<v Speaker 2>the burial, it was so good, it was so good.

0:24:44.280 --> 0:24:46.480
<v Speaker 2>And so I tell us to say that I do

0:24:46.720 --> 0:24:49.920
<v Speaker 2>think that. And let me let me preface this by saying,

0:24:51.160 --> 0:24:55.119
<v Speaker 2>I went to Spelman for undergrad I went to Middlebury,

0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:57.879
<v Speaker 2>which at that time was still called Monterey Institute of

0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:02.560
<v Speaker 2>National Studies, which was say, half international, half Americans. In California,

0:25:02.840 --> 0:25:05.320
<v Speaker 2>I went to Howard Law. I've also been to over

0:25:05.359 --> 0:25:07.720
<v Speaker 2>fifty countries and six continents. So I want to be

0:25:07.760 --> 0:25:10.000
<v Speaker 2>clear that when I'm making these statements, it's not like

0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:13.439
<v Speaker 2>for me speaking in a vacuum. It's for me having

0:25:13.560 --> 0:25:18.040
<v Speaker 2>studying abroad in four countries. It's for me traveling extensively.

0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:21.600
<v Speaker 2>It's for me like being in different rooms where I

0:25:21.720 --> 0:25:25.119
<v Speaker 2>was the youngest, the only woman, the only woman of color,

0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:28.760
<v Speaker 2>the only black women, and also seeing other people in

0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:33.359
<v Speaker 2>these spaces and places, and having had extensive conversations and

0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:37.320
<v Speaker 2>having conducted a lot of research. So research is key

0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:39.840
<v Speaker 2>because it's not just about like, my perception, but what

0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:43.120
<v Speaker 2>are the studies also showing. So do I think that

0:25:43.880 --> 0:25:49.280
<v Speaker 2>in many spaces there's still a perception of what is

0:25:50.720 --> 0:25:56.240
<v Speaker 2>acceptable from some people and unacceptable from others one hundred

0:25:56.240 --> 0:25:59.520
<v Speaker 2>percent one hundred percent. And that's not just limited to

0:25:59.720 --> 0:26:01.480
<v Speaker 2>my field of the law.

0:26:02.760 --> 0:26:07.320
<v Speaker 1>So I'm interested in your perspective on this thing. So historically,

0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:09.120
<v Speaker 1>at least as a non lawyer, you know, at least

0:26:09.160 --> 0:26:12.439
<v Speaker 1>my view of the law is like if we disagreed

0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:16.520
<v Speaker 1>on something thirty forty fifty years ago, you know, you're

0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:18.359
<v Speaker 1>in court, like we sue, you sue You mean I

0:26:18.480 --> 0:26:21.520
<v Speaker 1>sue you were in court today. You have all these

0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:26.280
<v Speaker 1>alternative dispute resolution avenues, you can take mediation, you know,

0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:28.560
<v Speaker 1>all these all these things. I'll let you talk about

0:26:28.600 --> 0:26:31.680
<v Speaker 1>the various types. Can you talk about how those types

0:26:31.680 --> 0:26:36.400
<v Speaker 1>of things are evolving and what in what circumstances you

0:26:36.440 --> 0:26:38.560
<v Speaker 1>would go down each particular route.

0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:41.840
<v Speaker 2>This is such a great question. I know you hear

0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:43.639
<v Speaker 2>me saying that a lot, but sometimes you know, people

0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:48.000
<v Speaker 2>don't ask great questions and you're just like zero, I

0:26:48.040 --> 0:26:50.440
<v Speaker 2>WoT to answer, but you asked, and I knew you

0:26:50.480 --> 0:26:52.560
<v Speaker 2>would because I listened to your podcast and I love it.

0:26:52.880 --> 0:26:56.000
<v Speaker 2>You're a wonderful, wonderful host, and I'm a big fan.

0:26:56.400 --> 0:26:58.600
<v Speaker 2>So stop my fan girling for a moment to answer you.

0:26:59.119 --> 0:27:02.439
<v Speaker 2>I appreciate it, but it's it's I'm telling you the truth.

0:27:04.000 --> 0:27:08.600
<v Speaker 2>You know. Like you said many years ago, the only

0:27:08.680 --> 0:27:14.880
<v Speaker 2>way people knew how to seek justice for any type

0:27:14.920 --> 0:27:17.439
<v Speaker 2>of claim they had was to go to court. You

0:27:17.480 --> 0:27:20.080
<v Speaker 2>still see it on TV. I'm going to sue you.

0:27:20.080 --> 0:27:22.960
<v Speaker 2>You see all the time, nobody is like, I'm gonna

0:27:22.960 --> 0:27:29.439
<v Speaker 2>take you to mediation. Nobody said, right, it doesn't have

0:27:29.520 --> 0:27:33.840
<v Speaker 2>the same like stupid right, I'm gonna get an arbitrator.

0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:39.080
<v Speaker 2>What Like nobody, nobody ever ever says that, and so

0:27:39.760 --> 0:27:43.879
<v Speaker 2>and so. It became something that people knew just like,

0:27:44.000 --> 0:27:46.080
<v Speaker 2>if something's wrong, I'm going to call police, right Like

0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:50.640
<v Speaker 2>that was the only area that people knew to call

0:27:50.760 --> 0:27:53.320
<v Speaker 2>if something happened. I know, someone a bear was in

0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:55.280
<v Speaker 2>their trash and they called the police. I was like,

0:27:55.320 --> 0:27:59.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm a bear. I was just like, you call That's

0:27:59.520 --> 0:28:02.160
<v Speaker 2>that's what came to their mind. They're the bear going

0:28:02.160 --> 0:28:05.919
<v Speaker 2>through our trash. Call nine one. What like, I'm not

0:28:06.040 --> 0:28:09.280
<v Speaker 2>aunting them, but I'm just like, I'm the bear. So

0:28:10.280 --> 0:28:14.119
<v Speaker 2>for people who have an issue, for many years, it

0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:17.280
<v Speaker 2>was just a standard some you do something wrong to me,

0:28:17.480 --> 0:28:19.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to see you. If I follow in your store,

0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:21.439
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to see you. If I can't, if I

0:28:21.440 --> 0:28:24.080
<v Speaker 2>need a business divorce, right, I'm going to see you.

0:28:24.320 --> 0:28:27.600
<v Speaker 2>And that was just how it worked, and most contracts

0:28:28.400 --> 0:28:32.000
<v Speaker 2>reflected that right. So contracts, if there was any claim

0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:34.439
<v Speaker 2>that needed to be brought, it would talk about what

0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:36.920
<v Speaker 2>would happen and what jurisdiction would you go to court?

0:28:37.160 --> 0:28:39.760
<v Speaker 2>What would be the choice of law or the governing

0:28:39.880 --> 0:28:44.840
<v Speaker 2>law for this situation, And that's how it was. Many

0:28:44.920 --> 0:28:51.240
<v Speaker 2>years ago you started to see more industries adopt alternative

0:28:51.280 --> 0:28:56.600
<v Speaker 2>dispute resolution processes in their contracts. So, for example, most

0:28:56.600 --> 0:29:00.480
<v Speaker 2>people have a cell phone. Right, if you ever have

0:29:00.600 --> 0:29:03.080
<v Speaker 2>some free time and you want to read the terms

0:29:03.080 --> 0:29:05.920
<v Speaker 2>of use, which people just say yes to you all

0:29:05.960 --> 0:29:08.400
<v Speaker 2>the time, not this nerd. I'm like, oh, what is

0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:10.840
<v Speaker 2>this saying? What am I going to to use this phone?

0:29:10.960 --> 0:29:13.280
<v Speaker 2>Do I need to get a pager? But at the

0:29:13.400 --> 0:29:16.240
<v Speaker 2>point is you ever, if you ever look at it,

0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:20.080
<v Speaker 2>what you'll see is that if you have any claim

0:29:20.080 --> 0:29:24.000
<v Speaker 2>that you want to bring, you have relinquished your right

0:29:24.160 --> 0:29:29.040
<v Speaker 2>to go to jury trial and you've accepted arbitration as

0:29:29.280 --> 0:29:34.320
<v Speaker 2>the forum for your complaint. And what's interesting about that

0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:36.760
<v Speaker 2>is not just for your phone, if you're on a computer,

0:29:36.920 --> 0:29:38.920
<v Speaker 2>like you're on a computer, I'm assuming, or you have

0:29:38.960 --> 0:29:43.120
<v Speaker 2>a video camera, all these different tech you know, all

0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:47.200
<v Speaker 2>this different technology. Often in schools, if your kid is

0:29:47.200 --> 0:29:50.000
<v Speaker 2>in a private school and there's a contract, all these

0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:54.880
<v Speaker 2>different things are now usually instead of going to litigation,

0:29:55.480 --> 0:30:01.120
<v Speaker 2>are preferring first, usually negotiation. Right in the a continuum

0:30:01.120 --> 0:30:05.120
<v Speaker 2>of dispute resolution processes, there's negotiation first where there's no

0:30:05.240 --> 0:30:08.959
<v Speaker 2>third party. Then there's mediation. Well there's sort of shuttle diplomacy.

0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:11.560
<v Speaker 2>So what you see happening when a president goes from

0:30:11.560 --> 0:30:14.680
<v Speaker 2>country to country to try to get you know, sides

0:30:14.800 --> 0:30:18.600
<v Speaker 2>to agree. You have that shuttle diplomacy or conciliation, and

0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:21.280
<v Speaker 2>then you have mediation where you have a third person

0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:26.200
<v Speaker 2>who's involved. And with like negotiation or conciliation or mediation,

0:30:26.600 --> 0:30:29.160
<v Speaker 2>that third person in the middle isn't making a decision.

0:30:29.480 --> 0:30:33.320
<v Speaker 2>So contracts will say, you know, try to negotiate first.

0:30:33.360 --> 0:30:35.840
<v Speaker 2>And if that doesn't doesn't work. Go to mediation. I'm

0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 2>also a mediator, and so you can find someone who

0:30:38.960 --> 0:30:42.200
<v Speaker 2>can literally get in the middle and help you try

0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:45.600
<v Speaker 2>to reach a resolution. And then you have arbitration. Now

0:30:45.640 --> 0:30:47.880
<v Speaker 2>you have a person who is a decision maker.

0:30:48.320 --> 0:30:48.520
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:30:49.680 --> 0:30:53.800
<v Speaker 2>The thing about arbitration is that it's not that different

0:30:53.920 --> 0:30:56.760
<v Speaker 2>from litigation, where you have a judge or a jury

0:30:56.760 --> 0:31:00.520
<v Speaker 2>of your peers deciding the fate of the situation. But

0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:05.960
<v Speaker 2>with now, with mediation and arbitration, these processes are being

0:31:06.000 --> 0:31:10.640
<v Speaker 2>put into contracts because it's a better business roof. And

0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:14.040
<v Speaker 2>what I mean by that is hugely faster. It's usually

0:31:14.200 --> 0:31:18.440
<v Speaker 2>less expensive to go to court, and many jurisdictions in

0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:21.040
<v Speaker 2>many states sometimes you can follow claim and you may

0:31:21.080 --> 0:31:24.920
<v Speaker 2>not see a judge for several years, will several years.

0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:29.760
<v Speaker 2>You may not even have your first hearing for eighteen months. Right. So,

0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.440
<v Speaker 2>to imagine if you were in a situation that was

0:31:32.480 --> 0:31:35.880
<v Speaker 2>time sensitive. What if your neighbor is encroaching on your land.

0:31:36.240 --> 0:31:39.000
<v Speaker 2>What if something is happening in your job and you're like,

0:31:39.080 --> 0:31:41.280
<v Speaker 2>what am I supposed to do in the meantime? What

0:31:41.440 --> 0:31:44.680
<v Speaker 2>you want to separate? As you don't know what to do.

0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:48.720
<v Speaker 2>Some of these processes are faster and you can control

0:31:48.760 --> 0:31:52.600
<v Speaker 2>the cost. Litigation is very expensive, so you can control

0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:57.280
<v Speaker 2>the cost. It's more efficient. And then with mediation especially,

0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:00.320
<v Speaker 2>you can have your day in court. And what I

0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:03.080
<v Speaker 2>mean by that is you can speak, you can you

0:32:03.120 --> 0:32:05.440
<v Speaker 2>can come and say how you feel, you can say

0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:08.400
<v Speaker 2>how it's made you feel. It's less formal of a

0:32:08.480 --> 0:32:12.400
<v Speaker 2>process than arbitration and then litigation, which is at the

0:32:12.520 --> 0:32:15.920
<v Speaker 2>end of the continuum of dispute resolution. And so when

0:32:15.960 --> 0:32:19.120
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about how things have changed, I've seen companies

0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:25.120
<v Speaker 2>recognize that having a dispute resolution process embedded into a

0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:29.680
<v Speaker 2>contract or if you look at your employment agreement in general,

0:32:29.840 --> 0:32:32.080
<v Speaker 2>or if you look at your phone in terms of

0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:37.440
<v Speaker 2>user computer or almost almost everything now they're incorporating. You know,

0:32:37.480 --> 0:32:41.920
<v Speaker 2>they're thinking about how to not just speed up the

0:32:41.960 --> 0:32:44.280
<v Speaker 2>process if there's an issue, but how to keep the

0:32:44.360 --> 0:32:48.720
<v Speaker 2>cost down. A lot of money is spent fighting claims

0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:52.600
<v Speaker 2>and all industries. Tech is not, you know, on the

0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:55.520
<v Speaker 2>outside of this and all industries. So it's just a

0:32:55.560 --> 0:32:56.440
<v Speaker 2>smart businessman.

0:32:57.440 --> 0:33:00.120
<v Speaker 1>So finally I give you this. So I'm interested that

0:33:00.280 --> 0:33:04.520
<v Speaker 1>in your best toolkit for getting into a negotiation when

0:33:04.560 --> 0:33:06.520
<v Speaker 1>you know you're about to walk into one. What do

0:33:06.600 --> 0:33:08.280
<v Speaker 1>you say I should be equipped with it, and I'm gonna

0:33:08.280 --> 0:33:10.240
<v Speaker 1>give you what I think, and then I'll let you

0:33:10.240 --> 0:33:13.280
<v Speaker 1>tell me if it's a good strategy or so. My

0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:17.880
<v Speaker 1>strategy is to think, I want to do my best

0:33:18.000 --> 0:33:21.880
<v Speaker 1>to understand what that person wants, and if I can

0:33:21.960 --> 0:33:26.160
<v Speaker 1>understand what they want, I can position myself to either say,

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:28.240
<v Speaker 1>you know what what they want, what I'm willing to

0:33:28.280 --> 0:33:30.560
<v Speaker 1>give them for what to help me it they want.

0:33:30.600 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 1>That helps me determine if it's even a fit for me.

0:33:33.160 --> 0:33:36.040
<v Speaker 1>But if I know what they want, I understand how

0:33:36.080 --> 0:33:42.520
<v Speaker 1>to approach them with my alternative take or my ability

0:33:42.560 --> 0:33:45.160
<v Speaker 1>to assist them in getting what they want, and then

0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:48.040
<v Speaker 1>so all the other things waterfall from there. If I

0:33:48.120 --> 0:33:50.240
<v Speaker 1>understand what you try, what you're trying to get out

0:33:50.240 --> 0:33:53.080
<v Speaker 1>of this, then I'm better equipped to make sure that

0:33:53.160 --> 0:33:55.280
<v Speaker 1>we find a ground that we both can live with.

0:33:55.720 --> 0:33:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Well, I'm going to say I like that a lot,

0:33:57.640 --> 0:34:00.840
<v Speaker 2>and I can tell that that's been very useful in

0:34:00.880 --> 0:34:03.720
<v Speaker 2>your life, like figuring out what the other side wants

0:34:04.000 --> 0:34:06.280
<v Speaker 2>and then figuring out Okay, now that I know what

0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:08.480
<v Speaker 2>they want, then I can try to meet what their

0:34:08.520 --> 0:34:11.680
<v Speaker 2>wants and then also get what I want to right,

0:34:12.040 --> 0:34:13.960
<v Speaker 2>And I like how you said it's like a waterfall

0:34:14.000 --> 0:34:17.560
<v Speaker 2>down from there. I think that's a really smart strategy, Will,

0:34:17.600 --> 0:34:20.279
<v Speaker 2>And if it works for you, you keep on doing it.

0:34:20.360 --> 0:34:22.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Okay, keep.

0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:28.000
<v Speaker 2>Doing What I'm going to say is that I think

0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:33.520
<v Speaker 2>that going into every negotiation, there's there are five foundational elements,

0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:35.880
<v Speaker 2>and I call them the foundational five in my book

0:34:36.760 --> 0:34:40.719
<v Speaker 2>that every negotiation has. And the first one is knowing

0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:43.960
<v Speaker 2>what you want right, and your take on it too

0:34:44.080 --> 0:34:45.640
<v Speaker 2>is what does the other side want? And I'll get

0:34:45.800 --> 0:34:48.280
<v Speaker 2>to that in the moment. But for the foundational five,

0:34:48.600 --> 0:34:50.640
<v Speaker 2>know what you want and by the way, things that

0:34:50.680 --> 0:34:53.400
<v Speaker 2>you have to know no, So you have to know

0:34:53.440 --> 0:34:57.720
<v Speaker 2>what you want, know what you need, know how to

0:34:57.280 --> 0:35:01.160
<v Speaker 2>to actively listen, know how to communicate, and know when

0:35:01.200 --> 0:35:03.680
<v Speaker 2>to close, because how many times have you gotten like one, two, three,

0:35:03.719 --> 0:35:05.600
<v Speaker 2>and four, but you didn't know when to stop, You

0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:07.480
<v Speaker 2>didn't know when to walk away, And it was like

0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:10.120
<v Speaker 2>now is now a good time? So what should I do?

0:35:10.680 --> 0:35:13.560
<v Speaker 2>And so when I hear you talking about knowing what

0:35:13.560 --> 0:35:16.400
<v Speaker 2>the other person wants, I love that and I'm going

0:35:16.480 --> 0:35:18.719
<v Speaker 2>to push you. I'm going to push you Will to

0:35:18.760 --> 0:35:22.839
<v Speaker 2>say go past the want, because the one is what

0:35:22.880 --> 0:35:26.560
<v Speaker 2>they're articulating that they want, and get to the why

0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:29.759
<v Speaker 2>do they want it? That's the need Because people will

0:35:29.880 --> 0:35:32.480
<v Speaker 2>tell you what they want all the time. You know,

0:35:32.719 --> 0:35:34.840
<v Speaker 2>I want to raise, I want a new car, I

0:35:34.880 --> 0:35:37.359
<v Speaker 2>want to get ready before I'm thirty. You know what

0:35:37.440 --> 0:35:41.799
<v Speaker 2>they want. But when you start to unpack that, understand

0:35:42.040 --> 0:35:44.560
<v Speaker 2>why they want it, because you may not be able

0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:46.920
<v Speaker 2>to get them. You meet them where they are. What

0:35:47.040 --> 0:35:48.960
<v Speaker 2>if you know what I want? Right? What if I

0:35:49.080 --> 0:35:52.960
<v Speaker 2>tell you I want X and you know that, but

0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:55.400
<v Speaker 2>you don't know why I want it? To think about like,

0:35:55.800 --> 0:35:59.080
<v Speaker 2>if you knew why I wanted it, then maybe you

0:35:59.080 --> 0:36:02.239
<v Speaker 2>can help me meet that need a different way, maybe

0:36:02.280 --> 0:36:04.879
<v Speaker 2>even in a way that I didn't think about it. Right.

0:36:05.600 --> 0:36:07.080
<v Speaker 2>And I know you can do this because when we

0:36:07.120 --> 0:36:10.440
<v Speaker 2>were chatting and I was asking some questions about podcasting,

0:36:10.800 --> 0:36:13.919
<v Speaker 2>you you you heard what I needed. So it might

0:36:14.000 --> 0:36:16.480
<v Speaker 2>just be a little bit of semantics with want and need, right,

0:36:17.120 --> 0:36:20.080
<v Speaker 2>I do think that they're different. I do think that

0:36:20.120 --> 0:36:25.520
<v Speaker 2>when people say that they want is usually more fixed.

0:36:25.960 --> 0:36:28.480
<v Speaker 2>And if you can figure out the need and to

0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:33.480
<v Speaker 2>your point, like where there's some shared common goals and

0:36:33.560 --> 0:36:37.239
<v Speaker 2>common ground then everything does water fall from there. And

0:36:37.360 --> 0:36:39.560
<v Speaker 2>part of that what I'm hearing you say, and I

0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:41.960
<v Speaker 2>know that you do because you're very successful, is you

0:36:42.040 --> 0:36:44.520
<v Speaker 2>have to be listening to them. People don't always listen

0:36:44.560 --> 0:36:46.919
<v Speaker 2>when someone else is talking. Well, I mean, you've made

0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:49.800
<v Speaker 2>a career of listening to people. I mean, so you

0:36:50.320 --> 0:36:53.200
<v Speaker 2>get it. But people don't always listen. They don't listen

0:36:53.280 --> 0:36:55.560
<v Speaker 2>because they don't they're thinking about what they're going to

0:36:55.600 --> 0:36:58.799
<v Speaker 2>say next. They are not listening because they don't like

0:36:58.920 --> 0:37:01.799
<v Speaker 2>what they're hearing, right, so they stop listening. And if

0:37:01.800 --> 0:37:05.040
<v Speaker 2>we're being honest, sometimes people don't listen because they don't

0:37:05.080 --> 0:37:07.560
<v Speaker 2>like the other person who's talking, right. They have no

0:37:08.160 --> 0:37:10.560
<v Speaker 2>regard for that person, and they don't want to hear

0:37:10.600 --> 0:37:13.359
<v Speaker 2>what they're saying. But the way that you learn what

0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:16.960
<v Speaker 2>someone wants and what they need is to actively listen

0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:20.080
<v Speaker 2>to what they're saying and perhaps hearing what they aren't

0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:26.120
<v Speaker 2>saying right, and seeing the nonverbal cues, and then communicating

0:37:26.160 --> 0:37:30.840
<v Speaker 2>in a way that's thoughtful. Right. That communication to me,

0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:33.759
<v Speaker 2>and I think that's why I put listening first and

0:37:33.800 --> 0:37:38.680
<v Speaker 2>then communicating like it's in order to kind of get

0:37:38.719 --> 0:37:42.080
<v Speaker 2>somewhere in a negotiation. Don't get me wrong, I can talk,

0:37:42.320 --> 0:37:44.839
<v Speaker 2>but I like to listen and kind of take it

0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:47.759
<v Speaker 2>out and then know when to walk away. Did you

0:37:47.880 --> 0:37:50.920
<v Speaker 2>concede too much? Did you give them everything they wanted

0:37:51.000 --> 0:37:53.680
<v Speaker 2>and you only got one or two things that you wanted?

0:37:53.760 --> 0:37:56.799
<v Speaker 2>But are they weigh the same? Right? Maybe what you

0:37:57.080 --> 0:38:00.799
<v Speaker 2>wanted was really what you needed, right, And so it's

0:38:00.840 --> 0:38:03.960
<v Speaker 2>okay to close and wrap it up. And so I

0:38:04.080 --> 0:38:08.080
<v Speaker 2>think that if there was one takeaway in terms of

0:38:08.280 --> 0:38:14.160
<v Speaker 2>like getting what you what you need in a negotiation.

0:38:14.400 --> 0:38:17.200
<v Speaker 2>And I always say, like, you know, I don't know,

0:38:17.280 --> 0:38:19.200
<v Speaker 2>will Like there's this song back in the day that

0:38:19.320 --> 0:38:21.680
<v Speaker 2>was like, you don't you can't always get what you want,

0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:23.640
<v Speaker 2>but if you try, sometimes you get what you need.

0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:27.160
<v Speaker 2>And I've said that to like groups of people who

0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:28.799
<v Speaker 2>I'll say are a lot younger than me, and they're

0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:32.319
<v Speaker 2>just like, I've never heard that song. So you know

0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:35.960
<v Speaker 2>this song? I want it, I got it, I want it.

0:38:36.000 --> 0:38:38.120
<v Speaker 1>I know that song.

0:38:38.360 --> 0:38:40.720
<v Speaker 2>That's a more contemporary song. I have to like change

0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:44.759
<v Speaker 2>my analogies, but it's like that, like I feel like

0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:50.400
<v Speaker 2>the reason that I think people are successful in negotiations

0:38:50.400 --> 0:38:54.600
<v Speaker 2>oftentimes goes deeper than helping people get what they want.

0:38:54.840 --> 0:38:57.399
<v Speaker 2>It's like getting what they need. Does that make sense?

0:38:57.480 --> 0:39:00.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it makes total sense. Negotiating wild Black. Where can

0:39:00.320 --> 0:39:01.880
<v Speaker 1>we get it? Tell us about it?

0:39:01.920 --> 0:39:07.600
<v Speaker 2>Like you. I appreciate that. You know my book is

0:39:07.640 --> 0:39:11.719
<v Speaker 2>available anywhere you buy books. Uh, it's everywhere right now.

0:39:11.960 --> 0:39:15.720
<v Speaker 2>The editors at Amazon picked it as a top pick

0:39:16.120 --> 0:39:17.919
<v Speaker 2>for the month of June. They make it as best

0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:21.560
<v Speaker 2>in nonfiction. Evane said, you have to read it as

0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:23.480
<v Speaker 2>thank you so much. Esen said it's one of the

0:39:23.520 --> 0:39:26.879
<v Speaker 2>top fifteen books to dive into this summer. Ebany said

0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:30.640
<v Speaker 2>one of I'm one of blackla, one of black authors

0:39:30.640 --> 0:39:33.400
<v Speaker 2>to read this summer, along with like Questlove and Taraji

0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:36.200
<v Speaker 2>p Henson. I love being in their company. To Rogi's

0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:38.480
<v Speaker 2>from DC like me. I play the drums like Questlove.

0:39:41.520 --> 0:39:44.760
<v Speaker 2>No what we have to have a jam session? Will lot?

0:39:47.640 --> 0:39:50.160
<v Speaker 2>I want to do over a jam session. I want

0:39:50.200 --> 0:39:53.160
<v Speaker 2>to see it over. And you know, I've heard a

0:39:53.160 --> 0:39:54.680
<v Speaker 2>lot of episodes and I didn't know you were a

0:39:54.719 --> 0:39:55.839
<v Speaker 2>drum running. Can you say this.

0:39:57.120 --> 0:39:58.919
<v Speaker 1>About it much? But I've been playing Jones. I was ten.

0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:01.680
<v Speaker 2>I even heard it was an Aaron Samuel say that

0:40:01.760 --> 0:40:05.080
<v Speaker 2>he was traveling doing spoken spoken word. I was so

0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:07.279
<v Speaker 2>impressed and all this time you were a drummer and

0:40:07.320 --> 0:40:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I didn't even know. Yeah, me too, me too. We

0:40:15.080 --> 0:40:17.840
<v Speaker 2>have to have a damn session, you know, I have

0:40:17.920 --> 0:40:21.320
<v Speaker 2>to have a jam session. I The book is everywhere.

0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:23.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think what's as important as knowing that

0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:28.120
<v Speaker 2>it's everywhere everywhere Amazon, Bars and Noble, Target, Walmart everywhere

0:40:28.400 --> 0:40:30.880
<v Speaker 2>is when you read, when you read it, review it.

0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:33.600
<v Speaker 2>I think that that's something that people are buying you.

0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:36.879
<v Speaker 2>That's great. And then review it, you know, tell tell

0:40:36.920 --> 0:40:39.560
<v Speaker 2>people what you think of the book. I spent a

0:40:39.600 --> 0:40:45.000
<v Speaker 2>lot of time writing and researching. The stories are good stories,

0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:47.880
<v Speaker 2>but it's not just story based. We come from a

0:40:47.960 --> 0:40:51.960
<v Speaker 2>people who are storytellers. We agree as right, so the

0:40:52.040 --> 0:40:55.399
<v Speaker 2>stories are are still good stories and there's no legally's will.

0:40:55.520 --> 0:40:58.839
<v Speaker 2>It's not boring. It's like you and I talking right now.

0:40:59.520 --> 0:41:03.040
<v Speaker 2>It's also all on audible. I recorded, I narrated myself.

0:41:03.280 --> 0:41:04.880
<v Speaker 2>They have me in the studio. Well, I wish I

0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:06.000
<v Speaker 2>was playing the drums, but they.

0:41:05.920 --> 0:41:11.120
<v Speaker 1>Have the Molly Peterman So glad to have you. Thank

0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:11.799
<v Speaker 1>you for joining me.

0:41:12.280 --> 0:41:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.

0:41:15.080 --> 0:41:17.480
<v Speaker 1>Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity afro

0:41:17.640 --> 0:41:20.680
<v Speaker 1>Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Networking Night, Hiartmedia and

0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:23.880
<v Speaker 1>it's produced by Morgan Debaun and me Well Lucas with

0:41:23.960 --> 0:41:27.000
<v Speaker 1>the addigital production support by Kate McDonald, Saarah Ergan and

0:41:27.080 --> 0:41:30.080
<v Speaker 1>Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis and Love Beach.

0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:32.239
<v Speaker 1>Learn more about my Guess and other tech. Destructor is

0:41:32.239 --> 0:41:35.360
<v Speaker 1>an innovators at afrotech dot com. The video version of

0:41:35.400 --> 0:41:38.000
<v Speaker 1>this episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube,

0:41:38.040 --> 0:41:41.439
<v Speaker 1>so tap in, enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share

0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:45.000
<v Speaker 1>us to somebody go get your money. Peace and love,