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Speaker 1: Demali Peterman is a highly reguarded and sought after lawyer, mediator, negotiator, educator,

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Speaker 1: and speaker with nearly twenty years of experience in the

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Speaker 1: alternative dispute resolution field. She's founder and CEO of two companies,

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Speaker 1: Breakthrough ADR and Demali Law. Her new book, Negotiating While Black,

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Speaker 1: helps you leverage your unique strends and walk away with

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Speaker 1: the best possible deal. So the first thing you might

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Speaker 1: think about when we talk about negotiation might be compensation.

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Speaker 1: So since she's specifically talking to black people, how bad

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Speaker 1: are we at negotiating count Black Tech Green Money is

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Speaker 1: a production of Blavity Afro Tech on the Black Effect

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Speaker 1: podcast network in iHeartMedia and it's produced by Morgan Debonn

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Speaker 1: and me Well Lucas, with additional production support by Kate

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Speaker 1: McDonald and Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis

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Speaker 1: and Sarah Ergan. Learn more about my guests and other

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Speaker 1: tech disruptors and innovators at afrotech dot com. The video

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Speaker 1: version of this episode will chop to Black Tech Green

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Speaker 1: Money on YouTube. So tap in joining Black Tech Green Money.

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Speaker 1: Share this with somebody, I'll get your money. He's in love.

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Speaker 1: So typically when people write books like this is because

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Speaker 1: they see a need in the marketplace, they see a

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Speaker 1: need in their community, or otherwise see a need somewhere.

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Speaker 1: So let's start with compensation. How bad are we at

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Speaker 1: negotiating compensation?

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Speaker 2: You know, when it comes to compensation, I see a

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Speaker 2: lot of recurring issues. Right. One, people are really afraid

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Speaker 2: of hearing no. And sometimes it's that fear of getting

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Speaker 2: that know And you can call it whatever you want.

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Speaker 2: You can call it a confrontation, you can call it rejection,

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Speaker 2: whatever the case may be. But it's that fear of

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Speaker 2: hearing the know that in the first place may even

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Speaker 2: prevent the person from mustering up the courage to ask, right.

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Speaker 2: And then two, once you get that actual no, that

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Speaker 2: might stall the conversation and prevent you from advancing your needs.

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Speaker 2: And so I don't know if it's that and then

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Speaker 2: the other The third thing that I see too is

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Speaker 2: that people feel as though, how do you assess your value? Right?

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Speaker 2: How do you when you're talking about comp especially if

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Speaker 2: you're in an industry that's not transparent in terms of

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Speaker 2: what people with your education experience, marketability, your specific set

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Speaker 2: of skills, right are earning? How do you know how

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Speaker 2: to how to align your value with your ask, and

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Speaker 2: especially if there's a set amount. So when I think

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Speaker 2: about comp, I think about pre comp so before you

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Speaker 2: get that job, right before you're responding to an ad

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Speaker 2: or what have you, and you currently do not work there,

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Speaker 2: and so you're like, okay, maybe there's a salary range

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Speaker 2: and you're trying to figure out where you put yourself

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Speaker 2: in that range, and so that's that's hard to say.

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Speaker 2: One thing that people use, of course, is what they're

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Speaker 2: currently earning if they're already in the field, so that

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Speaker 2: that's kind of a marker in many jurisdictions. However, it

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Speaker 2: is not permissible legally, as a recruiter can't ask and

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Speaker 2: the company can't ask what you're currently making. For example,

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Speaker 2: in New York, recruiters can't ask you and companies can't

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Speaker 2: ask you what your current salary is. And that's because historically,

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Speaker 2: many people of color, I mean, people who check different

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Speaker 2: boxes were not compensated fairly and they couldn't kind of

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Speaker 2: move out of that bracket to the next bracket because

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Speaker 2: they would have to say what they were being paid.

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Speaker 2: So if you were already being underpaid and then you

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Speaker 2: have to then tell that to the next person, while

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Speaker 2: will they be incentivized to pay you what you're worth

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Speaker 2: or your value or even what the market could bear.

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Speaker 2: If you're making, you know, five thousand dollars, then you

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Speaker 2: can be making one hundred thousand dollars. And so when

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Speaker 2: it comes to comp if it's pre meaning you haven't

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Speaker 2: started there. I really like to encourage people to ask

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Speaker 2: for what you want and ask for what you need, right,

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Speaker 2: and think about why you're asking for what you want.

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Speaker 2: Is it pecked to what you believe your value is?

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Speaker 2: Is it what you know the market will bear? What

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Speaker 2: information do you have because because information is power, So

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Speaker 2: what information do you have that you can use in

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Speaker 2: that conversation. The other part of it will is if

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Speaker 2: you already work somewhere, right, so you already worked there

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Speaker 2: and now you're like ready to seek a pay increase

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Speaker 2: or are you trying to have a pay something where

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Speaker 2: you know you are already there, but you're doing more work.

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Speaker 2: Maybe they give you more responsibilities because someone left, or

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Speaker 2: they restructure the organization and now more has fallen on

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Speaker 2: your shoulders, but they haven't sort of trued up if

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Speaker 2: you will for how much they should be paying you

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Speaker 2: so there are different reasons someone could want a salary

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Speaker 2: increase when they're already employed somewhere that is sometimes more

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Speaker 2: difficult to do too, right, because you don't want to

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Speaker 2: maybe you don't want to ruffle any feathers, or you

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Speaker 2: don't want to come across the wrong way. Maybe the

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Speaker 2: market in general is bad. And so they're all these

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Speaker 2: things that people sort of tell themselves as to why

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Speaker 2: they shouldn't ask for more, tell themselves as still okay

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Speaker 2: if they say no, I'm just going to stop no.

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Speaker 2: So when it comes to conversation, I don't think we're

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Speaker 2: bad at it. I just think that there are many reasons,

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Speaker 2: both like systemically and also economically, like just thinking about

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Speaker 2: general economics, and of course just like the the emotional

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Speaker 2: roller coaster that you may have internally when you're trying

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Speaker 2: to muster up the courage to even make their requests.

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Speaker 2: And then what happens if they say no? I have

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Speaker 2: people ask me this all the time. What if they

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Speaker 2: say no? Will Like, what if you ask for something

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Speaker 2: and they tell you no, does a conversation in there?

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Speaker 2: You yeah, we would you.

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Speaker 1: Say walk away?

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Speaker 2: I think you have to have be very you have

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Speaker 2: to be aware of what your options are, and I

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Speaker 2: think you have to understand where you are in your timeline. So,

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Speaker 2: for example, if you just signed deal or contract, or

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Speaker 2: you just begin working because in some jurisdictions there isn't

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Speaker 2: an employment contract, right, it may just be an offer

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Speaker 2: an acceptance, and then you start working and you're an

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Speaker 2: at well employee. That's my lawyer hat coming up, right.

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Speaker 2: But what if you if you just sign and you

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Speaker 2: just agreed to your salary, and then you get there

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Speaker 2: and you're like, oh man, this is way more than

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Speaker 2: they told me I was going to have to do.

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Speaker 2: And that's happened to all of us right where the

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Speaker 2: responsibilities didn't really fit the job description. What do you do?

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Speaker 2: Do you walk away that is an option that you have.

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Speaker 2: Do you sit it out for a bit and say, okay,

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Speaker 2: let me see how this works some new here, or

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Speaker 2: do you start looking for you know, do you start saying, okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to ask for an increase? Right? The timing

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Speaker 2: of that right may be an issue for a variety

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Speaker 2: of reasons. As a person who has started two companies,

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Speaker 2: you know budget, right, you think about what you're willing

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Speaker 2: to spend and what you're going to do how much

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Speaker 2: money you can out a key to certain things. And

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Speaker 2: so yeah, you could be like I'm going to walk away.

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Speaker 2: You may say I'm going to give it six months.

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Speaker 2: You may say I'll give it a year. You may

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Speaker 2: say I want to have a conversation with the person

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Speaker 2: or the persons who employed me and say, hey, this

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Speaker 2: doesn't really match up to what I thought I was

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Speaker 2: going to be doing, and how can we make this

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Speaker 2: rank and comp. COMP isn't always money, by the way,

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Speaker 2: like COMP could be you want a flexible work schedule.

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Speaker 2: Maybe on every summer Fridays you want off. Maybe you

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Speaker 2: want to work virtually or remotely twice a week. Maybe

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Speaker 2: you want tuition reimbursements so you can seek some additional

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Speaker 2: professional development opportunities. So comp also can be much more

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Speaker 2: expansive than just dollars and cents.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what do you think about that with regards to you.

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Speaker 1: During COVID, so many more people went to freelancing and

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Speaker 1: working for themselves and you know, starting their little you know, boutiques,

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't say litle, but their boutiques and their niche businesses.

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Speaker 1: So is there a difference in how you negotiate when

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Speaker 1: you're talking to an employer like I work for you,

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Speaker 1: I'm a W two versus I'm a ten ninety nine.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's a great question, because I think

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Speaker 2: there's only a difference if you value what you do differently.

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Speaker 2: And so what I'll say to that is, I remember

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Speaker 2: when I first started with my law firm, right, so,

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Speaker 2: when I left working for someone else and I started

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Speaker 2: working for myself, and I remember thinking, Okay, there's some

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Speaker 2: aspects of my work that I'll do at a lower rate.

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Speaker 2: For example, if I were providing pro bono help or

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Speaker 2: providing help I'll say this differently, providing assistance to a

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Speaker 2: nonprofit as opposed to a for profit organization. Should I

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Speaker 2: and should I build for the lawyers who are working

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Speaker 2: for me build a lower rate because it's a nonprofit

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Speaker 2: versus a for profit. Well, at the beginning, yeah, that

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Speaker 2: made sense to me. But then as I started looking

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Speaker 2: at the hours and what we were doing, it's the

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Speaker 2: same amount of work, right, It's the same amount of

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Speaker 2: your time, your resources. And so I think one way

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Speaker 2: to look at it is what makes the most sense

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Speaker 2: if I'm going to work for someone else. There's a

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Speaker 2: comfort that comes along with having a system that's already

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Speaker 2: established and you sort of plug into it, and if

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Speaker 2: there's room for you to get more in the process,

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Speaker 2: by all mean to do it. When you are freelancing,

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes what people encounter is that the market

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Speaker 2: is so vast that someone may be offering the same

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Speaker 2: thing that you're offering at a lower rate, a much

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Speaker 2: lower rate where you can't compete because you need to

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Speaker 2: eat and you have to pay bills. And there are

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Speaker 2: a lot of reasons why that could happen. So I

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Speaker 2: tell people that you know, and I've been through many

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Speaker 2: business programs, right amazing organizations Goldman Sachs ten thousand Small Businesses,

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Speaker 2: Tory Birch Foundation program as well, in addition to others

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Speaker 2: that focused on helping entrepreneurs learn the ropes and really excel.

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Speaker 2: And so some of the things that I've learned I applied.

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Speaker 2: Not only do I apply, I help and teach others.

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Speaker 2: With that being said, I would say if you're in

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Speaker 2: a freelance business, A lot of folks went to freelancing

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Speaker 2: during COVID, as you mentioned, and when you're offering something

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Speaker 2: where the market is saturated, then you have to figure

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Speaker 2: out what you need, right, So are you able to

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Speaker 2: offer it at a lower rate, or do you is

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Speaker 2: it better to have one hundred gigs at a low

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Speaker 2: rate or five gigs? Right? Well, five gigs and get

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Speaker 2: you there? Right? What would you do? What would you do?

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Speaker 1: Would you prefer rather less clients and more money? Almost clients?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: What I found is so interesting about that is I

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Speaker 1: when I started one of my businesses early, I used

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Speaker 1: to just do business for anybody that would allow me

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Speaker 1: to do business with them. And I realized the ones

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Speaker 1: who paid me the least amount of money were the

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Speaker 1: hardest to please, and the ones who paid me more

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Speaker 1: like as long as I delivered, I never heard from them.

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Speaker 2: And when it happened good. And when it happens like that,

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Speaker 2: I think you have to assess right, like is you

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Speaker 2: must have had some awareness to recognize that, right at

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Speaker 2: some point, like, hey, was that worth all the hard

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Speaker 2: egg of stress? Right? Was it? Maybe? Not?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely? And so I'm interested in your take on this.

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Speaker 1: I sit on a couple of boards and we're going

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Speaker 1: through a big contract negotiation with one of that I

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Speaker 1: won't mention specifics, but one of the boards I'm working

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Speaker 1: on and we are going through contract negotiation with an executive,

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Speaker 1: and it reminds me of a situation where he wants

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Speaker 1: something or she wants something, and because they were an

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Speaker 1: internal candidate, they may not get what they could get

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Speaker 1: somewhere else. And so what I learned is even in

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Speaker 1: my own experience, I used to do radio way long

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Speaker 1: time ago, one hundred years ago, and I realized I

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Speaker 1: would never be seen because I came up as an intern.

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Speaker 1: I would never be seen as at the same level

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Speaker 1: as somebody who came in from a different station, a

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Speaker 1: different market, at different et cetera, because I came up internally.

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Speaker 1: So sometimes you have to leave and go somewhere else

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Speaker 1: to be and recognize and appropriately paid because they saw

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Speaker 1: you know, that's little Will or that's little Bolly. So

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Speaker 1: you have to leave sometimes in order to get the

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Speaker 1: reward for your efforts and experience and etc. Can you

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Speaker 1: speak to that.

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy you said that, because some people exactly

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Speaker 2: what you said. They grew up in the organization and

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Speaker 2: they are loyal Will. I mean, we have all been there.

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Speaker 2: We're like, oh, I used to go back to the

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Speaker 2: same place to work every summer when I was in

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Speaker 2: college because I love working there. And they looked out

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Speaker 2: for me, and I would keep going back. And so

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Speaker 2: when you feel that familiarity, sometimes it is hard to

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Speaker 2: negotiate with leverage. It could also be the opposite, right,

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Speaker 2: you know a lot about the company, You have institutional knowledge, right,

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Speaker 2: and so there are things that you bring to the

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Speaker 2: table that someone coming from the outside won't be able

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Speaker 2: to do. So to me, that's just an additional opportunity, right,

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Speaker 2: additional leverage that you can utilize to your advantage and

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Speaker 2: the negotiation. And I say that because something that I

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Speaker 2: like talk about in my book is reframing how you

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Speaker 2: see disadvantages as advantages so that you can expand your toolkit.

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Speaker 2: But for people who were in the company and it's

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Speaker 2: best to sort of go somewhere else to start fresh,

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Speaker 2: I think that goes both ways. Meaning the company sees

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Speaker 2: you as little little demali and that you know they

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Speaker 2: want someone from the outside, and sometimes the unknown might

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Speaker 2: be more appealing. And I've seen exactly that on boards

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Speaker 2: where you have like an interim person and that person

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Speaker 2: only has that position for a year because they don't

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Speaker 2: want people to think that they that they aren't going

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Speaker 2: to get great candidates from the outside because that person

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Speaker 2: has an advantage because they're there on the same hand

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Speaker 2: or at the same time. You may also be like,

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Speaker 2: you know what, everyone knows me. They're never going to

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Speaker 2: see me as this fully developed professional because I started

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Speaker 2: when I was a summer associate, and so I want

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Speaker 2: to start fresh and new. And you also may be

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Speaker 2: more emboldened to ask for what you need, right because

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Speaker 2: it's not the person who used to have lunch with,

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Speaker 2: you know, or to have those water cooler chats with.

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Speaker 2: So I don't think there's like a fast rule on it.

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Speaker 2: It really depends, And I think whatever's going to give

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Speaker 2: you the most confidence to ask for what you need,

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Speaker 2: and perhaps what you want is what you should do.

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Speaker 1: How do I know that a role I'm going for

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Speaker 1: lasting on compensation at least for now? How do I

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Speaker 1: know that a role I'm up for they're open to

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Speaker 1: negotiate if they list the job is, you know, sixty

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars a year one hundred thousand? How do I

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Speaker 1: know and confidently approach them with like, Hey, is there

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to have a conversation about this, but it

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Speaker 1: was listed at that number?

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Speaker 2: I would ask the question, that's the only way you

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Speaker 2: could know, right, And so sometimes it's it says sixty K,

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Speaker 2: but maybe there's some wiggle room. Sometimes the compensation package

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Speaker 2: is not just that salary, right, so sometimes there may

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Speaker 2: be more. And so what I've found is that it

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Speaker 2: depends the question is the time of when the ask occurs, right,

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Speaker 2: because I think most people want if it says sixty K,

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Speaker 2: they may or may not apply for the job if

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Speaker 2: they know they need eighty k. Right, So if you're

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Speaker 2: looking at a job opening and you know to cover

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Speaker 2: your expenses you need eighty K, that's also it's already

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Speaker 2: going to weed out some people. But there may be

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Speaker 2: some people who are like, this is like a great opportunity,

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Speaker 2: I really want it. Maybe it's an organization you want

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Speaker 2: to get your foot in the door, right, and so

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Speaker 2: you know, let's see, let's just go in there and

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Speaker 2: see if there are any synergies. Let me go through

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Speaker 2: the interview process. And so the question is at what

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Speaker 2: point during the interview process do you ask about whether

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Speaker 2: there's any flexibility in the compensation. I've seen some people

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Speaker 2: have success asking at the beginning before they get too

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Speaker 2: far in the process, because if they know they need

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Speaker 2: eighty K, and it's a hard sixty K is really

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Speaker 2: not the best use of anyone's time to go through

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Speaker 2: the whole process, meet with eight people, and then you

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Speaker 2: get to the enmity they're ready to sign the deal

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Speaker 2: and you're like, see, I need twenty game. Some people

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Speaker 2: do it at the beginning. I have actually seen some

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Speaker 2: very successful negotiations because, as you can probably imagine, people

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Speaker 2: call me all the time at different stages in their negotiations,

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Speaker 2: and I've seen some very successful ones where and I

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Speaker 2: think this is a really great way to have leverage

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Speaker 2: if you go through the process and you there's a range,

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Speaker 2: and this usually happens when there's a range, so you

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Speaker 2: know if they say where it's like starting at sixty

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Speaker 2: K as opposed to sixty K or sixty K through

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Speaker 2: to eighty K, then to me, that's how you know

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Speaker 2: that there's wiggle room. But if you want to check,

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Speaker 2: if you want to confirm, and you want to ask

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Speaker 2: during the interview process, I would wait to see if

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Speaker 2: it's the right fit for both you and for both

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Speaker 2: and the others. For the cut organization, I would talk

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Speaker 2: to not your boss or future boss, but whoever's in

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Speaker 2: h R right, because that gives you some right that

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Speaker 2: person can be the intermediary and can ask the questions

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Speaker 2: and find out internally without perhaps you know, rubbing the

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Speaker 2: person you're going to be reporting to you the wrong way.

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Speaker 2: So I would utilize that intermediary and I would ask

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Speaker 2: that person, you know, is there any tell me about

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Speaker 2: the range? Or can we talk about the range? And

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Speaker 2: or can we be how creative can the compensation package be?

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Speaker 2: I like that question will because they might be willing

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Speaker 2: to do things that you wouldn't even have considered because

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Speaker 2: there's some precedent internally within the organization, and how would

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Speaker 2: you have known that? So they may say, you know,

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Speaker 2: we have a bonus structure that I haven't mentioned. We

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Speaker 2: don't always talk about unless someone asks the question. They say,

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Speaker 2: you know, we also have some stock options or something

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Speaker 2: similar to deferred packages. They may have some restrictive stock

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Speaker 2: units right that require you to be employed for a

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Speaker 2: certain period of time. So maybe you say, okay, I'll

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Speaker 2: sign on for three years and I won't leave for

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Speaker 2: three years because you know, because you know that for

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Speaker 2: over that three year period your RSUs will vest. So

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of different ways to be strategic

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Speaker 2: about come and to ask and to think about who

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Speaker 2: you're asking and when you're asking, whether there's flexibility and

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Speaker 2: the amount that they're offering at the start.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what I hear you saying, which I think is

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Speaker 1: really good, is you've got to be clear on what

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Speaker 1: is the value to you, What is the worth to

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Speaker 1: you of this role, because the employer is clear on

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Speaker 1: what it's worth to them, but if you're walking in,

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Speaker 1: you're not sure what it's worth to you to do this.

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Speaker 1: And I think about this from this perspective of I

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Speaker 1: hear so many people who are public figures and they

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Speaker 1: won't get on the stage unless they're making X. And

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Speaker 1: while I understand that because a lot of people will

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Speaker 1: take advantage of you and use you to sell tickets

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Speaker 1: and they won't pay you anything. Sometimes there's just a

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Speaker 1: sage you need to be on that isn't paying. But

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Speaker 1: it puts you in a position to be in front

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Speaker 1: of people that you may need to be in front of.

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Speaker 1: So you have to not see it, to your point

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Speaker 1: as dollars, but then what other benefits are there and

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Speaker 1: you got to measure those as well.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy you said that too, because you're what I'm

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Speaker 2: hearing too is opportunity costs right there you go, and

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Speaker 2: some things, yeah, some things aren't just dollars and cents.

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Speaker 2: I teach at law school and I talk to my

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Speaker 2: law students a lot, and as you're getting ready to

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Speaker 2: go out into the world as a young lawyer, there

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Speaker 2: are a lot of things you have to think about,

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Speaker 2: especially if you think about like a general contract. Right,

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Speaker 2: people asking this all the time, well can you do

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Speaker 2: this under the contract? And I'll look at the terms

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Speaker 2: of the contract with the strict interpretation and say yes.

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Speaker 2: But then the next question that should that should follow

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Speaker 2: is should you do yes right? So should you do it?

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Speaker 2: You can't be allowed to do it right? Well, you can,

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Speaker 2: what should you? And I think the same thing applies

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Speaker 2: to the situation where you know, and it happens a

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Speaker 2: lot well, where people all want a piece of view,

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Speaker 2: and there's only so much time, and sometimes a good

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Speaker 2: way to evaluate what you should be doing with that

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Speaker 2: time it comes down to just comes down to math, right,

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Speaker 2: and economics. But I do think that sometimes there is

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Speaker 2: a stage you should be on, and sometimes you don't

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Speaker 2: know how that's going to lead to the next opportunity,

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Speaker 2: and so sometimes you just kept a sort of follow

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Speaker 2: where the path will lead you, but everyone doesn't always

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Speaker 2: have the benefit of being able to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm glad you brought up the conversation of

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Speaker 1: you know, your legal background and your students, because I was.

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Speaker 1: I was having a conversation with a friend of mine

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Speaker 1: and she's a female black attorney and she went to

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Speaker 1: Howard to do her law studies and we had this

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Speaker 1: really interesting conversation. Actually mentioned this one another previous episode

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Speaker 1: where she was taught that you know, when you grow up,

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Speaker 1: you watch Law and Order and you watch these attorneys

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Speaker 1: on TV. You know, they're banging the desk in the courtroom,

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Speaker 1: and their white guys or their white ladies, and they're

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Speaker 1: doing all this louds and stuff, and you know, being

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Speaker 1: really aggressive in the courtroom. And she said, her professor say,

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Speaker 1: you can't do that, though, because you will be seen

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Speaker 1: differently than that white guy or that white lady, or

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Speaker 1: that less milanated person. But you, as a black woman,

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Speaker 1: you go in that courtroom and you started slamming your

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Speaker 1: fist on the desk, They're going to see you a

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Speaker 1: whole different way. And so the reason I position this

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Speaker 1: question this way is is are there differences in how

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Speaker 1: we need to negotiate versus what our counterparts can get

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Speaker 1: away with.

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Speaker 2: I love this question. You know, perception is really huge

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Speaker 2: and where everyone has control over what they say, how

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Speaker 2: they say it, you know, we can be very thoughtful

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Speaker 2: about it. And on the other side of communication, it's

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Speaker 2: how the person is hearing it and receiving it and

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Speaker 2: perceiving it right. And that's going to be based on experience, exposure, exposure, education, bias,

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Speaker 2: implicit bias. It could be a whole series of things.

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Speaker 2: And so when we're talking about this example of attorneys, like,

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Speaker 2: I can't speak for every field, but the last time

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Speaker 2: I checked the ABA stats, I think only like a

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Speaker 2: very small percentage of lawyers were for black for example,

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Speaker 2: let's say two percent or five percent, and maybe two

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Speaker 2: percent where women or something to that effect. It was

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Speaker 2: a very small amount. And so if you think about that,

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Speaker 2: that means that the dominant perception of what a lawyer

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Speaker 2: looks like, sounds like, ats like, talks like in general

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Speaker 2: is still that of a white male, right, And so

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Speaker 2: then if you have to think about that being the

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Speaker 2: culture around the law, then how do you be your

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Speaker 2: authentic self in this area where authenticity has been defined

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Speaker 2: and popularized on TV in a certain way, right, And

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Speaker 2: so I like the question a lot because perception is

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's amazing to me you can say something

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Speaker 2: the same way as someone else, but if you look

433
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 2: like me, someone can say, well, you seem angry and defensive,

434
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 2: and then you're just like, well, I wasn't angry or defensive,

435
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 2: but now I am, like, wait, now I am because

436
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,199
Speaker 2: you just said like two words that you probably shouldn't

437
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: have said to me, only because I was frustrated and annoyed,

438
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 2: which is within the whole realm of human emotion based

439
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: on this situation. So I think what's interesting about that.

440
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 2: I saw a movie recently that had Jamie Fox in it,

441
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,960
Speaker 2: and he was a lawyer based on a real case,

442
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: and he was like a lawyer from the South and

443
00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: he was working on this big case and you know

444
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 2: what we were talking about.

445
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,360
Speaker 1: It was so good, yes, and it was.

446
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: So good, and he didn't change his you know, he

447
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: was still sort of like this amazing person. But then

448
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: he and he was the same way. And then there

449
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: was a black woman lawyer on the other side, and

450
00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,360
Speaker 2: you know, she went to Howard, which I was like, yes,

451
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 2: and you know, they still had a lot of respect

452
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 2: for each other even though they were across from each other,

453
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:31,439
Speaker 2: because again, you know, and they got they hired her

454
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 2: by the way, because they were like, oh, the other

455
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 2: side has like a prominent black attorney, so they knew

456
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: they need to get another prominent black attorney on the

457
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: other side. So I say all this to say, yes,

458
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: the burial, it was so good, it was so good.

459
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 2: And so I tell us to say that I do

460
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 2: think that. And let me let me preface this by saying,

461
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,119
Speaker 2: I went to Spelman for undergrad I went to Middlebury,

462
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:57,879
Speaker 2: which at that time was still called Monterey Institute of

463
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: National Studies, which was say, half international, half Americans. In California,

464
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 2: I went to Howard Law. I've also been to over

465
00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 2: fifty countries and six continents. So I want to be

466
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: clear that when I'm making these statements, it's not like

467
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,439
Speaker 2: for me speaking in a vacuum. It's for me having

468
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 2: studying abroad in four countries. It's for me traveling extensively.

469
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: It's for me like being in different rooms where I

470
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,119
Speaker 2: was the youngest, the only woman, the only woman of color,

471
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: the only black women, and also seeing other people in

472
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 2: these spaces and places, and having had extensive conversations and

473
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 2: having conducted a lot of research. So research is key

474
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 2: because it's not just about like, my perception, but what

475
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 2: are the studies also showing. So do I think that

476
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 2: in many spaces there's still a perception of what is

477
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: acceptable from some people and unacceptable from others one hundred

478
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: percent one hundred percent. And that's not just limited to

479
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: my field of the law.

480
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: So I'm interested in your perspective on this thing. So historically,

481
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,120
Speaker 1: at least as a non lawyer, you know, at least

482
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,439
Speaker 1: my view of the law is like if we disagreed

483
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: on something thirty forty fifty years ago, you know, you're

484
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 1: in court, like we sue, you sue You mean I

485
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 1: sue you were in court today. You have all these

486
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: alternative dispute resolution avenues, you can take mediation, you know,

487
00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: all these all these things. I'll let you talk about

488
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 1: the various types. Can you talk about how those types

489
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: of things are evolving and what in what circumstances you

490
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:38,560
Speaker 1: would go down each particular route.

491
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: This is such a great question. I know you hear

492
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: me saying that a lot, but sometimes you know, people

493
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 2: don't ask great questions and you're just like zero, I

494
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 2: WoT to answer, but you asked, and I knew you

495
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 2: would because I listened to your podcast and I love it.

496
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 2: You're a wonderful, wonderful host, and I'm a big fan.

497
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 2: So stop my fan girling for a moment to answer you.

498
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,439
Speaker 2: I appreciate it, but it's it's I'm telling you the truth.

499
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: You know. Like you said many years ago, the only

500
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:14,880
Speaker 2: way people knew how to seek justice for any type

501
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,439
Speaker 2: of claim they had was to go to court. You

502
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: still see it on TV. I'm going to sue you.

503
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: You see all the time, nobody is like, I'm gonna

504
00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:29,439
Speaker 2: take you to mediation. Nobody said, right, it doesn't have

505
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: the same like stupid right, I'm gonna get an arbitrator.

506
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: What Like nobody, nobody ever ever says that, and so

507
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 2: and so. It became something that people knew just like,

508
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: if something's wrong, I'm going to call police, right Like

509
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 2: that was the only area that people knew to call

510
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: if something happened. I know, someone a bear was in

511
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: their trash and they called the police. I was like,

512
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: I'm a bear. I was just like, you call That's

513
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 2: that's what came to their mind. They're the bear going

514
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,919
Speaker 2: through our trash. Call nine one. What like, I'm not

515
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: aunting them, but I'm just like, I'm the bear. So

516
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: for people who have an issue, for many years, it

517
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: was just a standard some you do something wrong to me,

518
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to see you. If I follow in your store,

519
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,439
Speaker 2: I'm going to see you. If I can't, if I

520
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: need a business divorce, right, I'm going to see you.

521
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: And that was just how it worked, and most contracts

522
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: reflected that right. So contracts, if there was any claim

523
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: that needed to be brought, it would talk about what

524
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 2: would happen and what jurisdiction would you go to court?

525
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: What would be the choice of law or the governing

526
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: law for this situation, And that's how it was. Many

527
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 2: years ago you started to see more industries adopt alternative

528
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 2: dispute resolution processes in their contracts. So, for example, most

529
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 2: people have a cell phone. Right, if you ever have

530
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: some free time and you want to read the terms

531
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: of use, which people just say yes to you all

532
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 2: the time, not this nerd. I'm like, oh, what is

533
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 2: this saying? What am I going to to use this phone?

534
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 2: Do I need to get a pager? But at the

535
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: point is you ever, if you ever look at it,

536
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: what you'll see is that if you have any claim

537
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 2: that you want to bring, you have relinquished your right

538
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,040
Speaker 2: to go to jury trial and you've accepted arbitration as

539
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 2: the forum for your complaint. And what's interesting about that

540
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: is not just for your phone, if you're on a computer,

541
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: like you're on a computer, I'm assuming, or you have

542
00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: a video camera, all these different tech you know, all

543
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: this different technology. Often in schools, if your kid is

544
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: in a private school and there's a contract, all these

545
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: different things are now usually instead of going to litigation,

546
00:29:55,480 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 2: are preferring first, usually negotiation. Right in the a continuum

547
00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: of dispute resolution processes, there's negotiation first where there's no

548
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 2: third party. Then there's mediation. Well there's sort of shuttle diplomacy.

549
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 2: So what you see happening when a president goes from

550
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,680
Speaker 2: country to country to try to get you know, sides

551
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: to agree. You have that shuttle diplomacy or conciliation, and

552
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 2: then you have mediation where you have a third person

553
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: who's involved. And with like negotiation or conciliation or mediation,

554
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 2: that third person in the middle isn't making a decision.

555
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: So contracts will say, you know, try to negotiate first.

556
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 2: And if that doesn't doesn't work. Go to mediation. I'm

557
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: also a mediator, and so you can find someone who

558
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: can literally get in the middle and help you try

559
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: to reach a resolution. And then you have arbitration. Now

560
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: you have a person who is a decision maker.

561
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: Right.

562
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: The thing about arbitration is that it's not that different

563
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 2: from litigation, where you have a judge or a jury

564
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: of your peers deciding the fate of the situation. But

565
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: with now, with mediation and arbitration, these processes are being

566
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 2: put into contracts because it's a better business roof. And

567
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: what I mean by that is hugely faster. It's usually

568
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 2: less expensive to go to court, and many jurisdictions in

569
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: many states sometimes you can follow claim and you may

570
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 2: not see a judge for several years, will several years.

571
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: You may not even have your first hearing for eighteen months. Right. So,

572
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: to imagine if you were in a situation that was

573
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 2: time sensitive. What if your neighbor is encroaching on your land.

574
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: What if something is happening in your job and you're like,

575
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 2: what am I supposed to do in the meantime? What

576
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 2: you want to separate? As you don't know what to do.

577
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 2: Some of these processes are faster and you can control

578
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 2: the cost. Litigation is very expensive, so you can control

579
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 2: the cost. It's more efficient. And then with mediation especially,

580
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 2: you can have your day in court. And what I

581
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: mean by that is you can speak, you can you

582
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: can come and say how you feel, you can say

583
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 2: how it's made you feel. It's less formal of a

584
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,400
Speaker 2: process than arbitration and then litigation, which is at the

585
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: end of the continuum of dispute resolution. And so when

586
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: you're talking about how things have changed, I've seen companies

587
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 2: recognize that having a dispute resolution process embedded into a

588
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: contract or if you look at your employment agreement in general,

589
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,080
Speaker 2: or if you look at your phone in terms of

590
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: user computer or almost almost everything now they're incorporating. You know,

591
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 2: they're thinking about how to not just speed up the

592
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: process if there's an issue, but how to keep the

593
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: cost down. A lot of money is spent fighting claims

594
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 2: and all industries. Tech is not, you know, on the

595
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: outside of this and all industries. So it's just a

596
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: smart businessman.

597
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: So finally I give you this. So I'm interested that

598
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: in your best toolkit for getting into a negotiation when

599
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: you know you're about to walk into one. What do

600
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: you say I should be equipped with it, and I'm gonna

601
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 1: give you what I think, and then I'll let you

602
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: tell me if it's a good strategy or so. My

603
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: strategy is to think, I want to do my best

604
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 1: to understand what that person wants, and if I can

605
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: understand what they want, I can position myself to either say,

606
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: you know what what they want, what I'm willing to

607
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: give them for what to help me it they want.

608
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: That helps me determine if it's even a fit for me.

609
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: But if I know what they want, I understand how

610
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: to approach them with my alternative take or my ability

611
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 1: to assist them in getting what they want, and then

612
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 1: so all the other things waterfall from there. If I

613
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: understand what you try, what you're trying to get out

614
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: of this, then I'm better equipped to make sure that

615
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: we find a ground that we both can live with.

616
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 2: Well, I'm going to say I like that a lot,

617
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: and I can tell that that's been very useful in

618
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 2: your life, like figuring out what the other side wants

619
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 2: and then figuring out Okay, now that I know what

620
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 2: they want, then I can try to meet what their

621
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 2: wants and then also get what I want to right,

622
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: And I like how you said it's like a waterfall

623
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 2: down from there. I think that's a really smart strategy, Will,

624
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: And if it works for you, you keep on doing it.

625
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, keep.

626
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: Doing What I'm going to say is that I think

627
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 2: that going into every negotiation, there's there are five foundational elements,

628
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 2: and I call them the foundational five in my book

629
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: that every negotiation has. And the first one is knowing

630
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: what you want right, and your take on it too

631
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: is what does the other side want? And I'll get

632
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 2: to that in the moment. But for the foundational five,

633
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: know what you want and by the way, things that

634
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 2: you have to know no, So you have to know

635
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 2: what you want, know what you need, know how to

636
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: to actively listen, know how to communicate, and know when

637
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 2: to close, because how many times have you gotten like one, two, three,

638
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 2: and four, but you didn't know when to stop, You

639
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 2: didn't know when to walk away, And it was like

640
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 2: now is now a good time? So what should I do?

641
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: And so when I hear you talking about knowing what

642
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 2: the other person wants, I love that and I'm going

643
00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: to push you. I'm going to push you Will to

644
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 2: say go past the want, because the one is what

645
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 2: they're articulating that they want, and get to the why

646
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: do they want it? That's the need Because people will

647
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 2: tell you what they want all the time. You know,

648
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 2: I want to raise, I want a new car, I

649
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 2: want to get ready before I'm thirty. You know what

650
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 2: they want. But when you start to unpack that, understand

651
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 2: why they want it, because you may not be able

652
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 2: to get them. You meet them where they are. What

653
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 2: if you know what I want? Right? What if I

654
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: tell you I want X and you know that, but

655
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 2: you don't know why I want it? To think about like,

656
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: if you knew why I wanted it, then maybe you

657
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 2: can help me meet that need a different way, maybe

658
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,879
Speaker 2: even in a way that I didn't think about it. Right.

659
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: And I know you can do this because when we

660
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 2: were chatting and I was asking some questions about podcasting,

661
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,919
Speaker 2: you you you heard what I needed. So it might

662
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 2: just be a little bit of semantics with want and need, right,

663
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 2: I do think that they're different. I do think that

664
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: when people say that they want is usually more fixed.

665
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: And if you can figure out the need and to

666
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 2: your point, like where there's some shared common goals and

667
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 2: common ground then everything does water fall from there. And

668
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 2: part of that what I'm hearing you say, and I

669
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 2: know that you do because you're very successful, is you

670
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: have to be listening to them. People don't always listen

671
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 2: when someone else is talking. Well, I mean, you've made

672
00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:49,800
Speaker 2: a career of listening to people. I mean, so you

673
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: get it. But people don't always listen. They don't listen

674
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: because they don't they're thinking about what they're going to

675
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 2: say next. They are not listening because they don't like

676
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 2: what they're hearing, right, so they stop listening. And if

677
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: we're being honest, sometimes people don't listen because they don't

678
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: like the other person who's talking, right. They have no

679
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 2: regard for that person, and they don't want to hear

680
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 2: what they're saying. But the way that you learn what

681
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: someone wants and what they need is to actively listen

682
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: to what they're saying and perhaps hearing what they aren't

683
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: saying right, and seeing the nonverbal cues, and then communicating

684
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 2: in a way that's thoughtful. Right. That communication to me,

685
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 2: and I think that's why I put listening first and

686
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: then communicating like it's in order to kind of get

687
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 2: somewhere in a negotiation. Don't get me wrong, I can talk,

688
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 2: but I like to listen and kind of take it

689
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,759
Speaker 2: out and then know when to walk away. Did you

690
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 2: concede too much? Did you give them everything they wanted

691
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: and you only got one or two things that you wanted?

692
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 2: But are they weigh the same? Right? Maybe what you

693
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: wanted was really what you needed, right, And so it's

694
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 2: okay to close and wrap it up. And so I

695
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 2: think that if there was one takeaway in terms of

696
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 2: like getting what you what you need in a negotiation.

697
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 2: And I always say, like, you know, I don't know,

698
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,200
Speaker 2: will Like there's this song back in the day that

699
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: was like, you don't you can't always get what you want,

700
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: but if you try, sometimes you get what you need.

701
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: And I've said that to like groups of people who

702
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 2: I'll say are a lot younger than me, and they're

703
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 2: just like, I've never heard that song. So you know

704
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 2: this song? I want it, I got it, I want it.

705
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 1: I know that song.

706
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 2: That's a more contemporary song. I have to like change

707
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 2: my analogies, but it's like that, like I feel like

708
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 2: the reason that I think people are successful in negotiations

709
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: oftentimes goes deeper than helping people get what they want.

710
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 2: It's like getting what they need. Does that make sense?

711
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, it makes total sense. Negotiating wild Black. Where can

712
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: we get it? Tell us about it?

713
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: Like you. I appreciate that. You know my book is

714
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,719
Speaker 2: available anywhere you buy books. Uh, it's everywhere right now.

715
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 2: The editors at Amazon picked it as a top pick

716
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 2: for the month of June. They make it as best

717
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 2: in nonfiction. Evane said, you have to read it as

718
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 2: thank you so much. Esen said it's one of the

719
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 2: top fifteen books to dive into this summer. Ebany said

720
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,640
Speaker 2: one of I'm one of blackla, one of black authors

721
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: to read this summer, along with like Questlove and Taraji

722
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 2: p Henson. I love being in their company. To Rogi's

723
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: from DC like me. I play the drums like Questlove.

724
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:44,760
Speaker 2: No what we have to have a jam session? Will lot?

725
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: I want to do over a jam session. I want

726
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: to see it over. And you know, I've heard a

727
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 2: lot of episodes and I didn't know you were a

728
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 2: drum running. Can you say this.

729
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:58,919
Speaker 1: About it much? But I've been playing Jones. I was ten.

730
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: I even heard it was an Aaron Samuel say that

731
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: he was traveling doing spoken spoken word. I was so

732
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 2: impressed and all this time you were a drummer and

733
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:15,000
Speaker 2: I didn't even know. Yeah, me too, me too. We

734
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 2: have to have a damn session, you know, I have

735
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 2: to have a jam session. I The book is everywhere.

736
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: I mean, I think what's as important as knowing that

737
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 2: it's everywhere everywhere Amazon, Bars and Noble, Target, Walmart everywhere

738
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 2: is when you read, when you read it, review it.

739
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: I think that that's something that people are buying you.

740
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,879
Speaker 2: That's great. And then review it, you know, tell tell

741
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 2: people what you think of the book. I spent a

742
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: lot of time writing and researching. The stories are good stories,

743
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,880
Speaker 2: but it's not just story based. We come from a

744
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: people who are storytellers. We agree as right, so the

745
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,399
Speaker 2: stories are are still good stories and there's no legally's will.

746
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,839
Speaker 2: It's not boring. It's like you and I talking right now.

747
00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 2: It's also all on audible. I recorded, I narrated myself.

748
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 2: They have me in the studio. Well, I wish I

749
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,000
Speaker 2: was playing the drums, but they.

750
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: Have the Molly Peterman So glad to have you. Thank

751
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: you for joining me.

752
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, it's been a pleasure.

753
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 1: Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity afro

754
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Networking Night, Hiartmedia and

755
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: it's produced by Morgan Debaun and me Well Lucas with

756
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: the addigital production support by Kate McDonald, Saarah Ergan and

757
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: Jada McGee. Special thank you to Michael Davis and Love Beach.

758
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,239
Speaker 1: Learn more about my Guess and other tech. Destructor is

759
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 1: an innovators at afrotech dot com. The video version of

760
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: this episode will drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube,

761
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,439
Speaker 1: so tap in, enjoy your Black Tech Green Money, share

762
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,000
Speaker 1: us to somebody go get your money. Peace and love,