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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not supported by the Society of the

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Speaker 1: Blind Eye. Instead, it's supported by the generous donations of

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Speaker 1: our listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash thinking

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Speaker 1: sideways to learn more and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't

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Speaker 1: you never know stories of things we simply don't know

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Speaker 1: the answer too. Well, you're there. Welcome to another episode

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Speaker 1: of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host this week, joined as

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Speaker 1: always by my friends Stephen Devon. Say hi guys, Hi,

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Speaker 1: Hi Joe, Hi, audience, Hey, we love you. Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: it going wild? Uh So this week, according to the emails, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we don't get any email. Somebody sayd us an email. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: just kidding. But uh uh so this week we are

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Speaker 1: going to be talking about another baffling mystery. Sorry to

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Speaker 1: say this one doesn't involve any bloodshed, immulated bodies, or

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Speaker 1: beheadings or anything, so sorry about that. Although I get

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Speaker 1: I do get emails. I got an email a while

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Speaker 1: back from some guys saying we were just focusing too

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Speaker 1: much on bloody stuff. I agree, we always do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we kind of do a lot. So so yeah, no,

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Speaker 1: not really, we did theok, we did that little useless

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Speaker 1: head that somebody stuck in the that the tomb, Yeah

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Speaker 1: there was that one was shut up. I'm sorry that

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Speaker 1: was part of the key chain, I think. Uh where Okay?

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Speaker 1: Back to our story. Uh. It begins in nineteen seventy six.

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Speaker 1: On March sixteenth of that year, Prime Minister Harold Wilson

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Speaker 1: of the United Kingdom suddenly announced that he was resigning

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Speaker 1: his job, just like that. He hadn't even been in

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Speaker 1: it for two years. He also didn't give a reason why,

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Speaker 1: he just said he was quitting. And people have been

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Speaker 1: wondering about it ever since. And so people are saying

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Speaker 1: why did he resign? And this has been going up

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Speaker 1: for thirty plus years and as recently it's just this

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Speaker 1: past August, the Daily Mail in the UK published you

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Speaker 1: had another article about it? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I quote

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Speaker 1: them a little later on, but I'm not totally placing

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Speaker 1: total credence under theory. But just goes to show you

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Speaker 1: in the UK at least this story is actually still

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Speaker 1: talked about. Can we be honest in the UK? If

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Speaker 1: it's been in the Daily Mail more than twice, It's

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Speaker 1: been in the Daily Mail about thirty seven times. Because

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Speaker 1: they love to trot things out on yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: swear they've got like a rollo decks of old stories.

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Speaker 1: Let's kind of like bat Boy. Yeah. I like that

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Speaker 1: boy too. That boy appears in twelve Monkeys, by the way. Yeah, okay, First,

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Speaker 1: just a quick little background. Harold Wilson entered the British

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Speaker 1: Parliament in as a Labor MP. Uh. He was actually

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Speaker 1: it was kind of a Minister of Parliament. Yeah yeah,

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Speaker 1: Member of parliament yeah, not military police. Uh. And it

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Speaker 1: was kind of a fluke in a sense because he

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Speaker 1: was actually in academia and some Labor Party types decided

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Speaker 1: they wanted to put him up to run in this

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Speaker 1: one district. They didn't think he was gonna win. They

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Speaker 1: just wanted a candidate to run, and well, it turns

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Speaker 1: out he won. So he was a part of parliament

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Speaker 1: and he was in parliament for like, you know, thirty

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Speaker 1: years after um and he quickly rose through the ranks

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Speaker 1: in the Labor Party that I didn't mention his Labor

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Speaker 1: and by nineteen sixty three he was shadow Foreign Secretary.

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Speaker 1: You know. So when you're when you're in the opposition,

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Speaker 1: you're out of power of the party, you still have

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Speaker 1: a full minority. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, still you still

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Speaker 1: have a full cabinet, so he's like the minority foreign secretary. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So essentially okay, so you're when you I prefer the

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Speaker 1: way that they do that parliamentary thing like yeah, shadow member. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you got these guys secretary. Yeah. It's almost like Harry

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Speaker 1: Potter was written in the UK or something almost. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you get to wear a cape and everything. It's

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Speaker 1: got a little mask. But uh yeah, okay, opportunity came knocking.

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Speaker 1: Hugh gate Skill, the head of the party that's the

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Speaker 1: Labor Party, was suddenly stricken with a rare disease called

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Speaker 1: systemic lupus uh arithmatosis. I'm sure miss pounced, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: we'll it was. We'll call it lupas. Uh. He just

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Speaker 1: was stricken and suddenly died. Bamn like that. It was

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Speaker 1: at the age of fifty six. It's kind of a

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Speaker 1: shocker for everybody. But of course they had to elect

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Speaker 1: a new leader. There was a there was an election

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Speaker 1: within the party. Harold Wilson was elected as gate Skills successor,

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Speaker 1: and then in the following year in Ateen sixty four,

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Speaker 1: Labor one of the the majority of seats in parliament and

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Speaker 1: Harold Wilson became prime minister just like that? Is that?

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Speaker 1: Is that how it works? Yeah, it's just like it's

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Speaker 1: like the House majority leader is prime minister kind of

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Speaker 1: like that. After the head of the party, then you

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Speaker 1: become prime minister. Interesting And what's what it took me

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Speaker 1: a while to really wrap my head around is that

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Speaker 1: in this country our elections are very regimented. There every

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Speaker 1: four every two two years for certain seats, or every

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Speaker 1: four years for other seats, or six years for the Senate. Right,

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Speaker 1: but if for Parliament it's no, it's it's you can't

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Speaker 1: go more than five years without an election. So at

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Speaker 1: two years you could say, I'm going to prove that

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Speaker 1: we're still strong and having elections, or you could wait

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Speaker 1: till four years or wait till the fifth. It's it's

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Speaker 1: really kind of willing. Nearly a little bit is strength.

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Speaker 1: Like the national elections are like that. Yes, literally, somebody

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Speaker 1: is just like, you know what, let's have an election

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Speaker 1: this year. Yeah. Or sometimes what happens is say if

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Speaker 1: if neither no party wins a majority, I saw the

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Speaker 1: majority in the form of coalition, and sometimes the coalitions,

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Speaker 1: well they start quarreling and they break up and bam

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Speaker 1: and then and I know the Queen comes in at

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Speaker 1: some point in this entire process, but I don't remember

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Speaker 1: where that. Yeah, she comes down and just you know,

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Speaker 1: spank him or something them. So Wilson just ends up

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Speaker 1: random movie prime minister. Yeah, so Harold, Yeah, it becomes

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Speaker 1: prime minister and back to Hugh Gatescale for a second.

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Speaker 1: His death, as I said, was very, very shocking to everybody,

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Speaker 1: and of course it spawned a few conspiracy theories, which

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Speaker 1: gives us a nice little mystery within a mystery, which

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Speaker 1: was he murdered, Yeah, and by whom. It is the

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Speaker 1: one theory that's out there, as the Soviets murdered him

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Speaker 1: because they wanted him out of the way so that

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Speaker 1: their buddy Wilson would be in line for the prime

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Speaker 1: minister slot. But anyway, we'll talk about that later, but

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Speaker 1: it's still a popular theory. It's out there. Harold Wilson

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Speaker 1: served as Prime Minister until nineteen seventy when Labor got

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Speaker 1: turned out, So that's six years six years roughly, and

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Speaker 1: then uh in nineteen seventy four Labor came back in,

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Speaker 1: so he became prime Minister again, and then less than

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Speaker 1: two years later in March sixteen, nineteen seventy six, he

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Speaker 1: announced that he was resigning, and to this day we

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Speaker 1: still don't actually know why. And I'm trying to remember

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Speaker 1: who was it that was prime minister in between, because

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Speaker 1: it was one guy in a four yr span. Believe

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Speaker 1: it was Edward Heath, Yes it was and he So

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Speaker 1: this is where that whole like, we're going to have

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Speaker 1: an election. He decided to do this, you know, to

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Speaker 1: have an election to prove that what he was doing

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Speaker 1: was right and was turned out maybe not, And it

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Speaker 1: turned out he totally got it handed to him. And

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Speaker 1: that's how how Harold ended up back in the back

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Speaker 1: in office. And I don't think Harold actually came in

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Speaker 1: with a resounding majority. I think he had three seats extra.

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Speaker 1: That was about it. So it wasn't huge, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't not to make him prime minister. All right, let's

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Speaker 1: go straight into theories. I mean, that's a short story,

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Speaker 1: don't you think. Yeah, I mean I guess in my

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Speaker 1: mind the answer is pretty short, right, is like being

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Speaker 1: prime minister probably kind of sucks. And he did it

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Speaker 1: for like six years and then he was like, oh crap,

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Speaker 1: this again, and then he did it for a couple

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Speaker 1: of years and he was like, no, no no, no, I

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Speaker 1: really do hate this. By there you go, that's my theory.

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Speaker 1: Episode over. Great, that's a plausible theory. Yeah, that is

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Speaker 1: a plausible theory. But there's many others. Some of them

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Speaker 1: are juicier than that. Yeah, I mean that's a good

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Speaker 1: practical theory. I do have to admit. Yeah. Well, first theory,

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Speaker 1: and this is only a partial theory, was that his

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Speaker 1: wife just wanted out. Because his wife, Mary was uh,

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Speaker 1: he's a very private person and she didn't want to

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Speaker 1: be a politician's wife. No, not really, she was like

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Speaker 1: a professor's wife. Yeah. She really preferred the academic life

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Speaker 1: and what that's then, that's what Harold was originally was

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Speaker 1: an academic and she kind of preferred that, and she

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Speaker 1: didn't like the publicity and all that she did. She

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Speaker 1: didn't like the nastiness of all the politics. And you know,

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Speaker 1: in all the years since she left and then the

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Speaker 1: years since he died, she's pretty much stayed out of

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Speaker 1: the public life and she's not talked to anybody. She's

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Speaker 1: given like one interview in that entire time. I think, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's a very private person. Yeah, she went to like

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Speaker 1: the big events and she would be by his side

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Speaker 1: and go to the dinners and whatnot. There's actually I

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Speaker 1: was looking at through the records and there's a picture

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Speaker 1: of Wilson and his wife and the other prime minister,

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Speaker 1: Harold and his wife Harold hold at at an event.

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Speaker 1: So it was like, wait, wait, which one are we

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Speaker 1: talking about here? I love it? Uh yeah, don't don't

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Speaker 1: lose that picture. By the way, thankfully it was on

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Speaker 1: the international again. Yeah yeah, yeah, that's a good one.

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Speaker 1: But but you know what the problem with the series is,

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Speaker 1: it's a little late to make a career change because

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Speaker 1: your wife wants you to, because he had that thirty

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Speaker 1: some years prior to have come to that decision. Well,

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Speaker 1: but there's also the point of like he was prime

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Speaker 1: minister for six years, right and then they lost. That

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Speaker 1: would have been a really great time if his wife

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Speaker 1: had been like not into the whole politician thing, that

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Speaker 1: she could have said, Okay, great, you've done it right,

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Speaker 1: you've kind of seen this thing through, you've led your

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Speaker 1: party for six years. You did a really good job.

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Speaker 1: It's time to just take a step back. And then

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Speaker 1: that's when, like for me, that's when I would have

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Speaker 1: done it right, And that's when I think the logical

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Speaker 1: time for something like that is not two years after

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Speaker 1: you've become prime minister again in my mind, so I agree,

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Speaker 1: I don't think this theory is good. Yeah, it's if

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Speaker 1: this could have been a factor. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: see the all encompassing theory, right, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 1: It might have been a factor in his thinking. Maybe. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of the stuff that is our theories,

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Speaker 1: not all of them, and a lot of them could

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Speaker 1: very easily have been simply contributing factors. Yeah, I think, Well,

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Speaker 1: and he wasn't. He was in office for how long

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Speaker 1: to seventies six? Break? Well, he was thirty one years.

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Speaker 1: That's a long time to do something that your wife

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Speaker 1: hates and to finally give in Exactly my point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't like. If I don't, I don't get away

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Speaker 1: with doing anything. I was just gonna say, if you

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Speaker 1: were doing something that your wife hated, would you get

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Speaker 1: thirty one years out of it or would you be like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I've done this for ten that was fun. Well, then

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Speaker 1: again I am still podcasting. So she had past, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, she she didn't even like ten Downing Street. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they when they when he won against seventy four, they

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Speaker 1: didn't even move back into it because she really didn't

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Speaker 1: like it. She thought it was a crappy little apartment.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, no ten Downing for her. Uh, let's get

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Speaker 1: to our next one here. And this is the reason.

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Speaker 1: Is the pressure of the whole thing. Reportedly at the

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Speaker 1: time he was drinking like during the day because of

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Speaker 1: his job was so stressful for him. Understandable. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: his wife again, Mary said, this is the one interview

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Speaker 1: she gave said, quote, he'd had enough. There was a

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Speaker 1: seaman strike which he had just dealt with. He told

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Speaker 1: me that he could not deal with it with the

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Speaker 1: same level of energy and the same zest, and possibly

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Speaker 1: he began to feel that his memory was going unquote

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Speaker 1: that's what That's what his why, I said. Apparently just

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Speaker 1: wasn't as enthusiastic about it as he used to be. Go, figure, well,

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Speaker 1: if we gotta we gotta jump back here second though,

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Speaker 1: and say, look at what was going on in the

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Speaker 1: world at the time, both prior to and then during

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Speaker 1: the time that he was serving his second stint. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we're looking at the late sixties. Things are getting kind

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Speaker 1: of dicey. The early seventies, things are starting to fall apart.

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Speaker 1: Economically for Britain, there's their stagflation going on, the unemployment

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Speaker 1: rate is rising. They've got obviously it was three or

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Speaker 1: four states of emergency were called in that four years,

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Speaker 1: which you know is just astronomical because it didn't happen

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Speaker 1: very often reduced work weeks, so people weren't making money.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like it was all kinds of social and

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Speaker 1: economic things that were just going wrong, left, right and center.

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Speaker 1: The crisis. Yeah, especially in the mid seventies well, with

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Speaker 1: the rise of OPEC and the sudden shoot up in

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Speaker 1: oil prices that damaged a lot of Western economies. It

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Speaker 1: took us a long time to get out of that.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't just Britain, but sure they were hard,

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Speaker 1: harder hit than st because we at least produced some oil.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, I guess they produced some from

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Speaker 1: the North Sea, but they're not the big well it

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Speaker 1: hadn't that hadn't really come online, So that was that

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Speaker 1: was the hard part of r C. Oil really didn't

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Speaker 1: come in until the very end of the seventies beginning

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Speaker 1: of the eighties. That was one of the things that

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Speaker 1: really helped Thatcher out is that she you know, there

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Speaker 1: was that economic boom just after she came in because

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Speaker 1: the wells started really producing. Well, let's here for oil wells.

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Speaker 1: I guess, let's kill some more, stay for some cold. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But you can see how the pressure of being the

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Speaker 1: prime minister would just sort of wear on you. It's

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Speaker 1: pretty exciting and glamorous for a while and all that

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Speaker 1: power and everything, but after a while, it does it

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Speaker 1: probably does wear you down. And so the reason I

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Speaker 1: like this theory is that, uh, he didn't want to

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Speaker 1: admit when he was resigning. He didn't want to say that, well, hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm just a big weeding and I can't take the

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Speaker 1: pressure anymore. You know, you're not gonna say that. You're

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Speaker 1: not gonna say, oh my god, I just can't take it.

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Speaker 1: So maybe that's why he said he didn't resign. He

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Speaker 1: wouldn't say why he resigned, you know. I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: a little early in the game to to bring this up,

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Speaker 1: but I wonder about a lot of times when there's

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Speaker 1: the resignation, and it's a resignation in order to put

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Speaker 1: your favorite in the spotlight so that when the next

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Speaker 1: election comes up, they're the incumbent, and therefore they have

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Speaker 1: a better chance of getting elected. And it just suddenly

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Speaker 1: struck me as we're talking about it, like, wait, he

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Speaker 1: didn't do that. No wonder people are so confused by

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Speaker 1: the whole I'm out here, thanks a lot, see you later. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he had a preferred successor really? Uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: so again, I mean Jesus, you know, Harold, you really

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Speaker 1: could have cleared a few things up and spare us

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Speaker 1: a lot of speculation. Yeah. So the pressure, that's another one.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, maybe maybe combined, combined with the

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Speaker 1: wife that was unhappy, you know, and everything else, maybe

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Speaker 1: decided to just screw it. What do we got next? Well,

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Speaker 1: there's another theory, this is popular actually, which is Alzheimer's disease,

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Speaker 1: which is eventually what did kill him. Unfortunately, he died

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Speaker 1: in nineteen years after he resigned. H he was what

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Speaker 1: in his early eighties, way passed. Let me think, No,

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Speaker 1: I think we're tired around like six, do I think?

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Speaker 1: You know? And so nineteen years later, I guess he's

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Speaker 1: around eight. Okay, yeah, close to it, late seventies early

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Speaker 1: I had it written down somewhere in my notes, and

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Speaker 1: I don't see it at all, so I evidently didn't

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Speaker 1: really write it down. Yeah, it's been speculated that Wilson

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Speaker 1: was already experiencing symptoms of it, and as he saw

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Speaker 1: that his memory was was going and he was just

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Speaker 1: kind of losing a little bit, it seems, but like

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Speaker 1: it would have been early. That's really early, because I

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Speaker 1: feel like Alzheimer's takes not so long to really it's

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Speaker 1: pretty rare that it takes more than I mean, typically

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Speaker 1: it's like eight to ten years after diagnosis, and and

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Speaker 1: so between the time when symptoms appeared you finally go

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Speaker 1: see a doctor and they make a diagnosis, it's usually

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Speaker 1: less than three years. So between the time now, between

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Speaker 1: the time that you experienced the first symptoms but you

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Speaker 1: don't realize exactly what it is, and by the time

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Speaker 1: you finally go to the doctor and get it diagnosed,

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Speaker 1: usually you know, less than three years has gone by. Typically. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but the early symptoms can be really subtle. And I

303
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Speaker 1: was reading some stuff about early onset that because there's

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Speaker 1: there's the two the two derivative or two types. There's

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Speaker 1: the early onset, which is anyone under sixty five, and

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Speaker 1: then just standard anyone over sixty five, And there was

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Speaker 1: a study of this family that's got the gene four.

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Speaker 1: They they're just genetically disposed to have it. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: but there's non changes that happen in the brain, and

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Speaker 1: so they've they've been tracking this this family, but they're

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Speaker 1: seeing the beginnings of some of those changes happen as

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Speaker 1: early as eighteen or twenty years of eight. Are we

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Speaker 1: talking like, no, like something that would be noticeable to

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Speaker 1: changes in the brain, not not not noticeable exhibiting symptoms,

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Speaker 1: but the the changes in the brain that then get

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Speaker 1: the ball rolling. So it's possible that we may not

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Speaker 1: know how to diagnose it. But people who are feeling

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Speaker 1: the very very beginnings of this, you know, the anxiety

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Speaker 1: and forgetful listen, things like that that's come in the

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Speaker 1: very early stages. I mean, I don't know that they

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Speaker 1: all they all occur at the same rate. In other words,

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Speaker 1: everybody experiences Alzheimer's at the same progression of symptoms. I

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Speaker 1: think that's accurate. But I think what Joe is saying

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Speaker 1: is that usually when people are starting to see the

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Speaker 1: first symptoms right by the time they've been experiencing those

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Speaker 1: symptoms for about three years, they go to the doctor

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Speaker 1: because I would. I mean, I think most reasonable human beings.

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Speaker 1: Remember this is the seventies though, right, But I'm just

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Speaker 1: saying that typically, right when you start to exhibit symptoms

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Speaker 1: of that nature, you're going to start you're gonna go

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Speaker 1: to the doctor, or you're at least going to mention

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Speaker 1: to your doctor on your whatever exam that you do.

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Speaker 1: You know, hey, I've been noticing I'm a little forgetful.

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Speaker 1: And if that's not a solid number, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: like three years, isn't like everybody gets diagnosed within their

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Speaker 1: first I'm guessing that he probably had probably much more

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Speaker 1: intensive medical care than most of us, get being Probably

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Speaker 1: we probably saw a doctor a lot more often, was

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Speaker 1: checked out, so it was and I agree with you

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Speaker 1: that probably there was a lot of stuff, especially if

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Speaker 1: he was Prime Minister, like the early onset symptoms of

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Speaker 1: kind of anxiety and forgetfulness. Those are things that you

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Speaker 1: would kind of expect anyway, if you're super stressed out

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Speaker 1: and busy all the time. So there's certainly some wiggle

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Speaker 1: room there. But but for him to have, you know,

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Speaker 1: have Alzheimer's at that time and then survive for another

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Speaker 1: twenty years that's the unusual part. Statistically not so likely.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it happens, as you say, statistically is one

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Speaker 1: thing what people, what we see people do sometimes is

350
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Speaker 1: dramatically different. Yeah, and I think that. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: so too. But I mean it could have also been

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Speaker 1: the beginnings of he may have had some early forms

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Speaker 1: of dementia that you know, and then it progressed into

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm making a I said that, I'm by

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Speaker 1: no means versed and in exactly how all the symptoms work.

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Speaker 1: Do we know when he was actually diagnosed with Alzheimer's

357
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Speaker 1: I know, to be honest, I don't know that. I've

358
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Speaker 1: never seen it listed. Well, I mean that's the private thing.

359
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,840
Speaker 1: You don't have to yea, you don't have to say.

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Speaker 1: And then and this doctor, I feel like it was

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Speaker 1: in the early eighties for some reason, so about you know,

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Speaker 1: less than a decade after he left. And that's that's

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Speaker 1: what I was projecting here, based on when he died.

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Speaker 1: It was a diagnosis or actually onset around eighty two,

365
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Speaker 1: diagnosis around eighty five, somewhere around there. You know, statistically speaking,

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Speaker 1: that's about when it should have happened, you know, so

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Speaker 1: so that that would explain why, you know if he's

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Speaker 1: if he's I've always been so sharp. I know everything.

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Speaker 1: I'm on top of it. I know everybody's name. Suddenly

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Speaker 1: I can't focus, I don't know anything, and I am

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Speaker 1: just so beat. I can't do this, and I sometimes

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that's a dedication to the job factor.

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Speaker 1: I can't do this job like I think I should. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and may he did say that his memory was kind

375
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Speaker 1: of going. Yeah, yeah, she did say that. But again

376
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Speaker 1: he was he was around sixty. That might just be

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Speaker 1: normal memory loss, did aging, I don't know, you tell us, Joe,

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Speaker 1: that's sixty. All the drink, but all the drinking probably

379
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Speaker 1: wasn't helping either. Yeah, definitely, Stress of course can cause

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Speaker 1: memory loss. Do we know how much he was actually drinking?

381
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Speaker 1: Not really now, see that's that's the problem. Yeah, you

382
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:34,359
Speaker 1: know he might have in the middle of the day said,

383
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Speaker 1: you know what, poor me, pour me a glass. I'm

384
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Speaker 1: going to have a glass with my lunch because they

385
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: need to calm down. And this was what was this

386
00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,359
Speaker 1: the seventies. Yeah, liquid lunch was a normal thing. It

387
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,480
Speaker 1: was a lot more common back and really was Yeah,

388
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Speaker 1: I remember you remember, I know you're that old Yeah,

389
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: I remember you got written up for it recently too.

390
00:20:56,119 --> 00:21:00,359
Speaker 1: I was just bringing it back, reviving it. Well, I

391
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: know women couldn't work in the office, then it's fine

392
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 1: kind of doing part of it. It's fine, that's right.

393
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: The seventies. Oh, back to her. Back to the theory

394
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:17,280
Speaker 1: though anyway, Alzheimer's right, I forgot what's my name? Yeah,

395
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,159
Speaker 1: the pro part of this theory that I like, it

396
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 1: might explain why Wilson didn't say why he was resigning,

397
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: because he didn't want to tell the world about his disease,

398
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 1: which is kind of disease. Yeah, it's understandable, you know

399
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 1: what I mean. Yeah, they don't don't even need to

400
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,360
Speaker 1: explain why. And Mary took care of him the whole time.

401
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,680
Speaker 1: It's not like except for the at the very very

402
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,920
Speaker 1: very end, that he went anywhere for care. So they

403
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 1: tried to keep it at home and contained as much

404
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: as possible. Yeah, although he was he was actually going

405
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,719
Speaker 1: to to Parliament and stuff, even though he was like

406
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,480
Speaker 1: kind of gone, but he still wanted to go. And

407
00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: so everybody at that time new you know, I guess

408
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Speaker 1: for me, the there's there's not like so much of

409
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Speaker 1: a reason to not say like I'm stepping down to

410
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: to health reasons. That's the thing you see politicians in

411
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Speaker 1: America do all the time. And we might even be

412
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Speaker 1: even more prideful than you know people in the UK,

413
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Speaker 1: and that that there's no reason to hide that there

414
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 1: may be a reason to hide your specific diagnosis, but

415
00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,440
Speaker 1: there's no shame in saying I need to take a

416
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Speaker 1: step down due to illness or for my health or whatever.

417
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 1: There's tons of precedents for it. There's tons of people

418
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:31,919
Speaker 1: have done it in the past. And technically, you know,

419
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Speaker 1: when a politician, at least here in America says, you know,

420
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Speaker 1: I'm resigning my job for health reason, where I'm resigning

421
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,720
Speaker 1: to spend time with my family, that means he got

422
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Speaker 1: caught having sex with one of the one of the

423
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Speaker 1: congressional pages you're saying, and you know what, that's a

424
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 1: fine line, so it means something different. I don't know,

425
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,280
Speaker 1: but that's what it was. A hike in the Appalachian Trail.

426
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:58,880
Speaker 1: So I don't know. Yeah, of course the con part

427
00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,919
Speaker 1: of this whole theory, but also timers as as I

428
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,760
Speaker 1: said earlier, statistically unlikely his memory loss was explainable by

429
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,160
Speaker 1: other things. Uh, and Also that interview that I mentioned

430
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 1: in two thousand seven with Mary Wilson, she said they

431
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: didn't move back into ten Downing Street, as I said

432
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 1: after the nineteen seventy four election, because quote, we knew

433
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,560
Speaker 1: that even if we moved, we wouldn't be in Downing

434
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 1: Street for long unquote, which sounds to me like maybe

435
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: Will was his planning his resignation, maybe even as early

436
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: as nineteen seventy four. Sounds like he told his wife said, hey,

437
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 1: I know it sucks, I know you hate it. We're

438
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: back here. I won't stay more than a year and

439
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: a half. Again, I find that I find that weird

440
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 1: because if he knew that he wasn't going to do it,

441
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: I guess that sometimes there's the line of I'm going

442
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: to further the party versus I'm going to do what

443
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: I should do for myself, because I personally would be like,

444
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 1: you know, let's get my second, you know, pick somebody

445
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: else who I think can do and at least a

446
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 1: passable job, and make them the head of the party,

447
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 1: win this election before as this election is going on,

448
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: so that I don't put myself and the country in

449
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: that position. But I don't know, I'm I'm making it up.

450
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 1: I guess. Yeah, well, you know, I mean, and after

451
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: he left, you know there, I mean, the country didn't

452
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: inspiral out of control. They're still there so far, so

453
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I guess somebody reasonably decent succeeded him.

454
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,880
Speaker 1: So there we go. And who did succeed him? Oh

455
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: you mean who his uh two took over when he resigned,

456
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: successor his successor to the professor. Yeah, um, James Callahan,

457
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: because he's the one who didn't know I'm smart. Damn good. Okay,

458
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: let's move on to our next theory. There's so many

459
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,760
Speaker 1: good theories in this one, which was a blackmail slash

460
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 1: smear campaign. Apparently Wilson said more than once that they

461
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 1: felt that m I five was out to get him,

462
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 1: and he might have had a point, but we'll talk

463
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:51,240
Speaker 1: about that later, because it turns out there may have

464
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: been another intelligence service that was also about to get him.

465
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 1: And this is according to another article. Apparently Wilson was

466
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: supposedly obsessed by the possibility to the South African Intelligence

467
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: Service was out to smear him and other anti apartheid politicians.

468
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: Let's we call this was a mid seventies there was

469
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: still white rule in South Africa. And uh, there had

470
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,680
Speaker 1: been a sex scandal of all a British ampire named

471
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: Jeremy Thorpe Thorpe affairs, they is, it's commonly referred to. Yeah,

472
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: and he had committed a quote unquote indiscretion with a

473
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: male model named Norman's son, Scott. Uh. And he had

474
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,840
Speaker 1: been paying hush money to the model, uh Norman Scott, Yeah,

475
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: from party funds. And and when finally and Scott basically

476
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: out of him. It wasn't the South African Intelligence Service,

477
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: but Scott basically was the guy who sold it to

478
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: the papers and sold his buddy down the river. And

479
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: of course when that came out to the papers, it

480
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: was a little damaging to Jeremy Thorpe's career, as you

481
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: can imagine. Yeah, now which side was Thorpe on? He

482
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: was he was in the Liberal Party, Okay, so he

483
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 1: was in the same party. It was not labor role.

484
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, yeah, people, Yeah, that's close enough. We'll just

485
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 1: say they're the same. But I know, I know all

486
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: you BRIT's, come on, we know everything about Britain. In fact,

487
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: I have answered that we came from there. We know,

488
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: we know all about it. Wilson was convinced that the

489
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: s a I s South African Intelligence Service was behind

490
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: the entire thing. On the eppisode of this article that

491
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 1: was published last year was that Wilson left before sa

492
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: I asked could do the same thing to him. Yeah,

493
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 1: that applies, of course, said he had at least one

494
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: skeleton in his closet. Yeah, exactly. But there really actually

495
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: never was any proof that the South Africans were involved

496
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,960
Speaker 1: in the Thorpe scandal at all, because, I mean Norman

497
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: Scott was really kind of shopping the story around. I

498
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: mean he was the guy that actually well he kept

499
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 1: he kept going back to Thorpe and and Thorpe kept

500
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 1: running around and being a digging about it and trying

501
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 1: to shut him off. Reportedly, he even tried to get

502
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 1: him murder. Yeah, that's well, that's that's what brought it out.

503
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: They hired he went through somebody else who had hired

504
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: a hit man. The all the himen ended up doing

505
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 1: was shooting his dog. No, no, and that that's the

506
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: only casualty in this story was the dog fish called Wanda.

507
00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: Did you ever see that movie? Yeah? Yeah, so Wilson

508
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: may because this this article again was in the Daily Mail.

509
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure. Yeah, uh so I'm not going

510
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: to file that. Yeah, fun, yeah, fun theory. There's another

511
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 1: theory actually that's got a bit more legs to it.

512
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 1: It's actually a lot better documented. It looks like here

513
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: that you've you've you've accidentally typed the same thing twice, Joe,

514
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: because the theory name is the same. Another smear campaign. Yeah,

515
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: pretty close. I said before the Wilson thought m I

516
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: five was out to get him, And this is true.

517
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the Daily Mail might say that

518
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 1: Wilson thought the S A S A I S was

519
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: out to get him. We don't know if that's true

520
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 1: or not. But for sure, Wilson did say My five

521
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,399
Speaker 1: was out to get him. Well, he knew it, he

522
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: knew he had been investigated. Oh yeah, yeah, I'm sorry.

523
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: I thought I thought you were saying it was true

524
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: that the entire organization of m I five was out

525
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: to get him, not that it was true that Wilson thought. Okay, sorry,

526
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 1: I was confused, But yeah, I wasn't the entire organization.

527
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: It was so certain people within the organization, a certain

528
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: number of m I five officers didn't particularly like Wilson.

529
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:35,040
Speaker 1: That they were suspicious of all of associations with various

530
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: Eastern European types. Uh, and he was. He he used

531
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: to actually do business in Europe. He traveled in Russia

532
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: a lot in Eastern Europe, and he had a lot

533
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: of contacts and he had some pretty good friends and

534
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: stuff who were Eastern European armigrades and Uh. In his

535
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: book SpyCatcher, which I'll talk about again in a little bit,

536
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 1: but Peter Wright published a book called SpyCatcher in nine seven,

537
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: which was his memoir of his time in m I five. Yeah,

538
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: good book, and he talks of about this briefly because

539
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: he was approached by a number of m I five

540
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: officers who wanted him to join with them in leaky,

541
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: selacious materials to the press regarding Wilson, to the Labor Party,

542
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:13,840
Speaker 1: to him because they had a dottional election coming up.

543
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: And this is the one a little bit frustrating thing

544
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: about SpyCatcher is he he's not great always about putting

545
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: the dates in. But when certain events happened, Peter Peter right,

546
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: I'm guessing this was before the seventy four election, because

547
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,480
Speaker 1: it was said it was close to his retirement, so

548
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 1: that would have been seventy four I think, and certainly

549
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: m I five was a lot more likely to have

550
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: dirt on Wilson than South Africa. I think Peter Wright

551
00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: briefly considered joining the cabal against Wilson, but then he

552
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 1: finally decided against it because he was nearing the end

553
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,800
Speaker 1: of his career and he didn't want to jeopardize his pension.

554
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: Smart smart move. And actually he he kind of had

555
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: a grudge against m I five because he spent the

556
00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: earliest part of his career with the Admiralty and m

557
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: I five lured him away and he said, well, I'm

558
00:29:57,680 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: going to be leaving behind like fifteen years and we

559
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: keeping the pension if I do that, and they said,

560
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 1: not a problem, we'll make a whole Of course, in

561
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: the end they didn't, so he got a crappy pension,

562
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: really crappy pension, which is one of the reasons he

563
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: wrote SpyCatcher. It was revenge and he wanted the money.

564
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: But it doesn't appear the M I five conspiracy was

565
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: all that successful. Obviously, you know, Wilson wasn't kept out

566
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: of office. Part of the reason probably is they needed

567
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: right in on the plot because he was pretty high level,

568
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: and I'm sure he had access to a lot of

569
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,719
Speaker 1: juicier material than a lot of them did, so they

570
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: didn't get a lot of traction. But another mystery is

571
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: how Wilson found out. And I won't go too deep

572
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: into that, but my candidates for this, this one is

573
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 1: Marrie Oldfield, who was ahead of the m I six.

574
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 1: You've heard about my six, right of course. Yeah, he's

575
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: cousin to the guy near my seven, right. Yeah. I

576
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 1: don't even know how many m I s there are. God,

577
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: it's complicated as F branch D branch, D branch branch.

578
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: I mean, oh my got, there's all kinds of stuff

579
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: possible branch. Yeah, Maurice, but Maurice Oldfield man m I five,

580
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: by the way, then my six. They didn't collaborate exactly.

581
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: They were actually kind of not in great terms. There

582
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: was wasbi yeah, I kind of like that. But apparently

583
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: he become aware of it somehow. Peter Wright wrote in

584
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 1: his book that he had dinner with Oldfield at some

585
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: time sometime after the fact, and that Oldfield kept hinting

586
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: about the whole thing, the little plot against Wilson and stuff,

587
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: kept dropping little hints about and Finally, uh Right came

588
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: clean with him, and Oldfield suggested that Right should make

589
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: a full report to his superiors. But it appears that

590
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 1: Oldfield was already aware of the plot before then, and

591
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: he had a fairly decent relationship, at least at that time,

592
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: with Wilson, so he must have been the guy that

593
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 1: that read it him out of guessing that he could

594
00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 1: have found out from other places. But I like the

595
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: old Field theory. So the question is, of course, has

596
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: did all this plot in cars Wilson to resign early?

597
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: What do you guys think? No, yeah, no, I don't

598
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 1: mean yeah, no, I don't ye am I am I

599
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 1: five had been investigating Wilson since probably about nineteen, multiple times,

600
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 1: so it's yet one more am I five investigation. Oh

601
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: you're snooping around my my garbage can again, okay, yeah,

602
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: and see you next week, same time. Boys trash comes

603
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: at this time. Yeah, I know. So the m I

604
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 1: five things like, well, the m I five pops up

605
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: again in the theory section. Now we were well I

606
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:29,840
Speaker 1: thought we were in theories. Yeah, well yeah later on

607
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: in the theory Okay, yeah, I don't think so. In

608
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: the absence of that, it doesn't look to me like

609
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: they got any dirt on him, at least in terms

610
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 1: of scandalous materials that they could use to discredit him

611
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: or embarrass him and get about of office. So no

612
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: reason to really, you know, I think Wilson was actually

613
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: a fairly upright guy. I don't think. I don't know

614
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: that there was much in the way of you know,

615
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 1: sex scandals and stuff like that on the guy, although

616
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: there was one sex scandal which is our next theory,

617
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: which is his longtime secretary Marsha Williams, who eventually became

618
00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: Lady Falkonder, and that was one of the criticians Wilson

619
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: is that he handed out peerages and things like that

620
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: to way too many of his buddies. Yeah, he did,

621
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 1: including to his secretary. She became Lady Falconder eventually, and

622
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong. Prior to that, the ability

623
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: to hand out peerages sat with the Is it the

624
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: senior whip, I don't remember, I don't know is that

625
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: the correct word. Is it the senior whip? I can't

626
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: remember the name of that title, but that was the

627
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: person who could do it, and then he took it

628
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 1: from them and took it and kept it for himself

629
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 1: as soon as he came into power. Yeah, and so

630
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: aren't the whip just the leader of the party. No,

631
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,080
Speaker 1: he's under the leader of the party, the leader of

632
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: the party to enforce or help encourage other members of

633
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,960
Speaker 1: the party to follow the party. Because I watch House

634
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: of Cards. So I know what whip is because I

635
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 1: only know it because I had to read about it today,

636
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: because I never understood. I was like, there's a dude

637
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: running around Congress with a whip. Seen this? I think

638
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: some he is, Oh, where are we are here? The

639
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: very beginning of this? Okay? Uh? There? There have long

640
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: been rumors about an affair between Marsha Williams secretary, and

641
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: so of course it's thought again somebody got the goods

642
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: on Harold and he was hired rather than face a scandal,

643
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 1: like there's always that though there well, you know, I

644
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 1: mean they were out there anyway. I mean, if somebody

645
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: had actually gotten the goods on him, people would have

646
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,400
Speaker 1: been like how hum. I mean, people have been murmuring

647
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: about this behind his back for years, and so to

648
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: be honest, you know where I think this came from

649
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 1: is the fact that I think Marcia had a lot

650
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: of sway over him. She did not necessarily because they

651
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 1: were doing the deed, but she just had a lot

652
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: of sway. And it's from some of the things that

653
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: I've read gave me the impression that she was part

654
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: of the reason that he was handing out so many peerages.

655
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: And then she was also leaning on other people in

656
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: the party to do things, whether they were what Wilson

657
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 1: wanted to have done or not. So it seems like

658
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: she was just the kind of person who would go

659
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 1: out and say, you need to do this, and keep

660
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,239
Speaker 1: pushing on it because there was somebody was saying, I

661
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: only did it because of that girl, Marsha. I remember

662
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: there's a quote of that somewhere. Apparently she was a

663
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: strong willed lady. That's putting it. That's putting it one way.

664
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: Other people have had less flattering things to say. Well

665
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: for me, I guess you know, when I see assistant,

666
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people think like, oh, executive

667
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: assistant or you know, administrative assistant. That's just like, oh,

668
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: you just file paperwork and whatever. But but in reality,

669
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 1: you know, executive assistant positions and assistant positions like this

670
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 1: are typically like that person when they're gone and it's

671
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: totally possible in my mind that his assistant was in

672
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: fact one of his most trusted advisers. Well, in this case,

673
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: she wasn't just called the secretary. She probably really was

674
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 1: probably more like chief of staff. Yeah, I mean she

675
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: really probably ran a lot of its stuff. Yeah, that

676
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 1: could be a pretty powerful position. I can and if

677
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: you can, you know, foster that trust with someone, you

678
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: can become a really close advisor. And so for me,

679
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: it's not so suspicious that you know, he had a

680
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: crazy close relationship with her and all that she then

681
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: exhibited power or not exhibited power, exerted, exerted thank you,

682
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: I'm always doing the wrong word, but yeah, exerted power

683
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: that sometimes might have been a little bit outside of

684
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: the bounds of what she should have been doing. Maybe

685
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: just in just influence. You have to have power. You

686
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,800
Speaker 1: just have to have the influence over the power. So anyway,

687
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: another theories, Uh, the only thing I can say against

688
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: that one is entirely possible if you work with somebody

689
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: for for decades and you know often you know, sooner

690
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: or later something happens. You know it happens. But uh,

691
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: on the other hand, Mary was best. Mary Wilson was

692
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 1: best buds with her for many many years. Yeah, they

693
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: that and that is of course Harold Wilson's wife, and

694
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: they were besties for a long long time before and

695
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 1: after his death. That that has not stopped many people

696
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: from from committing the adultery still being the best friend

697
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 1: and then still being the best friend to the spouse. Well,

698
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 1: there's other I mean, there's other situations there, right, I mean,

699
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: there's certainly the situation of um, you know, giving permission,

700
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: like saying I know that I'm not doing whatever for

701
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: you or you know whatever, so that kind of open

702
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: relationship hump. But there's also the possibility that maybe Mary

703
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: Wilson was a lesbian and so was his assistant, and

704
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: they were more than best friends, sort of like eleanor

705
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: Roosevelt situation here like that. You know, I've always hesitant

706
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: to say that because they never know if you don't

707
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: know anything, I mean, we don't know anything, right, So,

708
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: like there are a lot of different options for why

709
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: they could have been best friends, and that that don't

710
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,600
Speaker 1: necessarily mean that, you know, she couldn't have also been

711
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: sleeping with Harold, but maybe, but not likely, especially in

712
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: those days. I mean, most people, if you know, you've

713
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 1: had sex with my spouse, I'm probably not going to

714
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: be your buddy, you know, I mean, unless it's an arrangement. Yeah,

715
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 1: and I guess that happens. But I don't know how

716
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 1: often does that happen any stats. I don't know. I

717
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 1: had no idea. Yeah, I'm sure there was a study

718
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 1: done on it once with government funds. I'm sure. Yeah,

719
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: I had no doubt. But well, I'll do some googling

720
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: on that, but not right now. Let's come to our

721
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: little don't don't google forever unclean through that. Okay, I

722
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: won't do that. There's certain things you really don't want

723
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: to google. But our last theory, this is a sexy one.

724
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: I like this one, which is that Wilson actually was

725
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 1: a Soviet mole and m I five finally got the

726
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: goods on him, and rather than had this whole scandal

727
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: of you know, the Prime Minister and all that, they

728
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: just presented him with this irrefutable evidence and he quietly

729
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 1: resigned and retired, which would have been the way they

730
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: rejected his dignity. Yeah, and that would keep the whole

731
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:54,839
Speaker 1: thing under the rug. Yeah, that totally would have been

732
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: a way they would have done it. I mean that

733
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 1: is the way they do it. I mean a lot

734
00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 1: of those guys were actually caught, and they were more

735
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: interesting it in number one, avoiding scandal and embarrassment, because

736
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: every time they found themselves a mole in the rights

737
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: of m I five and my six, well, if it

738
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,439
Speaker 1: blew up into a big public thing, then that means

739
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 1: they lost the confidence of the American cousins who they

740
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: were trying to have a cooperative intelligence sharing relationship with.

741
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: So they tended to like sort of trying to keep

742
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: that stuff in the d L and just let somebody

743
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,759
Speaker 1: quietly retire rather than actually make a make a big

744
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 1: stink about it. And this brings us to a guy

745
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 1: named Norman John Worthington. Worthington was actually a pseudonym for

746
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: Harold Wilson. That was the name that was on the

747
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: file that m I five had on him. That's big

748
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: fat one. I don't know if they still have it not.

749
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah they didn't. Yeah, it was such such a hot

750
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: potato they couldn't. Yeah, they couldn't have his name on

751
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: that file. So I assume it was throughout the file.

752
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: It would have been one of those things where if

753
00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 1: he sat down and read the file cover to cover,

754
00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: he would have figured it out. But at any glance,

755
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: even looking at a couple of pages, you're not going

756
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:00,320
Speaker 1: to figure it out. But it was kept undertight apps

757
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,400
Speaker 1: of course. One of the sources. By the way, as

758
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: I said I talked about earlier with SpyCatcher by Peter

759
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: Wright and which was published in seven um. It was

760
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 1: actually banned in the UK right after his publication. Yea, yeah,

761
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 1: it totally was. But then well then it was discovered

762
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,959
Speaker 1: that they couldn't actually ban it in Scotland, so people

763
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 1: were just going to Scotland and buying take copies. They

764
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: buy take copies for them and their friends, and so yeah,

765
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 1: eventually they had to just like lighten up and let

766
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: let the book be sold everywhere in the UK. But

767
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting book back to the early days

768
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:35,719
Speaker 1: when he was going out and burgling people's flats and

769
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 1: planning bugs and stuff like that, and so it's kind

770
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: of a kind of a cool book. And the way

771
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,560
Speaker 1: they used to do the little cloaker dagger thing way

772
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: back in the fifties and the sixties a lot different

773
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: from today, you know. Yeah, but I can recommend that

774
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: one um, but one suspicious connection. Of course, I don't

775
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: know if I mentioned Joseph Kagan, but this was somebody

776
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: that wait, wait, just just to back up here, so

777
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: you you you've explained to us that he had a

778
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 1: fake name on his m I five file. We've just

779
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: talked about spy catcher. But I'm sort of jumping right. Yeah,

780
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: but but nothing here is saying why they say he's

781
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: a mole. Uh yeah. The reason that Worthyton A k A.

782
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: Wilson had been in a suspicion is due to his travels,

783
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,760
Speaker 1: as I think I said earlier, to places like Russia

784
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,280
Speaker 1: and Eastern Europe, and he had a lot of friends

785
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,600
Speaker 1: and connections with Eastern block type people. Um, and a

786
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 1: lot of these friends and contacts had already come to

787
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:34,040
Speaker 1: the attention to m I five already, just separately and independently.

788
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: So it's kind of inevitable that Wilson was going to

789
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: come into scrutiny to so I think it's it's only

790
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: fair that we point out that between forty seven and

791
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 1: fifty one he was the President of the Board of Trade,

792
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: so part of his job was to go around and

793
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: meet people of industry and other countries for reasons of trade.

794
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: Absolutely and so it's not necessarily illegitimate. It's not as

795
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 1: if he was just like I'm gonna take a vacation

796
00:42:03,719 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: to the Baltics. Yeah, but the of course KGB, one

797
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: of their specialties is in trapping and blackmailing people. So

798
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: you know, we can assume that maybe not, we can

799
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 1: assume that Wilson was careful about that kind of thing. Well,

800
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 1: you gotta hope, so yeah, yeah, yes, uh like that.

801
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: One particularly suspicious guy was Joseph Kagan. He was a

802
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 1: Lithuitian emigree and a successful businessman, but a kg B

803
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 1: agent named olegle Allen. He worked in Place in Britain

804
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: for a while before he defected. And that's an interesting

805
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 1: story is his defection is by catcher because they were

806
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: running in Place and in Britain and the pressure was

807
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: getting to him. He was drinking a lot and this

808
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 1: is not right. But le Allen one night he got

809
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: busted for drunk driving by London police and he was

810
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: hauled down to the jail. So Peter right gets a

811
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: call at like three in the morning saying, hey, get

812
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: you your office and get that special kid out of

813
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: your safe and uh and so he had to go

814
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: down to his office and get this kid. What the

815
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: kid was was it was his collection of every known

816
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: antidote for anti every KGB poison there was. He had

817
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: to go out of the jail with this just in

818
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: case they all know this had been poisoned, because they

819
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 1: they were figuring he was gonna get killed in jail

820
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,879
Speaker 1: by the KGB because it makes him a target because

821
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: now he's he can't get away. Yeah and so, yeah,

822
00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: so and and and so. Anyway, at that point, there

823
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: was no choice. He had a defect. But yeah, I'm

824
00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 1: one of those really interesting little stories that he tells

825
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 1: while he was in place. He's totally my five about

826
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,919
Speaker 1: a friend of his name. I don't know the first name,

827
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,200
Speaker 1: but his last name was on veg Aucus. That sound

828
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: about right, Yeah, okay, veg Aucus Russian Navigascus who was KGB. Also,

829
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 1: he was working at the Sylvia Trade delegation in London,

830
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: and according to vick, Augus told Leland that he was

831
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:50,720
Speaker 1: in contact with Joseph Kagan, Wilson's buddy. And so it's wait,

832
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 1: what's what's the connection between I'm not catching the connection

833
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,760
Speaker 1: between Kagan and Wilson here. They were, they were friends

834
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 1: and associates. They you know they hung out just through

835
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 1: common people or did they have a working relationship, Like

836
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:09,839
Speaker 1: I don't understand how they knew each other. Yeah, they

837
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: seemed to be that kind of like I'm not sure

838
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,320
Speaker 1: if they were like really total socializing together best buds.

839
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,240
Speaker 1: It was one of a business relationship. I know that Kagan,

840
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: for example, did of certain favors like when he was campaigning,

841
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: he loaned him an airplane and actually funded his book

842
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 1: at office and things like that. That that fleshes out

843
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:34,200
Speaker 1: what what this quote unquote relationship is. Yeah, they apparently

844
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: were close in one way or nother even if they were,

845
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: even if they weren't soul mates. Apparently Kagan felt it

846
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 1: was important to like cultivate this friendship. Yeah, and for

847
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:45,680
Speaker 1: his part, Wilson did a little product placement for him.

848
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,359
Speaker 1: He had a raincoat factory in Leeds, Kagan did, and

849
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: so Wilson was always wearing his raincoats. So it's the

850
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 1: product placement. Basically, was it a Macintosh that wasn't a

851
00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: mac Okay? I really wish it had been. Okay, sorry, Yeah,

852
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 1: So so these guys, so there's this this whole triad

853
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: of of Soviets and know each other that then no Wilson, Okay, yeah,

854
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: so that's there's And so obviously having even this rumor,

855
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 1: m I five took a big interest in finding out

856
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 1: what the relationship between Kagan and Vygaucus was and weren't

857
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 1: able to come up as much. Actually they were. They

858
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: were looking for some sort of coret communications. But according

859
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 1: to Kagan, he was interrogated evntionally the East far that

860
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: he only occasionally met by Gaucus for chess games, although

861
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 1: who knows now they were talking in coded coded language

862
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 1: and passing you know, like like secret messages under the

863
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: table maybe, but you know, it was totally innocent. That

864
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 1: could have been totally innocent. Absolutely. Uh. It's one of

865
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,439
Speaker 1: those things though, I mean, once the suspicion is out there,

866
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: I mean it's kind of hard to dispel. Yeah. In

867
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: in ninety four it was this. This is after Wilson

868
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 1: became Prime Minister. James j Angleton you remember him, Yeah,

869
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: and counterintelligence for the CIA came to London to visit

870
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: M BY five and uh, I don't know if you

871
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: remember a Yari Endnssenko episode long long ago. I had

872
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 1: James j Angleton. Yeah, okay, same guy. Every according to Angleton,

873
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 1: everybody was working with the Reds. Yeah, yeah, he was.

874
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,920
Speaker 1: He was a little paranoid, Yeah, definitely. He definitely gave

875
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: a yur Nssenko a hard time, although there's some other

876
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: defectors he seemed to take more seriously. Angleton told him

877
00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: I five that he had a good authority from an

878
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: unnamed source that Wilson was actually a Soviet agent, and

879
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: he offered to provide detailed information if m I F

880
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: I've promised to keep all evidence strictly confidential, as in

881
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,480
Speaker 1: not share it with the government. It just it stays

882
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,280
Speaker 1: strictly with the n M I five. Such a weird,

883
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: weird thing to put down as a requirement. Well, yeah,

884
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 1: I can kind of see it. I mean, and he

885
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't give it some reasons like, well, I don't

886
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 1: want you sharing with ex politicians because I think there's

887
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: a mole somewhere in there in the British government and

888
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: something like that, and maybe that was it. I don't know.

889
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: Generally speaking, you don't if your source is already defected,

890
00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 1: then you don't need to worry so much about protecting

891
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: yoursel ors, right, So maybe that says he had at

892
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 1: an agent place, or maybe that was him just being

893
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 1: a drama queen. But he could He was capable of

894
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: doing that, There's no doubt about that. Um So this

895
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 1: is a conundrum of course, because they wanted what he had.

896
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: But at the same time, the purpose of what they

897
00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 1: did is to provide intelligence to the politicians who had

898
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 1: our governments. Right, otherwise enough, it's just for their consumption.

899
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: Well what so, anyway, they turned the deal down, or

900
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,760
Speaker 1: at least they said they did. There's a general theory

901
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: out there that these allegations came from the Soviet the

902
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 1: vector named anatotly Gleetzen But actually nobody actually knows really

903
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: where they came from. You know, did did Angleton make

904
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: it up? Probably not, I mean, did you get it

905
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 1: from Gleetzon or god knows wherever? Who knows? It was

906
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: a long time ago. Probably everybody had knowledge of it

907
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,440
Speaker 1: is probably dead. It could be. It could be he

908
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: put two and three together and came up with four

909
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 1: different bits of information and he puts them together in

910
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: one way and decides it points at certain person. Yeah,

911
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: I mean that happens all the time in spike craft,

912
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: especially when you just ignore a lot of stuff. Yeah,

913
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 1: that happens that like extra one number from two plus three.

914
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: It works really well in my checking account. Yeah, there's

915
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: that thing you got to be very very careful about

916
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: to fall prey to that, that thing that you want

917
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: to shoehorn everything into the proper theory. You know, you

918
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:22,880
Speaker 1: gotta not fall prey to that. We, of course, a

919
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: thinking side was never do that. No, never at all,

920
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: not once, never have Yeah, but it's an intriguing question

921
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: for me is whether I'm if I've really actually turned

922
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: down that deal, because actually, wow, that would be a

923
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: hard deal to shurn down. I want to know what

924
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: he had to say. Yeah, but the problem is that

925
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: it's not actionable. Well it's not, but it can be. Um,

926
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: it's actuable sense. I mean, if you want to, like,

927
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: you know, like put out a hit on the guy

928
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 1: or something like that, you can always do that. But

929
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,040
Speaker 1: I mean, so it's actuable in that sense. Sorry, nobody

930
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 1: can see me. I'm rolling my eyes that the putting

931
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: up the hit bart I mean, yeah, okay, no, actually

932
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: what Okay, So we'll never know how, but yeah, back

933
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: to Hugh Gates skill though, remember him, the guy who

934
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:14,239
Speaker 1: died very great volunteered to die. You have to make

935
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 1: room for Harold Wilson. Yeah, so he Uh, if you

936
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 1: read the Wicked page about him, they say the only

937
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: source of the assassination room was the same Auditlely Glitsen

938
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: that we were just talking about, And that's actually not true.

939
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 1: The actual rich origin of the story was Gateskill's doctor

940
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,319
Speaker 1: who contacted m I five after he died, and he

941
00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 1: said he was disturbed by the manner of his death

942
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 1: because lupus, that particular part kind of lupas is so

943
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: rare and temperate climate said he felt there was absolutely

944
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 1: no way that that Gatesville could have gotten it. So

945
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,839
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you a question. I did. I did

946
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: reading on lupus in general, but I didn't I didn't

947
00:49:54,600 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 1: catch this particular variant until about five minutes after I

948
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: got here. So I'm going to ask you, did you

949
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:07,720
Speaker 1: ever read to find out if indeed that is true,

950
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: that it is only occurs in places that have a

951
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: different climate than Yeah, now that is that is true.

952
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 1: I mean, although it doesn't that mean you looked at

953
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: this particular kind of loopus restrain of lupus that he had. Yeah,

954
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 1: it's it's it's rare. I mean, it's extremely rare. I mean,

955
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 1: I think even in equatorial climates it's kind of rare.

956
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 1: But in a climate like ours, we have a climate

957
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,359
Speaker 1: very similarly written right here temperature, Yeah, it's just kind

958
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 1: of rare. So yeah, well, I mean, I guess it's

959
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: worth mentioning though, Like lupus is not like you can't

960
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: catch it, well, you can't be given it. Well, this

961
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: is a different breed of lupus apparently, but it's like,

962
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: but you still it's not as though somebody could have

963
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,920
Speaker 1: just injected him with the lupus virus. Well yeah, now,

964
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 1: but actually somebody could have injected him with something, right,

965
00:50:57,200 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: But I think like it's it's important to say that,

966
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: like if realistically he did actually die of lupus, right,

967
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:05,880
Speaker 1: which I don't think his doctor is saying. No, his

968
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,239
Speaker 1: doctor is saying it's weird that he got this kind

969
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: of lupus, but he's not saying he didn't have it. No,

970
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: he had it. He had it, definitely had it. But

971
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 1: it's also important to note that like you couldn't just

972
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 1: somebody couldn't have just injected him with it or like

973
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: given it to him, that it had to have developed

974
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 1: in his own body. Yeah, it's definite issue exactly. It's

975
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 1: not something that he could have been infected with. Well,

976
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: it turns out that the Soviets did experiments on inducing

977
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: this particular kind of lupus in lab rats. How did

978
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,160
Speaker 1: that go for them? It actually worked, Yeah, using a

979
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: certain It didn't go so well for the rats. Yeah,

980
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,040
Speaker 1: now the poor rats. Sorry about that guy. Interesting, So

981
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,800
Speaker 1: it can be induced this, yeah, apparently, rats. Yeah, what

982
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 1: a totally Glets had said, And and of course he

983
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: was supposedly was the sole source of this room, but

984
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 1: not really according to Peter Right. Uh, this is the

985
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: author of spy Catcher. Peter Right, the author SpyCatcher. You

986
00:51:57,480 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: said that that Glets and told him my five and

987
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: let's remember he had no idea about the doctor's suspicions.

988
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,240
Speaker 1: He said that during his last few years with the KGB,

989
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: he had had contact with Department thirteen, which is known

990
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 1: as the Department of Wet Affairs, and this is the

991
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: department responsible for planning assassinations. And according to the Soviet department, Yeah,

992
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: of course, of course, yeah, I said, just before he

993
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: left KGB, he heard that they were planning a high

994
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 1: level political assassination in Europe in order to quote to

995
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: get their man into place unquote, which could have been anybody,

996
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,319
Speaker 1: could have been. He didn't know. He didn't actually say

997
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 1: which country. He didn't know which country was planned for.

998
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: So that's the information again. So they put those two

999
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: things together. Okay, So he died to this really strange

1000
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: and rare disease, and and the KGB was planning a

1001
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:50,919
Speaker 1: hit on some major guy in Europe. So right, Peter

1002
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 1: Wright contracted, of course, every buddy James J. Angleton, and

1003
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:58,360
Speaker 1: asked him for information. Angleton dug up a Soviet scientific

1004
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: research paper and which it turns out they had perfected

1005
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: a procedure to induce lupus and lab rats like at

1006
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: least according to the Soviet paper, according to that paper. Yeah,

1007
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: and I want to note it's according to that paper. Yeah,

1008
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,720
Speaker 1: according to the paper. I'm assuming that it was true.

1009
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: I'm assuming this. I'm I'm making that that because it

1010
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 1: is a is a Soviet paper that the Western world

1011
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: has gotten their hands on. And we have talked many

1012
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:30,879
Speaker 1: times about the practice of disinformation, of sending things out

1013
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: there that are totally bogus to mess with your enemy,

1014
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: that's always a possibility. Yeah, I mean, that's the whole

1015
00:53:39,040 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: that's that whole worlderness and mirrors thing, you know. I mean,

1016
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 1: it's just you never know up from down or right

1017
00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:46,600
Speaker 1: from wrong or anything. I mean, it's kind of crazy,

1018
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: and you can see why I drive so many people

1019
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: to drink. But it's entirely possible, I mean, right, consultant

1020
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: with one of their MPI scidists who said it wasn't

1021
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 1: who said it was, it did appear to be possible,

1022
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 1: and he said that in the seven years since that

1023
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,800
Speaker 1: paper been written, at the time they spoke, it's possible

1024
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: they had perfected the process to the point where they

1025
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: could with a single dose or injection induced lupus and something. Yeah,

1026
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 1: but it does appear that then the Soviets, if they

1027
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: did perfect this assassination tool, does appear they never used

1028
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: it again because the m I five was on the

1029
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 1: lookout for that, and so that would argue against a

1030
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:26,520
Speaker 1: Soviet assassination and Lupa's inducing assassination tool. But at the

1031
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: same time, of course, at the time Peter Wright and

1032
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:31,880
Speaker 1: some other people in m I five suspected that there

1033
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: was actually a highly placed mole and m I five

1034
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 1: which would have met the Soviets have been tipped, and

1035
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 1: so they knew not to use that again, at least

1036
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:44,760
Speaker 1: nowhere near Europe other than Wilson. Yeah, like a Soviet

1037
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: mole old than Wilson high up in Oh yeah, the

1038
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:50,200
Speaker 1: the m I five mole. Yeah that's outside, that's outside

1039
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 1: of parliament. Yeah, that's then by five. Yeah, Soviets were

1040
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: just running the UK government at that time, is what

1041
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,359
Speaker 1: that allegation be lease as right, I mean they had

1042
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 1: they had Wilson who was the Prime Minister, and they

1043
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: had like a high level in the m I five.

1044
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: So yeah. Yeah, although the allegations against Wilson, I gotta say,

1045
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,440
Speaker 1: are pretty sketchy compared to uh, the allegations against then

1046
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 1: we'll talk more of someday about the mole in m

1047
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,560
Speaker 1: I five. Yeah, that's an interesting story and of itself,

1048
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: but I don't want to talk about that now. Of course,

1049
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:22,960
Speaker 1: it could have been that they had no intention of

1050
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,799
Speaker 1: It wasn't about getting Wilson into place. They just wanted

1051
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 1: to get rid of you gate Skill to begin with,

1052
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 1: because he was kind of an outlier for the Labor Party.

1053
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 1: He was a much more conservative, almost Reaganesque kind of guy.

1054
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,839
Speaker 1: I didn't believe in nationalization, which made it put him

1055
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,839
Speaker 1: at odds with labor unions and such. Maybe the labor

1056
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: unions wanted to get rid of maybe they did it. Yeah,

1057
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:43,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. Labor unions tend to be better at

1058
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: organizing strikes and stuff like that than actually coming up

1059
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 1: with ways of inducing lupus. But well, yeah, you can

1060
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: see what it might have thought that gate Skill was

1061
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 1: not the ideal guy to have at the head of

1062
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:57,760
Speaker 1: the Labor Party if they were in the next election.

1063
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: So maybe it was that it wasn't so much for Wilson.

1064
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:03,440
Speaker 1: It's just getting rid of gate skull, alright. So that's

1065
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: about it for the evidence against Wilson. Um. So does

1066
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 1: that put him in the clear? I mean, I agree,

1067
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: it's not super solid, and you'll hear it stated in

1068
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,160
Speaker 1: many places at m I five investigated Wilson and totally

1069
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: cleared him. That's not true. Well, but like like I

1070
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: said before, they had been investigating him for twenty or

1071
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 1: thirty years. Multiple times they would open a new file

1072
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:30,799
Speaker 1: on him and investigat him for whatever reason. So when

1073
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: when the claim is said that he was found to

1074
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 1: be clear, it could be for in the first time

1075
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:38,680
Speaker 1: and the second time, but maybe not the third time.

1076
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:40,719
Speaker 1: When you read that I think that that might be

1077
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 1: part of why people say he was clear or they

1078
00:56:43,719 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: cleared him every time, but they kept reopening it for

1079
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:50,160
Speaker 1: whatever reason, and the last one just never was closed. Yeah,

1080
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 1: but it's in a lot of these cases, it's it's

1081
00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:55,440
Speaker 1: really rare that they, you know, like investigate somebody. I

1082
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,400
Speaker 1: shouldn't say it's really rare, but it's very rare that

1083
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,799
Speaker 1: they totally clear somebody. Yeah, I mean, it's because it's

1084
00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:02,240
Speaker 1: really are too, especially when there's this many little fragments

1085
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:06,040
Speaker 1: of evidence against him. I mean, obviously you know, it's

1086
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 1: not overwhelming by any means, but you can't prove a

1087
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: negative either. I'd have to say the case it's far

1088
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:15,439
Speaker 1: from proven, very very likely he was not a mole

1089
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: based on what I've seen, so I should give him

1090
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: the benefit of the doubts. So, in other words, that theory,

1091
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 1: the theory that he was forced to resign by m

1092
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: I five probably probably bogus. But at the same time,

1093
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: I don't know what I don't know. I mean, maybe

1094
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 1: they maybe the m I five did set him down

1095
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: and show him the dossier and explain the facts of life.

1096
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 1: Maybe they did give him a choice between leaving quietly

1097
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 1: or being forced out of office in disgrace. So my

1098
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: pros in this series it's it's pretty juicy. I like it.

1099
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:45,400
Speaker 1: So I can't think of any cons? Can you against

1100
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: this theory? Yeah? Not other than the ones that I've

1101
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 1: said multiple times. I was gonna say, you just listed

1102
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 1: a bunch of cons and then said here's your one

1103
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: pro pro it's juicy. Yeah, you're editing like the Daily Mail. Now, yeah,

1104
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: I think yeah, unless less always possible. I mean I

1105
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: kind of doubted. I think most likely it was just

1106
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,840
Speaker 1: the pressure that got to him and he just got

1107
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: sick of the whole thing, and that's why he resigned.

1108
00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: I don't think m I five forced him out. I mean,

1109
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: it doesn't appear to me. Again, they might ask, they

1110
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: might have some juicy stuff on him that I'm not

1111
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 1: aware of. Two Maybe they did, and that's certainly what

1112
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:19,920
Speaker 1: they would have done. They would have they would have

1113
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: totally avoided a scandal for sure. And if they have

1114
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: caught him inflagrante, you know, passing information to the Soviets,

1115
00:58:26,040 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 1: they totally would have kept it quiet. But that's about that.

1116
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: But there's nothing, there's absolutely nothing to prove that. So

1117
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: I think we gotta go with the obvious, which is

1118
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 1: that he just got sick of being prime minister. Yeah,

1119
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stick with my original theory, Yeah, which is

1120
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 1: that he just he just he just you know, got

1121
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 1: tired and said, I don't really want to do this again.

1122
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,920
Speaker 1: This kind of sucked, not really interested in it, I think. So,

1123
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:48,040
Speaker 1: you know, there's always that the statement of his wife

1124
00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: that they didn't move in a tin down because they

1125
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 1: knew they weren't going to be there very long. It

1126
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: sounds to me like he maybe made her a promise

1127
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 1: that hey, just a couple more years and I'm out,

1128
00:58:56,280 --> 00:58:59,480
Speaker 1: okay please. Yeah, for the fact that he barely won

1129
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 1: to see eat may have been an indication to him

1130
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:10,240
Speaker 1: that things could very easily turn again. Yeah, totally. I

1131
00:59:10,240 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: guess for me, I just have that continuing doubt of like,

1132
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: why would you not why why would it be then?

1133
00:59:16,120 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 1: Why would you not leave before then? But you know,

1134
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe he thought he was prime minister

1135
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 1: for six years things had gone away, he would kind

1136
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 1: of be able to take a graceful exit of just

1137
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: he would take a step down and then continue to

1138
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: take steps down into retirement, and then suddenly he found

1139
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:37,480
Speaker 1: himself as Prime minister. Okay, I guess I'm doing this

1140
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: again for a little bit. But the but but again,

1141
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,120
Speaker 1: you know, I just I just don't totally understand why

1142
00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 1: you wouldn't just say you were stepping down for personal reasons. Yeah,

1143
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: I mean he should probably maybe should given a reason,

1144
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 1: but maybe even maybe it was a little unheard of

1145
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,080
Speaker 1: at that time to have to give a reason. It's

1146
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: only because of all the other stuff that we consider.

1147
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 1: It's so very strange. That's that's a good point. Um. Well,

1148
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: I think typically even then you probably were expected to

1149
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:05,840
Speaker 1: give a hint of a reason. But you know, it

1150
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: might have been that he just decided to pull in

1151
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: Andy Kaufman and little mystery for us. All. That's that's

1152
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 1: what I plan to do. I'm gonna I'm gonna hold

1153
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 1: Wilson's last joke pretty much. So that's it. I hope

1154
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: you found this episode illuminating and edifying. Uh, as did

1155
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,160
Speaker 1: all of us. I'm sure, uh you know, and I won't.

1156
01:00:26,200 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 1: I promise I'm not gonna do any cold War Sylvie

1157
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 1: Desponatge episodes for a while. Appreciate it. I do have

1158
01:00:32,720 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 1: one of the cooker for you. But that's okay, I can.

1159
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: I can hold off on it for a while. Uh so, uh,

1160
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 1: you guys have any other theories before I do all

1161
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 1: the housework? All right? Uh? Well, good news. We now

1162
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: have a website. Our website is called Thinking Sideways podcast

1163
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: dot com and where you can of course, like you know,

1164
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 1: find our stuff, download it or list. Can you download

1165
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 1: from there or just yeah I thought you could? Okay

1166
01:00:56,440 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: download and yeah, you can also download the list at

1167
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: iTunes of course if you go to iTunes subscribe please

1168
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:05,560
Speaker 1: and give us a rating and a review. Uh, and

1169
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 1: you can stream us from all over the place saying,

1170
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: and also of course Google Play. And we're on the

1171
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 1: sink called social media here. That's he that's big. It's

1172
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:18,680
Speaker 1: pretty big, really yeah, this thing we are on the

1173
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: Facebook we have where we have a group and a page,

1174
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: so joined the group they have the bigger, the better.

1175
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 1: And we're also all of course on the Twitter where

1176
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: we are Thinking Sideways without the g the huge. We've

1177
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:39,919
Speaker 1: got like three followers or something. Yeah. What else. We're

1178
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 1: on the reddit where we have a sepreuddit Yeah on Reddit, yeah,

1179
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: uh so our sepreddit course is called Thinking Sideways. And

1180
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: last of all, we've got an email address, and you've

1181
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 1: heard of email. I hope it's a it's kind of

1182
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 1: a new thing. Uh, it's our email addresses the little

1183
01:01:56,560 --> 01:02:00,800
Speaker 1: slashes into a clay tablet. Yeah, yeah, I do the

1184
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: tiny little message today clip to the pigeon. But our

1185
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: email is thinking because yeah, well come on, pigeon whip

1186
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 1: crack whip crap? What is that Thinking Sideways podcast at

1187
01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. And of course, if we want to

1188
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:20,920
Speaker 1: support the show, there's lots of ways to do it.

1189
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 1: You can just stuff them a blow pull of cash

1190
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,920
Speaker 1: and send it to my address. That's well, okay, no, okay.

1191
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: You can buy a merchandise. There's shirt, smugs, stickers and

1192
01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:33,760
Speaker 1: if you go to Zazzle and Red Bubble stores. Uh,

1193
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: we have those linked on a website on the right

1194
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 1: hand side. You'll see him right there. Man. Of course,

1195
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: we are on PayPal if if you like tossing some

1196
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:44,280
Speaker 1: money our way, that'd be awesome. Uh. And lastly, we

1197
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,800
Speaker 1: are on Patreon, which is sort of an ongoing, continuing,

1198
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 1: sustaining kind of thing. Uh. Patreon p A t R

1199
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 1: E O n uh So if you get a Patreon

1200
01:02:55,040 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 1: dot COM's last Thinking Sideways, you can pledge a certain amount,

1201
01:02:58,840 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: and of course every time we up an episode, then

1202
01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,440
Speaker 1: you're pledged amount like it goes over in our account.

1203
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 1: So you probably don't want to be pledging like fifty

1204
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 1: bucks or a hundred bucks, or maybe you do if

1205
01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: you're sticking rich feel free. Uh yeah, but just be

1206
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:16,000
Speaker 1: aware that's gonna be every week. So yeah, no a

1207
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 1: hundred dollar donations and risk unless you can really afford it,

1208
01:03:19,200 --> 01:03:22,680
Speaker 1: and of course it's all optional, but we do appreciate it.

1209
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 1: That's it for this week, I suppose. So, Dospedonia, you

1210
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 1: did that one last time. Good point. You can't do

1211
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 1: that to two in a row. Okay, Lay, that doesn't

1212
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 1: even make any sense, doesn't that does any of this? Uh?

1213
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:41,760
Speaker 1: Good point. Cheers guys,