1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:03,280 Speaker 1: In January of twenty twenty two, we brought you the 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: story of Stephanie Spurgeon. It's a shaken Baby syndrome story, 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: and she was joined by her attorneys, Seth Miller of 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,040 Speaker 1: the Innison's Project of Florida as well as Alison Miller 5 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: no relation, who recently ran for Florida's state attorney. But 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: before we share her story again, we first wanted to 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: share a recording of when we caught up with Stephanie 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: at the twenty twenty three Innocence Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona. 9 00:00:26,120 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: For those who are not familiar with this event, it's 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: an annual gathering of the innocence community from all over 11 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: the country ex houonnaies, attorneys, advocates, and folks like us 12 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:39,559 Speaker 1: from Lava for Good Podcasts. So Stephanie sat down with 13 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: us for a chat and I'm going to let her 14 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: fill you in on what she's been up to here 15 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: at the Innocence Network Conference with one of my favorite humans, 16 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: Stephanie Spurgeon. And I'm sure everybody's wondering that what are 17 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:56,440 Speaker 1: you up to now? Besides smiling and walking around making 18 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: everybody happier. 19 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: I'm absolutely enjoying freedom We've spent a lot of time 20 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 2: trying to just reconnect with everybody. It's been a lot 21 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 2: of years that were lost, so it's been really good 22 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: to kind of really make up family time. Also, I 23 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 2: advocated for Alison Miller, who was running for state attorney. 24 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 2: I've done some public speaking, which I absolutely love to do. 25 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,280 Speaker 2: Recently I did Miami Andison's clinic in Boston College down 26 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,200 Speaker 2: in Jupiter, Florida, and my daughter and I started our 27 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: own little podcast. 28 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: Huh. 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 2: It's called freedom Fighters, So you know it's we film 30 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 2: right there at our car. 31 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: I have a funny feeling we might be linking that 32 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:37,840 Speaker 1: at our bio. So freedom fighter is a great name 33 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: for a podcast and I'm looking forward to hearing it myself. 34 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: It's gonna give me something good to listen to on 35 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,000 Speaker 1: the plane. Very good. 36 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 3: It's very uncensored. 37 00:01:45,840 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: And do you I mean, I know you're a freedom 38 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: fighter and I know you get joy from helping other people, 39 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: both what do you do for yourself? 40 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: You know? Actually my main focus is I'm advocating for 41 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: Michael Giovo, who's wrongfully convicted in Florida as much like mine. 42 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: He was convicted in Florida and Penellas County. Doctor Sally 43 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 2: Smith was his expert, and he was convicted two months 44 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:08,840 Speaker 2: after mine, and he has a life sentence. 45 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: That's the same quote unquote expert that helped to wrongfully 46 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: convict you. 47 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 2: That is correct. I was lucky enough. I work for 48 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 2: Keith Law Firm now, so I am working in the 49 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: legal industry. We primarily do civil law. But it gives 50 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,679 Speaker 2: me a little bit more knowledge, more power to try 51 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: to be able to fight for him. So I'm hoping 52 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: maybe to develop some bills that won't maybe allow him 53 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: to get a second chance to her to have his 54 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:33,480 Speaker 2: case hurt again. 55 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: Well, it's fantastic, and listen, you are a beacon of 56 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: light and you inspire me and all the rest of 57 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: us to work harder as s Marter. So just keep 58 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: on being you, you. 59 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 2: Know, thank you. It's a pleasure being here. Thank you. 60 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: As we wrapped up the interview, a kind of only 61 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: at the Innocence Network conference, moment happened. A woman named 62 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: Michelle Lopez approached us when she had heard Stephanie's story 63 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: back in jail twenty twenty two on this podcast. She 64 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: reached out to Stephanie over social media. Michelle's son, Trey Clay, 65 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: is currently enduring a similar nightmare in California, and Stephanie's 66 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 1: story brought some comfort to this grieving mother. And although 67 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: they had been in contact before, the conference was their 68 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: first chance to meet in person and kind of a 69 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: serendipitous encounter for all of us. We'll have the Justice 70 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: for Trey Clay Instagram account LinkedIn the bio, along with 71 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: some info about Michael Giovo's case and Stephanie's podcast Freedom Fighters, 72 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: and now, without any further ado, the incredible story of 73 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: Stephanie Spurgeon. Stephanie Spurgeon was a married mother of two 74 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 1: and a licensed childcare provider who had been running a 75 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: daycare facility from her home in Florida for fifteen years. 76 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 1: On August twenty first, two thousand and eight, one year 77 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: old Maria Harris spent her first day at Stephanie's daycare. 78 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: Maria's grandmother had picked up a sleeping Maria that day, 79 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 1: but soon after had noticed that Maria was unresponsive and 80 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 1: in distress. Ignoring other potential root causes and relying on 81 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: the junk science of shaken baby syndrome, doctors opined that 82 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:16,039 Speaker 1: brain bleed and swelling were signs of child abuse, placing 83 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: blame on the brand new childcare provider, Stephanie Spurgeon, and 84 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: when Maria died seven days later, the charges were upgraded 85 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: to murder, but with the lack of external injuries, the 86 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,880 Speaker 1: state changed its shaken baby theory, concocting a new narrative 87 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: in which Maria had been repeatedly struck against the soft surface. 88 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: The defense failed to pivot to this new theory, instead 89 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: presenting a shaken baby syndrome defense, and with the states 90 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: uncontested yet totally dubious soft impact theory, the jury found 91 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: Stephanie guilty of the lesser charge of manslaughter and sentenced 92 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: her to fifteen years in prison. With the help of 93 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,960 Speaker 1: multiple innocence projects and a current candidate for state's attorney, 94 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: Stephanie was able to present the proper expert testimon This 95 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: proved the state's ludicrous soft impact theory, win a new trial, 96 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: and ultimately be set free after nine long years. This 97 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: is wrathful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction. Today's episode 98 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: is well, I'm going to be honest with you, it's 99 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 1: terrifying because this is a story that is both unique 100 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: and also somehow not uncommon, and it involves an innocent 101 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: woman working at a daycare center who got caught up 102 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: in the criminal legal system for no reason of her 103 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 1: own making. I'm going to introduce our incredible guest today 104 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: because we have three, including the woman who lived through 105 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: this nightmare herself, Stephanie Spurgeon. First, I'm going to introduce 106 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: are very distinguished group. Seth Miller is here. He's the 107 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 1: executive director of the Innocence Project of Florida. It does 108 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,919 Speaker 1: incredible work day in and day out, pushing huge boulders 109 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: uphills of justice. So Seth, thanks for being here. 110 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 4: Thanks Jason thrilled to be here. 111 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: And with him and with us. Is Alison Miller no relation. 112 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: She is an attorney with Ripley Wisenhunt and is also 113 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:29,039 Speaker 1: currently running for the State's Attorney Office of Florida, and 114 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: I hope people will support her because we need people 115 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: like you in positions like that. But for the time being, 116 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:37,240 Speaker 1: we're happy to have you right where you are and 117 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 1: right here on the mic. So Alison Miller, welcome to 118 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,240 Speaker 1: Ronfel Conviction. Thank you so much for having me and Stephanie. 119 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 1: What can I say? I feel like the whole human 120 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: race shows you a debt of gratitude for sharing your 121 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,719 Speaker 1: story and for just being the strong, courageous woman that 122 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: you are. And I appreciate you being here. So Stephanie, 123 00:06:56,480 --> 00:06:58,240 Speaker 1: to you. Also, welcome to Ronfel Conviction. 124 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason. It's my pleasure sure. 125 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: And so Stephanie, this is the story that we've heard 126 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: time and time again where somebody like yourself is doing 127 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: you know, let's call it what it is, essential work. 128 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: Where would we be as a society without daycare centers? 129 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: The working world would grind to a halt. And yet 130 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: people like you too often end up in situations like 131 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: the one we're talking about today. I mean, it really 132 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: makes my heart hurt. But let's please take us back 133 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: before this incident happened in two thousand and eight. Can 134 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: you tell us what your life was like back then. 135 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: I was married for nineteen years and I had two 136 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 2: beautiful children. We had a beautiful life. We were a 137 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: well knit family. We did a lot of family vacations. 138 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 2: I was a licensing home daycare provider for fifteen years. 139 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 2: The parents that would come into my home, they became 140 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 2: part of my family, Their kids became part of my family. 141 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 2: We would celebrate holidays together and different things. It was 142 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: very fulfilling. I was able to work with children, I 143 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 2: was able to be at home with my own children. 144 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 2: I decided at one point to go into special needs children. 145 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: So I took lots of children that came in who 146 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: had speech issues or different disabilities, and I grew a 147 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: real hart for these kids because not a lot of 148 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 2: places would accept any special needs children. And then I 149 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: decided to branch off a little bit further and start 150 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 2: taking teenage parent children. So Esther Harris was actually the 151 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 2: very first teen mom that I took. She was seventeen 152 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: years old when I was introduced to her and Maria. 153 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 1: And so, not only are you taking care of other 154 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 1: people's kids, you're doing it in your own home, opening 155 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: your doors and your heart, and taking care of kids 156 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,319 Speaker 1: who have issues with other people. Well might not want 157 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 1: to open their home too, or their hearts, right, I mean, 158 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: so this case, I'd like to say it happened a 159 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: long time ago, but it really didn't, right. I Mean, 160 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: it would feel a little bit better if it was 161 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,080 Speaker 1: back before we had science evolved to a place that 162 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: it was at in two thousand and eight, which is 163 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: when this tragedy occurred, of course, and I said tragedy, 164 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 1: not crime. That's deliberate, because that's what it was. And 165 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: so Seth, do you want to set the stage for 166 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: us of what happened on that awful day and how 167 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:18,880 Speaker 1: this became a criminal matter. 168 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 4: When I think about these cases when a child dies, 169 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 4: a lot of times the folks involved in trying to 170 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:28,199 Speaker 4: figure out how that happened kind of go nutty. They 171 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 4: aren't able to take sober views of what might have 172 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 4: happened to that child. And that's what happened here in 173 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 4: this case. Stephie Spurgeon was running an in home daycare 174 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 4: at her home. It was better business Bureau rated, had 175 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 4: generations worth of children who come through the daycare who 176 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 4: really positive experiences, their families had positive experiences. And the child, 177 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 4: Maria Harris, was our first day at the daycare. And 178 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 4: yet on this day, this poor child was suffering from 179 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 4: what was clearly a distress, a medical situation. 180 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: When Maria's grandmother, Patricia came and picked her up that day, 181 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 2: Maria had been sleeping. So I reached into the pack 182 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 2: and play and I picked her up, and she kind 183 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: of stirred in my arms, and I passed her to Patricia, 184 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: and she stirred in Patricia's arms, and then Patricia took 185 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 2: her and placed her in the car and drove her home. 186 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: Thirty minutes later is when we got the phone call Maria. 187 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 2: I guess was deteriorating as she was sleeping, and I 188 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: was unaware that there was any issue because I simply 189 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: thought she was asleep. 190 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 4: At the end of the day, the child was growing up. 191 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 4: The child was crying and was clearly kind of lifeless 192 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 4: in a lot of ways, and called nine one one. 193 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 4: It took the child to the hospital and when they 194 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 4: were on the way to the hospital, they tested the 195 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 4: child's blood sugar and the child had a high four 196 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 4: hundreds of blood sugar. And I don't know if any 197 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 4: of y'all have diabetes or test your blood sugar regularly, 198 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 4: but that is four to five times the normal level. 199 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 4: So this child is in major distress. What they do 200 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 4: when they get the child to the hospital is they 201 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 4: realized after doing a number of tests on the child 202 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 4: that the child's suffering from a brain lead a subdural 203 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 4: hematoma and the child has brain swelling and that has 204 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 4: led to the child having retinal hemorrhages and instead of 205 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 4: treating the child for what looked like a diabetic situation, 206 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 4: a diabetic distress because the child had the subdual heemo tone, 207 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 4: because the child had this brain swelling and the retinal hemorrhages. 208 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 4: The doctors immediately assumed that this was an abusive situation 209 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 4: because they thought that this was the three ingredients, the 210 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 4: triad as they call it, cause by taking baby syndrome 211 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,439 Speaker 4: or what is more commonly known now is abusive head trauma. 212 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 4: So that had a chance to try to treat this 213 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 4: child to maybe ameliorate or even prevent a bigger problem 214 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 4: or death, to treat this metabolic, this diabetic situation, but 215 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 4: instead they assumed it was abuse, and we were often 216 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 4: running taking a medical situation and elevating it to the crime, 217 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 4: and unfortunately, this child died seven days later. 218 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 1: The idea that this might have been prevented if they 219 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: just simply focused on the problem at hand, rather than 220 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: turning this into wild accusations of child abuse makes my 221 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: blood boil. I mean, and I think it's worth mentioning. 222 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: As we've covered extensively on our show Junk Science and 223 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: other episodes of Wrongful Conviction as well, just a general 224 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: overview of the theory of shaking baby syndrome or SBS now. 225 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: It was initially introduced as a hypothesis by British pediatric 226 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: neurosurgeon doctor Norman guth Kelch, who was trying to explain 227 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: a cause for inexplicable child deaths in which a child 228 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 1: or baby, toddler whatever had presented subdural hematoma otherwise known 229 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: as bleeding in the brain, retinal hemorrhage, so you know, 230 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: bleeding in the eyes and brain swelling or cerebral edemon Now. 231 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: Doctor Cuthkelch hypothesized that perhaps a typical method of scolding 232 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: a child in Great Britain at the time, giving the 233 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: child a good shake, maybe that was the cause for 234 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: unintended or unexplained child deaths in which this triad of 235 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: medical findings occurred. He never was able to prove this, 236 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: He just hypothesized it and caution parents against the practice. Understandably, however, 237 00:13:03,679 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: since that hypothesis, the criminal legal system just sort of 238 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: ran them up with this idea, right leaping to the 239 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: conclusion that any child presenting those symptoms, especially if there 240 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: was any other bruisings, had been fatally abused like sort 241 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: of one size fits all which is ridiculous, and that 242 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: the person less responsible for the child therefore must have 243 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: been the culprit. 244 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 3: And I think we as people understanding the inner workings 245 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 3: of the human mind, when bad things happen, we want 246 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 3: to be able to say there's someone or something responsible 247 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: for that bad thing happening. And so where there was 248 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 3: a legitimate science maybe at the inception, this idea has 249 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 3: been horribly bastardized to get convictions involving usually the death 250 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: of infants or toddlers, and Stephanie's case is a perfect 251 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 3: example of that, where there is legitimate scientific evidence that 252 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 3: this child was in medical distress that went ignored by 253 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 3: medical professionals because it is easier to say, oh, this 254 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 3: child must have been harmed. 255 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's worth noting that in recent years, as 256 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: doctors in larger and larger numbers, I've been challenging the 257 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: notion of shaking baby syndrome. They've identified, get this, over 258 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: eighty different preexisting conditions that can cause what they call 259 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: the triad of findings that were historically just attributed to 260 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: shaking baby syndrome almost automatically. Right, So the science is there, 261 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: but I mean, I wish I could say when the 262 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: criminal legal system is going to catch up, it's entirely 263 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: possible that it never will because science, let's face, it 264 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: looks forward, while the legal system only looks backward at precedent, 265 00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: sort of the opposite. And so Stephanie, if you could 266 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,960 Speaker 1: take us back to when you were arrested, what all 267 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: happened before the trial. 268 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: My first arrest was August twenty first, I was twenty second, 269 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: maybe two thousand and eight. I was arrested on aggravated 270 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: child abuse. I went to Neells County Jail. I was 271 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 2: housed in a solitaire cell because of course my face 272 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: was on the news, and I was able to bond 273 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: out the next day. I think it's important to say 274 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: my bond was fifty thousand dollars, and my parents got 275 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: an attorney for me, which was fifty thousand dollars, So 276 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: right away we're in the hole. I came home and 277 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,360 Speaker 2: was unable to have a daycare. Of course, so I 278 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 2: had no income, so that became an issue immediately. Maria 279 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 2: passed away seven days later. I was rearrested six weeks later, 280 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: on November eighth, two thousand and eight, on capitol felony 281 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 2: murder I had just taken my son to his bus 282 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: stop in the morning, and when I came back home, 283 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,240 Speaker 2: I put up in a driveway like three squad cars 284 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: surrounded me, and everybody come racing out, screaming and yelling, 285 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: and put me in cuffs and put me in the 286 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: back of the cruiser and took me back to County Jail. 287 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: When they brought me in from booking that day, they 288 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: brought me straight to Solitaire cell in the lobby area, 289 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 2: and I could look out and see my face on 290 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 2: the news. And as I'm looking at my face on 291 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 2: the news, I'm looking at the other inmates that are 292 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: in there getting processed in, and they're all looking back 293 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 2: at me and that Solitaire cell. So it was a 294 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: very scary situation. There was a grand jury hearing, and 295 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: the attorney that I had that was fifty thousand dollars. 296 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 2: He wouldn't try a capital case, so we had to 297 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 2: hire another firm and they cost us one hundred thousand. 298 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: I ended up. 299 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: Getting indicted and then we moved for a bond hearing. 300 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 2: My bond hearing was successful, except it was three hundred 301 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,960 Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars with an angle monitor and no 302 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 2: contact with any child in the age of twelve. I 303 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: thought there was no way that my family was ever 304 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: going to be able to come up with those kind 305 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 2: of funds because we had already spent so much. They 306 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: did come up with it. They fundraised, They drained all 307 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 2: of your savings, accounts, everything, and one night, on January 308 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 2: twenty sixth, two thousand and nine, after I think eighty 309 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: nine days in a solitaire cell, I was released at 310 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 2: two am, so I was able to come home and 311 00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: wake both of my kids up. My daughter and I 312 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 2: ended up sitting on the front porch in a rocking 313 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: chair and watch the sunrise together. It was very hard 314 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 2: to sleep because I kept thinking I was going to 315 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: wake up and be back in there. The nightmare would 316 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 2: be there again. 317 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,840 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 318 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: and by Accenture, a global professional services company with leading 319 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the 320 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG 321 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: pro Bono program, which it's free legal services and other 322 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,120 Speaker 1: support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need 323 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: as part of Extensure's commitment to racial and civil justice. 324 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,879 Speaker 1: Accenture's legal Access program provides pro bono legal services in 325 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: partnership with more than forty organizations bringing meaningful change to 326 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:26,440 Speaker 1: people and communities worldwide. 327 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:31,880 Speaker 4: There were signals even before the trial that the state 328 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 4: was going to move away from a shaken baby syndrome diagnosis. 329 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 4: The real issue in this case is that we had 330 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 4: these presentations in the brain and the skull, and the 331 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,680 Speaker 4: doctors were used to saying, oh, this could only be abused, 332 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 4: it's shaking baby syndrome. The problem is these things are 333 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 4: normally associated with signs of abuse, external injuries, and this 334 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 4: child did not have a scratch or a bruis, or 335 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 4: not even a single mark on her. And so the 336 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 4: doctors are trying to figure out, well, how can we 337 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 4: make this abuse and explain away the fact that there's 338 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 4: no visual injuries. 339 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: On this child. 340 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 4: And this is how what they call the child abuse 341 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 4: pediatrician I'm using air quotes. She came up with the 342 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 4: theory that, well, the reason there's no injuries that are 343 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,199 Speaker 4: apparent on the outside is because the child was slammed 344 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 4: repeatedly on a soft surface like a crib mattress. 345 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: So this case is nutty, right, because you don't see 346 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: it very often that the state changes their theory sort 347 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: of midstream, right, So then they came up with this 348 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: soft impact theory. But the crazy thing is it seemed 349 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: like her attorneys were defending a different theory than the 350 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: one that the state was trying to convict her on. 351 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: Am I mistaken about that? That's exactly right. 352 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 4: The defense attorney was very focused on shaking inmy syndrome. 353 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 4: And when I deposed this attorney in post conviction, I 354 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 4: asked him about cases that he had done previously, and 355 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 4: what I found out was that he had done a 356 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 4: series of shaking baby syndrome cases where he got favorable 357 00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 4: results from his clients. So he had his pat experts 358 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 4: in a formula for how he would approach these cases. 359 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,359 Speaker 4: But he simply failed to learn his own case well 360 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 4: enough to know that he could not simply employ the 361 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 4: same formula that he employed in other cases where shaken 362 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 4: baby syndrome was a theory. Because not all cases are 363 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 4: the same, they're not creating equal In this case, the 364 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 4: state had already abandoned the shaking baby syndrome theory for 365 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 4: this seft impact theory, and so we're pressing long in 366 00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 4: a case they get the biomechanical expert. They do the 367 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 4: thing that a lot of people don't do. They get 368 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 4: the right expert, they prepare that expert, but they prepare 369 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 4: them for the wrong theory. And there was this striking 370 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 4: moment in the trial where after the defense attorney sits down, 371 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,880 Speaker 4: he thinks he's done a great job with the biomechanical expert. 372 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 4: And the first question the state asked the expert when 373 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 4: they get up is who told you that this was 374 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 4: a shaken baby syndrome case. It was a devastating moment 375 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 4: in the trial. And of course he could have put 376 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 4: his expert back up, got them to prepare all the calculations, 377 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 4: and he failed to do that because he just didn't 378 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 4: even understand his own case. 379 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 3: The State of Florida in their prosecution, if Stephanie relied 380 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 3: on one particular pediatrician that they frequently rely on. It's 381 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 3: so hard because these doctors and experts come in to 382 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 3: court couched with credibility and reliability, and especially in areas 383 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 3: like Vanillas and Pasco County where we've used the same 384 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 3: experts forever, it's hard helping whomever the FactFinder is, jurors 385 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,640 Speaker 3: or judges to understand this is a misapplication of science. 386 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 3: And so you get doctors that come in and they 387 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:40,719 Speaker 3: use words that we as average folks don't understand, and 388 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 3: it sounds like, well, it must be true. And then 389 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: at the end it's with the conclusion that this child 390 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 3: died as a result of intentionally inflicted abuse of trauma. 391 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the deck is truly stacked against even someone 392 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: like Stephanie. Right, she gets swept under this title wive 393 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,719 Speaker 1: of nonsense that comes from preconceived biases and notions and things. Right, 394 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 1: because someone sees her in the defendan's chair, they automatically 395 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: assume somebody who was there must have done something to 396 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 1: be there. Right, there's that you have to overcome. Then, 397 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,720 Speaker 1: as you said, there's all the medical stuff. A guy 398 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: gets up there and reads his credentials sounds very impressive, 399 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: and then spouting these theories that most jurors are not 400 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: equipped to understand or unpacked. So they think they're doing 401 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,120 Speaker 1: the right thing. And I've have empathy for them too 402 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 1: for making these mistakes. And Stephanie, you've lived through this, 403 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,119 Speaker 1: So I want to get back to you. What was 404 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: this like from your perspective as a mom nineteen years married? 405 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: You know, upstanding citizen to say the least. 406 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 2: Well, Jason, I was absolutely devastating, to say the least. 407 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: I kept waiting for truth to prevail. I knew that 408 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: I didn't hurt Maria, so I knew that something would 409 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 2: eventually come to surface that would show what had happened. 410 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: It was terrifying, terrifying for me, It was terrifying for 411 00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 2: my children, It was terrifying for my then husband. It 412 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 2: was awful, and in the end, it destroyed our whole family. 413 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 2: I got a divorce, went to prison, and my kids 414 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 2: grew up without their mom. 415 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 1: How old were the kids when this happened. 416 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 2: My son was twelve and my daughter was seventeen. 417 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: So, Stephanie, when the jury went out, can you tell 418 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 1: us what you were thinking at that time? Did you 419 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,679 Speaker 1: think that finally this wrong would be righted and this 420 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 1: nightmare would come to an end. 421 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 2: I just kept thinking that eventually they would realize that 422 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: there's no way that I did this, That nobody heard Maria. 423 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 2: There had to have been something else. They jury deliberated 424 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 2: for twenty one and a half hours before they came 425 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 2: back with an acquittal of capital filmy murder, but a 426 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: guilty charge in manslaughter I heard a horrible noise from 427 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 2: behind me, and it was my son crying out. It 428 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 2: just felt like I was in a fog. I remember 429 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 2: mouthing I love you to my family before they alled 430 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 2: me out of a curtroom and put me back in 431 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 2: that solitarire cell. I got to prison, I was absolutely 432 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 2: terrified and had to learn very quickly how to adapt 433 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: In a maximum security prison. You have to always pay 434 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,440 Speaker 2: attention to what's going around you, and you had to 435 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,719 Speaker 2: kind of learn how to bob and weave between people. 436 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: You didn't want to draw any attention to yourself. It's 437 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 2: a very scary place. And not only is it scary 438 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,440 Speaker 2: from the other inmates, but not all the officers are 439 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 2: on the up and up. The officers are also very scary. 440 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:58,160 Speaker 2: So I got to prison, and naturally I was quite angry, 441 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 2: and I knew that if I I didn't do something 442 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: with my anger, I was just going to go down 443 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 2: a dark path. So I threw myself into learning about 444 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: my own case, and I got certified and became a 445 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 2: law clerk, which of course is how I met Amanda Brumfield. 446 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 2: We were co workers in the law library. We both 447 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 2: left the maximum security prison and we found ourselves at 448 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 2: a faith and character based war camp and that was 449 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 2: a much safer environment, albeit it did not have AC 450 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 2: so it was extremely excruciatingly hot. But I traded the 451 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,040 Speaker 2: heat for the safety and I worked with Amanda in 452 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 2: the law library and we did everything we could for 453 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: other people in there, meanwhile, both learning each other's case 454 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: as well as our own case. And that's how I survived. 455 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know where. I don't know where they 456 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: make people like you that find this sort of otherworldly strength, spirit, courage, 457 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. But I'm just glad 458 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: you did. And I'm glad that Amanda Broomfield did as well. 459 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: I mean, she just recently joined us here on Rampel Convictions, 460 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:09,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm so freaking glad that you both found 461 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: the strength to pull through and be here. 462 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 2: Well. I had a good support system, Jason. I had 463 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: wonderful parents and my brother and my children, and they 464 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 2: made sure I had all of my needs because you know, 465 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 2: in prison they don't give you shampoo and deodor and 466 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 2: things like that. You have to buy these things. Thankfully, 467 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: I had an amazing support system that are still my 468 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 2: support system. And you know, it was very touching because 469 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 2: not only did I have a support system for my family, 470 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 2: but my clients and the childcare. All of my daycare 471 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 2: babies that I raised grew up and sent me checks 472 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 2: while I was in prison to help pay for whatever 473 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,639 Speaker 2: I needed in there. So these daycare babies that I 474 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 2: raised were taken care of being while I was in prison. 475 00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,720 Speaker 1: Well that's full circle, isn't it. I mean, it's a 476 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,000 Speaker 1: little bit of light in a miserable dark place and 477 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: speaks to your character as well. So Seth Allison, how 478 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: did this then eventually make its way to your desks? 479 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:15,119 Speaker 1: And how did the process finally right itself? 480 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 4: You know what's unique I think about this case is 481 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 4: that it got to us so much earlier than a 482 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 4: lot of other cases. I've gotten guys out of prison 483 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,800 Speaker 4: who have spent thirty or thirty five or over forty 484 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 4: years in prison, and once you find out about that 485 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 4: twenty or thirty years down the line, it's. 486 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: Very hard to rectify that. 487 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 4: It's a reclamation project that sometimes is beset with procedural 488 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,959 Speaker 4: problems that doesn't really allow you to turn it around. 489 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 4: But here we were able to get in on the 490 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:45,200 Speaker 4: initial post conviction motion, where you have all of the 491 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 4: potential claims available to you have no procedural problems. And 492 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 4: so we only did that because Stephanie wrote to us 493 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 4: almost immediately after her initial appeal was denied. And what 494 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 4: was interesting is that she had written to us. I 495 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 4: was litigating another case with Kate Json and we come 496 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 4: to find out that this other person's case, Amanda Brownfield, 497 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 4: and Stephanie were friends in prison, and that's kind of 498 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 4: how Stephanie got hooked up with us. I remember being 499 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 4: in the car driving home from a different prison visit 500 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 4: talking to Kate about Stephanie's application and saying, hey, you 501 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,400 Speaker 4: want to do another one, and that was kind of like, yeah, 502 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 4: let's get it. This case has some crazy issues in it. 503 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 4: So what became clear to us is what we've already 504 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 4: talked about. The lawyer didn't use the biomechanical engineer that 505 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,400 Speaker 4: he had at his disposal to rebut the state's soft 506 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 4: impact theory how this supposed abuse happened. What happens is 507 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 4: that juries are looking for an answer, and the prosecution 508 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 4: gave them an answer. It's incumbent upon the defense to 509 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 4: rebut that if you don't, your client's going to be convicted. 510 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 4: And So what happened here is that not only did 511 00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 4: they not give them an answer, they put up another 512 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,880 Speaker 4: expert who agreed that this was from violent trauma. So 513 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 4: the defense expert agreed is from violent trauma. And they 514 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 4: never went into any of them doing medical issues that 515 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 4: were very clear that existed. 516 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: So that was kind of where we focused. 517 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 4: Can we get the biomic anaut engineered to look at 518 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 4: the studies, do the calculations to prove that slamming on 519 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 4: a soft surface can't cause these injuries? And can we 520 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 4: talk to pediatric endochronologists, pediatric genesis, forensic pathologists or clinical 521 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 4: pathologists a neuroadiologists to look at all of this material 522 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 4: in the case and help us understand whether this could 523 00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:20,640 Speaker 4: even be trauma and if it wasn't trauma, could it 524 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 4: come from another underlying medical issue, particularly issue of related diabetes. 525 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 4: And when we were able to do that, what we 526 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 4: found out is that we had an expert, a biomechanical expert, 527 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 4: who was able to say with supreme confidence that this 528 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 4: slamming on a soft service could not have scientifically caused 529 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 4: this child's injuries because he did the preeminent study of 530 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 4: just this type of scenario and it proven that a 531 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 4: human of Stephanie's size can't create enough force to cause 532 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 4: those injuries in that child's brain without also causing massive 533 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 4: external injuries. Of course there were not, and so scientifically 534 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 4: they couldn't do that. Our experts together showed that this 535 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 4: was a situation where the child had a blood clot 536 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 4: in their brain. The blood clot in their brain caused 537 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 4: spillover bleeding into the brain because blood couldn't get out 538 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 4: of the brain back to the other parts of the body, 539 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 4: and that caused swelling in the brain, which caused the 540 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 4: retinal hemorrhages which caused this child's disease. And all of 541 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 4: this was caused by a thicking of the blood due 542 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 4: to a diabetic situation. And so we have this evidence now. 543 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 4: But the key was to show that the trial council 544 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 4: violated Stephanie's constitutional right to counsel and effective assistance of 545 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 4: that council by not bringing about all of this information, 546 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,960 Speaker 4: all of which would prove that there was no crime 547 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 4: here and that this child died from a tragic a 548 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 4: medical situation that was just undiagnosed. 549 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: So that's what we did. What was it like, Stephanie, 550 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: when all of a sudden, you've got sort of the 551 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: dream team, right, I mean the Florida Innocence Project. Those 552 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: of us who work in the Innis's movement know that 553 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: the Florida in Project is held in the highest regard. 554 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: So when you got the letter or a call or 555 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: whatever it was saying that they were going to represent you, 556 00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: what was that like? 557 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 2: It was a phone call from Seth at the Florida 558 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 2: Innocence Project and he patched through Kate Judson at that time, 559 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 2: she was with the Innocence Project of Wisconsin now with 560 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 2: the Center for Integrity and Forensic Science. And I also 561 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 2: had Josh Teffer, who is with the Exoneration Project out 562 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 2: of Chicago. So it was unbelievable to know that not 563 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: only did I manage to get one innocence project, but 564 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 2: I managed to get three projects all working. And I 565 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 2: guess I just kind of like threw up my hands 566 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: and was just like finally, finally, like I knew there 567 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 2: had to be something there, and finally somebody sounded. 568 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: Right, all of a sudden, you've got the literal dream 569 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: team on your side. And Allison, can you take us 570 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 1: through how you got involved in what eventually led to 571 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,800 Speaker 1: Stephanie's freedom. I love this. This This is my favorite 572 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:53,480 Speaker 1: part of the story. 573 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 3: So Seth, with Kate and Josh did that lengthy post 574 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 3: conviction hearing in front of Judge Burgess, which denied. They appealed, 575 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 3: and the Second District Court of Appeal overturned that denial 576 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 3: of the post conviction motion, finding Stephanie's original trial lawyers 577 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 3: to be ineffective. Seth and I have worked on a 578 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,320 Speaker 3: number of different cases or just sort of floated in 579 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 3: the same circles myself at the trial court level and 580 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 3: set more in the post conviction world. I could remember 581 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 3: when Stephanie's case was overturned, Seth and I having this 582 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 3: meeting of the minds where he was like, you know, 583 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 3: myself and Kate and Josh obviously still want to be involved, 584 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 3: but we need somebody who does trial work. And I 585 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 3: was like, well, I would love to be involved. And 586 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 3: so that's when I got appointed. Was like, okay, we're 587 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 3: back for a new trial. And instead of the State 588 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 3: of Florida saying we concede, the state indicated it intended 589 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 3: to retry Stephanie, and so we were like, bring it, 590 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 3: y'all are prosecuting an innocent woman, and we're going to 591 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 3: embarrass you was the mentality that we had. It was 592 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 3: all new prosecutors, all new defense attorneys, and we were 593 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 3: gearing up for a battle. Frankly, to make a very 594 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 3: long story short, the state would not agree to not 595 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 3: go forward, but to bring an end to this for everyone, 596 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 3: the Harris family, Spurgeon family. 597 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: The state was. 598 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 3: Willing to accept what we call an Alfred please where 599 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 3: a defendant pleads guilty but is still exerting his or 600 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 3: her innocence, saying, I'm pleading guilty but because I believe 601 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,719 Speaker 3: it's in my best interest to do so, not because 602 00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 3: I'm legally admitting to doing what I'm accused of. And 603 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:34,400 Speaker 3: I think we all felt like because of all the 604 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,800 Speaker 3: shortcomings in the criminal justice system as they exist, the 605 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 3: over reliance on this pediatrician who doesn't seem to understand science, 606 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 3: I couldn't tell Stephanie there was no chance that a 607 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 3: jury would convict her again. Stephanie wanted her life back, 608 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 3: she wanted her family back, she wanted to be able 609 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 3: to put her toes in the ocean, and so for 610 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 3: everyone's sake, she agreed to enter this Alfred plea and 611 00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 3: bring resolution to the case. 612 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: So look, no one could fall at you, Stephanie for 613 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: making the decision that you made. People make it all 614 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: the time. I can find a lot of faults in 615 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: the state for dangling that sword over your head again. 616 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,200 Speaker 1: So when did you come home, Stephanie? And can you 617 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: tell us what it was like walking out into the 618 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,680 Speaker 1: fresh air? Give us as much as you can. 619 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 2: Well, it was definitely hot. I had an entourage if 620 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 2: people out there along with Netflix. We're doing a series, 621 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,520 Speaker 2: so everybody was filming. I got in the car and 622 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 2: the first thing they did was hand me a cell phone. 623 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,719 Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do with it. I think 624 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 2: they were just so excited to finally give me some 625 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,919 Speaker 2: piece of technology. And I went to Wahwahs. My kids 626 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 2: had always told me about Wahwahs. And when I walked in, 627 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 2: it was just so overwhelming, all the lights and all 628 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: the things to look at. And I know that probably 629 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 2: sounds so silly, but when you've been trapped inside for 630 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 2: so long, and I must look like I was from 631 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,720 Speaker 2: outer space because my eyes are staring at the lights, 632 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 2: I'm sure my mouth was open. It was interesting. I 633 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 2: allowed Netflix to come home with me and film me 634 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: coming in and that was a really difficult thing to 635 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: allow them to film me at my most weakest, vulnerable 636 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 2: moment of happy tears. That I did allow it because 637 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 2: I wanted to help bring more knowledge when the series finally. 638 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: Does air, amen to that, and I think we all 639 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: who work in this field for those happy moments. So Stephanie, 640 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: you a top of all the other unspeakable treatment that 641 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: you had to endure, you also, as you mentioned, had 642 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: to spend a king's ransom, you know, to try to 643 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: defend yourself hundreds of thousands of dollars. You weren't a 644 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: rich person going into this. So we now have a 645 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: bigger support system. Right over one hundred thousand people who 646 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: are listening to your voice now. I'm sure many of 647 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: them would like to do something to help you if 648 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: they could. Is there some way for people to donate, 649 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 1: or is there anything else that you could think of 650 00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:58,319 Speaker 1: that they might be able to do. 651 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 2: I have a GoFundMe and I would appreciate anything that 652 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 2: anybody could do to help me get back on my feet. 653 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: I've been home a year now and really haven't been 654 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,399 Speaker 2: able to build up a whole lot, so I would 655 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 2: appreciate that. Thank you, Jason, Yes. 656 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: And we will link to that in a bio of 657 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: our episode. So please take a moment right now. If 658 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,879 Speaker 1: you're listening and you have something you can spare, please 659 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 1: go to the link in the bio and donate, and 660 00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,360 Speaker 1: we're going to join you in doing that and trying 661 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 1: to help make this next period of your life a 662 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: little bit less difficult. So now we turn to my 663 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,320 Speaker 1: favorite part of the show, and everyone who's a regular 664 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,120 Speaker 1: listener knows what to expect, and by that I mean 665 00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: closing arguments, and for anyone who's new to this, closing 666 00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: arguments works very simply. First, I once again think our 667 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: incredible guests today, Alison Miller, attorney and candidate for State's 668 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: Attorney in the State of Florida, Seth Miller, executive director 669 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: of the Florida Innocence Project and personal hero of mine, 670 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: and Stephanie Spurge in my new personal hero. And what 671 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: happens next is I turned my microphone off and leave 672 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: each of yours on so that you can share any 673 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: final thoughts that we haven't maybe covered yet, or anything 674 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: else you want to say. I'm just going to kick 675 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: back in my chair. Let's start with Seth and Allison 676 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: and then just hand the mic off to Stephanie and 677 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: she'll take us out. 678 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 4: So one of the things that I think about coming 679 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 4: out of these cases and working on others now is 680 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,879 Speaker 4: how these things keep happening. We talked about it here, 681 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 4: and I wonder what we can do to prevent them 682 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 4: from happening in the future, and how we can end 683 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 4: what is like a cottage industry of medical fabrication, and 684 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:44,319 Speaker 4: so that to me is the next step of this. 685 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 4: We should continue to get people out of prison who 686 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 4: are innocent, who put in prison for accidents or for 687 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 4: things that have medical causes that weren't even crimes at all. 688 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 4: This is the leading cause of wrongful conviction and women. 689 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,240 Speaker 4: We have to also think about how we can prevent 690 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 4: it in the first place, and to be a change 691 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 4: in the medical community. If medical doctors are still being 692 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 4: trained every day in medical school to make the same 693 00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 4: mistakes that the medical doctors in this case and other 694 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 4: cases have made, and to me, that's the next stage 695 00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 4: of how do we prevent this and really just eradicate 696 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 4: this fabrication from the criminal legal system. 697 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,000 Speaker 3: Jason, I want to echo what you said, is that 698 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,720 Speaker 3: Seth and Stephanie especially are personal heroes of mine as well, 699 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,920 Speaker 3: and Stephanie is part of the reason why I am 700 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,719 Speaker 3: running for state attorney. If people like us don't do 701 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:37,000 Speaker 3: this type of work, then nothing will ever change. People 702 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 3: have to be more involved in their local downbout elections, 703 00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,280 Speaker 3: whether it's called the district attorney or the state attorney. 704 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 3: We have to take ownership in what prosecution looks like 705 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 3: in our jurisdictions, or this sort of thing will continue 706 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 3: to perpetuate. And so, if elected state Attorney, I don't 707 00:38:55,320 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 3: intend to prosecute child abuse cases based exclusively on the 708 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,520 Speaker 3: testimony of doctor Sally Smith. I've already enlisted people like 709 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 3: Seth and Kate understanding we're going to have to continue 710 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 3: prosecuting child abuse. Of course, everyone wants child abuse prosecuted, 711 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 3: but we need to do it with reliable forensic evidence. 712 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 3: And we have seen repeatedly in this jurisdiction at the 713 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 3: very least, that this pediatric is a danger and everyone 714 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,680 Speaker 3: frankly seems willing to ignore it. 715 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: Stephanie closing arguments, well, I would. 716 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 2: Like to start by thanking Allison. I appreciate your confidence 717 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,880 Speaker 2: in me coming into this. I also, of course have 718 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,799 Speaker 2: to thank Seth the Florida Ennison's Project, Kate Judson from 719 00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 2: the Center of Integrity and Forensic Sciences, Josh Teffer from 720 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:44,880 Speaker 2: the Exoneration Project, all of their staff, the experts, and 721 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,400 Speaker 2: all the law students. Because it took an army to 722 00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 2: bring me home. And I'd also like to thank all 723 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 2: the people who donate and support organizations like this, because 724 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 2: if it wasn't for your support, people like me would 725 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 2: still be trapped behind those prison gates. I'd like to 726 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 2: urge law enforcement and medical staff to not assume abuse 727 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 2: when they see a triad of injuries, to not race 728 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:20,799 Speaker 2: in emotionally charged and be more diligent. I hope that 729 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:25,840 Speaker 2: my story brings awareness to shaking baby syndrome and abuse 730 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 2: and head trauma. I appreciate you allowing me to share 731 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:39,680 Speaker 2: my story for the first time today. Thank you Jason, Thank. 732 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,399 Speaker 1: You for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to thank 733 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn, and 734 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,520 Speaker 1: Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in 735 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer 736 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at 737 00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on 738 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 1: Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. 739 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: On all three platforms, you can also follow me on 740 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: both TikTok and Instagram at it's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction 741 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,200 Speaker 1: is the production of Lava for Good podcasts and association 742 00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:15,719 Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one