1 00:00:15,370 --> 00:00:23,490 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Wait, beware ahead of you, lie yawning crevasses, rampaging 2 00:00:23,650 --> 00:00:28,770 Speaker 1: killer whales, and Malcolm Gladwell bearing spoilers. You are about 3 00:00:28,770 --> 00:00:32,010 Speaker 1: to hear a conversation about our epic race to the 4 00:00:32,090 --> 00:00:35,570 Speaker 1: south Pole trilogy. So before you do, please have a 5 00:00:35,650 --> 00:00:38,770 Speaker 1: listen to the trilogy itself, which should have arrived in 6 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:42,210 Speaker 1: your Cautionary Tales podcast feed over the past few weeks. 7 00:00:42,530 --> 00:00:46,770 Speaker 1: I'll wait, don't worry right, as you will now know 8 00:00:47,170 --> 00:00:51,130 Speaker 1: the trilogy makes reference to Malcolm Gladwell's work. Malcolm is, 9 00:00:51,170 --> 00:00:54,690 Speaker 1: of course the author of David and Goliath, The Bomber Mafia, 10 00:00:54,930 --> 00:00:59,210 Speaker 1: and other best sellers, and the creator of the Revisionist 11 00:00:59,330 --> 00:01:02,450 Speaker 1: History podcast. I was so excited when he agreed to 12 00:01:02,450 --> 00:01:05,370 Speaker 1: come and talk about the south Pole Trilogy. Why Captain 13 00:01:05,490 --> 00:01:08,730 Speaker 1: Scott's access to money and patrons turned out to be 14 00:01:08,730 --> 00:01:11,930 Speaker 1: more cursed and a blessing what it cost rolled Amondson 15 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:14,850 Speaker 1: to rip up the conventional rules of behavior, and the 16 00:01:14,890 --> 00:01:18,570 Speaker 1: astonishing subplot in which absolutely everybody seemed to forget the 17 00:01:18,610 --> 00:01:22,850 Speaker 1: scientific evidence and come down with scurvy. Now, I had 18 00:01:22,850 --> 00:01:26,210 Speaker 1: assumed I'd be asking Malcolm about David and Goliath, but 19 00:01:26,290 --> 00:01:29,490 Speaker 1: that is not how it went down. Malcolm had questions 20 00:01:29,530 --> 00:01:32,890 Speaker 1: for me, so many questions, and I just loved trying 21 00:01:32,930 --> 00:01:34,730 Speaker 1: to keep up with him. I think you're going to 22 00:01:34,810 --> 00:01:37,570 Speaker 1: enjoy the conversation as much as I did. So now 23 00:01:37,970 --> 00:01:42,250 Speaker 1: Cautionary Tales presents a conversation between me, Tim Harford, and 24 00:01:42,450 --> 00:01:47,570 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell himself. Tim, I've listened to all three of 25 00:01:47,570 --> 00:01:52,370 Speaker 1: your episodes, and I must say I liked him very much. 26 00:01:52,530 --> 00:01:54,610 Speaker 1: Though I thought it was fascinating, I actually knew none 27 00:01:54,610 --> 00:01:57,250 Speaker 1: of this, none at all. I couldn't yet. It was 28 00:01:57,290 --> 00:01:59,650 Speaker 1: all kind of a blur to be all of these, 29 00:01:59,250 --> 00:02:02,570 Speaker 1: all of these explorers from long ago, and are all 30 00:02:02,570 --> 00:02:04,930 Speaker 1: of these dimensions that I didn't understand. But I were 31 00:02:05,010 --> 00:02:09,210 Speaker 1: to start with this contrast between Scott and Ahmad's and 32 00:02:09,810 --> 00:02:12,490 Speaker 1: the complex thing and the thing that makes it really 33 00:02:12,490 --> 00:02:16,090 Speaker 1: fascinating is that Scott is really the innovator, isn't he. Yeah, 34 00:02:15,850 --> 00:02:19,330 Speaker 1: he sees himself as the scientific innovator. He wants to 35 00:02:19,770 --> 00:02:23,610 Speaker 1: he wants to break ground in terms of exploring, measuring 36 00:02:23,650 --> 00:02:28,650 Speaker 1: magnetic fields, discovering new aspects of the flora and fungi 37 00:02:28,690 --> 00:02:31,770 Speaker 1: of Antarctica. There's this crazy side quest they do when 38 00:02:31,810 --> 00:02:34,970 Speaker 1: they're trying to get a penguin egg, which is described 39 00:02:35,010 --> 00:02:37,090 Speaker 1: as the worst journey in the world because they have 40 00:02:37,130 --> 00:02:40,690 Speaker 1: to travel in the Antarctic winter. It's crazy. He's doing 41 00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:44,970 Speaker 1: technological innovation. He has these three motorized sleds, which I 42 00:02:45,010 --> 00:02:47,770 Speaker 1: think partly paved the way for tanks in the First 43 00:02:47,810 --> 00:02:50,450 Speaker 1: World War. And people who think that Scott is awesome 44 00:02:50,770 --> 00:02:53,250 Speaker 1: emphasize all of this ambition, all of the things he 45 00:02:53,330 --> 00:02:56,930 Speaker 1: was trying to do. But of course Amonson just wanted 46 00:02:56,970 --> 00:02:58,810 Speaker 1: to use the best possible way to get to the 47 00:02:58,850 --> 00:03:02,130 Speaker 1: South Pole first. And actually that was innovative in some 48 00:03:02,210 --> 00:03:05,170 Speaker 1: small ways that the precise design of the sled and 49 00:03:05,210 --> 00:03:07,490 Speaker 1: the kind of containers that won't leak, but it was 50 00:03:07,490 --> 00:03:11,130 Speaker 1: basically using techniques that have been used in Greenland by 51 00:03:11,250 --> 00:03:14,610 Speaker 1: indigenous people for well, I mean, we don't know how long, 52 00:03:14,610 --> 00:03:16,770 Speaker 1: a very long time. This is actually what I loved 53 00:03:16,810 --> 00:03:20,890 Speaker 1: about the story is that it's so incredibly contemporary because 54 00:03:21,130 --> 00:03:23,850 Speaker 1: Scott is really the kind of He's the Silicon Valley 55 00:03:23,890 --> 00:03:28,210 Speaker 1: startup who gets an enormous amount of venture funding and 56 00:03:28,290 --> 00:03:30,530 Speaker 1: proceeds to blow it all on a series of ideas 57 00:03:30,650 --> 00:03:34,170 Speaker 1: and solving problems that aren't problems, and Emmonson is the 58 00:03:34,290 --> 00:03:38,170 Speaker 1: kind of bootstrap entrepreneur in the middle of the country 59 00:03:38,170 --> 00:03:41,810 Speaker 1: that no one's paying attention to, who's you know, forced 60 00:03:41,850 --> 00:03:44,450 Speaker 1: to use the tried and true. The original sin it 61 00:03:44,530 --> 00:03:47,810 Speaker 1: sounds like, is the fact that Scott was given everything 62 00:03:47,810 --> 00:03:50,250 Speaker 1: he wanted, everything he wanted, plus a lot of baggage 63 00:03:50,250 --> 00:03:53,530 Speaker 1: he didn't want, all kinds of interference and all kinds 64 00:03:53,530 --> 00:03:55,410 Speaker 1: of people telling him they want to do this, and 65 00:03:55,450 --> 00:03:56,890 Speaker 1: they wanted to do that, and they want them to 66 00:03:56,930 --> 00:03:59,770 Speaker 1: achieve all of these great things, which means he can't focus. 67 00:04:00,010 --> 00:04:02,090 Speaker 1: He's got far too much money, he's got far too 68 00:04:02,090 --> 00:04:06,210 Speaker 1: many people. His ship nearly sinks simply because it's so overladen. 69 00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:09,090 Speaker 1: There's just so much on it. Yeah, that it's nearly 70 00:04:09,170 --> 00:04:11,610 Speaker 1: capsized by a storm on the way to the Antarctic. 71 00:04:11,730 --> 00:04:14,450 Speaker 1: But Amonson, meanwhile, is I not only is no one 72 00:04:14,490 --> 00:04:18,170 Speaker 1: paying attention to him, he's actively engaging in disinformation. He's 73 00:04:18,250 --> 00:04:20,450 Speaker 1: lying to He's even lying to his own crew about 74 00:04:20,450 --> 00:04:22,970 Speaker 1: where he's going. He's telling people he's going north and 75 00:04:23,050 --> 00:04:25,610 Speaker 1: he's actually going south. Yeah, And I love the way 76 00:04:25,650 --> 00:04:28,130 Speaker 1: that you've phrase this is he's a Silicon valley startup, 77 00:04:28,170 --> 00:04:30,330 Speaker 1: because for me, I'm thinking he's a he's a British 78 00:04:30,410 --> 00:04:32,730 Speaker 1: Navy guy. He's kind of a government man. He's a 79 00:04:32,770 --> 00:04:36,130 Speaker 1: military man. He's very bureaucratic. But you're you're seeing some 80 00:04:36,250 --> 00:04:38,610 Speaker 1: a different quality in him and a different problem that 81 00:04:38,690 --> 00:04:43,250 Speaker 1: he's facing. He's given everything he wants, and then as 82 00:04:43,290 --> 00:04:46,090 Speaker 1: a result, he has lots of things he doesn't want. 83 00:04:46,370 --> 00:04:49,170 Speaker 1: Those two things are linked. That's what happens when you 84 00:04:49,210 --> 00:04:51,730 Speaker 1: get everything you want. It's the careful what you wish 85 00:04:51,810 --> 00:04:54,970 Speaker 1: for problem. Right. The things he don't want are a 86 00:04:55,050 --> 00:04:57,930 Speaker 1: consequence of getting everything he wants. In the beginning, he 87 00:04:58,010 --> 00:05:00,250 Speaker 1: has so many people who are pitching in to quote 88 00:05:00,290 --> 00:05:02,810 Speaker 1: unquote help him that he ends up being burdened by 89 00:05:02,850 --> 00:05:07,570 Speaker 1: all of their expectations, which is another Silicon Valley kind 90 00:05:07,610 --> 00:05:11,450 Speaker 1: of conundrum. The venture capitalist gives you fifty million dollars 91 00:05:11,530 --> 00:05:15,410 Speaker 1: and then has a seat at the table and complicates 92 00:05:15,410 --> 00:05:18,050 Speaker 1: your vision with all their sense of where you should 93 00:05:18,090 --> 00:05:21,330 Speaker 1: be going. The funder the venture capitalist in this particular 94 00:05:21,330 --> 00:05:23,730 Speaker 1: case is a guy called Sir Clements Markham, who is 95 00:05:23,770 --> 00:05:28,050 Speaker 1: just this incredibly British, incredibly intimidating fellow. I've got this 96 00:05:28,130 --> 00:05:30,850 Speaker 1: portrait of him and it looks to me like the 97 00:05:30,930 --> 00:05:33,410 Speaker 1: expression on his face is like the photographer has just 98 00:05:33,530 --> 00:05:37,690 Speaker 1: broken wind, and he just looks so unhappy that someone 99 00:05:37,810 --> 00:05:40,570 Speaker 1: is daring to point a camera at him. And he 100 00:05:40,650 --> 00:05:43,610 Speaker 1: was just pulling the strings at the Royal Geographical Society 101 00:05:43,650 --> 00:05:48,090 Speaker 1: in London for decades. He's so tight with Scott and 102 00:05:48,170 --> 00:05:53,610 Speaker 1: Scott's family that Scott names his son Peter after Sir Clements, 103 00:05:54,490 --> 00:05:57,410 Speaker 1: and Scott is clearly terrified of him. And it's one 104 00:05:57,450 --> 00:05:58,970 Speaker 1: of these you know, he put Scott where he is 105 00:05:58,970 --> 00:06:01,170 Speaker 1: and he can put him right back again if he 106 00:06:01,690 --> 00:06:04,610 Speaker 1: wants to. And Sir Clements, who's never been to the Antarctic, 107 00:06:04,610 --> 00:06:07,050 Speaker 1: who's got no idea what it's like down there, just 108 00:06:07,090 --> 00:06:10,570 Speaker 1: has his views. Obviously there should be no dogs. Everybody 109 00:06:10,570 --> 00:06:13,650 Speaker 1: who knows anything about Arctic exploration knows you should use 110 00:06:13,850 --> 00:06:17,410 Speaker 1: dogs for any number of reasons I explain in the episodes. 111 00:06:17,410 --> 00:06:19,650 Speaker 1: But Sir Clements is sitting there in London going, no 112 00:06:20,090 --> 00:06:23,450 Speaker 1: no sky, no dogs, Yeah, and Scott's kind of got 113 00:06:23,450 --> 00:06:25,410 Speaker 1: to do what he says. It's so funny that any 114 00:06:25,450 --> 00:06:29,810 Speaker 1: story about English life in this period always boils down 115 00:06:29,850 --> 00:06:32,730 Speaker 1: to the stupidity of the British ruling class. Sir Clements 116 00:06:32,850 --> 00:06:38,130 Speaker 1: is such a familiar figure, this kind of arrogant, pigheaded 117 00:06:39,170 --> 00:06:42,170 Speaker 1: authority figure who thinks that, who has a kind of 118 00:06:42,570 --> 00:06:46,330 Speaker 1: abstract notion of the way things ought to be. Yes, absolutely, 119 00:06:46,730 --> 00:06:49,250 Speaker 1: which sort of triumphs over the way things actually are. 120 00:06:49,770 --> 00:06:53,930 Speaker 1: But the interesting thing for me about Amundson is that 121 00:06:54,010 --> 00:06:58,290 Speaker 1: he also has these certain bureaucratic constraints. So he's the king, 122 00:06:58,490 --> 00:07:01,970 Speaker 1: is the patron of his expedition, and he's got funding 123 00:07:01,970 --> 00:07:04,330 Speaker 1: from the Norwegian government and all this kind of stuff, 124 00:07:04,650 --> 00:07:06,930 Speaker 1: but he just doesn't care. So he lies to the King, 125 00:07:07,050 --> 00:07:10,250 Speaker 1: he lies to Parliament, he's borrowed all this money, and 126 00:07:10,250 --> 00:07:13,210 Speaker 1: then he basically runs away. One of the things he's 127 00:07:13,210 --> 00:07:16,170 Speaker 1: doing going Fantarctica is getting out of reach of his creditors, 128 00:07:16,170 --> 00:07:18,810 Speaker 1: and it's only when they can't impound his ship that 129 00:07:18,890 --> 00:07:22,370 Speaker 1: he actually tells people exactly what he's doing. So, yes, 130 00:07:22,410 --> 00:07:26,330 Speaker 1: it is partly this kind of this hide bound British bureaucracy, 131 00:07:26,850 --> 00:07:31,050 Speaker 1: but it is also Scott's deference to it in a 132 00:07:31,050 --> 00:07:34,130 Speaker 1: way that Amundson was not interested for a second in 133 00:07:34,170 --> 00:07:36,770 Speaker 1: any of that. Yeah, to bring up the second Silicon 134 00:07:36,850 --> 00:07:41,090 Speaker 1: Valley analogy, there's a little bit of Elizabeth Holmes in 135 00:07:41,170 --> 00:07:44,450 Speaker 1: Ammonson it's fake it to you make it kind of thing. Yeah, 136 00:07:44,850 --> 00:07:46,970 Speaker 1: because he made it. Yeah, he said to be made it. 137 00:07:47,010 --> 00:07:52,650 Speaker 1: But that idea that for someone who's attempting something incredibly difficult, 138 00:07:53,130 --> 00:07:56,210 Speaker 1: that it may be necessary at some time to engage 139 00:07:56,210 --> 00:07:59,210 Speaker 1: in acts of deception at the outset, or maybe a 140 00:07:59,210 --> 00:08:01,930 Speaker 1: better way of saying it is that the kind of 141 00:08:02,810 --> 00:08:07,770 Speaker 1: person who is focused in singular singular enough to pull 142 00:08:07,850 --> 00:08:11,370 Speaker 1: off a feet like this, is willing to engage in deception, 143 00:08:11,770 --> 00:08:14,730 Speaker 1: doesn't have any kind of moral qualm, nothing, nothing. Trump's 144 00:08:15,250 --> 00:08:18,930 Speaker 1: the goal of reaching the South, Paula. Everything else is secondary, 145 00:08:18,970 --> 00:08:21,690 Speaker 1: including the truth. Yeah, and he doesn't seem to have 146 00:08:21,690 --> 00:08:24,250 Speaker 1: lost any sleep over that. And I think Amason had 147 00:08:24,330 --> 00:08:26,530 Speaker 1: this very clear vision that it would all be forgiven 148 00:08:26,570 --> 00:08:29,930 Speaker 1: if he succeeded, and which I suspect that to the 149 00:08:29,970 --> 00:08:32,970 Speaker 1: extent that Elizabeth Holmes that Saranos had a vision of 150 00:08:32,970 --> 00:08:34,970 Speaker 1: what was going on. But there's the same thing, they'll 151 00:08:34,970 --> 00:08:37,570 Speaker 1: forgive me want it all works. Oh, I think she 152 00:08:37,730 --> 00:08:40,610 Speaker 1: very clearly had that. Tim I think that's absolutely much 153 00:08:40,690 --> 00:08:43,650 Speaker 1: driving the whole train. There is it. I can lie in, 154 00:08:43,730 --> 00:08:46,770 Speaker 1: cheat and deceive because if I pull this off, I'm 155 00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:49,370 Speaker 1: a hero. Yeah, tell me a little bit about your 156 00:08:50,090 --> 00:08:53,290 Speaker 1: personal feelings about the two men. I mean, it's clearly 157 00:08:53,330 --> 00:08:56,330 Speaker 1: you're partial to Amadson. If you eat a choice between 158 00:08:56,410 --> 00:08:59,090 Speaker 1: dining with two of them, who's your first choice for 159 00:08:59,130 --> 00:09:02,930 Speaker 1: dinner tonight? Oh? Actually, I think they would both be well, 160 00:09:02,930 --> 00:09:05,450 Speaker 1: they both be interesting, but they would be pretty awkward 161 00:09:05,490 --> 00:09:09,090 Speaker 1: both ways, because I think they both had these huge egos. 162 00:09:08,810 --> 00:09:12,410 Speaker 1: I really like either of them as people. Amonson is 163 00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:16,570 Speaker 1: this anti hero. I'm excited by Amonson's daring and his 164 00:09:17,210 --> 00:09:20,450 Speaker 1: willingness to get things done, and he makes sacrifices and 165 00:09:20,490 --> 00:09:23,250 Speaker 1: he succeeds in the end, and Scott just seems like 166 00:09:23,250 --> 00:09:25,970 Speaker 1: this tragic blunderer. But I'm not sure i'd really want 167 00:09:25,970 --> 00:09:28,130 Speaker 1: to have dinner with either of them. If I'm honest, 168 00:09:28,450 --> 00:09:31,850 Speaker 1: who would you rather? Scott? Yeah? I came away from 169 00:09:31,890 --> 00:09:35,890 Speaker 1: listening to your your episodes liking Amondson, and I felt 170 00:09:36,010 --> 00:09:38,810 Speaker 1: very sorry for him because the world doesn't reward him 171 00:09:38,850 --> 00:09:40,410 Speaker 1: in the way that he ought to have been rewarded. 172 00:09:40,570 --> 00:09:42,450 Speaker 1: He's the hero. He made it look too easy, that's 173 00:09:42,450 --> 00:09:44,050 Speaker 1: the problem. Yeah, he made it look too easy. But 174 00:09:44,170 --> 00:09:47,490 Speaker 1: Scott would just be fascinating, and he's so British, he's 175 00:09:47,570 --> 00:09:50,330 Speaker 1: so of that period. I mean, and you would dine 176 00:09:50,330 --> 00:09:52,570 Speaker 1: out on Scott stories for the rest of your life. 177 00:09:52,850 --> 00:09:54,930 Speaker 1: But if you had dinner with him, get him trying. 178 00:09:55,010 --> 00:09:58,570 Speaker 1: He was. He was a brilliant storyteller and the story 179 00:09:58,770 --> 00:10:01,410 Speaker 1: was of the tragic hero. And he was writing this 180 00:10:01,530 --> 00:10:04,330 Speaker 1: story of the tragic hero who's going to fail all 181 00:10:04,330 --> 00:10:06,530 Speaker 1: the way along. It's almost like he knew how it 182 00:10:06,570 --> 00:10:09,250 Speaker 1: was going to end. Yeah, there's this myth may King 183 00:10:09,330 --> 00:10:12,130 Speaker 1: that goes on afterwards as well. Of course, around Scott 184 00:10:12,210 --> 00:10:15,890 Speaker 1: the British establishments. At first, he's an inspiration for the 185 00:10:15,930 --> 00:10:19,010 Speaker 1: soldiers who are going over over the top in World 186 00:10:19,010 --> 00:10:21,970 Speaker 1: War One, and you know that this is a man 187 00:10:21,970 --> 00:10:24,770 Speaker 1: who knows how to die with dignity as a hero 188 00:10:25,130 --> 00:10:29,210 Speaker 1: for his country. Then later that parallel it is maintained, 189 00:10:29,210 --> 00:10:32,170 Speaker 1: but the moral flips, which is it was so stupid 190 00:10:32,170 --> 00:10:35,290 Speaker 1: and incompetent, and so with the generals in World War One. 191 00:10:35,570 --> 00:10:38,290 Speaker 1: So the whole narrative that the British are telling about 192 00:10:38,330 --> 00:10:41,890 Speaker 1: themselves throughout the twentieth century, the ebbs and flows, Scott 193 00:10:41,930 --> 00:10:44,530 Speaker 1: seems to be the exemplar. No matter what story you 194 00:10:44,570 --> 00:10:46,130 Speaker 1: want to tell, he's there in the middle of it. 195 00:10:46,530 --> 00:10:48,290 Speaker 1: That was something that thought that I was thinking about 196 00:10:48,370 --> 00:10:51,650 Speaker 1: when I was listening this old lady. Of the parallels 197 00:10:51,690 --> 00:10:53,810 Speaker 1: were the First World War, which is, you know, this 198 00:10:53,970 --> 00:10:58,170 Speaker 1: kind of epic example of the ability of the English 199 00:10:58,210 --> 00:11:06,090 Speaker 1: to romanticize failure and stupidity and just kind of tragedy. 200 00:11:06,130 --> 00:11:09,010 Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, just like that idea that dying 201 00:11:09,250 --> 00:11:13,970 Speaker 1: nobly in pursuit of some futile, stupid cause we think 202 00:11:13,970 --> 00:11:16,650 Speaker 1: of that as being the highest of all. There's nothing 203 00:11:16,690 --> 00:11:19,970 Speaker 1: that can stop the myth making machinery of early twentieth 204 00:11:19,970 --> 00:11:23,970 Speaker 1: century England or of kind of late British Empire England. 205 00:11:24,170 --> 00:11:27,130 Speaker 1: I just find it endlessly fascinating the way the kind 206 00:11:27,130 --> 00:11:30,890 Speaker 1: of the minds of these people work. Yeah, when they 207 00:11:30,930 --> 00:11:33,290 Speaker 1: finally find Scott, I mean, and it was never guaranteed 208 00:11:33,290 --> 00:11:35,330 Speaker 1: that they would find him. I mean, he could have 209 00:11:35,410 --> 00:11:38,810 Speaker 1: just been buried under the snow forever. When they finally 210 00:11:38,850 --> 00:11:41,930 Speaker 1: find him, in this terrible scene of him and he's 211 00:11:42,010 --> 00:11:44,970 Speaker 1: the last two men's he's with, and they're trying to 212 00:11:44,970 --> 00:11:48,050 Speaker 1: recover his diaries and move his arm, and his arm 213 00:11:48,170 --> 00:11:52,490 Speaker 1: just shatters because it's it's ice. It's just it's horrific, 214 00:11:53,170 --> 00:11:56,890 Speaker 1: and they're dragging with them about twenty or thirty pounds 215 00:11:56,930 --> 00:11:59,650 Speaker 1: worth of fossils, and then they haven't got any strength 216 00:11:59,770 --> 00:12:02,090 Speaker 1: more and any any strength to go any further, and 217 00:12:02,130 --> 00:12:04,290 Speaker 1: they all die and they've still got the fossils with them. 218 00:12:04,530 --> 00:12:08,250 Speaker 1: And there was one commentator who said, I think they 219 00:12:08,250 --> 00:12:10,530 Speaker 1: could have saved them else the weight, but all the 220 00:12:10,570 --> 00:12:13,250 Speaker 1: British were just isn't it epic? They were still trying 221 00:12:13,250 --> 00:12:15,530 Speaker 1: to do the science even up to the last moment, 222 00:12:15,650 --> 00:12:17,610 Speaker 1: and you know, the sensible response is, well, maybe they 223 00:12:17,650 --> 00:12:19,610 Speaker 1: should have stopped doing the science at the point at 224 00:12:19,610 --> 00:12:22,370 Speaker 1: which they were all clearly about to die. Yeah, it's 225 00:12:22,410 --> 00:12:24,010 Speaker 1: all part of the story, all part of the myth. 226 00:12:24,450 --> 00:12:29,210 Speaker 1: It's some mixture of a suicidal impulse and imperialism. You know, 227 00:12:29,250 --> 00:12:34,250 Speaker 1: it's like what happens when grandiose national dreams coincide with 228 00:12:34,890 --> 00:12:38,370 Speaker 1: psychological neurosis. You end up dragging the fossils with you. 229 00:12:38,770 --> 00:12:41,570 Speaker 1: And it's really this this weird kind of turning point 230 00:12:41,570 --> 00:12:43,690 Speaker 1: in the British Empire as well. And the British Empire 231 00:12:43,810 --> 00:12:47,210 Speaker 1: is last another half a century really until after the 232 00:12:47,210 --> 00:12:50,610 Speaker 1: Second World War. But the glory days or if you 233 00:12:50,890 --> 00:12:53,490 Speaker 1: if you prefer that, you know, the terrible days of 234 00:12:53,570 --> 00:12:57,090 Speaker 1: moral outrage. They're all in the past. All the conquering, 235 00:12:57,730 --> 00:13:01,370 Speaker 1: the exploitation, the stealing other people's land, the telling other 236 00:13:01,370 --> 00:13:05,530 Speaker 1: people what to do, the slave trade in the earlier centuries, 237 00:13:05,850 --> 00:13:09,930 Speaker 1: that's all happened, and Scott and his crew are just 238 00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:12,730 Speaker 1: trying to race to be the first person to this 239 00:13:12,850 --> 00:13:16,730 Speaker 1: arbitrary point on this icy desert. There's nothing there, there's 240 00:13:16,770 --> 00:13:19,770 Speaker 1: no resources, there's nothing, there's no people, and yet it 241 00:13:19,850 --> 00:13:23,810 Speaker 1: still matters to them. It's that last gasp of empire. Yeah, 242 00:13:24,410 --> 00:13:26,610 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell and I will be back in a moment 243 00:13:26,650 --> 00:13:30,330 Speaker 1: to discuss how Scott and Amonson viewed their own chances, 244 00:13:30,850 --> 00:13:33,650 Speaker 1: why Amonson didn't seem to get the recognition he deserves, 245 00:13:33,850 --> 00:13:40,770 Speaker 1: and what we can learn from imperfect experiments. I'm back 246 00:13:40,850 --> 00:13:44,610 Speaker 1: with Malcolm Gladwell. I was curious about who do you 247 00:13:44,770 --> 00:13:49,690 Speaker 1: think at the moment both men get off their boats 248 00:13:49,690 --> 00:13:52,850 Speaker 1: and strike out on this expedition, Who do you think 249 00:13:53,010 --> 00:13:56,290 Speaker 1: is more confident in their heart of pulling it off? 250 00:13:56,610 --> 00:13:59,770 Speaker 1: Does Scott think he has a realistic chance? I think, 251 00:13:59,770 --> 00:14:04,410 Speaker 1: without a doubt Amonson. Scott is worried about Amonson from 252 00:14:04,490 --> 00:14:08,770 Speaker 1: the start. He knows Amonson has started closer to the pole. 253 00:14:09,370 --> 00:14:13,010 Speaker 1: He knows that because Amonson is traveling with dogs, which 254 00:14:13,010 --> 00:14:16,130 Speaker 1: have certain advantages, that Amonson is going to start earlier 255 00:14:16,210 --> 00:14:20,090 Speaker 1: in the spring. So for those two reasons alone, he 256 00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:23,730 Speaker 1: knows Amonson has this fantastic advantage. Scott is very confused 257 00:14:23,770 --> 00:14:26,530 Speaker 1: in the way he expresses this, because he will sometimes say, well, 258 00:14:26,570 --> 00:14:28,330 Speaker 1: I'm not really a big fan of dog they don't 259 00:14:28,330 --> 00:14:32,090 Speaker 1: really work, and then in the same letter he'll say, well, 260 00:14:32,130 --> 00:14:34,890 Speaker 1: Amonson has a big advantage because he's using dogs, and 261 00:14:34,970 --> 00:14:36,490 Speaker 1: you go, well, how can you how can you write 262 00:14:36,490 --> 00:14:40,210 Speaker 1: those two paragraphs on the same page. Amonson is always 263 00:14:40,210 --> 00:14:43,610 Speaker 1: concerned that maybe Scott will will beat him, but I 264 00:14:43,650 --> 00:14:46,050 Speaker 1: think he's he's very confident. He know he has a plan, 265 00:14:46,130 --> 00:14:48,370 Speaker 1: he knows exactly how it's going to go. The main 266 00:14:48,530 --> 00:14:51,010 Speaker 1: risk to Amonson is that he's so eager, he starts 267 00:14:51,050 --> 00:14:54,370 Speaker 1: too early, he hits bad weather and so there's a 268 00:14:54,370 --> 00:14:57,730 Speaker 1: false start. But once he really gets going, there's never 269 00:14:57,730 --> 00:15:01,610 Speaker 1: really any doubt. Yeah. Yeah, the whole thing so Norwegian, 270 00:15:01,650 --> 00:15:05,690 Speaker 1: with the skiers going out ahead, and it's just like 271 00:15:05,370 --> 00:15:09,930 Speaker 1: it's crazy. The diaries. You've got these the diary interests 272 00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:14,010 Speaker 1: from Scott saying oh, it's terrible. The ice is forming 273 00:15:14,050 --> 00:15:17,370 Speaker 1: on the nozzles of the ponies. They're sinking through the eyes. 274 00:15:17,490 --> 00:15:20,250 Speaker 1: This is our spirits are very low. This is really hard. 275 00:15:20,490 --> 00:15:24,130 Speaker 1: And Amonson's diaries, he's telling stories about racing with this 276 00:15:24,210 --> 00:15:27,050 Speaker 1: world champion skier and trying to do these sharp turns 277 00:15:27,090 --> 00:15:29,930 Speaker 1: and falling over and isn't it fun? And you know 278 00:15:30,050 --> 00:15:32,690 Speaker 1: he's telemarking. Yeah, he's doing these telemark turns and he's 279 00:15:33,130 --> 00:15:35,970 Speaker 1: joking that, oh, I don't at least this guy pretended 280 00:15:36,450 --> 00:15:38,730 Speaker 1: not to see me fall over. And they're just they're 281 00:15:38,850 --> 00:15:41,490 Speaker 1: having fun on fresh powder. And it could not be 282 00:15:41,930 --> 00:15:46,090 Speaker 1: more different the impression that they're painting of themselves in 283 00:15:46,130 --> 00:15:49,730 Speaker 1: their diaries. Now, maybe their experiences were more similar than 284 00:15:49,770 --> 00:15:53,570 Speaker 1: their diaries described, although I kind of suspect not. This 285 00:15:53,770 --> 00:15:56,970 Speaker 1: is a massive hypothetical, but there was something in Scott's 286 00:15:57,010 --> 00:16:00,490 Speaker 1: attempt that seems very late Empire. But there was a 287 00:16:00,530 --> 00:16:04,290 Speaker 1: moment when the British empires kind of ability to pull 288 00:16:04,330 --> 00:16:06,570 Speaker 1: off these kinds of feats would have looked a lot 289 00:16:06,610 --> 00:16:09,650 Speaker 1: more like Edmondson. I'm wondering if if the Wish Empire 290 00:16:09,770 --> 00:16:13,450 Speaker 1: is beginning in the late nineteenth century as opposed to ending. Yeah, 291 00:16:13,610 --> 00:16:16,610 Speaker 1: does Scout work. In other words, is he a victim 292 00:16:16,650 --> 00:16:22,890 Speaker 1: of the kind of encroaching, bureautization and sclerosis that attends 293 00:16:22,930 --> 00:16:26,370 Speaker 1: to a country and decline, an empire and decline. I 294 00:16:26,410 --> 00:16:29,170 Speaker 1: mean my sense is that a lot of it is 295 00:16:29,730 --> 00:16:34,290 Speaker 1: the conservatism that comes from having something to defend, the 296 00:16:34,410 --> 00:16:37,410 Speaker 1: feeling that you should be winning every battle, that you've 297 00:16:37,410 --> 00:16:40,650 Speaker 1: got loads to lose, not much extra stuff to gain, 298 00:16:40,890 --> 00:16:44,130 Speaker 1: and then that that conservatism sets in. That that's a guess, 299 00:16:44,170 --> 00:16:47,970 Speaker 1: and early earlier on in the British Empire, they're the 300 00:16:48,010 --> 00:16:51,570 Speaker 1: plucky underdocks. I mean, you can object the morality of it, 301 00:16:51,610 --> 00:16:54,050 Speaker 1: and I think we do now from the twenty first century, 302 00:16:54,050 --> 00:16:56,850 Speaker 1: object to the morality of it. But this this tiny 303 00:16:56,890 --> 00:16:59,730 Speaker 1: country that is just conquering vast swaths of the world, 304 00:16:59,770 --> 00:17:02,850 Speaker 1: and it is incredible how they're managing to pull it off. 305 00:17:02,890 --> 00:17:06,730 Speaker 1: And it's much more entrepreneurial, much more dynamic, much more improvisational, 306 00:17:06,970 --> 00:17:12,610 Speaker 1: much cleverer than Scott and his cohorts his contemporaries seem 307 00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:14,490 Speaker 1: to be able to pull off. Maybe another way of 308 00:17:14,530 --> 00:17:18,250 Speaker 1: saying is that Amerson sounds he sounds like an eighteenth 309 00:17:18,330 --> 00:17:22,090 Speaker 1: century English explorer. He does, and Amason is from a 310 00:17:22,170 --> 00:17:24,690 Speaker 1: very young country. I mean, Norway is only only just 311 00:17:24,810 --> 00:17:28,250 Speaker 1: got its independence, so it's very aware of its need 312 00:17:28,290 --> 00:17:30,650 Speaker 1: to establish itself and to show the big boys that 313 00:17:30,690 --> 00:17:32,650 Speaker 1: it can do something. So that I think comes across 314 00:17:32,730 --> 00:17:34,450 Speaker 1: very much in what Amerson is doing. And he's like 315 00:17:34,490 --> 00:17:37,810 Speaker 1: that as well. He's got that scrappy underdog mentality. But 316 00:17:37,970 --> 00:17:41,450 Speaker 1: this brings up my last puzzle about about the story, 317 00:17:41,490 --> 00:17:45,330 Speaker 1: which is that the British should have readjust their expectations 318 00:17:45,370 --> 00:17:47,690 Speaker 1: to turn them into a hero, and Amason does not. 319 00:17:47,890 --> 00:17:51,050 Speaker 1: Even in his own country. He isn't the conquering hero 320 00:17:51,130 --> 00:17:54,050 Speaker 1: that you that he expected to be, which makes no 321 00:17:54,130 --> 00:17:57,090 Speaker 1: sense to me. Yeah, I grew up in Canada. Canada 322 00:17:57,170 --> 00:18:01,650 Speaker 1: is psychologically a lot like Norway. You know, we're too small, 323 00:18:02,130 --> 00:18:05,410 Speaker 1: and if you win a bronze medal in the Olympics 324 00:18:05,690 --> 00:18:08,330 Speaker 1: for Canada, you treat it as if you won the gold. 325 00:18:09,290 --> 00:18:11,370 Speaker 1: Considered to be it's been unbelievable old brands, you know 326 00:18:11,410 --> 00:18:15,090 Speaker 1: what I mean. So Norway it's tiny, They had nothing 327 00:18:15,130 --> 00:18:17,810 Speaker 1: going on, and this guy, one of their own, goes 328 00:18:18,090 --> 00:18:21,530 Speaker 1: and defeats the English at one of the great adventure 329 00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:24,970 Speaker 1: prizes of the era. And yet they come back and 330 00:18:25,010 --> 00:18:27,930 Speaker 1: they're like, yeah, they're excited at the time. I mean 331 00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:30,450 Speaker 1: it's actually it's huge at the time, but then the 332 00:18:30,530 --> 00:18:34,130 Speaker 1: question is, well, what's what's the second act? And actually, 333 00:18:34,730 --> 00:18:36,770 Speaker 1: in the end, Amonson gets tied up with the same 334 00:18:36,850 --> 00:18:40,650 Speaker 1: kinds of obligations that that wrapped around Scott's neck, and 335 00:18:40,690 --> 00:18:43,370 Speaker 1: he has to do these this scientific experiment because he 336 00:18:43,370 --> 00:18:45,050 Speaker 1: owes somebody a fade. He has to do all this 337 00:18:45,130 --> 00:18:46,890 Speaker 1: stuff and he hates it. He doesn't want to do it, 338 00:18:46,930 --> 00:18:48,570 Speaker 1: but he feels that he has to do it. And 339 00:18:48,650 --> 00:18:52,050 Speaker 1: there this slow, slow decline and this feeling of the 340 00:18:52,090 --> 00:18:55,010 Speaker 1: one hit wonder. Rock star is not fair to describe 341 00:18:55,090 --> 00:18:56,730 Speaker 1: him as a one hit wonder because he did several 342 00:18:56,730 --> 00:18:58,650 Speaker 1: other amazing things that no one, no one had ever 343 00:18:58,690 --> 00:19:02,010 Speaker 1: done before. But this sense of fading glory and ten 344 00:19:02,090 --> 00:19:05,090 Speaker 1: years later, after the First World War and people are 345 00:19:05,090 --> 00:19:08,610 Speaker 1: saying Amonson, oh, yeah, he's still alive. He's still doing it, 346 00:19:08,730 --> 00:19:12,130 Speaker 1: and he becomes this slightly ridiculous figure who's who's striving 347 00:19:12,130 --> 00:19:16,370 Speaker 1: through elevance. He needs money and people who want sort 348 00:19:16,370 --> 00:19:18,290 Speaker 1: of him as a hero now think of him as 349 00:19:18,290 --> 00:19:20,490 Speaker 1: a bit you know, a husband. Yeah, and it's it's 350 00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:22,650 Speaker 1: a very sad end. Yeah, if you make a list 351 00:19:22,650 --> 00:19:25,250 Speaker 1: of most famous Norwegians of all time. If you ask 352 00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:29,410 Speaker 1: Norwegians for the list, you know Magnus Carlson, Jacob Bingerbritton 353 00:19:30,050 --> 00:19:33,210 Speaker 1: is where is Admonson on that list? He he recovered 354 00:19:33,250 --> 00:19:36,330 Speaker 1: his reputation with the passage of time. Oh, he must have, 355 00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:40,250 Speaker 1: he must have. And fun fact, Roald Dahal, the great 356 00:19:40,330 --> 00:19:43,170 Speaker 1: children's author and not just children's author, was named after 357 00:19:43,250 --> 00:19:46,650 Speaker 1: rold Amonson. Oh yeah, so I mean rold Ammonson. He was. 358 00:19:46,810 --> 00:19:49,610 Speaker 1: He was big news for a time at a certain moment, 359 00:19:49,890 --> 00:19:51,530 Speaker 1: he was one of the first, was one of the 360 00:19:51,530 --> 00:19:54,330 Speaker 1: most famous people around. But then the First World War 361 00:19:54,930 --> 00:19:57,730 Speaker 1: people had other things to worry about. Yeah. One question 362 00:19:57,730 --> 00:19:59,770 Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask you, having worked on this. 363 00:20:00,170 --> 00:20:03,530 Speaker 1: One of the subplots of this epic race between these 364 00:20:03,570 --> 00:20:08,490 Speaker 1: two men is scurvy. And what's weird about scurvy is 365 00:20:09,130 --> 00:20:12,810 Speaker 1: we're told that James Lynde, a Royal Navy surgeon, proved 366 00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:16,410 Speaker 1: how to cure and indeed how to prevent scurvy in 367 00:20:16,530 --> 00:20:20,530 Speaker 1: seventeen forty seven. This is nearly two centuries before this race, 368 00:20:20,570 --> 00:20:22,850 Speaker 1: which is in the early nineteen hundreds. You just need 369 00:20:23,050 --> 00:20:26,530 Speaker 1: lemons or oranges. It's fine, And he's a British Navy surgeon, 370 00:20:26,570 --> 00:20:29,610 Speaker 1: so the British Navy, among all the institutions, should understand this. 371 00:20:30,010 --> 00:20:34,090 Speaker 1: And Robert Scott is also a British Navy officer. And 372 00:20:34,210 --> 00:20:36,850 Speaker 1: yet somehow, by the time we get to the age 373 00:20:36,850 --> 00:20:40,610 Speaker 1: of Arctic exploration, people have either forgotten or they no 374 00:20:40,610 --> 00:20:44,490 Speaker 1: longer believe the result of James's experiment. And that's a 375 00:20:44,530 --> 00:20:50,010 Speaker 1: puzzle that I wrestle with in the episode. But your 376 00:20:50,410 --> 00:20:54,570 Speaker 1: most recent season of revisionist history is all about experiments 377 00:20:54,970 --> 00:20:56,810 Speaker 1: and what we learn from them or what we don't 378 00:20:56,890 --> 00:20:59,970 Speaker 1: learn from them. And are you surprised to hear of 379 00:21:00,010 --> 00:21:02,650 Speaker 1: this great experiment that proved this wonderful thing and then 380 00:21:02,690 --> 00:21:05,450 Speaker 1: everyone somehow managed to ignore it. Well, I thought the 381 00:21:05,490 --> 00:21:08,650 Speaker 1: way you talked this through to me was very in 382 00:21:08,650 --> 00:21:13,050 Speaker 1: the episode was very convincing, which was Lynn does an experiment, 383 00:21:13,090 --> 00:21:16,850 Speaker 1: but he doesn't finish the experiment, or he can't. Yeah, 384 00:21:16,970 --> 00:21:19,730 Speaker 1: he can't tell you why it works. He's made a 385 00:21:19,770 --> 00:21:21,770 Speaker 1: general observation. You put it all the ways in which 386 00:21:22,050 --> 00:21:25,370 Speaker 1: lemons aren't as good as oranges. If you boil the 387 00:21:25,410 --> 00:21:28,770 Speaker 1: orange juice, it by him and see disappears if you 388 00:21:28,890 --> 00:21:32,690 Speaker 1: use copper. That leaches out a sorbic acid, which is 389 00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:35,890 Speaker 1: what you need for scurvy. Lynn discovers something, but you 390 00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:38,810 Speaker 1: realize that a piece of knowledge has to exist within 391 00:21:38,850 --> 00:21:43,090 Speaker 1: an ecosystem to be useful, and there's no ecosystem. Lynne 392 00:21:43,090 --> 00:21:46,770 Speaker 1: discovers a stray fact, and a stray fact is of 393 00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:50,250 Speaker 1: limited use we really in the real world, and without 394 00:21:50,450 --> 00:21:52,930 Speaker 1: that fact being anchored, you know, you end up with 395 00:21:52,970 --> 00:21:55,690 Speaker 1: these paradoxes of two hundred years later, Scott is like 396 00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:58,650 Speaker 1: his men are dying of scurvy. Like you know, you're 397 00:21:58,810 --> 00:22:02,970 Speaker 1: left baffled. I'm curious. So is that a tendency that 398 00:22:03,010 --> 00:22:04,850 Speaker 1: you see more often? You've you've been thinking about all 399 00:22:04,890 --> 00:22:07,010 Speaker 1: these experiments You've you've told all these stories about these 400 00:22:07,050 --> 00:22:10,090 Speaker 1: different experiments that have happened, that have been deliberately designed, 401 00:22:10,130 --> 00:22:13,810 Speaker 1: that have accidentally occurred. Do we often conduct experiments and 402 00:22:13,810 --> 00:22:15,930 Speaker 1: then not realize what it is that we've actually found 403 00:22:16,010 --> 00:22:18,490 Speaker 1: because we've got nowhere to take advantage of the knowledge 404 00:22:18,570 --> 00:22:21,570 Speaker 1: or to plug the knowledge into some wider theory of 405 00:22:21,570 --> 00:22:24,330 Speaker 1: the world. Well, I would say, you know, the most 406 00:22:24,370 --> 00:22:27,490 Speaker 1: interesting point you make in that episode is that they 407 00:22:27,490 --> 00:22:29,530 Speaker 1: didn't understand that there was a kind of for a 408 00:22:29,570 --> 00:22:31,970 Speaker 1: long time that there was a window that you can 409 00:22:32,090 --> 00:22:34,170 Speaker 1: go without vitab and see for a while and be fine, 410 00:22:34,210 --> 00:22:36,770 Speaker 1: and then boom the hammer comes down. Yeah, which is 411 00:22:36,810 --> 00:22:39,810 Speaker 1: an incredibly, first of all, a difficult thing to as 412 00:22:39,850 --> 00:22:42,850 Speaker 1: you point out, to find out, and the implications of 413 00:22:42,890 --> 00:22:45,410 Speaker 1: that is you can think you've solved the problem and 414 00:22:45,450 --> 00:22:47,930 Speaker 1: you haven't. I guess what this is saying is that 415 00:22:48,290 --> 00:22:52,050 Speaker 1: the thing that people often misunderstand I guess about modern 416 00:22:52,090 --> 00:22:56,770 Speaker 1: science is the value of having a vast number of 417 00:22:57,610 --> 00:23:01,290 Speaker 1: academics out there who are treading over the same territory. Right. 418 00:23:01,290 --> 00:23:04,330 Speaker 1: We sometimes roll our eyes about, oh my god, do 419 00:23:04,370 --> 00:23:07,290 Speaker 1: we really need to have a hundred research facilities funded 420 00:23:07,290 --> 00:23:09,890 Speaker 1: by the whatever? But we do. This is what was 421 00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:12,850 Speaker 1: the problem with scurvy, right, Yeah, you did have twenty 422 00:23:12,890 --> 00:23:16,850 Speaker 1: five different labs around around England doing work on scurvy 423 00:23:16,890 --> 00:23:18,930 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth centuries. So we could have teased out 424 00:23:18,970 --> 00:23:22,450 Speaker 1: all of these little qualifying facts and so we could 425 00:23:22,450 --> 00:23:25,690 Speaker 1: have populated the kind of ecosystem. Yeah, And it wasn't 426 00:23:25,970 --> 00:23:28,010 Speaker 1: actually wasn't just Lynde. I mean, there was somebody before 427 00:23:28,090 --> 00:23:30,530 Speaker 1: lynd There were people after Lynde, but there weren't enough 428 00:23:30,570 --> 00:23:34,130 Speaker 1: of them. Not only was this discovered and then forgotten 429 00:23:34,570 --> 00:23:37,450 Speaker 1: or misunderstood. It was discovered and then misunderstood and then 430 00:23:37,490 --> 00:23:40,170 Speaker 1: forgotten multiple times that we went through this whole cycle 431 00:23:40,170 --> 00:23:42,210 Speaker 1: of people believing in this thing and then not believing 432 00:23:42,210 --> 00:23:44,690 Speaker 1: in this thing because they just didn't have enough of 433 00:23:44,730 --> 00:23:47,250 Speaker 1: that extra work to attach it to their understanding of 434 00:23:47,650 --> 00:23:51,490 Speaker 1: how the world will. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because reporters 435 00:23:51,570 --> 00:23:55,210 Speaker 1: and scientists, I think learned the same lesson over the 436 00:23:55,250 --> 00:23:58,170 Speaker 1: course of their careers, which is, you think you're done 437 00:23:58,210 --> 00:24:01,090 Speaker 1: and you're not. You know, all those qualifying facts you 438 00:24:01,170 --> 00:24:04,490 Speaker 1: lay out about scurvy that were misunderstood. There's more a 439 00:24:04,570 --> 00:24:08,930 Speaker 1: scurvy than laments than door oranges rather, right, I mean 440 00:24:09,450 --> 00:24:12,370 Speaker 1: just the lemon. I thought there's the lemon distinction. I 441 00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:14,330 Speaker 1: was thinking, who on Earth would have thought there was 442 00:24:14,330 --> 00:24:17,210 Speaker 1: a difference between lemons and oranges in their ability to 443 00:24:17,370 --> 00:24:21,930 Speaker 1: kind of deliver the crucial ingredient for stopping scurvy. Yeah, 444 00:24:21,930 --> 00:24:23,930 Speaker 1: well it's the limes. The limes is the reals, because 445 00:24:23,930 --> 00:24:26,610 Speaker 1: they're just they're just green lemons, right, Limes are just 446 00:24:26,650 --> 00:24:29,610 Speaker 1: green lemons, except it turns out they're not, and the 447 00:24:29,690 --> 00:24:33,530 Speaker 1: Brits are falsely called limes. They should be called oranges. Yeah, 448 00:24:33,570 --> 00:24:37,930 Speaker 1: well they are correctly called limes because they're drinking lime juice. 449 00:24:37,930 --> 00:24:41,530 Speaker 1: And that's their problem, because they wrongly think that limes 450 00:24:41,650 --> 00:24:45,010 Speaker 1: are just like oranges and lemons. Yeah, when I'm cooking, 451 00:24:45,290 --> 00:24:47,250 Speaker 1: if a recipe calls for lemon juice or lime juice, 452 00:24:47,250 --> 00:24:49,330 Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, it's the same. It's not the same. 453 00:24:49,410 --> 00:24:51,210 Speaker 1: It's not the same. But but since you don't know 454 00:24:51,290 --> 00:24:54,450 Speaker 1: what vitamin C is, oh I misspoke, it's the difference 455 00:24:54,450 --> 00:24:57,730 Speaker 1: between oranges and lemons on the one hand and limes 456 00:24:57,770 --> 00:25:00,330 Speaker 1: on the other. Yes, the crucial they see. It's so subtle. 457 00:25:00,650 --> 00:25:02,890 Speaker 1: It's so easy to lose track a commission in the 458 00:25:02,930 --> 00:25:07,770 Speaker 1: British Navy. Await it's Malcolm, your failure to so fully 459 00:25:07,770 --> 00:25:11,810 Speaker 1: internalized the action between different citrus fruits. This was so 460 00:25:11,890 --> 00:25:14,130 Speaker 1: much fun. Thank you so much, Thank you, Jim. It's 461 00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:17,730 Speaker 1: a wonderful series. Thank you to Malcolm Gladwell. And if 462 00:25:17,730 --> 00:25:20,410 Speaker 1: you've not done so, subscribe and listen to the latest 463 00:25:20,450 --> 00:25:22,930 Speaker 1: season of his podcast, Revisionist History.