Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Jackie Golschneider and Jennifer Wessler. We are
Speaker 1: two Jersey Jays. Hi. Guys, Hi, we don't have a
Speaker 1: guest today, which I kind of love because I kind
Speaker 1: of love just like talking to you. I do too.
Speaker 2: I kind of like having just this back and forth,
Speaker 2: you know. I also obviously we both love having guests.
Speaker 2: We have actually some really cool ones. Yeah, wind up,
Speaker 2: Yes we do.
Speaker 1: Today it's just us. Yeah, and it's a really it's
Speaker 1: an interesting topic, Greed agreed, a topic that both of
Speaker 1: us actually have a lot of things to say about.
Speaker 1: So today's topic is family relationships, and I think a
Speaker 1: big part of that is estrangement sometimes unfortunately, that is
Speaker 1: a big part of it on our show right now,
Speaker 1: without going into any detail, there's a lot of family estrangements.
Speaker 2: Yes, unfortunately, And you know, I've had some estrangements within
Speaker 2: my family. I still actually do, not personally, but family members.
Speaker 2: I think it's just really really difficult. Sometimes it's for
Speaker 2: the best, other times not so much. But you know,
Speaker 2: I think that it's something that most people have either
Speaker 2: dealt with or have had loved ones deal with, you know.
Speaker 1: And it's funny that you say that because when I so,
Speaker 1: I have like a very specific family estrangement that has
Speaker 1: always I don't know, I waver between it bothering me
Speaker 1: and it not bothering me. But I always kind of
Speaker 1: felt like I was the only person. And now I
Speaker 1: see how common it is, But for a long time,
Speaker 1: I always felt like, why does everybody else get a
Speaker 1: perfect family unit and mine is so dub Not that
Speaker 1: my family is stup, but this relationship is so like
Speaker 1: far gone, but I always felt like nobody else has
Speaker 1: to deal with this, well except for me.
Speaker 2: Both just did an article about family estrangements and there's
Speaker 2: apparently there's a no contact family hashtag and it's garnered
Speaker 2: just millions of views. So according to Psychology Today, at
Speaker 2: least one in four people actually experience estrangements, which seems
Speaker 2: like a huge number to me.
Speaker 1: Well, it doesn't seem that huge to me because in
Speaker 1: my family, and like my parents are very nice people,
Speaker 1: my mother is estranged from her sister. My father was
Speaker 1: estranged from his brother for twenty years before his brother died,
Speaker 1: and I have always since as far back as I
Speaker 1: can remember, I've been a strange from my sister. Well,
Speaker 1: start talking, Oh, way to talk about it. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: So tell me. You know, here's the difficulty. Before I
Speaker 1: go into the I'm not going to really go out
Speaker 1: of respect for my sister, I will not go into
Speaker 1: like specifics of what you know has happened over the years,
Speaker 1: but like there's never been a relationship there. So there's
Speaker 1: been aggression, there's been fighting because there's no respect or
Speaker 1: love there. I think that would almost make it easier, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's not hard for me on a daily basis.
Speaker 1: I don't care. What's hard for me is knowing that
Speaker 1: I have a living blood sister who lives in the
Speaker 1: same state as me that I have no relationship with.
Speaker 1: It's very strange to me that my children don't know her.
Speaker 1: They couldn't pick her out of a lineup. Wow, it's
Speaker 1: weird to me, you know, And I think that's what
Speaker 1: bothers me is more like the idea of it, not
Speaker 1: that I actually want a relationship with her. And you
Speaker 1: have nieces and nephews are yeah, who I love who
Speaker 1: I'm very relationship with them. Yes, do you have a
Speaker 1: very long story, but she doesn't have one with yours.
Speaker 1: So my which we started at the beginning. Yeah, let's
Speaker 1: let's start at the start. So you know, I never
Speaker 1: had a relationship with my sister. She's five years older
Speaker 1: than me. Growing up, she really wanted nothing to do
Speaker 1: with me. I have to believe it's her, because how
Speaker 1: do you hate a five year old? You know, so
Speaker 1: she she I had nothing to do and they wanted
Speaker 1: nothing to do with you, Like where was your mom?
Speaker 1: And this just never played with you. Didn't help much
Speaker 1: older My parents worked full time and I had a
Speaker 1: disabled brother, so I still have a disabled brother. No
Speaker 1: that how much older is your sister? Five years? Okay,
Speaker 1: so nobody had time for this, like like fighting sisters nonsense,
Speaker 1: Like my parents had all because you thought that much
Speaker 1: because we were so far apart in age. It wasn't
Speaker 1: even that we would fight. It was I felt from
Speaker 1: my perspective, it was that I was like she was
Speaker 1: just like torture me, Like it was hell yeah, and
Speaker 1: like the few times that my parents left her to
Speaker 1: babysit me, like it just wasn't good at all. And
Speaker 1: then when I was thirteen, we moved and she was eighteen,
Speaker 1: she moved out, so like my parents got our condo
Speaker 1: just to get her the fuck out of the house
Speaker 1: and that was it. We've hardly seen each other since,
Speaker 1: so there wasn't a big blowout. It was just we're
Speaker 1: not close. We never have been close. We just don't
Speaker 1: like each other. Blowout because but there was never good times.
Speaker 1: There was only blowout, so like there was no contact
Speaker 1: and then she'd have a fight with my parents and
Speaker 1: stick me in the middle of that fight. Now we
Speaker 1: did have a fight, my mom would try to get
Speaker 1: us together, and then the fights would be even more
Speaker 1: explosive because it always ended in a fight, and I
Speaker 1: just it just never worked. So there's the part of
Speaker 1: me that so I gave up a few years ago,
Speaker 1: not interested anymore. Wasn't good for me, wasn't good for
Speaker 1: my husband, wasn't good for our family, And I don't
Speaker 1: there's nothing to miss, you know, it's just weird to me.
Speaker 1: It feels weird. And here's what feels weirder is that
Speaker 1: society tells you that you can never give up on family,
Speaker 1: and for a long time that made me feel like
Speaker 1: I was giving up too easily. And so every few
Speaker 1: months I would send a text message or I would
Speaker 1: be like, do you want to try? Do you want
Speaker 1: to meet for lunch? Do you want to and then
Speaker 1: it just would never go anywhere, and I felt very conflicted,
Speaker 1: like how much how do you balance this message from
Speaker 1: society that you have to keep trying, that you don't
Speaker 1: give up on family with this feeling that something is
Speaker 1: just not good for you or a relationship adds nothing
Speaker 1: to your life.
Speaker 2: And it was Yeah, I feel like that narrative, though,
Speaker 2: has changed. I feel like there's so much that I
Speaker 2: see on social media about you know, being you know,
Speaker 2: friends or chosen family, or when something's toxic, how to
Speaker 2: walk away from it, including family. I feel like I
Speaker 2: see more and more of that. You don't see that, yes.
Speaker 1: I do, but I think when it's your life and
Speaker 1: you see how it interferes with your family dynamic, Like, look,
Speaker 1: I'm for forty seven years old. My life is pretty
Speaker 1: solid without the relationship with my sister in it. But
Speaker 1: I do feel very I'm very aware of the fact
Speaker 1: that my original family, not the family I have now.
Speaker 1: We are never in the same room together, except if
Speaker 1: it's like a huge occasion like someone's born mitzvah or something,
Speaker 1: and then there's no contact between us. But we're in
Speaker 1: the same room, but we never have family. It's interesting
Speaker 1: to me that.
Speaker 2: So my experience with family estrangement has not been well.
Speaker 2: Depends what you define as long term, right, Like I've
Speaker 2: gone a year without speaking to my sister. I've gone
Speaker 2: a year without speaking to a cousin who I'm very
Speaker 2: very very close to, even estrangement. Not speaking to one
Speaker 2: of my parents for months. Is that a strangement or
Speaker 2: is that just a I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's a break.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting to me because nothing specifically happened between
Speaker 2: you and your sister. I can't imagine that both of
Speaker 2: you haven't grown and evolved and changed, and yet you're
Speaker 2: both nobody is like you're You're just don't feel like
Speaker 2: you even have a yearning to talk to her or
Speaker 2: have her be part of your life. And I think
Speaker 2: that maybe because you have never been closed my periods
Speaker 2: of estrangement. For instance, with my sister, I want to say,
Speaker 2: maybe over a year we didn't speak. I don't know
Speaker 2: what's kid considered. I mean, at that point, did I
Speaker 2: say we were estranged?
Speaker 1: Maybe?
Speaker 2: I don't with the dictionary what the definition of estrangement is,
Speaker 2: but it I was so angry and she was so angry.
Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about It's hard. This is
Speaker 2: hard because I don't really but I can. I can
Speaker 2: tell you that we were always so Robin and I
Speaker 2: my sister were fourteen months apart, so I am older,
Speaker 2: and I would growing up, I would terrorize her by
Speaker 2: and we'd laugh about it. Now, you know. My mom
Speaker 2: would leave us together and I'd be like, this is
Speaker 2: a line, and I'd draw some imaginary line down the
Speaker 2: living room. If you cross it, I will beat the
Speaker 2: shit out of you or whatever it was. And we
Speaker 2: were also best friends and both right, but we were
Speaker 2: fighting and calling each other horrible names. And that was
Speaker 2: just the nature of it, right, two girls growing up
Speaker 2: in the same house, and as we got older, no
Speaker 2: one could say anything to me that would get under
Speaker 2: my skin as much as my sister, and I think
Speaker 2: that's I know that that's true for her as well.
Speaker 1: Right, We could really.
Speaker 2: Just just strike a chord with each other anyway. We've
Speaker 2: certainly had our share of fights. We don't really anymore, thankfully,
Speaker 2: But whatever happened, and we didn't speak for a year,
Speaker 2: and I just remember it being as much as I
Speaker 2: tried to deny it, and I would say to my
Speaker 2: mom specifically because she was so torn up about it right,
Speaker 2: and I'm going to die one day and you're not
Speaker 2: going to have each other. And I would say to her,
Speaker 2: I don't miss her, I don't care, I don't like her.
Speaker 2: It's my life is complete and I don't meet her
Speaker 2: in it. And I was lying not only to my mom,
Speaker 2: I was lying to myself because it was just this
Speaker 2: weight that I carried around. And so, probably over a
Speaker 2: year into our quote unquote estrangement, I got a call
Speaker 2: from her I'll never forget it, one morning and crying
Speaker 2: and something had happened and she said, I need my
Speaker 2: sister and that was it done over, never to be
Speaker 2: estranged again.
Speaker 1: That's that's it's amazing. And it makes me sad. I
Speaker 1: know it's sorry. No, no, no, it just makes me sad,
Speaker 1: not not because of my sister specifically, but because of
Speaker 1: the idea that people do find their way past this.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you the very big thing, and this is
Speaker 1: this is the big difference. And this is going to
Speaker 1: sound very harsh, but it's true. Well we do true,
Speaker 1: So go okay. My sister and I don't love each other.
Speaker 1: And it sounds very harsh because we're in the same family,
Speaker 1: but we've never loved each other, like I would she
Speaker 1: say that as well? How she said it? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: she can't stand me, which has to do with the
Speaker 1: idea of me. Listen, I'm not everyone's cup of tea,
Speaker 1: but like, she doesn't even know me. I haven't been
Speaker 1: in a room with her. And how do you think
Speaker 1: she watches the show? I think the first few seasons now, Listen,
Speaker 1: she participated in the first season. I remember that of
Speaker 1: the show, but grudgingly she wouldn't allow so we did
Speaker 1: this scene where we talked on the phone. I remember
Speaker 1: that we used to toy around every once in a
Speaker 1: while with making up, and then it would turn into
Speaker 1: like an explosive meltdown and like everything would just fall apart.
Speaker 1: And I would try. I really did. I would try.
Speaker 1: I know, I know on my end that I tried,
Speaker 1: And maybe that's why I don't feel guilty about anything,
Speaker 1: because I did try. But she wouldn't let them use
Speaker 1: her voice, so it sounded like I was making a
Speaker 1: fake phone call because she didn't want her voice on camera.
Speaker 1: I never wanted her name on camera, didn't want her picture,
Speaker 1: and that's fine, and I had to respect that, and
Speaker 1: you know, it just never went anywhere. Nothing ever went anywhere.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't a big I mean, we've had some big,
Speaker 1: explosive fights, but it wasn't like one penultimate kind of
Speaker 1: that led to an estrangement. It was just always. I mean,
Speaker 1: I do think that my parents made no secret of
Speaker 1: kind of favoring me. When I was younger. I was
Speaker 1: such a tightwad. I wanted to do everything perfectly. I
Speaker 1: graduated sumacom laud from college. I went to a top
Speaker 1: twenty five law school. I landed a huge corporate job.
Speaker 1: You know, I was a mergers and acquisitions attorney, like
Speaker 1: at twenty four years old, killing it.
Speaker 2: And I mean, it's so interesting because I don't want
Speaker 2: to you know, I don't want to head into a
Speaker 2: different direction right now, but like we've got to cover
Speaker 2: that at some point my past life. Like you're a
Speaker 2: housewipe of New Jersey from a merger's acquisitions attorney.
Speaker 1: That was. That was a hoot. That was so I'll
Speaker 1: tell you the story of that one day.
Speaker 3: But I mean, like my mother would like, you know,
Speaker 3: stand on a table and scream, my daughter's a lawyer.
Speaker 1: You know, che is really like you wish mother. She
Speaker 1: was so proud and like that. You know, my sister
Speaker 1: didn't go to college. She wasn't interested, and that's fine too,
Speaker 1: but like she wasn't she didn't have like much of
Speaker 1: a work ethic or drive, And I think it was
Speaker 1: hard to Your parents are so proud of your sibling,
Speaker 1: and yeah, they favor your siblings. And I think she
Speaker 1: always that's kind of hated the idea of me. It
Speaker 1: can't be me because I've never had anything to do
Speaker 1: with her. She doesn't like the idea of me, and
Speaker 1: and that's okay, but it's only did.
Speaker 2: You like her at all? Like did you? I know
Speaker 2: you say you're saying I wanted to. I really wanted
Speaker 2: to about her that you enjoyed.
Speaker 1: Did you ever have fun together? Did you ever together? No?
Speaker 1: We were never together, like a few family vacations growing up,
Speaker 1: And she was very distant from me. She was never
Speaker 1: super social and like really had nothing to do with me.
Speaker 1: Now close do you guys live now? She lives about
Speaker 1: an hour away. Yeah, but I am very close to
Speaker 1: their kids. My mother made sure of that. So her
Speaker 1: kids are much older than my not much older, but
Speaker 1: they're all adults now, so and I adore them and
Speaker 1: they're wonderful kids.
Speaker 2: Wow, And why don't her why don't Why doesn't she
Speaker 2: have relationships with your kids?
Speaker 1: So, my mother was very involved with my sister's kids
Speaker 1: and not as involved with my kids, meaning like she
Speaker 1: lived with my sister and helped her take care of them.
Speaker 1: So she would always bring my sister's kids to my house.
Speaker 1: Got it. My kids and me were not welcome in
Speaker 1: my sister's house, so we never went there. Your sister
Speaker 1: didn't allow your kids in her house. No, we've been
Speaker 1: there like one time. Yeah, here without you. Yeah, they've
Speaker 1: only been there like once, I think, yeah, for a
Speaker 1: July fourth party. I know. But it's okay, Listen, she's
Speaker 1: not She's only shit to me. Other people lover you
Speaker 1: know so, and she is wonderful to my brother. We
Speaker 1: all are. We all take care of my brother. So,
Speaker 1: but you know, it was really only in recent years
Speaker 1: that I was like, you know what, I have to
Speaker 1: be authentic to myself and I don't think this relationship
Speaker 1: is good for me, and I'm not going to try anymore.
Speaker 2: Listen, at the end of the day, I suppose what
Speaker 2: matters is that you're happy and you are Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 1: Don't think about it. On in theaterday. So I'm saying, like,
Speaker 1: it shouldn't you shouldn't. I guess you shouldn't end an
Speaker 1: estrangement because you think that it's weird or if your
Speaker 1: life is full without that person. The person's only, you know,
Speaker 1: bringing you sadness and anger. She doesn't bring me sad
Speaker 1: she worrett touch nothing she brings. She brings nothing. And
Speaker 1: I you know, they have these like, you know, made
Speaker 1: up Facebook holidays where they're like Sister Day, you know,
Speaker 1: and just I'm like, my feet is flooded with people saying,
Speaker 1: oh God, God gives you an angel on earth and
Speaker 1: it's your sister, you know. And I'm always my sister
Speaker 1: and I are not angels on from it.
Speaker 3: But I'll be like reading this shit and I'll be like,
Speaker 3: how come everybody else gets a great sister. I have
Speaker 3: a sister, a half sister. I have actually three half siblings, okay,
Speaker 3: and my half sister is younger than my daughter. And yeah,
Speaker 3: that's what's your relationship podcast. I mean, we don't really
Speaker 3: have one. She I've only met her a few times.
Speaker 3: She lives in another state, and I don't want to
Speaker 3: talk too much about this, but so I don't know her. Well,
Speaker 3: it's it's bizarre.
Speaker 2: And you know, while she was growing up and my
Speaker 2: dad was calling to tell me that she got a
Speaker 2: green belt in karate, I was like, so did your granddaughter?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: So it's it was just strange and only was good
Speaker 2: things for her. It's just it's been is a very
Speaker 2: unique circumstance.
Speaker 1: Does she live close? No, No, she doesn't. You have
Speaker 1: three half siblings. I have three half siblings. Okay, so
Speaker 1: do they all have the same mom?
Speaker 2: Noh, so my sister and I have the same mother
Speaker 2: and father, my old sister whoever you want to say that,
Speaker 2: and the other three half siblings all have the same
Speaker 2: father as I do. Yeah, but you know, I've been
Speaker 2: through periods of estrangement from my father. I've been, as
Speaker 2: I've mentioned before, my one of besides my sister, the
Speaker 2: hardest strangements that I've dealt with has been with a
Speaker 2: cousin and we didn't speak for a year and a half, which,
Speaker 2: again I don't know what that qualifies, but it's for me,
Speaker 2: it felt like that over politics. Really, yes, And I
Speaker 2: look back at it now and I can't believe that
Speaker 2: we got to that point and that was a situation
Speaker 2: like my sister, but with my cousin where it was brutal.
Speaker 2: I missed her every day. You know my sister too.
Speaker 2: But my sister and I were arguing over personal issues
Speaker 2: and I was so this was so we said things
Speaker 2: that were hurtful to each other. And as soon as
Speaker 2: I picked up the phone, it was her birthday, and
Speaker 2: I was just I couldn't do it anymore. I picked
Speaker 2: up the birthday, I picked up the birthday, I picked
Speaker 2: up the phone and I called her on her birthday
Speaker 2: and immediately it was over within two seconds.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, well that's because there was a foundation. Yes,
Speaker 1: there's lots, that's true.
Speaker 2: I guess that's the different And we also people get
Speaker 2: a strange not just for the reason that they were
Speaker 2: never close or that they had a fight. It's because
Speaker 2: relationships are toxic or you know, somebody's abusive, right, And
Speaker 2: it doesn't mean the other person is toxic, it's just
Speaker 2: that relationship that's toxic.
Speaker 1: Now, let me just preface all of this by saying that, like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to take my part out of it.
Speaker 1: I do feel like I've tried over the years, but
Speaker 1: when we have fought, I've also played my part. So
Speaker 1: that's one thing I'm not going to absolve myself. I
Speaker 1: so like I have gotten when we have fought, I
Speaker 1: have gotten nasty myself.
Speaker 2: She listens to the podcast, which sounds she probably doesn't.
Speaker 2: I'm a real fucking softy. So if she does, and
Speaker 2: if she called me, I promise you like our fight
Speaker 2: would end, it will never happen. It will never happen.
Speaker 2: I've been It's been forty years of like efforts and
Speaker 2: like nothing. I don't even know that I wanted anymore.
Speaker 2: But is she called, she will But if she did,
Speaker 2: if she did, yeah, but she's not going to I
Speaker 2: guess never going to happen. I just I think it's
Speaker 2: interesting and I do you know, it's so funny in
Speaker 2: the past few years. I know, I talk about recovery
Speaker 2: a lot, but like my mindset on a lot of
Speaker 2: things has changed. I know a lot of people we're
Speaker 2: not going to talk about the show. A lot of
Speaker 2: people think that I have very like different reasons for
Speaker 2: my relationships shifting. It's really that I'm in a place
Speaker 2: where I know what feels good to me and what doesn't,
Speaker 2: and I don't care what anyone else thinks. I'm going
Speaker 2: to do what authentically feels good for me. If you
Speaker 2: want to.
Speaker 1: Assign different reasons to it, that's fine. That's what these
Speaker 1: shows are for, so that people can have an opinion
Speaker 1: and talk about it. Right But I know that I
Speaker 1: am doing things that feel authentically good to me, and
Speaker 1: right now, I'm not interested in trying anymore, which is
Speaker 1: very hard because, like I said, society tells you family
Speaker 1: over everything. It's different also your relationships on the show,
Speaker 1: they're friendships, and there's a big difference. It feels very
Speaker 1: different from me when I've been a strange from friends,
Speaker 1: and I am a strange from friends, not many of them,
Speaker 1: but a couple in terms of my life, as opposed
Speaker 1: to being a strange from family and the estrangements I've
Speaker 1: had from family. It's they've played on me, right, They're
Speaker 1: like always with me. It's like even when everything feels great,
Speaker 1: there's a loss. When everything feels there's a loss.
Speaker 2: And I don't know if that is about blood, and
Speaker 2: I don't think that everyone feels that way. I think
Speaker 2: there's there are abusive family relationships that people are not
Speaker 2: only smart to get rid of, but also feel probably
Speaker 2: simply relief, but the relationships that I've had in terms
Speaker 2: of friendships that are now estranged, they don't play on me,
Speaker 2: you know. There of course, there might be moments of
Speaker 2: sadness or moments of anger, or moments of you know,
Speaker 2: sentimentality looking back. But the family, the family ones, they
Speaker 2: were just with me. I felt it all the time,
Speaker 2: different from you and your sister.
Speaker 1: Right because because I said, like the foundation that was there.
Speaker 1: But then I look at the other relationships in my life,
Speaker 1: in my family, it's the only one. So like say,
Speaker 1: like on our show, there's many many estrangements, and like
Speaker 1: if you are estranged from everyone in your family and
Speaker 1: everyone in your spouse's family, then maybe it's you with me.
Speaker 1: I couldn't be closer to my mother like we are.
Speaker 1: We love each other so much. I couldn't be closer
Speaker 1: to my father. I adore him. They have their faults,
Speaker 1: so do I.
Speaker 2: But why don't the anybody thinks that it looks at
Speaker 2: an estrange when it thinks it's your fault. There's it
Speaker 2: takes two to tango, Like I don't, yeah, I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't, you know. I wouldn't think to myself, well,
Speaker 2: there's something wrong with Jackie you know clearly there's something wrong, you.
Speaker 1: Know, you really do because of this message that society
Speaker 1: tells you. So but what would you so, What's what's
Speaker 1: your take on the never give up messaging? You know, like,
Speaker 1: at a certain point do you give up?
Speaker 2: Well, so, when my sister and I didn't speak, my
Speaker 2: mother certainly did not give up. So it sounds like
Speaker 2: your parents have resolved the recently.
Speaker 1: Yes, For many, many years, they would tell me Jackie,
Speaker 1: just apologized to her and let it be over. And
Speaker 1: I'd say, first of all, I don't even know what
Speaker 1: I'm apologizing for. But second of all, it won't be
Speaker 1: over because tomorrow there'll be something new that I have
Speaker 1: to apologize for. So I don't. I don't know what
Speaker 1: you are, what you expect to happen, you know, I don't,
Speaker 1: But I feel bad. I feel sad for them.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't. I don't think that every family estrangement
Speaker 2: should be resolved. I don't think that just because it's
Speaker 2: blood you should absolutely fix it.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I don't think that life is short and if it
Speaker 2: is taking away from the quality of your life and
Speaker 2: you know, causing heartbreak, then better off estranged, Right, I
Speaker 2: would if my kids, let's say were estranged. They ever
Speaker 2: are a strange It would absolutely break my heart. And
Speaker 2: I don't see a scenario where I wouldn't keep trying
Speaker 2: to fix it.
Speaker 1: I guess that's that's the thing I can't imagine. So
Speaker 1: my four children are well, they're very close in age.
Speaker 1: I had four kids under the age of three. I
Speaker 1: fear in diapers in my house. That's that's another episode. Wow.
Speaker 1: But they're all very close now granted they're all teenagers now,
Speaker 1: they all have their own lives, but they love each
Speaker 1: other so much. And I can't imagine how hard it
Speaker 1: must be to watch your children completely split off from
Speaker 1: each other. But at the same time, my sister has
Speaker 1: a beautiful life. She has four healthy, smart children. She's
Speaker 1: married to the same person since nineteen ninety eight. Like,
Speaker 1: she's she's fine, you know, she's I don't know if
Speaker 1: she's happy. I have nothing to do with her, but
Speaker 1: she seems fine. Yeah, I don't feel sad for her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: feels sad for her parents.
Speaker 2: There was a time this is like his were never estranged.
Speaker 2: They're very very close. But I remember they were young
Speaker 2: and Rachel said something nasty to my son and actually
Speaker 2: it's funny because he took this bottle of saracha sauce
Speaker 2: and he pounded. He was so frustrated because growing up,
Speaker 2: Rachel was just a terror and my son Zach was
Speaker 2: just always sweet and easy. But we were all just
Speaker 2: like we'd say, we'd like tiptoe around Rachel. She grew
Speaker 2: up and she's way different now and we laugh about it.
Speaker 2: But so she was just or she was just would
Speaker 2: just torment him. And he took this bottle of sarracha
Speaker 2: and he slammed it on the kitchen table and I
Speaker 2: got all over the ceiling and he ran outside. He
Speaker 2: was so upset, and I of course ran after him
Speaker 2: and he was crying. He's like, Mom, I'm not crying
Speaker 2: because I care for me. I care for you because
Speaker 2: I'm just letting you know right now that when I
Speaker 2: grow up, I'm never speaking to her again. And I
Speaker 2: feel better. I feel that he's so cute. So he
Speaker 2: was always like so like sort of sensitive like that.
Speaker 2: And we left the sarracha on for years on the ceiling,
Speaker 2: Yes we did, and.
Speaker 1: Not in this house. Yes, in this house we had it.
Speaker 2: I mean in the kitchen painted I don't know, like
Speaker 2: three years ago maybe we've been here for thirteen I
Speaker 2: don't know, but I don't know what we were trying.
Speaker 2: Why we left it was from what it symbolized exactly,
Speaker 2: but we almost just laughed about it.
Speaker 1: You would look at it. Yeah, in my old thought,
Speaker 1: this is totally off topic. But in my old house.
Speaker 1: We moved to one house in ten a flight before
Speaker 1: we moved to our new house, but we had a
Speaker 1: really like a double length ceiling whatever you call it
Speaker 1: when you walk in, and we took our kids when
Speaker 1: they were like a year old to see Sesame Street
Speaker 1: live and they brought home an Elma balloon and it
Speaker 1: floated up to the.
Speaker 3: Top and we left it there for years because what
Speaker 3: we were going to do right, But every time we'd
Speaker 3: look at.
Speaker 1: It, we just laughed. We've been there for so long,
Speaker 1: and like no one even noticed it.
Speaker 3: But when people did, they'd be like, you know, you
Speaker 3: have an elbow out there because it's a beautiful house.
Speaker 1: And then like a big floating at holmohad pies of
Speaker 1: heliing some good alia it did. It just stayed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we left it up there and laughed about it,
Speaker 2: and you know, I knew it was coming from a
Speaker 2: child's perspective obviously, but picturing it now, I just it
Speaker 2: would break my heart. And I think there's just also
Speaker 2: something about, Okay, now we're going to get a little deep,
Speaker 2: but mortality, right, And I think for parents thinking about yea,
Speaker 2: their mortality, like if I can't, it'd be hard for
Speaker 2: me to picture a world that I'm not in and
Speaker 2: that where my kids weren't bonded.
Speaker 1: Ye know. I mean my sister has a nice relationship
Speaker 1: with my parents too. They've just stopped trying to bring
Speaker 1: us together because I think they realized it was feudial.
Speaker 1: But here's where the mortality piece comes in. For me,
Speaker 1: it's not my own mortality, it's that I don't want
Speaker 1: that reconnect. If we ever are going to reconnect, I
Speaker 1: don't want it to be at one of our parents' deathbeds.
Speaker 1: God forbid. I don't want that to be the moment
Speaker 1: because if we are going to come back together with
Speaker 1: my parents to experience it right, Because.
Speaker 2: Okay, so again I'm not I'm not a shrink, and
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know really the intricate details of
Speaker 2: you and your sister, but thinking feeling that way like
Speaker 2: you would make them so happy, just for that reason.
Speaker 1: Is there a part of you that we're going to
Speaker 1: end in podcast. You're going to pick up the phone.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to pick up so many times. And
Speaker 1: I will tell you honestly, there's no interest on her
Speaker 1: part the way that I am. Jen. I am so
Speaker 1: open to always reconciling unless you've done something to me
Speaker 1: that is so unbelievably painful that I can't move past it. Then,
Speaker 1: like you've you've I can't even explain unless you've done
Speaker 1: something to me that's so unbelievably hurtful, I can really
Speaker 1: move past things. I'm good at that I'm good at,
Speaker 1: not just sweeping it under the rug.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't sound like though with you and your sister,
Speaker 2: it's been anything specifically one like one thing that was
Speaker 2: so painful. It's more just a lifetime of.
Speaker 1: Miss there's nothing there. It's like telling me, like, if
Speaker 1: you want to reconcile with my neighbor Sue, and I
Speaker 1: don't know your neighbor Sue. You know, that's what it
Speaker 1: feels like to me. I don't know her, which is
Speaker 1: weird because we share the same parents. I don't know her,
Speaker 1: So would I reconcile with her? Yeah? I would, but
Speaker 1: it's not because I love her and miss her. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know that's the difference. I don't love and miss
Speaker 1: her because I don't know her. It's more so that
Speaker 1: this piece of me that feels like there is I
Speaker 1: have a sister in the world and I don't know her.
Speaker 1: That feels that's always going to feel strange to me.
Speaker 1: Whether or not. It's not really about like losing a
Speaker 1: loved one, like not losing a loved one, but like
Speaker 1: losing a relationship, a loving relationship. That's not it. It's
Speaker 1: that I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of having a
Speaker 1: sister and having no relationship with her, even if I
Speaker 1: never did.
Speaker 2: What about family members relationships that are toxic and but
Speaker 2: you make the decision to keep that relationship or keep
Speaker 2: the person in your life. And you always hear about
Speaker 2: the difficulty right of like things giving or you know, family,
Speaker 2: big family get togethers, and what's healthy there. We probably
Speaker 2: should have had a we can doctor on and we
Speaker 2: can what.
Speaker 1: I think is healthy there, maybe not estrangement, but space.
Speaker 1: You know, you come together at certain holidays, but like
Speaker 1: even take the holidays. Let's say you say that Thanksgiving
Speaker 1: is no fun when Uncle John comes, like it's torture
Speaker 1: and he criticizes. You know, I've had people in my
Speaker 1: past who would come and you know, point out the
Speaker 1: flaws in my weight over the years, and I was
Speaker 1: so uncomfortable with them. But you can't can't cut off family.
Speaker 1: My parents never cut people out, you know, even if
Speaker 1: they were disasters, you know, because and.
Speaker 2: They probably they probably does kill them. I mean, do
Speaker 2: they talk to you about you and your sister? They
Speaker 2: just completely you said they gave up.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they gave up. They gave up a few
Speaker 1: years ago. They realized both of us have full lives
Speaker 1: without each other in it, and they have They've gotten
Speaker 1: used to it. Listen, there are worse things than not
Speaker 1: having your all your kids in the same room at
Speaker 1: the same time. Yeah, yeah, of course it sucks, but
Speaker 1: they also have very full lives. They see her. This
Speaker 1: is why so we for many years, Evan and I
Speaker 1: would we would alternate holidays because my parents would go
Speaker 1: to her one year and they would come to me
Speaker 1: one year. So in the off years we go to
Speaker 1: his parents, you know, so because he's also got siblings,
Speaker 1: a sister, and she lives in the city, so like
Speaker 1: it wasn't always like everyone could be at one place.
Speaker 1: In recent years, everythingsgiving has been at my house because
Speaker 1: our parents are all older now, no one wants to
Speaker 1: cook and host and everything, right, So I'm happy to
Speaker 1: have it at my home. But you know, for we're
Speaker 1: never together for holidays, So yeah, it's so I'm just
Speaker 1: thinking about you know, we talked about doing this today's episode,
Speaker 1: and talk were really started out just talking about family
Speaker 1: and family dynamic and not just estrangement, but the difficulty
Speaker 1: sometimes of having family members that you don't relationships that
Speaker 1: you don't drive any joy from, right, and had to
Speaker 1: kind of handle that and still the wanting to maintain
Speaker 1: some kind of relationship. I can't say that. I well,
Speaker 1: you know, my relationship relationships with my parents have changed
Speaker 1: so much over the years, right, And I come from
Speaker 1: family that's been divorced. My father it was divorced three times.
Speaker 1: My mom's my mom, they divorced when we were really
Speaker 1: really young, and then my mom remarried and her husband
Speaker 1: died and there was another one. So it's been a
Speaker 1: lot of divorce. And my relationship with my parents today
Speaker 1: is so different than it was. There are times times
Speaker 1: where I didn't speak to my father, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: I do say to him now because we're in a
Speaker 1: much better place. As I've gotten older, it's gotten, you know,
Speaker 1: way better. But he made a lot of mistakes. I
Speaker 1: was a kid, so I'm not going to take too
Speaker 1: much responsibility for that. And he would say to me,
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't have any I didn't have any
Speaker 1: frame of reference. My father was a horrible father.
Speaker 2: And so you know, as we as I got older,
Speaker 2: there were times where I would just cut him out right,
Speaker 2: or maybe he would cut me out. But now I'm
Speaker 2: fifty five years old and my father's eighty two years old,
Speaker 2: and there have been lots of there's been lots of reflection,
Speaker 2: there's been lots of apology, and I'd rather have him
Speaker 2: in my life than not. Yes, And you know, I
Speaker 2: say too, I talked about this in there a lot
Speaker 2: that I don't want regret and I don't want my
Speaker 2: father to one day, a million years from now pass
Speaker 2: away and feel like there was more I would have
Speaker 2: wanted to say, or I would have wanted to have
Speaker 2: more a more loving relationship with him, And we've been
Speaker 2: through it. Let me assure you that in terms of
Speaker 2: my childhood I've been through it again. That's for another episode.
Speaker 2: But as I've gotten older, I prefer to have, you know,
Speaker 2: my father in my life, and I do love him,
Speaker 2: and I know that he loves me, and he has
Speaker 2: reflected on his life and is very open to seeing
Speaker 2: the reality of what it was. When we were younger,
Speaker 2: my mom had it really really difficult. She you know,
Speaker 2: she was a single mom for while before she got remarried.
Speaker 2: She had very difficult marriages. We had very difficult stepfathers,
Speaker 2: and for that matter, we had a stepmother. It wasn't
Speaker 2: great there.
Speaker 1: Anyway. Wow, I think, are you in touch with any
Speaker 1: of your stepfathers? No? No, on one? Now? Oh your
Speaker 1: mom is married now? Yeah, okay, yeah, and he is
Speaker 1: the best. Oh, I love that. See. But also your
Speaker 1: father is trying, like he realizes mistakes that he made
Speaker 1: when he was younger, and he's trying. And that's that's
Speaker 1: a big piece of it.
Speaker 2: My mom, you know, in our relationship there was we
Speaker 2: really had like a come to Jesus and I didn't
Speaker 2: want to pretend anymore like my childhood was okay, And
Speaker 2: it was really hard at the beginning of that conversation
Speaker 2: and the conversation lasted probably a couple of years. But
Speaker 2: you know, my mom is who dealt with so much,
Speaker 2: and I look at our lives together and think about
Speaker 2: what she had to overcome and how difficult it was
Speaker 2: for her. But now you know, we got through it,
Speaker 2: and she she really, you know, said she's made her
Speaker 2: amends to me, as I will have to make to
Speaker 2: my children because I know that I have. I like
Speaker 2: to think of myself as the perfect mother, but I guess.
Speaker 1: What I wasn't. Really, what do you think you did?
Speaker 1: I know I wasn't and I know that you weren't,
Speaker 1: and I know what I did that I think is
Speaker 1: like horrific is the things that I showed my children,
Speaker 1: The way that you treat yourself and the way that
Speaker 1: you starve yourself. I can't undo these things that I've shown,
Speaker 1: and I know it sounds very vague right now, but
Speaker 1: the habits that I displayed in front of my children
Speaker 1: are horrific. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, again, I am uber aware that not there's not
Speaker 2: a parent out there that's perfect, no matter what you
Speaker 2: see on social media, and my mom was imperfect. Now
Speaker 2: our relationship is such that I cry every time I
Speaker 2: leave her. She's only lose a long island, but I
Speaker 2: just want to be with her all the time. There
Speaker 2: is nothing more comforting to me than just holding our hand.
Speaker 2: I'm going to get choked up. And there have been
Speaker 2: times where our relationship was not good, but yeah.
Speaker 1: Mine too, but like great now, And I think a
Speaker 1: big piece of that is understanding. You know, when I
Speaker 1: was younger, I would make rash decisions and I would
Speaker 1: assume people's intentions and a lot of that, A lot
Speaker 1: of therapy has helped me to really see things from
Speaker 1: other people's perspective. So, for example, and this will sound shocking,
Speaker 1: but my mother still hasn't read my book. She read
Speaker 1: the first few chapters and then stopped. This was too
Speaker 1: painful for her. Well, I kept saying to her at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the you know, when I first came out,
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, insulting it is to me
Speaker 1: that you haven't read it, and she'd be like, I'm
Speaker 1: going to read it. I'm going to read it. And
Speaker 1: then I think, after like six months, I said to her,
Speaker 1: I can't believe you still haven't read it, and she said, Jackie,
Speaker 1: it's hard for me. It's hard for me to like
Speaker 1: read this stuff that you did for yourself, And I said,
Speaker 1: you know what, enough said, don't do anything that you
Speaker 1: don't want to do. Like I understand, I understand, and
Speaker 1: like I just because I can see things now, I'm
Speaker 1: mature enough to see things from other people's perspectives, I understand.
Speaker 1: Is it insulting now, No, because I get it, Like
Speaker 1: I don't know that I could read a story about
Speaker 1: my daughter like almost killing yourself, you know, So I
Speaker 1: just you know, there is this like piece of me
Speaker 1: that will always feel there is and it's not my sister.
Speaker 1: It's the idea of my sister, an emptiness because of
Speaker 1: what it could have been, and it isn't. But like
Speaker 1: I said, I just don't want it to like re.
Speaker 1: I don't want it to like for our relationship to
Speaker 1: start on a parent's stepbed. I hope that's not the case.
Speaker 1: I either wanted to never happen or I want it
Speaker 1: to happen so that my parents can see it and
Speaker 1: enjoy it for fear, But you know, I don't. It
Speaker 1: doesn't play into my everyday life. It plays in on
Speaker 1: these stupid like holidays. And I have unfortunate I have
Speaker 1: very close college girlfriends. One in particular, her name is Ali,
Speaker 1: and she is like she is the closest thing I
Speaker 1: have to a sister, but it's not a sister. It's
Speaker 1: not you know, it doesn't replace a sister. And I
Speaker 1: have very close friends and tenify I just like nothing
Speaker 1: replaces that relationship.
Speaker 2: You know that well, you know for me because my
Speaker 2: sister and I had it. We didn't have an easy childhood,
Speaker 2: but there's this one experience that we had that we
Speaker 2: always for and this was by far not the even
Speaker 2: remotely the hardest thing that we went through. But we
Speaker 2: would leave, we would go to visit my father and
Speaker 2: get on the plane. So my mom we moved to
Speaker 2: Texas when I was nine years old, So we'd get
Speaker 2: on the plane to go back to Texas and we
Speaker 2: would both be crying, and I would just hold my
Speaker 2: sister on the plane and like she was, you know,
Speaker 2: she's only fourteen months younger than I am, on your
Speaker 2: way to Texas or because because a lot of reasons,
Speaker 2: but we you know, he was as much as he
Speaker 2: was not. It wasn't great, but it was still our
Speaker 2: father and it was still we had a lot going on,
Speaker 2: and so but I would just hold her like she
Speaker 2: was my little girl, and we talk about it, not
Speaker 2: a lot, but we talk about it to this day
Speaker 2: as no one can understand that but us, do you
Speaker 2: know what I mean?
Speaker 1: Like that's.
Speaker 2: No one will understand all of it, like Robin does,
Speaker 2: like my sister doesn't. And not just the bad, right,
Speaker 2: but the good. No one, That relationship is not replaceable, right.
Speaker 1: And that's why I say like there is something to
Speaker 1: the friends who are family. I strongly feel that with
Speaker 1: some of my friends, like I could tell them anything,
Speaker 1: I could be anywhere with them, right, But I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think anything actually replaces family. But it's okay.
Speaker 1: I mean not everything in life is going to be perfect,
Speaker 1: and that's all right. And this is one relationship I
Speaker 1: don't get to have well, and I'm okay with it.
Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of times it's better
Speaker 1: to be estranged. You know, they didn't. And for anyone
Speaker 1: out there who has a toxic family member in your
Speaker 1: life that you are strange. From my take, it is
Speaker 1: okay me to protect your peace and forget what everyone
Speaker 1: says about how you never give up on family and
Speaker 1: you always have to keep trying if that is toxic
Speaker 1: for you, and you feel that authentically in your heart,
Speaker 1: let it go.
Speaker 2: Every Listen. I think every case is different, right, and
Speaker 2: I think there are certainly, certainly many many cases where
Speaker 2: I would advise someone I love if something was toxic
Speaker 2: or if a family member was hurting them obviously to
Speaker 2: rid them right or get rid of that relationship. So
Speaker 2: it's more difficult, I think sometimes with family, but sometimes
Speaker 2: it is necessary. And we are not experts, so you know,
Speaker 2: I don't really have I can just we can only
Speaker 2: share our own experience, strength, hope and you know what
Speaker 2: we've been through. But I would never feel I would
Speaker 2: never look down on somebody that is strange, like I
Speaker 2: don't in.
Speaker 1: Your sister, Yeah, judge that. And like I said, she's
Speaker 1: not bad to other people. We just she's just it's
Speaker 1: not that she's even bad to me, Like he's also
Speaker 1: that you don't miss her.
Speaker 2: It's not ye, I don't want when it's the idea right,
Speaker 2: when I'm not strange from family members, I it was
Speaker 2: it was just it was on me. It was this
Speaker 2: cloud that followed me. It wasn't easy, and it wasn't
Speaker 2: it didn't feel like I was complete.
Speaker 1: Yeah, can I tell you something that I do struggle
Speaker 1: with them? I struggle with whether or not my kids
Speaker 1: should refer to her as their aunt, because I know
Speaker 1: that sounds harsh, but I don't want them to feel
Speaker 1: like they have an aunt in their lives that they
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't want them to feel like they're
Speaker 1: missing something. So I have them call her by her
Speaker 1: first name, if and when they ever refer to her,
Speaker 1: because my parents sometimes refer to her, and they're close
Speaker 1: with their cousins, so I refer to her, and so
Speaker 1: I have them not call her aunt, but my mother
Speaker 1: refers to her as aunt. So it's very strange because
Speaker 1: I don't want my kids to feel like they're missing something,
Speaker 1: and they don't, but I don't want it to be
Speaker 1: awkward for them to feel like they haven't it. This
Speaker 1: is just me getting you know, psychobabble whatever. But do
Speaker 1: you think that's in part because it would be just
Speaker 1: painful for you to hear that. No. I think it's
Speaker 1: because I don't want my children to feel like they're
Speaker 1: missing a relationship in their life. I don't want them
Speaker 1: to feel like it's on them. You don't want them
Speaker 1: to feel like they're missing a relationship too. I would think,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? I mean that, like hearing them
Speaker 1: say aunt would also bring themselves.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's also like I don't want them to
Speaker 1: feel like it's on them to fix you know, if
Speaker 1: she's just the first name, then she's just a person.
Speaker 1: But if she's an aunt, there's something about that blood
Speaker 1: tie that makes you feel like you should be doing
Speaker 1: something more. Have you ever done any of these twenty
Speaker 1: three and me ancestry dot com. No.
Speaker 2: My friend Iris bought me one once, and I don't
Speaker 2: know why I never sent it in. I think because
Speaker 2: it was like a big brother's looking or something, you
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like they say, don't do What
Speaker 2: is the other one that you can do with twenty
Speaker 2: three and me? Is that twenty three of me where
Speaker 2: you can tell, like all the details of your past
Speaker 2: and where you're from.
Speaker 1: And I think so. But anyway, I know I've avoided them. Okay,
Speaker 1: I've avoided them because I don't think I want to know.
Speaker 1: I think that I'm I think you can only bring
Speaker 1: you know. I've read the pros and cons of discovering
Speaker 1: new family members, and I'm not so sure that I
Speaker 1: want to Why I think I am. I've experienced a
Speaker 1: lot with the sister thing, right, It's something that had
Speaker 1: been on my mind for a very long time. And
Speaker 1: I think I'm so content with the other relationships in
Speaker 1: my family right now that I don't I don't want
Speaker 1: to introduce something that could potentially muddy the water. Interesting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that definitely wasn't why I didn't didn't send that kid. Oh, so,
Speaker 1: like if I discovered that I have a half sibling, Like,
Speaker 1: do I want to know how that happened? Because my
Speaker 1: parents have been married for a very long time. I go,
Speaker 1: I almost don't want to know. That's interesting. You know.
Speaker 1: Does it tell you if you have a half sibling?
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think so.
Speaker 2: Or does it just tell you? I thought I just
Speaker 2: told your history. I think of an ancestry.
Speaker 1: I think I've had friends who told me they discovered
Speaker 1: a first cousin. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you know for
Speaker 1: me that you say it wrong. Let me know if
Speaker 1: I'm wrong.
Speaker 2: You know, I even now as I'm getting older. And
Speaker 2: this might sound a little disingenuous, because I did get
Speaker 2: on a show called, I don't know if you've heard
Speaker 2: of it, The Real Housewives. I'm not trasy, and it's
Speaker 2: about it has been about making new friends and new
Speaker 2: relationships and all of that, and and maybe not so much.
Speaker 2: But anyway, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 2: I'm not as open to new even new friendships as
Speaker 2: I used to be, and I don't really I'm not
Speaker 2: really looking for that many new relationships. And certainly if
Speaker 2: it's a new family member, I probably I would never
Speaker 2: reject anyone, but I'm out looking for that. I don't
Speaker 2: know that I want more ties.
Speaker 1: Is that I think that's what it is with me too.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want more blood relationships that might
Speaker 1: not pan out in a good way. Yeah, I don't really.
Speaker 1: So if you're listening and you think we maybe related,
Speaker 1: lose my number. How you have it? But you know,
Speaker 1: I do. I do look at my children and I think,
Speaker 1: you know, and then I think to myself, you know,
Speaker 1: for a long time, I actually blamed my parents. I was.
Speaker 1: I was more of a hothead in my like thirties,
Speaker 1: and I used to say to them, God, if it
Speaker 1: was me, I would have put me and my sister
Speaker 1: together in a room and fucking tied her hands together
Speaker 1: and said, you're not leaving this room until you guys
Speaker 1: find a way to love each other. And I just
Speaker 1: I think it was a different relationship in a different
Speaker 1: childhood at a different time than it is with my kids.
Speaker 1: Because that's what I would do with my kids now,
Speaker 1: if they were ever at the point of not speaking
Speaker 1: to each other for a significant period of time, I
Speaker 1: would put them in a room together and be like,
Speaker 1: you are going to figure this out. There is no
Speaker 1: way this is happening in our family. But my family
Speaker 1: was different. My family was different. Growing up. My parents
Speaker 1: worked full time at a disabled brother. Like I said,
Speaker 1: they had a lot of issues. We had my grandparents
Speaker 1: living with us. My grandfather had dementia, my grandmother had
Speaker 1: pancreatic cancer. Like it was a lot going on, and
Speaker 1: no one had time for the shit fights between me
Speaker 1: and my sister. What about this scenario. What about when
Speaker 1: let's say our kids one day, if they decide to
Speaker 1: get married and something happens with your daughter in law
Speaker 1: or your son in law and you or you know,
Speaker 1: I think about there's you always hear about that. That's
Speaker 1: such a statistic.
Speaker 2: It's such a difficult relationship, that in law relationship. I
Speaker 2: was very lucky. I got a mother in law and
Speaker 2: a father in law who unfortunately aren't here anymore, but
Speaker 2: who were just wonderful in every single way. But you
Speaker 2: hear all the time about that relationship and how difficult
Speaker 2: it is, and then you see relationships and brothers and
Speaker 2: sisters and mothers and sons and daughters and being torn apart, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and that must be.
Speaker 1: Just a bit. That must be I like you, I'm
Speaker 1: so fortunate. I love my mother and father in law
Speaker 1: so much. They're really I mean, my mother in law
Speaker 1: is amazing, my father in law is like the warmest
Speaker 1: person that you can imagine, and my parents are very
Speaker 1: good to my husband. So I don't have to deal
Speaker 1: with it in my life. And I would hope that
Speaker 1: you know, despite what you see it you see things
Speaker 1: on the show, I really am very open to always
Speaker 1: trying to work things out with people. No relationship or
Speaker 1: friendship has ever closed off to me unless you really
Speaker 1: do something horrific. So I'm hoping that having that mindset
Speaker 1: keeps that from ever happening. Now, if my son marries
Speaker 1: an asshole, or even with that, let's say, let's.
Speaker 2: Say that your son marries an asshole, and so you
Speaker 2: stop speaking to each other, and for whatever reason, his
Speaker 2: wife hates your guts or you hate whatever it is,
Speaker 2: do you as the mother, Do you ever give up?
Speaker 2: Do you always keep trying to?
Speaker 1: Do? You know your children?
Speaker 2: I can't, I can't, I know, but it happens. It
Speaker 2: happens as a very complicated difference. So or imagine that,
Speaker 2: you know, like one of us, I didn't like or
Speaker 2: my father in law and it was so bad that
Speaker 2: I didn't want anything to do with him or didn't
Speaker 2: want him to have anything to do with my children.
Speaker 2: And my husband is put in that position of having
Speaker 2: to use right in a way. That's a tough line.
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know what I'm marry. Lucky me
Speaker 2: to have avoided that, but yeah, and I think as
Speaker 2: a I don't know because I don't have grandchildren, and
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what the future holds. I
Speaker 2: would think that no matter what, my kids ain't getting
Speaker 2: away from me, like no matter what.
Speaker 1: No matter I think. And this is going to sound
Speaker 1: a little but that might be naive, veryo typical, but
Speaker 1: I think your son, you obviously have to let them
Speaker 1: love their wife more and that man, I.
Speaker 2: Don't know how I'm going to be differently, you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know how that's going to feel, but I
Speaker 2: I hope that I wouldn't need if it meant that
Speaker 2: I had to bend, and you know, I had, and
Speaker 2: I think as you get older that's harder and harder,
Speaker 2: but change some things and just boundaries. I would hope
Speaker 2: that I would do anything and everything right. Like being
Speaker 2: a strange from your kid has got to just be
Speaker 2: a bitch.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't even want to think about that. But
Speaker 1: I also don't want to be up my kids' assholes,
Speaker 1: like when they're when they have their own families. I
Speaker 1: don't want to live with them and raise their children.
Speaker 1: I want to obviously be so super close, but I
Speaker 1: want to spend my fourth quarter traveling. I missed out
Speaker 1: on a lot because of my illness, and I want
Speaker 1: to spend my fourth quarter traveling and having you know,
Speaker 1: I just you know, doing living my life.
Speaker 2: That's another We've done an episode about this, but I
Speaker 2: think that that's so huge. Like my mom to this day,
Speaker 2: she runs and I'm not even exaggerating, it's like sounds ridiculous,
Speaker 2: but she runs five miles or she swims one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty laps. Then she goes and she plays maaj on.
Speaker 2: She was taking current affairs classes and not just that
Speaker 2: she is. She was never she was always busy, Like,
Speaker 2: she wasn't just doting all the time.
Speaker 1: She had a life.
Speaker 2: And she used to say to me when I would
Speaker 2: get pissed because she didn't do something for me, for
Speaker 2: I got a life.
Speaker 1: I was also a very present grandmother. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: my kids were. See my mother is like right, like
Speaker 1: raised my sister's kids with her. I like the most,
Speaker 1: like she would live at my house with me. But
Speaker 1: I'm not that person. I adore my mother. We've had
Speaker 1: our tough times, but I adore my mother, and my
Speaker 1: kids love her so much. They love both my parents
Speaker 1: so much. But I won't be the grandparent who's always now.
Speaker 2: My mother was not like. She wasn't my go to babysitter.
Speaker 2: First of all, she lived on Long Island and there's
Speaker 2: a lot of Jeff Fesster. I lived in New Jersey.
Speaker 2: I just kidding, just kidding, love New Jersey. But anyway,
Speaker 2: so she couldn't right. But she was also busy, you know,
Speaker 2: and to this day is busy. And I think as
Speaker 2: a result of that, happier. I think maybe I'm wrong,
Speaker 2: Maybe those maybe there are those relationships, and maybe as
Speaker 2: I get older, I'll be happier, you know, living for
Speaker 2: my grandkids. But I kind of think I'm going to
Speaker 2: take my mom's lead.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're going to be traveling the world with me. Yes,
Speaker 1: we have lots of places to go.
Speaker 2: That is also I mean, that's that's the hope, right,
Speaker 2: that's the fourth quarter hope, and not just that I'm
Speaker 2: just traveling the world.
Speaker 1: But just you know, by the way, we're not on
Speaker 1: the fourth quarter. We're not. I was about to say
Speaker 1: that's the fourth quarter. No, I think fourth quarter. People
Speaker 1: are living longer now, so I think, like, if you
Speaker 1: live till what eighty five ninety, fourth quarter is not
Speaker 1: until like late sixties. So let's thank it's just Russia. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're not rushing it. I'm sorry. Maybe I meant the
Speaker 1: you know, the back What does Evan say? He refers
Speaker 1: to everything in golf terms? Back nine. I won't understand
Speaker 1: any of that. Yeah, that's one thing I won't be
Speaker 1: doing in my third or fourth course. No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: you want to know just a quick story. When I
Speaker 1: was looking for jobs and I was in law school
Speaker 1: and my father is a very like different time. You know.
Speaker 1: This was in the nineties. I graduated law school in
Speaker 1: O one. But I was looking for jobs in like
Speaker 1: two thousand and I had very strong grades. I had
Speaker 1: a lot of great interviews. Law firms lined up, and
Speaker 1: my father took me aside, and you said, I want
Speaker 1: you to take a few golf lessons, because when you're
Speaker 1: sitting down for an interview, I want you to be
Speaker 1: able to talk about golf with the partners. So did
Speaker 1: my grandparents.
Speaker 2: They said all the time, you have to either golf
Speaker 2: or tennis, neither. But so they would harp on me
Speaker 2: about it, and I was like, no, thanks to it.
Speaker 1: Right, not my father, but just like the world that
Speaker 1: you have to know about golf to impress a male partner.
Speaker 2: And also right, I think that was probably I was single,
Speaker 2: but also they just thought that was the way to
Speaker 2: meet people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, without I took a few golf lessons, and
Speaker 1: I'm not ashamed to say that I think it's the
Speaker 1: most boring sport in the whole world. And I haven't
Speaker 1: sell attraction. I do t I do like tennis.
Speaker 2: No, I have no interest, although sometimes I think pickleball
Speaker 2: sounds like and not that it sounds appealing to me,
Speaker 2: but because so many people love it and because you
Speaker 2: don't apparently need a lot of athletic ability.
Speaker 1: Who knows, I don't know anything about pickle well, but
Speaker 1: let me wrap by saying this, I think you're very
Speaker 1: lucky because I think I've met your mother and I've
Speaker 1: met your sister many times, and your sister is wonderful.
Speaker 1: And I'm you know, even though it's more the idea
Speaker 1: of my of us sister, I'm there's a piece of
Speaker 1: me that is jealous and that does get sad on
Speaker 1: like sister holidays. And I don't even know what I
Speaker 1: would say to my sister if she's listening. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm always I'm not going to reach out and try, really,
Speaker 1: but I'm always open to coming back, not even coming
Speaker 1: back together because we never were together. But I know
Speaker 1: you're not sad about it. But even I'm getting choked
Speaker 1: up just yeah, I mean, because it does. It does
Speaker 1: feel like avoid avoid of the idea of it, but
Speaker 1: not avoid of the actual person. But I don't know.
Speaker 1: I'm sometimes curious if there would be something there because
Speaker 1: we are blood. But you know, it's not like something's
Speaker 1: missing in my life. It's the idea of it that's missing.
Speaker 1: But that being said, you know they're they're very nuanced.
Speaker 1: The family estrangements very nuanced. It's never an easy like
Speaker 1: this is what happened, and this is why. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's always a million sides to the story,
Speaker 1: but you know it's hard for anyone going through it,
Speaker 1: no matter how long you've been estranged. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, uh, I guess we sum it up by saying,
Speaker 2: what do we know? Because there are times that the
Speaker 2: stranger is a good thing, yeah, for sure, right yeah,
Speaker 2: and many times where it's not.
Speaker 1: I think it's a good thing for me right now,
Speaker 1: like my life is more peaceful and not having a
Speaker 1: fighting family member in it. And uh, but you know,
Speaker 1: let's say, like my therapist always says, let life unfold, Jackie,
Speaker 1: stop worry so much about things you can't control. Let
Speaker 1: it unfold. You let me know. When you learn to
Speaker 1: do that, you can help me to do that.
Speaker 2: Mine says the same thing. Be present, be present, be present.
Speaker 2: I'm like, listen, stop telling me to be present. I'm
Speaker 2: already like three years about Yeah.
Speaker 1: And anyway, this was great. I love this felt like
Speaker 1: therapy to me. It did it.
Speaker 2: It's like it's nice also that it was kind of
Speaker 2: just us delving in. Yeah, I hope you guys, I
Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, we're not therapist, so I don't
Speaker 2: think we could have helped you in Anybody in the
Speaker 2: comments we're sharing at least maybe shared experiences.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, And trust me, I think it'd be
Speaker 1: hard pressed to find many people who don't have at
Speaker 1: least one very tough, toxic relationship in their family. Agreed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, on that happy note, Love to you all, Love
Speaker 2: you guys, I see you next time.
Speaker 1: Bye bye