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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Jackie Golschneider and Jennifer Wessler. We are

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Speaker 1: two Jersey Jays. Hi. Guys, Hi, we don't have a

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Speaker 1: guest today, which I kind of love because I kind

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Speaker 1: of love just like talking to you. I do too.

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Speaker 2: I kind of like having just this back and forth,

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Speaker 2: you know. I also obviously we both love having guests.

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Speaker 2: We have actually some really cool ones. Yeah, wind up,

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Speaker 2: Yes we do.

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Speaker 1: Today it's just us. Yeah, and it's a really it's

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Speaker 1: an interesting topic, Greed agreed, a topic that both of

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Speaker 1: us actually have a lot of things to say about.

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Speaker 1: So today's topic is family relationships, and I think a

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Speaker 1: big part of that is estrangement sometimes unfortunately, that is

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Speaker 1: a big part of it on our show right now,

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Speaker 1: without going into any detail, there's a lot of family estrangements.

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Speaker 2: Yes, unfortunately, And you know, I've had some estrangements within

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Speaker 2: my family. I still actually do, not personally, but family members.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just really really difficult. Sometimes it's for

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Speaker 2: the best, other times not so much. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I think that it's something that most people have either

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Speaker 2: dealt with or have had loved ones deal with, you know.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny that you say that because when I so,

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Speaker 1: I have like a very specific family estrangement that has

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Speaker 1: always I don't know, I waver between it bothering me

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Speaker 1: and it not bothering me. But I always kind of

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Speaker 1: felt like I was the only person. And now I

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Speaker 1: see how common it is, But for a long time,

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Speaker 1: I always felt like, why does everybody else get a

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Speaker 1: perfect family unit and mine is so dub Not that

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Speaker 1: my family is stup, but this relationship is so like

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Speaker 1: far gone, but I always felt like nobody else has

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Speaker 1: to deal with this, well except for me.

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Speaker 2: Both just did an article about family estrangements and there's

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Speaker 2: apparently there's a no contact family hashtag and it's garnered

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Speaker 2: just millions of views. So according to Psychology Today, at

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Speaker 2: least one in four people actually experience estrangements, which seems

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Speaker 2: like a huge number to me.

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Speaker 1: Well, it doesn't seem that huge to me because in

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Speaker 1: my family, and like my parents are very nice people,

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Speaker 1: my mother is estranged from her sister. My father was

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Speaker 1: estranged from his brother for twenty years before his brother died,

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Speaker 1: and I have always since as far back as I

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Speaker 1: can remember, I've been a strange from my sister. Well,

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Speaker 1: start talking, Oh, way to talk about it. No, no, no,

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Speaker 1: So tell me. You know, here's the difficulty. Before I

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Speaker 1: go into the I'm not going to really go out

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Speaker 1: of respect for my sister, I will not go into

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Speaker 1: like specifics of what you know has happened over the years,

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Speaker 1: but like there's never been a relationship there. So there's

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Speaker 1: been aggression, there's been fighting because there's no respect or

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Speaker 1: love there. I think that would almost make it easier, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's not hard for me on a daily basis.

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Speaker 1: I don't care. What's hard for me is knowing that

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Speaker 1: I have a living blood sister who lives in the

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Speaker 1: same state as me that I have no relationship with.

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Speaker 1: It's very strange to me that my children don't know her.

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Speaker 1: They couldn't pick her out of a lineup. Wow, it's

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Speaker 1: weird to me, you know, And I think that's what

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Speaker 1: bothers me is more like the idea of it, not

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Speaker 1: that I actually want a relationship with her. And you

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Speaker 1: have nieces and nephews are yeah, who I love who

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Speaker 1: I'm very relationship with them. Yes, do you have a

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Speaker 1: very long story, but she doesn't have one with yours.

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Speaker 1: So my which we started at the beginning. Yeah, let's

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Speaker 1: let's start at the start. So you know, I never

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Speaker 1: had a relationship with my sister. She's five years older

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Speaker 1: than me. Growing up, she really wanted nothing to do

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Speaker 1: with me. I have to believe it's her, because how

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Speaker 1: do you hate a five year old? You know, so

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Speaker 1: she she I had nothing to do and they wanted

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with you, Like where was your mom?

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Speaker 1: And this just never played with you. Didn't help much

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Speaker 1: older My parents worked full time and I had a

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Speaker 1: disabled brother, so I still have a disabled brother. No

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Speaker 1: that how much older is your sister? Five years? Okay,

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Speaker 1: so nobody had time for this, like like fighting sisters nonsense,

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Speaker 1: Like my parents had all because you thought that much

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Speaker 1: because we were so far apart in age. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: even that we would fight. It was I felt from

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Speaker 1: my perspective, it was that I was like she was

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Speaker 1: just like torture me, Like it was hell yeah, and

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Speaker 1: like the few times that my parents left her to

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Speaker 1: babysit me, like it just wasn't good at all. And

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Speaker 1: then when I was thirteen, we moved and she was eighteen,

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Speaker 1: she moved out, so like my parents got our condo

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Speaker 1: just to get her the fuck out of the house

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Speaker 1: and that was it. We've hardly seen each other since,

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Speaker 1: so there wasn't a big blowout. It was just we're

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Speaker 1: not close. We never have been close. We just don't

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Speaker 1: like each other. Blowout because but there was never good times.

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Speaker 1: There was only blowout, so like there was no contact

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Speaker 1: and then she'd have a fight with my parents and

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Speaker 1: stick me in the middle of that fight. Now we

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Speaker 1: did have a fight, my mom would try to get

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Speaker 1: us together, and then the fights would be even more

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Speaker 1: explosive because it always ended in a fight, and I

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Speaker 1: just it just never worked. So there's the part of

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Speaker 1: me that so I gave up a few years ago,

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Speaker 1: not interested anymore. Wasn't good for me, wasn't good for

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Speaker 1: my husband, wasn't good for our family, And I don't

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Speaker 1: there's nothing to miss, you know, it's just weird to me.

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Speaker 1: It feels weird. And here's what feels weirder is that

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Speaker 1: society tells you that you can never give up on family,

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Speaker 1: and for a long time that made me feel like

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Speaker 1: I was giving up too easily. And so every few

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Speaker 1: months I would send a text message or I would

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Speaker 1: be like, do you want to try? Do you want

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Speaker 1: to meet for lunch? Do you want to and then

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Speaker 1: it just would never go anywhere, and I felt very conflicted,

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Speaker 1: like how much how do you balance this message from

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Speaker 1: society that you have to keep trying, that you don't

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Speaker 1: give up on family with this feeling that something is

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Speaker 1: just not good for you or a relationship adds nothing

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Speaker 1: to your life.

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Speaker 2: And it was Yeah, I feel like that narrative, though,

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Speaker 2: has changed. I feel like there's so much that I

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Speaker 2: see on social media about you know, being you know,

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Speaker 2: friends or chosen family, or when something's toxic, how to

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Speaker 2: walk away from it, including family. I feel like I

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Speaker 2: see more and more of that. You don't see that, yes.

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Speaker 1: I do, but I think when it's your life and

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Speaker 1: you see how it interferes with your family dynamic, Like, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm for forty seven years old. My life is pretty

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Speaker 1: solid without the relationship with my sister in it. But

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Speaker 1: I do feel very I'm very aware of the fact

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Speaker 1: that my original family, not the family I have now.

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Speaker 1: We are never in the same room together, except if

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Speaker 1: it's like a huge occasion like someone's born mitzvah or something,

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Speaker 1: and then there's no contact between us. But we're in

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Speaker 1: the same room, but we never have family. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: to me that.

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Speaker 2: So my experience with family estrangement has not been well.

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Speaker 2: Depends what you define as long term, right, Like I've

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Speaker 2: gone a year without speaking to my sister. I've gone

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Speaker 2: a year without speaking to a cousin who I'm very

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Speaker 2: very very close to, even estrangement. Not speaking to one

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Speaker 2: of my parents for months. Is that a strangement or

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Speaker 2: is that just a I don't know.

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Speaker 1: That's a break.

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Speaker 2: But it's interesting to me because nothing specifically happened between

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Speaker 2: you and your sister. I can't imagine that both of

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Speaker 2: you haven't grown and evolved and changed, and yet you're

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Speaker 2: both nobody is like you're You're just don't feel like

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Speaker 2: you even have a yearning to talk to her or

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Speaker 2: have her be part of your life. And I think

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Speaker 2: that maybe because you have never been closed my periods

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Speaker 2: of estrangement. For instance, with my sister, I want to say,

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Speaker 2: maybe over a year we didn't speak. I don't know

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Speaker 2: what's kid considered. I mean, at that point, did I

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Speaker 2: say we were estranged?

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Speaker 1: Maybe?

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Speaker 2: I don't with the dictionary what the definition of estrangement is,

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Speaker 2: but it I was so angry and she was so angry.

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Speaker 2: Do you want to talk about It's hard. This is

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Speaker 2: hard because I don't really but I can. I can

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Speaker 2: tell you that we were always so Robin and I

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Speaker 2: my sister were fourteen months apart, so I am older,

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Speaker 2: and I would growing up, I would terrorize her by

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Speaker 2: and we'd laugh about it. Now, you know. My mom

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Speaker 2: would leave us together and I'd be like, this is

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Speaker 2: a line, and I'd draw some imaginary line down the

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Speaker 2: living room. If you cross it, I will beat the

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Speaker 2: shit out of you or whatever it was. And we

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Speaker 2: were also best friends and both right, but we were

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Speaker 2: fighting and calling each other horrible names. And that was

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Speaker 2: just the nature of it, right, two girls growing up

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Speaker 2: in the same house, and as we got older, no

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Speaker 2: one could say anything to me that would get under

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Speaker 2: my skin as much as my sister, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's I know that that's true for her as well.

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Speaker 1: Right, We could really.

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Speaker 2: Just just strike a chord with each other anyway. We've

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Speaker 2: certainly had our share of fights. We don't really anymore, thankfully,

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Speaker 2: But whatever happened, and we didn't speak for a year,

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Speaker 2: and I just remember it being as much as I

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Speaker 2: tried to deny it, and I would say to my

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Speaker 2: mom specifically because she was so torn up about it right,

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Speaker 2: and I'm going to die one day and you're not

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Speaker 2: going to have each other. And I would say to her,

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Speaker 2: I don't miss her, I don't care, I don't like her.

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Speaker 2: It's my life is complete and I don't meet her

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Speaker 2: in it. And I was lying not only to my mom,

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Speaker 2: I was lying to myself because it was just this

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Speaker 2: weight that I carried around. And so, probably over a

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Speaker 2: year into our quote unquote estrangement, I got a call

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Speaker 2: from her I'll never forget it, one morning and crying

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Speaker 2: and something had happened and she said, I need my

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Speaker 2: sister and that was it done over, never to be

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Speaker 2: estranged again.

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Speaker 1: That's that's it's amazing. And it makes me sad. I

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Speaker 1: know it's sorry. No, no, no, it just makes me sad,

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Speaker 1: not not because of my sister specifically, but because of

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Speaker 1: the idea that people do find their way past this.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you the very big thing, and this is

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Speaker 1: this is the big difference. And this is going to

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Speaker 1: sound very harsh, but it's true. Well we do true,

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Speaker 1: So go okay. My sister and I don't love each other.

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Speaker 1: And it sounds very harsh because we're in the same family,

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Speaker 1: but we've never loved each other, like I would she

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Speaker 1: say that as well? How she said it? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: she can't stand me, which has to do with the

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Speaker 1: idea of me. Listen, I'm not everyone's cup of tea,

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Speaker 1: but like, she doesn't even know me. I haven't been

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Speaker 1: in a room with her. And how do you think

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Speaker 1: she watches the show? I think the first few seasons now, Listen,

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Speaker 1: she participated in the first season. I remember that of

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Speaker 1: the show, but grudgingly she wouldn't allow so we did

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Speaker 1: this scene where we talked on the phone. I remember

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Speaker 1: that we used to toy around every once in a

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Speaker 1: while with making up, and then it would turn into

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Speaker 1: like an explosive meltdown and like everything would just fall apart.

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Speaker 1: And I would try. I really did. I would try.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know on my end that I tried,

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Speaker 1: And maybe that's why I don't feel guilty about anything,

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Speaker 1: because I did try. But she wouldn't let them use

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Speaker 1: her voice, so it sounded like I was making a

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Speaker 1: fake phone call because she didn't want her voice on camera.

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Speaker 1: I never wanted her name on camera, didn't want her picture,

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Speaker 1: and that's fine, and I had to respect that, and

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Speaker 1: you know, it just never went anywhere. Nothing ever went anywhere.

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't a big I mean, we've had some big,

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Speaker 1: explosive fights, but it wasn't like one penultimate kind of

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Speaker 1: that led to an estrangement. It was just always. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I do think that my parents made no secret of

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Speaker 1: kind of favoring me. When I was younger. I was

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Speaker 1: such a tightwad. I wanted to do everything perfectly. I

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Speaker 1: graduated sumacom laud from college. I went to a top

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Speaker 1: twenty five law school. I landed a huge corporate job.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was a mergers and acquisitions attorney, like

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Speaker 1: at twenty four years old, killing it.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, it's so interesting because I don't want

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Speaker 2: to you know, I don't want to head into a

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Speaker 2: different direction right now, but like we've got to cover

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Speaker 2: that at some point my past life. Like you're a

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Speaker 2: housewipe of New Jersey from a merger's acquisitions attorney.

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Speaker 1: That was. That was a hoot. That was so I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you the story of that one day.

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Speaker 3: But I mean, like my mother would like, you know,

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Speaker 3: stand on a table and scream, my daughter's a lawyer.

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Speaker 1: You know, che is really like you wish mother. She

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Speaker 1: was so proud and like that. You know, my sister

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Speaker 1: didn't go to college. She wasn't interested, and that's fine too,

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Speaker 1: but like she wasn't she didn't have like much of

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Speaker 1: a work ethic or drive, And I think it was

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Speaker 1: hard to Your parents are so proud of your sibling,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, they favor your siblings. And I think she

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Speaker 1: always that's kind of hated the idea of me. It

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Speaker 1: can't be me because I've never had anything to do

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Speaker 1: with her. She doesn't like the idea of me, and

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Speaker 1: and that's okay, but it's only did.

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Speaker 2: You like her at all? Like did you? I know

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Speaker 2: you say you're saying I wanted to. I really wanted

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Speaker 2: to about her that you enjoyed.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever have fun together? Did you ever together? No?

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Speaker 1: We were never together, like a few family vacations growing up,

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Speaker 1: And she was very distant from me. She was never

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Speaker 1: super social and like really had nothing to do with me.

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Speaker 1: Now close do you guys live now? She lives about

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Speaker 1: an hour away. Yeah, but I am very close to

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Speaker 1: their kids. My mother made sure of that. So her

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Speaker 1: kids are much older than my not much older, but

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Speaker 1: they're all adults now, so and I adore them and

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Speaker 1: they're wonderful kids.

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Speaker 2: Wow, And why don't her why don't Why doesn't she

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Speaker 2: have relationships with your kids?

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Speaker 1: So, my mother was very involved with my sister's kids

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Speaker 1: and not as involved with my kids, meaning like she

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Speaker 1: lived with my sister and helped her take care of them.

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Speaker 1: So she would always bring my sister's kids to my house.

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Speaker 1: Got it. My kids and me were not welcome in

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Speaker 1: my sister's house, so we never went there. Your sister

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Speaker 1: didn't allow your kids in her house. No, we've been

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Speaker 1: there like one time. Yeah, here without you. Yeah, they've

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Speaker 1: only been there like once, I think, yeah, for a

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Speaker 1: July fourth party. I know. But it's okay, Listen, she's

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Speaker 1: not She's only shit to me. Other people lover you

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Speaker 1: know so, and she is wonderful to my brother. We

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Speaker 1: all are. We all take care of my brother. So,

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Speaker 1: but you know, it was really only in recent years

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Speaker 1: that I was like, you know what, I have to

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Speaker 1: be authentic to myself and I don't think this relationship

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Speaker 1: is good for me, and I'm not going to try anymore.

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Speaker 2: Listen, at the end of the day, I suppose what

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Speaker 2: matters is that you're happy and you are Oh yeah, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't think about it. On in theaterday. So I'm saying, like,

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Speaker 1: it shouldn't you shouldn't. I guess you shouldn't end an

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Speaker 1: estrangement because you think that it's weird or if your

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Speaker 1: life is full without that person. The person's only, you know,

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Speaker 1: bringing you sadness and anger. She doesn't bring me sad

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Speaker 1: she worrett touch nothing she brings. She brings nothing. And

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Speaker 1: I you know, they have these like, you know, made

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Speaker 1: up Facebook holidays where they're like Sister Day, you know,

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Speaker 1: and just I'm like, my feet is flooded with people saying,

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Speaker 1: oh God, God gives you an angel on earth and

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Speaker 1: it's your sister, you know. And I'm always my sister

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Speaker 1: and I are not angels on from it.

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Speaker 3: But I'll be like reading this shit and I'll be like,

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Speaker 3: how come everybody else gets a great sister. I have

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Speaker 3: a sister, a half sister. I have actually three half siblings, okay,

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Speaker 3: and my half sister is younger than my daughter. And yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's what's your relationship podcast. I mean, we don't really

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Speaker 3: have one. She I've only met her a few times.

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Speaker 3: She lives in another state, and I don't want to

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Speaker 3: talk too much about this, but so I don't know her. Well,

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Speaker 3: it's it's bizarre.

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Speaker 2: And you know, while she was growing up and my

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Speaker 2: dad was calling to tell me that she got a

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Speaker 2: green belt in karate, I was like, so did your granddaughter?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: So it's it was just strange and only was good

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Speaker 2: things for her. It's just it's been is a very

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Speaker 2: unique circumstance.

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Speaker 1: Does she live close? No, No, she doesn't. You have

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Speaker 1: three half siblings. I have three half siblings. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: do they all have the same mom?

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Speaker 2: Noh, so my sister and I have the same mother

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Speaker 2: and father, my old sister whoever you want to say that,

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Speaker 2: and the other three half siblings all have the same

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Speaker 2: father as I do. Yeah, but you know, I've been

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Speaker 2: through periods of estrangement from my father. I've been, as

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Speaker 2: I've mentioned before, my one of besides my sister, the

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Speaker 2: hardest strangements that I've dealt with has been with a

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Speaker 2: cousin and we didn't speak for a year and a half, which,

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Speaker 2: again I don't know what that qualifies, but it's for me,

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Speaker 2: it felt like that over politics. Really, yes, And I

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Speaker 2: look back at it now and I can't believe that

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Speaker 2: we got to that point and that was a situation

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Speaker 2: like my sister, but with my cousin where it was brutal.

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Speaker 2: I missed her every day. You know my sister too.

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Speaker 2: But my sister and I were arguing over personal issues

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Speaker 2: and I was so this was so we said things

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Speaker 2: that were hurtful to each other. And as soon as

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Speaker 2: I picked up the phone, it was her birthday, and

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Speaker 2: I was just I couldn't do it anymore. I picked

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Speaker 2: up the birthday, I picked up the birthday, I picked

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Speaker 2: up the phone and I called her on her birthday

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Speaker 2: and immediately it was over within two seconds.

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Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, well that's because there was a foundation. Yes,

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Speaker 1: there's lots, that's true.

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Speaker 2: I guess that's the different And we also people get

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Speaker 2: a strange not just for the reason that they were

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Speaker 2: never close or that they had a fight. It's because

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Speaker 2: relationships are toxic or you know, somebody's abusive, right, And

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Speaker 2: it doesn't mean the other person is toxic, it's just

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Speaker 2: that relationship that's toxic.

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Speaker 1: Now, let me just preface all of this by saying that, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to take my part out of it.

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Speaker 1: I do feel like I've tried over the years, but

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Speaker 1: when we have fought, I've also played my part. So

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Speaker 1: that's one thing I'm not going to absolve myself. I

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Speaker 1: so like I have gotten when we have fought, I

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Speaker 1: have gotten nasty myself.

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Speaker 2: She listens to the podcast, which sounds she probably doesn't.

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Speaker 2: I'm a real fucking softy. So if she does, and

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Speaker 2: if she called me, I promise you like our fight

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Speaker 2: would end, it will never happen. It will never happen.

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Speaker 2: I've been It's been forty years of like efforts and

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Speaker 2: like nothing. I don't even know that I wanted anymore.

359
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Speaker 2: But is she called, she will But if she did,

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Speaker 2: if she did, yeah, but she's not going to I

361
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Speaker 2: guess never going to happen. I just I think it's

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Speaker 2: interesting and I do you know, it's so funny in

363
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Speaker 2: the past few years. I know, I talk about recovery

364
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Speaker 2: a lot, but like my mindset on a lot of

365
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Speaker 2: things has changed. I know a lot of people we're

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Speaker 2: not going to talk about the show. A lot of

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Speaker 2: people think that I have very like different reasons for

368
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Speaker 2: my relationships shifting. It's really that I'm in a place

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Speaker 2: where I know what feels good to me and what doesn't,

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Speaker 2: and I don't care what anyone else thinks. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to do what authentically feels good for me. If you

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Speaker 2: want to.

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Speaker 1: Assign different reasons to it, that's fine. That's what these

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Speaker 1: shows are for, so that people can have an opinion

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Speaker 1: and talk about it. Right But I know that I

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Speaker 1: am doing things that feel authentically good to me, and

377
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Speaker 1: right now, I'm not interested in trying anymore, which is

378
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Speaker 1: very hard because, like I said, society tells you family

379
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Speaker 1: over everything. It's different also your relationships on the show,

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Speaker 1: they're friendships, and there's a big difference. It feels very

381
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Speaker 1: different from me when I've been a strange from friends,

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Speaker 1: and I am a strange from friends, not many of them,

383
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Speaker 1: but a couple in terms of my life, as opposed

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Speaker 1: to being a strange from family and the estrangements I've

385
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Speaker 1: had from family. It's they've played on me, right, They're

386
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Speaker 1: like always with me. It's like even when everything feels great,

387
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Speaker 1: there's a loss. When everything feels there's a loss.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know if that is about blood, and

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Speaker 2: I don't think that everyone feels that way. I think

390
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Speaker 2: there's there are abusive family relationships that people are not

391
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Speaker 2: only smart to get rid of, but also feel probably

392
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Speaker 2: simply relief, but the relationships that I've had in terms

393
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Speaker 2: of friendships that are now estranged, they don't play on me,

394
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Speaker 2: you know. There of course, there might be moments of

395
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Speaker 2: sadness or moments of anger, or moments of you know,

396
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:33,440
Speaker 2: sentimentality looking back. But the family, the family ones, they

397
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,680
Speaker 2: were just with me. I felt it all the time,

398
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Speaker 2: different from you and your sister.

399
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Speaker 1: Right because because I said, like the foundation that was there.

400
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Speaker 1: But then I look at the other relationships in my life,

401
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,119
Speaker 1: in my family, it's the only one. So like say,

402
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,439
Speaker 1: like on our show, there's many many estrangements, and like

403
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:52,280
Speaker 1: if you are estranged from everyone in your family and

404
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 1: everyone in your spouse's family, then maybe it's you with me.

405
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Speaker 1: I couldn't be closer to my mother like we are.

406
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,320
Speaker 1: We love each other so much. I couldn't be closer

407
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Speaker 1: to my father. I adore him. They have their faults,

408
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: so do I.

409
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: But why don't the anybody thinks that it looks at

410
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,800
Speaker 2: an estrange when it thinks it's your fault. There's it

411
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 2: takes two to tango, Like I don't, yeah, I don't.

412
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 2: I don't, you know. I wouldn't think to myself, well,

413
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 2: there's something wrong with Jackie you know clearly there's something wrong, you.

414
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: Know, you really do because of this message that society

415
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Speaker 1: tells you. So but what would you so, What's what's

416
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: your take on the never give up messaging? You know, like,

417
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 1: at a certain point do you give up?

418
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Speaker 2: Well, so, when my sister and I didn't speak, my

419
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,720
Speaker 2: mother certainly did not give up. So it sounds like

420
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 2: your parents have resolved the recently.

421
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: Yes, For many, many years, they would tell me Jackie,

422
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: just apologized to her and let it be over. And

423
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: I'd say, first of all, I don't even know what

424
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 1: I'm apologizing for. But second of all, it won't be

425
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 1: over because tomorrow there'll be something new that I have

426
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Speaker 1: to apologize for. So I don't. I don't know what

427
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 1: you are, what you expect to happen, you know, I don't,

428
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: But I feel bad. I feel sad for them.

429
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,160
Speaker 2: Well, I don't. I don't think that every family estrangement

430
00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: should be resolved. I don't think that just because it's

431
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 2: blood you should absolutely fix it.

432
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 1: I don't.

433
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 2: I don't think that life is short and if it

434
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 2: is taking away from the quality of your life and

435
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 2: you know, causing heartbreak, then better off estranged, Right, I

436
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 2: would if my kids, let's say were estranged. They ever

437
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: are a strange It would absolutely break my heart. And

438
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 2: I don't see a scenario where I wouldn't keep trying

439
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 2: to fix it.

440
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: I guess that's that's the thing I can't imagine. So

441
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,879
Speaker 1: my four children are well, they're very close in age.

442
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 1: I had four kids under the age of three. I

443
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: fear in diapers in my house. That's that's another episode. Wow.

444
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: But they're all very close now granted they're all teenagers now,

445
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,920
Speaker 1: they all have their own lives, but they love each

446
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: other so much. And I can't imagine how hard it

447
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: must be to watch your children completely split off from

448
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: each other. But at the same time, my sister has

449
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: a beautiful life. She has four healthy, smart children. She's

450
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,719
Speaker 1: married to the same person since nineteen ninety eight. Like,

451
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,199
Speaker 1: she's she's fine, you know, she's I don't know if

452
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 1: she's happy. I have nothing to do with her, but

453
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: she seems fine. Yeah, I don't feel sad for her. Yeah,

454
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: feels sad for her parents.

455
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 2: There was a time this is like his were never estranged.

456
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 2: They're very very close. But I remember they were young

457
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: and Rachel said something nasty to my son and actually

458
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: it's funny because he took this bottle of saracha sauce

459
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: and he pounded. He was so frustrated because growing up,

460
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: Rachel was just a terror and my son Zach was

461
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: just always sweet and easy. But we were all just

462
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 2: like we'd say, we'd like tiptoe around Rachel. She grew

463
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 2: up and she's way different now and we laugh about it.

464
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 2: But so she was just or she was just would

465
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: just torment him. And he took this bottle of sarracha

466
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,199
Speaker 2: and he slammed it on the kitchen table and I

467
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,399
Speaker 2: got all over the ceiling and he ran outside. He

468
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: was so upset, and I of course ran after him

469
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 2: and he was crying. He's like, Mom, I'm not crying

470
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 2: because I care for me. I care for you because

471
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: I'm just letting you know right now that when I

472
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: grow up, I'm never speaking to her again. And I

473
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:38,199
Speaker 2: feel better. I feel that he's so cute. So he

474
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 2: was always like so like sort of sensitive like that.

475
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: And we left the sarracha on for years on the ceiling,

476
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: Yes we did, and.

477
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 1: Not in this house. Yes, in this house we had it.

478
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 2: I mean in the kitchen painted I don't know, like

479
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,639
Speaker 2: three years ago maybe we've been here for thirteen I

480
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 2: don't know, but I don't know what we were trying.

481
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 2: Why we left it was from what it symbolized exactly,

482
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: but we almost just laughed about it.

483
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: You would look at it. Yeah, in my old thought,

484
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,479
Speaker 1: this is totally off topic. But in my old house.

485
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: We moved to one house in ten a flight before

486
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 1: we moved to our new house, but we had a

487
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: really like a double length ceiling whatever you call it

488
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 1: when you walk in, and we took our kids when

489
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: they were like a year old to see Sesame Street

490
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: live and they brought home an Elma balloon and it

491
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 1: floated up to the.

492
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 3: Top and we left it there for years because what

493
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 3: we were going to do right, But every time we'd

494
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 3: look at.

495
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: It, we just laughed. We've been there for so long,

496
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: and like no one even noticed it.

497
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 3: But when people did, they'd be like, you know, you

498
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: have an elbow out there because it's a beautiful house.

499
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: And then like a big floating at holmohad pies of

500
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: heliing some good alia it did. It just stayed.

501
00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:46,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we left it up there and laughed about it,

502
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: and you know, I knew it was coming from a

503
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:55,479
Speaker 2: child's perspective obviously, but picturing it now, I just it

504
00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 2: would break my heart. And I think there's just also

505
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,399
Speaker 2: something about, Okay, now we're going to get a little deep,

506
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: but mortality, right, And I think for parents thinking about yea,

507
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 2: their mortality, like if I can't, it'd be hard for

508
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 2: me to picture a world that I'm not in and

509
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 2: that where my kids weren't bonded.

510
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: Ye know. I mean my sister has a nice relationship

511
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: with my parents too. They've just stopped trying to bring

512
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: us together because I think they realized it was feudial.

513
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: But here's where the mortality piece comes in. For me,

514
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: it's not my own mortality, it's that I don't want

515
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: that reconnect. If we ever are going to reconnect, I

516
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,199
Speaker 1: don't want it to be at one of our parents' deathbeds.

517
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 1: God forbid. I don't want that to be the moment

518
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: because if we are going to come back together with

519
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,400
Speaker 1: my parents to experience it right, Because.

520
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 2: Okay, so again I'm not I'm not a shrink, and

521
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know really the intricate details of

522
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:56,719
Speaker 2: you and your sister, but thinking feeling that way like

523
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: you would make them so happy, just for that reason.

524
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: Is there a part of you that we're going to

525
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 1: end in podcast. You're going to pick up the phone.

526
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: I'm not going to pick up so many times. And

527
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 1: I will tell you honestly, there's no interest on her

528
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: part the way that I am. Jen. I am so

529
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:19,200
Speaker 1: open to always reconciling unless you've done something to me

530
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 1: that is so unbelievably painful that I can't move past it. Then,

531
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: like you've you've I can't even explain unless you've done

532
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: something to me that's so unbelievably hurtful, I can really

533
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: move past things. I'm good at that I'm good at,

534
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 1: not just sweeping it under the rug.

535
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: And it doesn't sound like though with you and your sister,

536
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 2: it's been anything specifically one like one thing that was

537
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: so painful. It's more just a lifetime of.

538
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: Miss there's nothing there. It's like telling me, like, if

539
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: you want to reconcile with my neighbor Sue, and I

540
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: don't know your neighbor Sue. You know, that's what it

541
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: feels like to me. I don't know her, which is

542
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 1: weird because we share the same parents. I don't know her,

543
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: So would I reconcile with her? Yeah? I would, but

544
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: it's not because I love her and miss her. Yeah,

545
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: you know that's the difference. I don't love and miss

546
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: her because I don't know her. It's more so that

547
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: this piece of me that feels like there is I

548
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 1: have a sister in the world and I don't know her.

549
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: That feels that's always going to feel strange to me.

550
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: Whether or not. It's not really about like losing a

551
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: loved one, like not losing a loved one, but like

552
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: losing a relationship, a loving relationship. That's not it. It's

553
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: that I'm very uncomfortable with the idea of having a

554
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: sister and having no relationship with her, even if I

555
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: never did.

556
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: What about family members relationships that are toxic and but

557
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 2: you make the decision to keep that relationship or keep

558
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 2: the person in your life. And you always hear about

559
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 2: the difficulty right of like things giving or you know, family,

560
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 2: big family get togethers, and what's healthy there. We probably

561
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: should have had a we can doctor on and we

562
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 2: can what.

563
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,720
Speaker 1: I think is healthy there, maybe not estrangement, but space.

564
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 1: You know, you come together at certain holidays, but like

565
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 1: even take the holidays. Let's say you say that Thanksgiving

566
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 1: is no fun when Uncle John comes, like it's torture

567
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: and he criticizes. You know, I've had people in my

568
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: past who would come and you know, point out the

569
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: flaws in my weight over the years, and I was

570
00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: so uncomfortable with them. But you can't can't cut off family.

571
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: My parents never cut people out, you know, even if

572
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: they were disasters, you know, because and.

573
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,200
Speaker 2: They probably they probably does kill them. I mean, do

574
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: they talk to you about you and your sister? They

575
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 2: just completely you said they gave up.

576
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they gave up. They gave up a few

577
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: years ago. They realized both of us have full lives

578
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 1: without each other in it, and they have They've gotten

579
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: used to it. Listen, there are worse things than not

580
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: having your all your kids in the same room at

581
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: the same time. Yeah, yeah, of course it sucks, but

582
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: they also have very full lives. They see her. This

583
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: is why so we for many years, Evan and I

584
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 1: would we would alternate holidays because my parents would go

585
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: to her one year and they would come to me

586
00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: one year. So in the off years we go to

587
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: his parents, you know, so because he's also got siblings,

588
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: a sister, and she lives in the city, so like

589
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 1: it wasn't always like everyone could be at one place.

590
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: In recent years, everythingsgiving has been at my house because

591
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 1: our parents are all older now, no one wants to

592
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: cook and host and everything, right, So I'm happy to

593
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: have it at my home. But you know, for we're

594
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: never together for holidays, So yeah, it's so I'm just

595
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: thinking about you know, we talked about doing this today's episode,

596
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: and talk were really started out just talking about family

597
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:04,719
Speaker 1: and family dynamic and not just estrangement, but the difficulty

598
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: sometimes of having family members that you don't relationships that

599
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: you don't drive any joy from, right, and had to

600
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 1: kind of handle that and still the wanting to maintain

601
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: some kind of relationship. I can't say that. I well,

602
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: you know, my relationship relationships with my parents have changed

603
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 1: so much over the years, right, And I come from

604
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: family that's been divorced. My father it was divorced three times.

605
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: My mom's my mom, they divorced when we were really

606
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 1: really young, and then my mom remarried and her husband

607
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: died and there was another one. So it's been a

608
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: lot of divorce. And my relationship with my parents today

609
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: is so different than it was. There are times times

610
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: where I didn't speak to my father, and like, you know,

611
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: I do say to him now because we're in a

612
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: much better place. As I've gotten older, it's gotten, you know,

613
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: way better. But he made a lot of mistakes. I

614
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: was a kid, so I'm not going to take too

615
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: much responsibility for that. And he would say to me,

616
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't have any I didn't have any

617
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: frame of reference. My father was a horrible father.

618
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: And so you know, as we as I got older,

619
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 2: there were times where I would just cut him out right,

620
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 2: or maybe he would cut me out. But now I'm

621
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 2: fifty five years old and my father's eighty two years old,

622
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 2: and there have been lots of there's been lots of reflection,

623
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: there's been lots of apology, and I'd rather have him

624
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,239
Speaker 2: in my life than not. Yes, And you know, I

625
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 2: say too, I talked about this in there a lot

626
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 2: that I don't want regret and I don't want my

627
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 2: father to one day, a million years from now pass

628
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 2: away and feel like there was more I would have

629
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 2: wanted to say, or I would have wanted to have

630
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 2: more a more loving relationship with him, And we've been

631
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: through it. Let me assure you that in terms of

632
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: my childhood I've been through it again. That's for another episode.

633
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: But as I've gotten older, I prefer to have, you know,

634
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 2: my father in my life, and I do love him,

635
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 2: and I know that he loves me, and he has

636
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 2: reflected on his life and is very open to seeing

637
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: the reality of what it was. When we were younger,

638
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: my mom had it really really difficult. She you know,

639
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 2: she was a single mom for while before she got remarried.

640
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: She had very difficult marriages. We had very difficult stepfathers,

641
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 2: and for that matter, we had a stepmother. It wasn't

642
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: great there.

643
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:14,399
Speaker 1: Anyway. Wow, I think, are you in touch with any

644
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: of your stepfathers? No? No, on one? Now? Oh your

645
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: mom is married now? Yeah, okay, yeah, and he is

646
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: the best. Oh, I love that. See. But also your

647
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: father is trying, like he realizes mistakes that he made

648
00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:29,399
Speaker 1: when he was younger, and he's trying. And that's that's

649
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: a big piece of it.

650
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: My mom, you know, in our relationship there was we

651
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 2: really had like a come to Jesus and I didn't

652
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: want to pretend anymore like my childhood was okay, And

653
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: it was really hard at the beginning of that conversation

654
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 2: and the conversation lasted probably a couple of years. But

655
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 2: you know, my mom is who dealt with so much,

656
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 2: and I look at our lives together and think about

657
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 2: what she had to overcome and how difficult it was

658
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 2: for her. But now you know, we got through it,

659
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 2: and she she really, you know, said she's made her

660
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: amends to me, as I will have to make to

661
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: my children because I know that I have. I like

662
00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 2: to think of myself as the perfect mother, but I guess.

663
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: What I wasn't. Really, what do you think you did?

664
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: I know I wasn't and I know that you weren't,

665
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 1: and I know what I did that I think is

666
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: like horrific is the things that I showed my children,

667
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 1: The way that you treat yourself and the way that

668
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: you starve yourself. I can't undo these things that I've shown,

669
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: and I know it sounds very vague right now, but

670
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 1: the habits that I displayed in front of my children

671
00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: are horrific. Yeah.

672
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 2: Well, again, I am uber aware that not there's not

673
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: a parent out there that's perfect, no matter what you

674
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 2: see on social media, and my mom was imperfect. Now

675
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: our relationship is such that I cry every time I

676
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 2: leave her. She's only lose a long island, but I

677
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 2: just want to be with her all the time. There

678
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: is nothing more comforting to me than just holding our hand.

679
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:08,799
Speaker 2: I'm going to get choked up. And there have been

680
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: times where our relationship was not good, but yeah.

681
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,040
Speaker 1: Mine too, but like great now, And I think a

682
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: big piece of that is understanding. You know, when I

683
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 1: was younger, I would make rash decisions and I would

684
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 1: assume people's intentions and a lot of that, A lot

685
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 1: of therapy has helped me to really see things from

686
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: other people's perspective. So, for example, and this will sound shocking,

687
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: but my mother still hasn't read my book. She read

688
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 1: the first few chapters and then stopped. This was too

689
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: painful for her. Well, I kept saying to her at

690
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: the beginning of the you know, when I first came out,

691
00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, insulting it is to me

692
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: that you haven't read it, and she'd be like, I'm

693
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: going to read it. I'm going to read it. And

694
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: then I think, after like six months, I said to her,

695
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: I can't believe you still haven't read it, and she said, Jackie,

696
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: it's hard for me. It's hard for me to like

697
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: read this stuff that you did for yourself, And I said,

698
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: you know what, enough said, don't do anything that you

699
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: don't want to do. Like I understand, I understand, and

700
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: like I just because I can see things now, I'm

701
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: mature enough to see things from other people's perspectives, I understand.

702
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: Is it insulting now, No, because I get it, Like

703
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: I don't know that I could read a story about

704
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: my daughter like almost killing yourself, you know, So I

705
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 1: just you know, there is this like piece of me

706
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,399
Speaker 1: that will always feel there is and it's not my sister.

707
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: It's the idea of my sister, an emptiness because of

708
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: what it could have been, and it isn't. But like

709
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 1: I said, I just don't want it to like re.

710
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: I don't want it to like for our relationship to

711
00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: start on a parent's stepbed. I hope that's not the case.

712
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: I either wanted to never happen or I want it

713
00:38:57,239 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: to happen so that my parents can see it and

714
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: enjoy it for fear, But you know, I don't. It

715
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 1: doesn't play into my everyday life. It plays in on

716
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: these stupid like holidays. And I have unfortunate I have

717
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: very close college girlfriends. One in particular, her name is Ali,

718
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: and she is like she is the closest thing I

719
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 1: have to a sister, but it's not a sister. It's

720
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 1: not you know, it doesn't replace a sister. And I

721
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: have very close friends and tenify I just like nothing

722
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: replaces that relationship.

723
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 2: You know that well, you know for me because my

724
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: sister and I had it. We didn't have an easy childhood,

725
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 2: but there's this one experience that we had that we

726
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 2: always for and this was by far not the even

727
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 2: remotely the hardest thing that we went through. But we

728
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 2: would leave, we would go to visit my father and

729
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: get on the plane. So my mom we moved to

730
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 2: Texas when I was nine years old, So we'd get

731
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: on the plane to go back to Texas and we

732
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 2: would both be crying, and I would just hold my

733
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: sister on the plane and like she was, you know,

734
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: she's only fourteen months younger than I am, on your

735
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 2: way to Texas or because because a lot of reasons,

736
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: but we you know, he was as much as he

737
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 2: was not. It wasn't great, but it was still our

738
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 2: father and it was still we had a lot going on,

739
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: and so but I would just hold her like she

740
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 2: was my little girl, and we talk about it, not

741
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: a lot, but we talk about it to this day

742
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 2: as no one can understand that but us, do you

743
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:31,399
Speaker 2: know what I mean?

744
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 1: Like that's.

745
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 2: No one will understand all of it, like Robin does,

746
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 2: like my sister doesn't. And not just the bad, right,

747
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 2: but the good. No one, That relationship is not replaceable, right.

748
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 1: And that's why I say like there is something to

749
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 1: the friends who are family. I strongly feel that with

750
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: some of my friends, like I could tell them anything,

751
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: I could be anywhere with them, right, But I don't.

752
00:40:55,760 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: I don't think anything actually replaces family. But it's okay.

753
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: I mean not everything in life is going to be perfect,

754
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: and that's all right. And this is one relationship I

755
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: don't get to have well, and I'm okay with it.

756
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of times it's better

757
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,760
Speaker 1: to be estranged. You know, they didn't. And for anyone

758
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 1: out there who has a toxic family member in your

759
00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: life that you are strange. From my take, it is

760
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: okay me to protect your peace and forget what everyone

761
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: says about how you never give up on family and

762
00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:28,240
Speaker 1: you always have to keep trying if that is toxic

763
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: for you, and you feel that authentically in your heart,

764
00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: let it go.

765
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 2: Every Listen. I think every case is different, right, and

766
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 2: I think there are certainly, certainly many many cases where

767
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: I would advise someone I love if something was toxic

768
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: or if a family member was hurting them obviously to

769
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: rid them right or get rid of that relationship. So

770
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 2: it's more difficult, I think sometimes with family, but sometimes

771
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,520
Speaker 2: it is necessary. And we are not experts, so you know,

772
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 2: I don't really have I can just we can only

773
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 2: share our own experience, strength, hope and you know what

774
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 2: we've been through. But I would never feel I would

775
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: never look down on somebody that is strange, like I

776
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 2: don't in.

777
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 1: Your sister, Yeah, judge that. And like I said, she's

778
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: not bad to other people. We just she's just it's

779
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 1: not that she's even bad to me, Like he's also

780
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: that you don't miss her.

781
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 2: It's not ye, I don't want when it's the idea right,

782
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,359
Speaker 2: when I'm not strange from family members, I it was

783
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 2: it was just it was on me. It was this

784
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 2: cloud that followed me. It wasn't easy, and it wasn't

785
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 2: it didn't feel like I was complete.

786
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, can I tell you something that I do struggle

787
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: with them? I struggle with whether or not my kids

788
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 1: should refer to her as their aunt, because I know

789
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: that sounds harsh, but I don't want them to feel

790
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 1: like they have an aunt in their lives that they

791
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't want them to feel like they're

792
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 1: missing something. So I have them call her by her

793
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: first name, if and when they ever refer to her,

794
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 1: because my parents sometimes refer to her, and they're close

795
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: with their cousins, so I refer to her, and so

796
00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 1: I have them not call her aunt, but my mother

797
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: refers to her as aunt. So it's very strange because

798
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,000
Speaker 1: I don't want my kids to feel like they're missing something,

799
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: and they don't, but I don't want it to be

800
00:43:17,480 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 1: awkward for them to feel like they haven't it. This

801
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: is just me getting you know, psychobabble whatever. But do

802
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: you think that's in part because it would be just

803
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: painful for you to hear that. No. I think it's

804
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 1: because I don't want my children to feel like they're

805
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: missing a relationship in their life. I don't want them

806
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: to feel like it's on them. You don't want them

807
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: to feel like they're missing a relationship too. I would think,

808
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: what do you mean? I mean that, like hearing them

809
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 1: say aunt would also bring themselves.

810
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:46,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

811
00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it's also like I don't want them to

812
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,359
Speaker 1: feel like it's on them to fix you know, if

813
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 1: she's just the first name, then she's just a person.

814
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: But if she's an aunt, there's something about that blood

815
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 1: tie that makes you feel like you should be doing

816
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 1: something more. Have you ever done any of these twenty

817
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: three and me ancestry dot com. No.

818
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: My friend Iris bought me one once, and I don't

819
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 2: know why I never sent it in. I think because

820
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: it was like a big brother's looking or something, you

821
00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like they say, don't do What

822
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: is the other one that you can do with twenty

823
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 2: three and me? Is that twenty three of me where

824
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: you can tell, like all the details of your past

825
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: and where you're from.

826
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: And I think so. But anyway, I know I've avoided them. Okay,

827
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,880
Speaker 1: I've avoided them because I don't think I want to know.

828
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 1: I think that I'm I think you can only bring

829
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: you know. I've read the pros and cons of discovering

830
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: new family members, and I'm not so sure that I

831
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: want to Why I think I am. I've experienced a

832
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,919
Speaker 1: lot with the sister thing, right, It's something that had

833
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: been on my mind for a very long time. And

834
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: I think I'm so content with the other relationships in

835
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 1: my family right now that I don't I don't want

836
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: to introduce something that could potentially muddy the water. Interesting. Yeah,

837
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 1: that definitely wasn't why I didn't didn't send that kid. Oh, so,

838
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: like if I discovered that I have a half sibling, Like,

839
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 1: do I want to know how that happened? Because my

840
00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 1: parents have been married for a very long time. I go,

841
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 1: I almost don't want to know. That's interesting. You know.

842
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 1: Does it tell you if you have a half sibling?

843
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think so.

844
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: Or does it just tell you? I thought I just

845
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 2: told your history. I think of an ancestry.

846
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 1: I think I've had friends who told me they discovered

847
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: a first cousin. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you know for

848
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 1: me that you say it wrong. Let me know if

849
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:42,959
Speaker 1: I'm wrong.

850
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 2: You know, I even now as I'm getting older. And

851
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 2: this might sound a little disingenuous, because I did get

852
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 2: on a show called, I don't know if you've heard

853
00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: of it, The Real Housewives. I'm not trasy, and it's

854
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: about it has been about making new friends and new

855
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: relationships and all of that, and and maybe not so much.

856
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 2: But anyway, I'm not.

857
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:03,760
Speaker 1: I don't.

858
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 2: I'm not as open to new even new friendships as

859
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: I used to be, and I don't really I'm not

860
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 2: really looking for that many new relationships. And certainly if

861
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 2: it's a new family member, I probably I would never

862
00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 2: reject anyone, but I'm out looking for that. I don't

863
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: know that I want more ties.

864
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: Is that I think that's what it is with me too.

865
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't want more blood relationships that might

866
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 1: not pan out in a good way. Yeah, I don't really.

867
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 1: So if you're listening and you think we maybe related,

868
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 1: lose my number. How you have it? But you know,

869
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: I do. I do look at my children and I think,

870
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 1: you know, and then I think to myself, you know,

871
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 1: for a long time, I actually blamed my parents. I was.

872
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 1: I was more of a hothead in my like thirties,

873
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: and I used to say to them, God, if it

874
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: was me, I would have put me and my sister

875
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: together in a room and fucking tied her hands together

876
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,479
Speaker 1: and said, you're not leaving this room until you guys

877
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: find a way to love each other. And I just

878
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,439
Speaker 1: I think it was a different relationship in a different

879
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: childhood at a different time than it is with my kids.

880
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: Because that's what I would do with my kids now,

881
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,720
Speaker 1: if they were ever at the point of not speaking

882
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: to each other for a significant period of time, I

883
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: would put them in a room together and be like,

884
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,040
Speaker 1: you are going to figure this out. There is no

885
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: way this is happening in our family. But my family

886
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 1: was different. My family was different. Growing up. My parents

887
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: worked full time at a disabled brother. Like I said,

888
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 1: they had a lot of issues. We had my grandparents

889
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: living with us. My grandfather had dementia, my grandmother had

890
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 1: pancreatic cancer. Like it was a lot going on, and

891
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: no one had time for the shit fights between me

892
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: and my sister. What about this scenario. What about when

893
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 1: let's say our kids one day, if they decide to

894
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 1: get married and something happens with your daughter in law

895
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 1: or your son in law and you or you know,

896
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: I think about there's you always hear about that. That's

897
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 1: such a statistic.

898
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 2: It's such a difficult relationship, that in law relationship. I

899
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: was very lucky. I got a mother in law and

900
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 2: a father in law who unfortunately aren't here anymore, but

901
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 2: who were just wonderful in every single way. But you

902
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:24,920
Speaker 2: hear all the time about that relationship and how difficult

903
00:48:24,960 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: it is, and then you see relationships and brothers and

904
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: sisters and mothers and sons and daughters and being torn apart, right, Yeah,

905
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 2: and that must be.

906
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 1: Just a bit. That must be I like you, I'm

907
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 1: so fortunate. I love my mother and father in law

908
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 1: so much. They're really I mean, my mother in law

909
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: is amazing, my father in law is like the warmest

910
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 1: person that you can imagine, and my parents are very

911
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: good to my husband. So I don't have to deal

912
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 1: with it in my life. And I would hope that

913
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: you know, despite what you see it you see things

914
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,400
Speaker 1: on the show, I really am very open to always

915
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: trying to work things out with people. No relationship or

916
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 1: friendship has ever closed off to me unless you really

917
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: do something horrific. So I'm hoping that having that mindset

918
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 1: keeps that from ever happening. Now, if my son marries

919
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: an asshole, or even with that, let's say, let's.

920
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: Say that your son marries an asshole, and so you

921
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 2: stop speaking to each other, and for whatever reason, his

922
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,960
Speaker 2: wife hates your guts or you hate whatever it is,

923
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 2: do you as the mother, Do you ever give up?

924
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 2: Do you always keep trying to?

925
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: Do? You know your children?

926
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:40,680
Speaker 2: I can't, I can't, I know, but it happens. It

927
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:44,400
Speaker 2: happens as a very complicated difference. So or imagine that,

928
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 2: you know, like one of us, I didn't like or

929
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 2: my father in law and it was so bad that

930
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 2: I didn't want anything to do with him or didn't

931
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,240
Speaker 2: want him to have anything to do with my children.

932
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,719
Speaker 2: And my husband is put in that position of having

933
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 2: to use right in a way. That's a tough line.

934
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 2: I don't I don't know what I'm marry. Lucky me

935
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,920
Speaker 2: to have avoided that, but yeah, and I think as

936
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 2: a I don't know because I don't have grandchildren, and

937
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 2: you know, I don't know what the future holds. I

938
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,959
Speaker 2: would think that no matter what, my kids ain't getting

939
00:50:16,960 --> 00:50:19,439
Speaker 2: away from me, like no matter what.

940
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 1: No matter I think. And this is going to sound

941
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 1: a little but that might be naive, veryo typical, but

942
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:28,879
Speaker 1: I think your son, you obviously have to let them

943
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: love their wife more and that man, I.

944
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 2: Don't know how I'm going to be differently, you know,

945
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 2: I don't know how that's going to feel, but I

946
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 2: I hope that I wouldn't need if it meant that

947
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,439
Speaker 2: I had to bend, and you know, I had, and

948
00:50:43,520 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 2: I think as you get older that's harder and harder,

949
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 2: but change some things and just boundaries. I would hope

950
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 2: that I would do anything and everything right. Like being

951
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:56,319
Speaker 2: a strange from your kid has got to just be

952
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 2: a bitch.

953
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't even want to think about that. But

954
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:01,799
Speaker 1: I also don't want to be up my kids' assholes,

955
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 1: like when they're when they have their own families. I

956
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: don't want to live with them and raise their children.

957
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 1: I want to obviously be so super close, but I

958
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: want to spend my fourth quarter traveling. I missed out

959
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: on a lot because of my illness, and I want

960
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: to spend my fourth quarter traveling and having you know,

961
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 1: I just you know, doing living my life.

962
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:30,440
Speaker 2: That's another We've done an episode about this, but I

963
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 2: think that that's so huge. Like my mom to this day,

964
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: she runs and I'm not even exaggerating, it's like sounds ridiculous,

965
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 2: but she runs five miles or she swims one hundred

966
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 2: and fifty laps. Then she goes and she plays maaj on.

967
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,919
Speaker 2: She was taking current affairs classes and not just that

968
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,799
Speaker 2: she is. She was never she was always busy, Like,

969
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:53,959
Speaker 2: she wasn't just doting all the time.

970
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: She had a life.

971
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: And she used to say to me when I would

972
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 2: get pissed because she didn't do something for me, for

973
00:51:58,400 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 2: I got a life.

974
00:52:01,640 --> 00:52:04,919
Speaker 1: I was also a very present grandmother. Oh my god,

975
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: my kids were. See my mother is like right, like

976
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:13,080
Speaker 1: raised my sister's kids with her. I like the most,

977
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: like she would live at my house with me. But

978
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,719
Speaker 1: I'm not that person. I adore my mother. We've had

979
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: our tough times, but I adore my mother, and my

980
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,479
Speaker 1: kids love her so much. They love both my parents

981
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:28,560
Speaker 1: so much. But I won't be the grandparent who's always now.

982
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 2: My mother was not like. She wasn't my go to babysitter.

983
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: First of all, she lived on Long Island and there's

984
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,920
Speaker 2: a lot of Jeff Fesster. I lived in New Jersey.

985
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: I just kidding, just kidding, love New Jersey. But anyway,

986
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 2: so she couldn't right. But she was also busy, you know,

987
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 2: and to this day is busy. And I think as

988
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 2: a result of that, happier. I think maybe I'm wrong,

989
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 2: Maybe those maybe there are those relationships, and maybe as

990
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 2: I get older, I'll be happier, you know, living for

991
00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 2: my grandkids. But I kind of think I'm going to

992
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: take my mom's lead.

993
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're going to be traveling the world with me. Yes,

994
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: we have lots of places to go.

995
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 2: That is also I mean, that's that's the hope, right,

996
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 2: that's the fourth quarter hope, and not just that I'm

997
00:53:13,200 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 2: just traveling the world.

998
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: But just you know, by the way, we're not on

999
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 1: the fourth quarter. We're not. I was about to say

1000
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:19,959
Speaker 1: that's the fourth quarter. No, I think fourth quarter. People

1001
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 1: are living longer now, so I think, like, if you

1002
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: live till what eighty five ninety, fourth quarter is not

1003
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 1: until like late sixties. So let's thank it's just Russia. Yeah,

1004
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: we're not rushing it. I'm sorry. Maybe I meant the

1005
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 1: you know, the back What does Evan say? He refers

1006
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 1: to everything in golf terms? Back nine. I won't understand

1007
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: any of that. Yeah, that's one thing I won't be

1008
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: doing in my third or fourth course. No, no, no, no,

1009
00:53:42,520 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: you want to know just a quick story. When I

1010
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 1: was looking for jobs and I was in law school

1011
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: and my father is a very like different time. You know.

1012
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: This was in the nineties. I graduated law school in

1013
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:56,480
Speaker 1: O one. But I was looking for jobs in like

1014
00:53:56,520 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: two thousand and I had very strong grades. I had

1015
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: a lot of great interviews. Law firms lined up, and

1016
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,560
Speaker 1: my father took me aside, and you said, I want

1017
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: you to take a few golf lessons, because when you're

1018
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: sitting down for an interview, I want you to be

1019
00:54:10,719 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 1: able to talk about golf with the partners. So did

1020
00:54:13,360 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: my grandparents.

1021
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: They said all the time, you have to either golf

1022
00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 2: or tennis, neither. But so they would harp on me

1023
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,120
Speaker 2: about it, and I was like, no, thanks to it.

1024
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: Right, not my father, but just like the world that

1025
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: you have to know about golf to impress a male partner.

1026
00:54:30,080 --> 00:54:32,240
Speaker 2: And also right, I think that was probably I was single,

1027
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,239
Speaker 2: but also they just thought that was the way to

1028
00:54:34,280 --> 00:54:34,760
Speaker 2: meet people.

1029
00:54:34,960 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, without I took a few golf lessons, and

1030
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 1: I'm not ashamed to say that I think it's the

1031
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: most boring sport in the whole world. And I haven't

1032
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: sell attraction. I do t I do like tennis.

1033
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,840
Speaker 2: No, I have no interest, although sometimes I think pickleball

1034
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 2: sounds like and not that it sounds appealing to me,

1035
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 2: but because so many people love it and because you

1036
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 2: don't apparently need a lot of athletic ability.

1037
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 1: Who knows, I don't know anything about pickle well, but

1038
00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 1: let me wrap by saying this, I think you're very

1039
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: lucky because I think I've met your mother and I've

1040
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:09,320
Speaker 1: met your sister many times, and your sister is wonderful.

1041
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 1: And I'm you know, even though it's more the idea

1042
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: of my of us sister, I'm there's a piece of

1043
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 1: me that is jealous and that does get sad on

1044
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,800
Speaker 1: like sister holidays. And I don't even know what I

1045
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: would say to my sister if she's listening. You know,

1046
00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm always I'm not going to reach out and try, really,

1047
00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: but I'm always open to coming back, not even coming

1048
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 1: back together because we never were together. But I know

1049
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 1: you're not sad about it. But even I'm getting choked

1050
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,439
Speaker 1: up just yeah, I mean, because it does. It does

1051
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: feel like avoid avoid of the idea of it, but

1052
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 1: not avoid of the actual person. But I don't know.

1053
00:55:44,239 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: I'm sometimes curious if there would be something there because

1054
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:50,240
Speaker 1: we are blood. But you know, it's not like something's

1055
00:55:50,280 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: missing in my life. It's the idea of it that's missing.

1056
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 1: But that being said, you know they're they're very nuanced.

1057
00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:02,719
Speaker 1: The family estrangements very nuanced. It's never an easy like

1058
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: this is what happened, and this is why. You know,

1059
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure there's always a million sides to the story,

1060
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 1: but you know it's hard for anyone going through it,

1061
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: no matter how long you've been estranged. Yeah.

1062
00:56:11,320 --> 00:56:14,320
Speaker 2: So, uh, I guess we sum it up by saying,

1063
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:17,759
Speaker 2: what do we know? Because there are times that the

1064
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,640
Speaker 2: stranger is a good thing, yeah, for sure, right yeah,

1065
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 2: and many times where it's not.

1066
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: I think it's a good thing for me right now,

1067
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 1: like my life is more peaceful and not having a

1068
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 1: fighting family member in it. And uh, but you know,

1069
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: let's say, like my therapist always says, let life unfold, Jackie,

1070
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:39,600
Speaker 1: stop worry so much about things you can't control. Let

1071
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: it unfold. You let me know. When you learn to

1072
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: do that, you can help me to do that.

1073
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 2: Mine says the same thing. Be present, be present, be present.

1074
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:47,920
Speaker 2: I'm like, listen, stop telling me to be present. I'm

1075
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 2: already like three years about Yeah.

1076
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 1: And anyway, this was great. I love this felt like

1077
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: therapy to me. It did it.

1078
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 2: It's like it's nice also that it was kind of

1079
00:56:56,960 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 2: just us delving in. Yeah, I hope you guys, I

1080
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, we're not therapist, so I don't

1081
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 2: think we could have helped you in Anybody in the

1082
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 2: comments we're sharing at least maybe shared experiences.

1083
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, And trust me, I think it'd be

1084
00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: hard pressed to find many people who don't have at

1085
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 1: least one very tough, toxic relationship in their family. Agreed.

1086
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, on that happy note, Love to you all, Love

1087
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:20,160
Speaker 2: you guys, I see you next time.

1088
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: Bye bye