WEBVTT - Inside Canon Alberic's Scrap-Book 0:00:03.400 --> 0:00:21.159 A centeral as a protection of My Heart Radio. This 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:25.680 is a companion piece to our Halloween special canon Albrick's Scrapbook, 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:30.200 also available today. If you haven't listened to that episode already, 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.200 you may want to start there, as we'll be delving 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:36.239 deeper into the classic M. R. James ghost story that 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:41.000 is the subject of that adaptation. While James is best 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:44.680 remembered today as a short form horror author, in his 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.960 time he was a well respected medievalist scholar responsible for 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:54.160 cataloging all kinds of esoteric artifacts, and this connection is 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:59.920 apparent in his fiction, which winds detailed descriptions of locations, buildings, art, 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.600 and ephemera in details of the other worldly. While some 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:10.320 are imagined, others are very real. The effect is undeniable, 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.760 the level of detail in his writing in parts, and 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:19.199 almost documentary quality to the work. The question then becomes, 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:21.880 how does one sort out the fact from the fiction. 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.760 It's actually been quite difficult for a long time for 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:29.120 people to separate these things. But it's almost close to 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:32.520 meta fiction in the sense that the real and the 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.880 fictional are so closely entwined in some of the stories 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:40.400 that you can't really pick them apart. Author Helen Grant, 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.920 herself a writer of ghost stories, has turned a lifelong 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:49.440 fascination of the author's work into an interesting project. Whenever 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:53.080 she is able, Helen travels to the real places cited 0:01:53.080 --> 0:01:56.760 in James's stories to see for herself and share with 0:01:56.800 --> 0:02:01.000 others what elements in his fiction a drawn from the life. 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.480 In two thousand four, Helen took a trip to a 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:10.560 historic French town near the Pyrenees called St. Bertrand de Commange, 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.920 the real life setting of Kennan Albert's scrap book. She 0:02:15.080 --> 0:02:17.680 joined me from her home in Perthshire to talk about 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.760 that trip, the work of m R James, where this 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:26.800 fascination began, and much more. Do you do about of 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:31.800 interviews about m R James UM? I haven't done many 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:34.639 interviews about him, and not recently anyway, but I've I've 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:39.079 been at a couple of conferences and spoken about him UM, 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:41.120 at one of which somebody came up to me and 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.360 told me, in the manner of somebody delivering a great compliment, 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:46.839 that they didn't know that people who were non academics 0:02:46.840 --> 0:02:52.640 could write that well, so thank you. I think I'm 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.320 essentially a writer, a novelist, but I also write short 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.280 stories as well short ghost stories. But I guess the 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.440 reason why you're in trusted in me today is because 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.720 I'm a passionate fan of the English ghost story writer 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.520 M R. James. I've been a fan of his since 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:11.600 I was a kid, when my dad used to retell 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:13.840 the stories to us on long car journeys to kind 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:16.640 of keep us amused. So they've always been with me. 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.760 And some years ago, kind of a propos of this interest, 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:23.920 I found myself living quite close to Steinfeld Abbey in 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:27.840 Germany and realized that that was the real life setting 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.840 of one of m. R James's stories, The Treasure of 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.680 Abbott Thomas. So I went to visit it and wrote 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.520 an article for the small press magazine Ghosts and Scholars 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:40.160 about whether it was like the story is. And after 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:42.080 that I kind of got the bit between my teeth 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:46.920 and started to visit his other site. So I visited St. 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:53.000 Bertrand de Commage, the Borg and also Marcelia Lahia as 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.560 well as Steinfeld. Will you tell me which stories those 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:03.080 those are pertained to? Right? So obviously Commage relates to 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.480 cannon All Brick Scrapbook, which we're talking about today. V 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:11.800 Ball relates to a story called Number thirteen, um Steinfeld Abbey, 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:17.080 The Treasure of Abbott Thomas, and Marsili Lahia stories I 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.719 have tried to write, which is kind of a fragmentary 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:22.000 sort of thing that he wrote. That's got bits of 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.520 things he started on and didn't quite finish. I don't 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:28.400 I know the other ones. I don't know that one. Well, 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:32.600 it's not one of his better known ones. Stories I 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.960 have tried to read to write. Yes, wow, I'm gonna 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.640 have to check that sounds so cool. Yeah, do check 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:41.800 it out because I think, you know, there's an opportunity 0:04:41.839 --> 0:04:43.680 there for somebody to finish some of those or to 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:45.800 actually write something. There were things that he kind of 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.920 started on and had a good idea and didn't really 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:53.080 go anywhere in the end. Oh, it's so interesting. And 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:56.320 you said your dad would retell them to you in 0:04:56.360 --> 0:04:59.000 the cars that we taught me. Yes, yes, I mean 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:01.919 my father, who's now in his eighties, has some of 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:06.040 those stories almost off the batim. I would say, um, 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.920 and he would, and he would tell them to it. 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:13.560 So in a particular favorite was Wailing Well, which I 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:17.200 don't know if you've read that one. Yeah, it was 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:21.720 written by Mr James to amuse Um a party of 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:24.640 boy Scouts, and it's set in the same sort of 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:27.720 camping area that they were camping in, and it's about 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.359 how there's a well there which is haunted by some 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:34.320 sort of quite unpleasant vampiric type of ghosts, and the 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.040 boys are told, you know, you may camp here, but 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.680 obviously you mustn't get water from this well. So of course, 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.120 what does one of them do but go to get 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:50.480 water from the well and Pandora's box. Yeah, exactly. But 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:53.839 there's there's a lot of humor in this story which 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:56.320 I didn't at all understand when I was a child, 0:05:56.880 --> 0:05:59.359 So I found this very very curious because there's some 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.720 bits it's talking about the scout trip and about, for example, 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.320 they had a life saving competition where they used to 0:06:05.720 --> 0:06:07.760 tie up one of the smaller boys and throw him 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.039 into the cuckoo weir and the other boys had to 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:13.360 rescue him. And this particular naughty boy, the one that 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.640 goes and gets water later on, used to always pretend 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:18.400 that he had cramp or something and while he was 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.280 rolling around on the ground, people will be drowning. And 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.960 it says in the story that you know it was 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.599 becoming troublesome for the school because the parents were no 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:28.919 longer satisfied with the form letter that they used to 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:31.760 send out saying unfortunately your child is dead. And when 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:33.760 I was a child, I didn't understand this at all. 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:37.160 I thought, you know, how can they be so cavalier? 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:41.240 Now it made sense, but but then it really didn't. 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:45.000 How much do you know about m R James's back story? 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.440 Goodness me, what a question. More than most people do, 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:50.599 but a lot less than the experts, I guess, is 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:53.320 the answer to that. That's okay, so I know a 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:59.160 little bit. I know that he was medievalist scalt right, 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.560 Yes he was, Yes, King's College, Cambridge or something like Yes, 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:07.680 and and also Eaton College as well. Yeah, and I 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.880 think I mean in his time he was probably better 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:12.480 known as a medievalist than than he was as a 0:07:12.520 --> 0:07:16.080 short story writer. But now everybody remembers his his short stories. 0:07:16.480 --> 0:07:18.320 It was kind of a Christmas thing as well, that 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.520 there was always a ghost story, and that he would 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:23.200 read them aloud, so everybody would come around whose rooms 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.960 or whatever and in the college and listen to them. Um, 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:33.080 that's a very Victorian tradition that the ghost story at Christmas. Absolutely. 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:35.720 I mean I think I have heard it said that 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:38.760 a ghost story at Christmas is more traditional than a 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.000 ghost story at Halloween. In fact, I mean that was 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.920 the time of year that that people associated with ghost stories. 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.760 Do Christmas ghost stories in your life, yes, But then 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:53.880 I mean I do ghost stories all year round, So 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.880 you know, I always feel slightly miffed when it gets 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.480 to Halloween and everybody's all about you know, the vampires 0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.960 and more says and stuff, and I felt, well, you know, 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.920 I was into it before it was Cools life. The 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:08.960 thing that really gets me about m R James style 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:14.320 is that there's so much specificity about the places that 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:19.800 he's talking about about the documents that he's describing, uh, 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:22.560 and and and the and the figures in in documents, 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:25.440 you know, like architectural drawings or like the mesa tant 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.800 for instance, he's describing you know, this very specific measure 0:08:29.840 --> 0:08:33.160 tant in this specific catalogue from this you know, this 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:37.520 specific vendor that has like this kind of work and um, 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.360 and his characters are always so such brilliant. Um, you know, 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:45.080 scholars of all this stuff, and they just rattled through 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:48.480 all this verbiage that you know, if if you're not 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.360 you know, at Cambridge studying that kind of stuff, or 0:08:51.400 --> 0:08:53.800 you know from that are you might have no idea 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:55.880 or not a Catholic. I'm not a Catholic, and so 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:58.240 I kind of get it from the context clues, but 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:01.160 a lot of it flies by just I don't have 0:09:01.280 --> 0:09:05.480 the same depth of understandings as he does rating it, 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:09.920 but it has this profound effect of I don't know, 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.840 making it almost feel like a like a documentary. There's 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:17.400 there's so much like reality intertwined with with the fiction 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:21.120 that it's like what parts did he make up? It is? 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.040 I think it's it's actually been quite difficult for a 0:09:24.040 --> 0:09:27.199 long time for people to separate these things because in 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:31.439 his stories there are some real life locations that are 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.839 very accurately described, and there are some real life locations 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.679 that have you know, terrific errors in them. I mean, 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:41.040 for example, and the Treasure of Abbott Thomas, he never 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.720 actually went to Stanfeld Abbey, although I have been myself, 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.959 um and so he for example, had got the stained 0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.640 glass windows as being in the abbey church, but they weren't. 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:52.760 They were in the cloisters. So the ones that he 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:59.040 saw later on, when they've been put into um Ashridge House. 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.400 They didn't actually come from the church, they came from 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.640 the cloister, so so that was an error. Some other things. 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:08.719 I mean that the church at command is pretty accurately described. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.720 The crocodile I don't think has ever hung over the font. 0:10:12.800 --> 0:10:15.800 It's actually on the wall. We have to go there. 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.199 We have jump right to the crocodile. So when did 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:23.200 you go to Commande Um? I went in that, I think. 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.079 Let me see, I've written it down here somewhere. I 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.520 think it was May two thousand and four. Was it 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:34.240 expressly to to check out the scene of Kennan Elbrick 0:10:34.760 --> 0:10:39.440 and rigorously vet all of the information in his story. Yes, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:43.800 it was, I've been. I mean I I flew down 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:47.200 to Um I think to Montpellier from Germany, where we 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.080 were living at the time, specifically to look at St. 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:52.200 Bernt Un the Commands, and I met my father who 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:53.720 was who was down there, I think he was staying 0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:57.320 in Carcasson or somewhere, and we drove to Commands. We 0:10:57.360 --> 0:11:00.240 stayed there and night, we did the cathedral, exhaust most 0:11:00.240 --> 0:11:02.439 of Lee, and then I flew back again. I went 0:11:02.440 --> 0:11:06.960 down specifically to look at that's very much like you 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:09.600 were the Dennis Dune of the story. You realize, like, 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:11.480 that's what you did, the same thing that he did. 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:14.240 I'm totally going to get myself in the same sort 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:18.320 of trouble one of these days to because I have 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.800 kind of a track record of doing this, um, sort 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:24.000 of just flying off to look at these places or 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:26.400 traveling off to see them. But yeah, that was when 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.320 I went was in two thousand and four. Did you 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.360 have kind of a hit list of the things that 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:34.000 you knew you needed to to see to try and 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.120 to try and find from the story? Um? Yeah, I guess. 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.200 I mean I really had no idea until I got 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:43.839 there whether it was going to be exactly the same 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:45.920 as the story. Um, so there was a lot of 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.400 stuff in the church that I wanted to see. But 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.120 the other question was, there's there's certain other places in 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:56.439 the story, the Sacristan's house which Denniston goes to. Would 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:59.280 it be possible to identify that? And I spent quite 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:01.959 a long time sort of on that particular quest looking 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:03.719 for that. So so yes, I did have sort of 0:12:03.760 --> 0:12:07.080 a hit list of things that I wanted to see. 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:12.000 Did Um I think that James himself did go to 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:16.200 command straight. Yes he did. Yes, Yeah, he went in 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.720 March eighteen two, and so he read a story like 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:23.160 for four years later or something like that. Yeah, the 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:27.400 story was published three years later in March eighteen But 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:31.120 yes he went there. And as it happens, whilst I 0:12:31.200 --> 0:12:36.040 was in commandage investigating the place, I bought a book 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:39.160 which i've I've got here. It's it's in French. It's 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:42.400 a very esoteric book. It's by somebody called Louis de 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.360 Fiance Dagos, who was a baron of somewhere or other. 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.480 And it's called v a Miracula de Saint BERTRANDU notice 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:54.040 history Villa Eliza Victor Commage, which means the life and 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.640 Miracles of St. Bertrand with a historical notice on the 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.719 town and the bishops bishops have come. And this was 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.560 written in eighteen fifty four, so that it was somewhat 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.800 before Mr James. It was closer to his visit than 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:10.640 my visit was, if you see what I mean. So 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:13.120 I also used that in the sense of kind of 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.120 understanding what the place had been been like in a 0:13:17.160 --> 0:13:20.800 more kind of a separate description from Mr James. Is 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.559 that book sounds like the kind of thing that m R. 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:31.800 James would mention in a story. Yes, it probably, hope, yes, um. 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.000 And it had some fabulous stuff in it. I mean, 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:35.920 there's an awful lot of stuff which now I think 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.120 would seem seem a bit dull, but there was there 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:43.000 was some splendid renditions of of the tombs in the cathedral. 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:45.440 There was there was one bit that I'll see if 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.400 I can find it for you, that there's there's a 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:52.640 tomb out in in uh in the quadrangle outside, and 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.600 there's a Latin inscription in it which he translates as 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.080 there it lies in its tomb, that rose of the world, 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:02.600 now fouled and withered. It no longer gives out its 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.920 sweet smell, but that which emits from the dust of 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:15.160 the tombst Yes, indeed its splendidly morbid. I think, can 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:19.160 you describe for me the cathedral itself? I mean, is 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.840 maybe just maybe just the town even, I mean, like 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.200 the way he describes the town is very palpable in 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:29.120 the story, like as it everything bears the aspect of 0:14:29.160 --> 0:14:33.480 decaying age something like that. Yeah, And I think it's 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.640 it's still did to a certain extent. At the time 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.200 when I went to see it. I mean it's a 0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:42.360 peculiar sort of place because I think though originally I 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:45.800 believe it had about a thousand inhabitants, it had I 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:48.120 think about two hundred at the time that he visited, 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.200 and I don't think that's that's much different now. And 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:55.000 you have basically this sort of very old town clustered 0:14:55.160 --> 0:14:57.200 around a little hill and at the very top of 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.080 the hill, and it's a small hill, you know, it's 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.160 not a big, sprawling hill. It's a small kind of 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:03.400 round hill and on the very top of it is 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:05.800 the cathedral, so you can see it from miles and 0:15:05.880 --> 0:15:09.320 miles around. And the old part of the town is 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:12.640 also mostly very old building, sort of stone built building, 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:15.120 some of them dating back to the fifteen hundreds or whatever, 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:17.840 so really old. And so you kind of walk up 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:19.920 through winding streets and it's when you get to the 0:15:20.000 --> 0:15:22.360 top of the hill that there is the cathedral, and 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.640 I think parts of it are Romanesque, so yeah, I 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:28.960 mean pretty old, and then sort of later bits grafted on. 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:33.440 So there's a little square in front of it, which 0:15:33.480 --> 0:15:35.520 is very very sleepy. I mean, I wouldn't say that 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.680 it was decayed so much when when I visited, it's 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.480 just very very quiet. There was a nice little hotel 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.800 there with kind of some chairs and umbrellas outside, but 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:48.680 very sleepy. Um. And then a kind of a square 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.560 in front of the church. You go up to the 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.720 church and there's there's a big door with a stone 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:57.880 kind of stone archway outside it, and a nice carving 0:15:57.920 --> 0:15:59.720 that you can see on the way in showing and 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.600 eyes are being with the money bag being swallowed up 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:06.480 by some kind of horrible monster or something, so you know, 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.960 and a nice reminder as you go into church, I 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:11.960 guess to to behave yourself. And then once you get 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:16.600 inside the church, it's quite an extraordinary place because although 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:20.120 a lot of churches of that age had their rude 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:23.440 screens removed, so that's kind of a piece of internal 0:16:23.600 --> 0:16:27.800 architecture that originally separated um, kind of the general public 0:16:28.120 --> 0:16:31.000 and the sort of in inverted commas, more important people 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:35.000 who were taking part in the ceremonies. Um. That that's 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:36.800 been removed in a lot of churches now so you 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.040 don't often see them, but there there still is one, 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:42.800 and in fact there's an entire kind of wooden church 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:46.240 inside the stone one. So you've got this um, this 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.880 kind of wooden chancel that was built I think by 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:53.000 Bishop gen de molion Um. And if you go inside that, 0:16:53.080 --> 0:16:56.160 it's kind of completely enclosed area made out of polished 0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.560 woods with a kind of mad number of carvings everywhere, 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.520 and there's all sorts of things. There's Adam and Eve, 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:07.400 there's there's demons, there's um, there's skulls. There's somebody having 0:17:07.440 --> 0:17:09.639 his bottom smacked with a bunch of birch twigs. I 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.800 don't know what that one was about, um, and just 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:14.600 all sorts of stuff like that as well. I mean, 0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.080 it's an absolute profusion. You could just look at it 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:22.080 for ages. UM. Outside that there's also a massive great 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.800 church organ up against one wall, and that I believe 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:28.840 at the time that Mr James visited was in a 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.239 very dilapidated state, but in the nineties seventies it was 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:35.160 restored m and they now have an organ festival there 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:37.520 every year so you can go and listen to fantastic 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:42.680 church music inside there. Did you get to hear it? Um? 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.040 You know, I don't think anybody was playing it when 0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.760 we went. I've thought about that, um, as I said, 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:50.320 and it was it was seventeen years ago that I visited, 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.640 so so I have to think a little bit about 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.919 about some of the things I saw. But one of 0:17:55.920 --> 0:17:58.160 the things that I noticed when I was in there 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:02.280 was the accoup sticks inside, and I think that if 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:04.520 there had been music playing, I would remember it because 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:10.000 of that. There's a bit in the story where where 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.479 Denniston is kind of thinking about the environment he's in 0:18:13.680 --> 0:18:16.639 and kind of slightly uneasy about it, and he says 0:18:16.720 --> 0:18:19.480 that from time to time he can hear sort of 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.439 footsteps and voices and stuff like that. And one of 0:18:22.480 --> 0:18:24.800 the things I noticed was that when you're in that church, 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.960 you can't hear anything from outside at all, nothing because 0:18:27.960 --> 0:18:32.320 they're very, very sick stone walls. But inside, um, there's 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:35.200 such great acoustics that, you know, a footfall sounds like 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.920 a gunshot. So whatever he was hearing in the story 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:39.960 was coming from inside the church. So if he thought 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.080 he heard kind of rustling and footsteps and stuff, you know, 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:45.920 it wasn't. It wasn't from outside. It was something inside 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.160 with him. He says, something like hushed voices and muffled 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:52.640 footfalls and all the strange sounds that plagued an old 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:57.840 building exactly, So that would all have been inside with him. 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:00.600 He does call the Oregon Dilopida the two there's a yeah, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.240 I think he does. Yeah, it's the wooden Church is 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:08.360 like inside of the stone Church. Yes, yeah, I mean 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.600 I'm not an expert on on on church history, though 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:13.960 I'm interested in it, but I think that it would 0:19:13.960 --> 0:19:15.920 have been kind of the officials of the church who 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.280 were inside, and the choir as well, because there's choir 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:23.000 stalls and stuff like that. Um. And at the point 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.639 where other churches were having to take this sort of 0:19:25.680 --> 0:19:29.680 stuff out because it wasn't considered inclusive, what they did 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:34.600 instead was to put in another altar outside that so that, um, 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.200 you know, so that it wasn't necessary to destroy anything 0:19:37.280 --> 0:19:41.520 for people to take part in in the whole service. Yeah. 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:47.719 So so, so that is why it's remained intact. I'm 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:49.880 trying to think if there's any other features that particularly 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.680 stuck out. There's the there's a tomb of Hugh de Castillon, 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:59.080 which is probably the only really fine tomb inside the church, 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:01.960 and that's kind of a gothic thing, kind of white marble, 0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:05.040 with him sort of lying there in state with a 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:07.560 sort of canopy thing over his head and under his feet. 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:09.560 There's a dragon. I think it's eating a little dog 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:16.080 or something. Which is it? Mean? Um, and that, if anything, 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:20.000 might have inspired canon all bricks tomb in the story, 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:24.000 because you know that that doesn't in fact exist. Well, uh, 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:29.400 what is that? Two? You can see the figure? Yes, yes, 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:30.800 it's one of these ones that has a kind of 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.959 a figure line on top, so it almost looks like 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:37.159 there's a kind of um, sort of a table or 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.399 a box or something other with carvings all around the side, 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:42.200 and then on the top there's a figure lining there 0:20:42.240 --> 0:20:44.280 with I think with folded hands and kind of a 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:49.800 Gothic canopy over the top and these animals under his feet. Wow. There, No, 0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:53.800 that's not the you know, I grew up in non 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:57.480 denominational American churches. We don't have those sorts of things 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:02.080 that really used process. Um. Yeah, that's and and and 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:04.760 one of the things you wrote about in your article 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.840 is that there's this there's this blending of like, um, 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:14.919 Christian and Catholic iconography and then uh, like pagan carvings 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.720 and figures and things mixed in, right, Yeah, and that 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.240 that is a very strange thing. And you know, it's 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:24.560 still I find that difficult to get my head around. Um. 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:31.240 Apparently Bishop jen considered himself a humanist. Um. And and 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:34.600 that's genderman who's feature who Actually he's a real person 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.399 that features in the story. He doesn't feature in the story. 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:39.520 The person that features in the story is a fictional 0:21:39.640 --> 0:21:43.440 member of the family called Ulberick. But they I'm sorry, 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:47.560 but they mentioned him as a descendant of Yes, yes, 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:49.720 but he doesn't. I mean that that's as far as 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:52.000 he features. But but yes, yeah, he was. He was 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.800 a real person. But there are various sort of characters 0:21:55.840 --> 0:21:59.760 in there, including rather weirdly, Julius Caesar. I mean, nobody 0:21:59.840 --> 0:22:04.200 really knows why that is. Because humanists sometimes considered that 0:22:04.320 --> 0:22:07.040 Pagans could be considered, in a way kind of Christian 0:22:07.160 --> 0:22:08.800 if they had the right sort of point of view 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.240 where you could interpret sort of what they said as being, 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:14.280 you know, a search for Christian truth or whatever, then okay, 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:17.160 you know, we're going to count these good people as Christians. 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:19.560 But you know, Julius Caesar, that was stretching it a bit, 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:23.600 So nobody really knows why that was. But yeah, there's 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:26.480 there's there's a lot of these images inside the church. 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:29.560 I think there's actually the labors of Heracles as well, 0:22:30.320 --> 0:22:34.520 So you know, it's hard to know how those fit in. Okay, 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.640 what about the crocodile. I know you you're already bright 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:39.360 and up. It's hard. It's hard to ms the crack 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.080 and it just it just is a blip in the story, 0:22:42.160 --> 0:22:46.560 like he doesn't explain the crocodile at all. Yeah, the 0:22:46.640 --> 0:22:51.840 crocodile is one of um, I believe nine crocodiles which 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:57.600 are preserved in churches in France. Um. And you know, 0:22:57.640 --> 0:23:01.080 according to the local legends saying Bertrand is supposed to 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.760 have seen off a crocodile which lived in a nearby 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:06.160 river and which was picking off all the young women 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:07.879