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Speaker 1: A centeral as a protection of My Heart Radio. This

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Speaker 1: is a companion piece to our Halloween special canon Albrick's Scrapbook,

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Speaker 1: also available today. If you haven't listened to that episode already,

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Speaker 1: you may want to start there, as we'll be delving

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Speaker 1: deeper into the classic M. R. James ghost story that

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Speaker 1: is the subject of that adaptation. While James is best

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Speaker 1: remembered today as a short form horror author, in his

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Speaker 1: time he was a well respected medievalist scholar responsible for

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Speaker 1: cataloging all kinds of esoteric artifacts, and this connection is

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Speaker 1: apparent in his fiction, which winds detailed descriptions of locations, buildings, art,

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Speaker 1: and ephemera in details of the other worldly. While some

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Speaker 1: are imagined, others are very real. The effect is undeniable,

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Speaker 1: the level of detail in his writing in parts, and

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Speaker 1: almost documentary quality to the work. The question then becomes,

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Speaker 1: how does one sort out the fact from the fiction.

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Speaker 1: It's actually been quite difficult for a long time for

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Speaker 1: people to separate these things. But it's almost close to

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Speaker 1: meta fiction in the sense that the real and the

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Speaker 1: fictional are so closely entwined in some of the stories

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Speaker 1: that you can't really pick them apart. Author Helen Grant,

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Speaker 1: herself a writer of ghost stories, has turned a lifelong

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Speaker 1: fascination of the author's work into an interesting project. Whenever

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Speaker 1: she is able, Helen travels to the real places cited

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Speaker 1: in James's stories to see for herself and share with

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Speaker 1: others what elements in his fiction a drawn from the life.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand four, Helen took a trip to a

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Speaker 1: historic French town near the Pyrenees called St. Bertrand de Commange,

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Speaker 1: the real life setting of Kennan Albert's scrap book. She

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Speaker 1: joined me from her home in Perthshire to talk about

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Speaker 1: that trip, the work of m R James, where this

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Speaker 1: fascination began, and much more. Do you do about of

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Speaker 1: interviews about m R James UM? I haven't done many

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Speaker 1: interviews about him, and not recently anyway, but I've I've

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Speaker 1: been at a couple of conferences and spoken about him UM,

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Speaker 1: at one of which somebody came up to me and

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Speaker 1: told me, in the manner of somebody delivering a great compliment,

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Speaker 1: that they didn't know that people who were non academics

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Speaker 1: could write that well, so thank you. I think I'm

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Speaker 1: essentially a writer, a novelist, but I also write short

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Speaker 1: stories as well short ghost stories. But I guess the

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Speaker 1: reason why you're in trusted in me today is because

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Speaker 1: I'm a passionate fan of the English ghost story writer

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Speaker 1: M R. James. I've been a fan of his since

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Speaker 1: I was a kid, when my dad used to retell

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Speaker 1: the stories to us on long car journeys to kind

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Speaker 1: of keep us amused. So they've always been with me.

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Speaker 1: And some years ago, kind of a propos of this interest,

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Speaker 1: I found myself living quite close to Steinfeld Abbey in

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Speaker 1: Germany and realized that that was the real life setting

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Speaker 1: of one of m. R James's stories, The Treasure of

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Speaker 1: Abbott Thomas. So I went to visit it and wrote

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Speaker 1: an article for the small press magazine Ghosts and Scholars

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Speaker 1: about whether it was like the story is. And after

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Speaker 1: that I kind of got the bit between my teeth

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Speaker 1: and started to visit his other site. So I visited St.

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Speaker 1: Bertrand de Commage, the Borg and also Marcelia Lahia as

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Speaker 1: well as Steinfeld. Will you tell me which stories those

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Speaker 1: those are pertained to? Right? So obviously Commage relates to

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Speaker 1: cannon All Brick Scrapbook, which we're talking about today. V

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Speaker 1: Ball relates to a story called Number thirteen, um Steinfeld Abbey,

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Speaker 1: The Treasure of Abbott Thomas, and Marsili Lahia stories I

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Speaker 1: have tried to write, which is kind of a fragmentary

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Speaker 1: sort of thing that he wrote. That's got bits of

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Speaker 1: things he started on and didn't quite finish. I don't

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Speaker 1: I know the other ones. I don't know that one. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's not one of his better known ones. Stories I

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Speaker 1: have tried to read to write. Yes, wow, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have to check that sounds so cool. Yeah, do check

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Speaker 1: it out because I think, you know, there's an opportunity

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Speaker 1: there for somebody to finish some of those or to

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Speaker 1: actually write something. There were things that he kind of

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Speaker 1: started on and had a good idea and didn't really

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Speaker 1: go anywhere in the end. Oh, it's so interesting. And

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Speaker 1: you said your dad would retell them to you in

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Speaker 1: the cars that we taught me. Yes, yes, I mean

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Speaker 1: my father, who's now in his eighties, has some of

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Speaker 1: those stories almost off the batim. I would say, um,

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Speaker 1: and he would, and he would tell them to it.

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Speaker 1: So in a particular favorite was Wailing Well, which I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you've read that one. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 1: written by Mr James to amuse Um a party of

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Speaker 1: boy Scouts, and it's set in the same sort of

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Speaker 1: camping area that they were camping in, and it's about

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Speaker 1: how there's a well there which is haunted by some

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Speaker 1: sort of quite unpleasant vampiric type of ghosts, and the

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Speaker 1: boys are told, you know, you may camp here, but

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Speaker 1: obviously you mustn't get water from this well. So of course,

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Speaker 1: what does one of them do but go to get

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Speaker 1: water from the well and Pandora's box. Yeah, exactly. But

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Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of humor in this story which

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Speaker 1: I didn't at all understand when I was a child,

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Speaker 1: So I found this very very curious because there's some

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Speaker 1: bits it's talking about the scout trip and about, for example,

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Speaker 1: they had a life saving competition where they used to

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Speaker 1: tie up one of the smaller boys and throw him

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Speaker 1: into the cuckoo weir and the other boys had to

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Speaker 1: rescue him. And this particular naughty boy, the one that

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Speaker 1: goes and gets water later on, used to always pretend

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Speaker 1: that he had cramp or something and while he was

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Speaker 1: rolling around on the ground, people will be drowning. And

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Speaker 1: it says in the story that you know it was

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Speaker 1: becoming troublesome for the school because the parents were no

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Speaker 1: longer satisfied with the form letter that they used to

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Speaker 1: send out saying unfortunately your child is dead. And when

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Speaker 1: I was a child, I didn't understand this at all.

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Speaker 1: I thought, you know, how can they be so cavalier?

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Speaker 1: Now it made sense, but but then it really didn't.

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Speaker 1: How much do you know about m R James's back story?

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Speaker 1: Goodness me, what a question. More than most people do,

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Speaker 1: but a lot less than the experts, I guess, is

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Speaker 1: the answer to that. That's okay, so I know a

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Speaker 1: little bit. I know that he was medievalist scalt right,

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Speaker 1: Yes he was, Yes, King's College, Cambridge or something like Yes,

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Speaker 1: and and also Eaton College as well. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: think I mean in his time he was probably better

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Speaker 1: known as a medievalist than than he was as a

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Speaker 1: short story writer. But now everybody remembers his his short stories.

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Speaker 1: It was kind of a Christmas thing as well, that

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Speaker 1: there was always a ghost story, and that he would

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Speaker 1: read them aloud, so everybody would come around whose rooms

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Speaker 1: or whatever and in the college and listen to them. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's a very Victorian tradition that the ghost story at Christmas. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I mean I think I have heard it said that

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Speaker 1: a ghost story at Christmas is more traditional than a

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Speaker 1: ghost story at Halloween. In fact, I mean that was

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Speaker 1: the time of year that that people associated with ghost stories.

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Speaker 1: Do Christmas ghost stories in your life, yes, But then

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Speaker 1: I mean I do ghost stories all year round, So

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Speaker 1: you know, I always feel slightly miffed when it gets

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Speaker 1: to Halloween and everybody's all about you know, the vampires

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Speaker 1: and more says and stuff, and I felt, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was into it before it was Cools life. The

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Speaker 1: thing that really gets me about m R James style

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Speaker 1: is that there's so much specificity about the places that

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Speaker 1: he's talking about about the documents that he's describing, uh,

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Speaker 1: and and and the and the figures in in documents,

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Speaker 1: you know, like architectural drawings or like the mesa tant

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Speaker 1: for instance, he's describing you know, this very specific measure

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Speaker 1: tant in this specific catalogue from this you know, this

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Speaker 1: specific vendor that has like this kind of work and um,

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Speaker 1: and his characters are always so such brilliant. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: scholars of all this stuff, and they just rattled through

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Speaker 1: all this verbiage that you know, if if you're not

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Speaker 1: you know, at Cambridge studying that kind of stuff, or

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Speaker 1: you know from that are you might have no idea

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Speaker 1: or not a Catholic. I'm not a Catholic, and so

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Speaker 1: I kind of get it from the context clues, but

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Speaker 1: a lot of it flies by just I don't have

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Speaker 1: the same depth of understandings as he does rating it,

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Speaker 1: but it has this profound effect of I don't know,

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Speaker 1: making it almost feel like a like a documentary. There's

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Speaker 1: there's so much like reality intertwined with with the fiction

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Speaker 1: that it's like what parts did he make up? It is?

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Speaker 1: I think it's it's actually been quite difficult for a

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Speaker 1: long time for people to separate these things because in

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Speaker 1: his stories there are some real life locations that are

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Speaker 1: very accurately described, and there are some real life locations

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Speaker 1: that have you know, terrific errors in them. I mean,

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Speaker 1: for example, and the Treasure of Abbott Thomas, he never

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Speaker 1: actually went to Stanfeld Abbey, although I have been myself,

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Speaker 1: um and so he for example, had got the stained

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Speaker 1: glass windows as being in the abbey church, but they weren't.

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Speaker 1: They were in the cloisters. So the ones that he

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Speaker 1: saw later on, when they've been put into um Ashridge House.

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Speaker 1: They didn't actually come from the church, they came from

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Speaker 1: the cloister, so so that was an error. Some other things.

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Speaker 1: I mean that the church at command is pretty accurately described.

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Speaker 1: The crocodile I don't think has ever hung over the font.

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Speaker 1: It's actually on the wall. We have to go there.

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Speaker 1: We have jump right to the crocodile. So when did

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Speaker 1: you go to Commande Um? I went in that, I think.

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Speaker 1: Let me see, I've written it down here somewhere. I

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Speaker 1: think it was May two thousand and four. Was it

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Speaker 1: expressly to to check out the scene of Kennan Elbrick

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Speaker 1: and rigorously vet all of the information in his story. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it was, I've been. I mean I I flew down

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Speaker 1: to Um I think to Montpellier from Germany, where we

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Speaker 1: were living at the time, specifically to look at St.

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Speaker 1: Bernt Un the Commands, and I met my father who

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Speaker 1: was who was down there, I think he was staying

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Speaker 1: in Carcasson or somewhere, and we drove to Commands. We

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Speaker 1: stayed there and night, we did the cathedral, exhaust most

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Speaker 1: of Lee, and then I flew back again. I went

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Speaker 1: down specifically to look at that's very much like you

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Speaker 1: were the Dennis Dune of the story. You realize, like,

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Speaker 1: that's what you did, the same thing that he did.

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Speaker 1: I'm totally going to get myself in the same sort

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Speaker 1: of trouble one of these days to because I have

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Speaker 1: kind of a track record of doing this, um, sort

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Speaker 1: of just flying off to look at these places or

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Speaker 1: traveling off to see them. But yeah, that was when

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Speaker 1: I went was in two thousand and four. Did you

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Speaker 1: have kind of a hit list of the things that

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Speaker 1: you knew you needed to to see to try and

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Speaker 1: to try and find from the story? Um? Yeah, I guess.

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Speaker 1: I mean I really had no idea until I got

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Speaker 1: there whether it was going to be exactly the same

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Speaker 1: as the story. Um, so there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff in the church that I wanted to see. But

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Speaker 1: the other question was, there's there's certain other places in

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Speaker 1: the story, the Sacristan's house which Denniston goes to. Would

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Speaker 1: it be possible to identify that? And I spent quite

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Speaker 1: a long time sort of on that particular quest looking

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Speaker 1: for that. So so yes, I did have sort of

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Speaker 1: a hit list of things that I wanted to see.

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Speaker 1: Did Um I think that James himself did go to

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Speaker 1: command straight. Yes he did. Yes, Yeah, he went in

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Speaker 1: March eighteen two, and so he read a story like

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Speaker 1: for four years later or something like that. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: story was published three years later in March eighteen But

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Speaker 1: yes he went there. And as it happens, whilst I

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Speaker 1: was in commandage investigating the place, I bought a book

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Speaker 1: which i've I've got here. It's it's in French. It's

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Speaker 1: a very esoteric book. It's by somebody called Louis de

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Speaker 1: Fiance Dagos, who was a baron of somewhere or other.

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Speaker 1: And it's called v a Miracula de Saint BERTRANDU notice

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Speaker 1: history Villa Eliza Victor Commage, which means the life and

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Speaker 1: Miracles of St. Bertrand with a historical notice on the

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Speaker 1: town and the bishops bishops have come. And this was

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Speaker 1: written in eighteen fifty four, so that it was somewhat

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Speaker 1: before Mr James. It was closer to his visit than

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Speaker 1: my visit was, if you see what I mean. So

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Speaker 1: I also used that in the sense of kind of

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Speaker 1: understanding what the place had been been like in a

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Speaker 1: more kind of a separate description from Mr James. Is

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Speaker 1: that book sounds like the kind of thing that m R.

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Speaker 1: James would mention in a story. Yes, it probably, hope, yes, um.

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Speaker 1: And it had some fabulous stuff in it. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's an awful lot of stuff which now I think

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Speaker 1: would seem seem a bit dull, but there was there

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Speaker 1: was some splendid renditions of of the tombs in the cathedral.

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Speaker 1: There was there was one bit that I'll see if

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Speaker 1: I can find it for you, that there's there's a

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Speaker 1: tomb out in in uh in the quadrangle outside, and

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Speaker 1: there's a Latin inscription in it which he translates as

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Speaker 1: there it lies in its tomb, that rose of the world,

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Speaker 1: now fouled and withered. It no longer gives out its

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Speaker 1: sweet smell, but that which emits from the dust of

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Speaker 1: the tombst Yes, indeed its splendidly morbid. I think, can

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Speaker 1: you describe for me the cathedral itself? I mean, is

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Speaker 1: maybe just maybe just the town even, I mean, like

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Speaker 1: the way he describes the town is very palpable in

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Speaker 1: the story, like as it everything bears the aspect of

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Speaker 1: decaying age something like that. Yeah, And I think it's

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Speaker 1: it's still did to a certain extent. At the time

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Speaker 1: when I went to see it. I mean it's a

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Speaker 1: peculiar sort of place because I think though originally I

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Speaker 1: believe it had about a thousand inhabitants, it had I

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Speaker 1: think about two hundred at the time that he visited,

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Speaker 1: and I don't think that's that's much different now. And

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Speaker 1: you have basically this sort of very old town clustered

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Speaker 1: around a little hill and at the very top of

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Speaker 1: the hill, and it's a small hill, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not a big, sprawling hill. It's a small kind of

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Speaker 1: round hill and on the very top of it is

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Speaker 1: the cathedral, so you can see it from miles and

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Speaker 1: miles around. And the old part of the town is

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Speaker 1: also mostly very old building, sort of stone built building,

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Speaker 1: some of them dating back to the fifteen hundreds or whatever,

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Speaker 1: so really old. And so you kind of walk up

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Speaker 1: through winding streets and it's when you get to the

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Speaker 1: top of the hill that there is the cathedral, and

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Speaker 1: I think parts of it are Romanesque, so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean pretty old, and then sort of later bits grafted on.

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Speaker 1: So there's a little square in front of it, which

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Speaker 1: is very very sleepy. I mean, I wouldn't say that

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Speaker 1: it was decayed so much when when I visited, it's

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Speaker 1: just very very quiet. There was a nice little hotel

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Speaker 1: there with kind of some chairs and umbrellas outside, but

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Speaker 1: very sleepy. Um. And then a kind of a square

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Speaker 1: in front of the church. You go up to the

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Speaker 1: church and there's there's a big door with a stone

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Speaker 1: kind of stone archway outside it, and a nice carving

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Speaker 1: that you can see on the way in showing and

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Speaker 1: eyes are being with the money bag being swallowed up

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Speaker 1: by some kind of horrible monster or something, so you know,

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Speaker 1: and a nice reminder as you go into church, I

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Speaker 1: guess to to behave yourself. And then once you get

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Speaker 1: inside the church, it's quite an extraordinary place because although

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Speaker 1: a lot of churches of that age had their rude

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Speaker 1: screens removed, so that's kind of a piece of internal

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Speaker 1: architecture that originally separated um, kind of the general public

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Speaker 1: and the sort of in inverted commas, more important people

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Speaker 1: who were taking part in the ceremonies. Um. That that's

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Speaker 1: been removed in a lot of churches now so you

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Speaker 1: don't often see them, but there there still is one,

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Speaker 1: and in fact there's an entire kind of wooden church

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Speaker 1: inside the stone one. So you've got this um, this

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Speaker 1: kind of wooden chancel that was built I think by

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Speaker 1: Bishop gen de molion Um. And if you go inside that,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of completely enclosed area made out of polished

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Speaker 1: woods with a kind of mad number of carvings everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and there's all sorts of things. There's Adam and Eve,

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Speaker 1: there's there's demons, there's um, there's skulls. There's somebody having

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Speaker 1: his bottom smacked with a bunch of birch twigs. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what that one was about, um, and just

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Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff like that as well. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's an absolute profusion. You could just look at it

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Speaker 1: for ages. UM. Outside that there's also a massive great

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Speaker 1: church organ up against one wall, and that I believe

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Speaker 1: at the time that Mr James visited was in a

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Speaker 1: very dilapidated state, but in the nineties seventies it was

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Speaker 1: restored m and they now have an organ festival there

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Speaker 1: every year so you can go and listen to fantastic

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Speaker 1: church music inside there. Did you get to hear it? Um?

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't think anybody was playing it when

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Speaker 1: we went. I've thought about that, um, as I said,

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Speaker 1: and it was it was seventeen years ago that I visited,

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Speaker 1: so so I have to think a little bit about

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Speaker 1: about some of the things I saw. But one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I noticed when I was in there

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Speaker 1: was the accoup sticks inside, and I think that if

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Speaker 1: there had been music playing, I would remember it because

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Speaker 1: of that. There's a bit in the story where where

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Speaker 1: Denniston is kind of thinking about the environment he's in

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Speaker 1: and kind of slightly uneasy about it, and he says

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Speaker 1: that from time to time he can hear sort of

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Speaker 1: footsteps and voices and stuff like that. And one of

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Speaker 1: the things I noticed was that when you're in that church,

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Speaker 1: you can't hear anything from outside at all, nothing because

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Speaker 1: they're very, very sick stone walls. But inside, um, there's

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Speaker 1: such great acoustics that, you know, a footfall sounds like

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Speaker 1: a gunshot. So whatever he was hearing in the story

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Speaker 1: was coming from inside the church. So if he thought

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Speaker 1: he heard kind of rustling and footsteps and stuff, you know,

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. It wasn't from outside. It was something inside

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Speaker 1: with him. He says, something like hushed voices and muffled

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Speaker 1: footfalls and all the strange sounds that plagued an old

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Speaker 1: building exactly, So that would all have been inside with him.

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Speaker 1: He does call the Oregon Dilopida the two there's a yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think he does. Yeah, it's the wooden Church is

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Speaker 1: like inside of the stone Church. Yes, yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on on on church history, though

334
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Speaker 1: I'm interested in it, but I think that it would

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Speaker 1: have been kind of the officials of the church who

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Speaker 1: were inside, and the choir as well, because there's choir

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Speaker 1: stalls and stuff like that. Um. And at the point

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Speaker 1: where other churches were having to take this sort of

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Speaker 1: stuff out because it wasn't considered inclusive, what they did

340
00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,600
Speaker 1: instead was to put in another altar outside that so that, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, so that it wasn't necessary to destroy anything

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Speaker 1: for people to take part in in the whole service. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So so, so that is why it's remained intact. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to think if there's any other features that particularly

345
00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,680
Speaker 1: stuck out. There's the there's a tomb of Hugh de Castillon,

346
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Speaker 1: which is probably the only really fine tomb inside the church,

347
00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 1: and that's kind of a gothic thing, kind of white marble,

348
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 1: with him sort of lying there in state with a

349
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Speaker 1: sort of canopy thing over his head and under his feet.

350
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Speaker 1: There's a dragon. I think it's eating a little dog

351
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Speaker 1: or something. Which is it? Mean? Um, and that, if anything,

352
00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 1: might have inspired canon all bricks tomb in the story,

353
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Speaker 1: because you know that that doesn't in fact exist. Well, uh,

354
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Speaker 1: what is that? Two? You can see the figure? Yes, yes,

355
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 1: it's one of these ones that has a kind of

356
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,959
Speaker 1: a figure line on top, so it almost looks like

357
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,159
Speaker 1: there's a kind of um, sort of a table or

358
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 1: a box or something other with carvings all around the side,

359
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Speaker 1: and then on the top there's a figure lining there

360
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Speaker 1: with I think with folded hands and kind of a

361
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 1: Gothic canopy over the top and these animals under his feet. Wow. There, No,

362
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Speaker 1: that's not the you know, I grew up in non

363
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Speaker 1: denominational American churches. We don't have those sorts of things

364
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: that really used process. Um. Yeah, that's and and and

365
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Speaker 1: one of the things you wrote about in your article

366
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Speaker 1: is that there's this there's this blending of like, um,

367
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Speaker 1: Christian and Catholic iconography and then uh, like pagan carvings

368
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,720
Speaker 1: and figures and things mixed in, right, Yeah, and that

369
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Speaker 1: that is a very strange thing. And you know, it's

370
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Speaker 1: still I find that difficult to get my head around. Um.

371
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Speaker 1: Apparently Bishop jen considered himself a humanist. Um. And and

372
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Speaker 1: that's genderman who's feature who Actually he's a real person

373
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Speaker 1: that features in the story. He doesn't feature in the story.

374
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Speaker 1: The person that features in the story is a fictional

375
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Speaker 1: member of the family called Ulberick. But they I'm sorry,

376
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Speaker 1: but they mentioned him as a descendant of Yes, yes,

377
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 1: but he doesn't. I mean that that's as far as

378
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: he features. But but yes, yeah, he was. He was

379
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: a real person. But there are various sort of characters

380
00:21:55,840 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: in there, including rather weirdly, Julius Caesar. I mean, nobody

381
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,200
Speaker 1: really knows why that is. Because humanists sometimes considered that

382
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 1: Pagans could be considered, in a way kind of Christian

383
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,800
Speaker 1: if they had the right sort of point of view

384
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: where you could interpret sort of what they said as being,

385
00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 1: you know, a search for Christian truth or whatever, then okay,

386
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,160
Speaker 1: you know, we're going to count these good people as Christians.

387
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,560
Speaker 1: But you know, Julius Caesar, that was stretching it a bit,

388
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 1: So nobody really knows why that was. But yeah, there's

389
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of these images inside the church.

390
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 1: I think there's actually the labors of Heracles as well,

391
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: So you know, it's hard to know how those fit in. Okay,

392
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:37,640
Speaker 1: what about the crocodile. I know you you're already bright

393
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,360
Speaker 1: and up. It's hard. It's hard to ms the crack

394
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,080
Speaker 1: and it just it just is a blip in the story,

395
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: like he doesn't explain the crocodile at all. Yeah, the

396
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,840
Speaker 1: crocodile is one of um, I believe nine crocodiles which

397
00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: are preserved in churches in France. Um. And you know,

398
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: according to the local legends saying Bertrand is supposed to

399
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: have seen off a crocodile which lived in a nearby

400
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: river and which was picking off all the young women

401
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,879
Speaker 1: of the town when they went down there to are

402
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 1: supposed to do the washing whenever else they were doing. Um.

403
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:14,920
Speaker 1: And he went down to confront the crocodile, armed only

404
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 1: with his crosier and kind of hit it on the

405
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 1: snout or whatever, after which it became as quiet as

406
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 1: a lamb. And I think they're supposed to have followed

407
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 1: him back to the church and died or something like

408
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 1: some such thing. Um. Anyway, this this is the local legend,

409
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,800
Speaker 1: and there is in fact a fairly modern painting in

410
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: the church that shows this as well. But in actual fact,

411
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 1: it's more probable that the crocodile was originally brought back

412
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,520
Speaker 1: from the Holy Land as a kind of souvenir, and

413
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: that's why there was a number of churches in France

414
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: that have them because of that. And it's a stuffed

415
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: crocodile that's hanging, it says, hanging over the fine I

416
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: think in the but you say it's not there, it's not. No,

417
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 1: it's actually kind of attached to the wall. Um, and

418
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: it wasn't particularly close to the font. But of course

419
00:23:57,760 --> 00:23:59,680
Speaker 1: I don't know me as because it's possible they could

420
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 1: have relocated the font since um since Samul James visited.

421
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 1: But having looked at the book by our friend Baron

422
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,239
Speaker 1: Louis Um, the crocodile has always been there since in

423
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,040
Speaker 1: that position, since before m R James visited, So I

424
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,160
Speaker 1: don't think that it's been moved since then. I think

425
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:37,320
Speaker 1: it's always been where it was. We're talking about stuff

426
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 1: cracked that I'm like picturing like kind of like that

427
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: quite as large as life like thing that you would

428
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: win like a you know, at the midway at a carnival,

429
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: Like it's kind of cute that's just what's in my head,

430
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 1: like a stuffed crocodile. What is it? Is it bigger?

431
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: Is it scarier? It is quite big, and I mean

432
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: it does look like a real crocodile. It's not cute looking,

433
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 1: and it's not that small really. Um. I mean I

434
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: remember last year, rather bizarrely, I was staying in an

435
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: airbnb in Nuremberg at all places, and they had they

436
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: had a small one in there, but I mean that

437
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: was sort of you know, this long, it was about

438
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: two or three ft long. But the one in command

439
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 1: is a really big crocodile um and yeah, and quite

440
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 1: scaly looking. So there is always the question of whether

441
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 1: there was a painting like the one which Mr James

442
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: describes in the story showing um st Bertran liberating a

443
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: man whom the devil had long sought to strangle, and

444
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: that that doesn't seem to actually exist. I spent a

445
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: long time in the church trying to decide whether any

446
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 1: of the paintings there could have inspired it. And there

447
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,239
Speaker 1: was a large one behind where the altar now is,

448
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: which was very sort of large, dark looking painting, but

449
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: that didn't have that particular subject. Did I think have

450
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: Saint Bertra. But but he isn't sort of rescuing somebody

451
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 1: from a demon or anything like that. So I think

452
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 1: that's invention. Um it's such an embargative phrase because it's like,

453
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: what do you picture for that the guy whom the

454
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: devil long sought to strangle? Yeah, something very Gothic. I

455
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 1: really imagine something, something quite nasty. But also I think

456
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: the fact that the painting is is very kind of

457
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: dark and obscure is good because that's the sort of

458
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: thing which if you saw it clearly, would probably just

459
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 1: be ludicrous, but if you see it hinted at, it's

460
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: quite unpleasant. But I mean, whilst I was looking to

461
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 1: see whether there was really was a painting like that,

462
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: I also looked at the there's a kind of a

463
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 1: big reliequery to St. Bertrand which is right behind the altar,

464
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: and that has a lot of paintings on it. But

465
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: I didn't think that was such a good candidate. I mean,

466
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 1: it does have some of his miracles on there, though

467
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: not that particular one, but there's dozens of them, so

468
00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 1: it wasn't one big pitch. So but I mean I

469
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: looked at it, so I suppose you your project is

470
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 1: kind of finding the line like where the fiction been starts.

471
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 1: What's so amazing about him, though, I suppose, is that

472
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: it's almost close to meta fiction in the sense that

473
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 1: the real and the fictional are so closely entwined in

474
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: some of the stories that you can't really pick them apart.

475
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going to veer off Cannon Aubrick scrapbook

476
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: for a second here and returned to the Treasure of

477
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: Abbot Thomas. But at the beginning of that story there's

478
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: this massive, great long quotation in Latin which is supposed

479
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 1: to come from particular particular book, the certain Norbertinum I

480
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: think it is or something other from Steinfeld Abbey's library,

481
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: and the library has long been lost. But very very

482
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 1: early in the twentieth century, when this story was first

483
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: translated into German and somebody in Germany read read the

484
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: story for the first time, they thought that he really

485
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: had read a book from Steinfeld Abbey with with this

486
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: in it. It was so convincing and so um. You

487
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: know that the language was so right and the title

488
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: was right. I mean St. Norbert, who the book was

489
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: named after, is the local saint. So it was so

490
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: convincing that they wrote to him and amongst other things,

491
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: asked where he'd seen this book, you know. And the

492
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: weird thing as well, is that's the story that has

493
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 1: all these other sort of errors in the sense that

494
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: steinfeld Abbey isn't the way that he imagined it. So

495
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 1: there's all these sort of things kind of mixed in together,

496
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 1: and sometimes it's really really difficult to tease apart which things,

497
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: which things are true, which things are imagined. Yeah, I

498
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 1: think that that that's the wonderful thing about them really is,

499
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: is they are so very convincing, even the bits which

500
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: which are touchingly true. I can imagine this scenario where

501
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: MRJ is like the end of the day, he's done

502
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: his whatever, his college work, and he's sitting there at

503
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: his desk and he's smoking his half a pipe and whatever,

504
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: and his musing about, you know, what fiction projects, you know,

505
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 1: what he wants to dream up, And so many of

506
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: them seemed like the starting places, like what about my

507
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: there's this really cool like document or a picture or

508
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 1: a book or like piece of a famway that like

509
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: I wish I could see, And I don't think I'll

510
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: ever get too, because I don't think it exists anymore,

511
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: but like what if it did? Yeah, I agree, and

512
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I think the other thing I like about

513
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: them is that there's often a very good internal logic

514
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: and into the stories. And that's partly because he does

515
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: use things like that. He uses things that, though um,

516
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: they may be prosaic, they're things like paintings and documents

517
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 1: and archives and stuff. You know, they're real bits of evidence.

518
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,600
Speaker 1: Whereas if you have a story which is much more

519
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: about people's feelings, you know, like I went into a

520
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: creepy place and you know I felt uneasy, but I

521
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: couldn't really say why. Um, that can also be unsettling,

522
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: but it's unsettling a different sort of way. And I personally,

523
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: as a reader, I find his use of internal logic

524
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 1: is very satisfying. I believe his stories. They can sometimes

525
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: be quiet, but but I do believe, and they convinced

526
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 1: me quite as good, quite as good, quite as spooky.

527
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: It is quite gives people anxiety in films and in audio,

528
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 1: you don't you don't say anything for long enough, people

529
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: started to freak out. I think I think it's interesting.

530
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: Out of all his stories, the one that gives me

531
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: the whim whams most is one which I don't know

532
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: if you've read this one is called a neighbor's Landmark many.

533
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 1: I was really proud of myself that I knew like

534
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 1: three or four that you listed off the top and

535
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,440
Speaker 1: now you're it's fine. But the funny thing about that

536
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: particular story is that it's full of people sort of

537
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,719
Speaker 1: saying and then this person told me this, and then

538
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: they'll say, well again, and that person went off and

539
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: found this out from this other person, And it's like

540
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: a sort of some kind of Russian doll. You know,

541
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: you're always going through the different layers, and I think

542
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: that the whole story is actually being related to somebody

543
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: by somebody else, And then they're relating that that they

544
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 1: had stayed with somebody and their host had told them

545
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 1: something and then gone off to check with somebody else,

546
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: and that person who they'd gone to check with the

547
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: related something that had happened to his mother. So you know,

548
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: it's getting further and further and further away from actually

549
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: being confronted by the ghost. And yet somehow, when the

550
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: ghost appears, it's right in front of you. I don't

551
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: know how where about James does that, but it's magical.

552
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: You think how can that be all this here saying

553
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: it's still that frightening. I've often wondered about that that

554
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: that does seem to be you know that that seems

555
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 1: like an extreme example of it. But this, this this

556
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: Victorian ghost kind of conceder, you know, structural idea of

557
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: like a lot of times there's a first person narrator

558
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: that's telling you a story that was told to them,

559
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: and within that story, there's like a story that's a

560
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: piece of the story that's told to the person that's

561
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 1: telling the story that told to the narrator, and that

562
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,320
Speaker 1: can go and what you're saying sounds amazing that he

563
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: just like recognize that just like to get I've often

564
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: wondered why that has been implemented so much, especially in

565
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 1: like British Victorian ghost stories, and like why it's so

566
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 1: effective or if it is so effective, I wonder whether

567
00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: it doesn't share something a bit with the urban legend,

568
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: because you know, the urban legends that we still tell

569
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: now are always like that, they always happened to somebody

570
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: else who's who's closely associated with us, but not quite

571
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 1: close enough that you can actually finger the person that

572
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: it was. So it's always you know, I had a

573
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: friend who said her boyfriend's cousin had this happened? You know,

574
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: it's never actually somebody said, well it was me, you

575
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: know I was there this happened, you know, as there

576
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: maybe sort of an element of that. I mean, another

577
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: one that I can think of is personal Langdon story

578
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: Firmly Abbey, which if you haven't read that, you can

579
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: you can read it online. But that is really incredibly frightening.

580
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 1: And that is that is related by somebody who's saying

581
00:32:57,320 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: I think he asks if he can share somebody's cabin

582
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: when they're the sea voyage, and the other blokespit like,

583
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 1: well you know, I haven't got your own, um, and

584
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 1: he says, well, you know, I can't sleep on my

585
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 1: own anymore, and this is why. And then he explains

586
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: and um, yeah, so I think it can work really well,

587
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: it's it's it's it generates all this that sort of

588
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: layered storytelling generates all these nice moments in Canada albrick

589
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 1: because um, all of the characters really are fiercely pragmatic, like, um,

590
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, like it'll you drop you drop out of

591
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 1: Denniston story for a second. You're talking to m M.

592
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: R James is kind of talking. It's like I showed

593
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: this picture like to a friend of mine once and

594
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 1: like they're like super sane, Like they're super unimaginative. But

595
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: like he couldn't even he wouldn't let be alone. He wouldn't,

596
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: you know. So um And and also the way that

597
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: you can sort of detach from the beat by beat

598
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: the timeline of the plot for a second and be

599
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 1: like we're gonna have to describe this part of the photo.

600
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: And man, it's also he's got like the longest descriptions

601
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: of paintings, uh, you know, just the longest descriptions of

602
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 1: single documents, the mesitants and other great example of it

603
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: that I feel like few authors could really pull off.

604
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 1: But like he obviously like has the cred the ability

605
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 1: to do it and also make it like really compelling

606
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: as it's happening, yeah in Canada. But those are the

607
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: parts that I reread over and over. It's like because

608
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: there's so much in them, and the first time you

609
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,439
Speaker 1: read you don't even realize like how much how many

610
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 1: clues and mysteries there are in every little piece of description.

611
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: I think this is the thing, And often it's the

612
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: little tiny bits that kind of stick with you. I mean,

613
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 1: I think with For example, another of his stories, Casting

614
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: the Rooms, there's a bit where the evil Mr Carswell

615
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: is showing a magic lantern show to some children with

616
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: the aim of really ultimately and frightening them off trespassing

617
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: on his country estate. And he shows them all these

618
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 1: horrible pictures and and they're getting nasty as they go along.

619
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: And then there's one which the children clearly recognize as

620
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: a small boy walking through Mr Carswell's estate, and he's

621
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: pursued and it says and somehow made away with by

622
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: a horrible hopping creature in white. And this thing is

623
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: never more clearly seen than that. But I think, and

624
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 1: why is it so unpleasant? And I can't even quite

625
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 1: put my finger on it. The fact that it's hopping,

626
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: I mean, that ought to be ludicrous, but it isn't.

627
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: There's something so unnatural about that, you know, because if

628
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: if it were really kind of I don't know, a

629
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,240
Speaker 1: monster or something, wouldn't it be running on all fours

630
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: or something like that. But it's not. There's this horrible

631
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: sort of lopsided, sort of flopping kind of image of

632
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: it which is really unpleasant. I mean, you have this

633
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: like you have a stack of books behind you, and

634
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: there's like one the one decoration. You don't have a

635
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: stuff cracking up. You have as like a ceramic bunny,

636
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: I think, And so I was thinking, big horrible scary

637
00:35:54,560 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 1: easter bunny. Yeah, that we're very hopping. It's the uncanny, right,

638
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: you know. It's it's like just you just can't quite

639
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: put your finger on it. It's also it's very very understated.

640
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,240
Speaker 1: I mean, when the ghost finally appears in a neighbor's landmark,

641
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 1: it said that is describing how how this this old

642
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: guy's mother always used to have to come back through

643
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: the woods in the evening with the milk that she

644
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,879
Speaker 1: got from a nearby farm, and that she would never

645
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: send any of the children in case they got a fright,

646
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 1: because she knew perfectly well what it was in the woods.

647
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 1: And and the narrator said, well, you know, did she

648
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: never see anything? And and the other one says, well,

649
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: she said, only but the once when she came back

650
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: through the wood on the darkest evening it had ever been,

651
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: and she and when she heard the rustling in the bushes,

652
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: she felt compelled to look behind her, and she saw

653
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: something coming on very all in tatters, coming on very

654
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: I think was it with the two arms held out

655
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: in front of it, coming on very fast? And with

656
00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:00,760
Speaker 1: that she ran for the style and told her Flynn

657
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: her gown to Flint isn't getting over it. We're slightly

658
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: misquoted that, I think, But um, but the idea of

659
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: just this thing coming on very fast. It's not running,

660
00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: it's almost kind of gliding, and with the two arms

661
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: held out in front of it, I think it's reaching

662
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: for her, But it doesn't say that. If it said,

663
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: you know, it was it was running at her at

664
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:22,240
Speaker 1: high speed with its arms out, that wouldn't be scary.

665
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: But the idea that it's coming on very fast, that

666
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: really gives me the creeps. The language is expert, Yeah,

667
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: it's really good. I love it when there's really long

668
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 1: Latin passages. That sounded super I should cut that cup.

669
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 1: That's not a break super stup. But it just I

670
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,879
Speaker 1: don't know Latin, but I just especially hearing it Red

671
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: hearing his audiobooks and things. I just love it when

672
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:48,920
Speaker 1: there's all this long Latin and then it's like, this

673
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: is what the Latin said, and then you just be

674
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 1: lying to me every time. But I just I completely

675
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,280
Speaker 1: drink the kool and I just buy it. I'm hearing

676
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,800
Speaker 1: some ancient things that I'm not supposed to know about.

677
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,439
Speaker 1: I've got this like esoteric information. It's it's super cool.

678
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 1: It's like you're in on this joke or you're like

679
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: in on this like elite club of like oh, those

680
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,400
Speaker 1: are the things that people talk about in like the

681
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: back rooms. It's like bridge. You know. It's funny though,

682
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: because I mean, I'm one of the few probably for dinosaurs,

683
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: that did actually do Greek and Latin at University that

684
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: Oxford many years ago. Um, so yeah, I can vouch

685
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: for the fact that that that the Latin is what

686
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: he says it is. I mean, I I like it

687
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 1: when he uses these documents because it adds authenticity to

688
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: the story for me. And um, I mean, if I

689
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: can draw a comparison, another person that does this is

690
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: is Henry Rider Haggard. His his novel She, which was

691
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: made into a Hollywood film very successfully. Um, that begins

692
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: with a whole load of documents like this, which is

693
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: supposedly sort of documenting events over time. And I think

694
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: there's one of them in Greek and one of them

695
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: in Latin and something else in I don't know, world,

696
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 1: Old English or Anglo Saxon or something. And you know,

697
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: I think this is a huge thing for anybody to

698
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: wade through, and modern audiences probably wouldn't stand for it,

699
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: but I personally like it because I think that it

700
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: says to me that I'm on this journey too. If

701
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: I can only decide for these things, and I'll understand

702
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: the secret, and I love that. I think it's great

703
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 1: to me. I mean haunting, hauntings and extended into possessions

704
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:34,919
Speaker 1: and other kinds of sort of supernatural phenomenon. I think

705
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: I think of them as very specific to place, specific

706
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: to objects like this was the house that you know,

707
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: I lived in five years ago and I died here,

708
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: and this place is imbued with with with you know,

709
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: a sense of me whatever, a trace of of of me,

710
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: even though I'm gone. I mean literally, that's true, and

711
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 1: then you take it into whatever you're in the direction

712
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: you want. But that's like specific to this place, or

713
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: it's specific to that church, or it's specific to that

714
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 1: you know, that photograph or that painting or that um

715
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: And that's really where it gets me. And that's what,

716
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: you know why I think the level of specificity and

717
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: the sort of dexteriority with which he describes objects in places,

718
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,600
Speaker 1: and the texture and the powerability of them can be

719
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: you know, it can feed so much into that horror.

720
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: So I totally agree. And I mean, having having having

721
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 1: visited some of his story locations, I think that's very true.

722
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: I mean they're all very very evocative places. I mean,

723
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: even v Borg. And when I went to v bl

724
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 1: to to see the supposed um site of the story

725
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 1: number thirteen, I think it was a big shop there now,

726
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 1: and they were very surprised when I went in. There

727
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 1: was some very nice young MANU. I don't really speak

728
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 1: any Danish at all, so I had to sort of

729
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: start off by saying, I'm terribly sorry, I don't speak Danish.

730
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: Said that no, no, no, I said it in English,

731
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: really really pitiful, and I had to just apologize and

732
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: said like, I'm really sorry, but I can I ask

733
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: you about this. And they were super friendly and super nice.

734
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 1: But I mean, it was a fashion shop now, But

735
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,320
Speaker 1: in spite of that, the town itself was well chosen.

736
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: You could tell that that, you know, notwithstanding how it

737
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 1: is now, you could still feel the ancientness of it

738
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: and the history um, you know it was a super place.

739
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: Did come on just give you the creeps at all?

740
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: It's that really super creepy in this story. I wouldn't

741
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: say the town itself. It's I think like sleepy is

742
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,399
Speaker 1: the word. I think. I don't know that he uses

743
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 1: the word sleep but I think I got that from

744
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 1: your article. But I feel like that's the feeling I

745
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 1: get from the James story. I didn't find it super creepy.

746
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 1: It was very atmospheric. Because we walked around it after

747
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 1: dark and because it was so quiet there was there

748
00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: was there was bats flitting through the streets and this

749
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: sort of thing. You could you could see them overhead

750
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: and you could because the night air was very clear,

751
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 1: you could hear cow belts from a long distance. And yeah,

752
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,800
Speaker 1: you know, it's very very atmospheric. And I remember looking

753
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: out of the hotel window, I think we stayed at Lopidom,

754
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,359
Speaker 1: which is one of the two hotels there, and looking

755
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: out of the back window and you could see kind

756
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 1: of the moon above the cathedral and it was very

757
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: very atmospheric. But I can't say that I felt afraid

758
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 1: in any way. I mean, I didn't go into the

759
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: church and think, well, this strikes me is essentially a

760
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 1: nasty place. I mean, I've been into churches which have

761
00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: given me the creeps big time. When we were in

762
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: France some years not France, Spain some years ago, we

763
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: went into one I think it was a cathedral at Gerona,

764
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: and that um, you know, I couldn't get out of

765
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: there fast enough really that that was really creepy. I

766
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,799
Speaker 1: mean they had things like a giant glass coffin with

767
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,879
Speaker 1: a wax effigy of a dead person inside, and they

768
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,120
Speaker 1: had this enormous I think it was an altar piece

769
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:00,239
Speaker 1: or something or other that went right up into sort

770
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 1: of the darkness of the ceiling with all these sort

771
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: of tumbled figures carved out of dark wood, and everything

772
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:09,959
Speaker 1: was just really creepy and gothic. And I didn't feel

773
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 1: comfortable in there. But I didn't feel like that in

774
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 1: in St. Bert under Commanity. It's actually, you know, the

775
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 1: church there is quite nice. I feel like there's definitely

776
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: like a listener base that will be like, Yo, where's

777
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: that church in Spain? I really want to go. Who

778
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: is sat bertrand what is he? What is his steal um? Yeah?

779
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: I mean I think he's he was a local guy.

780
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 1: I think his main sort of local miracle was the

781
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 1: crocodile one. He was bertrandle Jordan, who became St. Bertrand.

782
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: And I think that the church dates to his lifetime,

783
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: the first part of the church, so it's the twelfth century. Um.

784
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: But I don't know what his other miracles were, to

785
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: be honest, I probably ought to know. In the church,

786
00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: there's a whole series of kind of pictures on the

787
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,720
Speaker 1: altar which show on his relique cory rather behind the altar,

788
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: which which showed the various kind of events of his

789
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 1: life and stuff like that. Um so so yes, in

790
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: that sense, he's very very present. Like locally he's kind

791
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: of the guy in command, but like at this sort

792
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: of Catholic church at large, he's not really like a

793
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: figure that people talk about. Um No, I guess not.

794
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess there's there's a lot kind of

795
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: bigger saints, but I mean locally he's very very big.

796
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: I mean, there's still quite a lot of people called

797
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 1: either Bertrand or if they're female, Bertond there even now, right,

798
00:44:34,960 --> 00:44:38,919
Speaker 1: you met a Bertrand somewhere I think while you were there, right, yeah, now,

799
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: this this is this is altogether a bit strange, and

800
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 1: this is one of these things which is entirely based

801
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,439
Speaker 1: on hearsay, but it is the best information that I had.

802
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:51,719
Speaker 1: So whilst I was whilst I was touring the cathedral,

803
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: I spoke to the then cathedral guides, whose name were

804
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: Jacques Marrere and Gerard Cluz and they had both retired

805
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: by two thousand and nine. I have a feeling that

806
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: one or both of them may have died by now,

807
00:45:07,040 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 1: and I tried to check that up before before this podcast,

808
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 1: but I wasn't able to find any information about about

809
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 1: that at all. Um Anyway, I chatted with them entirely

810
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: in French because neither of them spoke English or any

811
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: rate wasn't going to admit to being after speak English,

812
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 1: so there's sometimes a difference. Anyway, I chatted with them

813
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: and I told them why I was there, and somewhat

814
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: to my surprise, they had actually heard of m R

815
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 1: James and they didn't know about the story because you know,

816
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: sometimes you go to locations and people don't know about

817
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 1: him because he's a very English writer, so you know,

818
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: they may not have anywhere they had heard of him.

819
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: And I said to them that amongst other things. I

820
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 1: was trying to find out where this this house was

821
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: that the sacristan is supposed to be living in in

822
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: the story. And they identified it as the former episcopal

823
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 1: palace that was occupied by a family called Rixen's, which

824
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: is a very very local name there. And they said

825
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: that a painter called Bertrand Rixons so again that that

826
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: name Bertrand had painted, had painted this picture that's inside

827
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: the church that shows St. Bertrand and the crocodile um,

828
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: and that he had met him L. James when he

829
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 1: was there and had almost certainly taken him back to

830
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: his to give him I don't know whatever the equivalent

831
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: of a cup of teas you know, glass of kognac

832
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: or something. Um. And so that was probably the place

833
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: in the story. Um. But this this is really not

834
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 1: verifiable at all. I mean I've tried. I mean since

835
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: then things have moved on a bit. I mean, this

836
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: was what sort of thirteen years ago or whatever, So no,

837
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: seventeen years ago actually two thousand and four um. And

838
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: so I've tried googling it and tried to find out

839
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: more about it, but I just haven't been able to.

840
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:54,080
Speaker 1: There was another painter of the surname Rixon's, who was

841
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: far more celebrated, who was also involved in the church

842
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: in the area. But I don't think that was him. Um.

843
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: He doesn't have the same first name. I think his

844
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 1: name was Jean Um and his work, which I've also seen,

845
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: was far more sophisticated. So I'm pretty sure he didn't

846
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: do the thing in the church. UM. But this other

847
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 1: guy there's there seems to be no trace of him,

848
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:16,760
Speaker 1: and the only work that he did was local commissions.

849
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: So I only had the guide's words for it that

850
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,320
Speaker 1: this is even true. Um. But on the other hand,

851
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 1: there is no better information. I mean that was seventeen

852
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 1: years ago. Um. The guys have both retired now. UM.

853
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: I read a report in UM in one of the

854
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,280
Speaker 1: French newspapers about this when when the second one retired,

855
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: and um it said rather snarkily that that the place

856
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: was now being manned by una kit to feminize a

857
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: team that's now been completely feminized because there was there's

858
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 1: three women now running the tourist, the tour guide's office

859
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 1: or whatever. So yes, shock horror, women doing the drab

860
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:03,600
Speaker 1: um anyway, so have hunted or a pressed manner, not

861
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 1: at all. I've seen pictures of them. There's three of them, um,

862
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: and the two younger ones looked quite cheerful, and there

863
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 1: was one sort of slightly more disgruntled looking older lady.

864
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:14,240
Speaker 1: But no, none of them looked looked at all haunted.

865
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:19,280
Speaker 1: But but you know they're a lot younger. So um yeah,

866
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: so so, so that link with these earlier guides, I

867
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: guess is gone. I mean, they knew so much that

868
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: wasn't in any of guide books, and I don't know.

869
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,839
Speaker 1: I mean that struck me as very much kind of

870
00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,879
Speaker 1: what some of the trips I've done have almost been

871
00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 1: about is getting the best truth that you can. I mean,

872
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 1: if it is never possible to get any more information

873
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:45,959
Speaker 1: and that and then that is my my best sort

874
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 1: of guess on on where the Sacristan's house was, But

875
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: it is based on here say, there's no way to

876
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,919
Speaker 1: to verify it at all. I did, in fact, knowing

877
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: that I was going to be on this podcast, I

878
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 1: did try emailing the cathedral and asking them if the

879
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 1: painting is still there and whether they could confirm the

880
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: name of the person that painted it, because I thought

881
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 1: maybe there's a signature on it, you know, that would

882
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: help a little bit but I haven't had a reply,

883
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,640
Speaker 1: so so if I can put it all together, I'm

884
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: like totally willing to just buy it. I know you

885
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: have to do, you have to have other evidence, and

886
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: God bless you for it. Um m R. James himself

887
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 1: goes to Commands in like eight or eight and he's

888
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: in there and he's looking around and he's maybe dreaming

889
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 1: about this story, maybe he don't thought of it yet,

890
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: and he sees this painting that's really new then, right,

891
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 1: this of this of Saint Bridgeman and the crocodile. Maybe

892
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: he doesn't even see the painting, maybe just gets chatting

893
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: to the painter. I mean, I'm not sure when the

894
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: painting dates too. It's a he's a contemporary of James, right,

895
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 1: and he's a contemporary, so he's there. I mean, maybe

896
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 1: he's hanging around the square in front of the hotel

897
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: to command looking for some tourist to pestor who knows.

898
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: They're both in there and they're just soaking an inspiration

899
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 1: because they both did work, you know, from this place. Anyways,

900
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 1: they get hanging out, he says, come back, and James like,

901
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: you got some teas, like I've got knyak. They go

902
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: back to this, you know, a house that's maybe around

903
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,359
Speaker 1: the corner. You you you went to the house where

904
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 1: you think, Yes, yeah, I did and photograph the outside

905
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: of it, but I couldn't go in. I asked about it.

906
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: And after Bertrand Rickson's died, allegedly the house passed past

907
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:30,400
Speaker 1: to a nephew of his and who since died because

908
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: this was a long time ago, but his wife was

909
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:34,360
Speaker 1: still living in the house and they said, no, you

910
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:38,320
Speaker 1: can't bother her because she's very, very old. So that

911
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:43,719
Speaker 1: was a yeah, she's just really old. And then what

912
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 1: were your your criteria or I mean the criteria friend James,

913
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: of like, what this Sacriston's house needs to look like? Well,

914
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 1: it needs to be a stone built house, though you

915
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 1: know most of the ones in the older part of St.

916
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:02,240
Speaker 1: Bertrand Dab. But it also needed to be within walking

917
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 1: distance of the other places in the story. I mean, clearly,

918
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 1: it couldn't be right outside the town walls or anything,

919
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,359
Speaker 1: because if it was, it would be too far. Right.

920
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 1: He literally walks out the door when the daughter has

921
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 1: given him the cross and everything, and please let us

922
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: walk you home to the hotel, and he's like, I

923
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:22,960
Speaker 1: can see it's yeah, he waves them from the steps. Yeah,

924
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,160
Speaker 1: and they just stand outside on their doorstep just watching him.

925
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: So clearly it's it's close by. But the other thing

926
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:30,480
Speaker 1: is that I think there was supposed to be a

927
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 1: coat of arms over the door, so that kind of

928
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: narrowed it down a bit. And this episcopal palace did

929
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: have one, but there was one or two other buildings

930
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 1: in the town that did as well, so I had

931
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 1: to kind of eliminate them or think why it would

932
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 1: be this particular one. So yeah, but that's as far

933
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: as it goes. Okay, no, but I'm going to suppose

934
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 1: it like I'm just gonna suppose all the way through it.

935
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: So m R James meets Bertrand however in the town

936
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,839
Speaker 1: or in the church, they have a hanging out there

937
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,720
Speaker 1: kicking it, and they go back to bertrand Rixon's house.

938
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,879
Speaker 1: The stone bill larger and that's it's a little larger

939
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 1: than the other buildings. Rights that is that one of

940
00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,479
Speaker 1: the qualifications. Yeah, it's fairly large. And he's in there

941
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:16,600
Speaker 1: having this conversation with this guy, and that's where that's

942
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: where the the dream of this of this of this sacristana,

943
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,200
Speaker 1: his his daughter's house is going on? This is this

944
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 1: is the location that he uses and imagines those characters into.

945
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,439
Speaker 1: You don't have to say that's true. You're not willing

946
00:52:30,560 --> 00:52:32,799
Speaker 1: to go all the way out, And then it sure

947
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: seems like pretty compelling. It's It's difficult, isn't it, Because

948
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:39,360
Speaker 1: I think, on the one hand, when I was writing

949
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: the article, I have to stick to stuff that has

950
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,479
Speaker 1: evidence in it. But then there's how I feel about

951
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: it myself, and in my own eyes, I think this

952
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,320
Speaker 1: is the candidate. You know, nowhere else was convincing me

953
00:52:50,440 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 1: as being the sacristan's house. And I do think that

954
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: it must have been based on a real place. I mean,

955
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,399
Speaker 1: with so many sort of likely places around the town,

956
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: what would be that the or the need of Mr

957
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: James to invent a place. I feel that it was

958
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: a real one most of the time. If he visited somewhere,

959
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,360
Speaker 1: I think that he did, you know, base it on

960
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 1: at least base it on something real. So yeah, it

961
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: does seem to be his track record based on everything

962
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: we've talked about. The hotel that he stays and is

963
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: that an accident building? Um the Chapeau Rouge in story

964
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 1: um so far as I could discover is a fiction.

965
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 1: But that's only in the sense that he called it that.

966
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: I mean, if he'd stayed, for example, at the Oppidum

967
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,720
Speaker 1: where we stayed and just called it the Chapeau Rouge.

968
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: I mean, if I were writing something, that's probably what

969
00:53:39,840 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 1: I would do, because you never know whether somebody's going

970
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: to get annoyed if you write. You know, if your

971
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: self written this horrific story and it's all written around

972
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: your hotel. He doesn't really describe the hotel except for

973
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 1: the the what does he call an innkeeper, Bruce? Yeah, Yeah,

974
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: because it's it's obviously a female proprietor, because we never

975
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: actually see see the male and there's various points at

976
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: which I've sort of wondered the thing that appears to Denniston,

977
00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: there's a question mark could that be a female creature?

978
00:54:10,080 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 1: Because when he hears something laughing, um, he says that

979
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: he wishes that the landlad you would have a more

980
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: cheerful laugh, which sort of suggests that it's quite a

981
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:23,200
Speaker 1: feminine sounding laugh, even if it's kind of grim. So, yeah,

982
00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: there's a lot of question marks that I never thought

983
00:54:25,560 --> 00:54:28,839
Speaker 1: about that connection, because when he so later in this story,

984
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 1: when he's at home and he's like looking over the

985
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: scrap book, and he's knocking his pipe, refilling his pipe

986
00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: and just hanging out, and he's like, God, I wish

987
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: that landlady would laugh in a more cheery way. And

988
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: then earlier, when he's in the church, he he has

989
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: the impression that he hears laughing high up in the

990
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: rafters or wherever somewhere. I feel like I always interpreted

991
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 1: that as female laughter, but I can't remember if he

992
00:54:57,160 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: actually said at that point in the story, this sacristan

993
00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: says something like he he is laughing in the church

994
00:55:04,080 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 1: or whatever, But I still felt that it was it

995
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: was a little bit doubtful what the gender of the

996
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: creature is. I mean, I wrote another article about about

997
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 1: this particular story it went in which I went into

998
00:55:15,160 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 1: this in great, great length trying to identify who or

999
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 1: what the demon is. But I mean, there's another point

1000
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 1: in the story at which, um, I think Denniston says

1001
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: that the old man seems very nervous, to the extent

1002
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: that he thinks that it seems something worse than than

1003
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 1: a termagant wife, and that again as this sort of

1004
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 1: kind of feminine sort of attributes being applied to to

1005
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 1: whatever it is that he's frightened off. And that sort

1006
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,080
Speaker 1: of said to me, is this, you know, is this

1007
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,399
Speaker 1: a female creature? We don't really know. I mean later

1008
00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,399
Speaker 1: on when when the sacristan talks about the creature, he says,

1009
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 1: you know, he was laughing in the church, and he says,

1010
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,800
Speaker 1: I think was it deur foige las vous millfige lais santi.

1011
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: So I've seen him twice, but I've felt him a

1012
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: thousand times. But all the French words for demon are

1013
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,040
Speaker 1: all masculine, so it may well be that he only

1014
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 1: describes it as masculine there because of that, so question mark.

1015
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: M R. James's ghost stories generally, which which I absolutely love,

1016
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: are often quite soaked in a very masculine environment. And

1017
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:36,680
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just not going to, I don't know,

1018
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,640
Speaker 1: sort of argue with that at t I'm going to

1019
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:41,800
Speaker 1: enjoy them for what they are. Yeah, you know, I'm

1020
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: certainly not as well read on M. R. James as you,

1021
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:45,840
Speaker 1: but I have read and listened to a lot of

1022
00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: his stories. I can't think of a tremendous amount of

1023
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,840
Speaker 1: female characters. No, I mean there's some. I mean, I

1024
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: think in the Residents in in Whitminster, there's as I think,

1025
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: there's Mary Um and obviously there's sort of people in

1026
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 1: kind of walk on parts, I suppose, But but yeah,

1027
00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: a lot of them are told from the point of

1028
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: view of men. But like, for instance, I like Algernon

1029
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 1: Blackwood a lot. He has some short and he's very

1030
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: different style of horror. But I find that he really

1031
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: doesn't write female character as well. When he does, they're

1032
00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 1: often really kind of despicable or dumb, or or or

1033
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: even just sort of nonconsequent, you know, inconsequential, And I

1034
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 1: don't get that impression from Memory James. But I suppose

1035
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:36,800
Speaker 1: they are kind of like a lot of like male studios,

1036
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 1: they're kind of like him. Yeah, I think that's true.

1037
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 1: I mean I think, um, I don't think any of

1038
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:45,680
Speaker 1: the characters that he has, generally speaking, are offensively described.

1039
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: I mean, inasmuch as he was writing in the period

1040
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 1: that he was writing in, So you know, I suppose

1041
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:52,920
Speaker 1: if you were going to get into arguing about the

1042
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: fact that you know that the women have the mole

1043
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 1: gender stereotypical roles or something, but I mean, you know,

1044
00:57:57,360 --> 00:57:59,600
Speaker 1: considering when it is, I don't think that he writes

1045
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: he writes offensively about any of them. But I think

1046
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: there's a certain there is a certain kind of distance

1047
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,520
Speaker 1: or sort of handling with kid gloves that comes from

1048
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:12,240
Speaker 1: somebody that maybe wasn't very confident around them. West drapped

1049
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 1: a bomb and stuff. It wasn't wasn't very comfortable around No,

1050
00:58:17,520 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 1: no confident, not not comfortable. I think maybe ne very

1051
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:25,840
Speaker 1: confident around around women. Why do you think that? Well,

1052
00:58:25,880 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 1: I mean there's huge, huge chooge debates about his orientation, which, yeah,

1053
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:33,959
Speaker 1: which I wouldn't really sort of enter in on because

1054
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert enough on kind of the mynu

1055
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: show of his life. It's just my impression really from

1056
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: the way that he writes about the women in the

1057
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 1: stories that you know they're not they're not centered in it.

1058
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: It feels like very much a man's world. It's so interesting,

1059
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: you're just gonna just like say that, just move on.

1060
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: I was thinking, because I understand I take your point that, yeah,

1061
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,000
Speaker 1: that that you don't want to wait all the winter

1062
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 1: as well, you know, maybe being an American and just

1063
00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: not being in this scene. I like have only the

1064
00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,160
Speaker 1: faintest idea about how much conversation there is going on

1065
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:08,200
Speaker 1: about m R. James, Like, I just sort of realized

1066
00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: that the well that he's been adapted about a million

1067
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 1: times up for like the BBC TV radio all kinds

1068
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: of things that a ghost story for Christmas, the like

1069
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 1: annual BBC special those are like almost always M. R.

1070
00:59:23,480 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 1: James stories. It seems like, no, no, that's true. I

1071
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:33,919
Speaker 1: mean he's he's incredibly popular here and incredibly well known here. Yeah.

1072
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:36,720
Speaker 1: Have you ever heard a recording of him speaking? I

1073
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: tried to find one, and I haven't had any luck. Um,

1074
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 1: I don't think I have no, No, I'm not sure

1075
00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: that there is one, and probably now you know, what

1076
00:59:47,360 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 1: will happen is fifteen million people writing and tell us

1077
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: that there is in fact one somewhere. But I've never

1078
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:58,200
Speaker 1: heard one. I hope fifteen million people, because fifteen million

1079
00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: right in, I wonder how many are listening. Um, yeah,

1080
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,960
Speaker 1: please if you do. You know, I feel like he

1081
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: was old enough he lived. I don't know what when

1082
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 1: he died, but it was in the nineteen thirties. It

1083
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: was the thirties of lead. Yeah, so even if he

1084
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: was on something like radio, there's a probably big chance

1085
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: that it wasn't saved or record it anyway. But it

1086
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: never has No one ever walked up to him with

1087
01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: a wax cylinder recordings. I guess not. I guess not. Yeah,

1088
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: they should have. They really should have. Who Yeah, who knows?

1089
01:00:31,000 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 1: Maybe in a family archive or something. That's something I

1090
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: would love to hear. Um this question has I have

1091
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:39,280
Speaker 1: no way to sort of segue into this, I'm just

1092
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: gonna ask it he makes that he takes this moment

1093
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: in this story to be like the vergier or Sacristan.

1094
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: I'd prefer the later appellation, inaccurate as it. Maybe do

1095
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 1: you have a sense of what the those words are?

1096
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: Both were foreign to May before this story. Um M,

1097
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 1: now you've put me on the spot. Is that I

1098
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:04,040
Speaker 1: can't tell you what the exact the exact subtle distinction

1099
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: between the mets, but I mean to me, um, a

1100
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 1: verge just sounds a bit more sort of prosaic, whereas

1101
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 1: the sacristan sounds a bit more it sounds a bit

1102
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 1: more archaic and a little bit more mysterious. But I mean,

1103
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:21,480
Speaker 1: I'm sure that they probably are slightly different definitions for them.

1104
01:01:21,520 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 1: If you look them up in in a church dictionary

1105
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 1: or something, it's probably Yeah, it's probably super complicated to

1106
01:01:27,240 --> 01:01:29,960
Speaker 1: look at it, sound like a Merriam Webster, like the

1107
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: virguer does it to the left and the sacriston doesn't

1108
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:35,680
Speaker 1: the right. If I type in verge or versus sagriston,

1109
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: do I get an article about it? We'll do a

1110
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: whole side pope. Now that's sure. There we go. We'll

1111
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 1: see if this makes sense as now is the difference

1112
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 1: between sacristan and verger is that sagriston is a sexton. Well,

1113
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:54,400
Speaker 1: verger is one who carries the verge or emblem of office, right, okay,

1114
01:01:55,400 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: But the sexton I thought was usually somebody who's a

1115
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 1: grave digger. Yeah, okay. The sexton is the officer of

1116
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: a church congregational synagogue, charge with the maintenance of its

1117
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 1: buildings and all the surrounding graveyard. Okay, so I think

1118
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 1: sometimes they might be involved in digging grapes as well.

1119
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:15,720
Speaker 1: If it's a smaller church that is kind of more mysterious.

1120
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:18,200
Speaker 1: I think I think you hit the nail on the head.

1121
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 1: We need to talk about the scrap book a little bit.

1122
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 1: We haven't even talked about the scrap book. And it's

1123
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: the name of the story. Um hey, it's like it's

1124
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 1: just a pitch for a story like it's not the

1125
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:36,440
Speaker 1: sexiest pitch, like, oh, it's wanted scrap book, but the

1126
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:38,560
Speaker 1: scrap book is incredible, and it really it's that thing

1127
01:02:38,640 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 1: that I kind of was describing earlier that I I

1128
01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:43,919
Speaker 1: personally feel like it's this starting place for m R James,

1129
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 1: so many m R James story where it's like all

1130
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 1: these incredible rare thought to be lost, you know, like

1131
01:02:52,920 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 1: your wishless, your dream, the thing you lie in that

1132
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: he would lie in bed maybe and dream about these

1133
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: documents and of incredible origin, all bound together, he says.

1134
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,280
Speaker 1: He even says that like Kennean Alburry probably like just

1135
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 1: sort of plundered it off from the church library at

1136
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:13,120
Speaker 1: some point, because there's no library in tow anymore. He

1137
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,160
Speaker 1: just like, you know, at some point went installed all

1138
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 1: the best bits and hoarded them all in a scrap book.

1139
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:21,440
Speaker 1: They realized that wasn't a question. I just said, I

1140
01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:23,440
Speaker 1: just was telling you about this. No, no, no, no,

1141
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's it's an interesting and quite attractive

1142
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: thought really. Because one of the things that that happened

1143
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 1: in Commanderes during the French Revolution, there was a bomb

1144
01:03:33,480 --> 01:03:38,439
Speaker 1: fire made of all of the episcopal papers so that's

1145
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why sort of some elements of

1146
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,160
Speaker 1: church history there are not that well known um And

1147
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 1: so the idea that somebody might have removed all the

1148
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:49,920
Speaker 1: best bits and put them in a volume that had

1149
01:03:49,960 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 1: been hidden away somewhere is you know, it is a

1150
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:53,920
Speaker 1: really marvelous idea, and I think there's probably a bit

1151
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:57,320
Speaker 1: of wish fulfillment in that, you know, the idea that

1152
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 1: something would have survived. When we've slipping in the story

1153
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: of flipping through the book and he's describing all of

1154
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 1: these documents. You are ten illuminated manuscripts from Genesis, and

1155
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: do all of those things ring about? Do you kind

1156
01:04:10,680 --> 01:04:12,920
Speaker 1: of have meaning? You know what all those things mean

1157
01:04:13,000 --> 01:04:15,720
Speaker 1: that he's saying, yes, I do. But the thing that

1158
01:04:15,840 --> 01:04:18,640
Speaker 1: really drives me nuts is the bit where he where

1159
01:04:18,680 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: they take the book out or sort of it's it's

1160
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 1: wrapped up, and he's looking at it and he and

1161
01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 1: he's thinking, you know, what can it possibly be? You know,

1162
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:29,680
Speaker 1: can it be this? Can it be that? It's probably nothing,

1163
01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: it's probably some you know, some stupid missile of plant

1164
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: in printing or whatever. And I think, yeah, igine, if

1165
01:04:36,000 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 1: I could go to commands and find something like that. Now,

1166
01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 1: you know, because this is the thing, you know, a

1167
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,080
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty years later or whatever that you know,

1168
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,920
Speaker 1: there's there's so much less to discover. Everything has already

1169
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 1: been taken. So so yeah, that's so it's a really

1170
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:54,880
Speaker 1: terrible moment. What does that mean the missile has planted?

1171
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:58,560
Speaker 1: What does that part mean? Um? Well, you've got sort

1172
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,840
Speaker 1: of different types of kind of church books. You've got

1173
01:05:01,920 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 1: books of prayer, You've got um, you've got some that

1174
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 1: have kind of the bits that you would sing and

1175
01:05:08,880 --> 01:05:10,800
Speaker 1: kind of the bits that you would sing back to

1176
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: oh thank you, um, that you would sing back to

1177
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 1: people during services and stuff like that. So I think

1178
01:05:17,880 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: you know, lots of different types of books. Sorry, somebody

1179
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: just brought me a cup of tea, which it's lovely.

1180
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: I wish that I had an assistant or whoever that

1181
01:05:28,480 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 1: bringing a loved one that was just bringing me beverages.

1182
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,920
Speaker 1: But yes, it's very good. Actually I don't always get

1183
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:40,200
Speaker 1: this service. But the the first one I I can't

1184
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: even say it about to you. The first the thing

1185
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 1: that you just said, the plant is what is it

1186
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 1: of Plantain's printing? Planting is the printer? And I think

1187
01:05:49,200 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 1: that he was talking about a book that would have

1188
01:05:51,400 --> 01:05:55,439
Speaker 1: been printed in the Middle Ages, and that's just that's

1189
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,919
Speaker 1: just super common. Yeah, yeah, you know these are lying

1190
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:01,200
Speaker 1: around all over the place, you know, I hope it's

1191
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: not that. And then when they've got it, when it's

1192
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,800
Speaker 1: when the sacristan is like getting it out of the

1193
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 1: chest and bringing it to him, it's like, oh, yes,

1194
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: the shape of an anti finner. Now yea, what is

1195
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 1: an antifinner? I don't know. I think that's one of

1196
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:19,960
Speaker 1: the ones that has um, that has songs in it.

1197
01:06:20,080 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: But let me have a let me have a look,

1198
01:06:21,480 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 1: let me look like I didn't Yeah, I didn't know

1199
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 1: what I was going to ask you all the specific

1200
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,960
Speaker 1: church germanility. Now it's funny actually because I kind of

1201
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: refreshed my mind on a lot of things. So here

1202
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:34,280
Speaker 1: we go. Oh that's not too bad. And Antifonary is

1203
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:39,440
Speaker 1: one of the liturgical books intended for use in choro um.

1204
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: It's principally the antiphons used in various parts of the

1205
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:46,040
Speaker 1: Roman liturgy. So I've better look up what an antiphon is.

1206
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: I think that basically is just the bits where you

1207
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 1: sing back to each other. Yeah, a short sentence sung

1208
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 1: or recited before or after some organticle. So it's got

1209
01:06:57,160 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 1: a specific shape and he knows that it's by the

1210
01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 1: shape ape of the of the scrap book that that's

1211
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:06,200
Speaker 1: not it. Yeah, and then what do you remember all

1212
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 1: the some of the things that he finds and as

1213
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:14,040
Speaker 1: he's flipping through, Yeah, I mean from from what I remember,

1214
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 1: just sort of different bits of illuminated manuscript and whatever.

1215
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 1: I can't call to mind exactly what they are. Whenever

1216
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,320
Speaker 1: I read that, I'm always sort of waiting for him

1217
01:07:24,360 --> 01:07:27,800
Speaker 1: to get to the end, and I shore will turn

1218
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: on to the end. Yeah, m and see see the

1219
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:37,160
Speaker 1: illustration at the back. It's really a hilarious scene to

1220
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: talk about comedy again and and maybe even more so

1221
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:45,240
Speaker 1: on like a reread, because like you imagine the atmosphere

1222
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:47,400
Speaker 1: in the room, like the daughter and the sagar Ston

1223
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 1: are just like on edge, like they're trying to get

1224
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:55,560
Speaker 1: someone to take this demon. Yeah, they're going buy it

1225
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: by it, but trying not to seem too eager, and

1226
01:07:58,880 --> 01:08:03,200
Speaker 1: he's just going oh slowly right, Like you could really

1227
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:05,640
Speaker 1: play it for laughs, you know, if you were to

1228
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 1: adapt it into a TV show, like a sick arm whatever.

1229
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 1: He's just turning it so slowly. It's just like a

1230
01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,480
Speaker 1: good copy over there. Whatever, let's have a look and

1231
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 1: see what he actually what he's actually looking at there?

1232
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 1: Do you have do you maintain paper copies of M. R.

1233
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:29,680
Speaker 1: James stories? I've got this one here, which is it's

1234
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:31,759
Speaker 1: the second or third one I've had, and it's almost

1235
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,680
Speaker 1: falling to pieces because it's been loved so much. Yes,

1236
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 1: he said that. There's a hundred and fifty leaves of

1237
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 1: paper in the book, and on almost every one of

1238
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 1: them was fastened a leaf from an illuminated manuscript. There

1239
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:45,400
Speaker 1: were ten leaves from a copy of Genesis, which could

1240
01:08:45,439 --> 01:08:48,800
Speaker 1: not be later than a D. Seven hundred, and he

1241
01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 1: goes and there was twenty leaves of ankle writing in Latin,

1242
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:55,479
Speaker 1: which must belong to some very early unknown Petristic treaties.

1243
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:58,599
Speaker 1: There's a couple of adjectives in there that I don't

1244
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 1: know what they mean. Him, Yeah, I don't know what

1245
01:09:01,760 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 1: unky writing is. I think that must be a style

1246
01:09:03,600 --> 01:09:05,240
Speaker 1: of writing. I could look that up in a minute

1247
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 1: if you like, But must belong to some very early

1248
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,800
Speaker 1: unknown Petristic treatise. So it's it will have been some

1249
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:14,920
Speaker 1: sort of philosopher philosophical discussion on some aspect of theology

1250
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:18,320
Speaker 1: from the early Church, which you know, for you and

1251
01:09:18,400 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 1: me is probably kind of yawns. Philbert F. M. R.

1252
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:30,720
Speaker 1: James would have been really exciting. Turn on, turn on

1253
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 1: to the end? Is there is there basically, and he

1254
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 1: just it's illuminated. It's illuminated manuscript Yeah, most of it

1255
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:39,640
Speaker 1: is illuminated manuscripts. And so he gets on and he

1256
01:09:39,680 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: gets to the end, and first of all, he's got

1257
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,720
Speaker 1: this this kind of plan that shows the church and

1258
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,560
Speaker 1: the cloisters, and it's got sort of various kind of

1259
01:09:50,360 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 1: symbols inked into it, and that kind of you know,

1260
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,519
Speaker 1: should start make him, making him to sort of smell

1261
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 1: a rat and thinking of something peculiar is going on.

1262
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 1: And then he turns over the page and then there's

1263
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 1: this horrible picture. The horrible picture is interesting too because

1264
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:11,120
Speaker 1: there's obviously there's symbolism within it that I don't think

1265
01:10:11,160 --> 01:10:14,200
Speaker 1: that necessarily I have all the reference points. I certainly

1266
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: have different reference points than Mr James did that. So like,

1267
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 1: I know it's it's King Solomon. I know who King

1268
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:23,240
Speaker 1: Solomon is. And there's five soldiers, one of them is dead.

1269
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 1: And then there's the figure on the right that needs

1270
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 1: to be described at a moment, and obviously James describes

1271
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:31,800
Speaker 1: it really twice in the story and like the same

1272
01:10:31,920 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 1: detail all the way up to like intelligence not of

1273
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:37,320
Speaker 1: more than a beast, but not of a man, and

1274
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,760
Speaker 1: hair on the fingers and long curled talent nails, and

1275
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:45,599
Speaker 1: the first thing you see is the massive black hair.

1276
01:10:45,720 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 1: And he really does it twice. He somehow pulls off

1277
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: doing basically the same description twice and you don't even

1278
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:56,519
Speaker 1: remember the second time. You know, it's all that stuff again. No, yeah,

1279
01:10:56,640 --> 01:11:00,920
Speaker 1: I mean I love that first description though, because apart

1280
01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:02,720
Speaker 1: from I think actually also you have you have that

1281
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,120
Speaker 1: sense with Denniston that you're looking at the picture and

1282
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 1: you're gradually kind of the nastiness of it is sinking in,

1283
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:10,200
Speaker 1: because when you first look at it, you see all

1284
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:12,439
Speaker 1: this hair, and it's not until you've been looking at

1285
01:11:12,479 --> 01:11:14,599
Speaker 1: it for a little while that you see what it's covering,

1286
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:19,439
Speaker 1: which is really quite nasty. You know, that slowly sort

1287
01:11:19,479 --> 01:11:23,080
Speaker 1: of sinks in. Do you think that there's I mean,

1288
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 1: there's got to be a particular reason for for that

1289
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:33,160
Speaker 1: setting amidst King Solomon with soldiers and the throne and

1290
01:11:33,240 --> 01:11:36,800
Speaker 1: all the sort of specifics of the scene that he's

1291
01:11:37,040 --> 01:11:40,879
Speaker 1: that he that he paints there. Yeah. I mean, basically,

1292
01:11:40,960 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 1: I think what this comes down to is that there's

1293
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:47,120
Speaker 1: a whole kind of tradition of of of legends and

1294
01:11:47,200 --> 01:11:51,479
Speaker 1: stories about King Solomon and demons and um. One of

1295
01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:55,719
Speaker 1: the one of these is a thing called the Testament

1296
01:11:55,800 --> 01:12:00,080
Speaker 1: of Solomon, which M. L. James was definitely acquainted it,

1297
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 1: that describes some of these interchanges and um. Supposedly King

1298
01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: Solomon built the first temple on the Mountain Jerusalem with

1299
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:12,120
Speaker 1: the help of demons, and he's supposed to I mean,

1300
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:14,280
Speaker 1: there's all sorts of legends about this, and I'm not

1301
01:12:14,360 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 1: a complete expert on it, but I think he's supposed

1302
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 1: to have controlled them by means of some kind of

1303
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 1: ring or whatever. And there's also some kind of stories

1304
01:12:22,479 --> 01:12:25,439
Speaker 1: as well that later in his life, having kind of

1305
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:28,400
Speaker 1: lived up until then a folly, very virtuous life, he

1306
01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:32,720
Speaker 1: had um I think, sacrifice to another god or something other,

1307
01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:35,639
Speaker 1: or converted to a different religion in order to marry

1308
01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:37,760
Speaker 1: somebody else, and at that point fell into the hands

1309
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 1: of demons. So there's a whole load of kind of

1310
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: weird and slightly apocryphal stories about him and demons, and

1311
01:12:44,160 --> 01:12:47,640
Speaker 1: that's probably why he's been chosen here for this. You know,

1312
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:49,559
Speaker 1: it's not just any old picture of a demon. There's

1313
01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 1: King Solomon is there with it. Oh that's that someone

1314
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:57,080
Speaker 1: is to do an HBO series or something. But I

1315
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 1: mean that's sounds like a crazy yeah, I mean apocryphals. Sure, surely, yeah,

1316
01:13:03,320 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: you'd revel some feathers with that one. That's not just

1317
01:13:05,479 --> 01:13:10,800
Speaker 1: using the word termagant wife. No, no, no, Um, well,

1318
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:13,080
Speaker 1: I mean, as I said, I did write another article

1319
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:15,160
Speaker 1: about this, which is kind of too long to go

1320
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 1: into here, but it was called The Nature of the Beast.

1321
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 1: I was looking specifically at whether we could say that

1322
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:24,760
Speaker 1: this was a specific demon. You know, is this just

1323
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:27,519
Speaker 1: any old demon or can we identify who it is?

1324
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:30,960
Speaker 1: So I looked at loads and loads and loads of stuff. Um,

1325
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 1: And you know, it's very very speculative because you know,

1326
01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:37,080
Speaker 1: we can't really know what was in Mr James's mind,

1327
01:13:37,160 --> 01:13:39,960
Speaker 1: and I suppose it's possible that he could have put

1328
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:42,680
Speaker 1: completely random things in though kind of based on his

1329
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 1: other stories, I think it's unlikely that it was really random. Um,

1330
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:49,760
Speaker 1: But I mean the Testament of Solomon. I discussed at

1331
01:13:49,800 --> 01:13:53,639
Speaker 1: some length, and also sort of various other legends about

1332
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,880
Speaker 1: Solomon and the demons as well. Yeah, that's a whole

1333
01:13:56,920 --> 01:14:00,519
Speaker 1: kind of worms really, even the even the idea that

1334
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 1: Cannon Albreak is this fictional character, but he's a descendant

1335
01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: of this real person who in this real town. Like

1336
01:14:09,560 --> 01:14:12,519
Speaker 1: it's like, I suppose that's that's really sort of the

1337
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 1: aim of your project, right, like to sort of find

1338
01:14:14,600 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 1: that place where it's like he starts feathering in the

1339
01:14:18,200 --> 01:14:21,760
Speaker 1: stuff that's just from his own imagination. I feel like

1340
01:14:21,800 --> 01:14:23,519
Speaker 1: maybe I hit this point too many times, Alady, but

1341
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,479
Speaker 1: like from my vantage point, it's just like someone that's

1342
01:14:25,479 --> 01:14:27,640
Speaker 1: like from a very different place, in a very different ara,

1343
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 1: with a very different background, but like also just really

1344
01:14:30,280 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 1: loves ephemera and and uh and and ghost stories and

1345
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 1: I think those things are really often very interconnected. It's

1346
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,519
Speaker 1: so compelling and like I don't even I do care

1347
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:41,720
Speaker 1: what's real, Like that's why I'm talking to you, but

1348
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 1: like I also just it's I've swept away by it.

1349
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 1: It's it's such a it's such a a force, especially

1350
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 1: hearing out loud because I don't read Latin. Hearing out loud, Uh,

1351
01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:55,920
Speaker 1: someone read through all the Latin and the fringe and

1352
01:14:56,160 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 1: and pull it all together. It's got like a very

1353
01:14:59,160 --> 01:15:01,600
Speaker 1: tight quality, like I think if it's sort of like

1354
01:15:01,840 --> 01:15:05,120
Speaker 1: a like documentary and there's a documentary element in it,

1355
01:15:05,680 --> 01:15:08,519
Speaker 1: because like you learn about this, this town and this

1356
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:12,320
Speaker 1: and this old church that are real, actual real places. Yeah,

1357
01:15:12,360 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I I find this fascinating as well, and

1358
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:18,439
Speaker 1: it and it interests me also because I mean, obviously

1359
01:15:19,160 --> 01:15:23,439
Speaker 1: I'm a writer myself, and I often use real places

1360
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:26,600
Speaker 1: and real events, though not usually real people, but you know,

1361
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,720
Speaker 1: real places, real settings, real legends and stuff like that

1362
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,880
Speaker 1: to base things on. And I don't put things in

1363
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:37,560
Speaker 1: the too random, and it's kind of inimical, too inimical

1364
01:15:37,640 --> 01:15:39,760
Speaker 1: to my nature to do that. I like something to

1365
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,320
Speaker 1: have meanings. I'm a great fan of Victorian literature for this,

1366
01:15:42,680 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, specific reason. I like everything to be there

1367
01:15:45,120 --> 01:15:47,479
Speaker 1: for a for a purpose. And I feel as though

1368
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:50,439
Speaker 1: he feels to me as though very much the same

1369
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,160
Speaker 1: sort of writer. I don't think that he put things

1370
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:54,920
Speaker 1: in because they were random, which is one of the

1371
01:15:55,000 --> 01:15:57,840
Speaker 1: reasons why I'm interested in teasing these things out. At

1372
01:15:57,920 --> 01:16:02,280
Speaker 1: what point did he start inventing? I mean, with some

1373
01:16:02,479 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 1: things like the Treasure of Abbott Thomas. We can know

1374
01:16:06,880 --> 01:16:09,400
Speaker 1: there are there are some books here quoted that didn't exist.

1375
01:16:09,960 --> 01:16:13,120
Speaker 1: But even then you know he's he's written a very

1376
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 1: very convincing kind of pasticheous part of this imaginable, you know,

1377
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,760
Speaker 1: imaginary book, and so you think, well, it could have existed,

1378
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:27,080
Speaker 1: and it's convincing, so it feels real. I find that

1379
01:16:27,160 --> 01:16:30,960
Speaker 1: really fascinating. It's a great trick. And he did it

1380
01:16:31,040 --> 01:16:33,720
Speaker 1: over and over and over. I mean he did a

1381
01:16:33,760 --> 01:16:38,479
Speaker 1: lot of homework. Yes, he clearly he did. If you

1382
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 1: like this this sort of writing, though, I mean other

1383
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 1: authors that I would definitely recommender, obviously as Sheridan the Fano,

1384
01:16:45,080 --> 01:16:47,800
Speaker 1: who slightly predates m R James and who Mr James

1385
01:16:48,080 --> 01:16:52,679
Speaker 1: immensely admired. My favorite one is schalkin the Painter, which

1386
01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 1: is a really marvelous story. I think that that's that's

1387
01:16:56,120 --> 01:17:00,600
Speaker 1: brilliantly scary. Um. And there's the old that went with

1388
01:17:00,680 --> 01:17:05,680
Speaker 1: the Fairies. Um, there's Madame Krall's Ghost. I like that

1389
01:17:05,840 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 1: a lot. That's about a little girl who who gets

1390
01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 1: taken on to be an assistant at a house where

1391
01:17:10,920 --> 01:17:16,920
Speaker 1: there's this very rich and slightly um, slightly um. Well,

1392
01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,600
Speaker 1: it's difficult to tell whether she actually has dementia or

1393
01:17:19,640 --> 01:17:22,080
Speaker 1: whether she's just tormented by her own thoughts. But this

1394
01:17:22,280 --> 01:17:25,960
Speaker 1: very strange old lady who, because she's so rich, is

1395
01:17:26,040 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 1: constantly indulged because it is extremely frightening. She has his

1396
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 1: massively great long fingernails, and where's all this huge amount

1397
01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:34,960
Speaker 1: of makeup in spite of the fact that she's about

1398
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:38,080
Speaker 1: a hundred and five. There's others of his that are

1399
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 1: sort of better known, like The Familiar, but The Shark

1400
01:17:40,439 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 1: and the Painter is my favorite one. First of all

1401
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 1: Langdon certainly Abby. If you google firmly Abbey, it's th

1402
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:50,960
Speaker 1: hu r n l e Y And as far as

1403
01:17:51,040 --> 01:17:52,720
Speaker 1: I know, that's the only story he wrote, but it

1404
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:58,240
Speaker 1: scares the purchases out of me. Very nasty story. The

1405
01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:01,320
Speaker 1: other person that I think is it is Tom Rolt,

1406
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:05,760
Speaker 1: who wrote a series of ghost stories under the name

1407
01:18:06,040 --> 01:18:09,439
Speaker 1: LTC Rolt. So it's R. O. L. T Um and

1408
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:12,720
Speaker 1: I think the his book was called Sleep No More

1409
01:18:13,800 --> 01:18:16,479
Speaker 1: and he's slightly later than M. R. James, though not

1410
01:18:16,640 --> 01:18:19,000
Speaker 1: much later. But there's some great stories in that which

1411
01:18:19,040 --> 01:18:21,439
Speaker 1: are sort of quite James in but they have got

1412
01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:25,760
Speaker 1: more of an industrial atmosphere. There's one set in factories

1413
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:30,000
Speaker 1: and canals, and there's a railway one, and those are

1414
01:18:30,040 --> 01:18:32,280
Speaker 1: great because there's an awful lot of people out there

1415
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 1: doing James and pastiche and you think, well, that does

1416
01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:38,639
Speaker 1: eventually get a bit old, but he's he's done something.

1417
01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:41,759
Speaker 1: It is often James in in flavor, but completely different settings,

1418
01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,680
Speaker 1: which is super. That's really good. You said you had

1419
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:48,960
Speaker 1: pictures of your trip. I'm not going to, but what

1420
01:18:49,120 --> 01:18:51,200
Speaker 1: I can do is send you a whole bunch of them,

1421
01:18:51,240 --> 01:18:52,760
Speaker 1: and any of them that you want to use, you

1422
01:18:52,840 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: can use one of them. Bizarrely, but my dad had

1423
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:57,960
Speaker 1: just taken a candid shot of me talking to one

1424
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,280
Speaker 1: of these old guides and that you know it, and

1425
01:19:00,439 --> 01:19:03,559
Speaker 1: he looks really grumpy and kind of disgruntled and miserable.

1426
01:19:03,600 --> 01:19:06,040
Speaker 1: He's waving his arms around and stuff. But you know,

1427
01:19:06,080 --> 01:19:09,120
Speaker 1: I remember him has been quite a genial guy. But yeah,

1428
01:19:09,160 --> 01:19:16,519
Speaker 1: there we are in conversation seventeen years ago. They're so similar.

1429
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:19,719
Speaker 1: And then I'm gonna let you go. There's so similar

1430
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,479
Speaker 1: to the situation that Dennis does in talking with the

1431
01:19:23,280 --> 01:19:26,280
Speaker 1: I mean you you you realize that the great parallel

1432
01:19:26,439 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 1: there now and now you're talking about this like as

1433
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,880
Speaker 1: if it's a long time ago. Like next, it's going

1434
01:19:31,920 --> 01:19:35,360
Speaker 1: to be me going to follow in Helen Grant's footsteps

1435
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,519
Speaker 1: of looking into the naves. Yeah, yeah, you said, do

1436
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 1: they think you know, like sort of twenty or thirty

1437
01:19:40,960 --> 01:19:43,439
Speaker 1: years down the line, Yeah, this will be you with

1438
01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:46,040
Speaker 1: your grandkids or whatever. Say, oh, yes, I remember talking

1439
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:48,360
Speaker 1: to that, Helen Groant. Somebody might be doing this with

1440
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 1: your story someday. You know. Well, I hope so right, Yeah,

1441
01:19:53,920 --> 01:19:55,280
Speaker 1: I mean what more could I want to hope for?

1442
01:19:55,680 --> 01:19:58,120
Speaker 1: I mean, something to hope for, isn't it. It's like

1443
01:19:58,360 --> 01:20:01,960
Speaker 1: that's like being a pretty, you know, m pleasant ghost

1444
01:20:02,720 --> 01:20:06,040
Speaker 1: like Mr James is a pretty enjoyable ghost in your

1445
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 1: life hanging around. Absolutely. Ah. Helen Grant's newest novel is

1446
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,439
Speaker 1: Too Near the Death, which is a ghost story set

1447
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:46,960
Speaker 1: here in Perth Year and in fact uses a lot

1448
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:48,960
Speaker 1: of the same thing Mr James does in that it's

1449
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:53,240
Speaker 1: a mix of real stuff and kind of invented stuff.

1450
01:20:53,560 --> 01:20:56,280
Speaker 1: And there's probably more real stuff than there is invented.

1451
01:20:56,479 --> 01:20:59,800
Speaker 1: You know. Most of the locations are real available now

1452
01:21:00,040 --> 01:21:04,240
Speaker 1: where books are sold. Yeah, I mean in the UK

1453
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:07,800
Speaker 1: you can get them from Waterstones and black oils in

1454
01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 1: places like that in the States, I'm not sure. Um yeah,

1455
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:15,879
Speaker 1: obviously the roaded Amazon, and I would imagine that possibly

1456
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:18,320
Speaker 1: the book Depository or somebody would have them. I mean,

1457
01:21:18,320 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 1: in fact, I saw it was listed on Walmart the

1458
01:21:20,240 --> 01:21:22,519
Speaker 1: other day, but I thought, it can't really be even

1459
01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:25,360
Speaker 1: on their website. But you know, there will be somebody.

1460
01:21:26,760 --> 01:21:30,400
Speaker 1: There will be somebody other than the dreaded Amazon. Find

1461
01:21:30,479 --> 01:21:34,120
Speaker 1: pictures from her trip and the article that inspired this conversation.

1462
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:37,840
Speaker 1: He was laughing in the church. A visit to St.

1463
01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 1: Bertrand de Commange. On our website, Ephemeral Dutch Show, You're

1464
01:21:44,080 --> 01:21:47,720
Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart Radio by visiting the iHeart Radio app,

1465
01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:51,799
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows