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Speaker 1: Trust me?

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Speaker 2: Do you trust me?

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Speaker 3: All?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 2: Ever lead you astray?

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Speaker 3: Trust?

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Speaker 1: This is the truth, the only truth.

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Speaker 5: If anybody ever tells you to just trust them, don't

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Speaker 5: welcome trust me. The podcast about cults, extreme belief and

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Speaker 5: manipulation from two non two by twos who've actually experienced it,

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Speaker 5: and I am Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth,

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Speaker 5: an actual former two by two Right here today, our

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Speaker 5: guests are Abby and Mike Prusach, former members of Megan's

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Speaker 5: childhood cult. The two by two is also known as

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Speaker 5: The Truth.

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Speaker 2: Or The Way.

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Speaker 5: Aby and Mike are the other two moderators of the

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Speaker 5: x two by two Facebook group, alongside our previous guest

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Speaker 5: Kyle and Cary. Today, Mike and Abby are going to

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Speaker 5: tell us about their upbringing in the mysterious church that

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Speaker 5: has no name and no official building, how they met

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Speaker 5: and got married in the church, and the simple question

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Speaker 5: that led to them both leaving.

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Speaker 6: Mike and Abby were super generous with their time, so

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Speaker 6: this conversation will be split into two parts. Next week,

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Speaker 6: we're going to talk about the FBI investigation of the church,

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Speaker 6: the staggering number of perpetrators that have been named, and

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Speaker 6: how rarely the sexual abuse was reported to authorities, and

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Speaker 6: what's been happening to the group as a result of

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Speaker 6: these bombshells.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it was time for an update on what has

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Speaker 5: been going on in the two x two investigation and

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Speaker 5: the aftermath of all of this stuff coming out, So

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Speaker 5: you will hear more about it soon. But also we'll

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Speaker 5: hear just about Abby and Mike and their upbringings and

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Speaker 5: how they fell in love.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and how they you know, they fell in love

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Speaker 6: in the combines of this high control cult.

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Speaker 2: So it's all very interesting stuff.

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Speaker 5: Indeed, Yeah, before we hear more about it from them themselves.

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Speaker 2: What is your cultiest thing this week?

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Speaker 6: Okay, So Alison mac she was in Smallville. That's a

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Speaker 6: CW show, not a cult, but she was the lead

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Speaker 6: of this show on CW cult Small Belt. Then she

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Speaker 6: joined Nexium and she became one of the leaders of

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Speaker 6: Nexium with Nary. She got out of prison a couple

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Speaker 6: of years ago, I think twenty twenty three. She didn't

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Speaker 6: serve her full time, she got out a couple years early,

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Speaker 6: and she is now the latest subject of a CBC

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Speaker 6: podcast called Uncover Alison after Nexium, where she talks about

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Speaker 6: her experiences and a series of interviews. The press release

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Speaker 6: says that through raw interviews and revealing conversations with those

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Speaker 6: who knew her before, during, and after Nexium, this season

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Speaker 6: dives deep into the gray zones of influence, accountability, and redemption.

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Speaker 2: So I'm curious about this podcast.

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Speaker 6: Allison, you know, really falls into that gray zone for me,

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Speaker 6: where it depends on what moment of the day I'm

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Speaker 6: thinking about her.

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Speaker 2: Like, sometimes I'll be.

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Speaker 6: M hm, damn, what that poor woman, Like, how did

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Speaker 6: she get coerced so far off the path that she

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Speaker 6: like ends up leaving this career and living in a

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Speaker 6: small town and like doing all this crazy shit. And

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Speaker 6: then other times I'm like they were branding women, you know,

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Speaker 6: like almost cattle branding women with Keith's initials, but like

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Speaker 6: one of the initials in there the women eventually discovered

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Speaker 6: was Alison's. And so then my brain is like, no,

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Speaker 6: she's obviously like and then I just go back and forth,

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Speaker 6: back and forth, back and forth. But I'm curious to

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Speaker 6: hear her side of the story. I also, I hope

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Speaker 6: we can interview her.

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Speaker 2: I hope so too.

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Speaker 6: I would love to speak to her because my gut

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Speaker 6: reactions on her flip flops so much.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, which which I think is reasonable because like, how

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Speaker 5: do we ever know where the balance is between when

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Speaker 5: someone is a victim and a perpetrator at the same time,

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Speaker 5: Like where is that line of accountability? It's impossible to know.

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Speaker 5: I mean we kind of almost just have to draw

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Speaker 5: it arbitrarily. But she did serve time in prison for

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Speaker 5: her participation, so yeah, it'll be really interesting. Also, it's

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Speaker 5: just like it's actually so crazy because we started this

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Speaker 5: podcast five years ago and we were talking about Alison

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Speaker 5: Mack then, and we were like, oh, she ever gonna

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Speaker 5: wake up? She's been arrested, you know, like, and she

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Speaker 5: was the reason that Nexium was that Nextium, not the Nexium.

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Speaker 5: She's the reason Nexium was in the news so much

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Speaker 5: because she was this like famous actress.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 5: It was like the big reason for all those headlines

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Speaker 5: because a lot of cults do crazy shit and they

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Speaker 5: don't make it's not that big of a story in

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Speaker 5: the news because it's just no one's heard of it

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Speaker 5: because no one's famous.

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Speaker 6: She she brought a level of credibility with her fame

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Speaker 6: that ultimately was its downfall ironically, totally.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So I hope she comes on Alison please come on.

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Speaker 6: So any celebrities want to join the two by twos

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Speaker 6: and then leave feel free? Uh, it might help the

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Speaker 6: processed movie ostigation. Yeah, Lola, what about you? What's your

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Speaker 6: cultiest thing of the week?

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Speaker 5: Mine is dumb and it's a video that a couple

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Speaker 5: people sent me. Yourself included, which is a video this

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Speaker 5: girl made about how Benson Boone like does backflips. Benson

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Speaker 5: Boone is a former Mormon and popstar turned.

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Speaker 2: Pop star popstar, and you didn't know who he was,

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Speaker 2: so just for our okay, But like, I mean, I

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Speaker 2: knew he existed. I knew that Benson Boone existed.

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Speaker 5: But I went to the Spotify and I was like,

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Speaker 5: this has two and a half billion plays and I

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Speaker 5: have never heard this song? How is this possible? But

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Speaker 5: you know, I guess I'm flirting with other genres. Anyway,

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Speaker 5: he did this backflip and apparently everyone's like, oh wow,

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Speaker 5: Benson Boone's backflip. But this former Mormon girl went online

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Speaker 5: and is like, Mormon's do backflip. Mormon boys do backflips.

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Speaker 5: That's how they attract attention. It's their version of peacocking.

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Speaker 5: They don't drink. They don't smoke, and she just shows

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Speaker 5: all these videos of like Mormon boys doing backflips outside.

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Speaker 2: It's so funny.

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Speaker 6: Yes, yeah, I mean rightgular boys, regular boys, non Mormon

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Speaker 6: boys also also do backflips. But the ratio of high

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Speaker 6: control the religious group backflips compared to none would be staggering.

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Speaker 2: Somebody needs to do a study on it.

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Speaker 6: Because even as I was telling you, like the two

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Speaker 6: by two boys, Mike in this episode was like, yeah,

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Speaker 6: a snowboard, And I was like, I bet Mike rips

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Speaker 6: on a snowboard because, like the two by twos add

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Speaker 6: an extra layer of like not having a television, which

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Speaker 6: back in the day was a big deal because we

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Speaker 6: didn't have iPhones or screens.

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Speaker 5: But back to Benson, yeah, I mean, you're not drinking

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Speaker 5: at the party.

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Speaker 2: What are you gonna do? You can't you can't go, Like.

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Speaker 5: The only way to attract attention, clearly is to do

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Speaker 5: a backflip in the middle of the party.

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Speaker 2: There's no alternative. Aha. I was like trying to.

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Speaker 5: Remember if boys I grew up with did backflips, and

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Speaker 5: I'm like, I feel like I vaguely remember it, but

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Speaker 5: I feel like it was just like normal boys stuff

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Speaker 5: I don't.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a recollection of like whether the ratio

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Speaker 2: was higher was get I guarantee it.

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Speaker 6: Like I can do a double flip on the trampoline,

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Speaker 6: not to brag, I can also do like very intensive

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Speaker 6: tricks on the pogo stick.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry what, I'm sorry? The Yeah, I have fun

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Speaker 2: in my garage right now. And I took everyone out

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Speaker 2: the other day and was like.

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Speaker 6: Showing them, you have to post a video of this.

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Speaker 6: It'll be like the two by two women version of

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Speaker 6: the Mormon boy Back.

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Speaker 2: Yes you have to.

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Speaker 6: But I wasn't athletic enough for it to impress any boys.

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Speaker 5: Wow, I feel like Mormon girls. It was just like piano. Oh,

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Speaker 5: like every Mormon girl I know got so good at piano. Yes,

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Speaker 5: I quit when I was a child, which is ironic

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Speaker 5: because I'm the only one I know who actually ended

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Speaker 5: up doing music for a living.

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Speaker 2: I have no idea to play piano.

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Speaker 5: But all the Mormon girls are so good at pianost

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Speaker 5: like Christmas time, they fucking wit it's so good.

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Speaker 2: Wow it I mean it is.

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Speaker 6: It is interesting to just think about, you know, when

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Speaker 6: you're forced into other options, what comes out? And it's

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Speaker 6: usually backflips, piano and pogo sticking.

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Speaker 2: The three necessities in life. Okay, cool, and let's talk

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Speaker 2: to Mike and Abby.

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Speaker 5: Welcome Abby and Mike prusak to trust me. Thank you

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Speaker 5: for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Thank you very much for having us. I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to digging in same.

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Speaker 5: We're so happy to talk to you guys, because we

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Speaker 5: needed two by two updates so badly. Meghan has told

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Speaker 5: me all about the Facebook group, which y'all are the

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Speaker 5: other admins of, in addition to Kyl and Carry who

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Speaker 5: we had on previously.

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Speaker 2: Right, so can you start telling us a little.

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Speaker 5: Bit about both of your backgrounds and how you ended

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Speaker 5: up in the two by twos?

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Speaker 1: Initially you want to go ahead and start.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so my parents were converted in so I am

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Speaker 3: just second generation, so not as I don't have the

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Speaker 3: heritage that many people have that Mike has.

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Speaker 5: Wait, I want how did your parents get converted? Because

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Speaker 5: I thought nobody really converted.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm actually a little bit fuzzy on the details, but

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Speaker 3: I know that they'd each had a previous spouse, and

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Speaker 3: I think they were kind of looking for some stability,

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Speaker 3: which is really the reason most people end up joining

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Speaker 3: groups like this. For one reason or another. They're often

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Speaker 3: in a place where they are seeking stability or safety

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Speaker 3: or community. And I know that my mom had been

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Speaker 3: shopping around to different churches and just had never felt

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Speaker 3: quite right with any of them. And so I don't

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Speaker 3: know what the exact story is. I feel like they

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Speaker 3: were broken down in the like another family that a

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Speaker 3: lot of people know came and helped them, and that

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Speaker 3: I could be wrong on that, but for some reason,

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Speaker 3: that's in my head. But basically, yeah, they were just

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Speaker 3: converted in by another family and my mom went home

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Speaker 3: and threw away all the TV's.

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Speaker 5: And wow, yeah this was before you were born or yes, okay,

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Speaker 5: because I would say if you'd been born that, if

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Speaker 5: you were a kid, that I'd be pissed.

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Speaker 3: And yeah, I had a couple of my siblings were born,

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Speaker 3: maybe three, I can't remember. At least two, possibly three.

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Speaker 3: I'm the youngest of five. Okay, there were there were

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Speaker 3: a few kids already, And yeah, I think that transition

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Speaker 3: was hard for them.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, did she jump into the uniform dress and the

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Speaker 6: hair immediately off the bat?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And of course I wasn't around, you know, right

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Speaker 3: at that time, but yeah, I kind of have this

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Speaker 3: there is a certain type of person who converts in,

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Speaker 3: who goes bullhog like, they try to prove themselves and

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Speaker 3: really like fit in because people who convert in aren't

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Speaker 3: really insiders, right, right, And so you do everything you

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Speaker 3: can to like play the role of the insiders so

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Speaker 3: that you're fully accepted into the middle, the center of

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Speaker 3: the flock, you know. So anyway, they really kind of

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Speaker 3: worked hard at following the rules. And I had probably

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Speaker 3: a more strict childhood than some people did. We really

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Speaker 3: really tried to go stay inside the lines.

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Speaker 5: Can you give us, like a just a basic description

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Speaker 5: of what your childhood in the two way twos was like?

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Speaker 2: And where were you living?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I when I was born, we were living

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Speaker 3: in Astoria, Oregon. But when I was five, we moved

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Speaker 3: to northern Idaho, and that's where I consider most of

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Speaker 3: my childhood. I lived there through seventh grade, and then

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Speaker 3: we moved to Grace Harbor, Washington on the coast for

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Speaker 3: the rest of my middle school and high school years.

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Speaker 3: But my younger childhood was all in North Idaho. So

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I mean, I it's kind of hard

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Speaker 3: because a lot of us want to say, oh, I

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Speaker 3: had a pretty good childhood, you know, I was relatively safe.

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Speaker 3: Turns out there actually were a lot of instances in

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Speaker 3: which I was not safe. But I I think I

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Speaker 3: had a pretty classic too. By two childhood, we didn't

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Speaker 3: have some of the like we didn't have the TV

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Speaker 3: in our closet. We were stricter than that saying I

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Speaker 3: wore Yeah, I wore dresses all the time to school. Now,

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Speaker 3: there were exceptions for when I was you know, like

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Speaker 3: riding the four wheeler at home and stuff like that,

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Speaker 3: which I'm grateful for that I didn't just get stopped

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Speaker 3: from doing those activities. There were some things I did,

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Speaker 3: some sports. I think that it was hard to keep

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Speaker 3: me still, so I think that was probably really good

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Speaker 3: for me.

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Speaker 5: A lot of people were not allowed A lot of

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Speaker 5: kids were not allowed to play sports.

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Speaker 3: Is that Yeah, There certainly are kind of two types.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there were I know quite a few families

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Speaker 3: who did play sports, and then there were quite a

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Speaker 3: few who did not, especially for the girls.

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Speaker 6: Because you would have to wear pants, you know, you

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Speaker 6: would have to wear pants. Are sure it's if you're

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Speaker 6: oh is a modesty thing. It's a modesty thing. But

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Speaker 6: also if it's not that you are going to miss meeting. Yep,

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Speaker 6: Like you're gonna have to go to a weekend thing,

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Speaker 6: You're gonna have to miss a Wednesday Like I know

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Speaker 6: people who could have been professional athletes who are their parents.

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Speaker 2: Really, you're not missing Wednesday night meeting?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: No, I had to. I had to tell my coaches

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Speaker 3: immediately once I joined a team that like, I won't

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Speaker 3: be at any Wednesday night practices and I won't be

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Speaker 3: anywhere on Sunday morning. So we would travel for like

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Speaker 3: a basketball tournament, and even I was like a I

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Speaker 3: was a very important player at this time that I'm

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Speaker 3: remembering this specific tournament we went to Oregon for and

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Speaker 3: we had a game on Sunday morning, but we went

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Speaker 3: to meeting and then just like jetted out of there

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Speaker 3: to the game. But there was absolutely no way I

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Speaker 3: was going to miss meeting, even for like a championship game.

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Speaker 2: Ever.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, ever, Wow, Really I've never been on a vacation

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Speaker 6: where we didn't find a meeting. Will be in a

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Speaker 6: different country, a different whatever. We are finding a house

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Speaker 6: and we are going to ats house that doesn't even

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Speaker 6: speak our language, and we're going to meet it.

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Speaker 2: How are you find how do you find them?

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Speaker 3: You just and you just walk in the door. Really.

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Speaker 2: Wow, Yes, you don't even some houses have.

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Speaker 3: You know, the elder will stand there and maybe open

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Speaker 3: the door for you. But there are many houses in

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Speaker 3: like especially I think when I was younger, I don't

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Speaker 3: remember that happening so much. I remember the elder sitting

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Speaker 3: in the living room with everybody else. So you would

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Speaker 3: just have the address so you would contact your workers,

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Speaker 3: I believe who would contact their workers if this is

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Speaker 3: I'm remembering correctly, who would give you the contact information

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Speaker 3: of the elders where you were, so you would get

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Speaker 3: this address and then you would just go and walk

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Speaker 3: in the door and sit in their living room.

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Speaker 6: Wow.

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Speaker 5: And for listeners who maybe haven't heard our other two

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Speaker 5: by two episodes, this religion does not take place in churches.

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Speaker 5: It takes place in people's homes. The services are in

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Speaker 5: people's homes. Megan, can you want to give just like

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Speaker 5: a brief little yeah.

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Speaker 6: I mean Biblically, they are saying that Jesus said like,

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Speaker 6: churches aren't buildings, and so we've they've taken we've bave

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Speaker 6: taken that very literally to be like we're putting it

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Speaker 6: in houses, and so the normal meetings the Wednesday Sunday

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Speaker 6: morning meetings are in homes and then if there is

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Speaker 6: a gospel meeting or a bigger meeting, it'll be in

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Speaker 6: like a public place sometimes, but it's not usually a church.

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Speaker 2: It's usually a funeral home, like.

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Speaker 3: A community center or a school GM or something like that.

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Speaker 5: And the reason I asked how you knew where to

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Speaker 5: go was because this is not a public facing. There's

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Speaker 5: not like a website, right because allegedly there's no name

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Speaker 5: for the religion.

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Speaker 6: And then yes, it's all kind of a secret little

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Speaker 6: network that is linking everybody to the correct meeting to

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Speaker 6: go to.

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Speaker 2: And you're in a different place.

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Speaker 5: And workers means you're sort of ministers.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd be in Mike if you want

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Speaker 6: to give a quick worker rundown for a reminder for people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the workers are are the ministers, and they they

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Speaker 1: go out in pairs to know whatever geographic region they're

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Speaker 1: overseer assigns them to that year, and they live in

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Speaker 1: the homes with the congregants. So you know they'll they'll

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Speaker 1: show up. I mean they won't just show up, they'll

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Speaker 1: usually like give people heads up. Sometimes they show up

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Speaker 1: not unheard of and they'll you know, hang out and

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Speaker 1: live there for two to three days usually as kind

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Speaker 1: of the standard. But you know, in some places where

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Speaker 1: there's not as many members, then it can sometimes be

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Speaker 1: a week or even two weeks.

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Speaker 5: That's a lot of traveling. I didn't realize that it

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Speaker 5: was that short of stays. I assumed it was weeks.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, I'm bouncing around.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And it just depends. You know, we grew

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Speaker 1: up in kind of the Seattle area, so there there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people there, and so they didn't have

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Speaker 1: to stay for very long. They had plenty of houses

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Speaker 1: to jump around from, whereas some places Midwest or on

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Speaker 1: the East Coast, they might be you know, there might

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Speaker 1: only be like ten people in the whole place.

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Speaker 6: Being on tour at all times, it is like being

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Speaker 6: on tour at all times. And in the Midwest, we

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Speaker 6: got some of them on tour for months at a

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Speaker 6: time because there wasn't that many people.

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Speaker 3: And it's hard for them, like of course, they don't

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Speaker 3: have any privacy, they don't have a home, they don't

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Speaker 3: have like I know, for me, I need a place

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Speaker 3: where I can go isolate. Yeah, sometimes I call it

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Speaker 3: my sensory deprivation. Chamber, turn off the lights, close the doors.

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Speaker 3: I need somewhere where I can cocoon, and they never

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Speaker 3: have that.

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Speaker 6: Really, They're like not twenty four hours a day like forever,

356
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Speaker 6: there's no Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 3: They do spend quite a bit of time in their

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Speaker 3: bedroom when they're staying somewhere. Often they will spend a

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Speaker 3: lot of time in their bedroom studying or something. From

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Speaker 3: what I understand, for X workers, a lot of it

361
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Speaker 3: is just like trying to survive, like trying to escape

362
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Speaker 3: a little bit and just have some have some time

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Speaker 3: to yourself.

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Speaker 2: Do they have to share a room with each other?

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Speaker 3: It depends, Okay, sometimes okay, Sometimes they share a bed, Sometimes.

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Speaker 1: They share beds. So I have a story. So my

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Speaker 1: brother was a worker up until May of this year

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Speaker 1: and realized that Mike, yeah, I think I think I

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Speaker 1: can tell this story. I hope Evan will forgive me

370
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Speaker 1: if if it's not okay. But yeah, So he went

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Speaker 1: into a home one time and they just had a

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Speaker 1: single bed in the bedroom and they had a baby

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Speaker 1: crib as well. So my my brother is on the

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Speaker 1: shorter side, so he chose to sleep in the baby crib.

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Speaker 1: Somebody wouldn't have to share a bed with.

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Speaker 3: He's got like, you know, some old, quite old companion,

377
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Speaker 3: I think, and because it's generally an older worker and

378
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Speaker 3: a younger worker. So there's a hierarchy in the ministry too,

379
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Speaker 3: and you've got the overseers, which are like the older

380
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Speaker 3: male there's one older male worker who's an overseer for

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Speaker 3: the regent, and then the next step in the hierarchy

382
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Speaker 3: is the the other older male workers. And then you've

383
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Speaker 3: got the younger male workers. And then you've got the

384
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Speaker 3: senior sister workers and then the junior sister workers. So

385
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Speaker 3: even if a if a male worker comes in day one,

386
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Speaker 3: he still has like authority over or you know, he's

387
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Speaker 3: higher in the hierarchy than the oldest sister worker who's

388
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Speaker 3: been there for sixty years. But yeah, so they generally

389
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Speaker 3: go in Paris, you have a senior worker and a

390
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Speaker 3: junior worker. So he was likely with some older guy.

391
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Speaker 3: I would choose the crypto.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm not sharing a twin bed with a hot

393
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Speaker 6: man that I'm in love with.

394
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Speaker 2: I would still sleep in that cryp.

395
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Speaker 5: Mike, can you tell us a little bit about your

396
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Speaker 5: childhood experiences in the religion.

397
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Speaker 1: Yeah, so when you talk about the two by Tea Cherch.

398
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Speaker 1: You always have to lead with what generation you were.

399
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Speaker 1: So I was fifth generation on my mom's side and

400
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Speaker 1: fourth on my dad's.

401
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 2: Wow.

402
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so my mom's family had come in contact with

403
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,359
Speaker 1: the workers in Alaska bright right around the turn of

404
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Speaker 1: the century. I don't know, it might have been sometime

405
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,919
Speaker 1: between like nineteen oh five and nineteen ten. Maybe the

406
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 1: workers had come over to the United States shortly before that,

407
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Speaker 1: and Alaska apparently was the place that they chose to

408
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 1: make a bee line too. And so yeah, a lot

409
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Speaker 1: of my family started there in the church, and so

410
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 1: that was kind of all that we knew for multiple generations.

411
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Speaker 1: I grew up in the Pacific Northwest, near Seattle, and

412
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Speaker 1: interestingly fairly close to where Abby was, you know, just

413
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Speaker 1: a few hours away. So we were together at a number

414
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Speaker 1: of church events, even though we didn't end up meeting

415
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Speaker 1: each other officially until we were adults.

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Speaker 6: I will say right here, like people might be like,

417
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Speaker 6: what's that you don't have a church? There are something

418
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Speaker 6: called conventions, which are yearly gatherings where everybody goes and

419
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,520
Speaker 6: basically camps for four days. Every state has one. You

420
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Speaker 6: have to ask permission to go to one. In a

421
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:17,480
Speaker 6: different state literally camping or yeah, some people are literally camping,

422
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,399
Speaker 6: and then there's storms and the situation in which you

423
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 6: are living was fun as a child, but you are

424
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,280
Speaker 6: really roughing it. And then there were also like kid

425
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:31,560
Speaker 6: get togethers. A family, usually one with a farm or something,

426
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,720
Speaker 6: would host a bunch of kids so that we could

427
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,120
Speaker 6: meet each other, presumably probably so we would date each

428
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,080
Speaker 6: other in that right, you know. Anyway, So I'm assuming

429
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,679
Speaker 6: that when you say like there were church events something

430
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 6: like that is where y'all were crossing paths.

431
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, conventions primarily. We actually have a picture of us

432
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 1: when we were kids, of like the big kids picture

433
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,240
Speaker 1: at the convention and there's like me on one side

434
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Speaker 1: and Abby on the other and we had no clue.

435
00:21:58,080 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 2: Who each other was.

436
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:00,159
Speaker 6: You.

437
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, I mean, it's cute.

438
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: It's cute.

439
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 2: Cute, it's cute. I wish it was in a different place,

440
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:09,159
Speaker 2: but it's cute. Yeah. What convention was that?

441
00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: That one was Olympia, Washington.

442
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,159
Speaker 2: I wonder if I ever crossed paths with y'all. I

443
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 2: did go to that one a few times.

444
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 5: My only convention I went to as a child was

445
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:21,240
Speaker 5: the Ventriloquis convention. So every time you say convention, that's

446
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 5: what she always WANs to bring up her room. She

447
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 5: just wanted to make sure you all remember that I

448
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 5: can do ventriloquism.

449
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 1: That explains why I'm having troubles seeing your lips.

450
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 6: So, so y'all meet romantically at some point.

451
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we met at a young kid to get

452
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: together in Oregon and how young? Well, so this would

453
00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 1: have been like for teenagers and early and like young adults. Okay,

454
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,640
Speaker 1: so I was probably twenty and Abby was eighteen.

455
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 6: Okay that sounds right, Abby, Yeah, I think so cool.

456
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,640
Speaker 6: And you guys were like, hey, what's up. Let's date.

457
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,439
Speaker 4: Well, it was like a it was it was a

458
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 4: skiing snowboarding get together, of which I did neither, but

459
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 4: you know, it was a chance.

460
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 3: I was in college and I kind of had my

461
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 3: my own a little bit of my own freedom and

462
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 3: so I could go anyway. And yeah, I mean Mike

463
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,360
Speaker 3: definitely did snowboard, and so he was there for the

464
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 3: actual reason and I was there to meet kids, meet guys,

465
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 3: let's be real, and yeah, I mean it's kind of funny.

466
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 3: I mean I I had eyes on him like immediately,

467
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:47,159
Speaker 3: but he kind of didn't wasn't super reciprocated.

468
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: He only had eyes for the slow.

469
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 3: He did put his arm around me, Oh yeah, he did.

470
00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 3: Like we were doing I was doing the crossword. He

471
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 3: helped me with the Crossford puzzle, and he put his

472
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,360
Speaker 3: arm around me the day we were leaving. But then

473
00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 3: he put his arm around some other girls to get.

474
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,120
Speaker 2: Together that night.

475
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 6: So come on, Mike, Yeah, I was two y two

476
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 6: version virgin virgin virsion version.

477
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: Like getting everyone pregnant. You were out there.

478
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 1: You're wild then, yeah, I mean putting my arm around

479
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: her that was first base.

480
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 3: Well, but I mean the other girl asked him to

481
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 3: have a Bible study in the back room, so that

482
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 3: whoa saucy he had to put his arm around her,

483
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 3: yoda to her.

484
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, wait, so how how much did you each believe?

485
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 5: I have a couple of questions, like how fervently were

486
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 5: you believers in the church at that time?

487
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 3: It's a really good question.

488
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: It is a really good question, and I feel like,

489
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: at least for me, I was If you would have

490
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: asked me, I would have said that I was a

491
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: true believer and you know, all the things. But in retrospect,

492
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: I was a really good rule follower, and so I

493
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 1: was following all the rules. But you know, as we'll

494
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: get to probably in a little bit, when it came

495
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: to shedding our faith and having a faith crisis, there

496
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: wasn't really that much belief really behind it. It was

497
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: it was a pretty surface level church attendance and participation

498
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 1: kind of belief. And I was not convinced that, you know,

499
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,719
Speaker 1: I was. I don't know, it's really hard to get

500
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: into my mind from that time.

501
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 3: Period, but interesting, yeah, I think so we people in

502
00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,919
Speaker 3: the two I twos are the Truth. I like to

503
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 3: use the Truth still sometimes because that is the name

504
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 3: that they typically use and it's very culty, and I

505
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 3: don't necessarily want to always give them the out for

506
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 3: having a normal name, So sometimes I use the Truth.

507
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 3: But people in the Truth are raised and taught to

508
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 3: basically believe in the church itself. And so in my opinion,

509
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 3: that is the vast majority of the faith that we

510
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 3: had was faith in this in the group, and so

511
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 3: our faith in the actual like religious side of it

512
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 3: was very thin, I think, and so that didn't take

513
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 3: much to break. And once you break that, we actually

514
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 3: still thought that the group was still the safest place

515
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 3: to raise our kids. We had this discussion, like our

516
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 3: faith in the group kind of maintained for a bit

517
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 3: after our faith in the religion in general snapped. And

518
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 3: I think that's what it was like. We felt like

519
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 3: we were very devout, but our devoutness was tied to

520
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 3: the church and not to actual religious.

521
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 5: Beliefs, almost more like just the rituals and the community

522
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 5: and structure.

523
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're taught that it's the safe place and

524
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 3: the world is the dangerous place. You're taught this distinction

525
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 3: so much that you can't like that is what the

526
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 3: strongest faith in your head is that this group is

527
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 3: the safest, the best. It's it's a twisted sort of faith.

528
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 6: And when it goes right, it feels that way for real,

529
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 6: like wholesome whole time. Yeah, but you know there's a twists,

530
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 6: as there always is in a cult. So I just

531
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 6: want to put that out there.

532
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 3: It's very Norman Rockwell, very and there's a twist there too,

533
00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 3: like his the Norman Rockwell painting. All those things look

534
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 3: very wholesome, and it turns out there's a different side

535
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 3: of Norman Rockwell himself.

536
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 2: But have we talked about this, No, But say a

537
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 2: little more.

538
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 3: There's another podcast. I think Behind the Bastards did a

539
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 3: podcast about Norman Rockwell, Oh Doucy, So yeah, the parallel

540
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:35,920
Speaker 3: is good. Abby.

541
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 5: Can you explain, like, if women are to wear long

542
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 5: dresses and presumably have children and you know, be mothers

543
00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,880
Speaker 5: in their roles, how did you end up in college?

544
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: Was that typical? What were you studying?

545
00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's fairly typical. I don't know, it's it's not.

546
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 3: It's kind of strange because I think it's fairly typical

547
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 3: for women to start college and then I I think

548
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 3: it's also typical for them to maybe finish two years,

549
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 3: maybe four years. It's not very typical for them to

550
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 3: go beyond that. And I ended up not finishing. I

551
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 3: think I finished two years, but I didn't get a

552
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 3: degree because that's not where I was going. It was

553
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 3: not for a two year degree, and I went in

554
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 3: in a very approved direction, which was early childhood education.

555
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 3: So the nurturing roles are much more approved directions for

556
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: higher education. But I don't know very many women who

557
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 3: pursued anything past the four years. It's almost kind of

558
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 3: this like obligatory to society type of thing, like we're

559
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 3: not going to tell people not to get well, that's

560
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 3: that's not true. A lot of times they did tell

561
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: women not to go to college, not to get higher education.

562
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: But at least in our area, it was common.

563
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 5: To get some interesting but you wouldn't typically see like

564
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 5: a woman doctor or what not. Usually yeah, okay, interesting,

565
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 5: maybe a massage therapist.

566
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,719
Speaker 2: Yeah is shorter. How long is nurse school? I don't know,

567
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:03,960
Speaker 2: but I should.

568
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 5: You should, but that is also a caregiving Yeah, so

569
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 5: that kind of improved.

570
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mike, did you go to college?

571
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: I went to a two year college and yeah, I

572
00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: got like a technical degree, but that's about it. In

573
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: my family, nobody else really had gone to college, and

574
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: so I just kind of went along with what everybody

575
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: else was doing, which was, you know, getting into the

576
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: workforce pretty early. It turned out okay for me, thankfully.

577
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 2: That's good.

578
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 5: I'm always interested in the level of isolation in a

579
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 5: group that is interacting with the world quite a bit,

580
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 5: Like did you guys have friends outside of the church

581
00:29:43,880 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 5: or it was just kind of like you'd see him

582
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 5: in class and then you'd go back to your church people.

583
00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: Right, So our area had a lot of kids in

584
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: the two by two church, and so that kept me

585
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: from having a need to go outside of the church

586
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: for many friends. You know, in school, I had friends,

587
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 1: but I pretty much would never see them outside of school.

588
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 1: It wasn't like explicitly said, like, oh, you can't have

589
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: friends in school, but it was definitely an implicit kind

590
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: of rule. So I didn't hang out with people outside

591
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 1: of school. It's a really strange way to grow up.

592
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 1: Like I have really good friends in high school, and

593
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: yet they never came to my house and I never

594
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: went to their house. Wow, which is super bizarre in hindsight,

595
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: But at the time I was just like, well, they're

596
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: just a little bit different than me. They're not a

597
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 1: part of the you know, the accepted one true way,

598
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: and so you know, again, it wasn't explicitly said, but

599
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:45,719
Speaker 1: it was definitely the vibe was all those people are

600
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: going to hell, so you really shouldn't spend too much

601
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: time with them.

602
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: Don't get too attached. Was that true of you too,

603
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 2: Like did you go to friends houses?

604
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 6: I'm actually writing something about this right now because my

605
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 6: mom had a baby when I was ten, and so

606
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 6: they were over me. I had to attend to a baby,

607
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 6: So I got really lucky because there was one girl

608
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 6: in school, Vivian Ritchie, who was like, come over and

609
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 6: I was like, Okay, my parents are actually letting me

610
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 6: do this.

611
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 2: And it changed.

612
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 6: The course of my life because my parents were like,

613
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 6: please get away from us.

614
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 2: It was Vivian Ritchie. It was Vivian Ritchie. I loved

615
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: that name. I know, she's she's so cool. HI have

616
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 2: a van I love you.

617
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, But like I got lucky in that, and that

618
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 6: what am I looking for in that way? Because I

619
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 6: don't I don't know if I would have been allowed

620
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 6: to do those sorts of things if my parents hadn't

621
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 6: been very overloaded with other other stuff. And I did

622
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 6: feel a sense of like, you guys are so different,

623
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 6: and was that the same.

624
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 2: For you Abby?

625
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

626
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 3: So when Mike says that we had a lot of

627
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 3: kids in our area, he means that he he did

628
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 3: despite only being a couple hours away from each other.

629
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,680
Speaker 3: Where I was, had no kids. There was literally nobody

630
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 3: five years younger or older than me in that whole range.

631
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 3: So my parents did kind of have to let me

632
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: have friends. And I did a lot of activities. So

633
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:12,760
Speaker 3: I did a lot of sports, I did a lot

634
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 3: of music, and so I did know a lot of people,

635
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: a lot of kids, and I made some friendships. There

636
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 3: was always a bit of a separation, but thankfully my

637
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 3: parents didn't decide that I just had to be isolated completely,

638
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: and they did kind of embrace some of my friends

639
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 3: a bit, like they'd kind of come over here and there,

640
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 3: and I could sometimes go over to their house. But

641
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 3: I was always different. I mean, I had hair down

642
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 3: to my butt, and I had you know, dresses, and

643
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 3: I was I was always a little bit better right,

644
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 3: like in my mind, which is embarrassing, but like, I

645
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 3: don't blame myself either, So yeah, I mean I got

646
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 3: to have more outside friends, but there was definitely a

647
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 3: like it was kind of an arms reach type of thing,

648
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 3: you know, you kept kept them at a distance a

649
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 3: little bit, right. I wasn't allowed to like hug my

650
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 3: friends or call them my best friends because my best

651
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 3: friend was god right and so like I was, I

652
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 3: was explicitly kept at a distance from having like loving

653
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: friend relationships.

654
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 6: It's so complicated to explain to people how much a

655
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 6: part of the world we were and how much a

656
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 6: part of it they kept us. At the same time.

657
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 6: I think it's very unusual and it's easy to be like.

658
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 6: It sounds like kind of just like a normal offshoot group,

659
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 6: but mentally you are in a prison that is so crazy.

660
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 6: And the reason I think they're able to keep you

661
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 6: in that is that the whole doctrine is just fear.

662
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, that's my opinion.

663
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's actually something called mutual rejection that you probably

664
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 3: are very familiar with this, but one of the ways

665
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: that they keep hiking groups so insular without having compound

666
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 3: walls is by everyone experiencing rejection mutually. So they're all

667
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 3: wearing dresses, they all have long hair, they all are

668
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 3: very matro inly as children, they all, you know, can't

669
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,360
Speaker 3: go to practices on Wednesday nights. They all have those things.

670
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 3: They go out into the world and they feel rejected

671
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 3: by the world, and so then they all come together

672
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 3: and they share this mutual rejection that bonds them. And

673
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 3: so even if you don't have walls, you can keep

674
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 3: a group together by helping them to experience mutual rejection

675
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 3: and othering the outside and it just keeps this tight bond.

676
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: We've not talked about that ever. That's very interesting. Yeah,

677
00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 2: makes sense.

678
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's also something that Jehovah's witness experience

679
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: a lot, because let's be real, who's joining the jdubs

680
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: because somebody knocked on their door? And so they get

681
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: rejected at every single door that they go to. And

682
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: then they come back to their church and they're like,

683
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: you know, I don't, I don't, I don't know what

684
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 1: they do.

685
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: At least we have.

686
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 3: Each other, but they can bond over it.

687
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's easy to frame it as this is

688
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 6: the persecution that the Bible was talking about.

689
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. It's such a I love it. I love

690
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 5: a persecution narrative, so classic. Yeah, yeah, how did you

691
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 5: go from the arm around Abby and another girl to

692
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 5: getting married?

693
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: Let's see, after after that, we we just kept in contact.

694
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 2: And writing letters I assume.

695
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we had bumped up to text messaging, but

696
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: you know it was t nine word back in the day.

697
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: And so yeah, about a month later I made the

698
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: trip over to where Abby was going to school, which

699
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 1: was about five hours away. You know, our first year

700
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: and a half of our relationship was a long distant relationship.

701
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,839
Speaker 1: And yeah, we we developed a relationship. You know, we

702
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 1: at a time I suppose, uh, going to kids get togethers,

703
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: going you know, conventions, was another place that we could

704
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: see each other and hang out. Yeah, I don't know.

705
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think is there anything else in there

706
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: that I'm missing? It? It kind of seems like a whirlwind.

707
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 3: You know.

708
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,759
Speaker 1: We dated for a year before we got engaged, and

709
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: then and then another six months before we got married,

710
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: and you know, again we were we got married at

711
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: twenty one and nineteen, which is very very common in

712
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: that church, and it's really you know, it's common because

713
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 1: you're not allowed to live with anybody before you get married,

714
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: and you're not allowed to have sex with them before

715
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: we get married, right, and so what does a twenty

716
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: one and nineteen year old do?

717
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,680
Speaker 3: They do things that will allow them to Yeah, we

718
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 3: also liked each other.

719
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: We did that too.

720
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, we also did like each other.

721
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 6: No, obviously, I know it's you guys have a great synergy.

722
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 6: And that's so lucky, you know that, because sometimes people it.

723
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: Does not always s turn out that way.

724
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 4: Yeah.

725
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I want to know a bit about how you

726
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 5: both came to question and this was something that was

727
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:14,839
Speaker 5: really interesting to talk to Kyle and carry about as well,

728
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 5: Like as a couple, were you able to talk about

729
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 5: any doubts that you were having or did you kind

730
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 5: of were you worried that the other person might not

731
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 5: be having them?

732
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: How did that work?

733
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 3: I don't know how it worked. And we call it

734
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,400
Speaker 3: our little miracle, very sarcastically, but yeah, I mean, and

735
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 3: we've kind of told this. You probably have heard the story.

736
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: How like one night one of us just asked, and

737
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 3: we don't remember who, like, hey, would you pray? Do

738
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: you actually hear something back? Do you actually get a response?

739
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 3: And the other person was like, well no, And then

740
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 3: we just I don't really remember our discussion past that,

741
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 3: but we just tried really hard for a while, Like

742
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 3: I just prayed really hard, and then I waited and

743
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 3: I waited and I did all the things because I

744
00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 3: didn't want to, Like it's scary right to lose your faith,

745
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 3: but it just seemed like instead of losing our faith,

746
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: it seemed like one night we realized we never.

747
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:09,720
Speaker 2: Had it right.

748
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: And yes, people inside or they have argued, well, maybe

749
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 3: you never had it, but like I believed in the group,

750
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 3: and that's what they do too. Like in reality, a

751
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 3: lot of these people that are struggling right now are

752
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: struggling because they believe in the group, and the group

753
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 3: has been shown to be unhealthy, and it's not necessarily yeah,

754
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,200
Speaker 3: because that's what their faith is in. And so anyway,

755
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 3: we kind of realized that our faith was based on

756
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,720
Speaker 3: our raising and our conditioning and not really based in

757
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 3: individual circumstances, you know, And so we both were in

758
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 3: agreement there. I don't know what the heck the first

759
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: person to say that was thinking, you know, that seems

760
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 3: like a big thing to just drop on your partner

761
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 3: when you hadn't ever talked about it before.

762
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 1: That's the thing that that a lot of kind of

763
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: emphasize is that we up until that point, which was

764
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 1: like two months into our marriage, we had never talked

765
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: about anything that would be questioning our faith or even

766
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 1: just about it in general. Like it was just an

767
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: unspoken thing like, oh, yeah, we're just going to do

768
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: this for the rest of our lives. And if you

769
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: would have asked me a week before we had that

770
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 1: conversation if I was going to be in it for

771
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 1: the rest of my life, I would have said one

772
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 1: hundred percent. Wow.

773
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 3: All it took was a question, because once you know

774
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:35,240
Speaker 3: all the things about the church, your faith is complete, right,

775
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,399
Speaker 3: Like you don't have to discuss your faith in the church,

776
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 3: and I believe that's what almost everyone's faith is in

777
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 3: and you don't have to discuss it, you don't have

778
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 3: to pick it apart. You just have to attend. You

779
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 3: have to do the rituals, and then you know, you

780
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 3: have to deny the rest of the world and then

781
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,120
Speaker 3: your set. So what is there to really talk about?

782
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 3: And because people don't talk about it, there are a

783
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: lot of differing actual spiritual beliefs, but they don't really

784
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 3: address them. So maybe in vague sermons, but they don't

785
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,879
Speaker 3: want to talk about it because that might make them

786
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:05,479
Speaker 3: have to.

787
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 2: Think about it and talk about it.

788
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, it's no written doctrine, no, like like nobody

789
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 6: even knows what the other person believes.

790
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,880
Speaker 2: Really, wow, we have no idea what each other are

791
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 2: talking about. They're like there's still small voice of speaking

792
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 2: to me.

793
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 6: And then like, yeah, I always let somebody had a

794
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,920
Speaker 6: voice in their head like telling them shit. Uh, some

795
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 6: people think they do, some people think that they do.

796
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 6: Yeah right, yeah, yeah.

797
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,920
Speaker 5: Do any of you have examples of like realizing somebody

798
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 5: believe something completely different from you?

799
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:36,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean.

800
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean so dinosaurs are ironically a really big,

801
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:45,280
Speaker 1: hot top divisive topic.

802
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 6: Yea.

803
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: Some people think the bones were put there mysteriously by God.

804
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 1: Some people think that dinosaurs were actually real. They're within

805
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 1: the two by two church. There is I don't know how,

806
00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: I don't know what the percentages look like, but there's

807
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: definitely people that believe in young Earth that's six thousand

808
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: years old. There's definitely people that believe in an old

809
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 1: Earth and everything in between. So like, for the most part,

810
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: at least from the from the workers and the leadership,

811
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 1: they believe that, you know, Adam and Eve were the

812
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: first humans, and there is Noah's Ark and all of

813
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: humanity got wiped out. But then if you were to

814
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: dig in, like member by member, their belief in the

815
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: those things being the actual events very all over the

816
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: board because they don't talk about it.

817
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's talked about in church nothing.

818
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, So actually I believe that that is one of

819
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: the biggest simultaneously, the biggest failing of the church as

820
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 3: a church, and the thing that keeps the church able

821
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 3: to continue is that everything is vague and everything is

822
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:59,200
Speaker 3: a spiritualization of something. Nothing is straightforward. So when they

823
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,439
Speaker 3: say things, they have plausible deniability of what they meant.

824
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 3: And when they say things. It's kind of I related

825
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 3: a little bit to tarot cards, where you know, like

826
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 3: you see what you want to see in tarot cards, right,

827
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 3: Like so if you see a card and you apply

828
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 3: it to your life in the way that you want

829
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: or need to think about it, right and can be

830
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 3: a really good meditation tool. And I believe that that

831
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 3: is what's happening with their sermons essentially just tarot cards.

832
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 3: It's like they will say something and different people in

833
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:29,960
Speaker 3: the meeting will get different meanings out of it, and

834
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 3: they say that that is proof of the spirit, when

835
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,759
Speaker 3: actually it's just because they took a story about a

836
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 3: cat and they turned it into a spiritual story that

837
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 3: didn't actually say.

838
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: Anything, which is like how artworks.

839
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 5: I guess, like we take from it what we need

840
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 5: to take from it. But typically in a religion people

841
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,800
Speaker 5: would be on the same page about what they believe in.

842
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 2: That would just generally there's no pay.

843
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 3: I was taught that, like my upbringing was Young Earth

844
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 3: and the dinosaur bones were put there either by God

845
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,439
Speaker 3: to confuse us or by I don't know why God

846
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 3: would do that. That seems pretty shady to me. You know,

847
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 3: either it was either God or Satan. And if you

848
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 3: can attribute an act to either God or Satan, you

849
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 3: can't tell. That's kind of a red flag, right. Yeah,

850
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 3: So I think that the reason that they like it

851
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 3: doesn't bother them that people believe other things like religiously,

852
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,759
Speaker 3: is because they don't have faith in their religion. They

853
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 3: have faith in the church. So as long as the

854
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 3: people don't wear pants, and as long as long as

855
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,359
Speaker 3: they don't disagree on dress code, as long as they

856
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: don't disagree that the world is scary, as long as

857
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 3: they don't disagree that they should mean in homes, they

858
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 3: don't care what else they disagree with, not really, as

859
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: long as it doesn't affect their traditions. As soon as

860
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 3: it affects and their traditions, then they have a different

861
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 3: religion than each other.

862
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 2: That's super super interesting. Yeah.

863
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 5: In Mormonism, for all its flaws, at least we all

864
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 5: kind of were like, we know what we believe. It's

865
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 5: very in fact, it's very specific. There are three tiers,

866
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,640
Speaker 5: three tiers of heaven and the three tiers of the

867
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,359
Speaker 5: top tier of heaven, and there are very specific things

868
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 5: you do to get into those tiers.

869
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 6: And it's always worth reminding myself and listeners and whoever

870
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 6: else might.

871
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 2: Get Abby may be really.

872
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,200
Speaker 6: With us relate to this, like I love that Mormonism

873
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 6: has heaven and three cheers of heaven. I don't think

874
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 6: any of us thought we were going to heaven. I

875
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 6: did not feel that sense at all. I was destined

876
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 6: for hell, and everyone around me also seemed to feel

877
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 6: the same way. Was that your experience or did you

878
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 6: feel quote unquote saved.

879
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 1: I never felt safe, that's for sure. I didn't also

880
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: didn't feel like I was going to hell, but the

881
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: possibility was definitely always lingering out there.

882
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what keeps the fear in people. Once you

883
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 3: feel safe, you might start questioning, like why you have

884
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 3: to do all of this? So make sure that you

885
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 3: feel extra unsafe outside of the group. But inside of

886
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 3: the group, you still can never really breathe, like you

887
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 3: still can't quite get comfortable. It's just constant uncertainty.

888
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 6: This concludes Part one of our conversation with Mike and Abby.

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00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,319
Speaker 6: Please come back and join us next week for part two,

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00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,359
Speaker 6: where we'll discuss the allegations of child sexual abuse within

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00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 6: the two by two church and the ongoing FBI investigation. Lola.

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00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 6: This is the part where you usually asked me if

893
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 6: I would join a group. Obviously, I've already left this group,

894
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 6: so there's not too much left to be uncovered here.

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00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 6: It's true, But thank you so much for listening. Guys,

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00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 6: we love spending another week with you. Come again and

897
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 6: listen next week, and as always, remember to follow your guts,

898
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:45,760
Speaker 6: watch out for red flags.

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00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me.

900
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 3: Bye.

901
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 5: This has been an exactly right production hosted by.

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00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 6: Me Lola Blanc and Me Megan Elizabeth. Our senior producer

903
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 6: is Gee Holly. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

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00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 6: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain, and our guest booker

905
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:05,160
Speaker 6: is Patrick Kottner.

906
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 5: Our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

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00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 6: Trust Me as executive produced by Karen Kilgarreth, Georgia Hardstark

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00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 6: and Danielle Kramer.

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00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 5: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me podcast

910
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 5: or on TikTok at trust Me coult podcast.

911
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 6: Got your own story about cults, extreme belief, our manipulation,

912
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 6: Shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 5: Listen to trust Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 5: or wherever you get your podcasts.