1
00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:10,880
Speaker 1: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

2
00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:14,480
Speaker 1: jessicasaveetto executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for the

3
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:18,200
Speaker 1: Devil the Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series explored

4
00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,400
Speaker 1: the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakaina Church

5
00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:25,200
Speaker 1: and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakaina Church over two

6
00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,520
Speaker 1: decades ago before establishing Seven M Films and is named

7
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,400
Speaker 1: in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

8
00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,360
Speaker 2: And I'm Clia Gray, former member of Chicina Church and

9
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 2: Seven M Films.

10
00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,680
Speaker 1: In cults and high control groups with a focal leader

11
00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,000
Speaker 1: at the forefront, language plays an important role in finding

12
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,280
Speaker 1: and keeping members linked to the group and further isolating

13
00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:48,760
Speaker 1: and bonding them. So today we're going to break down

14
00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,279
Speaker 1: a little bit of how a leader finds themselves at

15
00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 1: the top or in our case, in front of a pulpit.

16
00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 3: So let's get into it.

17
00:00:57,680 --> 00:00:58,319
Speaker 4: Let's do it.

18
00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,479
Speaker 2: I'm really excited to get into this episode today. Thank

19
00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,880
Speaker 2: you for bringing up the topic because it is very

20
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:08,560
Speaker 2: important the language.

21
00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 4: That we use, how we use it, the power.

22
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,120
Speaker 2: Of a voice and the importance of a voice, and

23
00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:16,120
Speaker 2: when it can be used for good versus for not

24
00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:17,720
Speaker 2: so good or downright evil.

25
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,840
Speaker 1: Absolutely, there was something you said a couple episodes ago

26
00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,080
Speaker 1: that I wrote down that I found to be like

27
00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,679
Speaker 1: really really powerful. You said saying the quiet parts out loud,

28
00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 1: and it just had me really thinking about like the

29
00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,320
Speaker 1: power of your voice. And you can choose to stay

30
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:38,160
Speaker 1: silent in situations or you can speak up. And as

31
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,559
Speaker 1: we talk about high controlled groups, cults, politics, like where

32
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:44,760
Speaker 1: we're at, like standing up for what we believe in,

33
00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 1: just really stuck with me of like remembering to say

34
00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:51,800
Speaker 1: the quiet parts out loud because it's easy to stay silent.

35
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:57,320
Speaker 1: But let's dive in. Okay, loaded language. So loaded language

36
00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,960
Speaker 1: is described as words and phrases that are use repeatedly

37
00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:05,400
Speaker 1: and eventually develop a deep emotional association for the listeners.

38
00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,279
Speaker 1: So these words and phrases end up invoking specific emotions

39
00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 1: when stating, ultimately influencing and persuading the listeners. So, for example,

40
00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:19,800
Speaker 1: we've heard this one a lot lately from Trump fake news.

41
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,480
Speaker 1: We hear it over and over and over again, how

42
00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,519
Speaker 1: this is fake news? The witch hunt DEI. It's these

43
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:30,720
Speaker 1: words that we're constantly hearing and then again other examples

44
00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,680
Speaker 1: that we've heard quite often, especially on this podcast, and

45
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: if you've been following people like Robert Shin dying to yourself,

46
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:44,920
Speaker 1: sacred Truth, Man of God, just repeating these words, invoking

47
00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:45,760
Speaker 1: these emotions.

48
00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, once it gets used so much. Now the emotion

49
00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:50,959
Speaker 2: is attached to the word. So now whenever the word

50
00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,400
Speaker 2: gets brought up, you're brought right back to where whenever

51
00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:56,960
Speaker 2: it's brought up, what the emotional landscape is.

52
00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:58,200
Speaker 4: Now it's attached to that.

53
00:02:58,280 --> 00:02:59,799
Speaker 2: So I think I really do like the example of

54
00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,240
Speaker 2: news because especially where we're at now, from hearing it

55
00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,119
Speaker 2: from like the first campaign into like now where it's

56
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,600
Speaker 2: still like can be used to just be like that's

57
00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,680
Speaker 2: fake news, and everyone gets however you feel about it,

58
00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,520
Speaker 2: that it's gonna evoke that emotion of either you're like, yes,

59
00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,560
Speaker 2: that is fake news, you're like, oh my gosh, here

60
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,800
Speaker 2: we go like And so I definitely can relate to that.

61
00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:22,680
Speaker 2: And we talk about all the time dying to yourself

62
00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:25,280
Speaker 2: because it was said so many times in Chicina and

63
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,240
Speaker 2: on the pulpit that it's like it became this phrase

64
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,720
Speaker 2: of like almost like justification of everything that you're doing.

65
00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,400
Speaker 2: It's like you're doing it because you're taking up your cross.

66
00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: You're dying to yourself. You are embodying Jesus by doing

67
00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,640
Speaker 2: all of these things. That was the emotion I feel

68
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,360
Speaker 2: like was associated to that phrase. And so now it's

69
00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 2: like you having this phrase to justify things that were

70
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,160
Speaker 2: not so good, things that like shouldn't have been happening,

71
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,400
Speaker 2: people shouldn't have been doing.

72
00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:52,640
Speaker 4: Cutting yourself off from family.

73
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,680
Speaker 2: I think that was another big one, like you got

74
00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:57,240
Speaker 2: to cut it out, like cut your family, cut your life.

75
00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,800
Speaker 2: Like being made new, you're a brand new person in Christ.

76
00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,760
Speaker 2: I think that was also another one that was you're

77
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:05,800
Speaker 2: a new person. I think we talked about it with

78
00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,440
Speaker 2: Ko and Miranda or are they saying like, look at

79
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 2: us before, but now we're new. Yeah, we're new in Christ.

80
00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 2: So that loaded language. I can see why, like leaders

81
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:17,799
Speaker 2: can utilize that in their.

82
00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:21,279
Speaker 1: Tool beily and tapping into that deep emotional association. So

83
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,320
Speaker 1: as you were saying, with fake news, it's like we've.

84
00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:24,720
Speaker 3: All been there.

85
00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,760
Speaker 1: We've all been like is that actually valid? Or you

86
00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:28,400
Speaker 1: read something and then all of a sudden you do

87
00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,920
Speaker 1: some research and you realize like, wait, that's not actually true.

88
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,840
Speaker 1: So we all like can have like we can relate

89
00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,400
Speaker 1: to experiencing that. So when you hear that word, you're

90
00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:42,000
Speaker 1: constantly then questioning an entire media outlet. You're completely like

91
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,800
Speaker 1: you want to question everything now, but obviously using that

92
00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,360
Speaker 1: to manipulate people and manipulate the conversation. Is that obviously

93
00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,120
Speaker 1: that's gone into an extreme right, same thing with dying

94
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:54,560
Speaker 1: to yourself and what you were just saying, like it's

95
00:04:54,640 --> 00:05:00,040
Speaker 1: this new me. It's taking that deep emotional connection to

96
00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 1: something and then manipulating it to kind of spin this

97
00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:05,640
Speaker 1: narrative of what they're trying to do in order to

98
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 1: gain the control. So very loaded and deep, So going

99
00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,920
Speaker 1: into the emotional association of it all. Now obviously you've

100
00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,359
Speaker 1: been removed from it. But can you remember when you

101
00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:19,279
Speaker 1: were just hearing about dying to yourself and what that

102
00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:19,800
Speaker 1: felt like.

103
00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,760
Speaker 2: You know, when you are like giving something your all,

104
00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:25,159
Speaker 2: like you're putting everything into something because you want it

105
00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,120
Speaker 2: to work out a certain way. So I think when

106
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,320
Speaker 2: I would hear dying to myself, it's like, Okay, this

107
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,840
Speaker 2: was me dedicating my life to Christ, Like this was

108
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 2: my feeling.

109
00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:33,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm dying to myself.

110
00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:37,240
Speaker 2: I am following the blueprint of Jesus and dying to

111
00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,680
Speaker 2: myself and putting everything in this basket. So I think

112
00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,200
Speaker 2: that was the emotional response back then when I heard

113
00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:45,159
Speaker 2: that phrase that it would be like, yes, I do

114
00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:46,919
Speaker 2: want to be a new person. I do want to

115
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:48,720
Speaker 2: die to my old self because I didn't like who

116
00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:52,039
Speaker 2: I was. So I think that was the emotional response then,

117
00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,360
Speaker 2: and then now when I hear it because of like

118
00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:56,760
Speaker 2: everything that's happened, and I hear die to yourself, it's

119
00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,479
Speaker 2: like ooh, like you were saying, it's like that that

120
00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 2: trying to justify the things through that.

121
00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,120
Speaker 1: Everyone can relate to that that we've all been into

122
00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,400
Speaker 1: a situation. You start a new job, you'd get a

123
00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,479
Speaker 1: new hobby, like you really want to invest all of

124
00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,080
Speaker 1: your time and energy into that, and so holding on

125
00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,000
Speaker 1: to words like that in the language that's being used,

126
00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:19,599
Speaker 1: it makes sense. It makes sense within your life and

127
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,479
Speaker 1: what your journey is at that time. So not here

128
00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,000
Speaker 1: for people tapping into certain things and then utilizing it

129
00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 1: for their own personal gain and manipulating people. So yeah,

130
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,400
Speaker 1: going into terminating cliches. So basically this is the use

131
00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:38,560
Speaker 1: of cliches to stop an argument or any questioning from

132
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,440
Speaker 1: preceding any further. You are shaking your head. I feel

133
00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,400
Speaker 1: like if there's something that's we've tapped into here, instead

134
00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,360
Speaker 1: of ending a discussion with a point, the leader leans

135
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,599
Speaker 1: on a cliche like it is what it is, do

136
00:06:51,720 --> 00:06:52,480
Speaker 1: your research.

137
00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:54,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think I had mentioned it earlier, but

138
00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 2: like God's will that really was now that I think

139
00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,360
Speaker 2: about it, more like that actually was used to like

140
00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,280
Speaker 2: if it's God's will, it'll happen. So I think even

141
00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,480
Speaker 2: spending time with children back when we were part of Chicina,

142
00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 2: like if it's God's will, like you'll see your children,

143
00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:10,720
Speaker 2: like something will happen and it'll be done. And so

144
00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:14,880
Speaker 2: it's like just that ending the conversation without any reason

145
00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,000
Speaker 2: rhyme or reason, but just like using a terminating.

146
00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,600
Speaker 4: Cliche that yeah, that was the phrase.

147
00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,080
Speaker 2: And it's hard because it's like it doesn't really open

148
00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:24,480
Speaker 2: up for a discussion or conversation when we're talking about

149
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:26,480
Speaker 2: like leaders in general. Like I think when that you

150
00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,120
Speaker 2: said just do your research, how that is being used

151
00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,360
Speaker 2: today of like, well do your research. I'm not going

152
00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:33,680
Speaker 2: to do it for you, Like you're not making a point,

153
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:35,720
Speaker 2: You're just saying something to just be like, oh, well

154
00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:37,120
Speaker 2: we're going to leave it there now.

155
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:40,800
Speaker 1: Absolutely and it's our responsibility. I mean, even with this podcast,

156
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,240
Speaker 1: we've had these discussions, it's our responsibility to do more research,

157
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:48,400
Speaker 1: but actually do the research, not leaving it for interpretation.

158
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:52,360
Speaker 1: I mean, we have looked into different groups that we

159
00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,800
Speaker 1: ended up not really moving forward with because there wasn't

160
00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 1: enough evidence against it. And if we're going to be

161
00:07:58,200 --> 00:07:59,960
Speaker 1: utilizing our voices, we want to make sure that we

162
00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:04,239
Speaker 1: being mindful of doing proper due diligence and looking into

163
00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,920
Speaker 1: things further and not just leaning on it is what

164
00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,320
Speaker 1: it is. And obviously that's a little bit different. But yes,

165
00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:13,680
Speaker 1: the terminating cliches to me, I find to be very

166
00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:16,280
Speaker 1: interesting because it's utilized in you know what we've been

167
00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:21,760
Speaker 1: hearing with Chicaina, It's utilized in politics and across the board.

168
00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,440
Speaker 4: This is forgive me for I have followed. We'll be

169
00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:26,040
Speaker 4: right back.

170
00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:35,000
Speaker 1: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Now

171
00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:42,800
Speaker 1: back to our conversation. So other jargon is also used

172
00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,200
Speaker 1: to create a sense of belonging and control, almost like

173
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,040
Speaker 1: a secret language only folks on the inside are aware

174
00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 1: of it. In one study, it showed jargon can also

175
00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,800
Speaker 1: operate as a way to advertise oneself as someone of

176
00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,640
Speaker 1: a higher status or intelligence, giving the leader and its

177
00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 1: followers a sense of superiority. Examples mentors God's army, but

178
00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:09,079
Speaker 1: soldiers for soldiers.

179
00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:10,959
Speaker 2: No, I know, we had definitely used that a lot

180
00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:12,760
Speaker 2: and shook kind of saying like we are part of

181
00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,880
Speaker 2: God's army. We are part of this very like super

182
00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,720
Speaker 2: important sect of people within Christianity that not everybody else

183
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,360
Speaker 2: is a part of. And it's interesting because when we

184
00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:25,360
Speaker 2: when I also hear the word jargon, I think about

185
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,000
Speaker 2: like our military and like a lot of like terms

186
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,520
Speaker 2: that like us civilians don't necessarily use, but it does

187
00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,839
Speaker 2: set them apart of like we are military and your civilians.

188
00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,560
Speaker 2: So that separation, Yeah, I hear it there too, and

189
00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,760
Speaker 2: like showing your status. I'm like, oh, I'm using these

190
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,719
Speaker 2: words that we all know, but oh, for you civilians

191
00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:44,360
Speaker 2: it means this.

192
00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,439
Speaker 1: I just watched over the weekend Devil in the Family,

193
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:53,080
Speaker 1: the Fall of Ruby Frankie, and that was also like

194
00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,800
Speaker 1: utilizing jargon a lot, speaking to an audience to spread

195
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,080
Speaker 1: the word of God or to spread some sort of

196
00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,320
Speaker 1: messaging with the understanding that you're trying to also bring

197
00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 1: them into something else.

198
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:07,880
Speaker 3: Very interesting. Highly recommend it.

199
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:09,959
Speaker 4: I started it, but I.

200
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,720
Speaker 2: Have not finished it, so I'm really interested to continue

201
00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:16,040
Speaker 2: to watch it to see the parallels because already from

202
00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:20,080
Speaker 2: the beginning watching the first episode, I was like, wow, we.

203
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,120
Speaker 4: Talk about how it's almost like there's a handbook out.

204
00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,080
Speaker 2: But people utilize some of these tactics that we're even

205
00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,360
Speaker 2: discussing now, in how they speak and using their voice

206
00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 2: and the tools that they use to gather people into

207
00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,520
Speaker 2: their whatever it may be, their group.

208
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 1: Absolutely also going into the whole us versus them instead

209
00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,360
Speaker 1: of you, so you is widely used in general religious practices,

210
00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,360
Speaker 1: but cults tend to use the language of us versus

211
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,520
Speaker 1: them to further emphasize that people outside of the group

212
00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,960
Speaker 1: aren't on our level, which you kind of mentioned a

213
00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,800
Speaker 1: little bit. Followers feel they must protect and support the

214
00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,480
Speaker 1: group while fearing outsides and not trusting any outside noise. Yes,

215
00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,680
Speaker 1: but yeah, we're extreme Christians and we're not lukewarm.

216
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,839
Speaker 2: That was a big one in Chicina, like, we are

217
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:12,520
Speaker 2: not lukewarm Christians, we are real Christians. We are the

218
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:15,040
Speaker 2: extremists because those are the people who get to enter

219
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,560
Speaker 2: the kingdom. That was, you know, something that was said

220
00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,400
Speaker 2: often and I think the Chkaina also weighed really heavy

221
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,880
Speaker 2: into the US versus them, so even especially like the

222
00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,240
Speaker 2: whole time, but especially towards the end of like the

223
00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:31,040
Speaker 2: other people are demon possessed and while they not might

224
00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 2: not necessarily say demon possessed, but I think a big

225
00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:36,400
Speaker 2: teaching point in Chicina was that there's like these unseen

226
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,080
Speaker 2: spirits that are around us, and they like can have

227
00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,640
Speaker 2: control over us, and the spirits can make people do

228
00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,040
Speaker 2: certain things. So without necessarily saying possessed, it's like everybody

229
00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:48,920
Speaker 2: else is under the influence of these bad spirits, and

230
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,040
Speaker 2: so if you want to be under the influence of

231
00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,360
Speaker 2: those spirits, you can go listen to them. You could

232
00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 2: go do your research and look at things online. And

233
00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,280
Speaker 2: I think I mentioned before how when things had came out,

234
00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 2: they had sad Us down and watched this like scary

235
00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,439
Speaker 2: movie of like you see the writing on the walls

236
00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:04,400
Speaker 2: and you become possessed.

237
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,120
Speaker 4: I think that like concept of like.

238
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:08,720
Speaker 2: Be scared of everybody else because they're all under the

239
00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,600
Speaker 2: influence of the devil, but not us. Yeah, I think

240
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:13,360
Speaker 2: that was super heavy in Chicina.

241
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:17,000
Speaker 1: And also I think we've talked about how, yeah, you

242
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,079
Speaker 1: can listen to the outside noise, And this goes back

243
00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:21,600
Speaker 1: with like the jargon as well as like you can

244
00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,800
Speaker 1: go listen to it, but like if you're doing that,

245
00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,000
Speaker 1: you're introducing these evil spirits into your life. So it's

246
00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 1: like this weird, I'm not trapped here, but like you're

247
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,280
Speaker 1: also understanding that, like, yeah, I'm inviting all of this

248
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:38,280
Speaker 1: outside negative noise. Then I'm just inviting that into my life.

249
00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:41,240
Speaker 1: And then when you're doing that, you're not looking internally,

250
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,440
Speaker 1: You're not saying like what do you want are what

251
00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,960
Speaker 1: is the goals that you have, what's the relationship you

252
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,280
Speaker 1: have with God? It's us versus a bigger picture. And

253
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,520
Speaker 1: with that comes changing the meaning of words, so redefining

254
00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,080
Speaker 1: the meaning of commonly used words to fit the group's

255
00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 1: messaging and ideology. This is used to control the way

256
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 1: followers perceive everyday concepts and getting them to align their

257
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 1: world views further with that of the leaders.

258
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:12,800
Speaker 2: So that makes me really think of man of God

259
00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,280
Speaker 2: with Chicina, because that was used to describe Robert and

260
00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,439
Speaker 2: Robert alone, and like Robert is the man of God.

261
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 2: And then I feel like with other Christian groups they

262
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,400
Speaker 2: talk about being a man of God right, not the

263
00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:27,120
Speaker 2: man of God.

264
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:28,959
Speaker 4: So I think that phrase was.

265
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,960
Speaker 2: Changed to really emphasize like the leader of that group

266
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,679
Speaker 2: to being like the quote unquote one and only man

267
00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,440
Speaker 2: of God was implied there with the changing of that

268
00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:40,920
Speaker 2: word and that terminology.

269
00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,800
Speaker 1: That's something I also find interesting just with like religion

270
00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 1: in general, because I've been to churches where they really

271
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,000
Speaker 1: want to encourage people to read the Bible because the

272
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,400
Speaker 1: Bible is going to speak to each person differently, because

273
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,120
Speaker 1: how you're going to perceive a situation might be a

274
00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,280
Speaker 1: little different than how I would. And that's what makes

275
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:01,559
Speaker 1: good conversation is being like, hey, I actually didn't see

276
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:05,080
Speaker 1: it that way. So yes, when someone is changing words

277
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,000
Speaker 1: to make it the thing and it's so matter of fact,

278
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't allow for a bigger conversation. It doesn't allow

279
00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:18,320
Speaker 1: for interpretation, which in that case using man of God

280
00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 1: as him being appointed that position from a higher being

281
00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,400
Speaker 1: versus being a man of God. It's a really interesting

282
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:26,680
Speaker 1: way to break that down and.

283
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:27,800
Speaker 4: Something that's in all of us.

284
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,360
Speaker 2: And yeah, like you had mentioned further's their ideology of

285
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,520
Speaker 2: like this is the group that's hearing directly from God. Yeah,

286
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,560
Speaker 2: you could go to another church, but are they hearing

287
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:37,480
Speaker 2: directly from God.

288
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it starts to give that whole profit

289
00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,920
Speaker 1: that he has a direct line of communication. But by

290
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,360
Speaker 1: him having that, it's saying that you can't, like you

291
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:49,120
Speaker 1: have to come through me to get to him versus

292
00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,640
Speaker 1: having your own personal relationship, which goes back to the

293
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,040
Speaker 1: US versus them a little bit where it's not about you,

294
00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 1: like you should be having that you know, relationship with

295
00:14:57,720 --> 00:14:58,840
Speaker 1: him directly as well.

296
00:14:59,160 --> 00:14:59,360
Speaker 4: Right.

297
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,760
Speaker 3: Also, what about mentors, like m hmmm, how that has been.

298
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,680
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that's a really good one to bring

299
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:10,160
Speaker 2: up too, because you know, we've I think we talked about,

300
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,920
Speaker 2: like even in our last episode about the acting groups

301
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,160
Speaker 2: and how there are like good people who can be

302
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,440
Speaker 2: really great mentors or teachers of their craft and do

303
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:21,840
Speaker 2: really amazing things for their students. But then you get

304
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:24,880
Speaker 2: into like Chakaina and the mentorship program.

305
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,880
Speaker 4: They're not program, but.

306
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,320
Speaker 2: And the mentorship there, it's like, you know, you're appointing

307
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 2: yourself as a mentor.

308
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,239
Speaker 4: But I'm like, actually, now, looking.

309
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,760
Speaker 2: Back, I'm like, I don't think mentors are supposed to

310
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,160
Speaker 2: do this, And especially when you get into people who

311
00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,800
Speaker 2: have described having their entire financials under their mentor and

312
00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:43,760
Speaker 2: their mentor is the one who controls their money and

313
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:46,840
Speaker 2: writes you off a here's your allowance, but the rest

314
00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:49,480
Speaker 2: is going to be used for us. I don't believe

315
00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:52,200
Speaker 2: there should be any mentorship that has full control of

316
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 2: like finances, schedules, lives in.

317
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,040
Speaker 1: That way, right, And I think in cha kinda the

318
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,240
Speaker 1: mentorship kind of what we were just talking about. Instead

319
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 1: of having that direct relationship with a person, it created

320
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,440
Speaker 1: this hierarchy of you need to go through this person

321
00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 1: who then is at a different level than you to

322
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,200
Speaker 1: then be able to communicate directly with the Man of God,

323
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 1: who then communicates directly with God.

324
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:19,040
Speaker 3: Like it starts to create this hierarchy, but.

325
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,240
Speaker 2: We were also sub mentors too, so a sub mentor

326
00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:22,400
Speaker 2: mentor man of.

327
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:27,360
Speaker 1: God, which then goes into that mentality of like subliminally

328
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,320
Speaker 1: wanting to work for these positions because like in any

329
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 1: job that you would go into, like you could start

330
00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:35,280
Speaker 1: at an assistant level, but you might have bigger goals

331
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:40,400
Speaker 1: to be in a president position or whatever. So you

332
00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,600
Speaker 1: subliminally are saying like, oh, well, I want to be

333
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,680
Speaker 1: better so then I can be a sub mentor, so

334
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,600
Speaker 1: then I can eventually get to the point where I'm

335
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,400
Speaker 1: having those conversations directly. So it is interesting how that

336
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,000
Speaker 1: can all be broken down, right. But yeah, I think

337
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,640
Speaker 1: going into this because we were talking about it earlier,

338
00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:02,480
Speaker 1: there is obviously like extreme circumstances and high control groups,

339
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,240
Speaker 1: but there are a lot of really amazing people that

340
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,919
Speaker 1: use their language and their voices for good and so

341
00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:12,919
Speaker 1: I think it's also important that when we bring up

342
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,359
Speaker 1: words like mentor, there are a lot of positive mentors

343
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,160
Speaker 1: that you can go to, a person that is going

344
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,440
Speaker 1: to have like minded ideas or maybe is more knowledgeable

345
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,320
Speaker 1: that can help you grow in something. So obviously, like

346
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,000
Speaker 1: in this industry that I work in, I've had incredible mentors,

347
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:31,960
Speaker 1: including Wilmer, that have helped me learn this industry in

348
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,399
Speaker 1: a way that then I can come in and say, okay,

349
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,159
Speaker 1: here's how I want to handle it. So the difference

350
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,520
Speaker 1: between a mentor using as like control and then a

351
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:46,920
Speaker 1: mentor using to teach. Right, when we returned the conclusion

352
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,080
Speaker 1: of our conversation, this is forgive me for I have followed.

353
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 2: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's

354
00:17:58,320 --> 00:17:59,680
Speaker 2: the conclusion of our conversation.

355
00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,520
Speaker 1: So kind of breaking down the power of language a

356
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:10,920
Speaker 1: little more, thinking about kind of love bombing and showering

357
00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:16,360
Speaker 1: people new members with a ton of praise and attention

358
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,879
Speaker 1: to elude a sense of belonging and attachment to the leader.

359
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:23,080
Speaker 1: And so this kind of reminded me of you know,

360
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,760
Speaker 1: when Melanie Welking was telling us about her joining Chakaina

361
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 1: and how much Robert loves the sisters and you know

362
00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,720
Speaker 1: it was making them feel very included. Then breaking that

363
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,639
Speaker 1: down even further, everyone talks about this dinner. The dinner

364
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,040
Speaker 1: was this introduction into Chicina and having that sense of

365
00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,879
Speaker 1: community feels like a very inviting environment. And then when

366
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,159
Speaker 1: you start to get praise from the guy that you

367
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,720
Speaker 1: hear everyone talking about, I'm curious if you experienced any

368
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:55,919
Speaker 1: sort of love bombing in Chicina before we kind of

369
00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:57,280
Speaker 1: break this down a little bit further.

370
00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean definitely like the honeymoon phase. So it's

371
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 2: like with Chikina having the attention on you and wanting

372
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 2: to know more and well, what do you do? How

373
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,720
Speaker 2: can we help what you're doing, because that's what we're

374
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:10,160
Speaker 2: here for.

375
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 4: We're good Christian people.

376
00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,720
Speaker 2: I feel like that was kind of my feelings in

377
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,840
Speaker 2: Chicina when I first met everybody of like that we're

378
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 2: here to assist you on what your dreams and goals

379
00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,840
Speaker 2: are and work together for the kingdom, you know.

380
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 4: And so I think that love bombing was.

381
00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,480
Speaker 2: Really big there, and like we see it, I think often,

382
00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,399
Speaker 2: and we talk about like how high control situations can be,

383
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:33,520
Speaker 2: even like a relationship that you have with somebody, a

384
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,160
Speaker 2: romantic partner, And I think that's where when I think

385
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,919
Speaker 2: about language and how love bombing is used in language,

386
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,720
Speaker 2: I see that a lot with like having a high

387
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,880
Speaker 2: control partner who's like love bombing, texting all the time,

388
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,520
Speaker 2: calling all the time, showering you with praises and attention,

389
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,639
Speaker 2: and you're so beautiful, You're this and that most amazing

390
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 2: person in the world. And then somewhere down the line,

391
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 2: it shifts, it switches a little bit, and now you're like.

392
00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 4: Kind of what happened to the love bombing?

393
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,679
Speaker 2: What happened to you calling me good things all the

394
00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 2: time and saying all those good things and wanting to

395
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,640
Speaker 2: go back to that.

396
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,400
Speaker 1: It's hard though, because again, all of these things can

397
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,639
Speaker 1: be used in a negative way when there is also

398
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 1: the sides of Obviously, love bombing is a very specific thing,

399
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 1: but if someone is praising and complimenting you and genuine

400
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:25,000
Speaker 1: about that being able to differentiate these two things, which

401
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,600
Speaker 1: is so frustrating because we talked about this last week.

402
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:32,919
Speaker 1: There are good mentors, there are good teachers and pastors

403
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 1: that are out there wanting to better people. So then

404
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: like when we start to dissect it, I start to

405
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:41,879
Speaker 1: feel conflicted because I'm like, wait, but there are people

406
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:45,959
Speaker 1: that are genuine that you want to compliment a person

407
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,040
Speaker 1: or maybe just want to help people and not have

408
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,960
Speaker 1: a motive behind it. But obviously in extreme circumstances like

409
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 1: love bombing, it could be used to divide. It's like

410
00:20:57,359 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 1: a superiority like what you were talking about earlier. So

411
00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,000
Speaker 1: I think in one of the sermons, he's talking about

412
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:08,199
Speaker 1: how Elon and Jeff Bezos are very successful and with

413
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,560
Speaker 1: success also comes finances, and so he's saying that there's

414
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 1: the scene realm versus the unseen realm, which is more

415
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,360
Speaker 1: of a spirituality, and showing that there is a superiority

416
00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 1: of those in the unseen realm because they are obviously

417
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,720
Speaker 1: building a stronger relationship with God. So if he could

418
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 1: choose between money and success, he would choose you over

419
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:35,280
Speaker 1: success in money and in the outside world, which I

420
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,879
Speaker 1: don't believe. But when you're saying that to a person,

421
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 1: that feels like, Wow, he really cares about us, like

422
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,959
Speaker 1: he would choose us over anything else.

423
00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 4: Which come on, which come on?

424
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 3: Come on?

425
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:49,639
Speaker 4: That's not come on?

426
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's us stretching a little bit because I

427
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 1: feel like that love bombing is like when you're on

428
00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,160
Speaker 1: the outside and you're listening to that.

429
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:58,640
Speaker 3: And knowing, we know too much, we know too much

430
00:21:58,640 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 3: about you.

431
00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 1: Robert call bs on that one, but okay, So lastly,

432
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 1: we have Babbel hypothesis. So this is a study that

433
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 1: shows the length of how much someone speaks is more

434
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 1: effective than the quality of what is said. This one

435
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,480
Speaker 1: I find to be very very interesting, so I'm excited

436
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: to kind of dive into this. So there's no real

437
00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:21,919
Speaker 1: psychological research to this. It's more about that emotional feeling

438
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: that people get. But the idea that people listening to

439
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,640
Speaker 1: someone talk at length are more likely to think everyone

440
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 1: else is listening to all of this, I should too.

441
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,639
Speaker 1: This goes back to what we were talking about with

442
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: politics and with Robert and people that utilize social media

443
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 1: to gain a following and gain an audience. So talking

444
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,439
Speaker 1: excessively also contributes to the leader creating elaborate rules and

445
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: beliefs that go every which way. And the more rules,

446
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: the deeper you're in.

447
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,679
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we saw that a lot with Cha Kainda

448
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,920
Speaker 2: and so interesting hearing about like the length of time,

449
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: so like we've talked about the three hour long sermons

450
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: or were there and he's just talking for a long time,

451
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 2: And I understand that too, of like, well, everybody else

452
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 2: is listening to this, so I should be too, Like

453
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 2: this is there's there's.

454
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,679
Speaker 4: A lot to take in. There's a lot of notes

455
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 4: to be taken from this.

456
00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: That's the I think the idea now that I'm on

457
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 2: the outside looking in.

458
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: And we've heard actually from a few people on the

459
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:25,439
Speaker 1: outside now looking back in that they were like, oh,

460
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: I don't even remember. Sometimes I think it was Marilyn

461
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,160
Speaker 1: and I think Aubrey also spoke to it. You've spoken

462
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: to it where you're like, oh, I don't know, I

463
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: can't even remember. Those sermons were so long that like

464
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,480
Speaker 1: you zone out for a second and then you come

465
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 1: back in, but you're sitting there, You're there, you remain

466
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 1: present in that and because of the if everyone else

467
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: is listening, there must be something in here.

468
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 3: That is good, and I'm sure you're just.

469
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 4: Taking taken from this.

470
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, even when I see some of the sermons that

471
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,480
Speaker 2: get posted online from Alicia's page, I'm like, was I there?

472
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 4: Like I feel.

473
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 2: Like I should have been there at that time, so

474
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 2: like because I kind of remember something like this, but

475
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 2: I don't remember this, right, But that speaks to like

476
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 2: the length of the sermons and how much was being

477
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 2: said at one time, right.

478
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,320
Speaker 3: Someone else was also talking.

479
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: Because we mentioned about the statement and the response that

480
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: you hear and the sermons that are being posted that

481
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: maybe it was you Clea that you call in response

482
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 1: the call response, but that you would be like sometimes

483
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: I would be like yes, yes, and you're like, I

484
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: don't even know what I was like, yes, say, like

485
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: you were just in the in the zone. So I

486
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 1: find that to be very interesting. Researchers also show that

487
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: intelligence is not the most important factor in leadership.

488
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,440
Speaker 4: Isn't that right? You can say that again, I.

489
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: Feel like there's plenty of examples in history just in general,

490
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 2: of people who were in these crazy powerful positions and

491
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: then when you dig a little bit deeper, there was

492
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 2: nothing too that there was no merit to them.

493
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 4: There was no reason for them to be in that position.

494
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely.

495
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 1: I remember reading a comment on one of the sermons

496
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: we're posted, like people are like some of the stuff

497
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 1: he's saying is it doesn't even make sense, Like it

498
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 1: just doesn't sound very intelligent. We can also relate that

499
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,840
Speaker 1: to the President of the United States there like sometimes

500
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: I'm listening to him talk and I'm like, am i

501
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: delulul am I just taking like crazy pills, Like this

502
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 1: doesn't make any sense to me, and people are like

503
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 1: so invested and they are like believers.

504
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 3: I'm like, but listen to him.

505
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,120
Speaker 4: Elon Musk as well.

506
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 2: I think he had like marketed himself as this like

507
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 2: creative genius and like the uh iron man of today,

508
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: but then come to find out like you actually didn't

509
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 2: have any like your brain didn't make that someone else's did,

510
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: and you paid for it. And then now it's it

511
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 2: feels like you're buying your way into our politics.

512
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 4: And it's like.

513
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: We're sitting and hearing him say these things, and like

514
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: you said, it just feels like there's nothing there.

515
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:54,159
Speaker 4: There's no merit to it.

516
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 2: You don't have any any real experience to where you

517
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 2: should be sitting.

518
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,359
Speaker 1: Where you're sitting, and the scary part is it doesn't

519
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: even feel like anymore. It is that he's buying his

520
00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 1: way into politics and that that's doable. I also think

521
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: that confidence can go a long way when someone is babbling.

522
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: So if someone speaks with conviction and confidence, you can

523
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: believe what they're saying. And I think a lot about

524
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 1: the Press secretary, the young woman I don't know her name,

525
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: the way that she shuts down things and makes it

526
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: so matter of fact.

527
00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 4: It's a tool.

528
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 3: It's a tool to kind of.

529
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: Get control of the narrative where if someone challenges she

530
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,760
Speaker 1: just like there's a confidence to her that shuts it down.

531
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: But it still doesn't make that the statement wasn't true,

532
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: but she flips it as if it wasn't. And so

533
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: I think a lot about her because obviously her job

534
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 1: is to protect the crazy statements that all of these

535
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: people are stating. She's doing it in her own way

536
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:56,439
Speaker 1: as well. But confidence, confidence in babbel long forms, Like

537
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: someone can say something with conviction that they really believe

538
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:01,399
Speaker 1: that this is true, and you'd.

539
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,440
Speaker 3: Be like, oh, really, like no way. And so when

540
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 3: you look at.

541
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: Social media and someone's making a statement or they are

542
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 1: talking to their audience.

543
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 3: You can almost believe it.

544
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: As facts, right, Right, goes back to us doing research,

545
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: but actual research before we start spewing out and regurgitating

546
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: things that people are saying. So yeah, all of this

547
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 1: kind of translates beyond cults. Obviously, We've gone into a

548
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,680
Speaker 1: couple different places, and it can move into businesses like MLMs, marketing,

549
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: and even politics.

550
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 3: As we've mentioned before.

551
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: So social media users who are also looking to influence

552
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: and grow their own virtual communities use these tactics as well,

553
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: and persuading folks to listen for lengths of time and

554
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: dive deeper and deeper into their own stories and agendas

555
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: and information and all that stuff. So, you know, we

556
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: were talking a little bit about politics, we were talking

557
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: about social influencers. You know, we were talking about twin

558
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: Flames a couple weeks weeks ago and how they even

559
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: utilized their platform to put out what.

560
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: Their ideals and beliefs were exactly exactly, sobsltly and I

561
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: think it's so interesting when we think about like public

562
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 2: speakers and how with like social media and what social

563
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 2: media landscape is today.

564
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 4: How those are our public speakers Now?

565
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 2: Anybody with a phone which I think, you know, powers

566
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: of the people. Everybody should have a voice, but depending

567
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 2: on what they're using their voice for. Anytime you post publicly,

568
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,159
Speaker 2: you are speaking publicly. You're talking to the public. And

569
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 2: so I think it is really important to go over

570
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 2: these tools and the power of language and the power

571
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 2: of like how it's used and what your intentions are

572
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 2: when you are like either putting out content or trying

573
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: to garner a following or whatever the case may be,

574
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,320
Speaker 2: Like what is the intention there? And then also as

575
00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: a listener being more mindful on that same thing, what

576
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: is the intention here?

577
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,120
Speaker 4: What is what is being told to me? What is

578
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 4: being sold to me?

579
00:28:58,640 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: Why?

580
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: Like why, what is the why behind this post and

581
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 2: behind this statement? Absolutely, and you bringing up power to

582
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 2: the people. There are public speakers that are influential and

583
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: that people like Martin Luther King, Yes, Gandhi that are

584
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 2: utilizing their voices and creating these communities for good. So

585
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 2: going back to voices on social media, because you're right,

586
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 2: it is a new form of public speaking and what

587
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 2: is the intention behind it?

588
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: Are you using it for good? And then just the

589
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: discernment between us to make sure that we understand, like

590
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: we were talking about this last week is like, make

591
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: sure that you're looking into the things that you're really

592
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: trying to get into. If you want to get into community,

593
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: listen to people, read the gut feelings and what's the

594
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: intention behind it, and standing up for what you truly

595
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: believe in. So even if you find yourself into a

596
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: situation that you may not fully agree with anymore, or

597
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 1: that you change your mind, that you do speak up,

598
00:29:58,120 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 1: change your mind.

599
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:00,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's okay change your mind.

600
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 2: I think that's also important too, when we're talking about

601
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 2: people who like, if you say you did post something

602
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: preemptively without doing your proper research, and you're presented with

603
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 2: the opposite and you were like, you know what, I

604
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: think that is true. It's okay to make a statement

605
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 2: and recan't like, hey I was wrong. Yeah this isn't

606
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: necessarily true. I found this out and I have changed

607
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 2: my mind. That's also okay. You don't have to stand

608
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 2: on the false statement.

609
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: I find that to be so powerful. And that's one

610
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: thing that we're not seeing a whole lot of of

611
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: people just saying, hey I was I was wrong and

612
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: after doing more research, after looking into this a little

613
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: bit further after just like reflecting. Maybe I listened to

614
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: a couple different perspectives and I was like, you know what,

615
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: maybe I changed my mind and being able to admit

616
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: that I don't find that to be a weakness at all, Like, if.

617
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 3: Anything, it's the opposite.

618
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, growth I think shows a lot of strength

619
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: with people.

620
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 3: So right there with you. And again, I really.

621
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,200
Speaker 1: Love this particular topic. Soone was brought up to us

622
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: for this episode. I was like, this is so much bigger,

623
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: and I think it's just an interesting conversation to have

624
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: and we should continue having these conversations about the power

625
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 1: of language and the power of using our voices and

626
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: what we want to use it for and what those

627
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: intentions are.

628
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, incredibly powerful stuff important for everybody to

629
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: know and to think about on your own time when

630
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 2: you are interacting with these different mentors, groups, leaders, communities.

631
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: Like to really dive into the language that is being

632
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: used and why it's being used. And you know, I

633
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: love that you brought up that there are examples of

634
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: good out there, so you know, just listen to that

635
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 2: gut feeling, like we say often, and we really appreciate

636
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 2: you guys for listening.

637
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: This has been an incredible episode I Love This, Thank You.

638
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 1: This is Forgive Me For I Have Followed.

639
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 4: Forgive Me For I Have Followed.

640
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: Is a production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and iHeartMedia's

641
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 2: Michael Tore podcast Network, hosted by me Kaliah Gray.

642
00:31:58,760 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 3: And me Jess coss Of.

643
00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: Forgive Me For I Have Followed is produced by Aaron

644
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 2: Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zavos.

645
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, Myself, Warmer Balderama, Leo

646
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.

647
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

648
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

649
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio apps, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

650
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.

651
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 4: See you next week, See you next week,